Could border controls imposed by Germany threaten EU unity? | On The Record

good evening and welcome to on the record my name is Adam yasa this was supposed to be an auspicious week for the European Union at the start of the 5-year term of its new executive commission and Parliament instead we saw delays with commission nominations and a between Germany and its EU neighbors over Berlin's decision to introduce controls at all of its borders on the record the German government says this is a temporary measure to counter irregular migration in practice the decision undermines Europe's core principle of freedom of movement and shows that a country which is supposed to be the driving force of European integration has a curious propensity to act with little regard for its partners for months German police have been conducting random checks at the country's borders with Poland the Czech Republic Switzerland and Austria starting Monday the controls will extend to Denmark the Netherlands Belgium Luxembourg and France German Chancellor Olaf schz argues the controls have already significantly reduced irregular migration despite irritating Poland and others we have been successful with this and we will continue this successful approach incidentally we are also doing this although it is becoming difficult with our neighbors Poland reacted furiously to the decision siding with analysts who saw the move as a reaction to the Chancellor's poor electoral showing in the local elections in Saxony and Thia where anti-immigration parties scored big victories last week this type of action is unacceptable from the Polish point of view after all I have no doubt that it is the internal political situation in Germany which is causing these steps to be implemented and not our policy towards illegal immigration on our borders today we need the full support of Germany and of the entire European Union in helping to organize fund and arm our eastern border including in the context of illegal migration to get to the bottom of this story I'm joined here in the studio by anre BT former polish Deputy foreign minister ambassador to Berlin and Paris as well welcome good morning rather always afternoon and joining us uh remotely from Berlin is Professor Daniel asara a management board member at b manong and a leading European Union analyst welcome Professor schwarza thank you very much very happy to join you so to get straight into into business um you know ambor a bit Poland said it was calling on the EU to react um but Chancellor Schultz insists that this is normal this is part of the rule book it's temporary and it's working so is is Poland overreacting let's say that it's a reaction German reaction on the situation within the Germany particularly the results of the last two elections in osta in turingan and in Saxony and as well as the um sentiments which exist in Brandenburg which is the next uh election place which will take soon so that's a to certain extent fight against right-wing extremists who are basing their arguments but is it is it a fight against right-wing extremism or is it as some analysts are arguing uh caving into uh rightwing and leftwing I would say it's I would say a very pragmatic step made by the political authorities of Germany to um slow down the arguments being presented by alternative Dutchland which is right-wing movement in Germany which is basing its argumentations on fears which may exist in heads of some of the German citizens so they say we would like to show that the German government is using the instruments which are included into the shenen agreement okay but presumably but presumably prime minister Tusk understands this so why is he reacting so why is he reacting so strongly why is he calling on other EU Partners to do something about it well he knows very well the reaction of all the other EU partners and they are not very fond of so he probably would like to remind our German friends that this has to be a temporary uh sanction or mean to be used legally with the rules of shenen agreement and then to take into account the fact that they has to strengthen their own internal policy so as to so as to stop dangers of such dramatic events like the one in zingan right okay um now Professor schatza what is your view on this you know Poland is arguing that irregular migration the challenge requires strengthening the external borders of the EU rather than playing uh fast and loose with with internal borders and undermining shenen I think it is correct that we need a longer term solution which can only consist in developing our way of processing migration at the eu's external borders however the measures now taken by Germany are seen as temporary by the Cur current government I understand the criticism and and the fears that come with Germany pulling up its borders and I also think that a lot more could have been done to communicate and explain what is happening and why it is happening but of course and here I agree with the analysis shared by the Ambassador the the reason why this is happening now and why this is happening so rapidly is the domestic political situation in our country it is not just the two Regional elections which brought migration critical parties into strong positions it is also another Regional election coming up uh at the end of this month and then there are federal elections uh at the latest in September 2025 I'm giving all of these dates to show that the domestic pressure will remain high on the current government which has really lost in terms of support uh citizens uh look at the policies very critically however it is really the far right and to some extent the far-left that has put the migration issue so Central and in in normal circumstances we will already have some reaction