Trial Rewatch | Menendez Brothers: Defense Expert Dr. Ann Burgess Part 3

[Music] hello hello and welcome to crime in court my name is Heather and we are continuing the rewatch of the 1993 Mena's Brothers trial this is California versus Eric and Lyall Menendez they are two brothers who are on trial for the homicide of their parents Kitty and Jose and um they admit that they did it it is self-defense is what they're saying that's their defense and um an imperfect self-defense is what they're calling it because they were victims their whole lives of kitty and Jose both of them so uh they their claim is that they're doing this or that they did this out of fear for their own lives and for self-preservation which until you've been in a traumatic situation like that you don't know how you're going to behave you don't know how you're going to think you don't think rationally your thoughts are pretty much brainwashed by the individual that you are afraid of so you don't know what's true and what's not so you until you're in that situation you don't know how you're going to react and um and you don't know what you're going to believe you could literally believe that they are going to end your lives and that is what the boys claim that the parent or that Jose said shortly leading up to the homicides so um let's dive back into where we left off we have Dr an Burgess on the stand she is like a criminal mastermind when it comes to like the victimology the forensic she teaches a bunch of classes she's a nurse or had a Nursing degree she was a nurse for quite some time um she's done a lot she helped uh Institute she was like foundational in criminal um the Criminal Minds guys what is it called when they the individuals who um their names are escaping me right now but the individuals who started criminal profiling of violent criminals and coin the names serial life Enders um so that she's instrumental in forensics so I just want to give her a nice intro because she's looking into her and her background I think she's pretty spectacular anyway so I'm going to shrink myself and shut up so we can get started here and she is back on the stand and this is direct uh Examination for the boys and then um we'll have some more redirect and direct and whatnot but here we go how many different studies or research produ projects has the federal government funded for you I've been funded for I believe seven uh grants in the area of child adolescent sexual assault or it's correlates what do you mean by corelates well for example we looked at the issue of AIDS and sexual assault so that would be an an aspect if you will of sexual assault we'd look at um memory in children um you know there you have to in a grant identify what specifically you're going to look at you're talking about memory and children who have been the victims of sexual assaults that is correct so these are various aspects of studying the nature and effects of sexual assault on children that is correct and in addition to doing research in this area have you conducted um first a clinical practice in treating the victims of child sexual abuse yes I have and how many patients have you treated in that practice um certainly hundreds I can't give you a precise number and have you also evaluated uh children adolescen and young adults to determine first if they were the victims of child sexual assault and second what the effects of that was on them yes I have and have you done that um for both private and public uh organizations yes I have have you done that for courts yes I have have you testified on the issue of uh child sexual assault and its effects um in both civil and Criminal Courts yes I have and in criminal cases approximately how many times have you testified on behalf of the prosecution probably 20 to 30 times and how many times have you testified on behalf of a defendant or a juvenile accused of wrongdoing um as many as 5 to 10 times in your uh both clinical practice and in Your Capacity as an evaluator have you ever rejected reports of abuse as unfounded or not credible yes I have and apart from your own personal research and your own clinical and evaluating practice have you uh kept a breast of all the research and writing in the field of child sexual abuse that's been conducted by other interested professionals yes I've tried to as uh best as one can keep up with journals is there a great deal of research and writing in this area over the past 10 years say yes there is now yesterday you talked you gave a number of approxim so this is 1993 so in the past 10 years from that point in time there would had been a ton of research on this it just wasn't well known to the public especially when it came to maleon male encounters people didn't want to believe that that happened but it was happening it was definitely happening in the Menda brother's home and um it's definitely happening still I'm sure uh in many places that we wouldn't even expect so these things need to be talked about and brought to life and I hate that YouTube censors these and tells us that these topics are taboo or whatever because it really needs to be discussed these things need to be talked about in order to stop it you need to shine light on things in order to make things better it's frustrating imately 1.5 million reported cases of child abuse in the United States that is correct and within the field is there a projection of how many unreported cases there are as compared to the reported cases yes there is and what is that projection the projection uh is slightly different for males and females but for females it's projected at one and four for males it's projected U that there's a larger number that don't report and so it's more like perhaps one in five one in as many as nine now that one in four means that only one in four victims report correct and the one in five for males is that only one in five males report abuse is correct and that's abuse uh of all three types that we've discussed emotional psycholog psychological emotional sexual and physical no that tends to be more the sexual abuse is what we're talking about do you have a total number of reported cases of child sexual abuse um I don't have that number of just the sexual abuse but whatever the number the the projection is that only one child out of five males will report it and that's a conservative yes number and is that report a voluntary report or is it a report that's often based on someone else coming for forward and then the child being in questioned yes because of the Mandate of reporting laws in each state more likely to be someone who does report that other than the child himself that's correct are there any statistics kept on on a slightly different issue how many sexually abused children actually voluntarily on their own talk about it want to rephrase question tell other people disclose themselves for the first time well for a child to disclose they're still going to have to then somebody else has to identify it to an authority person for it to actually get reported so because of the nature of children it's very rare that they would walk to a an authority person that would just like walking into a hospital or to a police station that that is rarely happens is there some understanding with respect to the psychology of sexually abused children dealing with their reluctance or eagerness on the other hand to reveal what has been happening to them yes and what is the understanding in that regard well first of all it's very difficult for a child to even come forward to anybody uh and and usually if they're going to disclose spontaneously it's going to be somebody within their caretaking um or School environment when it happens that it's to a caretaker then go through a second if you will filtering system there are a lot of families that may not want to then bring it forward to authorities so there are kind of two gates if you will to really understanding how many children are abused are you familiar with the testimony in this case from Diane vandermolen a cousin of Eric and ly's who indicated that when she was staying in the Family Residence Lyle made a report to her of improper touching by his father and Diane's report to the mother was rejected yes I am aware of that and do the studies show that that that by the way that individual uh Vander Mullen was never allowed to testify in the second trial so the jury never heard about the inappropriate touching and the telling of kitty and kitty just ignored it pushed it off and said no you're wrong so there's that the rejection by a caretaker of such reports is a relatively common phenomenon as What that particular question right you're objecting to the previous question which was just asking whether or not she was aware of the testimony and I objecting to this question like the previous question being in all right uh let me hear the question reread then question [Music] yes question and do the studies show that that the rejection by a caretaker of such reports is a relatively common phenomenon objection sustained to the question to the extent that it referred to the previous uh incident that was recounted in a question and you can rephrase it in a more General sense do the studies show that uh caretakers the non-molesting caretaker frequently reject reports of abuse either by the child or by Third parties reporting it same OB yes in evaluating a child an adolescent or a young adult for a history of sexual molestation is it necessary to examine the entire Dynamic of of the nuclear family yes it is I will get back to that in a moment but I would like you to Define for the jury uh what within the research is called sexual abuse of a child sexual abuse of a child consists of the sexual touching fondling penetration of a child it also includes the photographing of a child that's called child pornography that is a also considered sexual abuse and why is sex between a child and an adult what's wrong with that several things first of all a child is not a consenting partner second it introduces prematurely a sexual component in a relationship third stop you there for a moment are children equipped at 6 or 8 or 12 for sexual interaction with adults no they are not and what happens to them if they're forced into that kind of interaction with an adult it sets into motion a new um an a new phenomenon for them to have to deal with they have to deal with it both cognitively and behaviorally um and that is what is meant by that premature introduction as well as it's not a consenting um factor for the development of the child are there studies that show of what happens to the child's sense of security or sense of selfworth if they're in a situation where they feel they have no control over what is done to their bodies yes this is one of the feelings that children have is this out of control um aspect of the abuse and does that impact their ability to function does that impact their sense of self does that impact their sense of well-being yes it does and in what way it begins to first of all it's very confusing for a child and they have to begin to sift and sort what is going on it detracts them from normal growth and development in which they are supposed to seek out their own activities and achieve their own accomplishments uh out of the not with under the control if you will of an adult so all of these factors then begin to speak to the sense of let stop it right there because what you just said they're not developing the way that they should be developing their own sense of self and self-awareness and autonomy and things like that that a parent should allow children to um prog aggressively achieve on their own is some sense of autonomy but when you've got Jose not only essaying them and causing this problem this disruption in their developmental progress that he's also completely controlling their interests their Sports what they do in their free time everything what they do during dinner the trivia contest during dinner he's controlling all of that so these boys have no sense of selfworth of self- autonomy anything that they're feeling is mostly shame and guilt from what's going on and a dislike for their father which they can't understand really because they love their father but they also really strongly despise him for the things that he's doing so it's it's a very difficult complex Human Experience that needs to be discussed in criminal cases and even if it's not someone's um even if it doesn't have to do with the crime that someone has committed you know let's say someone is abused in their childhood by their parents and then they go on to become a Serial life Ender which happens often we often hear that those types of people had a very difficult childhood they were most likely physically and emotionally abused and that really comes into play as to how they see the world around them and how they develop as an adult so like you can blame Ted Bundy for all the things that he did but his childhood I know he never really spoke about it but I guarantee that the shock of his mother actually you know being his sister and his dad rais or his grandpa raising him and his dad all of that had to have traumatized him his grandpa was very controlling as we know so there had to be something some kind of control situation going on there which made Ted Bundy developmentally stunted and he didn't get to grow up and become a normal human being because of things that went on in that household and this happens and I'm not just say you know it obviously CA doesn't lead to someone turning into that but we need to understand and discuss the Dynamics because it it's very much prevalent as to how people go on to commit crimes so sorry I kind of got off a t on a tangent there but I think this this component right here is really important um inadequacy and their self assuredness and it begins to really erode that component of a child's view of their self-perception okay now were there other factors in describing why sex is wrong between adults and children uh certainly it misrepresents moral standards and that's one of the confusing factors to a child do children know somehow that it's wrong well this want to rephrase the question based on the research um have there been studies that indicate what the children's attitude at various AES is towards these acts being perpetrated on yes they begin to develop the sense of right and wrong that's an important developmental task anyway for children and although it does occur at various ages um that's one factor the other bit of evidence that says that children um react to this is even in very very young children we see the protest Behavior even though it's not an overt protest Behavior so that even at that level even very young children will protest cry so they have a sense that it's wrong it's being done to them yes and they have a sense that they don't like it yes is is there a developmental age when if a child is being molested um they become cognitively aware that what is being done to them is really wrong yes both cognitively and they begin to more actively think about it their whole thinking as they're developing yes there is an age and what is that age and that tends to be around adolesence as they're approaching puberty and do children who are being molested as they approach puberty experience a heightening of distress and and difficulty with coping with what's happening to them yes and it may be account it for various reasons but generally you do see um changing if they've been in an ongoing situation you will see some Chang around puberty and where will those changes tend to manifest themselves in the in the life of a child or where can the changes usually be most noted in the life of the child well changes can be noted in their behavior I mean that's one of the things when you have children that aren't saying what's going on that you look for is their their behavior and in order let's say you're going back and trying to reconstruct a history of abuse what would you look to and let's say you don't have either the immediate family members or perpetrators aren't going to cooperate we don't have that as a resource what would you look to to see if there were changes at this critical age we look in primarily three areas we look in the physical is there anything physically that speaks to some type of symptom we look cognitively that means you look at Medical Records medical records or histories of um stomach aches headaches those kinds of complaints that are are very general but they may show a pattern we look at their cognitive function stomach aches headaches that those were things that um Eric used to complain about all the time he would get stomach aches a lot too and he'd be going to the nurses uh the nurse at school and complaining about his stomach aches and even going to the emergency room or to the doctor about it but um those those emotions that that child is feeling need to come need to manifest in some way and it can turn into a physical manifestation because they don't know how to deal with it especially at that young age um are there grades uh keeping up um in in case that's been one of the areas that has been most focused on and then of course the emotional we look at at any signs from an emotional standpoint how do they view themselves um how are they doing received reports that that a child of that age was behaving in ways that were somewhat mystifying to the people around him you know sudden outbursts not directed at other people but just unexplained outbursts of activity uh great deal of crying with that is that the kind of information that bears on the emotional state of the child oh yes now is there a difference um with respect to the child's perception of thems or with respect to the effects of sexual abuse if it's perpetrated by a stranger versus a member of the family or incest yes there are added issues when it is within the family than it is with a stranger and what are those added issues when it's incest when it's incest there the factors that seem to be most pronounced is is there's a betrayal uh there's a betrayal of the trust if you will but even more so because it's in the family there's a real surveillance aspect that the child is constantly under the surveillance of the parent so their ability to be able to be free with their behavior to get away from is significantly curtailed are there patterns um of incest in other words patterns of behavior in incestuous relationships yes there are and would you describe what those patterns are she is asking excellent questions Leslie Abramson on the defense for Eric she's asking some really detailed questions to get some really good expert answers the patterns generally follow a fairly um usual course uh to sexually abuse a child uh which is a conscious planned action by someone they have to have access to the child and in this access if you will there is what's called an entrapment there is a way that the child is is pulled in so access and entrapment and then there is the pressure on the child to begin the sexual activity and what what happens at this point is again can be specific to the child I mean it isn't the same that part is not necessarily the same the pressure part is not NE well the pressure is but what actually the sexual part is going to be different may may vary so that you have pressure sex and then you have the secrecy in order for an offender to be successful he is going to want to or she is going to want to continue the sexual activity so there has to be a way that the child is secure there some way to secure the secret so they can continue so those are three major aspects of pressure sex and secrecy and is there um is there an aspect or a facet characteristic if you will of children that makes it relatively easy for them to be entrapped by a parent say in a relationship like this yes and what is that aspect well the first of all the abuser is an adult and that by itself implies uh dominance in a relationship adults are obeyed and give orders and tell children what to do and so what happens in the abuse situation is that the adult generally trades on the ambivalence of the child ambivalence is very much a part of of a child as a child grows up of their problem solving and there is a very careful attempt to try to break this internal resistance and to work on that ambivalence now what do you mean by ambivalence ambivalence about ambivalence means of two minds doesn't it it right ambivalence about what ambivalence about right and wrong this is one of the major developmental aspects and so what is the child knows or believes that adults know what is right and so even though there's this pull or this tug against what is wrong this is what the uh there's generally by the abuser an attempt to say this is all right or this is is okay to do and that uh can even be said verbally or it can be put into a more elaborate type of explanation but the abuser has to work on this ambivalence part do abusers um apart from trying to convince the child that it's okay or it's all right uh typically make the sexual encounter seem like a form of love or special attention oh yes that might be one of the techniques used yes in this particular case you did evaluate Eric Mendez to determine whether or not he had been sexually molested by his father yes I did and are you familiar with his Recollections of how the abuse began yes I am and in evaluating that did you characterize certain activities by Jose Menendez as constituting this access and entrapment phase yes I did and what behaviors on the part of Jose Menendez fit this pattern of access and entrapment well one of the things that Jose Menendez did was to begin the abuse in in a more normal context for example um after swim swimming sessions or something wiping down the child that's