Is the UK’s arms suspension on Israel a meaningful shift? | The Take

[Music] Al jazer podcasts today the UK hits the breakes sort of on arms to Israel we've got to take this as a victory it's only a partial Victory but it is a victory nonetheless it's important what's London signaling with that move I'm Malika Bilal and this is the take [Music] here's how the UK government announced a major change in its support for Israel's war on Gaza with Contrition and at length it is with regret that I inform the house today the assessment I have received leaves me unable to conclude anything other than that for certain UK arms exports to Israel there does exist a clear risk that they might be used to commit or facilitate a serious violation of international humanitarian law foreign secretary David lamby went on to assure Israel he's not a foe throughout my life I have been a friend of Israel a liberal Progressive Zionist who believes in Israel as a democratic State and a Homeland for the Jewish people the partial arms ban affects parts for fighter jets helicopters and drones but not F-35 five Jets which some Watchdog groups say are being used to bomb Gaza this was not done by convincing some individuals in this ministry it was done under extreme pressure they really felt they didn't have any option but to do at least this and we have to make sure they go further my name is Nick Deen I run a campaign organization called Global Justice now and we are fighting for a more fair equal and peaceful world love the sound of that Nick welcome to the take let's start with what happened in the UK Parliament this week foreign secretary David Lamy made waves when he stood in front of the parliament on Monday and announced the UK would be suspending some arms export licenses to Israel citing a clear risk that they could be used in breaches of international humanitarian law what were your initial thoughts when you heard this announcement so it's taken a very long time for a British government to respond in anything like the way that we think would be appropriate to the absolute horror that's been unfolding in Gaza and you know when you look at the pictures coming out of Gaza you realize that these exports have been helping Israel in its Relentless criminal destruction of Gaza including the murder of tens of thousands of civilians so it's important that they have done that it's important they will no longer be providing those goods and I think in the very dark time we're living in we need to celebrate our victories however small when they happen having said that there it is we don't often get to start our conversations with optimism so I like that you did that but here is the caveat please continue here's the caveat I mean it is only 30 licenses out of 350 licenses that we have open with Israel at the moment what the government's trying to do here is make a distinction between things that are offensive and things that are defensive so they have been at pains distress Israel has a right to defend itself and they have defined most of the stuff that we send to Israel even though they are in one way or another military exports uh to Define them as defensive and to say look Israel may need these because um it may come under attack from neighboring countries from Hezbollah or from Iran or wherever and therefore we need to keep sending this now we think that distinction given the gravity of what is happening in Gaza at the moment is completely meaningless and in particular we are still providing parts for F35 fighter jets the most lethal fighter jet in the world according to Loy Martin its manufacturer we export those to the United States where they are turned into the full fighter jet and they are then exported on to Israel we know those things have been used extensively in Gaza we have evidence of that and you know that's the tip of the iceberg I mean there is all sorts of you know British military bases on Cyprus We Believe have been used by the Americans to send military um equipment into Israel there are reports of British spy planes in the area that have potentially been assisting Israel the depth of military cooperation is huge so this begs the question then why do this at all because as you mentioned that caveat there secretary Lamy was clear with what this decision is and what it's not and it seems like he's walking a tight rope almost third this is not a blanket ban this is not an arms embargo but we also have Lambie saying he's a Zionist who stands with Israel and then announcing as you said that This only affects 30 out of 350 arms licenses that's reportedly less than 1% of Israel's total weapons Imports so what is the UK's motivation here who are they trying to please with this decision so the UK government has been under enormous pressure for this whole year I mean public opinion in this country is very clear that we should not be exporting arms at this time to Israel for very obvious reasons most people do not enjoy watching a genocide and do not want to believe that their government is complicit in that genocide of course that public opinion as you might expect is particularly strong towards the left of the political spectrum and I don't actually think it's about politics and it's a widely shared view but certainly if you look at the backgrounds of many of the new labor members of parliament who've come in they are likely to be more susceptible to that pressure and than the conservative government previously and they felt I think that they they had to do something as a result of that pressure and in particular they have come under direct legal challenge so there are organizations that have them in court at the moment saying you know you need to review your actions because it's not consistent with our own law with our own legal system that you're exporting this stuff we released a report just a couple of weeks ago from a top Barrister here saying um look you personally may be liable for this that's the scale of the human rights abuses that we're talking about mean that you senior civil servants and ministers may be liable for this and only again only a couple of weeks ago a senior civil servant who has been responsible for working on arms control and so I'm resigned he said I cannot do this job any longer and I am extremely sad to be resigning but I am not being listened to here so I think they recognized that there were going to be consequences for the government and potentially for them personally if they didn't do something so they did something but why didn't they just ban arms to Israel altoe yeah and that's the key question isn't it and I think there are two there are two reasons I mean one you you you've seen from the way that secretary lamby spoke about Israel and his you know his liberal Zionism and whatever he is desperate not to upset Israel too much um and I think there are various reasons for that but in particular we have very very close economic defense and Military cooperation with Israel because Israel has cuttingedge technologies that are used in population control and they are War tested and they are being War tested in Gaza at this moment and we do not want to cut ourselves off from those Technologies so I think that's one reason I think the other reason is frankly the United States and a desperation on the part of this government not to upset the United States Administration not to upset a potential Trump Administration in the future so Trump's National Security secretary was was over in London just last week and he was warning there would be dire consequences if the UK went too far but whether we have a government or the right or the left they have tended to tow that line and they knew that the United States was urging them not to go too far after the break if this partial arms ban is not enough what would [Music] be Nick you