from the from the European commission right at the moment the commission is it because of the commission is in transition or are they watching the situation normally they would defend the shenen the free travel uh arrang ments in Europe it's pretty striking that you know now we're talking about nine countries in the heart of Europe yes I think there are two reasons one is uh I think the German case is being investigated and even within the German debate uh there are there are competing opinions some argue this perfectly fits the shenen regime there's a temporary measure that has been put up uh and it it will when it is withdrawn we are back to shenen so it's not seen as undermining but using uh the provisions of shenen but there are others also legal Scholars who argue that uh the conditions for these measures which would essentially mean a a state of emergency a sudden momentum that requires uh drastical measures is not really given and this needs to be solved and I think before that is solved the European commission can't pronounce itself and the other region is reason is indeed that we are in a transition phase and Brussels as well uh although uh the European commission president oosa ferine has been reconfirmed uh the commission as such is is in transition so I would expect this issue to take some time to be um tackled by Brussel so there's no one to react is that what you're saying well there is someone of course the the commission president is there but as I said it would not be the moment to make a political judgment on this matter it is a legal question which isn't entirely solved at the moment and we have two competing readings of this if you listen to the German Chancellor he will state something that is in opposition to what uh the prime minister of Poland has said about the measures and I think legal Scholars equally disagree over the matter right well I I I I'm delighted that both of you agree that there's a measure of politics in all this domestic politics um and this is what the prime minister of Poland also said but he's not alone be let me read you read you this this quote from y laau a veteran German journalist and commentator he said quote political competition in Germany is now about shutting the borders to our neighbors dialing down Ukraine assistance and refusing common European debt for much needed investment Europe's supposed lead nation is dropping the ball uh would anyone dare to defend Germany here in this studio Ambassador you you have the appetite to defend German well no I would say that the government German government is facing now one of the most difficult periods in the history of postwar um after the unification of both parts of the today's Federal Republic of Germany and I think this value which is the to stabilize the Democracy within the country is worth taking sometimes a dramatic decisions that's one of them that's one of them uh I remember I still have in front of my myself when I was obtaining in the year 2 I think three from the hands of the then interior minister of German government Otto shili the first rules of shenen agreement as the first of the new countries likely to join the European Union in three years time and then I remember we've been discussing at the time exactly these cases where the shenen agreement can be suspended for a while and for which occasion he said at the time only only in a dramatic situations and we are just living through such a period so I'm I'm not sure professor professor schat will will agree with with this assessment that um that the situation is really so dramatic in Germany when it comes to U migration uh the number of Asylum Seekers has dropped significantly from last year down by 30 or 40% uh and and it seems that it's a bit of a Panic reaction on the on the part of the chancellor not really paying attention to what effect it has on Partners on the EU coherence and so on so forth so again you know um you know I find it ironic and I'm I'm I'm All EAS to to to hear your opinion about this that the irony is that instead of being successful this strategy um he's now getting praise from uh from farri leaders saying brilliant move you know finally you joined our c isn't that embarrassing for a Social Democrat Chancellor Professor schatza it is correct to say that um the numbers of Asylum Seekers arriving uh in Germany is down compared to last year or or years before there have been Peaks remember the year 2015 when Germany took in about a million of Asylum Seekers from Syria in particular but also Afghanistan and other neighboring countries so the situation today is is no longer that but the the the the total number of of people that have come to Germany and uh that still have a status where they can't be fully integrated into the labor market and hence need to be supported financially need to be hosted and and all of these practical things that come with it that is indeed a strain in particular on municipalities and some of them not all of them some of them feel they are really at a limit and can't take in more this is where this debate comes from we can't take in more it's not not the actual number of arrivals per day but it is the fact of handling many that have arrived over time and giving them a decent chance uh to live and integrate uh into structures and German Society but there is of it's all true I I can appreciate that but at the same time it was Germany that made again a unilateral decision back in 2015 to open open the borders and say uh we shaen us we we managed this everybody's welcome so in a sense now that it's problematic it's Shifting the responsibility to its neighbors yes and we we discussed that I think in the on the show that there is a lot of short-termism and political reaction in in what we are seeing