German border control controversy | Krzysztof Jaworski

[Music] hello this is saachi mikos welcoming you to World talks where every word matters German government decided to reintroduce border controls with all the country's neighbors to cover the influx of illegal migrants the decision however sparked much controversies just a cross the border with Polish just across the border polish prime minister Donald Tusk um has been calling it unacceptable and to discuss the ISS Year we're joined by Kristoff yavorski director of The Institute of security and International Development expert in security and international Affairs thank you for joining us today thank you for inviting me today it's good to be here with you so um how are the Border controls to impact the transfer of goods and people all across the Union because I guess that if Germany closes its borders it won't affect just Poland or any any other of German neighbors but it's all the union that will suffer there measures taken on polish Germany border from the last year and now uh prolonged and new measures that will be in place in other land borders of Germany are disturbing flow of goods are disturbing flow of people it affects tourism it affects business it is inconvenience for every people who are crossing Germany borders and uh it is really significant what German minister of interior Naser announced recently that there will be other measures at uh borders because uh it is a huge blow in shenen area it is something that uh as we know from the Polish government uh wasn't U the Polish government for example wasn't informed about that so even if after taking this decision Germany notified it to European commission and notified it to affected countries it is something something that creates another tension with uh between Germany and their neighbors talking about tensions Let's uh let's listen now to polish prime minister criticizing the uh the German move Poland does not need increased controls on the German border Poland needs increased involvement of other states including Germany in helping to secure the European Union's external borders in the coming hours we will approach other states affected by Berlin's decisions and ask for immediate talks about Berlin's decision I hope that joint pressure and the spirit of the European Union will lead to a correction of German thinking on illegal immigration do you agree with Donald Tusk that the the spirit of the European Union may lead to a correction of German thinking of illegal immigration or is there something else at stake than just the Spirit uh of of the Union I fully agree with what prime minister Tusk said uh on this uh issue because it is indeed unacceptable for other countries because it is against the rules of European Union even if is within the exceptional uh exceptions to the rule of free free flow of humans inside of shenen area which can be stopped under special circumstances such as uh risk for internal policy or internal security uh it is uh something that uh goes too far because Germany is uh giving uh well it Germany telling other countries uh don't count on us because uh you got problems for example on your external borders of European union and we won't help you with this external borders to uh to make something with this problem when it starts we will just care of ourselves and it uh in my opinion it uh undermines the position of Germany as a country which is aspiring to be uh seen as a leader of European union and European integration mhm MH uh Donald Tusk also um called on uh EU consultations on the matter the question is uh whether Brussels can lift this uh this German uh German measures on on borders it was it will be indeed interesting if there will be some uh dispute for example legal dispute between European Union for example commission and German government however I think that we can look at this in uh different levels because in this practical level uh it is uh really doubtful in my opinion that Germany is able to fully execute what it announced because uh they didn't uh maintain such border controls for last years so they probably have not enough uh border guards to uh execute this what they announced however on this symbolic uh level it is uh of great significance got because it goes against uh this rules of uh shenen area we mentioned before mhm mhm uh right you mentioned uh Nancy faser talking about the interial um minister of of Germany talking about uh the issue and I'd like us now to to listen to her uh addressing uh the migrants uh the issue with migrants in in Germany let's give it to listen we have had border controls with the Czech Republic Poland Austria and Switzerland since October since then we have already carried out 30,000 deportations we also need effective rment at the external borders which is why we believe that we must continue to take action there this is absolutely necessary in order to further reduce irregular migration and we have a kind of Gap until the implementation of the common European Asylum system which we have to fill now it is very important than in the two years until the individual regulations come into Force we can continue to implement concrete effective and efficient reement measures that comply with European law so I have two questions uh because n phaser uh talked about 30,000 deportations uh which already have taken place so this you know closing borders maybe not closing borders but rein reducing uh these controls is it effective if we have this number 30,000 well seems quite substantial but then she uh she also uh mentioned some future uh measures uh Germany is about to to introduce so what would they be