EPISODE 203 - JAMES ROBINSON

one thing led to another and suddenly they're they're in a sort of street fight these so you got comic book artists versus Street jcks they were screaming and was fighting and all of a sudden it start to go quieter and quieter and quieter and and Jeff Johnson had just slowly like choke holded and pinched and done all this kungu stuff and suddenly just diffused the entire situation in this calm zenik Mana like David kadine and kung fu [Music] hey you thanks for listening not a whole hell of a lot to uh report on the writing end just kind of chugging away on a uh rewrite of uh the book opener which was unexpected but highly welcome you know if I'm going to capture the the attention in the minds of the readers then these things have to happen I'm kind of just excited to get into talking about this week's episode today's guest is James Robinson and I've Loved James work boy like for a long long time he uh yeah he's he's held a good a good section on my bookshelf for many many years I was excited to get the opportunity to speak with him James along with Jeff Johnson have a new comic book coming out called Rogues Kingdom and they are releasing it on Kickstarter on the 13th it'll be a one-month campaign and James was willing to come on and endure me for a period of time and uh it was a great talk I really didn't expect where it was going to go James is one of these people who really knows his craft and can speak specifically to the reasonings for all that he does I've read the first issue and I loved it I'll be a complete shill here it's great there's an upcoming uh episode with Jeff later on in the campaign and um Brennan Wagner is the colorist and Brenan will come on the show too for this campaign so we're going to get a lot of uh discussion about rogue's Kingdom so uh get ready if you like fantasy that's what these are all about I'm really looking forward to how with everyone digs it because I'm a huge fantasy fan so to read something that is intriguing but unique is not an easy thing especially in the Comic Book Realm often things feel similar to something else I know this is a weird comparison but like s is science fiction but it feels so different and this is kind of feels different fantasy to me and I like that so and we also get into like old anime like television anime shows and how much impact they had when we were kids I know we we do we go all over the place um yeah I I hope you dig this um this is me with James Robinson I was talking to a writer friend today about the idea of like commitment it's like that commitment to make yourself almost a fool but like you know that it's going to end up really well like you know like Hey listen just pay attention I'm gonna land this you know I mean you don't always land it but it's just that commitment to kind of putting yourself right that risk level of that creative Endeavor and I think that's where the um kind of the great magic always happens yes I I I do think that the big two often um uh encourage that immaturity though so that they have control over the project which driv me crazy yeah writer which why I'm happy to be doing something with Jeff that isn't you know for the big two right it's man it's so hard like when I when I got the racket you know 1991 I was so excited to get to like sort of play with other guys toys you know I'm like oh boy this is going to be so great to play and you know and make stories for the big two and you know I guess well they they were it um and you know and I didn't like I didn't really see because I saw it all from the P penciling point of view I didn't see it from the writing point of view and it didn't get the like I'm gonna make something I just thought I was going to be a part of making something and it was really kind of strange because I did experience those moments when I did say hey I want to make something and then you run into the well here's what we want to do and you go okay yes rarely does it uh exceed your own imagination or or aspirations absolutely yeah it's like it's like really inexpensive movies there's the studio but having written a having written a really good screenplay once that was made into a not particularly great film being the league of exra gentleman and got got pulled and Rewritten and pulled and Rewritten and messed up this way and there um I can say that comics and films can be equally as heartbreaking yeah yeah yeah greaters that's yeah but I think all listen you know I have a so I do I I'm an art director you know since I left comic books and that you know I've a very great luxury working with some phenomenal Brands like worldwide Brands and I mean I guess I can say it doesn't matter like so I had this big project with the North Face that was happening and then like two weeks of just kind of weird Communications happened and then they just pulled it like it just stopped and we were just dumbfounded by this this process and I think anything that you put your heart in when somebody else has control of what you know is the ultimate you know you know result it can be hard-breaking it doesn't matter I wrote a script for uh Hot Wheels years a few not a few years ago and one of the problems was that there there was a guy at Mattel who's in charge of their sort of like creative stuff that wasn't the toys yeah and he had come up with the idea of doing Barbie's Nutcracker and I think it it had cost them I I I I I'm literally pulling a budget amount out of my out out of my butt but it was somewhere between $10,000 and $100,000 to do that and they put it right by the registers of Toys R Us so every and they it was pric to sell at like $9.99 or or $4.99 so every little girl saw it with their mom and said I want Barbie Nutcracker and they got it and so as a result they made like millions of that and so this guy I thought he was a genius he thought he was Citizen Kane of toy to film adaptations right and I remember going to these meetings we would go to Mattel be me it would be the director was going to be MC G who did Charlie's Angel stuff there was a his producing partner of the time was a a girl called woman called Stephanie Savage very talented young lady who has since gone on I think I think she came up with gos girl or one of those big one of those like teen intrigu big big TV shows that went on for seasons and seasons and she's done very well you can I you can IMDb her and see all that she's done but we would go to Mattel and this guy was there with um what's that book the the the journey you know the writer's Journey quoting from it in front of us and and uh and the story was very much sort of a little bit like a western stranger comes into town and helps to clean up a bad situation but it was this sort of alternate world where there were different kinds of of car culture everywhere you know the low riders the the The Limousines The this monster trucks and um I remember he was deciding to um he was deciding to uh at one point like the the the the CH there was a child there was a I forget it was a basically a death that involved a child and he was like yes well of course the father would choose the son not the daughter and I remember thinking to myself