a way to be able to get access to a child's body in a way that is not considered out of the ordinary and it even can be perhaps done in a public place uh then within again the context of the swimming which is an important part of this uh his son's life is to talk about how to reduce tension before a swim meet or before some sports activity and this is precisely what he would do he said this is the way to reduce tension and he would begin these massages so for this uh his son it did not appear out of the ordinary it seemed to be make sense to him and so on that level if a child is being told because it was a progression this she's such a great witness I can't even believe that the jury had an issue I mean we really have a serious problem in this country where we just any defendant on trial for anything they're guilty the media portrays them as guilty the country thinks they're all guilty Brian cerg Karen Reed you know like all these people that uh Richard Allen in Deli all these people that still haven't even been convicted of a crime but the country goes oh they're guilty maybe not so much Karen re just the anti- Karen readers but you know what I'm saying so before that even before that before we went to trial and people are you know she's guilty there's no doubt about it it's like it there's a serious serious problem in our country where the guilt the accused are judged and considered guilty before they even go to trial and it's a problem and that's I think that was a big problem in this case is my point and with such great witnesses that they have for experts I cannot believe that like that bias and that prejudice they had to have been just Prejudice somehow some way their beliefs and thoughts meant that these boys were making something up or they were exaggerating or whatever but no child is going to make this stuff up a child doesn't know what this stuff is I mean you can say okay they were older but at this point we already have the proof now in the letters that this was going on that he sent to his cousin and um we also know the guy from mudo came forward and claimed that Jose essayed him in the manda's home while they he was over there for like some dinner or something and it happened a couple times I think I don't know I don't remember the details specifically so don't quote me on that it was a while ago that I watched the documentary with him uh I think it was on peacock um it was good documentary with the Menda uh with the Mano guy who was claiming as a I can't remember his name sorry but you know how many Bo young boys went through the band of manuto and they were all like once they reached 18 they were out of the band so it was like a uh what can I can I call him aedo am I going to get struck for this move this video is not going to get money anyways so whatever okay so pedos you just you know it's like ped's dream you just keep replenishing young boys over and over again especially when you're the record producer or record exec whatever he is it's disgusting is what it is that something is normal and not out of the ordinary they're less likely to have protester resistant behaviors yes and also if the behavior if the activity does not hurt and does not seem uh it might even feel good as rubbing uh often does on a young male so then you get the child hooked into the pleasure part of yes now what was the next um with respect to when this escalated into sexual touching are you familiar with the things that hose Menendez said to normalize this Behavior to his son all right again uh ladies and gentlemen this witness is relying upon information provided to her either uh by reading transcripts of the testimony already heard in this court that you've heard testimony Witnesses or uh other information provided to her outside of the courtroom in some fashion you um ultimately are the judges of The Facts as to what happened and also as to whether the events upon which the witness uh relies actually occurred she is assuming these things occurred for the purpose of rendering opinions here and giving you her opinions about certain matters you are ultimately the judge of the events is where these things actually happen is this necessary isn't this like a normal jury instruction anyways you're to believe you know it's it's up to you to decide The credibility of each witness why is he putting this in here like a special announcement in between her testimony to be like well she might not be telling the truth the boys might be making it up I think that's really prejudicial prejudicial right there I don't I don't like it and also the judge of the ultimate issues in this case right you may proceed well could I have a question we read some my witness can answer it joh all right if uh court reporter can find it question about what was the next with respect to when this escalated into sexual touching are you familiar with the things that Jose Mendes said to normalize this Behavior to his son yes okay and what were those things uh the next things that the uh Jose Menendez would say is that uh this is an addition to um how you reduce tension he would put it in context of what the Romans would do what the soldiers would do so he added that level if you will of uh because this was important to be strong and to fight and and so forth so that was the next aspect of the when it moved from uh the touching massages into U more sexual oral U type of massages all right now you've heard what the judge just said to the jury um you have read all the testimony in this case haven't you yes I have and you've also interviewed Eric Mendez have you not yes I have how many hours of interview time did you spend with Eric Mendez about 50 and is 50 hours of interview time low medium or high for an evaluation for sexual molestation it's a high number ordinarily how much time is spent interviewing a child and adolesent or a young adult to determine a history of sexual molestation um I don't know the actual average but certainly under 10 hours oh wow and did you spend 50 hours with Eric Mendez because you weren't sure of what he was telling you or because you wanted to be thorough or for some other reason I wanted to be thorough did you also read the St there was probably that many instances of issues that went on in that household that it took that long for Eric to really Define what was going on in that house and give her a full picture of everything statements of witnesses who testif yes I did did you read the statements of witnesses who have not yet or aren't going to testify yes I have and when you do an evaluation of a child or a young adult or an adolescent to determine whether or not they were the victim of child sexual abuse uh do you formulate an opinion at some point during the evaluative process as to whether what they're telling you is true yes I do and did you form that opinion with respect to Eric Mendez yes I did and what is that opinion objection iny suain do you accept as credible what he told you same obje same objection and same objection is sustain I'd like all right you make seat all right uh Dr burges did you after examining all the information that you testified to I just wanted to say I love how she stands her ground against this judge she does not back down on him she's great and you examed all the records the school records the medical records all of that did you know yes I did and after your 50 hours of interview with Eric Mendez did you formulate an opinion as to whether or not he was a person who was seually molested as a Child and Adolescent yes I did and what is that opinion and my opinion was that he was and although we'll get to it in detail later did you also form the opinion that this molestation had um effects that continued through the time of the killing of his parents yes I did now we were going back actually though to the uh description of the pattern of incest and I think you uh addressed yourself to the notion of access and entament and I was going to ask you what evidence you evaluated on the issue of isolation and you talked about secrecy is isolation also a part of the secrecy part of the pattern yes that is one of the ways that they the abuser will try to ensure the the secrecy okay and what information did you receive uh that indicated that the pattern in this case fit the pattern of incest cases with respect to isolation and secrecy well in terms of the isolation there was uh strong evidence that these uh Sons uh and certainly uh Eric Menendez was kept from even developing friends he was kept in such a um active um Sports type uh Not only was he kept active that way but he was told by the father that it was not something that you did it was dist rting to have friends so that's really very important in terms of the message that goes to the child and something that's a very normal part of growing up especially in latency in 789 is when you use the term latency yeah age seven eight and nine this is generally the time when children should be developing peer friends friends of their same age were there other aspects um of the way this home was run other aspects of their interaction in the community which pointed towards uh isolation besides the uh discouraging of friendships right that was certainly just within his own friendship area but certainly with relatives uh it was controlled as to when they would get there what they would do when they would have to leave uh everything was very carefully orchestrated by the father so that there was um no uh possibility that they would have a lot of contact with family members or Community or any of the other outside agencies and is that important when molestation is occurring with relatively young children to ensure secrecy yes because it starts Young and the message then is learned and it's followed and the child very often just obeys it and thinks that this is actually normal is it safer for incest perpetrators to allow children more contact with other people if they're older and have been keeping such a secret for many years well they generally don't like to have any more contact than they have to because uh the danger that the secret may be revealed so there is is there a pattern therefore of always being vigilant to keep a child isolated from meaningful context when that child was being sexually abused yes now you're familiar with the history in this case that the sexual activities of Jose Menendez um escalated over time yes I am is that unusual in incest situations or common no it is not unusual and can you explain why it's understood that is a typical pattern well the typical pattern is to escalate uh for several reasons one the activity that starts out is often what's kind to call the seduction aspect of the grooming aspect is to secure the uh child as a partner if you will uh to the activity but that may not be what the abuser ultimately wants to do so there the escalation then usually gets into more Mutual kinds of activity and it it it uses the base if you will what the abuser does to the child to then ask the child to do it to him and and the same kind of um thought process goes on well if I'm making reducing tension in you I need you to reduce tension in me kind of thinking and this is very understandable to a child and so that usually begin from the what is done to the child then it develops into the mutual participation and actually once that happens then the child very much is really locked in because he is now doing to the adult uh something and so his thinking now is I am participating so that's an important cognitive as we call it a cognitive um reasoning for the child Al yet it's wrong but that's the way it happens so that makes it somehow feel wrer to the child or that the child is more I'm trying to understand why the notion that the child is participating locks it in even more do they feel guilty that they're participating or or does it normalize it that they're doing these things it really normalizes it and they again you don't you have to look at the conversation that occurs sometimes an abuser will say um it will make this relationship quite special I guess that's the other important part is that the child now feels what he's doing with the adult really is very important to the adult too and was there evidence that that way of characterizing it to hold on to the child was done in this case yes what evidence was that well the evidence was that's what the content what was verbally said that's what I I heard was said uh that the participation was I need some tension reduced I've done it to you I want you to do it to me I was addressing it to the no of specialness oh the special relationship absolutely um again on several reasons children want to be special to their parents and sometimes children who aren't special in the way they necessarily want to be will take anything in terms of being special that's a very driving force a child in any relationship and remember Jose treated Lyall like he was the Golden Boy The Golden son the you know the firstborn the amazing Prodigy and then Eric was basically ignored until it was time to you know uh Jose to go in Eric's bedroom and spend hours in there doing God knows what so that was like she just said that was the child is looking for that approval and acceptance from the parent and that's the only time he got it I'm sure from Jose at least between child and parent and that being the case in those situations where a child doesn't otherwise feel special to the to the parent is it more likely that that child will I use the word Loosely value the sexual relationship because it gives him something from the parent that he wanted yes is it more likely that child being told he's special within the sexual relationship will keep the secret of the relationship to perpet it yes very uh not only perpetuated but to also protect the father or protect the adult in this case um is there evidence from a number of witnesses that Eric Menendez was definitely not treated as a special person in the family by the father in other regards than sex yes Bally now apart from making such a relationship seem special and desirable to the child are there other ways that incest perpetrators uh preserve their secrecy yes there are and what are those ways typically well sometimes um uh incest perpetrators have to threaten the child to keep the secret uh okay threaten with what well they threaten with uh withholding um aspects they can with threaten to withhold love but they can even threaten to harm the child um those are statements that one hears from children to actually threaten something terrible is going to happen if that secret comes not just the child but other people like well if you tell anybody I'm going to hurt your mother or whatever you know someone close to that child it's like if you tell anybody you know I'll end your mother's life and then you're terrified to say anything because it's between you and that person and you can't go to the person that you seek comfort from or whatever I'm not saying he saw Comfort necessarily from Kitty cuz God knows she didn't really give it but um in any instance I think you get the points some like I'll tie you to a chair and beat you to death yeah those are some but it can even escalate to more severe uh threats to seriously injure a child Beat to Death pretty Ser be to Death kill a child yes kill anybody you tell yes yes very often that that's a factor where other people will be threatened so that makes the child feel very responsible not only for his own may not even be thinking of his own welfare but that the welfare of others whether that be who wh whomever the adult has named in the threats okay and are there other behaviors by the adult that can ensure that the child keeps the secret besides the threat of violence actually doing violence that's often done doing violence related to telling or any kind of violence any kind of violence because that then has the model has been set that the ACT has been done and that's not an illogical connection for a child to make between he said something would happen he has done something so therefore if I ever reveal the secret very serious consequences will await me in other words if someone threatens to do something violent and then actually acts violently for whatever reason that sort of reaffirms the the the what's the word um credibility of the threat if you will oh yes yes now how is in the typical incest pattern how is the um behavior of the adult interpreted by the child well the behavior of the adult uh still is interpreted primarily by the fear the fear reaction uh if I don't do what he says something awful will happen and so there's great Conformity there's great compliance now we had talked yesterday when you were discussing the body's instinctive and survival fear mechanisms that sexual abuse of children engenders a fear reaction even in the absence of violence or threats of violence yes and oh why is it that that seems to be true well why without the actual threat of violence what seems to occur or what clearly occurs is the age of the child the helplessness of the child and that is what is overwhelming by the adult's Behavior Uh you don't have to have a weapon or something to uh clearly threaten a child just one size and and uh that factor is clearly overwhelming to the child and the fact that the child is not the initiator that things are being done to him yes is there cognition in young children that they're being treated like an object um I mean strike that is that what's frightening that that children feel they're being treated like an object not like a person is there information in the literature that part of this fear is based on lack of control yes and is there cognition on the part of children I mean Express the notion that they're being treated like a thing and things break or things can get hurt as compared to people yes there is in the literature oh wow when you uh interviewed Eric Mendez did he describe to you a particularly disturbing aspect of that type of sex that he calls rough sex yes did he describe to you a difference in the way that his father would look or act during those acts that involved the pins and the needles and the pain infliction yes he did and how did he describe that to you he described his father's face um that seemed to be one very focal point um and his whole demean well actually his whole demeanor and his behavior um certainly in terms of of what he would do was a different uh aspect than what the previous types of activities have been with and how was it different if you can recall well he was very angry and during this period of time one of the things that he was trying in a way to normalize was to say uh he had seen him uh react to getting a shot and so he wanted to really toughen him up and say that you must stay in pain and so it was in that context that he would become very very aggressive very angry very violent his face his behavior those were were the things that he described to me Eric manes did and did Eric in describing this to you indicate how it made it him feel um me apart from being fearful because he was being aggressive and violent did he talk to you about this notion of being an object yes he did and what did he say in that regard the to be he he actually described that he realized that that his part in this meant nothing that this he was just having these things done to him and that it was very much exciting and um giving a reaction to the father and he his part in this did not matter and did he indicate that that that understanding caused him a new level of distress or disturbance yes because that now moved him from this seeing himself as a participant with the special relationship that uh now he wasn't that special that maybe that aspect was clearly a um a conflict for him okay in the studies of the effects of uh sexual molest on molestation upon children um have there been I'll strike that in the studies geared at the effects of sexual molestation on children this chronic fear response that you were talking about yesterday on Friday um how has that shown up as a SYM and with what frequency and right obviously as to the victims yes may answer in terms of the alarm Center and the fight flight what we see or what I heard in the situation was the actually the numbing part in which there was compliance uh with the activity between the father and the son second there was the uh flight part was quite clear in terms of the putting his mind on other things uh daydreaming uh dissociating his mind wandering thinking of other things and then in the fight aspect there was the crying the protesting there's a lot of vomiting uh when at certain levels of the sexual activity and there was also uh symptoms that he described in terms of the nightmares and are nightmares a symptom of a chronic anxiety syndrome in a child yes well nightmares suggest that there is content from the day that is being processed and reaches a level of memory I.E the nightmare guess my question is though it based on the research do sexually molested children tend to have this chronic heightened fear response yes I do okay and did you find symptoms of that The Chronic heightened fear response um in Eric yes I did and was that based just on your interview with him or on reviewing all of the information from all the sources you consulted I really came from reviewing all of the material uh that I could possibly find as well as interviews with now you said that when a child is in one of these situations um they react to the fight flight mechanism with is it fair to say adaptive behaviors yes they do if if there is long-term incest long-term sexual molestation in the family uh do the children tend to adapt or accommodate in some way to the abuse yes I do and in adapting does that make it all okay no that doesn't make it okay it just means