Trial Rewatch | Menendez Brothers: Lyle Menendez Direct - Part 1 (CA vs Erik & Lyle Menendez)

[Music] hello hello welcome to crime in court my name is Heather and this is the 1993 Menda Brothers trial we are re-watching the trial of the boys Eric and Lyall Menendez who are on trial for the homicides of their parents Jose and kitty who maltreated them horribly so this is more of a case of was it self-defense or wasn't it so um that is their defense they believe that uh they it out of fear that or they not just believe that but you know that is what the therapists have said many many therapists have come on the stand expert Witnesses for the defense and talking about the effects of severe Mal treatment growing up in that household what it could do to your psyche all sorts of horrible horrible things so we are finally through the defenses case except for the testimony of Lyle and Eric so today we are um finally here at uh Eric or or sorry we're going to do Lyall first in order of their birth we're going to go with Lyle first who is the oldest and then we will go with Eric and um dissect it as we go along so um here we go [Applause] your full name and spell your last name Joseph Lyle Menendez me n n DZ Mr Menendez are you related to Eric Galen Menendez who's seated here he's my brother and were your parents Mary Louise Menendez and Jose Menendez yes and were you born January 10th 1968 I was if you look to the right you will see various photographs of homes that you lived in um do you recognize that uh chartis something you've seen before yeah do you remember the Westford Terrace home in which you are pictured in a bassinet the one in New York no I don't and do you remember Cedar Grove New Jersey the second photograph no is the first home you remember Hinsdale Illinois yes for the we have please so I do want to point out that is also com common for children who grew up Mal treated or um who experienc some kind of Mal treatment that they block it out or um you know lose that part of their memory or they lose sections of their memory that might be not necessarily related to the Mal treatment but around that time frame so if the maltreatment happened when you're eight you might not remember a whole bunch of things around that time frame of when you were eight not just the Mal treatment itself but you know living in that house you might have blocked out everything from eight and younger you know memory Works a really strange way and it helps to protect you and sometimes that way of protecting you is by blocking out certain memories so I just wanted to point that out since he didn't remember a couple the houses that he lived in although he could have just been too young but I don't know well we'll get it later on that's the exhibit that um has uh photographs various houses in it thank you man thank you can you remember when you lived in hensdale Illinois yes and what do you remember from that point in time do you remember your father Yes what do you remember about your dad from that period in time um I remember uh in the winter and uh I I remember lots of things from do you have any particular good memories of your dad at that point in time yes could you tell us one I remember the little dog tress was a puppy at that time I remember um her and my dad playing in the snow and me running out to my dad and uh jumping on him and playing in the snow uh I remember riding my bike did your Aunt Terry and Uncle Carlos live nearby they lived across the street and did they uh did you used to ride your bike over to their house yes and do you remember your little brother living in that house with you yes and do you remember anything with regard to your little brother and him going over to your aunt and uncle's house I remember going over to get him when my mom told me he was over there he wasn't supposed to be we heard testimony from the aunt and the uncle that um he would sometimes walk over there uh in the mornings or at night and um he'd be missing and the family would be wondering where he went and he went to his uncle's house his aunt and uncle's house which was just across the street so apparently Lyall would have to go get him go get him and bring him back and do you have good memories of your mother also can you remember anything good about your mother yes what do you remember that's good about your mother I remember in this house no not necessarily why don't you try to focus a little bit do you have a something in particular that stands out in your mind that's a good memory of your mother I remember Christmases her she was always up it seemed and she would be up uh when I got up and um then she would take us down to open the presents even though my dad would sleep in so we got to do that that was usually a nice day I'm surprised Jose was like yeah sure have your Christmas without me what I'm surprised just for the fact that he likes to control everything so I'm surprised he wasn't there to like watch everything and control it all so it's yeah plus being somewhat of a narciss or having some kind of personality disorder being left out of the family event would probably enrage him is my thought I would think he would get mad about that but that's just me what do you guys think and uh I remember her taking care of the birds um that would hit the window with especially this especially in m the birds would hit the window and be kind of like hurt or wounded in some way and she would put them in a special cage she had for birds that did that and she was just amazing with the birds so she nursed birds back to health but she was a crappy human to her and a crappy mother crappy human and a crappy mother to her children but she could nurse birds back to life that's fine I remember watching did you love your mom and dad yes and on August 20th is it weird she shows more affection to the birds than she does her own son I mean Sons both of them 1989 did you and your brother kill your mother and father yes did you kill them for money answer no did you kill them because you wanted to pay them back for the way they had treated you excuse me I that overall no why did you kill your parents cuz we were afraid we were afraid do you have a lot of nice memories from your childhood no did you get to spend time at your grandparents house yes and was this your father's mother and father that yes yes what was good about being at your grandparents house everything was good about it um my grandmother was wonderful and we stayed in bed all day and watched TV and U just be like a never ending stream of foods that we weren't supposed to eat and we watch the that is what grandmar are for right I mean spoil them give them good food give them I mean not not good for you food but good tasting food and like the candy and the sugars and you know the the mac and cheese and the stuff that you're not supposed to eat all the time pizza but all the good stuff that we still eat as an adult but just not as much anyways that's what grandparents are for right and it sounds like he has some really he's tearing up in his eye you can see uh the um way it's glistening in the light he's tearing up about good times he had at his grandparents he probably found his grandparents house to be like his only place of safety when you know he didn't have that in his household so going to his parent his grandparents like he just said they slept all day they binged TV so they were able to be kids they were able to have a normal a sense of a normal childhood when they stay at their grandparents which is exactly what they needed they needed that comfort and love from their grandparents and support and they didn't get that from their parents so it feels very this emotion's very raw and I'm not speeding up the boy testimony because I don't feel like it would be in character with you know I've sped up everything else because these you know it's a long ass trial and I like to watch things um up so I apologize for those who like it a little slower you can always slow it down on the gear the little gear icon um however I for the boys testimony I always call them the boys and I feel so bad because they're grown men like older than me but now they look they're memorialized as these young kids still um but or kid to me anyone in their 20s is still a kid even though they're adults right now but anyways so yeah so it just it looks painful and it and these emotions are raw um so yeah I just wanted to point that out uh my grandfather would come in whenever The Untouchables came on we would watch that and it would be a big deal then we'd go out and uh the house was great she had a magnolia tree outside we'd climb up that uh play with her in that and being boy to be little patio the thing that they didn't get to do at all with their family that whenever they had free time they were always playing tennis or swimming or doing some kind of sport or recreational activity that their dad put them up to or approved of this is totally different they get to climb trees they get to play with squirrels they would you know eat whatever junk food they wanted sleep in this sounds like a great memory that was enclosed and uh the squirrels would be jumping from tree to tree and my grandfather would laugh and tell us stories and we'd watch that we'd go to garage sales with my grandmother um there's lots of things was this different he had more good memories I just want to point out he was very like he easily could come up with good memories with his grandparents many many and he could keep going he was still going um but with his parents he struggled for a good memory just you know if you missed it go back and and watch it again he really did kind of struggle to come up with good memories about his parents whereas his grandparents oh yeah they did this we did that together look at all the things we did whereas because there's examples of good memories that he has right but with his parents he didn't it wasn't fun living in that house it was more if anything it was the opposite of fun whatever that is from the life you had in your own home it's like a different world for my house different world you said you have some memories of the hensdale home you remember riding your bike and bringing your brother back um you were about 4 years old when you moved out of hensdale is that right yes and then you moved to myy is that correct yes and once you moved to myy did Sports become an important part of your life well they were everything to my dad and that was my whole life at that time and was doing what your father wanted of you important that's what made him happy and that's what I wanted to do why' you want to make him happy so he would love me so he would love me I wanted to make him happy so he would love me that's conditional love That's not healthy normal relationships especially a parent is supposed to selflessly love a child and always and not necessarily ask for it back in return you know it's supposed to be selfless especially a parent to a child whereas in this household he had to work for his parents' love and and affection well no he didn't even get affection he got attention he had to do what he did for his attention from his dad because his dad didn't really show love his dad showed it by um always yelling at them setting them aside and being in their face and giving them a good talking to while they just sat there and listened and things like that so he was and and make him answer Rivia questions during uh dinner time they would have Jose would ask questions of the boys constantly during dinner time it wasn't like a nice family relaxing meal it was Jose would ask the boys to go and find this answer for something and then the first one wins whatever they win I don't know but probably Jose's affection or attention for that night and I don't mean that night like that I just meant like that evening and then um because as far as I know the um abuse with Lyle ended when he was young and then it started with Eric and so he stopped with Lyle and then Lyall that's why Lyle was so angry because he didn't know that he was doing it to the brother and um not just angry but you know scared for their lives that this man was always going to control and abuse and take advantage of them and manipulate them and hurt them so uh it was he was fearful anyways sorry I I went out a rant what's the first sport you remember conditional conditional love from his father so he had to play these Sports in order to receive love and attention from his dad good positive attention remember getting involved in on an organized basis swimming how old were you when you started swimming I think four years old and was this uh just a matter of going to the pool and swimming uh