wow you've just you know you've made Sophie's choice and there are no gustara around you and and there's a woman in the in the room with you so um anyway uh that was a long story but you know that's you I think an entertaining one about the heartbreaking way that people that don't get it can mess up mess up stories and then I did many drafts and I thought it we thought it was moving forward and then everybody well not everybody they decided they wanted to do a talking car movie instead which they didn't do obviously because Pixar did did you know yeah did it anyway long story well you one thing I learned I learned a painful lesson long time ago that if you do not engage the people who have the ability to say yes and no early enough in the project yeah it's a pretty much given that it's going to end up being a no one that lands on their desk with with no for they have no head heads up they just go what is this and that's the death now it's brutal it's brutal how do you like so you know I know like I have I have to like I have to do a lot of stuff to kind of keep my battery charged my creative battery charged because like you know you've been doing this for 30 plus years I mean you look great for being so young and um you know yeah well flattery will get you everywhere I'm not sure I uh agree with you I was looking at you know in these things when you're talking half the time looking at you and the other time you're looking at me going do I really look like that yeah I know I know real it's a real image it's not the mirror image so you're you're getting a little bit of a shock exactly right we're not yeah because it's because it is different right it's different than what we see when we look in the mirror which I don't like doing that either um but anyway yes I've been at it a long time yeah and like and same for myself and I always have to kind of find ways to kind of keep myself creatively engaged and like a lot of things have to do with you know hobby actives you know activities like what can my mind do that's going to like relax it to where I can open up and you you know you caught me strumming a guitar earlier but like that's one of them and then there are Myriad other things of distractions which you kind of have to balance and being you know uh distractions from the actual work and an ability to work better in the long run yes yeah so what do you do uh what do I do well I work out all right um I it's funny people that have followed me from my days with Starman many many years ago when I would answer pages and they were aware that I collected view Masters and one day I in a fit of peak or I don't know quite why I did it I sort of got I got rid of most of them and I kept the clay figure ones this is a little more than I need to to to say but they there were these beautiful clay figure um view Masters that you can get that tell fairy tales and cartoons and all sorts and I kept those and a couple of others but I got rid of the rest and then over the last X however many years I've become interested in 3D photography so I I do a little bit of that 3D photography I have a I have a 3D camera but I also have a a camera that takes view Master sized images right and um and I have a huge collection of view Masters which I and also you know I I read copiously um both both uh a lot of nowadays as I've gotten older I I've I appreciate the early stuff more so I've been reading a I read a lot of um newspaper uh collections especially now they've they've really if you look at you know each month in the previews catalog there's always some fantastic n obscure 1940s uh newspaper strip that they've collected for the first time so that I do that what else do I do um and and I do there there there I was talking to some people Hollywood people and they couldn't believe anybody did this but um I fix up the house so I I do I have a I have a woodwork a wood woodwork Workshop outside and I you know with myosaurus and different all the all the you know drills and blah blah blah and I do do that so that I do a lot of things things like that yeah and and also music so so I have a huge LP collection and because I live in Vegas where no bands come to Vegas to play they twoes there right now you've got the band uh well there's many that that were angry that that album was put on their their um their uh music their iPod it's still listen it's it's so strange like it's still onone I do not think I I I st I stand with h Henry Rollins on this one that you two do not play rock and roll play whatever they play something different sure not my cup of tea it's all right it's all right but but but that but that that not even mid level but like most bands like I love the Arctic Monkeys probably my favorite band they have never played Vegas you so you have to go to San Francisco or somewhere else um I'm going to uh Santa Cruz not Santa I am going to Santa Cruz but first i'm going to with my wife we're going to um Phoenix to see a a a young performer called Jaylen Nanda who's who signed to dtone great voice yeah sounds like Michael Jackson you know wow Off the Wall ear of Michael Jackson yeah and then there's another band that play sort of well they're not really a band they're a trio that uh called um is it I can never get get it right c c say she she say she she yeah yeah um who are who are on Coal Mine or they're on they're on um they're on um their offshoot which my my mind's gone black they have a the stuff that isn't sold Karma Chief they're they're on Karma Chief Tri Tri girls that do this amazing harmonic like 1970 style disco oh um so I'm going to Santa Cruz to see them in mos allei in November so planning these trips which you know cost money and everything else but it's a kind turn them into like a fun little week or fun couple of days away yeah from so that these are all the things I do when I'm not um doing the comic book projects or the TV stuff and I've Al actually written um a well a a novel but since then I have I love the characters so much that I've written like a series of novellas around the same characters oh right on so I've been doing that and and working out the best way to get it to everybody I might do a Kickstarter but I have an idea to do it as like a hard cover book and you know a limited hard cover book first see if anybody wants to buy it you know it might there might be like a hundred a thousand of them sitting in my storage lock it's it's like the thing of like you know what we should make a t-shirt yeah I think a t-shirt would be a great idea and then you have boxes of t-shirts yeah you know the thing is is the t-shirt's a weird thing because people aren't a fan of the T-shirt they're a fan of whatever the T-shirt represents so fortunately people who like reading your stuff want to read books so that'll be that's a least I'm bit of a a forgotten I feel sometimes that like I'm a bit of a forgotten Soul that's my own fault easily distracted and pulled this way and that by different creative things and you know Comics I don't really have much of a presence anymore although although I have a lot of projects coming up so hopefully that will change you remember me damn it pay attention yeah and uh and uh