the child can go along with u the activity and is that given the situation of children the isolation and the and the lack of resources is that a way to survive yes it is now you indicated earlier that it's estimated that one in F only one in five of the boys report sexual molestation is compared to one in four of the girls what is the understanding as to why there is that disparity it is much harder for young males to come forward and to report and one what that seems to be related to is is the belief or the mythology if you will of male sexuality there is this belief that males regardless of age are supposed to be able to manage and to perhaps even enjoy any type of sexual activity and that they should not complain when there is any type of sexual activity now you called that a myth yes is it true to little boys like being molested in a way that little girls do not little boys and little girls uh equally do not like to be molested are you saying that there's a societal notion that boys should not complain or that boys can manage sexual encounters of any kind yes and in viewing it from a socialization or peer group standard um does the liter literature suggests that it is more difficult particularly for an adolescent boy to admit a same-sex molestation than it would be for an adolescent girl to admit molestation at the hands of the male yes it's much harder for an adolescent male yes is there some perception among the children that that were interviewed in these studies in the research that was done that boys expect less sympathy from others if they are abused yes they expect and they usually receive less sympathy why do they receive less sympathy again it it has to do with the way the the person that's receiving the information and the beliefs that are in society are generally held by many many people so that does not just because someone is a professional or in the in the system that is hearing that um they still carry with them their own beliefs yeah we touched upon whether or not uh children in these situations of ongoing sexual abuse particularly in incest situations uh tend to tell yes if if is there some indication in the literature that if a child does mention it voluntarily that it happens in a particular context generally it does yes and what is the context where it happens if at all if it happens it's going to be more of a subtle kind of telling children don't uh just come out and say words like I've been molested or I've been abused there generally is a testing if you will to see what other people's reaction are going to be so that the subtle message generally is there uh and a lot is going to depend on the age of the person revealing whether they're children whether they're adolesence now with respect to adolesence I think that you've indicated that there is some notion at the developmental age of puberty or around that time uh where the child is very morally confused about what's happening yes and confused about whether it's what right or wrong or normal or abnormal what is the confus because this is generally the time when the whole moralistic aspect is being um looked into by the child or developed by the child so that things that are right and wrong become important to the child does Normal and abnormal is that important for a child in the abusive family in general yes it is and are you familiar with the uh testimony in this case U concerning Eric's approach to his cousin his younger cousin and the information that he relayed in the questions that he asked of his cousin yes I am and how do you assess that information as compared to the histories of other children who have been studied my assessment of that statement uh shows that it's fairly consistent with other statements I've heard that speaks to the child trying to see how normal usual certain kinds of behaviors are so a child or an adolescent will actually ask um does such and such happen in your family that is not unusual in incest situations where the child really believes that everything that's going on is quite normal and that it happens in everybody's family on the other hand you're questioning that at that age yes that's the age that is from a normal developmental standpoint speaking of Normal and abnormal I'd like to put two pictures on the board this previously that what I make of them is this is what's important about that is that the faces are not there that just the uh genitals are clearly being the focus of the photograph and that obviously these are uh these are males you understand one left yes yes I understand that and testimony that their father time to yes I am is that she said something it's very hard to hear her she's like did you hear the testimony of somebody I don't know and they testified thattime Jose would take pictures of the boys and she said yes yes it is is that the kind of photograph that a normal parent would take just to have a momentum child's developmental years uh no that is not generally the way parents would take u pictures that in in the studies of the children who have been molested in the the adolesence young adult talk to to the children Express why it is they don't as a world tell people about that yes and is this information now generally accepted in the community of those research in child Abes as commonly held beliefs on the part of children that prevent them from freely discussing what's happening yes um and what are what is the mindset of the children what reasons why they don't there are a variety of reasons uh one of the most important ones is they don't feel they're going to be believed uh this goes back to how they have been um treated if you will in the abusive situation that may be one of the threats that is given to the child uh no one's going to believe you so don't even bother thinking to tell that that often is a clear message given by the abuser even if that message isn't given do children tend to vote to do children think that in a spitting contest if you will with a grown-up that they're going to be believed with a grownup yeah no they don't Adult World words are generally honored more so than children's words okay and does this notion of not being believed pervade the life of these children yes okay what's the next reason well the next reason um in an incest situation is the possible uh Exile from the family this is very very threatening to a child family is or parents are his world and the possibility that that will be taken away even though the abuse is part of of the U complaint is very very difficult for a child to even consider telling okay and what's another reason why children don't tell oh again another reason is the uh shame that it might bring to the family if this is a family that has uh strong values that one does not dishonor the family that's going to be a major factor now that takes a certain age for child to conceive that going forward might cause that yes so that would be for older children yes okay what well the other that also fits in with the belief is that the um child's going to be punished for telling that the child's going to be blamed for telling uh children are blamed on many many things uh regardless of whether it's their fault or not so that's not unusual for a child to believe that they will be blamed as if it was all their fault that's right and is it common for children in these situations to in fact once they realize it's wrong it's not normal to blame themselves oh yes that happens not only because it's kind of a a logical iCal thinking pattern but very often that's the message that is given to them and it when it gets into the mutual participation that becomes even a stronger Factor so they think it's all their fault somehow yes maybe there's something wrong with them that's why this is happening to them yes maybe they asked for it yes do incest perpetrators typically tell children you asked for this or I know you want this or words like that yes those are uh those are commonly been reported in the literature yes and do they do they tell children now that things happen it's because you did X and Y and that's why you brought it on yourself right not only it on yourself but what you do is going to affect the whole family and will disintegrate the whole family and that's a very um powerful kind of message that a child is not going to do something that would in fact have that happen in incest situations do the perpetrators tend to glorify or emphasize the importance of family more so than in Healthy Families yes they do in this particular case are you aware of the evidence totally unrelated to abuse from people who talked about how Jose and kitty Mendez glorified their family had Notions of Menendez superiority yes I am um and how would you rate uh this family mythology if you will about the importance of family as compared to other families that have been studied in a family where family per se is highly emphasized as a critical and important component in a child's life is a child even less likely to bring disgrace less likely to break ranks with the family yes they are now you've talked about now that um children are afraid they won't be believed they're afraid of Exile from the family they're afraid of punishment they're afraid of being blamed yes uh they're afraid of being shamed to the family yes is there also a notion of being ashamed to talk about such things oh yes the personal shame is a very large Factor especially as the child increases in age as it's get gets older so that becomes more inhibiting the older they get yes now when you um when you evaluate a a person and a family situation uh to determine whether or not incest has occurred um what kinds of things do you look for to guide your evaluation you don't just believe everything you hear do you no you don't just believe everything you read either no all right what is your protocol if you will for evaluating complaints of sexual abuse well there's several factors that go into it first of all is the context in which you are hearing a statement no I'm going to stop you at every one of these things so you can explain as you go along other because I lose track otherwise what do you mean by the context well the context depends on how the statement comes in in other words is this a self-report is this because somebody else reports it where is the child is the child in the home uh or the the person where are they and and and just the general factors of of how why I'm there perhaps even talking with the child okay what's the second well the second has to do with consistency as the as the person begins to give a history you start looking at the consistency and consistency can be matched with other information that one has a corroboration kinds of things but um it can be looked at over time too if you're able to talk with someone over time if you're able to talk with someone for 50 hours over how many occasions did you see different occasions did you see her five or six uh weeks and months apart oh yes and uh do you then when you go back and you interview again see if there's consistency between you with respect to the facts over the course of all the interviews oh yes you when I go back over it it we'll ask it a different way try not to ask questions the same way so that I can see what answers are given okay and when you say the consistency of the history internally consistent on the one hand yes internal as well as external and when you talk about external consistency okay let me ask you this in how many cases of child sexual abuse that you have that you are familiar with is there an eyewitness to the sex very rarely and does that prevent experts such as yourself from rendering an opinion as to whether or not the molestation occurred no so when you say you look outside I can't believe she objected to that but of course you know it hurts her case that was an ouch objection for corroboration corroboration means something that supports a statement of fact that's correct okay what are you looking for since you're not going to find people hiding under the bed right you're going to look for possible uh statements from people that uh they they make that may in fact support something you certainly will look if at all possible for photographs that's one of the uh corroborating pieces that is looked for in in a do you look to the personality characteristics modus operandi if you will of the abuser well then you move into the family and you look at the family Dynamics which of course are going to involve parents if you're able to you look at as much information as is available regarding the family okay let's say no one now in this particular case there there was a prior statement that Eric Mendez made when he was about 13 to his cousin Andre that's correct and there was also a prior statement that L Menendez made when he was about eight to his cousin Diane that's correct uh do you always have that kind of coroporation in an investigation and evaluation no so apart from that for the moment um did you formulate uh some picture in your mind of how Jose Menendez dealt with his children generally yes I did and some notion of the family Dynamic who had the power who is available to these children for good and for bad if you will yes I did do you evaluate the sexual abuse history that you received in terms of whether it is consistent with the other behaviors attitudes states of mind that you have learned about the abuser yes you do and do you also see if it's consistent with the family Dynamic so that the child's report of feeling isolated or being unable to extricate fits into the the larger picture of the family yeah you're trying to look for the match between what is said with with this more external type of of information yes okay so under the notion of consistency with other information is information about the the character and behaviors of every member of the family used uh as a if you will a sounding board for the specific information about the moest station yes it is now what else do you look to besides context where the statement is made and under what circumstances consistency in the telling of the history what else you look for if there have been any symptoms of the child again if it's a situation where it's occurred over time you want to see if there's anything that can be located regarding uh school activity peer interaction whether there been any physical symptoms whether there's been any trips to the doctor for unexplained injuries whether there's been any uh history of of symptoms even though they may be minor now you can't say with certainty can you that if a child for example has concentration problems in school that he's been sexually molested no you can't even say if a child is suicidal or depressed that they've been sexually molested no you can't but if on looking back uh where a person is telling you they had a long history of violent sexual abuse if you saw Happy go-lucky Well performing highly concentrated perfect kid would that be important for evaluation yes it would would that be an absence of symptoms yes it would be and did you in both the records and in testimony here find symptoms in Eric menendez's childhood that were though not proving it consistent with a child who is being abused in some fashion yes I did are there in fact you said there was one one thing you look at is unexplained injuries yes are you familiar with Eric's medical records going back to 1977 yes I am is there a particular entry on those medical records that is an unexplained injury yes there is and is it something that you noted in your assessment yes I did and what was that particular injury this that was the injury that was reported on an emergency room visit of injury to the throat and we talk about the you're talking about the outside no I'm talking about the inside of the throat FX and do you recall what type of injury that was was it a cut or was it a bruise it didn't have precisely what it was it had the statement that it was hurt and um and I believe there was some um observation obviously there was some observation there that was recorded it did not say what had done it uh I could find final history as to what had caused the injury in other words the adult who brought the child to the doctor did not say how he got this injury to the back of his throat speculation part of Ang raise the question is that you didn't see that anybody had get had told the doctor how this injury to the back of his throat had been inflicted that's correct are you referring to any entries in the notes the entry in the medical record want you rephrase it that way though okay well based on the medical record obviously you weren't there correct right and based on the medical record there's no indication of anyone either Eric Mendez himself or who whichever grownup we assume took him there indic how this injury occurred that is correct now are you able with such sketchy information to formulate a fixed opinion as to how that injury occurred no is such an injury though to the back of the throat uh consistent with a penile insertion in a child's mouth that could be one possibility now is there also when you do an evaluation are you also um interested in how detailed versus how vague uh the report of the subject under study is yes and what kinds of well is detail better than vague yes it is okay and what kind of details uh do you look for um we'll just say yeah well you look at uh the statements that the person makes the language that they use uh you also look at the AA or the emotion as the person is talking and you look at a number of things and you look at it uh not only at one time but over time okay I wanted to stick with details if I could for when you say the language that they use the language of what the language doesn't match the actual age uh that the child would have been to describe it do they have their own terms for it versus do they just say well I was molested or I was and give you a more um adult type of terminology is it typical that children uh label this behavior in some way unique to themselves yes they generally do and is it typical that when these children even when they're older talk about these acts in the terms that they used when they were children when they happened to them yes they generally do and did you in interviewing Eric Mendez become familiar with a particular language that he used yes I did and what was that um I mean what not the specific words but what kind of particular language were you interested in um he had if you will had had described at more or less the phases one was where it was nysx one was a type of um um posture that he had to assume he called that the knees then he called a period of time when it was dark sex uh so that these were important factors in his language in describing it he would have go into more detail of course around each one but he had that uh as as the phases if you will now you um and that's fairly typical of persons who were uh sexually abused as children to have coined this special language yeah they all have their own special language but they they generally can give you some way that they have thought about it in their mind it shows that they have processed the information yeah that's the information processing part that we look for yes now did Eric Mendez ever say to you to Dr Burgess uh I was molested I was sexually abused and I have the following symptoms and this is what's wrong with me anything like that no he didn't did he try to sell you that these things had happened to him objection did he ever tried to persuade you in interview that uh that he had been molested spe question did he used the language of persuasion now you really should believe me or I hope you believe me or this really happened or anything like that no he did not all right let's take our recess uh we'll resume that minut hour your examination of the witness thank you we were talking Dr bgus about the things you look to in evaluating statements of abuse and uh with reference to the information you received about uh Eric Mendez you had said that the language or the terminology that he used was significant to you yes I had were there particular descriptive words that he used that had particular significance to you yes and what were they and some of those words included uh the nice sex What's significant about nice sex well what's significant about nice sex is that many children uh might not describe it or many persons may not describe it that way but in his mind that was a special way that he described it uh unusual didn't have to say it was nice uh could have said a variety of other kinds of um descriptors if you will well let's say hypothetically someone was going to make up a sexual molestation history is it likely that they would use a positive term to describe it no and nice as a positive term nice as a positive term and what was it that Eric was uh telling you was nice why did he call it nice nice had to do with with Father's attitude towards him and the way that he perceived it that this was a nice phase that father seemed to um not be angry with him to be happy with him and that made him happy and this is uh of course this was in the beginning of the process if you will do you recall that he also described nice sex as also occurring later which was very long and protracted and mutual yes that is all that part when he gets from the what is done to him to moving into what he must now do to the father and did you note in hearing his descriptions of the different kinds of sex that Nix seemed most to be characterized by an absence of anger and an absence of violence yes and this is contrasted with other types of phases that he describes uh did you reflect on or evaluate what the emotional impact on Eric Mendez would have been to have to participate in this nice sex which has a lot of mutual behavior when