for fun or was this more organized no we had a a coach and my mom would take us and in the winters we would go indoors and practice with the older kids or actually that was just me at that point eventually my brother and I and is this something where you had uh half hour lesson every week or was it more frequent than that in the summer was every day and in the spring probably almost every day but in in the winter it was whenever the classes were that the practices was just like three times a week three times a week um and then sometimes my dad would take me uh on his own now when your dad would take you on his own was it the same type of training session that you'd have with swimming teachers or was it different it was very different cuz swimming basically the coach just is calling out the the laps or the kind of things that you should do and he might occasionally come over and help someone that's having a problem with a particular stroke or um something of that sort but uh with my dad he it was very uh you it was one-onone and he stay in the pool with me and swim next to me and sometimes we would play or it would just be him and I for usually they gave you an hour it was like hour free time swimming and I would take that time to train with my dad and were these good times for you or bad times so sometimes it was good and sometimes it was bad and what was it like when it was bad well do want to talk about it I didn't really like the swimming and sometimes uh he was rough with the swimming what do you mean he was rough with the swimming I'm sorry ja over ask a question he was it was uh like they were just drills and I would swim laps and sometimes he would just yank me out of the water uh by my hair and he would shake you and he would he took it very very seriously um yank him by the head he you know he was training to be an Olympic swimmer at one point and so he had all kinds of different methods and how to expand your lung lungs and how long I should be able to hold my breath and we practiced him holding me under the water how long I could take it um what do you mean how long you could take it would he say I'm going to hold you under for 30 seconds and then you go under or what would that be like we would go under and I would fight him to get air and then he would give me air and we would keep doing that and I would be able to do it less and less time and are you freaking kidding me what he would hold him under water while Lyall fought to get air to come back up and Jose would hold him down are you freaking kidding me wow I mean I don't even know what to say to that that is horrific why he doesn't want to talk about it it's horrific it's traum traumatizing it was very rough and uh what do you mean you would fight him to get air I would just push away from him or pinch him or do whatever I could hit him underwater my dad was unaffected by all that so it didn't that's what he wanted me to do he wanted me to fight to get air so that I could go beyond what I would normally just take if he said stay underwater as long as you could what a piece of [ __ ] what a piece of crap his father is he liked the fight he liked the struggle I guarantee he liked it because he was in control so gross I don't understand people like him users like this I just don't get it and this would expand my lungs um and there were other things uh that made it for me rough but and I just was so nervous about swimming it wasn't just my dad either just the the practices themselves made me very nervous um the older kids would be the guy would be blowing whistles and you would have to dive in and I didn't like the water it's just it was always very cold and uh it was for some reason I didn't like it when your dad would hold you under and make you fight to get air how would you feel when you finally got up to the surface just relieved to get air would you physically have any effects uh I would be crying this would be very rough like I said and uh what did your dad do when you'd come up crying take a short break we usually wait 30 seconds or so we do it again and how many times would you do these lung expanding exercises the that way we wouldn't do it too many times uh and we would try to do it a couple times a week and then we would test a couple times a week if I could go farther like swim a whole lap underwater and then come back and how far I would get and we would try to go farther this is a really good example of how Jose was abusive about everything just you know in in general how he was abusive not just that he did what he did to Eric behind closed doors but in general he liked the control he liked having that person you know dependent on him I think for life for his air I mean how sick is that it's really messed up and that's your child and what ages were you when these exercises were going on um not sure but by like between like 6 and till about 10: I would say maybe a little bit longer and do you have any other memories of swimming that are painful for you I really the whole thing was very bad for me and uh mostly I remember pleading with my mother not to take me um stalling so I would be late uh incredible stomach uh aches I think from the nerves um or I would be nauseous and uh I would vomit what would your mom say when you'd ask her to not make you go see what just say get ready let's go and she would always threaten me with telling my dad but when it came to the swimming um I was pretty resistant I didn't seem to care as much as I did normally I was pretty crazed about the swimming made me so nauseous and nervous the drilling the intensity the underwater stuff was very hard for me I remember um Purp purposely swimming into uh the wall in practice so that I would be injured so that the coach would say okay you can sit in the locker room and miss the afternoon sessions and I would do all kinds of things to anything to get out of was there any particular reason that swimming was so important you said your father had trained well my grandmother um I had heard was a champion swimmer um my even my dad's sisters who were less in the sports were very good swimmers and he was training to be an Olympic swimmer at the time that he had to leave Cuba and uh he felt he could have gone all the way and at least in the beginning he felt that I could um and then that just clearly wasn't going to be did you start playing soccer at some point in time yes how old were you I was uh I know my grandfather's was out there with my dad working with me by the time I was five also did you like soccer I really like soccer deor I have three pictures I'd like to put up which have already been marked the exhibits 192 193 and 194 by the approach and also perhaps you can identify the exhibit by the number on that that we've had reference to already this is exhibit 148 a look at him how long did you play soccer until I was in my 11 years old between almost 12 was your dad as involved in your soccer playing as he was in your swimming yes and what kind of involvement did you have or did he have with your soccer just coming to the games or was he more involved in that no my dad was there um whenever I played soccer uh which we usually reserved for when he was there cuz it was technical for him he had certain way he wanted me to play and uh didn't feel it was productive for me just to be kicking a ball around when he wasn't there so soccer I waited till he was around now when you were playing soccer I presumed there was a coach not when I was five but eventually there was like by the time I was seven I would think and once you were on an organized team with a coach did your dad's involvement stop no what how would your dad behave when you were playing organized soccer um in practices he would uh be very involved and the coaches would allow that um pretty much it would be like a private lesson with him and then the team was playing also um and uh you know he would be yelling things from the sidelines sometimes he would come out and the coach just just let [Music] him all these coaches for all these sports that he's played just let him basically beat up his own kid in the guys of I'm teaching him a sport but I'm holding him underwater so he can't breathe and he's struggling to come up or I'm on the sidelines yelling at him and embarrassing him totally in front of his could be friends but I don't let him of have friends wow this guy is I don't like Jose if you can't tell um but it's it's crazy how um the boys still have this idea that you know they got to please their dad they got to get their dad's attention and approval even though they know that their dad's just not quite right but they don't see it the way the way that we're seeing it as you know it's definitely crossing a line whereas he's seeing it as my dad was just trying to push me to do better type of mentality so he in his mind he uses he switches it for the positive whereas us Outsiders are looking at it we're going yeah that was not so good grab me and take me off the field and talk to me put me back in and uh uh the coaches would pretty much ignore him both of us and uh we would play and I was um getting a lot of extra training and so I was um at a level where it seemed like that was why the coaches would be tolerating that cuz I would be one of the better players when the game started and uh a big help to the team so they basically just let my dad do what what he wanted to do and um did you get to be friends with the other kids on the team no not really why not um I just didn't spend any time with him and my dad didn't want that why not it's just part of his philosophy if I started becoming friendly with these other players I wouldn't be competitive it's such CP if the uh especially when the people people on that you're trying to befriend are on your own team there's nothing wrong with building team comaraderie rather than you know being the odd man out in Solo and not connecting with any of your teammates it's even more strange te if your team lost would they all get together and go to the pizza parler afterwards even though they lost they would did you get to go no what was your dad's philosophy about that he was uh uh very belittling of uh the coach for allowing and the players to be going to Pizza Parlor to hang out after a loss and uh he believed all through sports that the people that win are the ones that hate losing and uh the idea that there would be Smiles on kids faces after they lost the game uh was really he's just outrageous to him and if if I even went near anybody or you know I had to look and would purposely look pretty devastated after matches pretty similar he had to fake his emotions this is what people do in these situations you have to fake your emotion for the O for the benefit of the other person because if you have the wrong emotion according to them they're going to freak out on you but you have to pretend you're upset because they're upset you see or they're happy so you have to pretend to be happy kids growing up in this type of environment learn to adapt very quickly so he doesn't get to go hang out with his teammates and go to the pizza parlor and not only that but he has to fake his emotions and go home with his dad and then deal with his dad because whenever they had a loss he got bered and told these are the things you should have done and um so a loss to him he knew was uh he's he's going to be punished in some form or fashion by Jose to that picture my dad would be satisfied cuz he would be very angry did your dad take a losing a soccer game when you're 8 years old is seriously this is very serious to him why well partly because what I said before he had his own dreams and he he wanted me to achieve those and because I was the most important thing in his life and what I did was serious why were you the most important thing in his life I don't know that's just the way it was did it have something to do with your place in the family or was your brother as important to him as you were no my brother was unimportant uh how could he pretty much believed in well I did believe that the first born was the one that carried the line I carried my dad and his dad and his dad and his dad's first name Joseph or Jose and uh that was really all he cared about and uh my heartbreaks for Eric he's sitting there saying how his dad didn't care for Eric and Eric's just sitting there watching this and has to listen to this I mean my heartbreaks like Eric already knew and felt that he wasn't important to his dad but to hear it spoken out loud you know it's got to be from your brother your older brother who you also look up to got to suck I feel so bad for both of them to some degree I felt that was similar feelings from my