'PUBLIC HUMILIATION': Freed political prisoner says Putin's regime could collapse

FLED THE REGION SINCE UKRAINE'S SURPRISE INCURSION. SO FOR MORE ON THE RUSSIA-UKRAINE WAR LIVE IS A MAN WHO SPENT TIME IN A RUSSIAN PRISON AND RELEASED IN THE BIGGEST EXCHANGE SINCE THE COLD WAR. PULITZER PRIZE WINNING VLADIMIR KARA-MURZA. CONGRATULATIONS, I KNOW THIS MUST BE A SURREAL TIME FOR YOU AND I WANT TO TALK ABOUT WHAT IT'S BEEN LIKE FOR YOU, BUT I WANT TO GET FIRST JUST YOUR REACTION TO THIS KEY BRIDGE TAKEN OUT AND THE UKRAINIAN PUSH INTO THE KURSK REGION. >> THE LAST TIME WE SPOKE SHORTLY BEFORE THE INVASION AND MY OWN ARREST. AND IT'S GOOD TO BE BACK. LOOK, WHEN PUTIN INVADED UKRAINE, THE ORIGINAL GOAL FOR THE KREMLIN WAS TO KYIV IN FIVE DAYS AND THAT'S WHAT THE RUSSIAN LEADERSHIP PROMISED VLADIMIR PUTIN THE DICTATOR, HE BELIEVED IT AND THAT'S WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU'RE IN POWER A QUARTER OF A CENTURY AND LIVE IN YOUR OWN PROPAGANDA BUBBLE AND BELIEVE YOUR OWN LIES. HE BELIEVED HE WOULD TAKE KYIV IN FIVE DAYS, NOT FIVE MONTHS, NOT IN TWO AND A HALF YEARS, WE'RE SEEING UKRAINIAN TROOPS ON OUR OWN TERRITORY IN RUSSIA AND THE FIRST TIME UKRAINIAN TROOPS ON RUSSIAN TERRITORY, REAL RECOGNIZED RUSSIAN TERRITORY SINCE GERMANY INVADED IN WORLD WAR II. AND IT'S A PUBLIC HUMILIATION FOR PUTIN. AND WE SEE THE LAST COUPLE OF CENTURIES, VERY OFTEN FAILED AGGRESSIVE WARS FOR REGIMES BY THEIR OWN POLITICAL PURPOSES END UP BACK FIRING BADLY ON THEM AND ACTUALLY LEAD TO SIGNIFICANT WINDOWS OF OPPORTUNITY FOR DEMOCRATIC CHANGE. FOR POLITICAL OPENING. THINK BACK TO THE CRIMA WAR WHICH ENDED IN A DISASTER FOR THE REGIME AND FOLLOWED BY THE LIBERAL REFORMS IN THE HISTORY OF RUSSIA, ALEXANDER II, TRIAL BY JURY, LOCAL ELECTED GOVERNMENT, AND SERVED THEM SO ON. THE BEGINNING OF THE 20TH CENTURY WITH THE HUMILIATION FOR THE RUSSIA-JAPANESE WAR, THE DEFEAT FOR THE RUSSIA EMPIRE, FOLLOWED BY A CONSTITUTIONAL MONARCHY WITH THE INTRODUCTION OF A PARLIAMENT AND IN OUR OWN LIFE SPANS IN THE 1980'S, THE DEFEAT OF THE SOVIET STAPLE, THE COMMUNIST SYSTEM IN THE COLD WAR AND MUCH MORE VISIBLY AND CONCRETELY, THE DISASTROUS INVASION OF AFGHANISTAN WAS A MAJOR TRIGGER FOR THE COLLAPSE OF THE COMMUNIST REGIME AND OPENING FOR A DEMOCRATIC RUSSIA IN THE 1990'S. THIS WAR OF AGGRESSION IN UKRAINE, THAT WAS LAUNCHED BY VLADIMIR PUTIN, YOU KNOW, HE WAS PLANNING THAT IT WOULD BE A TRIUMPH FOR HIM. IT'S ENDING UP AS PUBLIC HUMILIATION AND LIKELY IN MY OPINION NOT SO MUCH OF A POLITICIAN, BUT HISTORICALION, THIS WILL BE FOLLOWED BY THE COLLAPSE OF THE PUTIN REGIME AND AN OPPORTUNITY FOR A DEMOCRATIC RUSSIA, BUT FOR THAT TO HAPPEN, PUTIN MUST LOSE THE WAR AGAINST UKRAINE. GRIFF: AND YOU WROTE SO ELOQUENTLY IN "THE WASHINGTON POST" WHERE YOU SAID THAT RUSSIA WILL BE FREE. TALK ABOUT FREEDOM. LET'S TALK ABOUT YOUR STORY AND I'VE THOUGHT A LOT ABOUT THE TWO YEARS AGO THAT WE WERE TOGETHER IN THE STUDIO IN D.C. TALKING ABOUT WHAT BECAME THE UKRAINE-RUSSIA WAR AND NOW, THE EMOTION YOUR FAMILY MUST BE FEELING AND JUST HOW SURREAL YOUR STORY IS GOING FROM TWO YEARS IN A SIBERIAN PENAL COLONY TO A FEW DAYS AGO IN THE OVAL OFFICE. YOU MET WITH PRESIDENT BIDEN, YOUR FAMILY THERE, YOUR WIFE WHO HAD BEEN THERE, ALSO, WHEN SHE GOT NEWS THAT YOU WERE BEING FREED. WHAT'S GOING THROUGH YOUR MIND NOW THAT YOU'VE HAD A LITTLE TIME TO REFLECT ON IT. >> THANK YOU, GRIFF. FOR THE PAST THREE WEEKS IT FEELS LIKE I'VE BEEN WATCHING A FILM AND IT'S A GOOD FILM, BUT