he's an adolescent yes and and what was your evaluation of the significance of that the evaluation of that would um have been a very difficult thing and this is something that um the behavior does change by the father and even takes on a whole different direction if you will and intent by the father but what's the impact of of being say 16 and and spending these protracted sessions of mutual sexual acts with your father at 16 yeah well that's very hard for a 16-year-old absolutely now you talked about um all right so nice was a significant term were there any terms he used that were significant from the standpoint of trying to evaluate whether this in your opinion this happened well he would describ on some of the more specific aspects of the abuse he he described that and he gave what we would call sensory responses of how it felt to him what he did Etc so that's a part of the language of of what his response would be getting sick sorry if you receive a report of sexual Mo molestations that's devoid absent um detail such as spec unique or idiosyncratic language or doesn't reflect the sensory there was the feelings of the child both physically and emotionally or um doesn't have much detail about what actually happened okay right how do you evaluate that kind of information we put a different evaluation on that because that would suggest that it was just something that uh was being said did not have the what we call the backup material uh to indicate especially the sensory response that children generally are going to if have that sensory response so that would be less reliable you think yes and when Eric Mendez described to his answer responses were they consistent with reports of other children well they were consistent with reports of other children but they certainly were also consistent with what he was describing had happened so in other words he was telling you how it felt in a way that made logical sense yes now when he was describing you have described I think you have used the word rape yes did he ever use that no he never used those terms he did not use technical terms and when he was describing penetrative acts do you recall or acts that constituted intercourse do you recall the term that he used for that um it was not rape it was um I can't recall the exact term did he just use the word sex sex he that's that's right he didn't use any particular um term for that and if someone uh reported to you that that um there had been an act of what we technically would call sodomy at the age of 11 or 12 uh and called it rape or sodomy would that be suspicious it would be to use a technical term at that age yes now was there also um a validation if you would of the information you were receiving U from Eric himself in the other information you received from other sources concerning Mr Menendez yes there was and what was that well the information that was received from other sources uh confirmed the if you will the Persona or the way in which um Jose Menendez ran his life ran his business as well as Ran's family and can you recall what what specific details or aspects of the sexual abuse uh revealed personality or character traits in Jose mendas that were verified from other aspects of his life well there were certain certain factors one is certainly the control and the need for dominance that certainly was pervasive in other reports but also the derogation the humiliation the kind of Acts that were done to him were very humiliating uh and that certainly matched what other persons would say especially from both social sectors as well as business sectors is using uh uh sex with your child as a form of punishment a particularly humiliating thing oh yes very much so are you also familiar with the information that um Eric Mendez provided concerning well sorry that are you also familiar with the information in the case concerning how Jose Menendez uh like to drill and Grill and uh trap if you will people in conversation yes he he was very adapt at Mind Games if you will in terms of this phenomenon U certainly the dinner table aspect and trying to catch people and what they could remember and so forth and sources for information on that includes not only relatives who observe the dinner table and and others who observed it but also business associates who saw him do the same thing in business what are your sources for this piece of his profile if you will well the sources again are varied uh not only persons at firsthand they all persons that that uh the information is from firsthand witness this and was this just in the home no it was not just in the home it was in the business um with business associates and certainly with in Social uh engagements and was the information that Eric Mendez testified to and discussed with you about his being drilled and ridiculed in the mirror yes the mirror was an important part of watching himself and making himself have to say things into the mirror yes and was Jose menendez's regimen with the mirror consistent with other aspects of his personality profile that you were familiar with yes it was now you said that um you also look to see the detail with which um a subject describes the sexual molestation yes you've also read Eric mendez's testimony in this trial yes I have did he was he asked in fact to testify um in as much detail about the acts of molestation as what you had obtained from him in interview irrelevant overall no he was not did he give you more spe more details of the actuals each individual act that he could remember yes he did now when you hear reports about sexual acts from subjects such as Eric Mendez do you question them do you probe do you oh yes test Did you sort of do a little cross-examination yes and very often around the sensory type of uh questions just to double check and to um verify certain aspects yes you just don't sit and write down everything that somebody says now did you also discuss in your interviews with Eric Mendez his fears about disclosing information and what kept Him silent for so many years yes I did and did the state of mind that he revealed to you um was it similar to what the Studies have shown other children felt yes it was now when you're doing one of these assessments or evaluations and you're trying to determine if a history of sexual abuse has in fact occurred U I think you've indicated you look at the entire family Dynamic yes we do and in this particular case we're talking about fatherson incest that's right and in studies of other fatherson incest cases is the role of the mother folks done yes it is and why well the role of the mother it can be focused on for two reasons one one generally wants to know what we call the Loyalty uh division in a family is the mother going to be more sided with uh the husband or partner or is she more sided with the children and then you want to know for that reason whether the mother is seen as a protector or someone who is safe that that a child could go to to tell one also wants to look at the own background if you possibly can from the mother to see and father to see whether there's also any pattern prior what's the significance of what do you mean by a pattern prior you mean with other children or in their life in their own life and why is it significant to know if there's a pattern prior in their own life maybe let me hear the answer of the question okay uh merely because children can model after parents it becomes an important identifying uh person in their life and that is that goes on and on so the modeling point is important when you say goes on and on you mean goes on through generations through generations yes so you would look to see if if the mother and father were modeling on things that happened in their lives right and then you would look to see what their response was what do you mean by their resp all right thank you now in evaluating a family I think you've just indicated you try to look at models for in the parents past do you also examine however the entire scope of each parents's Behavior towards the child yes you do and in this particular case uh did you form an opinion about the role of Mrs Menendez in the perpetuation of and the secrecy of the incest in this family yes I did and could you give us an evaluation of that could you describe what you what what was significant about her role protction proper a state what were the significant characteristics of Mrs Menendez that supported Eric's descriptions to you of his feeling isolated feeling he had nowhere to turn feeling there was no one to protect it okay the um the evidence there speaks to the total uh loyalty if you will that the mother would show to the father so that it was not something that he felt would be supportive that she would feel he would she he wouldn't feel that she would be able to help or intervene uh he is not even sure as a as a typical reaction of whether he would be believed and also from a protection standpoint some times children uh don't uh feel they can tell to get the support they're going to get and was there information in this case from sources other than Eric Mendez that indicated that Mrs menendez's Chief loyalty was to her husband rather than her children yes I think there was great overwhelming evidence both from social sectors her family and friends as well as um business associates spoke to the Loyalty word overwhel sustain that por of the answer is you found substantial and significant evidence of her loyalty to her husband over the children same objection and leading to St on which ground okay what sort of evidence did you find that Mrs Menendez was loyal to her husband rather than her children substantial evidence you yes and was there also evidence uh that with respect to whether or not she had a pattern and history of being supportive of her children in opposition to her husband yes I did not find any evidence of that type of behavior in the mother and did you find U was there evidence in the case regarding her protectiveness and nurturance of her children no I did not find that um evidence um she was nurturing to the to the to the children U but in terms of the Loyalty that was expected that was what her role was to do and again those rules pretty much followed what was identified by the father yeah I think you misunderstood my question though did you see evidence that she protected her children no I did not see evidence that she protected her children did you see evidence that she was even physically careful about them no did not see that evidence did you see evidence that she was nurturing in the sense of affection and love not in terms of the affection and love now you did find evidence that she fed them yes and kept them clothed yes and she ran around with them according to the dictates of the family regime would that be fair to say yes that would be fair to say the training camp regime yes and are you familiar with the evidence concerning how she dealt with uh displays of emotion on the part of Eric or displays of emotional distress on his part such as crying or homesickness or pain or any of those things yes she could not deal with that could not or did not both did not and could not by speculation on part of sustain the answer is what do you mean by could not deal with that is that a psychological term yes that doesn't mean she lacks ability no that's true that just means she has a lacks of history of doing it that's right now in in incest families are there typical um Behavior patterns based on the research for the non-molesting parent yes there are and do these Behavior patterns map whether I mean do they break into categories that distinguish those cases where the incest is stopped by the parent versus those cases where goes on for a long period of time yes and can you describe what the different roles if you will of particularly if it's the father perpetrating the incest the differing types of so-called incest mothers mothers and incest fames yes well the mothers um of incest victims are faced with quite a a decision when there is the disclosure and they have to make a clear decision which side they're going to be on those that side with the child are going to be protective will make all efforts to stop the incest and do all the things that one considers in um in the treatment um of the child on the other hand those that side with the father they are going to deny that goes on they are going to assume the same uh demeanor and characteristics of the father um is there any um is there any support in the research for the for the likelihood that with a non-supportive mother extremely loyal to the father those are families in which there is no disclosure generally that is the case there just isn't any disclosure now you said that in those those families where the mother's loyalty runs mainly to the father that they assume the demeanor and the characteristics of the perpetrator that's correct are incest perpetrators a confessional lot do they tend to admit it when confronted from Foundation over no they don't even when they're confronted with uh uh strong corroborated evidence of what they've done oh yes they will not admit it's very rare that they will admit so you wouldn't expect if Jose Menendez was alive right now that he' come in court and admit what he did improper opinion and speculation you heard that Mrs ban uh that M Mrs bosanic confronted lendes during his cross-examination with this is improper all right improper EXC me the council was there a comment yes there was all right if there was I didn't hear it but if uh it wasn't meant to be heard so I doubt that the reporter heard it either your honor all right well we'll check her notes you may ask your next question thank you in talking with Eric Bandz about this history of um sexual molestation did he evidence any did he describe to you periods when he had confusion about it yes he did and I think you've already said that's very typical of molested children that has to do with this notion of ambivalence yes it does is that the kind of thing would expect to hear from someone who was making it up would they admit confusion about the meaning or the significance of it generally not now you've mentioned that one of the possible symptoms of um a child in the kind of distress that sexual molestation causes are um nightmares yes are there particular types of nightmares that that tend to be more symptomatic of abuse because I mean all children have nightmares don't they that's correct okay so are there particular types of nightmares or particular pattern of nightmares yes and what is that well the pattern of nightmares in children tend to be very um frightening they tend to be repetitive and there will be clear details that the child will be able to tell you it's not like a different nightmare every night and are you um did Eric to share with you his history of nightmares yes he did and did he share with you the ones that he has had over and over and over again since he's about 10 yes he has he did did he indicate to you uh the recency of those same nightmares that go back to when he was at btwn yes and how recently during the times that you were interviewing how recently was he having the nightmares he was having nightmares even in um jail same ones same ones yes all life even this year yes even this year the year that he's 22 yes this stuff sticks with you man even if you think you're over something that affected you and you've thought you've worked your issues out it can still be psychologically there subconsciously and you are um you haven't dealt with something yet and it could manifest into these dreams and nightmares and whatnot so it's just scary that this act by another human being can change the whole trajectory of your life and what you could accomplish and become it's just it's scary now in some incest families does the mother the non- perpetrating parent um even assume the role of facilitator to the incest in other words are there issues that they have that are somehow helped by the incest yes and did you evaluate whether or not there were such issues with Kitty Mendes so that she was a person who would be a facilitator of incest yes and what were those issues well some of those issues included her routine or inspection of her son's um genitals um she had knowledge of the showers that were being taken she ignored many of the behaviors without exploring why whose behaviors uh her sons Eric's okay U are you talking about such things as his vomiting his yes his vomiting his nightmares his screaming out those kinds of now we've heard evidence that she didn't exactly ignore the nightmare she treated them with cold deaths yes she did when you're talking about ignoring it ignoring it in what way ignoring in terms of trying to find out the reason behind it um most parents are going to want to know why the child is behaving the way they are to see whether it's something that needs attention and um was there anything that you uh learned concerning her attitudes about sex that was that might be an issue that allowed her to facilitate incest yes Direction sustain the answer well if you received hypothetically information that the mother of an in victim uh had a dislike for oral sex did not care if her husband had that need satisfied elsewhere so long as he didn't have a love relationship would that have any significance for you in trying to evaluate that mother as an incest facilitator proper hypothetical sustain well I'd like to approach on this room all right next question just as a foundational question did you read all of Dr Summerfield Summerfield's notes of his therapy sessions with Mrs Mendez over you can answer that question yes I did and based on your own practices and what's accepted in the field of mental health treat treatment uh are therapist supposed to be taking notes so that they can assess symptoms on the part of their patients overall yes and are they supposed to rely on these notes in a psychological sense in order to assess what's the nature of the patient's problem yes and what treatment program might be called for given the nature of that problem yes okay we'll get back to this a little bit later perhaps in evaluating Eric Mendez as a victim of child sexual abuse um and trying to assess what the effects of that abuse were on him did you make a determination as to the severity as compared to other situations of the abuse in this case objection Irrelevant in proper opinion question is vague you'll have to rephrase it okay let me ask a foundational question does the severity of the abuse have any connection to its possible emotional psychological and as we've learned biological effects yes it does and did you assess the severity in terms of its potential for effects for damage if you will um of the abuse that was both reported to you and that you had other supporting information for here yes I did and what was your assessment my assessment that this was severe and what was that based on what are the factors that you consider well the factors that you look at are the type of abuse in other words there were multiple types of abuse here from the history no I want I want to just sure we're focusing on the same thing we're talking only about the sexual abuse moment okay we'll take just sexual abuse just for the moment when you say the types of abuse do you mean the types of sexual abuse yes the acts committed the length of time that a person is in the abusing situation okay um we've already talked about the severity of the acts or or the Continuum of acts that were perpetrated on him okay and the uh what we call the arousal level what did it actually U trigger in the person I don't understand what you mean by that well that's that's the the level of reaction that the person has to the abuse that's an important factor so you assessed uh what your opinion was Eric's reaction to the abuse yes okay um and then one does look at whether it occurs in the context of other kinds of abuse before we get to that um was one of the things one of the factors the fact let me ask you this right in other case histories of sexual molestation are there types of sexual molestation where the child isn't really forced to participate more than just be an object upon whom things are done yes yes are acts of sexual abuse in which the child is forced to actually do things to participate in an active way considered more severe than those where the child can remain passive yes they are and why are they considered more severe well because you've now entered another level of the child having participated and what that means to the child it has been processed at a certain level um all of that is is important as to whether they're just having things done to them versus being involved it's just another significant level and certainly from a treatment standpoint we need to know that okay but I'm trying to understand when you say processed and importance why is it important with respect to the effects on the child and whether those are emotional effects such as their sense of well-being or their sense of helplessness or those that's what I'm trying to to get to how does this hook into uh the damage that's done to them well all of the factors that occur do impact on how the young person sees himself identifies himself thinks of himself and those in turn relate to feelings of um hopelessness helplessness the whole self-worth issue comes into question how am I valued uh as an object or as a person all of those things are important because the abuse interacts with the development of the child so each developmental task that the child is going through as he grows up has to be is being filtered through this abuse and when the abuse is more severe are you more likely to wind up with a child who feels helpless hopeless lacking in worth fearful yes now a child who feels