grandparents and everybody around that the focus seemed to be on me that might be partly cuz Jose I mean my dad's Focus was on me but uh notic he just slipped up there and called him Jose and not my dad at first Al him by his first name I wonder if that was him distancing himself perhaps from the crimes or just from the person because of how Jose treated him and now he's you know distanced himself from that relationship that control so maybe now he's like I'm not going to call him my dad anymore I'm going to call him Jose I don't know but for whatever reason he calls him Jose by his first name and not my dad I'm not really sure why is so you got a lot more attention than your brother is that right I had his complete attention and I don't think my brother I didn't even think about my brother really didn't even exist for me until later in life I don't think either of us thought about Eric too much so he was just ignored oh this breaks my heart we're only like 20 minutes in the first I mean I've been talking a lot so I'm I'm apologizing now already but we're like 25 minutes into this thing and already I I'm struggling to deal with what they're talking about and it hasn't even gotten really to much he was not completely ignored um Dad would interact with him and uh be harsh with him at times um play with him at times in ways that he didn't with me didn't just didn't seem to be very concerned with what was happening with Eric he might if he was in a bad mood he might slap Eric or push Eric away if he was in a good mood he might hang out with Eric but it was different like I had to be doing something I was achieving something or something of importance and uh it was very different like you put all the time so you had more attention would you say there were more expectations of you well hell yeah but it's like Jose put all of his time and effort into this one kid and then he took all of his frustration anger control issues on the other kid weird you also definitely was one of the things that your father made decisions about with regard to your sports training the food that you would eat yes and throughout your childhood did his ideas about the proper foods change um not too much I mean it was always very important to him okay and and what what was the the instruction with regard to food were you told what you could eat yes were you told when you could eat it um no I mean there were some meals he felt were it depended on what was happening that day if there was a practice it would be 3 hours before he he wouldn't tolerate 2 and 1/2 hours it would be three and then there would be certain foods involved um and if there wasn't a practice and I was just going to school um I would just know the things that I had to stay away from or I had to eat um such as stay away from sugar um dairy products uh I wonder if these boys still kind I mean I know they're imprisoned and it's hard to eat while in prison but they still look very you know in shape and um some people gain a lot of weight in prison I mean not to be mean but that's what happens cu the food is so starchy and stuff so I wonder if the things that Jose was teaching them about food really um they took to heart because it seems like they're doing at least well for themselves in prison is to not be like overeating or gaining weight there maybe they're staying active I don't know just an observation that that changed because uh there were times when dairy products were done a big thing it depended on what he was reading whatever was in the literature if it was the eat to Wi diet if it was something else usually he had books that would list what you have for breakfast lunch and dinner and then like strategies for how early but he he changed his philosophy a lot because I remember him reading about Poncho uh Gonzalez um would fast during the tournament and so I did that for a period of time where I would just not eat for know 12 hours at a time have a small meal not eat all day again um that wasn't working very well so we switched how old were you when you were doing the Poncho Gonzalez fasting program 13 when I was just becoming uh real competitive and you were playing a lot of tennis at that time I take it yes it was only 10 how many hours a day were you a Preen boy he would starve aren't boys at that age like I don't know I don't have kids but I've heard boys at this age are like ravenous right I mean and he's denying him food for 12 hours I wonder if he could drink water this is ridiculous playing tennis at 13 six probably like 40 45 hours a week I'm sorry I couldn't hear four or 5 hours 45 40 hours a week 40 to 45 hours a week and this is during your 13 and you're going to school also wow yes yes did you sit down and talk with your dad about these food programs and sort of decide together what what you were going to do in terms of your diet or did he decide I could pick out foods from the different categories when you say so he had the choice of what to eat but he had to pick it out of certain lists he wasn't able to just freely say I want rice krispie treats right now or I want Rice Krispies for cereal breakfast and he would say if it's not on the list then you can have it I don't know so I guess he at least he had the choice to pick what was on the list but he had he was still limited to these lists he wanted you to stay away from sugar from junk food um that was an important theme with him I take it yes and if you violated that rule would he enforce uh the rules uh well sometimes I violated the rule yeah he would enforce the rules was there a situation where you bought some food during the time you were playing soccer that you weren't supposed to buy yes how old were you was about 11 almost and what happened is at the lawrenville deli at the lawrenville deli um I we stopped there routinely on the way from or to the soccer fields from where our house was in uh Pennington and my dad would be buying the things he felt he wanted for me and the guy behind the counter was very friendly they'd had the place forever and he knew me me every time I came in in my soccer clothes um basically he um sneaked me in a back some pastries and cookies and stuff he just sort of put it in with he probably had some idea that these boys were starving and he knew so he snuck them food oh what a nice man everything else my dad was buying and I took it out when my dad wasn't looking um did your dad find him he found them on me outside the store were you eating him I was eating him and what did your dad do he just grabbed him out of my hand and he just grabbed me by the neck and he just punched me in the stomach did he say anything no he dragged me to the car and uh I don't believe that he said anything I knew what was obvious me the witness to keep your voice up yes if you could speak up a little bit for eating a sweet eating a pastry his dad grabs him by the neck punches him in the stomach and drags him to the car without even saying a word that's a psychopath the picture that's up on the board with you and the yellow shirt is that in in the back seat of a car yes and is that your father with you yes and does that scene look familiar to you yes after you is that a the shirt of a soccer team you played for that's the Swiss bakery in Delhi and that was the soccer team yeah that's that's one of the house league teams um not the All-Star team that this picture is in here there would be like 16 teams in the house league lots of boys would play and myself and then they would pick certain players to play on like an All-Star team um this was one of the House League games and we would wear the T-shirt of the sponsor that would be the sponsor and after you played um soccer would your dad talk to you about what your performance had been yes and was it supportive like you did a great thing today or I'm really proud of you or what would be the tone of those conversations no he didn't believe in that we worked on a he didn't believe in that being supportive he didn't believe in is funny the way he worded or how he said that like what she listen to the question again was he supportive blah blah blah he's like no I didn't believe in that like no he didn't believe being supportive of his kids which is true he didn't but it's just like so nonchalant he's like no I didn't believe it yes and was it supportive like you did a great thing today or I'm really proud of you or what would be the tone of those conversations no he didn't believe in that we worked on uh different aspects of the game um what I could have done there was always things that I could have done much better um depended if we won or lost if we had won if IID scored a goal or so and usually in these games I would score a goal or do something significant probably and um we would just focus on the other things that I should have done better it wouldn't be so bad you said your dad didn't believe in things like that when I said asked you if he said complimentary things what do you mean he right that was a weird way to respond to that so she wants to follow up on that which is good that she did that because it makes you wonder like what he didn't believe in being a supportive father no no he didn't didn't believe in things like that um he just didn't believe in in Praise he just felt that uh you know you just have to keep going to the next level of play so we could get to where we wanted to go and uh that wasn't going to happen with wasting time patting ourselves on the back and you know just losing our focus on on what we had as a goal and uh so I never I never look for praise did you feel like there was a lot of pressure to live up to your dad's expectations tremendous pressure did you think you could ever meet his expectations no and I don't think he felt I could either can have the Tenn pictures here and I have three additional pictures which I've shown to the prosecution that I'd like to have marked this next in order right starting at 2:16 will be the next exhibit at some point did you start playing tennis yes and how old were you when you started playing tennis I started late like um but I started about 6 I put some photographs up here yeah do you recognize these photographs yeah what do you recognize them to be that's um John Camp the my coach at that time and that it's me on the right I don't know who who the other voice um well that looks like 6 years old I just started and is this the uh were these the first formal tennis lessons you have yes and did your dad work with you in the park before that yes how long before you taking these formal lessons in six did you uh start practicing with your dad in the park we practiced for a long time um he wanted me to learn the basics the way he wanted me to learn the basics before I went to another coach did it who started me a different way and he also um wanted me to get to a certain skill level where I could play with the older kids and didn't waste time with the very basic stuff that uh some of the coaches wanted to do depending on the coach but this he was a really nice softer guy and took the kids through slowly um so my dad because we used to watch we'd go over and we sort of watch at first cuz my dad would play and uh he decided that we would work first on the like the public courts and get to a certain level and then I could join into these drills that he really wanted me to be involved in so we that's you were here when your cousin Alan Anderson testified right about playing tennis at the park you remember that mhm yes and he indicated when you first started playing you couldn't hold a racket with one hand is that correct that's right why well I was six and uh I wanted to use a junior racket um I'm actually using a junior racket in that picture um which John had at the club and those are the types of things that John would do that my dad hated he wanted me to use full-size Racket and we W he wanted you to use a full siiz racket who wanted you to use a full siize my dad wanted me to use a fullsize racket um and we would wrap the grip up um a little bit higher and I would hold the racket choked so that I could hold it with two hands with two hands on both sides were you too small to hold it with one hand yes during the course of you playing tennis uh did you have a series of coaches yes did you make a list at one point in time of all the coaches you could think of yes and about how many were on there did you have five coaches or 10 coaches or 20 coaches no I could remember like 50 about 55 coaches oh my god um but I know I missed a lot cuz they kept coming you another one would come back to me every once in a while um I wonder if it was like Jose didn't want to keep him around or something or maybe Jose just buted heads with