yeah and then um you know so so there's a little bit of of of a of a not struggle is too strong a word there's a little bit of a strategy to what how I'm trying to sort of get some of this stuff to the public where they're interested and they actually want to read it and and enjoy it hopefully enjoy it well it's the I mean isn't it I mean James it's totally amazing how that shift happened you know I mean you know you I guess what did you get in the business started around 88 89 around there somewhere 8990 yeah yeah yeah I mean I got in 1990 so like we got in around around the same time and it's this really strangely like the responsibility so much on our shoulders now I mean I don't do Comics you know with any regularity of any sort but like the responsibility on the Creator shoulders now to get this out there it's it's a huge pivot what sorry I don't really understand what you didn't have to do anything you wrote you wrote you wrote a script and it and it got produced you know in a comic book form and the publisher put it out there and they advertised it or however they got it the word out and it was on the shelves but now there's a lot of responsibility on the creators to go hey I got this thing you know well well well well back yeah back then I mean Marvel and DC I mean there was Pacific and first kamiko you know smaller companies but by and large it was um Marvel and DC so once you crack that you kind of you could just you know do it and and and and also the the industry was different then because there wasn't the internet mhm so there's so much attention G and also Comics were still you know there was the cliche of the nerdy comic book you know reader and the locked away weirdo comic book creators you know it in England it was a little bit when I was first in comics it was it was uh easier because there was this sense that you could read love and& rockets and Al more and all the sort of cool comics Frank Miller's Daredevil and you could date girls and go to rock you know go to gigs and everything sure whereas in America back in those days it was very much more of a it you kind of it was a choice you made was was was taking that path of reading comics and maybe doing Dungeons and Dragons it was kind of you know and and all that stuff is fun and great to do but but to a lot of people it was considered a bit nerdy yeah and um so as a result the the the the focus was was was people that really Lov loved the books and like with criticism I used to love uh get answering the star star man letters page yeah because nowadays and you know I've gone through it man with with different books and criticism and stuff like that but anybody can go on Twitter for five in that coffee shop and go I don't I think James Robinson's [ __ ] or whatever and then they move on to the next thing that they spend two minutes thinking about but back in the day to write a letter to to put in an envelope put a stamp on it tap to the mail all that stuff it took effort you so the people that would criticize your work and you know some of it was very thoughtful and and and and well reasoned and some of it was crazy sure but at least there was an effort and and heart that went into that in a way that there isn't now you know I mean uh W with with me with com with some of my Comics that I've been criticized by by people on Twitter and and um well not really Facebook I guess it was just Twitter what why I got off Twitter many years ago and I've never regretted it um but it was clear they hadn't actually read the book they were commenting on someone else's comment the game of telephone so by the time that they it it they they decided they were going to tell me what they thought it was nonsense CU it didn't really it wasn't really true to to the source material right so that's sort of it's it's a different world that Comics are in now and in terms of selling the books yes there's Marvel and DC but now there is image but boy I've had some problems with with image not not with image themselves Eric Stevenson and image are great but just you know you have to you have to find an artist you have to find an artist that either loves and is committed enough to do the book for basically for free in the hope that it will sell enough that they'll get will get royalties and then that's where the money comes or you get you if if you have a certain caliber of of Creator you can get an advancer image MH but they aren't you know they don't own anything they they they they don't take they don't want to own the movie rights they don't want to do any of that stuff like boom does or or only does so as a result they um they can't really give that much of an advance yeah you know somewhat generous but not really so the writer never makes any any money until later the artist will make some but you got to you know you forget that that advances for the entire entity of the book so you got to pay you know the people that are working on it writer artist inor colorist letterer editor that's a lot of that the the the the cake gets divided up pretty quick yeah yeah so so so so getting that get getting to a point where you're like Ed Brew Baker or or um or Rick Rick render or or or Matt fraction where your books kind of sell themselves um Brian Kau when they sell themselves and you can just keep it going and everything else I mean that is a lot of that's really hard you got to believe in yourself you got to push the book there's a lot of work to it and you I mean the amount of times you see these image books that have such potential and they just kind of like fade away and it's because it's just hard to do it when you either you have no money or you got to do a second job you know either a second creative gig somewhere or you've got to work at some shitty job you know stocking in the in the in the back back a Best Buy or something you know in order to pay the bills so it is a different world now long again long story short well yeah I it's but it's I mean the it's just it's just your story and that's the I mean like you you're talking from your your point of you know your your reference in that and it's just and it's just how it is um and I think you know we have to become a bit more of our own Carnival barkers in in the sense to get this get the word out in some fashion you know hence our conversation or um you know if you have a Twitter following or whatever your social media platform is it's a it's tough because even a great thing like a Kickstarter you still got to let people know that there's a Kickstarter like it does like people aren't just going like oh good morning day let me go check Kickstarter to see if there's something I like well well again that there there are people that have it down and they know what they're doing there's a a guy's a friend of mine called John flesky fesk books and he does these beautiful art books they're wonderful and I met I met him it's actually a f Kind of a Funny Story although we do kind of um dis dis dis beg to uh agree to disagree on how we first met but my memory of it is that he had he had done his first book which was um oh my gosh the artist that does all that beautiful Line work of course I've forgotten but