happening now it's it's the elections it's the fact that European policy does not yet bring the results that everyone wishes for that there is no problem with a single market and borders can be kept open because there is a good European system that handles migration collectively and what we don't see right now is the full implementation of the European laws that have been passed so there is some hope but it is true that Germany has badly surprised some of its neighbors uh with the recent measures and that there is a lot of criticism so I think we are at a moment in time where consultations with our neighbors are are really crucial also uh the announced short-term measures they need to come to an end uh and there needs to be a transparent communication by the political leadership in Berlin um as to the point when this moment is and what is then going to be done so let's just go back for a moment to but let's go back for a moment just to the pure politics of it you know is it going to work for for Chancellor Schultz or is it going to be too little too late uh an embarrassing Retreat and and again I want to go back to this endorsement by the likes of Victor Orban or G Builders you know is in in other words is chancellor Schultz credible in these activities and is it going to improve his result in in the next local election this weekend I think the question is bigger for him in terms of rebuilding trust among German voters and regaining points in opinion polls it cannot just must be migration but indeed migration is the most pressing issue that in particular far right uh and farle politicians who are migration critical have really pushed onto the domestic agenda that comes with a huge price and we discussed the European implications there's also a domestic implication uh because if uh a political leader Services uh the far rights arguments in a way that the Mis distrust within Society Visa migrants increases uh this situation domestically gets more and more difficult and it is not just Olaf Schulz you know he he has a moderate tone when he speaks about migration but we see other in particular conservative politicians who really use parts of the rhetoric that the far right has uh brought to the Forefront but the chancellor indeed after Regional elections which haven't brought uh great results for the SPD quite the contrary and one year ahead of the federal elections will have to do much more more than just working on migration to recil eyesee a story what the social Democrats stand for in Germany and that must go beyond migration that has to concern economic policy and other elements right okay well let's go back to polish Affairs for a moment um there were high hopes that the change of government uh in Poland would lead to a better cooperation maybe German polish leadership of the EU uh but prime minister Tusk seems increasingly frustrated with with Germany on a number of issues it's not just the question of migration but also you know the question of compensation for victims of Nazi Germany some of the EU policies lack of decisive leadership if you will um what does it tell you about the future what can we expect from in terms of Polish German relations um the change of government in Poland as a result of the ctions on 15th of October last year has as a matter has changed I would say the overall climate as far as the attitudes towards the bilateral contacts are concerned but then there is still a number of questions which have to be treated in a very pragmatic way and you rightly notice the fact that our prime minister has expressed some doubts concerning for instance the um sometimes too slow reaction of our German Partners on certain vital issues like for instance compensation towards still living and still being reduced small group of those who did survived the second world war but were dramatically touched by the aftermath of it um there is also some things concerning exactly these blockage of the our Frontiers um some other things but I the major point however is that the European Union and is an organization which was growing over years as a result in conflicts and through dialogue so I not afraid that things have suffed and were officially presented ER I think that as a result of that our contacts German and polish contact will have to be more intensive and I think both sides have already noticed it this need for speeding up our dialogue and well you speaking like a true Diplomat always optimistic no always trying to find no no always trying to find a exit from a conflict oriented or potentially conflict directed situation so uh I would say I'm not I wouldn't like to overdramatize both uh presentations by our prime minister saying he said openly what he thought and now it's time for to to face those potential minor or bigger conflicts and try to solve it all right I I um I Surrender let's draw the line under this and let's move to um to the second topic today which is Mario dr's report on the future of Europe Mario Mario dr's much anticipated 400 page report makes five key points the European Union must mobilize at least 750 billion EUR annually to compete with the US and China China playback competition poses a threat to the eu's clean tech and Automotive Industries the EU must stem its brain drain stop the exitus of promising startups and boost Innovation to keep up with the US and China to reduce dependence on China in critical Industries the EU must prioritize trade agreements with other resourcer countries EU member states must align their defense spending and procurement to boost their power against threats emanating from Russia dragy who was president of the European C c bank was credited for saving the Euro during the great financial crisis warned the EU leaders that failure to reform