Olympian Charlotte Dujardin and the truth about equestrian sports | SpectatorTV

hello and welcome to spectator TV I'm Cindy the spectator's assistant editor earlier this week the Olympian and World Champion in dressage Charlotte dadan announced that she was going to be pulling out of Team GB just days ahead of the Paris Olympics this was after a shocking video emerged of her treating a horse rather appallingly this is the clip and you may find it distressing this is so [Music] hard now Charlotte du jadan has been suspended from the sport and definitely not competing in the Olympics anymore uh for about 6 months while the investigation is going on into her behavior and joining me to discuss this issue now is Dominique Dyer animal welfare campaigner and writer as well as Alice plunet who is an equestrian journalist and former jockey and event wrer Dominic and Alice thank you so much for joining spectator TV now Alice to start with can I get your reaction upon first hearing the news of Charlotte dardan's withdrawal from te teamgb just days ahead of the Olympics and upon first seeing the video which has got her into so much trouble well I was just shocked and and appalled as everybody else in the equestrian community and outside of the equestrian Community um probably within the equestrian Community I was shocked for the content and um what I was witnessing but also who the perpetrator was because she's somebody that you know has been held in high regard for a number of years since she burst on the scene in 2011 um she's someone who um it was my understanding from seeing her work at home and seeing the setup that she has at home that her system was one where the horse was front and center is front and center and that um so it made it all the more shocking because it went against everything that I thought I knew about Charlotte J Dominic yet is not the first uh story of animal abuse we've had in equestrian Sports not even the first this year you know we've had previous examples of H has being beaten with tree branches or being punched how surprised were you well I think it is shocking footage uh for the for the reasons Alice was stated you know this was someone that's held in very high esteem you know a very very successful Olympic Athlete with a wonderful track record of success and you would have thought that they would never find themselves in this situation I understand the videoos about 2 and 1/2 years old I understand the individual that released it talking through their lawyers you know thought long and hard as to whether they should release this and obviously they challenged themselves as to whether what was going on on the day was right or wrong um from a lay person's perspective it looks shocking there's no question about it there is definitely looks like real cruelty there in relation to the horse I think the concern I have is is to whether this just opens up that much broader debate we're having about equestrian sports that are very successful generate a lot of money sponsorship betting television rights and everything everything that go with it but how much of a priority is Animal Welfare when it comes to protecting horses involved in all of these activities and I think we live in a 24-hour social media world and if these sports are to continue and have a license to continue they must maintain the confidence of the vast majority of the British public and the public around the world wherever these events are taking place particularly when it comes to events like the Olympics of course and I think when we see incidents like this it really does Dent public confidence and I think it needs to be a period of reflection for the whole of the equestrian industry about what we can do to ensure actually that the first priority in any event is to protect the welfare of the horse in my experience Dominic you know it we've we've got um I I've been involved with training horses all my life I'm an equestrian journalist but The Guiding Light in my whole career has been my passion for the horse if you'd said to my parents at the beginning of my school that I was going to make horses my life they would have Furious because they would have said well there's no way but the passion for the horse for me has been the driving factor and that's taken me to four Olympic Games it's taken me to all sorts of extraordinary places and on a journey but because I love the horse and all the different zones that I've been in and areas that I've been in I've been totally confident that that passion for the horse has been front and center and the motivation of everyone this morning I was at a charity event which was why I was late um with children um riding ponies and the thing that the horse and humans and that relationship that goes back 2,000 years has been throughout history has been one of partnership not domination when you look at agriculture War um transport and Sport humans and horses have worked in symbiosis and watching these children today was really special it really struck me and I wanted to bring it out is that you know these children are coming out in the morning they've got to think outside themselves they've got to think about the care of the horse they've got to challenge themselves in terms of Bravery they've got to partner with another animal and that's a stepping stone all the way through to the extraordinary things we see in the Olympics what Charlotte's done as you said Has Broken the trust of people looking on the equestrian world that we have the social license to do that but that Partnership of humans and horses is an extraordinary one and it's one that brings mutual benefits um and I think you know in terms of my kids are terms of the Charities that I'm working with watching it that that is a fundamental thing that's entrenched in our human um being really is is our relationship with animals but at the core of that has to be respect structure and um you know an understanding that training is about stages you wouldn't put your child who's in Primary School into to do gcses you wouldn't beat your child to get it to learn its a levels and in the same way with your horses you have a structured training program and we have to have confidence and social license that those training programs are systematic and that the welfare of the horse is front and center and I really do believe that's the case which is why the fbii British dressage and the British equestrian Federation have come down so hard on Charlotte because that is at the core of everything there is zero tolerance for this type of behavior in equestrian sport but also in terms of confidence in social license yeah I'd agree with everything you said I think my concern would be that there is extreme pressure to get you know good performances from horses not just in dressage but if we look at horse racing and hurdles and events all the you know the sporting activities that you're aware of and have been involved with you there is a concern I think a genuine concern that you know that there's great pressure to get results and you