know that you wrote in a tweet recently there are big reasons why Britain has been so bad on the genocide in Gaza including deep strategic subservience to the US do you think the UK now led by the labor party is breaking that subservience at least a little bit I have to be honest I don't think it is I don't think there is any willingness in this Administration to break the subservience with the US the political class in this country as I say whether it be represented by a labor government or a conservative government has recognized since the second world war that part of this country's Prestige and Power in the world comes from being a subservient power to the US a junior partner as they like to put it a lap dog or a poodle as we often call it to say we have no independent foreign policy I mean the country is lited with American bases and they see that as a way of maintaining power and prestige in the world I think that is bad I think it is bad um because it means that we are complicit in all manner of horrific military operations and human rights abuses around the world you only need to look at Tony Blair and George Bush in Iraq and the opposition they engendered in this country so I think as things stand at the moment they are desperate to walk a tight rope as you've said that does not upset the senior partner in our relationship too much and so the idea of an independent foreign policy is severely constrained and as I say I personally think that that's one of the big battles ahead for the movement in this country and those who want to see a different way of working in this country then we actually develop an independent foreign policy at long last wow okay well then speaking of walking that tight rope to just keep that analogy going are they succeeding because as we know that's a very hard thing to do takes immense skill are they succeeding or are they just angering everyone yeah I think that's the concern I mean I mean the opposition spokesperson Andrew Mitchell said after David Lamy made his announcement you are trying not to upset Israel too much at the same time as to please some of the people who are really angry at the moment I fear you will succeed in neither and I think that precisely is what we may be looking at we know Israel was deeply unhappy with Britain's decision as they should have been I believe because it speaks volumes about the level of barbarity that they are committing in garter at this moment but they were not at all happy at the same time the vast majority of people who've been campaigning on this think it is too little too late and they need to go much much further well speaking of the Israeli response Israel's prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu condemned the ban and called it shameful you mentioned he wrote on X tweeting with or without British arms Israel will win this war so that is the view from Israel but I want to shift to another point you raised which is the people what would be good for the people of the UK because the UK has seen some of the biggest Pro Palestine marches in its history in recent months they're still continuing this is now Pro Palestinian demonstration number 15 in London and the campaigners the Marchers trying to keep the momentum going keep that pressure on the politicians this comes alongside those resignations that you mentioned earlier from UK officials over F sales to Israel and now we're seeing this partial ban do you think that the government is coming into step with public opinion when it comes to the UK's policy here or could this be the first step to a larger shift in policy look I think that's what we've got to make sure happens and this is really important and you know for any listeners in the region and in Palestine do not judge the opinions of the British people by the actions of the British government on this what is happening at the moment in Gaza has completely horrified a very large segment of our society you know reaching well beyond people who are normally involved in politics or normally critical of foreign policy we're watching a genocide being live streamed after all and most people don't like that and don't want to see it and don't want to be involved in it at the last election You know despite the fact that this government has ridden to power on a landslide essentially because the last government was so deeply unpopular none less five Independents were elected to Parliament eroding what should have been completely safe labor seats several other members including the front bench of the new administration were run extremely close by Independence running purely on a Gaza platform and as you say we've had absolutely enormous demonstrations I mean at the beginning you know the only thing I can compare it to in my lifetime were the demonstrations against the Iraq War when that first started and you know it is not often in this country that foreign policy fund Fally changes how people feel about a government the Iraq War was one of those occasions but I would say this is another of those occasions where really the labor party has only been in office for a few weeks it has enjoyed no honeymoon period whatsoever and there are several reasons for that but we shouldn't underestimate the importance of Gaza and their position on Gaza in that they have seriously annoyed and upset a really significant part of their base on this and so what we need to do is keep up that pressure and I don't see any sign whatsoever that that's going to be stopping anytime soon Nick you are campaigning for Global Justice for an end to the war in Gaza and imposing a full arms embargo on Israel you wrote in a recent oped on al.com a line that really has stuck with me ever since I read it Gaza has become a human rights free zone where history's first live stream genocide is taking place human rights free zone just really gives you chills if this partial arms ban is not enough what precisely would be so first of all I think a complete arms embargo should almost be a given at this point there is no way whatsoever that we should be supporting a military engaged in the most serious human rights abuses you can imagine up to an including genocide that's just I think obvious and we need to see that yesterday but actually I think we should go further this country is very interested our government is very interested in pursuing closer economic ties with Israel including they've announced negotiations on a new deeper Trade Agreement need to proceed as a priority that I believe is completely wrong for me this tells us that our government is interested in a deeper economic and Military relationship with Israel we've got to stop it we can't end an arms embargo we've got to say the the behavior year that Israel has shown in Gaza has no place in a civilized World it has no place when Israel does it but has no place when anyone does it any government does it and if we're to stop those kinds of Human Rights abuses if we're to stop those kind of war crimes we need to take a really strong position on that so I hope that some of what we've done here will give strength to the boycott sanctions and divestment movement because just as in South Africa in the early 1980s if we allow this kind of behavior to go unchallenged and unquestioned you know we are next we are next it may be extreme what's happening in Gaza but at some level this is a threat to every individual on the planet who wants to live in a different more peaceful and more democratic world and that's the take this episode was produced by S KH Amy Walters and Tamira kaker wasad haoshi haer damad Philip Lanos Hisham Abu Salah and me Malika bil it was edited by n wwz our sound designer is Alex ran Joe PL mix this episode Alexandra lock is the takes executive producer and Nate Alvarez is El's head of audio we'll be back tomorrow [Music]