would push Europe into a terminal decline do this I mean Implement your report or die it's it's do this or it's a slow Agony well people in that room laughed but is it is it a laughing matter professor schwarzer no it's a very very serious report it's a very good report and the diagnosis that Mario dragy presents uh is is sober but but absolutely true I mean he speaks about uh lowered productivity the question of our future Workforce aging population the need for investment into infrastructure research and development this is a very long list but I think every single point on it is is extremely important so in a way it's a it's a big wake up call and it comes at the right moment just at the beginning of the new five-year term and uh European leaders and the European commission I think really should work by his Playbook because he has a very holistic view of Europe's competitive Challenge and he names very clearly to what extent we are as Europeans under Global geoeconomic and geopolitical pressures so we need to take care of our own competitiveness precisely because we are living in a far more volatile security environment we need to protect uh our assets and what we have in terms of economic strength and we will in the future have to spend more on defense and so for that we need a solid economic base right but it seems to me you know that reaction in both Germany and Poland to the report actually wasn't very strong um in Germany because it's consumed by these domestic considerations as a matter of fact in Germany the main point discussed about the dragy report was that it would involve more death that which is a which is a favorite Topic in in Germany rather than concentrating on some of the more constructive proposal what to do for example about the European Auto industry um so is this report going to go back yes please go ahead yeah this is precisely the wrong debate that we are having in Germany right now and again it is I think an expression of the domestic political situation there's one trigger word and that's European debt in the report and rather than discussing what we need to do we discuss what we surely don't want to do and I think uh Germany which is uh more than a quarter of the GDP of the Eurozone should read dr's list of deficiencies really as one that very much also concerns Germany and the solution we need to find for our own domestic uh economic model has so much to do with the European Union because we are very open very export oriented we need the single market and there is a need in the German debate but also in the European Union as a whole to really change the mindset and change the narrative about growing together and becoming more competitive together and right now what we are seeing is a no to Joint funding and I think that's really the old thinking that if Germany pays it's for the others my view is completely different we need to invest in Europe and we need to do so together we need to find the best way of raising money in the financial markets uh to we've already done that as Europe before right around Co that was a successful operation and it didn't really cost German taxpayer that much or did it no and I think that is a real model the Next Generation EU fund which was put out at the time of covid to fund economic transition green transition digital transition and to help uh the economy back on its feet uh to Foster growth that is an example the conditions for the boring were very good um also there was an interesting element of attaching conditionality to the European money spent meaning um for instance I have to I have to interrupt the I'm sure conditionality is not a word that Ambassador B will like to hear what's your view on conditionality for EU money uh well uh that's not the major problem the major problem is which has been treated in the dragi had ABS was absolutely right to show his report is that the European Union has been left behind the two big Powers world powers which is today still the United States and China he gave in his report a number of cases where for instance European unicorns which means new startups which make 1 billion EU of turnover per year oneir disappeared and went to the United States why because the United States is the country which gave freedom economic freedom the priority which have remain in we we got stuck into R red tape and that's why among others I'm as you have already noticed to certain extent shocked that no polish politician or even better such scientists like Le balovich so far hasn't said anything about the report Poland is the country which should have now it's real presentation what we did because during last 35 years since our change Poland was the country who presented a dynamism which was unmatched by any other EU country I'm very sorry to say to my colleague from Germany we were had much higher speed growth rate than had our friends from Germany that was a very big approval of the effect of the Pol efficiency of the political change in Poland but it concerns the European Union we we were overruled by uh over regulations it concerns both Poland and Germany and very many other European countri and dragy mentioned that by the way yes exactly that's the point to give entrepreneurs but also ourselves the authorities economic authorities of all the EU member countries more freedom say them stop producing overregulation it strangles the initiative I'm sure everybody would agree with this but the thing seems to be that there is still lack of political will to implement this well that's true let's see what happens in the coming weeks Ambassador B thank you very much for being with us Professor schwarer thank you thank you for having me thank you for watching this was on the record and I hope to see you next week [Music]