they're not they have no value to a parent okay yes if that parent is a threatening and violent and scary person yes is that child um more likely to fear that that parent to whom they have no value will kill them yes they certainly are now you said that you in assessing the sexual abuse you cannot it's also important to look at the other forms of abuse in the family yes I want to talk to you in terms of what things uh could have contributed to Eric Mendez being at 18 a person who felt helpless about dealing with pressures and conflicts in the family okay yes foundationally uh in your evaluation of him and based on all the material that you've read do you believe well that's right do you have an opinion as to whether Eric Mendez was a person who felt powerless and helpless to deal with crisis in the family did you make an assessment of Eric Mendez with respect to the effects of the abuse on him yes I did okay and would you give us the characteristics that you found in that assessment well the characteristics that I found in that assessment had to do with his feelings of helplessness in the situation of his feeling that he could not affect or intervene in the situation what situation you talking about the sexual abuse okay that there was nobody within the family that would come to his assistance that he could go to that he could talk to that would act on his behalf so he felt isolated felt isolated now do these feelings that this self-image if you will or these feelings about self that are part of the sexual abuse do these carry over into his basic position in life his basic feelings about himself well not only do they carry over but you can see it in Behavior yes this is a developing type of individual a child is developing and so those experiences become very very important in the total what we call the self-concept how one sees oneself okay and I want you to focus if you can now Dr burges on what Eric mendez's self-concept would be or was at age 18 after 12 years of that abuse in the family Dynamic that you saw in this case the question has been asked focus on something I'm sorry okay now that you focused on that could you describe to us your opinion about um what his self-concept was OB at any particular point in time or just in general is well just starting as as basic operational strike that all the research shows that this kind of abuse has effects on children yes it does just like battered wife syndrome indicates what the effects of a battered wife are of living in that kind of an environment correct that's correct so there is an equivalent set of effects that children have yes all and did you find as a matter of opinion that Eric Mendez displayed the symptoms of a person who had been subjected to an abusive family situation at the hands of his parents yes I did did you find that he had effects uh that were consistent with the effects of other sexually molested children yes I did all right and why don't you tell us therefore what those effects were by the time he was 18 years old well first let me ask you this are the effects long lasting or is it just something a child experiences during the abuse and then the minute is dinner time the effects go away no they do not go away okay are they long-term they are longterm they may be relieved by treatment but they are longterm and can they last for the rest of one's life yes they may and is one of the effects what we were talking about the other day that children who are abused uh go through this process that you call trauma learning objection B right sustained as to form leading you had asked her to asked the witness to enumerate these things and we backed away from that I'm sorry asked the witness to enumerate these effects that uh occur and then you with Drew that on something else all right so will you enumerate for us the effects that you believe Eric Mendez was suffering from at the age of 18 what all right this is in the context of our previous answers quitting or analogizing this these objections are really just um putting a stop to Leslie's really great questioning and it's they're dumb qu they're dumb objections because all she needs to do is rephrase the question slightly and we know what she's saying or what she's referring to it's like she just wants to object because this is going really bad for the state to the batter woman syndrome and similar effects that are observed on a child in the situation such as you described right yes okay okay the effects that one would see would be the uh what we call the inability to act the staying bound to the situation not seeing options withdrawal depression it may be as severe as Suicidal Thoughts high level of anxiety which can get into performance types of situation what do you mean by that uh well performance anxiety has to do with becoming so anxious in the situation that one can't do their very best because that emotion is overriding their usual way to think and um view a situation whether that's like taking a test or um in a social situation or in a even in a sports certain degree okay so you said the usual effects I'm asking whether or not you made an assessment that Eric Menendez had these effects from his history of being uh sexually and psychologically abused in his family yes I found those that I've just identified to be present in Eric Mendez now you talked uh yesterday about this notion of trauma learning how a child's uh mapping if you will changes so they have a different kind of fear response as a result of trauma yes I did now is trauma learning something that uh disappears after the traumatic event or does it persist no it persists it's really encoded into the person's way of Behaving and thinking about themselves and so even if there let us say there's a period of traumatic acts that that are visited upon the child and he makes the and this encoding has occurred yes all right and then let's say there's a period of time where nothing particularly traumatic happens can the trauma learned responses if you will be re-trigger by a crisis even years away from the originating traumatic acts yes it can now what are in the literature concerning uh child sexual abuse what are rescue fantasies rescue fantasies are thoughts that a child has or a person has that is going to take them out of the situation will provide the uh if you will the rescue to their dilemma and this is something that's thought about dreamed about hoped for now what causes children to have these rescue fantasies well children who have these fantasies are in a situation which they cannot affect their own um they cannot get out of the situation or stop the situation now is that in fact they cannot or is it that they think they cannot well they they cannot and what is the significance of uh children's rescue fantasies is is this A coping me oh well that certainly it's the the coping first of all they've been coping with the abuse and the only way that they can get through it oftentimes is to think about how they're going to get out and who is going to help them get out of it so there is this in a way a magical wish that somebody will come along and rescue them or that there something event is going to occur in their life that will somehow get them out of the situation like an act of God the house will burn down or dad Carl go off the road on the way home from work that could be a thought a child has yes now are rescue fantasies plans for escaping the situation or are they merely um fantasies no they can be actually based in reality some event that they think is going to happen absolutely is an event yeah now in this particular case are you familiar with the information about what uh occurred in the interaction and relationship between Mr and Mrs Menendez after they and Eric Mendez moved to California yes and um was there some significant to your assess was there some significant events that occurred shortly after the moved to California uh yes and what were they well some of the events that had to do with um the adaptation if you will to the new environment we one um I don't know what you mean by okay just moving in and adapting to the house and the surroundings and so forth okay I'm talking about I'm trying to focus on the relationship between Mr and Mrs Menendez just significant things that happened there well in the relationship between the the two the husband and wife there was a great out showing if you will of affection and um and togetherness and things like that that was something that was observed by other persons let me take you back to the fall of 1986 are you familiar with the information that there was talk of divorce and Great Depression and unhappiness and suicidal ideation by Mrs Mendez yes back in 86 yes all right I would like you to focus on that if you could okay um was that a significant difference in this family yes and would that kind of family difference disruption have an effect upon an adolescent boy living in that family certainly has an effect in terms of if he becomes aware of it which in this case he did this was not a secret within the immediate family nuclear family and what effect would it have if he becomes aware of it well it then places him in the position of what happens if indeed the parents do divorce uh what happens to the children these are all usual typical questions that any child has uh let alone the uh emotional feelings they have about each parent and what will happen but it really throws the child into a lot of confusion and anxiety and if you take a child who's already anxious does this help no now in this particular case was there um that this particular case were you informed that Eric Mendes was aware that there was talk of divorce between the parents very aware of that yes and was that notion of divorce in any way uh did that at any point become a rescue fantasy for him not as a rescue fantasy well rescue fantasy in terms of who he would be with if that came to that point whether a decision would have to be made as to who he lived with okay are you familiar with the information that Mrs Mendez left a suicide letter around for Eric to find that he found it that he contacted his brother and that his brother had um a conversation with the mother yes I am and are you familiar with the content of that conversation basically offering a home for the mother and Eric with L yes I am now under the circumstances of this family with the prospect of being able to go and live with his brother and his mother be a rescue fantasy in that context yes and based on what happened after that contact with LA Menendez um what happened to that rescue fantasy it it completely collapsed and what happens to children when who are in these sort of Trapped situations when their rescue fantasies collapse the it will certainly increase the anxiety there is now no uh opportunity for them to think of a way out and it throws them right back into the confusion of what is going to happen and confusion about what's going to happen keeps you just to use the Mind turn it keep you anxious and nervous and on edge absolutely keeps the young person very anxious now with respect to the um sexual molestation are you familiar with a rescue fantasy that Eric Mendez held on to for a number of years yes and what was that rescue fantasy well the main fantasy that he had is that he would be able to get out of the situation when he went to college when he moved away from the home and lived in the dorm at college now is that a typical rescue fantasy for molested kids in other words has the same thing been heard from other children oh yes moving out of the home into another situation doesn't always have to be college but it certainly can be um Point as they get out of the home and explain if you will what um we'll strike that what role do rescue fantasies have if you will in keeping the child in the home until the the the imagined event occurs well it serves a great purpose in doing that because the young person can be thinking and fantasizing about how wonderful the you know wherever they're going is going to be and that helps them to cope and adapt to the abuse that it's still ongoing and are people in general who feel trapped in situations that they can't get out of do they tend to have fantasies to relieve some of the pressure of that situation yes that's a common coping mechanism it's hope when you're in a hopeless situation it's some form of hope to have and is it coping mechanism particularly common for children in abusive families yes it is now I think you've already talked about um certain things that you called adaptions are those things other coping mechanisms that are typical of abused uh and molested children yes there are other things that are coping mechanisms of abused children now I think you explained that for example this notion of putting your mind somewhere else is a way of fleeing when you can't physically leave that's correct and uh protest behaviors such as crying or attempts to run away or ways to fight back yes you will um in this particular case do you recall information about when Eric Mendez was approximately 13 little things he did that were like protest behaviors yes there were some attempts to literally run away uh there's uh examples of that um other activities that would try to keep him away from the situation I think one other example is his um putting cinnamon into his um drinks of the father now what significance do you place on uh the information he gave you that he would put cinnamon in his father's drinks well that was an important act not importance I place on that as an act of trying to cope deal with the situation it's an it's an effort to have some control some aspect of the situation yes now is that kind of detail for example putting cinnamon in the perpetrator's drink in order to flavor the fluids uh the kind of thing you'd expect somebody to make up who is making up a history of sexual abuse no no did you um form any opinions of why it was that Eric Mendez didn't simply run away yes and would you tell us what point are you referring to well I'm going to exactly get to that except it's 12:00 okay and you want to do that at 1:30 I do okay we'll recess until 1:30 ladies and gentlemen uh J is back as well as all the participants in the case of people versus Eric Mendez you may continue your direct examination yes your honor at this time I'd like to Mark a three pages of a tight medical record and ask to be more 9 it'll be Mark 299 ttif earlier injy yes it is you describing the first entry on that yes and what is the date of that entry that is 12377 so Eric would have been just 7 years old at the time of that examination that is correct and that shows injuries to what part of the throat to three parts of the throat it's the posterior fairings the uula and the soft pallet thank you now we were I had begun to talk to you about the notion of U Eric mz's ability to run away from this particular family uh do you recall from the information you received and from uh Eric mendez's testimony that there was an effort on his part to run away when he was approximately 12 yes I am aware of that and you're aware that it was the father who found him and threatened him as a result of that yes I am aware of that are you aware of two other shall we say feeble gestures at running away that occurred later in Eric menendez's life yes overall yes I am and what are those two incidents as you recall them there's an incident at age 17 and there one within a very short time period of the last week around uh beginning part of the week I believe a weekend the week that his parents were got killed yes now dealing with um that last week have you uh reviewed all the data available on what transpired within the family during that last week uh leading up to the shootings yes I have and have you uh determined five critical factors that contributed to the occurrence of the shootings in this case yes I have and if you could would you identify uh first just list the five factors and then I'll have you explain them okay the five factors are Eric menendez's father's insistence that he continued to live partially at home which Eric understands to mean that the sexual abuse will continue second Eric menendez's disclosure of his sexual abuse and suffering to Lyle after witnessing Lyle's humiliation by his mother third Eric menendez's learning of Lyle's confrontation with the father prompting the father's threat to protect the secret at all costs four menendez's resistance through flight of his father's attempted assault and fifth the mother revealing her knowledge of the abuse and her blaming her sons for the families problems okay now if we could go back then and talk about each of these uh from a u the standpoint of its impact on Eric manand as a state of mind uh during the course of these events first of all you talked about his father's insistence that he spent a certain number of days at home that's correct and does this have uh some impact on this notion of rescue fantasy that we had talked about before yes it does it destroys that whole rescue fantasy right there and you've testified that this rescue fantasy was a method by which Eric could go on could cope and adapt and live with what was happening to him so long as he beli there'd be an escape yes this is his dream his hope his wish and what happens uh emotionally if you will in your opinion uh when this particular fantasy that you're aware he had this in mind for about three and a half years or so yes and what happens when this fantasy is basically destroyed well two things happen one his anxiety goes up about what the possible con what that means but second of all it's very depressing uh very deflating if you will to have this dream now dashed and does he have based on your evaluation of him and everything you know does he have any resource to fall back on here to get him through no culations objection sustain the answer is St okay based on your evaluation and examination of him was the are you aware of any contingent plan for coping that he had developed over the previous years sustain you're on a based on what she's been told you're asking whether or not the defendant told her anything about that yes did you have any information I thought I had did you have any information from him that he had worked out any contingent plan for Rescue no I had no information from him that he had worked out a contingent plan and with ch abused children who have these rescue fantasies do they usually have two or three or four do they focus on one thing to get them through well they generally focus on one thing to get them through now you're aware that Eric reports that at this point he became extremely depressed in suicide yes is that consistent with the deflation of a rescue fantasy as it's been studied in other children as well yes now you said the second um well is that let me make sure that that's all that was sign You' mentioned all the significant things about this deflating of the rescue fantasy yes okay the second Factor you said was Eric's disclosure to Lyman indas yes okay and what significance does that have well the significance that has is he does witness for the for the first time overtly witness the mother um humiliating his brother and that is something that certainly uh makes him now want to share with his brother what has happened to him because he sees his brother as also experiencing some of the feelings that he has had and is in this family history um was Lyle did Eric have Notions based on your interview with Eric and other Witnesses did Eric have Notions of where Lyall stood in the family yes and what were those well Lyall essentially was the a parent in the family he was the designated son that was to carry on uh from the father's standpoint uh and that became very important to Eric to see this humiliation by the mother to this um this child or this son so there was some identification of co-victims status you think oh right that was the identification that he saw he now realized he shared um the same kinds of experiences he could now tell him the experiences that he had okay well is that the only reason why he could tell him or did the the destruction of the rescue fantasy also well that to that yeah that had prepared him in other words very often you will get a a joining of or a series of events that make it uh kind of converge to make it easier for someone to tell someone this type of information which he had never revealed really to his to his brother based on your understanding of Eric's State of Mind at the point when he disclosed toile were there any other options that he would conceive of uh to get him out of the situation of the sexual molestation with his suain do you understand Dr burus when I ask you these questions I'm asking it based solely on the information that you have from Eric Menendez and other Witnesses yes I do I'm not asking you to make stuff up or to speculate yes okay then phrase it rather than asking what the defendant could conceive of ask him if you're asking whether he told or anything well I I don't think it's just based on that your with all due respect I think that's part of it but well the way you phrased it you're asking her to speculate as to what he could possibly think of in the context I'm sorry in the context of this family history and particularly the history of the of the last three and a half years in this family okay were there any examples that you're aware of in other people's behavior for example that Eric mende has witnessed that showed a way out of this family not a way out in a positive way okay was there any example or examples of an inability for anyone in this family to leave it yes and what were those examples well certainly the example of the mother in terms of her continuing depression her despair to the point where she becomes suicidal she