them and he didn't like them so he would just bring in new a new coach every time he got annoyed with a coach I don't know being that Jose is a control freak and it it might have something to do with that I don't know would you have more than one coach at a time yes and did you get to form any close relationships with any of these coaches um some of them I mean not really I did have a close relationship some degree with uh Brad Warner because I went to him for a long period of time um this guy was very nice to me cuz he would stand up to my dad somewhat but uh I didn't really know him in any way did your dad encourage you to get close to your coaches no no he we went through coaches just it was high turnover with coaches and if one started getting too friendly and talked to my mom too much he was gone and we just get another one and what if you started to get close rephrase the question please who picked the coaches did you get to say I like this coach I'd like to keep them or was this a decision your dad made no my dad would either my dad or my mom would would find the coach and then I would have my first lesson and uh that's when I would meet him and during your early years say before you were 10 how many hours a day would you say or how many hours a week would you say you were playing tennis before you 10 before I was 10 well we played a lot more in the summer than in the winter um in the summer we would split it up between the three Sports and I would play a little each day and I would hit tennis pretty almost almost every day certainly by the time I was seven I was playing almost every day um and really my dad was focusing on tennis and and soccer cuz I was having a very hard time with swimming and I might play uh several hours uh in a row maybe like four hours and then uh we would switch and play some soccer or he would go over the a tape he had soccer tapes and then maybe we would go to the pool because we'd be hot and sweaty and then we would train in the pool for some swimming um during the school year it was regimented cuz we had court time swimming time and uh I think I played tennis like three four times a week sometimes more on the weekends and then there would be times when my dad would just decide i' play tennis all day I do that in addition to the playing of tennis you said he had tapes would he go over tapes with you in the various Sports yes we had lots of tapes on each sport and would you just sit down together father and son and and watch the tapes or would this be some sort of a a teaching session there would be training tapes they would be uh I used to go to a soccer camp Patell soccer camp and they would furnish us with tapes there they would have tap of South American players giving instruction pay other well-known players I don't remember the names but um they would also have some basic American soccer instruction tapes which weren't too good but uh then they would have we would have the tennis tapes that would be the most extensive because we have he would tape all the matches the great matches and he would have Part Parts segmented for me to watch or games or he would have the slow motion button and we would watch the service motion or whatever it was um he also had specific like they were called cyber Vision tapes made by Stan Smith boots which would actually be like computerized stroking tapes and actual play that you only see like dots of the body and I would imitate that um and we would just go through it instructionally now when you say you would imitate it while the tape was going on would you be doing something or just sitting there or no we would be we would be watching intently and he would be telling me see that see that you know and I would sometimes I would have the button he would say go back and he would go over the TV and he would point to the form see how his elbows bent your elbow drops too much you have to keep it up a million things that would just be technical oriented now when you would watch these tapes would this be a 15 minute session or something longer sometimes uh a lot of times uh like in Pennington we would run in from practice if I had done something wrong he would say come on we would go into the house turn on the tape and he'd find the segment that pertained to whatever I had done wrong or he wanted me to do um then we would go back out uh other times it would just be at night um if it was raining and we were supposed to play outside or something like Jose lived and breathed Sports through his sons like all he cared about it's so bizarre and it's a control thing too with both of them it's I don't know because he was an Olympic or wanted to be an Olympic swimmer he had to use that to train his kids to do Sports they didn't want to do like that they would any kind of filler time we would just watch the tapes we watch the same tapes over and over and over do you have time to go play with the kids in the neighborhood um I very occasionally played uh the baseball on the colde saac um with a guy named Jerry older kid um who let me play um and I knew another kid across the street named Tom me who was more friends with Eric or they would occasionally uh play or something but uh pretty much we weren't allowed off the property and we stayed in the backyard which had fences did you have other kids come over and play with you come in the house we have Jerry came in the house occasionally until the dog attacked him was this in Muny yes and was the dog who attacked in KH yes and was KH the uh relative of the dog who bit you on the face yes you have a scar on your right cheek yeah from that dog bite so after Khan attacked Jerry is that the end of Jerry coming in the house yes it was um he was just traumatized by it cuz the dog was let in and this dog was ferocious if it smelled another person in the house it just it just tore down the stairs and he was playing ping pong with me it came running down the stairs and just bit him in the growing and it was this huge dog fight and my mom separated uh Jerry and the dog and got the dog by the jaws and Jerry left and I almost never saw him again uh would you want to Jerry you mean yeah the dog stayed with you though yeah wow do you eventually have to get rid of the dog eventually uh the police said that we had to to destroy KH because of various violent incidences with the dog and other dogs and other people um and uh my dad didn't want to do that and he had this idea that if he give it away for a while he might be able to get it back when things calm down uh so we gave it to a family that had I think much older kids I think they were college kids or would have R like a Farm type and then I heard that the dog had been destroyed eventually for more problems getting back to your tennis when you would be playing uh when you would be practicing would your father be there participating in your practices in tennis yes not every time but most of the time my dad was there anytime he could be there he would be there and when you were playing in tournaments was your father there yes or he would fly in and uh a lot of times I remember I would start the first couple points and uh then I'd see my dad show up in a business suit um having just arrived um would you be glad to see him yes that's a yes and no that's a mixed feeling answer that's a I can't totally answer that honestly so I'm just going to go with uh yeah yeah I missed him like a kid misses their dad but I think when you have someone like that in your life you're body is going to tense up when you see them because you're so used to being in a state of tension just by being in their presence so he I think he's being a little um disingenuous although I mean he's not lying but he's not telling us that he's also fearful for you know what's to come the pressure did he make it more fun for you to be in tournaments no why not well whenever whenever my dad was around it was very heavy pressure and uh I prefer to be just with the coach um but for some reason when I was away from my dad um I had trouble playing and so uh I remember um this semi-finals of one big championship tournament with a rival that I had beaten earlier in the spring in front of my dad easily this was a big match there like 50 people watching and I lost 6060 and my coach looked at me like oh my God how are we going to tell your dad and um he was like pale and I was I sometimes I just couldn't play if my dad was not there or and I don't know sometimes it was the nerves just having to explain to him the match mean explain to him the match if your father wasn't there would you have to tell him about the match every game exactly how the match progressed now when you when you say exactly how the match progress he didn't give him details he had to give them specifics of what happened and the came pretend would you call your father at work or see him when he got home how would you tell him I call him immediately he want to know immediately so would he be at work he might he would normally be uh either at home or sometimes he would be uh um I guess no I guess at tournaments he was mostly at work but I call him after practices um and I would be playing late and he might he would get home and expect a call from either the coach or from me or we reach him at the office his secretary would always say he's out to lunch he's busy as soon as he found out it was my tennis coach oh he just walked in and then we' uh he'd wanton everything you know Z he wouldn't be around he wasn't accessible unless it was about tennis get it the temperament tell me tell me what you would tell him uh he want talk to the coach first and uh I could hear my coach saying you know he did real well I know he it was a close match depending on whatever happened just describe the match kind of and uh then he'd say you know your father wants to talk to you and uh dad would uh ask me to have the coach leave the room so he could talk to me private and he would say uh tell me what happened you know I heard this what happened I want to know why did this happen this way as far as give you examples like um he would say you know you elected to serve first and I'd say yes say okay did do you go through the first three games like we arranged cuz he would have like exactly what I was supposed to do for like first almost 25 points where I would just have a set strategy you know sometimes it would go off during the point but pretty much I would either serve and volley to the dece court stay back on the ad Court then if it was 30 all he'd have different strategies um I don't know tennis I have no idea what he just was talking about but it sounds Tennessee and I i' explained to him how I followed those strategies and he'd want to know why they didn't work out and uh I do my best to explain in a way that didn't admit that my backham was off or that I wasn't concentrating or things like that now would these be conversations would last two or 3 minutes or how long would you be explaining in detail what happened an hour and a half hour an hour and a half for these phone calls it wasn't just like a yeah well in this uh round I don't know what they're called in tennis I know nothing about tennis how about like in this round I got three points and then in the next round no you have to be specific you have to walk them through pretty much a playby playay of the game awful and especially if you lose you're going to get it even worse you're probably going to have to spend more time on the phone with Jose talking about it and a half because we'd also then have to go into what was happening tomorrow um and uh he'd want to know exactly what I ate that day maybe maybe it was the food that affected the match and I would write out what I ate every time I was away from him so we could chart whether you know only bananas and so he was so controlled he had to write down everything he wrote that day or any time he was away from his father he had to write down and log all of his food just so his father could review it and criticize it critique it no thank you I wouldn't want to be writing down my food log and then have someone else looking it over and critiquing it this is insane but parents am I right I mean I guess um thinking that these boys are his property he can do whatever he wants one in the morning seemed to be a winning percentage and so on and they actually uh purchased a computer um at one point uh that would you could plug all these things in and it would give you the percentages of what happened when you ate this or when you tried this strategy how many unforced errors very very very technical with my dad at one point were you the number one player in the middle States tennis association yes now what is the