know I I'm worried as many people are that on the horse racing circuit we still have hurdles that are too high we still have too many horses sometimes racing around round tracks like a Tre um the whip is used too liberally sometimes and um there's concerns that lots of people you know breed horses maybe far too many than can actually compete effectively on the track and many of those horses you know retire early and end up in the food chain and things so we know there's a darker side to the industry I'm not saying everything you you've spoken about Alice is absolutely right because I can see your passion and belief and it's terribly important but I worry I worry at times that maybe what we've seen with this video with Charlotte is just that she was under immense pressure you know to get results to maintain her ability to win medals and on that basis the horse paid the price I I don't know if that's a fair assumption but that's a concern that many people have I think in this particular case it wasn't about her performance it she what she was she was involved in training somebody else um I I so she was in a situation where she was training somebody else and she was involved with somebody else's horse and I do not know what was going through her head to think that that was an appropriate way to improve that horse's performance because I've never seen something like that in terms of the whip you know and racing you we've had 75,000 rides and we had uh 592 whiper fences so that's not 0.7% know there re there is systematic um protocol in place to monitor exactly what you're talking about and in the same way as with RAC you know when you're riding a horse to a fence the smaller fence doesn't necessarily make it a safer fence it's how the horse is trained how the horse is produced how the horse is presented to the fence often a smaller fence actually doesn't make it any safer because the horse and doesn't read it as well and actually they're better if they jump a bigger fence you know soft ground often is a lot better than than quicker ground although visually perception may seem that that's that's that that's different so I think as Society changes and where we would have had three million horses in this country during the war because we would have had horses going to war horses for transport we now have a million horses in this country for leisure there's a there's there's definitely a change in terms of how much contact we have with horses and therefore how much how we CH how we can help people understand and also how we can gain confidence from people who aren't involved in horses as you said social license and confidence is really important how do I present the story that I know the journey that I've been on the V the visuals that I have seen and how do we really make sure that that the public has confidence that that is the case sorry to interrupt the show but if you enjoy what we do here at spectator TV then why not subscribe to the magazine as well if you subscribe today you get 12 weeks for just £2 plus a free 20 John Lewis and waitress gift card you can sign up at spectator. co.uk for /tv offer Alice can I get you to elaborate on the use of the whip because it's been reported since this Charlotte dadan story has broken out that you know the whip is u a legal enhancement Aid is how one jist in the times put it um and then in dress as well there is a rule called the blood rule where where horses with fresh blood on them are eliminated from competing I mean the fact that even that even has to be a rule suggests some level of you know pain associated for the animal and Charlotte D jadan was you know in did infringe that blood rule in 2019 at European championships how do you justify those rules the blood that blood rule with Charlotte D jardan was to do with the bit it wasn't to do with the whip so the blood roll is so sometimes you there might be a situation where a horse might bite his tongue or the bit might pinch and that will cause a blood a little bit of blood in the mouth the the infringement that Charlotte dardan experienced was literally a tiny bit of blood but there's zero tolerance for that which is right because the bit must not be fitting properly there there would be a situation potentially um the majority of that will come around the mouth not around anywhere else you not you to draw blood on a horse with a whip is not something that I mean you literally you can't you can't do that I mean it would be nion impossible to do that um so that is not a situation the blood rule doesn't relate to the whip that's two separate issues so you've got issues around bitting and then you've got separate issues around the whip um so the Whip and it's a it's something I've been considering and talking about a lot um whenever I get on a horse on a daily basis I will get on a horse carrying a stick um it's partly to do with balance it's partly to do with the fact that I'm well I'm 11 stone and my horse is 550 kilos I would never turn my stick over and and hit a horse but I might tap him down the shoulder it might help me in terms of moving forward the whip that Charlotte was using was a lunging Whip and that's for an exercise that you do where you take the horse's saddle off and you have a rope from you to the horse's mouth and then you have a whip that's long because it goes so you're AC in a triangle so you're guiding the horse forward but the the width should never come in contact with the horse so the way she was using it was completely in appropriate and not how it was guided to used to be used and that's not not expressing myself very well but that is not how it was meant to be used um so you can use a stick in a responsible way and in it as as an aid whilst you're riding a horse um the whips that they're using on in racing that's constantly under review constantly under debate they're padded whips that make a noise um H and we can't grade in terms of pain but if you got hit by one we did a thing on it before it's a very different um it's a very different type of stick so that is constantly under review it's a it's something that Riders have carried throughout history and it's being reviewed all the time and the use of it is constantly monitored well you know I think we come back to to the changing nature of public attitudes on Animal Welfare and animal protection it's what I spend a lot of my time doing across a whole wide range of issues on wild and domestic animals and there's never a day where we don't get stories like this pop up in the UK around the world and often they can be very emotive I think what's changing Alice is you've got organizations like animal Rising for example whatever you might think of them you've got really passionate young people coming together in a very powerful way using social digital media and direct action to bring to attention their concerns about animal exploitation and I think the whole equestrian industry is writing the firing line of that so I think the worst thing the equestrian industry can do is try and sort of run away and and shield