it is hard to say yet how effective these measures are because uh as I mentioned before it will be really hard and Germany probably doesn't have enough border guards enough founding for their border guards to maintain the security controls and effectively blocking inflow of illegal migrants into Germany and at the same time this measures they are taking now is not some is not solution for the problems because it creates another problems it creates tension against uh their neighbors for example Poland but it's not only polish prime minister that uh called this decision unacceptable it's as well Austria government uh there were as well Luxembourg response they didn't criticize it uh in the in the same way however they said that it will cause uh the great uh effort of their own policy to maintain Security in Luxembourg and uh at the same time uh it's something that this decision was made under huge internal pressure huge pressure because of domestic problems with elections because uh it's both opposition of conservatives of T CSU and of alternative for for Germany afd which uh won last uh Regional elections and next Regional elections in Brandenburg will take place in some weeks so uh it's under huge pressure of internal uh of internal election rivalry and it's not part of well planned strategy it's not part of something that is well uh well designed to resolve this problems uh but it's uh some way of trying to uh well to to to solve these problems but uh it probably won't be effective I see but the question about German internal politics is whether uh afd voters can be you know swayed away from voting for alternative for dut uh into you know voting for SPD or or Christian democrats because that's what's uh was the gamble about and and do you think it is possible that you know these hardliners voting for The far ride will now suddenly uh decide to change their mind and to to vote for SP for example as far as we know it's not only hardliners that are voting for afd now because some of people who was rather neutral or considerating other choices that were afraid because there were a lot of uh news about immigration problems there were this uh last uh deadly attack of terrorist in zingan in West Germany three people died so uh migration is uh part very important part of political discussion in Germany in recent months it's not something that started right now so I think that uh this move is uh well they're trying to uh take some of this new voters who who supported afd in this Regional elections and they are trying as well to take voters V voters uh or well uh because CDU is as well pushing to harder line on migration issues they are yes it is radicalizing I mean this this is this is pretty strange because uh well for for many decades the uh the Christian democrats were rather considered to be well of course conservative but then again very open openminded when it comes to open doors policy precisely precisely so it has changed dramatically that's right and uh it is the same as with public opinion in Germany because now More than 70% of Germany citizens are in favor of uh permanent border controls they are afraid they are considering it real risk real threat for their security so uh yes German is changing uh right now on our eyes uh I think that it's the end of this hsh wiom and policy introduced by Angela Merkel back in 2010 and now we need to accommodate we need to adapt to New Germany policy and uh as we discussed previously uh the Polish stance of this matter I think that polish government should keep this pressure on Germany because uh even if German German government has its own domestic problems uh it cannot not freely choose any solution that affects their neighbors and is against the rules of European Union Yes but talking about Germany's neighbors we can see that a very similar discourse is emerging these very days in the Netherlands uh in Austria as well so is is this the beginning of the end of the shenen zone as we know it I think it is uh too early to say that uh so uh with so much pressure on this end it is significant move it is real blow to shenen area but I think it's too early to announce the end of uh shenen area however I I know that uh for example prime minister Tusk used this term in his yesterday's speech about uh comment about this uh decision of German government right now more and more countries across Europe are talking about introducing similar measures uh to to UK measures I'm I'm talking about the Rwanda scheme right it's already happening in in Italy and uh are Germans ready to deport Asylum Seekers or illegal migrants whatever you call them to distant camps I'm talking about historical affiliations here yes uh I think that we need to wait for what are this propositions that Nancy faser announced that are now uh being prepared by her Ministry interior Ministry and uh well at first I think that what they will try to do is this uh to push further with this uh stopping uh migrants on their borders and uh making them go back to the country inside of European Union in which these migrants uh were crossing external border of European union and in which they are uh well getting ailum so uh whether it will be possible for Germany to for example send this people back to their country of origin outside of European Union I think it's too early to discuss this matter future will tell Christo yavorski director of The Institute of security and International Development expert in security and international Affairs was our guest this afternoon thank you very much thank you very much and thank you for watching and stay with us for more some more World talks is coming up next