middle States tennis Association what area does that cover that's um the five states uh most of New York New Jersey Pennsylvania uh West Virginia and Delaware and how old were you when you were number one in that area I was uh 17 I think my first year of the 18 and unders so so everybody eligible to play and that would have been 18 or younger right and you were 17 when you won right and do you remember when you won that do you remember that that period of time I remember the year okay do you remember was your dad proud of you had you finally done enough um he was he was proud of me but uh by that by the time I could get to be number one I mean we were thinking nationally and nationally I was not where he wanted me to be so we didn't really worry about like the five states thing um we concentrated on the nation what the other players were doing and uh I was having trouble nationally and that was always on his mind so this wasn't a great moment for you then I mean making number one ranking in the middle State's tennis Association was not that important did it seem to be raise a question please yeah did it seem to be important I mean did your dad seem to be real happy about this um he really didn't say much about it it just happened the rankings came up I noticed I was number one but again we were thinking nationally it was like you know so what and and that was an upsetting year because we had lost again uh Family of the Year tennis for New Jersey to a family called the Lesley and my dad was pissed and uh um my mother called in and you know to complain and the whole thing cuz my brother had a very good year that year also um but you know we lost that so he was he was very upset basically was upset with my brother for not having been number one also which would have clenched it and he was like five or something four or five so your brother was number four or five if he'd been number one it would have clenched it me and you would have gotten the tennis Family of the Year right well I should pick a point here when it's convenient we'll take a break one more question I'll take a break um did your sports activities seem to take up all of your dad's free time it took up any time he wasn't working and did your mother ever express any resentment about that oh yes many many times what would she say he would say many things um she would say that I I ruined her life and she would explain to me why and how I ruined her life did she tell she told her own son you ruined my life I mean I have no words for what these people did to these boys about why and how so much damage so much psychological damage and the way that they talked to them treated them uh handled them physically um didn't give them the positive and loving supportive environment alone gives them several issues within their psyche and probably anxiety and you know uh depression so many different things going on within their minds life well if it was like if she wasn't in a tantrum and she was just speaking normally um she would just explain all the things that she could have been an actress broadcasting I learned about uh uh her aspirations with disappointments with not being a child actress and wanting to go on in some acting or uh uh broadcasting sense and she told me that she had a job in New York to be a hostess at a restaurant that she said she could make almost 50,000 a year and that then suddenly she had gotten pregnant that she had not wanted to get pregnant that my dad had then forced her well gave her an ultimatum either you leave or or you stay home with my son and quit and uh so she chose to stay home and essentially her life was pretty much ruined from that point on but then we would have more so you leave she didn't want kids let's put her back up a bit to be a hostess at a restaurant that she said she could make almost 50,000 a year and that then suddenly she had gotten pregnant that she had not wanted to get pregnant that my dad had then forced her well gave her an ultimatum either you leave or or you stay home with my son so you leave this marriage and go off and do your $50,000 a year job that you want so badly like I'm saying it like I'm Jose like you go do that or you stay home with my son and I'll take care of you and give you everything you've ever wanted I'm sure he told her something along those lines and quit and uh so she chose to stay home and essentially her life was pretty much ruined from that point on but then we would have more discussions uh about how much money was being spent on my tennis um all my dad's time all the time and energy and money that Hosea is putting into Lyall she's jealous of that's probably all the stuff he promised her if you would stay in this marriage and raise my son I'll give you all these things and now she seeing him pouring his love and adoration on well I don't think ly I mean I don't think Jose or Kitty can actually love but he's the dad is showing all of his you know attention for a Whiley and the mom is not getting any anymore on my tennis who cares um and uh and then I would hear about the lessons she couldn't have the things that she couldn't have um and then there was would be other times uh when she was in a tantrum then it would just come out very uh you know in a rage what would come out in a rage she would be throwing things and and screaming and flailing and wanting and trying to hit you and saying that you're a bastard and uh she cursed a lot and uh now wait till your dad gets home I'll tell him the things that you didn't do today and and uh that's the second time he's brought that up so I think she threatened that a lot that she was going to tell Jose on him like tell on him to Jose if you know try to try to get him in line you were never born and why can't you be like your brother and what's a matter with you and then I would try to say something she would say shut up I don't want to hear it you're stupid I hate you um how old were you when you heard things like I wish you were never born so seven s thank you that's okay we'll take a recess ladies and gentlemen we'll resume at 15 minutes after the hour don't discuss this case with anyone don't form any final opinions about it and we'll resume at 3:15 and all the uh jurors are back in court and we're ready to proceed the Witnesses on the witness stand you may proceed with your questioning [Music] you Lyle as you were growing up and I'm directing your attention now to when you were living in the Muny house and then later in the Pennington house were there pornographic films that were made available to you and your brother yes and where did these films come from my dad brought him home with other videos and would you and your brother sneak and watch them or how would you see them no my my my dad would we would just watch them together with your dad and what's the earliest age that you remember being shown films like this I remember some films in Mony at the end mostly I remember in Pennington Pennington house and what types of things would be portrayed in these films it was mostly violence sexual violence I remember a whole bunch of the films um there would be films with gang rapes uh there was one film sented around a a woman that was riding her bike and was abducted and brought to a forest and gang raped and uh there was another different film where there was females three females attacking another female and the same in the men's locker room with three guys and another guy um in violent sexual acts and there was another film that was it was like a film within a film where this filmmaker was making a lot of money uh selling these violent um sexual pornography that he would take place in a red room and then the premise of the film is they eventually find out that that the killings and the sexual violence in the Red Room is real and that's why the films are so good and there were there were lots of did your father show these films to other people beside you and yourself and your mother only as like in a uh just shock value how do you mean who you show him to uh he showed him to um that I remember Peter Goldsmith um he showed him to the neighbors in the Pennington house when they would come over at times it seemed like he would tell me in advance he was going to do this and it was more to embarrass my mother than anything else but he would he would just put up this video and people would sort of settle in and then he shock him um really that's how he would entertain guests and to embarrass his wife and forces children young children to watch these films he showed him for uh evil does live I mean evil does exist if you ever wonder evil and good evil is on Earth and it's people like Jose and ktie Mendez some of my friends that would come over every once in a while he just throw one on and it it really wasn't very bothered by him and we would watch him together do you ever take photographs of you and your brother yes and what would the circumstances be in which he would take photographs he would take photographs of us um of um our private parts and would he have you come in and pose for these photographs or how would that happen um I would just if we're in the showers or bathtub or changing he would just he would just use the same camera that my mother used and then he would come in take just a photograph or two and uh he wouldn't say anything he then he would leave do you ever show you those photos no excuse me I have some photographs I have attorney perion how many are there and just for the record what are the markings that you put on there we have may I do it from okay please refer to uh Sor mrz all right Mr Mendez I'm showing you a codc Color Prints envelope with the number 219 on it would you take a look at that do you recognize the handwriting on the friend that's my mother's and what does it say Eric's birthday November 1976 and a November 1976 how old would you have been eight and that's the Muny house for harlo Lane Muny New York is there anything in that envelope at this time it's empty at this time your honor the next would be did you want to mark that envelope it's marked 219 your all right the next would be 220 which is a envelope containing negatives next is a series of small photographs which we marked 221 a why they keep having audio issues we can skip through this any Mark 222 through 233 which is marked as two have you been shown this proof sheet already yes I now have the enlargements which go in order off of the proof sheet off the negative Mr manetes do you recognize this Photograph yes and who are the people in that photograph uh Mom and Dad myself uh the baralt family children and and Aunt Terry and Uncle cars could you just identify that for the record so that we 22 all right he said the baralt family and Uncle Carlos they came up weird on the cion yes and who is that that's uh me 224 that's Eric 225 what was the answer I don't know it's nothing you're on right nobody can recognize it's just the next photo on the negative 226 that's Eric and myself and some other boys speak up some some other boys and Eric and myself sorry and do you recognize some mark on your brother the birth mark the birth mark on his right wrist it's a large large brown birath Mark 227 that's my father and Eric at a birthday party 228 that looks like the same party with Eric and myself 229 the same picture I think but darker 230 I'm the same picture basically 231 um looks like my mother in the background lower half of her and my brother with a donut 232 that's Eric how do you recognize him birth mark on his right hand and 233 that's the little dog I was talking about tress may I take a moment to put the photos up yes that your dad would come in periodically and just take pictures of you the two photographs here whove marked one which you've identified as yourself and the other one is Eric children without clothes also appear to be children without heads is that correct yes and would take photographs of you of this nature would you seem to be directed at taking photos of your faces No but would he would take photographs of your genital area in the lower half of your body or uh you're bending over or just different parts of your Physicians is what I never really knew because you never saw them afterward or he would be focused on those areas but I didn't see the I've never seen these pictures it's today the first time you've seen these pictures is that yes yes did your dad used to have talks with you about sex between men yes and what types of situations would he talk to you about he would uh talk about the bonding between men um uh going into battle or in competitions um mostly with regards to battle and history and that uh sexual intera action and touching and um uh hugging but