itself or try and just attack the people that raise concerns I think you've got to embrace change you've got to accept that actually some of what you've done in the past is not going to be acceptable in the future that you might need to look at all of the training standards and the numbers of animals bred and the RAC trcks and the number of animals on the racetrack and the hurdles and everything so that you can still maintain an effective successful equestrian industry but it must it must put the horse welfare at the top of its priority list and I think people like you truly believe that I'm not questioning that for a minute but there are people within this sector like any sector that cook Corners that do things they should not do that think they can get away with doing things they should not do that's becoming increasingly difficult as we see these videos and pictures emerge and then we come back to the impact it has on the individuals you know I don't know what made Charlotte do this all those years ago I don't know what's been going through her mind thinking will this ever emerge this video because I'm sure she's intelligent enough to think my God if it does what's it going to do to my career it's like a ticking time bot and it's gone off and it and it must be really really difficult for her so I think you know aside from the concerns about the welfare of the horse in that instance and her future career we've got to think about her as an individual because this could you know have tragic conse consequences for anyone that's caught in this glare of publicity what I hope will happen here is that she can find some time and space and support from people within the equestrian industry I hope they don't all run away from her you know because if you lose sponsors and you lose Sports Council funding and all of it you suddenly can be very very alone you know she needs support but what I do hope is if she gets that support she can come back and say listen I made a mistake but actually I want to put that right but also to be part of that change of the the question industry going forward because you know I don't want to see anyone else through what I've gone through if that's the word to use with her CU there are lots of young athletes coming up that are probably looking oh my God is that going to happen to me and what am I going to do and it might actually put people off coming into equestrian Sports and I know that if you lost a lot of the equestrian Sports industry you'd lose a lot of the all the the funding and support and Welfare around horses you know the welfare situation could get a lot worse that we have many problems as we know with with people not looking after horses and and in a cost of living crisis we have many people who can no longer afford to pay to look after their horses so we we need all of this to be looked at so I think this is maybe a moment to embrace change in a positive way to look after her interests but also maybe to learn from this incident as well I think as well you know as you said it has to be a lesson to anyone who who considers stepping over the line but I think I go back to what you said we have very um good governing bodies of equestrian sport we have very good governing bodies across horses in um Society whether it's the British hor Society whether it's British equestrian Federation whether it's the FEI if you take as you said structured equestrian sport out of that the governance which at the moment calls culpability and calls people to account who make these mistakes and she is being called to account because we are we as an equestrian community and I'm calling that are horrified by what we've seen this this is this I can't say it's at incident but in terms of from what I've ever seen I have never seen an elite athlete and I've been in that British team setup a lot and I've watch them get ready now for this Olympic Games and I'm really proud of the incredible horsemanship the incredible Partnerships that we've seen um working through that qualification process to go and showcase their skills and their Partnerships on the biggest stage of the mall at the Olympic Games this the reason she's been come down on so heavily is because there is zero tolerance because there is a governing body because there is governance you take all of that away and then who knows what happens but there is accountability when we're looking at um British racing so many changes are being made all the time look at the changes made to the Grand National the core of the fences the review continually of moving the start of changing the number of Runners of looking at how the fences are built the profile of the fences the ground please don't underestimate that that that this is something that is this isn't because Charlotte this hasn't triggered good horse welfare that that isn't it's it's it's literally part of it without even knowing it and now it's having to be a much more conscious thing because it's something that we have to present in a way that as you said gives us the confidence and the responsibility of social license Alice I also wonder about your opinion on the way that the industry has reacted to the story this week because you know you've mentioned these kind of regulatory bodies but it's not just the story that's played out there it's also played out on media with a lot of people are pining on it um you know I was struck earlier this week by Charlotte's previous Mentor caresta you know coming out and condemning what she has done you know just on a human level it seems as a she's in the middle of an absolute storm right now and that must be really really painful and do you think that the industry has gone too far almost in in in trying to say nothing to do with mov you know and Charlotte's being fed to the Wolves yeah I know I mean as Dominic flagged up you know there's two different things here there's what what will happen to her professionally in terms of the governing bodies the FEI British dressage um and the British equestrian Federation but then there's this secondary thing of judge and jury on social media this is hugely emotive it's a very upsetting video it's a video that triggers huge emotion in people quite understandably and and makes people very very angry um and how how does she navigate that how apart from apologizing saying she's ashamed all the things that she said nothing at the moment is going to be good enough for anyone who is very very upset by these videos um and so I I think it's I think it's time I think I I just hope she's got the right support around her um she's got a young daughter um and I'm not condoning what she's done because it is completely wrong but does that then Define her as a human being and everything else I I don't know I mean we know that once once momentum gets going on social media it's a very very scary place and there are a lot of understandably upset and angry people but it's when it gets very personal um it's it's a very scary truck that's on the roll Dominic and Alice thank you so much for joining spectator TV