doesn't matter um it it was his first book and uh I had bought it at Bud plant paperback MH and I and I met this guy just sort of standing there watching people looking at that book and and eventually we were talking and and and began to talk and I said well it's beautiful I just W wish that it was in hard cover and he said I've done it in hard cover too it's just not here so I remember going over to his his his table and getting the hard cover version God I wish I could remember the artist and it's in my library in the other room this is just my working Library um but anyway he he was doing these books and and at first I think it was a little bit of a struggle as it always is starting out this was before Kickstarter and before before the internet was a little bit easier to to to negotiate if you if if you chose to do so right um but eventually you know he he he Frank Cho all these books Frank Cho Arthur Adams BR Bruce Tim I'm looking over here at a few obviously Mark Schultz and the collections those carbon collections that does at all his all his um every San Diego and now he basically because he has a a automatic email that he sends to every all his all the people that want want to receive it yeah they you know the Arthur adms one he just automatically put it out this is what we're doing and he he's kind of got it down in terms of the tiers and how you list it and everything else and I think it was half I think it got half a million a quarter of a million dollars yeah which is fantastic yeah but it's taken time for him to learn to do that so so you can do it you just got to master it I I have not we me me and Jeff Jeff Johnson with with this Kickstarter we're going to do are very much in in in a uh learning p a learning P it's and it's I mean I've done one Kickstarter I I've worked with a company that does them for their it's their business model so they make um gaming terrain for D and and other other sort of ministry based games and they do great and they make a couple million dollars you know anywhere from between a million to$ six million dollars that's what I've seen over the years with their oh nice but they have I mean it's a it's a machine like they are full on videos and all sorts of craziness but I you know it all comes down it's so weird like we live in this modern you know computer age with you know our pockets and our wrist says you just took your watch off you know with with computer and it's like but man it all comes down to the mailing list it always comes down to the ability to get into somebody's inbox and to say hey here's the thing and people go oh I'm I'm EXC because like we don't have you know a Comics journal and all the comic book Publications wizard that did that hard work for everyone of getting yeah yeah so someone else who's got it down in the comic world world I mean he's he's one of the luckiest men I think in comics is Ed breaker oh yeah and he's obviously incredibly talented I've got so much of his work if you look there you can see I've got a little Ed breaker section I can I can I I can literally just reach up and grab breaker books they're like there we go yeah they're everywhere but so so the luck comes that he began working with sha um Phillips Shan Phillips and they have such a fantastic relationship they've been they are like joined at the hip they've been like that for 15 20 years so he doesn't have to worry about an artist and he has he has a audience that likes his work so that that's good so things automatically kind of sell themselves but even with him he does his mailing email which I get when he does them he did he sent one like this week I think a few days ago but even those they have to be informative they have to be they have to it can't just be this is what I'm doing there has to be oh I saw this great Noir movie or I I'm reading some other comic by someone else you know he has to make make it interesting enough that you want to read it so even even he has to go through some of the with W with with all that he's already accomplished and all the pre-sale that he automatically gets just from being who he is and the book SE that he does with Sean he still has to work at it it's i i i coin I'm coining the term right now you're welcome to use it all you want it's transferable engagement transferable engagement okay I will I will try I will endeavor to remember that yeah cuz I mean it's good thing we're recording this um you know the because the idea of taking something and saying here's what I am up to and this is what is making me excited and people go like well if the guy who makes things that I'm excited about likes this that's pretty exciting and oh by the way here's the new thing that's coming out and people they're already excited so I I actually have just started although I'm I've fallen already fallen a little bit off the off the off the but but on my on my um Instagram which is the really the only thing I'm on uhuh I've begun doing reviews like really short reviews of things that I that I like and it's Records books films um and it isn't it's just really a sort of the the to get into the habit and the discipline of doing it so that if I start a uh an email like like Ed or or or John flesky I can um I can you know I'll I'll have that sort of muscle memory of how to do it but the the and I've been very careful only to review things I liked right there's no there's no need to be negative this you believe me you can you can find negative reviews on everything there's there's nothing in it there's I mean there's no for me there's nothing in the whole negative review aspect I just so for me I'm like whatever if I don't like something it's okay I'm not going to I'm not going to you know D in that well the thing you got to remember though is one of the reasons that it exists some people are just mean they just wanna they just don't want to see the good in anything a but but also a lot of the Articles and think pieces and all this stuff people it isn't that there's you know it isn't like the old days of the newspapers when an editor was like Hey Casey get me you know 2,000 words on this box match or the boxers life you know or whatever the assignment is MH it's some it's some guy sitting in his room or some woman sitting in the room I need to make a hundred bucks how do I get you know this website or that website to to to take my article so they come up with they pitching ideas yeah and you know it was interesting because you literally there was almost an arc I saw it with Oppenheimer where articles about Oppenheimer brilliant brilliant you know Kieran Murphy brilliant brilliant and then there the Articles here are the things the history here's the things that they get wrong about Oppenheimer and because because no one's interested in more we love oppenheim we've already read that 20 times 30 times so now we want to know what they what they did what Christopher noan did wrong and then finally you're G to get the opener [ __ ] I didn't like it this is why or wor still this it's gone away a little bit I'm offended I saw upim and I was offended so so you get so so that's and that happened I began to see those I remember seeing with Wonder Woman