also sex was throughout history was something that men that had gone into battle had done together he's normalizing Manon man counters this what he's trying to do is normalize that oh yeah this is normal this has been going on for centuries men have been having relations with other men all the time and it's it's a manly thing this is why and so he's attaching it to this like veril and um being the strong virtuous Warrior type guy when um really it's just to normalize it to um while um had me read passages about it what do you mean had you read passages about it what would he give you to read excuse me can we have a time please yes what time are we talking about in your life talking about when I was six what would he have talking about men having relations with other men when Lyle is sick you read he had history books um with passages outlined various battles and uh strategy but um in terms of on this um subject there would be particular passages about Greeks um soldiers having uh had sex with each other before they went into battle as a way of bonding with each other so they have a stronger connection and he would talk about um the same thing with regard to uh Sports and uh and he and I and did he talk about fathers and their firstborn sons in this regard not in this not that that's what I don't I'm not understand the question did he talk about you said he talked about soldiers and having sex between them as a bonding mechanis yes did he talk about teachers and students no did oh yes he did actually not teachers he talked to me about um I don't know what they were like lecturers or traveling lecturers professors and uh that they would have arrangements with very close special students young boys um and they would have sex and they would touch each other and did he talk about it with regard to Fathers and Sons um he talked about it with regard to our relationship as being very special and our family history uh with first the firstborn and the father and what was special about the relationship of the firstborn and the father that it was special and that uh that was really all that matter was the first born and that the sons should do what the fathers say and then they grew up and they they become like the father and the father teaches them and molds them and uh and someday me and my son do the same and between the ages of six and8 did your father have sexual contact with you yes and how did it start just started with after Sports practices he would massage me and uh we would have these talks and he would show me and he would uh fondle me and he would ask me to do the same with him and I would I would touch him and we would undress um where would this take place in my bedroom and how often would this happen like two or three times a week and for how long did this happen um not too long began to change when did it begin to change I'm not sure exactly at what time but almost close to when I was seven and how did it change just became more involved um what do you mean more involved um we would be in the bathroom and uh um it would he would put me on my needs and he would guide me all my movements and I would um uh have oral sex with him did you want to do this this is heartbreak at some point did he do some other things to you yes what else did you do to you I used that objects um what kind of objects a toothbrush and some sort of Shaving utensil brush and what would he do with the toothbrush well this in the bedroom we'd have what we called object sessions and just slide my pants down or take my pants off um sometimes it would be short a short period of time sometimes longer just lay me on the bed and you'd have a tube of Vaseline and he just played with me [Music] why and was there some point in time when he decided to use something besides the toothbrush yes and did he try to anally penetrate you with something else I did and what was it you break me did you cry he AR me he said the r word but it said break on the caption so I just wanted to make that clear so he had intercourse with him yes did you bleed yes were you scared very did you ask him not to yes how did you ask him not to I just told him I don't I don't I'm sorry I just told him that I didn't want to do this and that it hurt me and he said that he didn't mean to hurt me and he loved me was that important to you that he love you yes very but I still didn't want to do it did you tell your [Applause] mom yes what did you say to your mom you did I told us to tell Dad to leave me alone and he keeps touching me what did your mom say she told me to stop it and that I was exaggerating and that my dad has to punish me when I do things wrong and she told me that he loved me did you ever tell anybody else when when did you ever tell anybody else when you were a child child you heard Diane Vander moan testify do you remember telling her no did you complain to your cousin Alan no no not about that just about punishment as a child did you ever tell anybody else what it happened with your dad um yes I as a child no why not I was afraid and my dad didn't want me to what did he tell you about telling people he just said that was our secret that bad things would happen to me if I told anybody these emotions cannot be faked I don't care what people say these boys these emotions are raw they're real this is genuine and I told them I never would I'll go back have I told anybody and I told him I never would he just said that was our secret that bad things would happen to me if I told anybody and I told him I never would how old were you when this stopped mate so during the time between 6:00 and 8 when this was going on did you tell your brother did you do something to your brother yes what did you do to your brother I took him out to the woods whenever I felt I don't know I took him out sometimes and I took uh a toothbrush also and I played with Eric in the same way and I'm sorry these boys this is not fake all these people like back when this happened these boys were ridiculed made fun of so bad in the media or crying about this thing that happened to them like okay this is horrific what happened to them and I'd be crying too and this is genuine and real and I don't know how anybody can just look at these boys and uh say the thing the horrible things that they said about them back in the 990s anyways it's heartbreaking it stopped for you with your dad when you were eight when you were about 13 did you think that it might be happening to someone else yes and who did you think it was happening to Eric and did you do something about it yes what did you do I talked to my dad what did you say to your dad I told him that I knew what was going on with him and Eric and and I heard noises and that I wanted him to leave Eric alone and what did he say to you he told me that Eric was that Eric made things up sometimes but that it that it would stop and uh that he we should keep it just between us or he kill me did you ever tell anybody what you thought was going on no I told him I would never tell anybody I just wanted to stop did he tell you it would stop he did told him it would stop wood stop and it that's as far as I have for today that's all right all right you want to take a recess in at this point all right ladies and gentlemen we all right so this is actually the end of part one but I'm going to play a little bit into part two because well hi my dog is trying to get on camera I'm going to play a little bit of part two because this was such a short video um so we're going to go into a little bit in part two but hold on one second because my dogs need a potty break so stay tuned all right so here we are this is part two um I mean we're going into the second part um as far as you know the person who made these videos but we're going to continue to have a part two after this um continuing from where we left off so I'm sorry to confuse you we're just going to go a little bit longer I switched videos and now here we go stand I'll remind you that you're still under oath would you state your name again for the record please Joseph ly Menendez right Mr Menendez I've placed a picture up on the board do you recognize that photograph that's my dad uh that's a previously marked exhibit your honor I'll get the number at the break you were telling us um the last thing on Friday about a talk that you had with your father when you were 13 years of age do you remember that yes and you I believe that you told us that you had heard some noises that made you believe that um your brother was being molested by your father is that right yes now as soon as you heard those noises did you go right up and confront your dad no what did you do well I was hearing the noise for a long period of time and uh after a while uh I just I felt that I should talk to my dad about it and uh so it took me a couple days but I I finally did one time when he came up to the bedroom I heard him and I just I sort of spent the day thinking about it and then I uh went and I told him okay why did it take you you said you heard the noises for a period of time did you immediately think you knew what it was no I I didn't even I didn't know what it was when I was talking to him really um I had just guessed why didn't you go up to him immediately well probably I just felt that if if I decided to talk to him about it he would probably beat me up and he would probably get incredibly angry and I just he might HT my brother I just wasn't sure what was going to happen and so I thought about doing nothing um I I really did I felt like at some point I didn't really have a lot of choice I should just go talk to my dad and maybe he would talk to me about it and uh I felt like he might and uh he did he did talk to you about it mhm now when you finally decided to talk to him did you just go up and confront him right then or did you prepare in some way I prepared just by sitting in my bedroom and uh um pretty much the same way I the same things I did when the stress level got real high I put on the this little lony Richie single I had and I just turned the lights out and I just try to concentrate and my dad had taught me to do this and um I tried to just relax cuz I was just so tense and I wanted to be relaxed and uh at the same time brace myself because I thought he would you know he probably would do something to me did you tell your mom you were going to talk to your dad no did you tell your mom what you thought was happening to your little brother no why not my mom wasn't going to do anything about it why didn't you think your mom was going to do anything about it at that point I was 13 uh 13 and my relationship with my mother was extremely bad and uh she was really out of control and uh I just it would just be a lot worse I felt if I talked to uh my dad about it I also thought it'd be worse if I talked to my brother about it first cuz I figured he would deny it and then he might go to Dad I just I thought it was better to just surprise my dad just talk to him about it and not tell anybody else um but I I wasn't going to tell my mother did you talk to your brother about it afterwards that you had had this talk with your dad yes and did he tell you that things had changed for him ja over he said that he never admitted that uh anything was going on but he said that um he was glad I talked to Dad and that things had gotten better and things had changed didn't use those exact words but um left me with the impression that it was resolved 10 hours were full you talked about having this this talk with your father and preparing for it uh did you have a lot of talks with your dad as you were growing up many talks now were these talks where you give your ideas and he gives his ideas and there's an exchange of information or were they different than that um it was an exchange of information depends what talks you're talking about I there were ones at the dinner table which would be more of question answer let's do that said well I got to get were there serious discussions at the dinner table in your house very serious and starting at about what age since I can remember but certainly in the myy house and in the myy house you were six seven8 six I think when I I was definitely six when I maybe I was five too when I was there I'm not sure and what would that what would happen when your dad would come home we're talking about okay when you're six and in the Mony house right what was it like when your dad came home it was extremely tense in the house because my mother not just cuz my mother we we were very tense I was certainly um nervous about my dad coming home he'd want to know about my whole day we might be going out to a practice after we got home it just depended but whatever