SURREAL. THREE WEEKS AGO I WAS IN SOLITARY CONFINEMENT IN A STRICT PRISON IN SIBERIA, CONFIDENT AND CERTAIN I WOULD END MY DAYS THERE. TWO DAYS AGO I WAS IN THE OVAL OFFICE THANKING PERSONALLY THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES FOR THE ROLE THAT THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT HAS PLAYED IN THIS HISTORIC PRISONER EXCHANGE. YOU KNOW, EVENTS LIKE THIS, EVENTS LIKE THIS EXCHANGE THAT HAPPENED ON AUGUST THE 1ST ON THE RUNWAY OF ANCHORA INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT, IT'S THE LARGEST EAST-WEST PRISONER SWAP SINCE THE DAYS OF THE COLD WAR, EVENTS LIKE THIS PROVE WRONG THE SKEPTICS AND THE CYNICS AND CONSTANT DRUM BEATS, ALL POLITICS IS ABOUT EXPEDIENCY AND NO LONGER ROOM FOR VOLUMES AND PRINCIPLES, EVENTS LIKE THIS PROVE THEM WRONG. TO ME, A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A DEMOCRACY AND DICTATORSHIP, THERE CAN BE NO HIGHER VALUE IN DEMOCRACY THAN HUMAN LIFE. WITH THAT EXCHANGE THAT HAPPENED AUGUST THE 1ST, THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT AND THE GERMAN GOVERNMENT AND EVERYBODY INVOLVED IN THIS ON THE WESTERN SIDE, ON THE SIDE OF THE FREE WORLD SAVED 16 HUMAN LIVES IN ONE DAY AND I WAS GRATEFUL TO BE ABLE TO THANK THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES PERSONALLY. YOU KNOW, IN THE ENTIRE HISTORY OF THE UNITED STATES, THERE HAVE ONLY BEEN FOUR PRESIDENTS, FOUR AMERICAN PRISONS, TWO FORD AND REAGAN, AND NOW GETTING POLITICAL PRISONERS OUT OF THE HELL OF THE SOVIET OR RUSSIAN GULAG. LET'S NOT FORGET WHILE 16 V US ARE FREE AND SNATCHED FROM THAT HELL THERE ARE HUNDREDS AND HUNDREDS RUSSIAN PRISONERS, UKRAINIAN PRISONERS OF WARS AND CIVILIAN HOSTAGES AND BELARUS, THERE'S LEFT AND RUSSIA, AND BELARUS AND WE MUST NOT RELENT UNTIL ALL ARE FREE WITH THEIR FAMILIES. GRIFF: AND THE FIGHT CONTINUES. IN THE TIME WE HAVE LEFT, TO YOUR POINT THOSE LEFT BEHIND AND MAYBE HAD A CHANCE TO BE PART OF THIS DEAL, BUT DIDN'T GET OUT. ALEXEI NAVALNY, TOMORROW MARKS SIX MONTHS AFTER HIS DEATH, THE ANNIVERSARY OF HIS DEATH. THERE'S A NUMBER OF EVENTS PLANNED TO MARK THAT. HOW WILL YOU MARK IT AND WHAT'S THE MESSAGE? >> THE MESSAGE WAS GIVEN BY ALEXEI NAVALNY HIMSELF IN THE DOCUMENTARY FILM IN WHICH YOU KNOW, HE GAVE AN INTERVIEW JUST BEFORE RETURNING FROM GERMANY TO RUSSIA BACK IN JANUARY OF 2021. HE SAID NEVER GIVE UP. IF THIS HAPPENS, I AM KILLED, NEVER GIVE UP. AND PUTIN HAS NOW KILLED TWO OPPONENTS. TWO MAJOR RUSSIAN OPPOSITION LEADERS, BORIS, WHO WAS MURDERED IN FRONT OF THE KREMLIN LITERALLY 2015 AND NOW ALEXEI NAVALNY THIS YEAR IN THE PENAL COLONY IN THE RUSSIAN FAR NORTH AND LET'S NOT FORGET THAT THE REGIME WE HAVE IN THE KREMLIN TODAY IS NOT JUST AUTHORITARIAN REGIME, A DICTATORSHIP, IT'S A REGIME LED BY A MURDERER, BUT AS BORIS ALWAYS BELIEVED, ALEXEI NAVALNY BELIEVED AND AS I ALWAYS BELIEVED AND WILL CONTINUE TO BELIEVE, RUSSIA WILL BE FREE. RUSSIA WILL BE DEMOCRATIC. THE ARC OF HISTORY MAY NOT BEND AS FAST AS WE LIKE, BUT IT DOES BEND TOWARDS FREEDOM. NO QUESTION ABOUT IT. I AM ABSOLUTELY CONFIDENT THAT THE DAY WILL COME WHEN RUSSIA BECOMES A NORMAL, PEACEFUL, CIVILIZED DEMOCRATIC COUNTRY AND I THINK IT IS INCUMBENT ON ALL OF US BOTH US IN RUSSIAN CIVIL SOCIETY AND RUSSIAN OPPOSITION, BUT ALSO THE LEADERS OF THE FREE WORLD AND DEMOCRATIC COUNTRY TO WORK TOGETHER TO BRING THAT DAY A LITTLE CLOSER BECAUSE THAT'S GOING TO BE A VERY GOOD DAY FOR EVERYONE. GRIFF: INDEED. YOU'LL BE ON THE FRONT LINES FIGHTING THAT FIGHT.