leaves uh information for her sons to find um she is drinking she is on medication um all of these factors are very clear and it's a very important one for the uh Sons to see that she is not going to get out of that situation in other words she doesn't leave the marriage in spite of all this that's right and is this is there some significance here that her suffering from the son's perspective or at least from what they would have been able to see is caused by the father absolutely yes and yet she doesn't lose that's correct now is there also any significance to the relationship that ly Menendez uh maintained and continued with both parents even after he had left home and gone away to school well he does leave home and he does go away to school but that doesn't mean that he isn't uh kept very much a part of the family their father is flying back and forth uh there's a lot of continued phone calls daily even more than daily so there's a lot of continued activity and intrusion by the parents into his life even though he's thousands of miles away and based on what you knew of course Eric Mendez was quite aware of how his brother was still totally within the family even though living in Princeton yes now this um okay you were describing what the significance of the disclosure to L is what is its significance with respect to Eric mendez's um anxiety level and fears well what that does to his fears and his anxiety is to just increase it and why is that because he the aspects that he felt in control about that he could look to that he had support from as he sees those beginning to uh crumble it makes him more anxious and what is he going to do so all of the doubt the confusion the fear the anxiety all increases okay is there some component of anxiety that would automatically increase whenever a child who's kept one of these secrets under threat of death reveals it the anxiety of um just not being able to to think of anything to do well my question really has to do with the fact that you're aware that based on Eric mendez's statements and testimony his father always threatens to kill him if he revealed the secret yes okay now he's revealed the secret yes okay so does that increase anxiety just that mere fact no matter who he told that's right and in the course of this telling Lyall is it your understanding that Lyall was going to take action that is that was not necessarily Eric's understanding at the time he told him that was a subsequent action taken by okay but in the discussion with L says he's going to talk to the father yes he does say that okay and would that fact that um Lyle says he's going to now take action to try to stop it would that have any contribution to Eric mendez's anxiety and fear absolutely greatly increases it even more now in your opinion uh did Eric Mendez as a sexually molested child and as a child of this otherwise abusive family um experience that form of trauma learning that would give him a heightened a rekindling effect to threats of fear to to fear stimulus stimul that's right yes now you said the next critical factor is that ER Mendes learns of the confrontation between um Lyle and his father that's correct now he learns of that well St that chronologically speaking though um isn't there first a confrontation between himself and his father before he knows what went on between his father- andlaw yes okay and you said that that was significant that critical Factor was significant because it was a sign of resistance and a flight from father's assult yes this is one of the first times that he actually is able to successfully resist and what's the significance of that in the overall pattern of things here well that shows a new way of Behaving that is a departure if you will from a usual coping which had been to stay in the situation and comply so you now see um new action being taken and this resistance and then fleeing actually works does it not to stop that assault yes it does so is this learning in effect that some form of action may be help some kind of action to defend himself may actually work yes and that certainly does in that situation and gives him A New Perspective now you said the next significant factor was that he finds out about the the nature of the confrontation between uh his brother and his father that's correct and what is significant about that information that he receives well that up until this point he has been told that his brother is going to do this now he gets the not only does he tell but he gets the reaction of the father from Li's perspective okay and what does that do to his um basic state of mind with respect to anxiety and fear well well this actually heightens this is one of the critical factors that really heightens it because now the incest secret is out um there has been statements made uh by the parties involved and that is really the heightening if you will the new crisis so this is a crisis situation yes it is and in this new crisis situation would you expect that the um that his heightened alarm system is going to be highly activated yes he's highly anxious and and yes and then you said the last piece of uh the critical factors was the Revelation by his mother that um not only did she know all along but that she blames her sons for her own problems yes now was this blaming her sons for her problems a new aspect in her behavior no this was not new and how had it manifested itself before well there had been many examples in which she would uh say that one of the sons had forgotten something and blame them when indeed it had been her responsibility or their um example such as that did you consider her leaving the suicide note for Eric to find it another way that she's trying to blame her children for her problems that's another example yes how significant is that fact that she in 1986 when the family had just moved here and they were all uprooted she leaves this suicide note for her youngest son to find I say that's very significant very serious why because it produces information that's very difficult for an adolescent um young man to absorb to have to be able to deal with and it's also very uh dangerous in terms of other factors that were ongoing okay are you aware of the fact that uh two years or so after this she purchases a gun yes and are you aware of the fact that that she's still in therapy with Suicidal Thoughts yes and what does that do with respect to the environment of the home no and it's not not only that but it's all that Eric is hearing the arguing the despair the crying there's an enormous amount of crying that he hears and this plus the note plus the fact that she has a gun in which there's ammunition readily available uh makes this a very dangerous home a very dangerous household for a young person to be in and this is also at a time when his brother isn't present so having lived in this dangerous environment does the danger go away just because ly is now home for this period in 1989 no you're familiar with the information concerning uh Mrs mendez's threats to poison the family yes I am and based on all of this information in your opinion uh given his history and his anxiety uh would Eric Mendez have genuinely believed that his mother was capable of killing him yes objection suain the answer based on the special knowledge that he had of his mother's history over the years okay yes and the effects of her treatment of him yes do you believe he could have harbored a good faith belief that she could kill him suain I'd like to approach okay I'll see if I remember now um Dr bur just based on your um evaluation of all the material before you and particularly focusing on the uh history that Eric Mendez had with his mother and these events that had occurred over the last few years um and the effects of the abuse on Eric Mendez is it your opinion that he could have actually believed that his mother was going to kill him yes now was there also factors from the family history uh that would lead him to form the same that could lead him to form the same belief concerning his father's willingness to kill him yes there were and what were the factors with respect to um the father that could have informed that belief first of all the threats that were made second of all the knowledge that uh the father accomplished things that he intended to whether that's in the work setting or whether it's in the home setting that his focus on success an achievement the fact that the sons were really seen as objects for a father's pleasure if you will rather than to be worthy as individuals themselves and perhaps most important the um the feeling that the father was seeing and saying to the son that he was disappointed in him that he was a failure uh especially that factor were was a very significant one in this family the way the this father behaved do you see any evidence that he gave messages of acceptance or unconditional regard for his son yes yes unconditional no conditional regard sorry conditional regard for his son and what was the condition precedent if you will in this family for any regard from this father what' you have to do to get regard oh you had to do what he wanted you to do and was one of the things he wanted them to do was win oh yes win and you are familiar with uh the facts concerning Eric loss at the tennis tournament that summer yes I am and you're familiar with the fact that there had been um conflict of on some level with the father in the spring of 1989 because Eric wanted to not report every single detail of his tennis practice to his father father yes and that the father was apparently threatening to disown somehow erase Eric as a member of the family yes because he wasn't doing as he was supposed to and are you also aware of information from your interview with Eric about the father talking about getting a new family yes what was that information that it's not being offered for the truth your honor but only for Eric man and as a state of mind back are you also aware of information on your interview with Mendez about the father talking about getting a new Family Foundation conversation okay the conversation concerning the father or the conversation with Eric Mendez your honor the one that she Rel okay um what information did you have about the father making statements about getting a new family I had information from Eric Mendez yes when was it the father would make these statements the father would make these statements uh when he was displeased with something um whether it is something he had done or he perhaps he had lost uh at a sports activity or his situation in school and what was it the father would say the father always said that he could one of the things that he could do is just to um Wipe Out the family and get a new one and start all over again now by white that he wasn't talking about killing him was he or was it well I don't think that that was ever made clear's um State of Mind during uh this week particularly after the confrontation with uh with his father both his and his brothers what do all these uh attributes of the father and statements of the father add up to the he that up to the what was uh transmitted to the Sun as to how the Sun the fear that he placed him in and what he could do to the sun is are did these messages add up to um the kind of thing that a traumatized child with his high level anxiety could put together as a a belief in the father's ability to kill him yes it certainly does as the anxiety is raised as each one of the factors comes in especially a statements of threats threats of uh killing the family come in that certainly does raise the anxiety and the fear now you have talked before about the basic the neurobiological basis for U the symptoms of fear the feelings of fear the physical side yes does this physical component um dominate yes this is a new crisis situation now at this point we're now talking about Thursday night after the confrontations with the parents and the conversation um with Lyle concerning what has transpired in ly's conversation with the father okay yes at this point based on his entire history okay yes um and based on the effects of this history what options would be apparent to a person in Eric situation well the options that generally would come in would be to leave the situation to try to get out of the situation that's one whole set of options that's the runway the runway why wasn't that a viable option for Eric Mendez that wasn't a viable option for him because of past behavior for one example that he had tried in the past uh but even more so of where to go how to do it um none of that was readily available for him to plan that type of action why not he didn't have the actual um options to I think the other he didn't have friends he was isolated from people Jose made sure of that he didn't have anybody that he could turn to for help thing is that was so important in this family was that the mother never left in the in the situation and that is a modeling type of thing okay but if you're now actively afraid of death and you've indicated he would have been okay why can't he at this point simply change all of his previous thinking and all of his previous feeling and all of his previous dependency and to step and leave well that's not the way this is also an abused child that has been traumatized and the trauma learning part which is encoded just doesn't allow for that I know I'm trying to get some notion I mean I know why but I'm trying to get some notion of why he just didn't see those options okay is there any component here also of fear upon running away I mean is running away always presented itself to these children as a safe option no fear is the underlying part here and the fear raises the level so that there is no option that they see they don't see themselves as being able or he doesn't see himself as being able to be effective in the situation to be able to see that as an option my point though is that he feared that if he ran away it would only be worse that they come after him knowing Jose I'm sure yeah they would come after him and secondly I'm sure that Jose would have said if you ever try to leave I'll come after you you know I'll I'll end your life whatever I'll kill you you try to leave this house you ruin my you know whatever the conversation was with the whole you he wanted to go live in the dorms and Jose wouldn't let him so he couldn't even have the freedom to go live on campus while he went to college well that was always a basic fear right where would he go who would be there to help him there was never any any offer within the immediacy of who could uh who could he go to that the father couldn't find so that the the notion of not having anywhere to go is not having anywhere to go where the father wouldn't find that's right the father had always said he would find him no matter where even if he had to get uh law enforcement out after him and is that a credible threat uh from a father in this particular um position in life would the father's position in life inform that threat in other words make it more believable uh to a child the fact that he's Rich he's a powerful personality yes there's no question that that has a factor and that he would be able to find him connection and are you familiar with the mother's ability to track and stalk people yes she has shown examples of that and has she shown examples um of being able of spying and surreptitiously surveilling her children she had done both that for her children as well as for other people that she knew or was trying to find out about now the mistress remember she went to she flew to another state to go spy on this mistress that's all she wanted to do was just like see her check her out I don't know if she actually talked to her or not but she flew to wherever this girl was or woman was and uh did a secret spy session to see who she was it's one of the developmental issues for adolesence a notion of Independence and responsibility yes and if if a person feels that that they know how to take care of thems um is that part of a feeling of Independence yes if a child is never allowed to make decisions that impact how their own physical well-being does that child ever develop this feeling of responsibility ability to take care of oneself Independence no they don't and children who don't develop that do they feel helpless to assist themselves yes anyone that doesn't have skills like that is going to find themselves very helpless in any type of situation that requires problem solving now it wouldn't matter if by all sorts of efforts and group participation that same child were able to get into the University of California does that tell you that that that person did not have a sense of helplessness no that doesn't with the fact that that person was able with tremendous hard work and lots of pressure to uh do well in Junior Amateur competitive tennis tell you anything about their sense of responsibility or helplessness to be on their own and Escape very controlling parents no not at all that's a very different type of situation let me ask you this because I haven't before what role if any did uh Eric mendez's athletic ability and what rewards that brought him play in the picture of the effects of abuse on him that played a very important role uh that probably was the primary uh aspect of his life that saved him in terms of having physical activity having a very focused type of activity in which he could uh really Excel so that the physical sport of whether it be tennis or whatever it was was allowed him to work off if you will a lot of the feelings and so forth that he had that had developed because of the abusive situation so it actually was a release of some sort for him yes and that's true even though there were aspects of it that he didn't like that other people people feel were abusive yes even though it was tremendous pressure it was tremendous pressure yes have there been studies that show that sexually molested boys one of the therapies prescribed for them is a lot of athletic uh involvement yes it certainly is one that we strongly Advocate is it important uh for children um to survive mentally that they be good at something yes now you recall way back in the beginning of your testimony um I was talking to you about some factors that were that would not have been known uh at the point of examining the crime scene to inform one about how this all came about but that developed in the information pool later yes you are familiar are you not with the information concerning um ly and Eric mendez's trips to gun stores and ultimate purchase of shotguns yes I am and you recall I had asked you early in your testimony whether you considered the purchasing of the shotguns part of a plan to commit a premeditated homicide I remember that question yes and your answer to that question was I did not consider it a plan as described now what do you consider the obvious purchase of the shotguns that occurred Friday following this Thursday night of confrontations I consider that was uh that it was a form of self- protection could you identify any other person in ly or Eric mendez's history who who would have been a logical person for them to go to for protection Jud proper was there anyone who you saw in examining all of the data who played a protective role for L and Eric Mendez over the course of their lives do you know what a protective role is a person who provides protection yes I do did you see any evidence of such a person in this family history protction well you're I'd like to be heard I don't understand that I admit I'm not that bright today all right you make him up here and like thank next question did uh Eric Mendez in his interview with you uh ever say that there was anyone he felt he could go to for protection from his father no he did not did he indicate there was ever anyone he could go to for protection from his mother no he did not identify anyone and did he indicate to you that at the point when he and his brother um were discussing the probable consequences of the confrontations that he felt he had no options but to defend himself that is my understanding yes that was your understanding what he told you yes that he had no options that's what he told you yes and is that feeling or sense or concept typical of abused children who feel they cannot escape the abuse situation yes it's typical of anyone in an abusive situation an adult or a child you feel stuck you feel trapped they isolate you they put you in a position where you don't have the option to have people that can protect you around you they don't allow it now we have talked about uh that you have testified about this um unconscious if you will habit of hypervigilance of scanning the environment that manifests itself in people who've been traumatized and are fearful yes it's not in their conscious awareness and are you aware of um based on things that Eric menz told you that L Menendez and Eric Mendez testified to are you aware of behavior on their part over the course of those last three days that is hypervigilant Behavior scanning Behavior yes I am aware of that such as the uh first of all it looks at reading of the cues that are there it looks at the conversation and the confrontation that has had it looks at such things as the activities that the family takes um the fishing trip uh it looks at uh even the doors being locked or unlocked um there were a number of factors in that last week that to them indicated um danger now did did Eric man is in talking to him indicate to you the significance of these kinds of facts no he did not indicate that well did he indicate that he noticed these things that these things yes he noticed those things and he was able to tell me those things that's correct and did he tell you for example that um his father on that Sunday