happened it was going to be very intense my dad was just that kind of a guy it was very sharply intense and uh and my mother would basically start to be like a recluse in the house you couldn't didn't want to talk to you uh didn't want to even be around anybody either go into her bedroom or just kind of hang out in the kitchen and you stayed away from her cuz she was prone to just explode cuz she was nervous and he would come home and uh in a way it was it was kind of like a celebration when he came home because Mom would be at the door and we would all uh run up and uh usually um he would kind of give me a quick hug like that and uh basically just me and then he would put his things on the ground and uh go to change if you want to put a warm-up suit on depending what was happening okay would he hug Eric the way he hugged you no would he hug your mom no sometimes he would say Hello Kitty did you seem to get the special attention yes and at the dinner table would he have talks with you yes we'd have talks it was we'd have uh yeah it was basically with just me occasionally talk to my brother but very rarely did he talk to your mother so they'd be sitting there for dinner and you would just ignore Eric and only talk to LY no my mother was did not eat dinner with us she just kind of walked around and uh went into the kitchen we always had kitchens where she could be in the kitchen and the the dinner table was right there and she would never sit down or I I almost I can't remember her sitting down um but even in California when she sat down nobody talked to her so when when your dad sat down with you would he then Focus his attention on you yes would he ask you about your day yes and was that standard is that he would always ask you about your day yes can you show me now how that conversation would go us to time we're talking when he's 6 years old and MSY still your honor um I don't I don't think I can remember when I'm six okay seven do you remember at seven I remember when I was in uh involved in the tennis at 7 and he would want to know every detail how would the conversation go what would he say um he would be at the head of the table I would be always on his right actually no I would be on his left and my brother would be on the rides next to the kitchen and uh he would just start eating and he would say so I had to go today and uh the ones I recall the most are the ones where uh um it didn't even go so well and uh I would say I went great and um I did real good today and he would say that's not what I heard I would say no D I did real well and uh he would say well take me through the day and uh I'd always start with getting up I you know I got up I got ready um I did my stretching exercises before the day began what would you tell them about the stretching would you just say I did my stretching exercises or would you have to be more specific than that um usually I was real I just whatever we had decided like the day before or that week we were going to stretch is what I told him I can't remember right now but if he didn't like what I was saying he would say um well let me see what you did and uh I would get up and I would just show him basically I worked my legs and my arms and uh my hip area and my neck and went through the exercises or the specific ones that he wanted and then he would say okay that's good you can come back I can come back and uh he said okay what happened next and uh I said well I I uh got ready and went to school and uh always I would forget something and he would say no you just you just got ready and you went to school that's it and I I said and I I would usually remember I would say something no I I thought about my day first I sat down like you said I thought about it um sometimes it would be that I ate the foods that he wanted me to eat before whatever it was usually it was like I thought about the day he'd say well what did you think about you didn't just sit there and think about your day I said no I went thought about um concentrating at school being polite I thought about um staying away from from the other kids and thinking about what I was going to do after school with sports and then what I was going to work on in the evening and um I went through basically went through all the things that I would normally say and then he would say good good and then uh I'd go through the day and I'd say well you know I then I went to school and I had this first class and he would usually say I don't want to hear about the school right now tell me what happened afterwards and uh so I come back and uh say my mom picked me up and we went to uh Sport arama and uh I had my lesson and uh he'd say did you work on your backand like we talked about I'd say yeah and my mom would be like in the kitchen somewhere and during these conversations occasionally um she would just make a noise and shake her head she go and my dad would grab me and he'd yanked me out of the table and he'd just drag me down to the room and he'd say I was lying and I would be uh in the room and then he would go and he would punish me did this happen every night at dinner not like that were you asked about your day every night at dinner mhm is that yes yes and how long would it take you to go through your day for him about an hour not not even maybe 45 minutes depending on how much detail he wanted or how much he wanted out of the lesson sometimes uh he just cut the dinner short and wanted me to talk to me downstairs it's almost like he wants a an accounting or retelling of ly's every moment of every day like making sure he's doing what Jose has been instructing him to do because these are his rules and it's his control and Lyle's under his control and so he's got to make sure that Lyle's doing everything that he is telling him to do so bizarre having to come home and tell you every minute of your day to somebody you have a basement downstairs MH yes and when you had finished telling him everything that happened during the day um if you did it well would you get if you had thought about all the things he told you to think about and done all the exercises the way he told you to do them and had reported it all perfectly would he show some sort of approval or be happy about it um sometimes he would reach and take my hair and say it's a good boy just ruffle your hair a dog did he ask you about other things at the table besides how your day went and exactly what you did Mom after we did today we talked about BAS he basically gave some sort of lecture on things that I we had talked about before he talk about battles and he was it was mostly historical talk about the Roman period and Generals and um the philosophies that um sometimes he'd incorporate into the way he was at work with these philosophies and how I should be at school with and on the like on the soccer field or with my other people that play tennis my competitors and go through different um basically a philosophical talk ask sometimes he'd want it I'm sorry would he ask you questions yeah sometimes he'd want um answers or my response to what he'd said um so I give my response what if you didn't know the answer sometimes if it depended on what the question was if I could look it up he make me go find the passages um in his little library of books that he had which was in the other living room and uh I'd spend my time searching if I found it I can't came back if enough time went by he'd say just forget about it just come back and then I'd come back and sit down and uh you tell me the answer um sometimes I would get a lot of answers wrong and uh he would just sort of start tensing up and uh shaking his head and he sort of just explode well what happened when he exploded he just he just reached out and he grabbed you and usually with me he'd open the sliding glass window and he'd just throw me outside onto the porch and uh this close the door get outside how long would you stay outside few hourss happened only in the summer time no I remember the winter times most cuz then I would go into the uh the nice dog house that they made had the wood chips in it it was warm and I'd hang out in there um did you keep any provisions in there for these times um I did in Pennington what did you Mony I um I didn't and henington what type of things did you keep in the dogghouse for when you were thrown out I kept uh a blanket that I kept in there always and uh and toilet paper I kept in there sometimes food so this is something that went on for most of your life living in the house is that you'd be thrown outside as a punishment uh until I was like 17 I remember it after that would Eric be asked questions at the table sometimes he would be asked questions most of the time he would try to answer a question or something and my dad would just tell him to shut up and uh he was very rough with Eric Eric just sort of tried to get involved a lot and that would really upset my dad Eric wanted your dad's attention yeah he wanted to be part of uh what was going on and uh he would just wander into the conversations and uh sometimes when we did I remember one time that he I was he was in the black chair and I was by the coffee table and we were doing something and my brother sort of just wandered into the area and my dad just hit him across the face and my brother just went flying uh a into the rug this whole um face was bruised what was wrong with Eric why didn't your dad want to pay attention to him did your dad say would he say things to Eric what was wrong with him no maybe just tell him to shut up and go away and why can't you just shut up and go away basically what he I remember he would say and my brother would just uh just stand there and my dad would have to push him away or or he would hit him then my brother would like that time just go cry and try to find his mother did your mother ever come back back and say anything to your dad about the way he was treating Eric or the way he was treating you no time over do you ever remember any time your mother interfering on your behalf with your dad I can't remember any time or or with uh or with Eric on in situations like that and in conversations where Dad was really um grilling them and being harsh with and making fun of them sometimes my Mom would intervene but not when my dad was violent when your mom was making fun of Erica how would she intervene objection mistes the Tes I'm sorry when your when your dad was making fun of Eric how would your mom intervene would she say something to your father he would just say his name oh Jose like he was being a little too harsh with Eric who who just sat there with my brother just couldn't respond just sat there sort of Frozen stunned helpless would your dad stop then when your mom said oh Jose would your mom stop or would he continue ra a question would you when your mom would say something like you've just told me like oh Jose would your dad then stop no he would uh well no he would usually stop and be very upset with my mother for saying something when he was talking to his son and he would say harsh things to her and uh sometimes she would cry she would run she would leave sometimes she would get very upset too and but usually she would end up leaving you said that there were talks in other places but let me just finish it one more thing with the table how long did these talks go on you said you remember them at 7 did they go on for the rest of the time you lived at home um um the talks at the the dinner table and also outside the dinner table went on all the way through my life as for as long as was the line were there also talks that took place in the basement yes and did you have a basement both in Muny and in Pennington yes and what is your earliest memory of talks in the basement um very early like 6 years old when I was swimming okay now was this basement that was set up like some sort of a recre ation room or was it an extra bedroom what we're talking about the one the basement it was a recreation room where there would be a couch um and chairs and how would you and your dad sit in the ping pong table um he would sit in the um higher chair and I would sit on the couch usually how close would you sit so he would sit in a higher chair making him self like more important or above Lyall making sure that he overpowers him physically when he has these talks I would sit kind of hunched over and he my knees would be in between his knees and uh he would be hunched over too and our our heads would be touching and we would talk that way and what would he talk about either he had either we went over what I was going to do the next day if I had a match or practice or there would be something that he was disturbed about um that he would