I was like man how can they the first one how can they how can anybody be upset with this movie I I I didn't like the CGI Villain at the end but overall I thought it was excellent yeah but but but no and it was great and great and great and then one day Wonder Woman offended me or Wonder Woman's terrible because it's just you know oh perfect example um uh Martin sh there was that there was an article in one of the things where someone's like Martin Short's crap why do we put up with Martin Short and that was the article right but you know we all love Martin sha there was nothing better than watching like half an hour of edited Martin Shaw on YouTube on Letterman or he's the best you know roasting someone or jimy jimy Glick we love Martin sha and then there's Murs in the building obviously and so but if but if I saw an article saying Martin Short he wonderful I'd be like yeah I know that I don't need to read that article but someone saying he's crap everybody read that everybody was upset by that everybody you know and and someone pointed out which was actually kind of nice in a slightly morbid way that most people he got this wave of adoration from all the professionals were talking about how much he meant to them and what a great guy he was in real life and professionally and creatively and every way and they said that most people have to wait till they died for people they never get to read those that stuff it always happens after they've died so M actually got to read that but the point being is that article resonated because someone chose to take this negative rout so I'm rambling a little bit aren't I no no no I mean I think so I mean okay one thing I I did I it took away a while was I stopped clicking on anything that had a number in the title so if it's x amount of reasons thoughts thoughts whatever's you know why I I I don't want to know like I don't need to read someone else's list of something just for for attention um and I think you know yeah it's the ne it's the negative the empirical negative can that you know shifts the point of view or not the point of view but maybe the the focus of attention and you know because you know I mean we Nightly News for example you know we don't we want this thing it's just a lot of negative stuff and at the end they're like oh and here's a little dollop of happiness that happened today and there's like a panda you know and you're like oh okay that's that's that's what I get and I you know and you know I mean listen I'm not going to get into but I feel like there's there's a lot of that reflection could be you know argued into how things are you know what's passes for writing you know for stories we get a lot of negativity you know even in the comic genre we get a lot of negative stuff like these just these really just sort of an adulterated you know meanness and I'm like why we have to be so mean about something like why can't we tell a story with less meanness or at least some hope yeah well that's the trick isn't it to add you add hope yeah and um I I've always tried to do that but I noticed some some writers just Revel in the the awfulness of of of the world which we know is you know partly true I mean the way things are going now with Russia testing more nuclear weapons and whatnot I mean we could all be gone in in six weeks yeah we we already grew up in that one like it's like it feels it feels it's come back pretty big so so uh you know we know it's we know things are crap so a little bit of Hope does it doesn't hurt you know it makes getting up in the morning just that a little bit easier yeah I mean I mean I guess I'm blessed that I'm a morning person in that respect I wake up with with sort of a natural sort of you know bucket of it in my in my system but you know and I listen I I don't pay attention to this stuff I don't I don't have the news going I don't you know Twitter's not a thing like all that stuff just takes me away from what I need to do which is focus on the things that I can do to actually improve something in the world through the work and you know that's like yeah I mean it's like okay you write a story and then everyone goes well what what does it mean you know you write like you get that that question kind of floats up and you go like it's funny because when you write it you I I mean I often don't have a theme when I'm writing the theme is something that comes out of the writing I have to look at it and go oh oh this is what my subconscious and all these these sort of threads tied together to create something and that's that's when you can I find when I can tease it theme out I I respect everyone who can walk into a project with a theme in their mind and and hold it through you know but to me on a novel length it becomes a really a hard battle do you have themes when you go into it or do you find do you search them afterwards uh I think sometimes yeah I mean I I I don't think with with with creativity you can you can say there's a formula to it yeah you know every sometimes the idea is the ending sometimes it's the beginning sometimes it's the emotion and have to you have to find the story sometimes it's the story and you got to find the emotion I mean it it all it it I I've never had a hard fast thing I do believe there was one time I was going to do a project I was actually very excited about it too I was going to co-write it with a a sort of legendary writer um but then he said to me let's just make it clear character doesn't matter it's all it's all plot and I remember thinking and and from that point on I looked at his work and I was like well he's always gone into it that way and as a result there's nothing you don't you know in films in in in comics you don't you you do remember plots but you remember those moments more yeah and um you know like alamar's Watchmen which is you know a masterpiece sure um and there's a great and there's a story that goes through it you know obviously through to the to to the end but there are moments of emotion in that that you remember more than the than the than the you know moments with rack moments with um night Al and and Silk Spectre where the comedian where you rem you remember it it there's so many bits in there which aren't crucial to the a to sup To Nuts or the plot y the bits that you you take with you remember same with you know Frank Miller you know I was thinking the other day about I mean he's a different writer now than he used to be let's face it um and I'm not saying that in a bad way he's just changed the way he writes but I remember thinking about when did I first like fall in love with Frank Miller and it was when I was a kid well a young teenager the Daredevil where he has to find the kidnapped kid yeah and he's s he's sitting on the roof and hearing stuff and he's closing in I mean that's a beautiful moment and it's part of yeah the dripping water like he was he was picking everything out to hear that sound coughing that's what it is he knows that one of the guys that kidnapped the kid has a cough y he hear that cough in the city yeah and it's like I say it is part of the plot because the kid kid was kidnapped but it's just this it's a beautiful beautiful