Former Estonian President on why Hungary should leave the EU – Toomas Hendrik Ilves

Introduction hello and welcome to spectator TV I'm Lucas d gutus The Spectators editorial manager last month Hungary the current holder of the eu's rotating presidency announced an expansion of its national identity card which now includes Russian and Bellar Russian citizens Hungary as any other EU country is entitled to decide their own visa requirements but there are concerns that Russia may use this as an opportunity to further destabilize Europe joining me to discuss this is former Estonian president president Thomas hendrik ilves Mr Thomas it is great to have you with us what is Hungarys decision on visas your view on hungary's decision regarding the Visas do you think the concerns over National Security in Europe are Justified absolutely I mean we this has been a consistent problem of uh of people who shouldn't be traveling in Europe doing so uh most recently before this uh event uh the Czech Republic uh LED by the Czech Republic and then uh supported by most of the Central and Eastern European countries uh wanted to limit the travel of Russian diplomats in Europe only to the countries that they are accredited to uh we just have too many cases of um Russian diplomats SL spies uh traveling wandering throughout uh Europe doing whatever they do uh because of the freedom afforded by The shenen Zone which of course uh since uh Central and Eastern Europe joined in 2011 uh has allowed uh people from our part of the world to travel all over Europe without passport controls and which uh Europe had en had the rest of Europe had already enjoyed for a number of years now the problem is that um we have on the one hand too many cases of uh Russian spies probably other spies traveling throughout Europe getting access to say uh one country that is gener would be liberal in giving out visas to uh then go to countries that are not so liberal I mean most importantly the countries that are most restrictive on giving out visas or even allowing entry have been the country those countries that border um border Russia that is uh Norway Finland Estonia lvia Lithuania and Poland um precisely because of the abuse that we saw uh uh in those countries with um with the Middle Eastern um various illegal migrants being transported either to bellarus or to Russia and then uh and then illegally entering the EU now um that measure that we uh that with Czech leadership proposed was V by Germany um for whatever reasons I won't get into the those here but Germany all along has been rather Russia friendly on issues like this that is a matter regarding diplomats that is diplom if you're there's a diplomat credited to uh to say Berlin uh under current rules he can travel to wherever he wants uh now with the with this step by Hungary that means anyone can who comes from Russia or bellus and if we combine that with the dramatic uptick in all kinds of violence sabotage cut cables suspicious Security risk fires dissidents being beaten up in Lithuania Estonian ministers cars being smashed by Russians or people who are Russian proxies then this idea is is a genuine security threat to Europe I think it is completely irresponsible uh on the part of Hungary to do this we have very strict limits on how the shenen Zone operates we had to jump through hoops to prove to the shenen authority that we are in full control of our borders that are that we can adequately control who comes into our countries and this has just been completely upturned by Hungary with this decision uh so for security reasons strict with strictly security reasons uh we need to either have this policy rolled back immediately or we go and well leave Hungary out of shenen there this is not simply a matter of driving across the borders if you are going to if you uh the other part of the shenen zone is that in fact uh we don't check who flies on airplanes or check them when they arrive so if you want to uh if you're someone with nefarious uh goals uh you want to say uh you come to Hungary with one of these silly documents uh you go get on a plane and then you fly to say vus and then you get out in vus and do something that's you're not going to be controlled so none of us our countries in the shenen zone cannot control who's coming in to the country because of this policy uh and I raised this already when it came out now I noticed that 67 members of the European Parliament have written a letter to uh Ura Wonder liion um we've seen that the Finnish commissioner has written a letter asking for a response but it's by October I mean this is this is untenable we can't be doing this that oh please answer by October what you are doing this is I mean these these uh identity cards have already been issued since July and we don't know who's coming across our borders because of this and given the current climate this is a security risk sorry to interrupt the shame but if you enjoy what we do here at spectator TV then why not subscribe to the magazine as well if you subscribe today you get 12 weeks with just £12 plus a free 20 John Lewis and waitress gift card you can sign up at spectator. co.uk sltv offer Mr eless Article 7 suspension do you think if this Hungarian policy is found to actually be a security threat to Europe by the EU but is not rolled back what is the possibility of potentially article 7 of the EU treaty being invoked where membership rights are suspended for Hungary well that's a harder step in fact I me I think there are countries uh that would not want to invoke article 7 but um but being I being kept out of the shenen zone is not such a dramatic step I mean in fact we have seen a number of times uh shenen suspended by individual countries especially during the covid uh pandemic Finland shut off shenen to the Baltic countries Denmark uh had a temporary shutdown in U uh in to the shenen provisions with Germany so that's actually a great lower uh than uh going uh going on to article 7 there are other behaviors on the part of Hungary however which um might lead to that I mean uh when we see Hungary for example blocking the otherwise unanimous condemnation of the farce faral elections in h Venezuela I mean all of these mean basically you can say that Hungary and its leadership is acting kind of as the nuisance country in the EU uh acting to Simply thwart EU actions be it assisting Ukraine be it I mean uh yeah on sanctions and I think they were really getting out of line by blocking a the condemnation of what was absolutely a a uh manipulated election in Venezuela I mean that's going so far a field that in no way impinges upon um Hungarian National interest we can make the you can make a specious claim that no well we shouldn't have sanctions and that is bad for EU member Hungary I mean it's it's dubious nonetheless but when you go so out of the way that you block uh the Foreign Affairs Council from issuing a statement condemning the the utter fraud that we saw in Venezuela then we're basically looking at a Putin proxy would you say that all of these Why Hungary should leave the EU things just point to the fact that Hungary perhaps no longer belongs in the EU well I I mean other than getting money from the EU I don't know why they're there or in here I mean why I mean what is it if you're com if your rhetoric is antie you bash the EU at every po at every turn you block otherwise unanimous positions on the part of the European Union of all member states except for Hungary uh then it's it's all they want is money and then without any kind of uh even the moral sense that if if we're taking money we do have some kind of obligation to go to to support the European Union's policies so uh I mean I I think the anger in the European Union is mounting and the question is what who's willing to do what about it Hungarys strategic approach and what would you say in response to people that might point out that Hungary is just being strategic it's you know in under the safety of NATO and it's enjoying the benefits of remaining within the EU but it's also keeping diplomatic relations with the West's aggressors such as Russia it's all part of strategic politics I think that's nonsense I mean if we're going to have a uh I mean no there has been no benefit that has acred to the European Union from this kind of uh this kind of behavior none zero this is strategic I mean this is uh strictly transactional National interest uh which is placed far above the interest of the European Union it does not comport with solidarity as we understand it um it just doesn't I mean basically Hungary doesn't belong in the European Union from based on its behavior and but it's also very interesting because why do you think Hungary has this approach to countries like Russia when they've shared a similar history for example like the Baltic states or Poland you know falling and being occupied by uh the Soviet checks I mean it's I mean I wouldn't want to impute motives toward anyone but I mean sort of the aam's Razer approach would say they're getting something what that is I don't know thank you so much for joining us on spec TV Mr elas it was a pleasure to have you e