needed to would we would be I would repeat phrases and I would um we basically go over the philosophies that were to correct whatever he wasn't he didn't like that happened but give me an example um we're talking about when he's six years old or if you have an example that's later just tell us how old well when I was playing soccer on the team with Mr gross with this kid Jerry was playing his picture was on the wall at one point um and I believe I was seven or eight I'm not sure and uh at one point I had a a conversation with Jerry and his dad and they were kind of Jerry's dad always usually pretty much always came to the games too and uh um he would take uh Jerry aside after the coach finished talking to everybody and uh um he would sort of uh laugh and talk with Jerry and I would sometimes I I Wander over in that direction and uh my dad would usually call me back say I want to talk to you and we talked one time my Jerry's father came over and he grabbed me and said he wanted to talk to me about something he wanted Jerry and I to like get together and practice outside the team and do something so he was talking to me about it and uh um I talked to him about it and the game resumed and in the basement my dad brought it up and he said you know you were over talking to Jerry and his dad or what I tell you about having friends I said I was just he just wanted to talk to me about practicing after that I think it's a good idea he said no what I tell you about having friends and then he'd say let's go over it and that's when we put our heads together and that's when I would repeat to him um what would you repeat phrases from his books and I would that time I repeated uh phrase or I would just sit there and I would he would say tell me tell me what I told you about friends and I would say I have to constantly struggle cuz there are forces that tear me down and sometimes s they'd be disguised in the form of a smile or the hand of a friend was that a quote from something it was a quote from the book okay and uh he would repeat it then I would repeat it and he would repeat it and then I would repeat it and he would say good how many times would you repeat it back and forth like that a couple times and in these talks when your head were together like that if you said something that was a mistake what would happen you he would bump my head hard not too hard just enough this was very trans likee I usually had my eyes closed and his head was on my his forehead was on my head we would just repeat things in this voice sometimes his voice would get harder if he was trying to emphasize or if he didn't like what I was saying he would just bump my head like that and I would I'd try to go back and do it again U and we would do that for a long time what's a long time well in M it would be like over an hour I would say at least because he would take me through the whole match the next day um how would he take you through the match just just give me a short example of how that would start out he' say what I tell you we were going to work on in tomorrow's match this is very important I said just go through it with me say we're going to work on Sur voling and he would say okay what are you going to do i' say I'm going to come into net and then what and then I'm going to close off the net and then what and then I'm going to anticipate where he's going to hit the ball and then what and then on the next on the on the next point I'm going to not come into that right and I'm going to take the short balls on the rise instead and come in he said okay and then what said in the next point I'm going to serve valy why are we doing this throw the kid off okay said tell me again say I'm going to serve vol and the Clos the net and then what and we go through the whole thing and he say good how many times would you go through it almost like he's giving them giving Lyall like meditations and affirmations and things to do to improve himself mentally and you know become more um intuitive and you know listen trust to his trust is instincts and all that but it just it's a terrible way to go about it and to force him into like this weird trans like state where you've got your knees in between each others and you're bumping its head when he gets something wrong like this this is not normal um which is why we're talking about it because uh most parents don't do this with their kids the match is he was just do it twice depending on what it was or sometimes a couple times then we would go through the my whole strategy and depending on what strategy I was using and he would want to know how I'm going to throw my opponent off sometimes let me take you back to going through the match how long would it take you to go through the match point by point a good part of the conversation maybe like 40 minutes okay were there times that he would also talk to you about philosophy yes and did he have a particular book that he liked to teach you about yes and what was that book that was the greatest salesman in the world and did he have you have you memorize substantial portions of the book certain passages um I'm memorized and um was this of passages were blacked out so the things he didn't agree with he blacked out Jud call why did he black out certain parts of the book same objection did he tell you why he blacked out certain portions of the book uh yes he told me that they weren't relevant that this was a great author and he had written a book that was a special book and for everybody but that only certain passages pertained to me and uh and my ancestors and basically just certain passages so those are the ones I memorized do you remember any of them today not too many of them um I remember uh most of the titles of the passages I remember some of the passages was there one in particular that was important to him about sheep there were two that were important one was um I will Master my emotions I will be the master of my emotions was very important um and I knew that one because Jose was such a good master of his emotions and kitty neither one of them could control their emotions or their Rage or their anger but yet he's sitting here making his son say affirmations over and over again that he can control his emotions got it okay can you do it first part of it by heart yeah it's um if I feel depressed I will be master of my emotions today I will be master of my emotions if I feel depressed I will sing if I feel sad I will laugh if I feel ill I will double my labor if I feel fear I will plunge ahead if I feel inferior I will wear new garments if I feel poverty I will think of wealth to come if I feel insignificant I will remember my goals I will be Master my emotions this same uh part of the book that the paragraph about friends is in why was mastering your emotions important it was it was really uh crucial to Dad and a great sign of weakness to display emotion happy or sad as there's another passage I don't remember as well about being too happy too confident um too pleased with yourself to remember your failures and uh things of that sort so neither one somebody just unemotional that you couldn't read um what was the advantage to that did he explain to you yeah you couldn't you couldn't be read um in the sports context that's all that would be not to give away what you're feeling especially with regards to me who seem to have a problem with uh nerves fear inability to another line I forgot is if I feel uncertain I will raise my voice and uh that's um problem I had uh speech problems things of that sort they were very important for me if I could Master these things I could reach my goals um and were there also passages in there that talked about people being better than other people the people who were going to succeed versus the PE people who were going to fail the sheep and um that was also pertaining to friends that's the passage that we recited most often because it had to do with my ancestors and that went that I was not born into this world in defeat nor does failure course within my veins um and then it would go I'm not a I'm not a sheep waiting to be pred by my shepherd I am a lion and I refuse to walk and to talk and to sleep with the sheep and I will hear not those who weep and complain for their disease is contagious let them join the sheep and we would say that at the end of most of our talks in Muny and then we we sort of didn't say it as much later on um but that was the theme that uh other kids weren't trained in the way I was they didn't come from the same bloodline and they had this disease of mediocrity and it was contagious and and to stay away from and that it was very tempting and I was a weak person and I had I seemed to be tempted for some reason to hang out with other kids and uh I needed to remind myself so it's a sin and you're not supposed to do it basically like you're in the wrong for wanting to have friends how dare you wanting to be normal that's so we worked on it when your dad talked about the uh superiority was this from both the Menendez and the Anderson side that is both your father and your mother's side of the family or was this just when my dad talked about it yes um no he totally disregarded my mom's side of the family um what was wrong with your mom's side of the family wasn't anything wrong with it it just wasn't want what he wanted me to have in my head he just didn't think that anything any of them had done anything of any significance and uh you know my name was Joseph and uh that I should pretty much disregard whatever my mother tells me about her side of the family because it just confuses things and uh he wanted to keep things very simple so I knew basically my dad's history and only bits and pieces of my mother when she would uh be telling me about her family in these talks that you had would would your dad talk to you about setting goals and Meeting those goals yes what kinds of things would he say um he would my life was structured with little goals and uh he would say that uh we need to set short-term goals and some of these were like to fix the flaws that I seem to have with walking what kind of flaws did you have with regard to walking time question you said that he talked about flaws with walking did you have a problem with the way you walked at some point in time yes when I still do I think what was wrong with the way you walked just with the feet outward and besides talking to you about it as a goal as a flaw to be corrected how else did he deal with this flaw of yours made fun made fun of all our anything like that he made fun of in our family the walking he would walk behind me and make quacking noises and say walk like a duck and get a to make quacking noises would this be done on a public Street yes with people around wow yes did that embarrass you yes what other flaws did he set to as goals to be corrected I'm going to pause it here and just keep it at that guy is a total POS I'm sorry I Can I some people the world is better without just saying anyways that's this is been a pretty rough session we're just through the first part we have several more to go plus cross so we will get through it bear with me um I know this topic is tough It's triggering I can see it's triggering for Lyle just talking about it it's triggering for Eric to hear it it's pretty um terrible the things that they went through all the trauma all the stress on their bodies that they went through for those many years in that house and fearing for your life because your father said he take your life if you told anybody so there's that um and you know your father's powerful and strong and has money and power and you know in a world of a 1920 something year old it's uh your parents are all you have you don't you haven't really experienced the world yet so you're terrified and you feel stuck if you're in an abusive situation you feel stuck as it is anyways so um they really didn't have anywhere else to turn in my opinion and um I think they did what they did out of fear for sure um especially after hearing Dr Anne Burgess and her testimony I I am convinced that that's why they did it and hearing the boys now or at least ly you can't fake that kind of emotion you can't fake the stress and the triggering that's happening in his body while he's still remembering these things so you can't fake that stuff you even a total psychopath can't fake emotions that well so um I definitely think these boys were victims of their father and now they're victims of the justice system what do you guys think please let me know in the comments below as always and also um I will see you guys on Thursday for part two of the Lyall Mendez Direct examination and I hope to see you then bye guys [Music]