moment and and um sometimes that's the the thing that you first think that's you know yeah a runaway train is plot so but if you can if you can create the causality of that runaway train through characters you're you're gonna REM like you go oh my God like I oh Jesus you know like because then you feel the weight of the guilt maybe in the person who did it by mistake or whatever the thing is a great example of that you put runaway train in my head which is a good actually a kind of a little forgotten classic it's it's probably John voy at his best and Eric Roberts who's kind of Forgotten people forget what a good actor he was back when he was younger but uh train to buzan have you seen that movie the zombie movie yep F that I mean the plot is they're zombies and they're on a train and they're going to buzan it's so good but there's so much emotion and there's so many characters that's what you care about that's a perfect example of what I mean with it's those moments that you remember those those you know and at the end I mean I don't want to ruin it for people haven't seen it but one of the characters one of the main characters sort of heroic ending is so beautifully done you know yeah yeah I mean it's yeah so I mean I I could I could feel your heart heart just you know break hearing that the phrase that it's all about plot and it's like okay like yeah I didn't end up do doing the project with I couldn't do it and I kind of you know no I man I get it like I mean it's you know because you I mean and the reason I know that you I would have been able to answer that question for you by what you said earlier and when you were talking about your novel and how you fell in love with your characters and WR wrote novelas about you know with them like that is the thing like you know I enjoy I I like writing comic book scripts I really do I love the I love the medium it's my first love in life but after writing a novel it's like for me I'm like oh well this is where I get to actually be with characters and really kind of because like all those moments in cinema or television or in comics that those little those little moments that add up to make you love these characters you get to do that as much as you want it's you know well the one thing I I'm I'm sort of enjoying is so I should say that I'm having a nice little bit of success at the moment with with with some projects I have a couple we'll get into you know talking about our projects later there's a couple of projects will be announced soonish I'm doing them at darkh horse I'm loving loving working with them and I would have done more at image and I still would like to do more but I have had such bad luck with artists flaking and ghosting and just just and it's so it heart it breaks your heart because you put so much into it and then it kind of it dies on the vine because your artist is unprofessional or what have you um so um when you write when I'm with these books the only person I can blame for them not being as good as I can make them as me so there's this there is a sort of Independence and a sense of of Triumph and just enjoyment of also like the you the just enjoying the written word is yeah is as you write Pros I feel that you kind of continue to fall in love with the written word and also I I think if you can as you read the more you write when you read other people's writing you can see people who are writing because they it's their only means of income or it's a gig or something like that as opposed to someone who clearly really love what what they're doing yeah oh for sure and it's a yeah I know I get it I mean because it's like someone was asking me about writing Comics I'm like I mean like I have like I have a story that I years ago that um John paulon and I were going to do together and I just I was sort of not in the mind of doing Comics at the time so you know it was like well maybe one day we'll do it together and I have it and it's a it's a originally a Marvel Marvel idea and I stripped it away where it's a neutral idea I could do it with a different character now and I'm like I know I could probably sell this to Marvel I could probably get an artist of you know close to John Paul's caliber to sign on because the sentimentality of the story that it that it carries and the quality of the story but I'm like do I I just go like do I want to put that in there for that for them you know like for Marvel and that I'm not bashing them like I worked for them for 10 years and it was my you know it's my childhood dream come to life but you know I think I just like for me I'm like I'm really much more into being able to make the thing that I want to make which I didn't give myself that permission in the 990s so I feel like it's about time you know take that permission now yeah I I I haven't I mean I'll ask him when I see him next but I've always wondered whether Robert Kirkman um Firepower with with family doesn't that feel like it was a pitch for Iron Fist that got yeah that got rejected and he turned it into his own thing like Denny Rand is now in the suburbs and maybe it's Misty night is the wife and feels like you know and and as a result Firepower is just so much better it's yet another Iron Fist story right right and you know not bashing the man with the iron fist you know I mean there there's some great Tales have been told but you know I I don't know man like this is this is a I mean and I mean you've had them yourself you've had the ones where you did the thing for yourself and those stories resonate yeah yeah they they they do I was lucky with star Starman that I had Arie Goodwin and then Peter tamasi editing it and it was a different DC different different time a different world but I was able to put a lot of of of real emotion and and personality into that book in a way that I don't think a lot of people would would would get the chance now I find and I am sincerely not knocking people that enjoy Marvel and DC but right at least for me and I think for when you talk to a lot of people who are our age or a bit younger certainly a bit older there's only so many Batman stories that you want to read like you you know like like there's more Joker Joker back this who I don't care I mean the and and and I'm not saying those stories aren't aren't wonderful stories written by talented writers and drawn by by amazing artists but after a while you've just read read you know I want to read fresh original emotional stuff from creators giving me their true ying and and and original Creations so and and you know again I stress I'm I'm not knocking people that every month go out every week go out and enjoy their their Marvel or DC listen I was one of those people for many chunk of my early life yes but you you just one day it just wears you out and you just and and then the more you know about the the in in the internal workings of the industry that can be a little bit disillusioning and and heartbreaking too that doesn't help yeah but you know I do app I mean I do appreciate things like that DC tries to at least of recent do some all tour based kind of PE works you know okay we're going to get you know one or two people coming together and telling