night telling him to go up to his room had significance to him yes that did have significance to him and is that the kind of statement that might appear on the face to someone without special knowledge to mean nothing but to a person who's been in abusive relationship it's what's you're calling a queue yes that is an example of a queue and is the closing of the door for example of the family room after this que has been given another CU that's another q and is the parents unwillingness to allow L and Eric to leave the house that night another CU yes that is another queue and is the mother stuttering and being unable to give a reason why they can't just go out of the house that night another queue yes that is and is the fact that on Saturday night uh Mrs Mendez told Eric that he was the reason the family wasn't going to work out another queue yes that was a very important queue and are these the kinds of cues that trigger this rekindled high level of fear yes in fact it's a cumulative effect of all of those cues it isn't just one Quee alone and to persons like such as Eric Mendez who have been traumatized um by these people who are sending out these Q messages okay is he having these neurobiologic your opinion is he having this neurobiological response to this message that you've described as automatic Foundation suain would one in his situation with his past receiving a series of significant cues be likely to experience this neurobiological reaction that you've described yes he would and I think you've indicated that this reaction is automatic and not directed by rational thought yes that is the Point yes are there other facts or information that you received from Eric Mendez from either his interview with you or his testimony or the testimony of his brother that suggests to you that this limic system response is full bore what's going on that Sunday night objection and proper opinion s EXC me yes can just ask a couple of other questions can the look on someone's face like the look on Mrs menendez's face at the close of the argument Sunday night also be a cue yes again the sensory kinds of impact whether it's visual whether it's something they heard both of those are very strong cues are there other facts that you're aware of that occurred uh during that Sunday night period that suggest to you um the kind of olymic system response you were describing yesterday and Friday um well the critical other critical factor is a statement about um that there was silence too there was a certain amount of Silence from the father in terms of not saying anything that was important during those last two days uh which generally meant something very was going to happen and was silence therefore given that family history also a queue yes it was a queue are you familiar with a statements attributed to the father um that he would not ever tip his hand if he were going to do something really bad to someone he would simply do it yeah and certainly that was known within the family of how he operated now is the triggering and the automatic reactions of the lyic system an abnormal response a normal response what it's a normal response it's a protective mechanism and it's in the body to be able to alert the person or the organism so it's a very very critical part of our being it's a normal response now you said that it's a when someone is operating in the throws of this neurobiological system you've indicated that uh it's a it's a situation of high emotionality and lower no thinking that's correct okay and when you say lower no thinking does it take any amount of thinking to be able for example to run into your closet and get a shotgun no does it take thinking in the way that you're using the term to stick some shells inside that shotgun do you consider those acts um in conflict with your description of the kinds of of actions people are taking uh when their lmic system has been activated no I don't see them in Conflict why not because it's more it's again puts in the category of automatic these are automatic behaviors that spring into action what's the difference between an automatic behavior and a reasoned to rational or cognitive behavior well to have a reason cognitive response you have to first of all have low emotion so that the thinking is organized and can do of what we call the General cognitive functions the minute that you raise that level of anxiety it starts to disorganize the thinking and it willon be rational okay now when someone is operating under this level of fear um would you expect them we strike that I believe you said that that under this level of fear it can affect the ability to perceive and to remember certain a certain quality of detail is that correct yes memory can be affected uh with this level of anxiety and you've heard uh sorry that you've read the testimony and you've interviewed Eric Mendez concerning what level of detail he remembers or doesn't remember from the actual shooting yes and is there anything notable to you about his report of the level of detail um there is not a level of detail so that in itself is important um he is able to describe certain actions but there is not there's a lack of memory around certain parts of what happened that evening and what's the significance of that to you well that the significance of that is that the high level of anxiety is just so present that the ability of the mind to remember and clearly give details is missing now is there another area where it's been studied where persons um under a high level of anxiety in shooting situations don't recall details yes and what is that that is reported in the law enforcement uh literature in terms of police shootings and being able to give precise detail around what happens versus what event and police shootings either police are getting shot or are they shooting people or both well both and this is a noted phenomenon that even police officers have difficulty with details of a shooting yes now I wanted to uh draw your attention to the question of hatred love and fear if you will okay in the literature and in the research I think you've indicated that U obviously anybody can hate anybody in a general sense yes do abuse children tend to hate their parents they they generally do not hate their parents and is there any anything that your examination in this case has turned up that indicates that Eric Mendez hated his parents no there's no information that I could find in this case that he hated his parents there are indications of things that were he did not like we certainly have had that identified but in terms of the word hate no Mrs banich had asked her yesterday about the 21,000 homicides or so that were reported in the crime classification manual yes uh and are you familiar with the generally the way statistically homicides break down in this country in other words one of the most common kinds versus one of the more rare kinds yes and what's the most common kind of homicide most you've indicated that there are crime scenes that talk about domestic homicides yes true is it not that most homicides occur between people who know each other that is true and with respect to domestic homicides on Investigation does it appear that those are usually related to family issues yes sustained uh proper Foundation are you aware of the of the literature on children who kill their parents yes is there is there literature on that subject so-call parasite cases yes there is and is it current with in the um professional Community to which you belong um to look at cases involving parasites from the perspective of potential child abuse yes she's saying paraside not parasite as the uh wonderful AI generated captions are telling us it's important factor now based on what you understand about the effects of abuse on children is it a in your opinion a rational model to talk about an abused child simply deciding one morning that he's had enough of it and he hates his parents and I think all of them objection proper you know of any model where an abused child can completely separate himself from his whole history of abuse um and make an independent determination that he hates his parents sustained it's also ambiguous unintelligible question anything else and you don't like it okay I get the message it's enough to know that you're not going to be to ask that one well I figured another one I S I sort of kind of got that message I B what evidence uh did you what evidence have you well strike this you've indicated that there's nothing in what you've examined that indicates that Eric mendas hated his parents is there evidence to the contrary yes there's evidence to the contrary very much so and that he loved his parents that he loved his parents yes and what's the evidence to support that notion the proper opinion which which opinion was that love evidence to support her opinion love all right that was two questions ago this is another one asking for the basis of the opinion right I'm OB to the basis of all right well the objection should have been to the opinion not to the basis of it objection overrule at this point go ahead okay there is evidence to the contrary that um indeed uh Eric Menendez did love his parents that he lived up wanted to live up to the family values that he wanted to do well by the family and even after their deaths there has been continued uh focus on being able to uh love his parents and to even want to uh memorialize that so that I think that that is an important point that he did not uh hate his parents but indeed love them thank you Dr B have nothing further on all right we'll take a recess until 3:00 12 minutes uh a matter with a witness was there any further questioning by all right so this part I believe is the um there's going to be some questioning not in front of the jury so I think this is where it switches the defense in regards to this issue the issue issue has to do with signific interational okayu information have IND that raed family was you have to speak up a little bit where there was um physical abuse by her father uh against her mother that she witnessed yes and uh is there information that you received that this abusive pattern in the family persisted for many many years yes and what significance would you place on that well the significance I place on that is that the factor that she witnessed this that it was known in the family uh would would put her in the position of developing some response to that and learning from that and that that very well could and would influence her behavior with her in her own family and influence her behavior in what way in terms of not being able to protect well does it mean that she would necessarily be an abuser does it mean that she would tolerate abuse well in the witnessing of the event what happens is the child gets to see both the victim and the abuser so the potential for being able to identify with both is there so it does have a higher potential for her to go either way either not being able to protect or of actually inflicting injury herself to her children would that explain conduct of hers that it's been reported to you that she both did not protect the children from other from abuse by the father and abuse them herself yes and would that information or has that information about her own family life was that a factor that you look to to corroborate the reports of abuse that you received however directly or indirectly but that were emanating from both the brothers and from other Witnesses yes and was it a significant corroborating Factor it was a significant corroborating factor and is it that kind of corroborating factor that you look for in Every Family evaluation yes would it be significant for uh as corroborating factors if you knew that in Kidman IND as his family her father would beat her brother her mother would intervene and her mother got beaten for intervening and then her mother stopped intervening would that be a significant factor in assessing why Kitty Mendez may have been emotionally unavailable to her own son in a similar situation yes that gives even more detail more precise detail on Whose behavior and what the response is yes remember she said we model our parents we do the same behavior as our parents do so it makes sense that if Kitty's mom stopped intervening BBE Kitty said I don't need to intervene because I don't want that happening to me because I've seen it happen because she learned from their traa and are you familiar with information from Eric Mendez that his mother would when frustrated with him particularly over school work issues pull his hair and call him dummy yes and would it be significant for you in corroborating that information from him if you learned that uh Kitty menendez's mother did the exact same thing to her pulled her hair and called her dummy and Eric Mendez was not even born then and couldn't have seen it yes that's important would there be any significance to you in corroborating the reports of abuse that were received from the Menendez brothers and the reports of their mother's Behavior if it was known that her own mother drank and there was a serious problem with alcohol and her own family yes that's an important factor would it be significant to you in corroborating the statements made by Eric Mendez to you about his and by L Mendez about their mother's unwillingness to consider divorce no matter how miserable she was that she was taught by her mother that divorce was an absolutely unacceptable alternative because of the grief that a divorce caused her own mother yes not only the grief but what she saw happening to her mother after the father left what did she see happening to her mother after her father left well the mother had a nervous breakdown was hospitalized they were serious after math from that U dissolution of the marriage and would that reinforce um the notion that kitty Mendez therefore herself would not provide any escape from the family situation for either herself or her children yes and would that therefore corroborate U the Menendez brothers when they testified that their mother refused to even consider leaving their father refused to escape yes I have nothing for your own on in this motion all right the prosecution inire yes Dr bges um were you able to talk to Mrs mandz to ask her how she felt about these things you weren't were you I'm going object to that question sus specious an argument your objection takes more time than the witnesses response saying no so let's get on with it still an objection that's true but it's wasting time it's not in front of the jury appearing to decide whether this how many stupid objections were there just from the prosecution during this video that we watched that were pointless and dumb and all she needed to do was like change a word and she did then she could ask the question and now the first question out of the prosecutor's mouth is some dumb question that obviously she has to answer no to and and she can't even object to it that's BS T let's get out it no okay you are extrapolating what you think her state of mind would have been based upon information given to you by other people correct I'm looking at the behavior and the acts and the description of the acts of what occurred okay you're talking about her behavior or the behavior of other people in her presence you talking about about both both okay the information that you got about the family history came from her relatives is that correct that is correct her sister her sister did you talk to her brothers uh no I did not talk to her brothers if Kitty mandez had grown up in a in a non-abusive household would that change your opinion as to whether or not Eric mandez was abused uh not whether he was abused it can still be abused without having grown up in a family of abuse so in other words Kitty mandez could have been an abusive or per or allowed abuse to occur in her home whether or not she grew up in abusive home herself well it's more unlikely than not that she would she would have protected the um Sons okay now you have no evidence to suggest Mr mandez who have an abusive home do you not in an abusive home no and you have no evidence to suggest that either Mrs or Mr mandez have been sexually abused his children correct that's correct okay does are you willing to testify in court that the absence of sexual abuse by the parents means that they are less likely to have been child molesters themselves I'm going to De for the question because I don't think that's appropriate testimony is not a matter of her willingness do you understand the question no I really like to reframe it okay the fact that Mr and Mrs mandes appear to have no history of having been abused abused sexually would your opinion as to whether or not Mr mandez for instance was sexually abusing his son Eric change because of that fact well no not because of that fact because in these kinds of families it's very rare that you're going to get them to disclose that so just because there's no report doesn't mean that it didn't happen but you have no you have no way of proving any intergenerational sexual child abuse on the part of Mr men's family correct that's correct okay so what you're saying then is that is that in your opinion um the presence of the physically abusive family in Kitty Mendes's past would have caused her to behave a certain way correct well her past uh provides her the opportunity to see what goes on on and abusive family and how the parents who she's as a child is watching how they behave and that very much affects how a child develops their own ability to deal in such a situation if it occurs now people who are raised in Abus of homes are able to break the pattern of abuse correct that has been noted yes okay and if Mrs Menendez had not if Mrs Menendez had not been raised an abuse of home it would not change your opinion as to whether or not Eric Mendez had been abused and I'm using abuse generically in the three ways right no it doesn't change the fact that he was abused and it doesn't change your back up the fact that he was abused is not for you to say right okay could you repeat your question well that was also her answer that was good questione with the absence of intergenerational abuse in Mrs manda's family change your opinion as to her behavior in other words would you be less likely to believe that she was allowed these things to go on in the home or that she countenanced the beating of her children the sexual mation of her children well the intergenerational abuse explains her behavior in all of those things youve just identified in her inability to be able to protect her son but if she had not received such abuse would that cause you to change your opinion that she that these things occurred but she did so it's hard to say that she didn't I mean that's asking it in the reverse okay the fact that there's no evidence suggest Jose Menendez came from an abusive family and I'm using abuse generically does that change your opinion or affect your opinion as to whether or not he was engaged in this kind of behavior well the family that he came from is a very important part of this because while there is no documented amount of abuse the the um discipline and so forth and the favoritism that shown him does play a very important part in this so that family pattern are critical to the way people then move into their own families okay but my question is the fact that you have no evidence to support the notion of intergenerational abuse in Jose menendez's family that does not change your opinion about Jose Menendez does it as an abuser no all right so the intergenerational abuse Theory as far as he's concerned doesn't change your opinion right but I've said there are other factors that go on when always takes a careful history as far back as they possibly can to see what are the factors that are involved of which abuse is certainly one very critical part of it and I believe that the sole source of your information as to Mrs men's family were was her sister her sister and interviews yes okay but not the brothers um the brothers I think there were interviews and and those you considered this intergenerational abuse yes I considered all the information I had available to review all right I have no further questions did you also consider the information escap Dr Summerfield about her childhood oh yes did you also consider the interview with her cousin where her cousin observed the father beating the mother and the mother not wearing underwear when she hit the floor yes and with respect to Mr menendez's family is family history important even if it isn't a history that shows that a child was abuse yes it is very important with respect to Jose menendez's family what are the significant factors that you saw in his upbringing that corroborates what uh the history of abuse that other Witnesses have given well some of the factors that are involved in his upbringing have to do with his relationship with his mother in terms of being favored and the father and the Father the father's role in and the mother's role um those are are critical uh he did leave home at an early age um to come to America U then he in terms of um his upbringing continued but there were factors about his um some of his behavior in Cuba uh his being I think U expelled or sent out of schools and things like that that's all important information has to be considered so it isn't just intergenerational abuse it's intergenerational patterns and models and and and just the way people are raised can corroborate tend to corroborate later claims that they acted in Conformity with those early behaviors yeah because you can never guarantee that abuse hasn't occurred just because nobody reports it with respect to Mr Menendez and the way that he was raised the absence of evidence doesn't necessarily