a story that's not part of the cannon they can just kind of come up with their own thing so you know I'm thinking of like Cliff Chang doing his Bat his Catwoman thing you know it's like okay like here's your story do your thing and that at least that feels like you're letting someone play with the toys but you're not like telling them it has to be in this kind of thing which kind of feels a little bit more in line you know like like with the golden age like you got you had the chance to kind of do something that was not specifically in line with something you kind of created something on outside of that right yeah well I think I mean again it was a different time then yeah you you had the the thing I noticed now is um if it feels like both Marvel and DC are constantly doing these events like events become events become events so so it so everybody that's writing those books has to kind of work to the beat of of a of a drama that's not theirs right it's a click track yeah a little bit you know and uh and once in a while like I I I haven't read it but I've heard you know great things about there's a Nightwing Tom Taylor's Nightwing book okay I've heard there are those little you know and quite frankly I tried to do that with um Scarlet Witch back when I wrote that I wrote 15 issues of Scarlet Witch back in uh God knows man a while back back back when back when uh what's his name uh who's the guy that owns Marvel that's a big big Trumper wait Pearlman oh yeah ik Perman yeah yeah so everybody knows the story I'm sure but Ike pman was was pissed off at Fox for not letting them use the X-Men or giving them back the X-Men CU at the time they you know they had Fox bought the X-Men or or licensed them from Marvel when Marvel was bankrupt bankrupt yeah so he was so pissed that they wouldn't just roll over and give him what he wanted that he said okay we're gonna mutant sorry Pearl mut yeah pear mut PE mut finally hit me yeah and and so Marvel had this sort of turd dumped on the desk which was we have to make the in humans into like the new our New Mutants right and and and it you know everybody was doing their best Charles Su was kind of given the job and he's he's a good writer and a good guy but it you you know you you can't you can't take butter and turn it into marmalade like they were two different things you know and and and um I don't know why I'm talking about this one why did I get into this I guess oh the fact that you have to sort of uh follow sometimes follow path without and and you lose track of of your own voice yeah you know I mean to use Charles Sol as an example uh I think he did the best he could with the Inhumans and and and and there were some some good stories but he I think he was handicapped but then his She-Hulk which I think I I even have which was him you know he is a lawyer he was a lawyer so he and Ja pedo great art great artist I work with wacky guy but but um a a great artist and um that is that was him following his his story She-Hulk yeah but they don't always get the chance nowaday and I back back when I was doing Starman and back when there were some of these other books being done you were allowed to the books were allowed to grow they were allowed they they didn't have to fall into this event thing that seems to go on for now I remember with with Starman there was two of them there was one where the sun goes out and there was another one I don't remember the other one there wasn't there was two of them where where I had to tie it in with with the with the event but I did it for one issue and I was allowed to do it in a in an oblique way that didn't compromise the feel of staran right but I notice these books now man they the the the the crossover aspect is months and months and months so that's like you know four or five months of your year when you well you're not writing your story you're writing this other story that that feeds the the bigger beast and and that's a part of today's comics and I it's it's funny like you know I have this very sort of I have to always take a half step back and look and go okay well that's not my thing you know it's not what I it's not what I know love or want and then you know there's but there's you know there are thousands and thousands of people out there who that's what they want because that's what they've been doing and you know and I I go but I'm like boy it just to me like there's such a compression of of opportunity or lost opportunity for creators especially in the writing aspect to come up with a thing like because if you're getting your Rhythm writing the series and like hey here's my initial pitch and you're going to do your original Arc and then after that Arc you know like you're now you're improvising and now you're coming up with new stuff and the new thing could be way better than the second thing or the first thing and but if you're like coming up like hey this is a cool idea and all a sudden this big hand comes down and says okay now you need to do this well it really kind of breaks a lot of rhythm of what you could put together like I mean if Chris you know Claremont had someone stopping him you know for four or five months a year for his run I don't know what he would have produced in that respect absolutely right absolutely right and you know but but I mean books sold more then so so there wasn't this whole we need to generate sales we need to come up with this with the next sort of story gimmick yeah um yeah they were different times huh I'm Chris clemont's runs and just how they played out slowly over time you know people forget that even uh Wolverine when he first appeared obviously he was created by Len we but but I mean clemont did so much but the book was Bim monly for about what for about six seven issues so that's about more than a year and it took I don't know about a long time until you even knew the name Logan until you even know knew he had a name yeah things played out over time which was which I don't know that you can do now people get people are impatient and then they get online and they talk about it and get old I mean I I I remember knowing what his first name was you know in the offices and it but it was like nobody talked about it you're like okay I guess I'm not going to tell anybody because that's sort of the the model and you know now I don't think there's any way to have security that's why they don't let anyone in the offices anymore yeah yeah I remember the first real breach um and it it happened actually this was before the was it before the internet was it just starting um but what was that one Armageddon you remember Armageddon sure and you probably know this most people do now but uh Archie gwiin wrote the the the first the introduction the first story that that then became the crossover and that it was that in the future that one of the heroes of today would become this villain who would come back and mess up things and it was meant to be Captain atam M and then someone someone leaked that someone in the mail room or wherever decided they were going to tell everybody so that became common knowledge so at the last minute they turned it into Hawk from Hawk and Dove who was