mean that it didn't happen um is it relevant for this incredible people have described him as being extremely egomaniacal and very overly self-confident and very arrogant are there things that you see in his childhood that support someone developing those personality trait are you now uh stating the defense intends to offer the background of Jose Menendez his upbringing as uh evidence uh to be brought before this jury as well well you're on I haven't decided whether I explicitly want to bring it out but I just want the court to understand the significance of looking at family history period whether it's to see abuse or whether it's to see if you will spoiling either way the point is that it makes people what they are and that corroborates when other people say they act in Conformity with those personalities well the court is trying to ascertain whether or not you intend to introduce this evidence as well well I would like to introduce the evidence of what um how Jose Menendez appears to have been treated in his family that could explain his particular personality Matrix all right and um again um Dr bur you say it's important to have all this information important in what context what would you be doing with all this information you're looking for explanations for uh what has occurred for what purpose what purpose because of well the search shows us there are linkages to these kinds of behaviors that can be noted and this is for the purpose of treatment of the individuals involved well first you have to verify and then yes treatment is an important uh part okay and that's why you want to get all this information for the purpose of treatment I'm going Council I'm asking the questions and it's appropriate question so I'm the court is leading objection over well it would depend what your task is I mean it really would be considered irresponsible not to get that kind of information for an evaluation report okay and um you do all sorts of evaluations for different purposes yes and one of those purposes is to um uh evaluate uh individuals who have been victimized for the purpose of treating them whatever they've suffered as a result of the victimization that's correct okay and um in regards to Mrs Menendez um you accept it as true um certain information that you received in some interviews that were conducted of her relatives is that right yes I did okay and also accepted as true certain information in uh some psychiatric notes that were prepared or psychological uh notes that were prepared by a psychologist is that right yes I did okay and um did you consider those and making any decisions as to the uh opinions you've expressed relating to whether or not Eric Menendez um had been sexually abused yes I did and uh in what way did you consider that well I considered it in terms of what had his uh parents had had as prior background and to explain why specifically the mother's Behavior as well as perhaps the father's behavior and once you have some understanding of that it is a it's an important factor in coming to a conclusion or an opinion uh opinion about what opinion about abuse about whether somebody has been abused or not and you've indicated in your examination um by the prosecution that uh as far as your opinion that Eric mandes have been abused abused that would be your opinion regardless of whether you had this information about the mother or Father's upbringing is that correct well I took it into consideration so I I've already done that I'm not sure I would I'd have to go back and separate out whether it wouldn't be a factor well you answered earlier that uh you would have had the same opinion anyway well what what's important is that the mother is unable to intervene and that this doesn't stop so it does now become a continuing U pattern and that's very important as to why it continues and why U the events keep escalating well is the significance to you the fact that the mother did not intervene or the fact that the mother had some upbringing that uh resulted in her not intervening well her upbringing was one of the factors in her not being able to intervene because of not only what she witnessed but also how she formulated her her behavior for in for being in a family but as far as your opinion as to whether or not the defended arendes have been abused the important thing for you or in making a evaluation or an evaluation was that the mother did not intervene was that correct well that's one of the important factors yes okay and whether she had been abused or not abused as a child or whether she had witnessed abuse rather as a child um uh didn't matter as far as uh determining whether or not she intervene or did not intervene no I felt it didn't matter in what way because it allowed her to look at both situations and she saw what the outcome was for her mother and she learned the message that the mother had and that really set her into Motion in terms of her own behavior all right that's your opinion as to why she did not intervene is that right that's correct okay but as far as whether Eric mendz had been molested uh is it not the significant feature of the situation that uh she did not intervene as opposed to why she did not intervene well it's not only that she didn't intervene but she also facilitated I mean that whole um factor is the father that is the abuser but she in many ways supports this by not intervening so the collaborative kind of aspect comes in and again the significant feature was that she did not intervene you're I'm going to well she doesn't stop it yes is that a commment feature for you yes all right yes Dr B just because sexual molestation and abuse are never witnessed how important is it to have corroborative details before you will formulate an opinion that someone was sexually molested well you need that is very important to have that okay if you had a report that kitty Mendez came from a perfect happy childhood okay with a perfectly non-abusive family would that have made it harder if not impossible for you to accept the fact that what Eric Mendez was telling you about his mother's non-intervention in 12 years of sexual molestation was true yes it would and break that down and have that question right back and read the question back please question if you had report that kitty menes came from a perfect happy childhood okay with a perfectly non abusive family that that have made a harder it's not impossible for you to accept the fact that what erices was telling you about his mother's non- intervention in 12 years of sexual was true right would that have made it impossible you for me to believe that it would very hard for me to believe it I don't know absolutely impossible but certainly puts a whole different aspect to it so the key factor for you in deciding that the mother acted the way she did and that this molestation occurred was the mother's background upbringing to explain her behavior in this matter now it's true Dr burges isn't it that not all abuse is intergenerational because somebody's got to started somewhere that's correct and with respect to Jose Menendez as a child molester um I take it it was not necessary for you to determine as a matter of fact that he was molested as a child before you could accept that he might himself have molested his son that's true uh but he is the perpetrator correct that's correct is it more uh important to try to understand on some level why a non- perpetrator of the abuse such as the mother would tolerate what is clearly morally wrong Behavior yes and is that why the mother's background in tolerating abuse is so important yes now you understand when you're doing an evaluation for forensic purposes The credibility becomes the critical issue not treatment yes you're not going to treat Eric Mendez for anything that happened to him no I'm not and you understand that having put 50 hours into this your reputation is on the line as well your credibility yes it is and is that why a corroborating Factor like this is of such significance and and you also testified did you not that you look at reports based on the context Eric Mendez is in jail charged with murder doesn't that make you scrutinize everything he says even more very much so yes so more than when you're just evaluating a potential patient for treatment aren't these corroborative facts even more critical yes um do you want to ask a question the court of La C Council to ask a question because I can't read his hand writing and I think he wants to ask something uh yes this was a hearing that um involves L as well sure two questions you said that the basis for your opinion about intergenerational abuse was number one the family history provided to you and the second basis was the therapy notes of kidy Menendez is therapist yes are those two sources of information that is family history from relatives and therapy notes of Mrs Menendez the kind of information which experts in your field that is a field of child child abuse typically and normally rely upon in forming opinions about whether someone has been molested or not well you may not always get that kind of of information but it certainly is critical to have if you can get it Y and is it something that you reasonably r yes all right did the prosecution have any questions along these lines no it doesn't lead me to the conclusion but it is a very supportive Factor as I look at all of the information I think that the the example where if it was not there and there was no other way to explain this um statements from the defendant would have been um I had to would sift through very differently but what because it was there was very important and it that no I'm not sure I said it wouldn't have been I said it would have been difficult I think that's what I just tried to answer is without that information it would be very hard to put together other aspects of why this happened it's corroborating in other words the presence of it is a corroborating factor I have nothing for that all right anything else oh is he here he's here all right how long would that take all right I'll be glad to hear that let's expedite it and go through as quickly as we can so that so because we were just in front of Eric all day they want to bring Lyle in because they have some questions for Dr Burgess here concerned that we would end up in a trial of events that occurred 40 or more years ago that uh will be subject to dispute and controversy and just take a lot of time and prove very little and in this context it doesn't seem like it's proving a very much listening to the offers appr proof yesterday I just don't find that the it uh is uh an area of expert testimony that would justify uh the consumption of time here that support position I don't think that the area should be um asked about At All by anyone anymore and whatever the of record is it is and that the defense should not first of all asking a question like intergenerational abuse when abuse can Encompass three separate types is misleading and um that would could imply to the jury that a sexual abuse that she was sexually abused and there is no such evidence that she was I can ask a very specific question did you find a history of intergenerational physical and psychological abuse in the F the child family of Mary L Menendez and that can be the question okay but she was not the one who was abused and that's a misleading that the theologically abused certainly well you know but it's much different than what your uh offer proof here is has been or your evence has been as far as the defendants and their upbringing it's entirely different well we this judge knows nothing about abuse doesn't care about the effects of abuse and he couldn't give two [ __ ] about learning he just want sorry for my language he does not care he I think he's showing a little bit of his is here that he thinks these boys probably like he doesn't care that abuses generational we know this this is so how this doesn't come in I don't understand I'm confus she just happen to be sitting there and watching uh some watch a few incidents whatever it is that occurred between her mother and father and that was it she also saw incidents between her father and brothers that were violent and I mean there's plenty of research including that of the prosecutions expert Dr F that who f eth one of their expert witnesses that children viewing violence are as affected by it as if it is inflicted upon them that's another wellestablished body of trauma research so I mean I think that uh from the standpoint of the reasons why these intergenerational patterns have significance the fact that it tends to the children of such households either tend to personally perpetuate abuse in their own homes or to tolerate it because it was the norm and the and the model it doesn't matter if the abuse is inflicted upon them personally so long as they know what's going on all right let me just say this I'll go one step further then uh that in looking at uh the evidence listening to it and reviewing the briefs filed by both sides on the subject it was more in relationship to the psych psychiatric or psychological evaluations of the mother but the issues are pretty much the same as it relates to this there wasn't a specific brief file by the uh parties on this subject but the brief file by the parties relating to the mother's therapists uh really deal with the same subject this is basically uh to or to a great extent character evidence that the defense is offering trying to show that the mother behaved a certain way because of some incidents that occurred in her childhood and uh the court finds that this is an improper opinion evidence by the expert is not appropriate uh insufficient basis for it it is absolutely 100% appropriate relevant this judge is very biased against abuse apparently u based on the offer of proof and also under Section 352 of the evidence code the potential for confusion of issues UND consumption of time um and misleading the jury is such that the court will sustain the objection to its reference at all uh in the uh testimony of the witness I would like that it is it is a very remarkable finding for the court to say it's improper opinion evidence when it is a standard inquiry in every examination of family history and psychological cont there I'm not talking about what is done in a psychiatric office or in uh uh institution that deals with counseling children of child or children who have suffered child abuse we're talking about evidence in a trial and it's different and the different rules apply and what the defense is trying to do is introduce everything that uh is used in other fors for other purposes in this trial and that's uh the rules are different here and the evidence code and the Court's uh obligation to uh apply the Rules of Evidence to this trial are different would occur in a therapy session I don't think it has to do with a therapy session may your honor it has to do with with um it has to do with with whether or not in an evaluative process and that's what this witness's credibility is an issue on whether she's conducted a professionally adequate evaluation so that her opinions have validity and credibility and what she is saying what Dr Ki testified to is that it's a very significant factor in the evaluation process not in the treatment they they could say that they considered it and uh that's it they considered the upbringing of the the parents or the mother whichever way however you want to phrase it don't phrase it longine of characterizing it as intergenerational abuse then can I ask if she considered it did it support her conclusion just that and don't when you say it how are you phrase it so it doesn't get into history of her childhood family okay and nothing else okay and I don't think that opens the door to the father's family and his history because it doesn't prove or disprove anything all right anything else now before we uh proceed with the jury oh there was the issue that uh the the isue that we two things one was a screenplay which we can do briefly with testimonies so we're going to have that with a witness and then the other is the um uh people's request to use reference to uh the book written by Mr monus uh or portions of it during cross-examination of the witness the court did read those particular portions of the book and um although there are some broad uh uh similarities to um some features of the defendant's testimony to some of uh the accounts in that portion of the book it seems to me that uh it's very general and uh not such specific uh similarities to justify in any fashion reference to that book there's no showing in any way that that uh book or its contents in any way has influenced the defendant's testimony or account of the events so the defense objection to it is sustain may I Comm to inquire about the availability without going into specif specifics of anecdotal literature on the issue of child abuse say availability I don't know what mean I'm talking about that that in the last 10 years there's been a great deal written about child abuse in the in the literature I was going to ask her about um what the different journals are that have propped up in the last 10 years um and the fact well I think it's irrelevant if you're going to leave it at that because because obviously people know that the defendants had no access to that material or they be in here with the sheriff's support anding what was in your Sal well it's certainly uh proper uh cross-examination of an expert to uh discuss materials that are available uh to The Experts um I don't know exactly where the prosecution want to go with it beyond that um you can certainly cross-examine her on that subject um she has no way of knowing whether any of this was available to the defendant anything else yeah I'm not sure what is the nature of the inquiry we're about to conduct Visa the screenplay there was uh to be examination as to whether she uh was aware of it considered it and things of that nature so I could have some basis to determine whether or not it's an area that uh should any way be uh discussed since it certainly does have the potential of great consumption of time as we discussed before I think it falls into the same category frankly your honor as the Craig heinberg material I mean um well let me hear the brief examination of the witness uh you would get back on witness stand please just for this all right um I'll remind you you're still under oath um did people wish to inquire yes yes yes no I did notz refr for ideation yes would you tell ideation issues this is the on scope this year no this was what we had discussed yesterday you had objected to the word ivation and had some concern about what it meant so she's exam on this ideation is a um psychiatric or psychological term that refers to thoughts contained in a piece of material such as a note would um a screenplay be a piece of material that is a note um that would be no I would not see that as as in any way similar to a note why not um because it has a very different purpose I see it as having very different purposes something that's written as a note versus something that's has a different goal of of a whatever it's being proded uced four all right did you ever discuss a screenplay with the defendant no I did not okay so basically the court will permit you to ask whether she uh read any screen plays written by the defendant whether she discussed it with him and that should be the extent of it so everything else would be extraneous to that and if there is something in the testimony for the prosecution experts that deals with this then we can do it outside the presence of the jury but I don't see any reason to consume any more time with this witness on the subject all right anything else now before the jury comes in I don't have anything else all right we'll have the uh jury come in and um then we'll proceed all right and that's where we're going to leave it so join me again on Thursday for the final part of Dr Anne Burgess well she she'll wrap up her testimony we'll have some cross examination and some redirect and then she'll be done and then we can move on to some more experts and other Witnesses in this case so um let me know what you guys think I think this today's testimony was really excellent in the way that she built up the narrative that you know it's a progression and how these things can happen because a lot of the problem with like I said all of these things happening is that it's not being discussed not being talked about so people don't know the specifics so once she comes out and tells you well this is how it could happen it starts with the touching you know drying them off after the pool and then it starts with a massage and you know she really explained it well I thought in my opinion how these things can happen and how it affects the parent and child relationship and she even said like they don't hate their parents they still love their parents and want the approval of their parents that's why it's so mop it's so psychologically uh offensive to do to somebody because it really can uh stunt your development psychologic and you're never going to be the same and that's why these things are so awful but like I said we need to talk about them so let me know in the comments below what you guys think what do you guys think of Ann burges isn't she just an excellent witness I thought she was um so let me know and I will see you guys on Thursday for part 4 of Dr Anne Burgess take care guys thanks for watching bye now if you've been impacted by a true crime and would like your story told in your own words or if you or someone you know has been wrongfully convicted or accused of a crime please write to crime and Court channel@ gmail.com and tell us your real true crime encounters thanks for watching [Music]