Armageddon gotcha and and that um you know I guess it worked but it it didn't really because it it because from the start it was when it's meant to be one person you have to shift gears because of something out of your control it it just messed it up but that was the first time I remember um one of these confidential bits of info got out before it should have but I mean yeah now you got to be very careful yeah that's I mean I guess the whole thing is that you know the Twist and the secret is all the is all the cash value of a lot of stuff these days so you have to you know lock in key um all right so I'm gonna like let me just kind to get a little bit of the the the how long you been in the states I came to the states uh New Year's Eve 1988 okay so 1989 it's when I came to the states and was it with the intention of being in this business or something else um well I had written a a graphic novel called London's dark for Titan books the first thing I did and then I then what happened oh and then when it was still in in black and white for not it's black and white when it was still in photocopy when I was trying to get reviews for the back covers and stuff I was very fortunate there was a a a UK comic convention and that year I uh Matt Wagner was there and so was um Archie Goodwin and I think I for somehow or other I had gotten these books I'd gotten the somehow Matt got it even earlier and he told me at the time that he was going to take a break from doing grle it was going to end with issue 40 this and he was still at kamiko the book was still being published by Kamika so did I want to do the the grandle Tales story that I ended up doing uh did I want to do it while he was taking a break and then he was going to come back with war child okay and of course I said that's great sure and and we wrote I wrote two there's there's two and a half it's somewhere in a storage locker somewhere in in the world I think still it hasn't been destroyed Philip Bond did the first two two and a half issues of of my grand Tales no way really and then that then Kamika went bankrupt and because it was you know it just was the time the way it was back then if you signed the wrong deal you kind of got screwed or you know where first owned pieces of first Comics own pieces of this this book or that book and Creator said to you know go to become um sue them to get it back that sort of thing was going on with kamiko and and and grandall and Darkhorse came in and sorted it out and it became a Darkhorse book but that was about two years there's a point to where I'm going with this that was about two years um and uh uh and because he was kind of relaunching uh grandall Matt Wagner actually relaunched it with warchild instead of my book and then I I I came after that mhm but so so I had so so back backtracking I had the kamiko I had that work to do the the grandor book but at the same time A friend of mine Mike Lake who owns uh Titan who at the time own owned Titan Distributors and um and Forbidden Planet in in New York was opening a store in Sherman Oaks in Los Angeles and he asked me if I wanted to come out and run it so I thought well I have time I mean even with even doing grandle for um for kamiko I mean the deadline was a pretty long deadline so I thought why not so I came out for what I thought would be a few months and ended up never going back wow and then um you know yeah so it was it was it helped me to come out here the other the other problem I had back in England was that at the time in Darkhorse sorry at DC there were these fom so you had you know group editor five so you had Mike Mike Carlin doing Superman Danny O'Neal doing Batman and then you had Karen burer who was doing like every writer and artist in England that was her her area yeah um and she didn't she she had she had all the writers she needed uh she sort of poached a lot from from uh 200 ad MH War Warrior magazine Len we had already hired Alam Moore um so she had no interest in in me at all and her she made that clear she was so rude to me I'll tell you that now she was awful to me I was this eager young man wanting to work and she was just try she would trying and shut me down and I never gave up So the lucky thing was I went came to America and I was no longer an English writer living in England so I could go to other DC editors and at around the same time Archie Goodwin who had already read London star and had given me a lovely back cover quote um he he told me this is not confidential he told me this story so he was he was doing work at Epic but he didn't really feel he the work he was doing for epic was really being appreciated by the people of Marvel they think they thought it was a boutique thing and then he and then they they they did havoc and Wolverine which was this sort of painted beautiful painted book it was m j John J MTH and Kent Williams and he was at this uh editorial meeting and the book had sold three4 of a million copies or something ridiculous and someone one of the head people said yeah it's great but can you imagine how good it would have been if we'd gotten like Marvel artist to do it and he knew that was it he they just didn't get him and they didn't really get the kind of work he aspired to be involved in so he quit and went to DC and that's how I got the golden age and um uh Tim s you know doing blades and all of that stuff yeah so so so so anyway yeah I came to England I came to America stayed and and began my career to took a little while I was the king of like doing these projects that would I would get I would write them I would get paid for them and then something would happen to the company and they wouldn't get published so I I wrote two 96 page graphic novels for there was a British uh British a British comic it was a spin-off from 2000 it was a Fleetway comic called revolver and it was meant to be sort of serialized graphic novels but they would be they would appear as as graphic in serialized form and then they'd be graphic novels and the most noteworthy thing that come out of it was Grant Morrison and Ryan Hughes did a a book called dare which was a sort of modern version of dandere or a modern a neomodern retro dandere um so I did two of those one with Tony Salmons he did uh eight pages and got in flaked and one with Steve Yol who uh yeah you're laughing about Tony Salmon's flaking aren't you he was he one of the great flakers yeah um and then Steve Yol who isn't he's a good really good guy great artist but the book anyway they got cancelled it was and um neither of those got published I then did uh remember first Comics did those Classics beautiful Classics Illustrated they did the you know Bill sovic did Moby Dick I bought that yeah so I did go to F okay yeah imagine unda that in a comic book man that was hard work but it it was a good challenge and it was going to be done by the panda Brothers okay good and and they were like we we want you to to to to to bend the rules and make it uh new and and you know for in like for instance if we did if we did uh the Tin Man in in Wizard of Oz I remember this being an example the Tin Man in Wizard of O what if he what if the Tin Man was a giant walking Coke machine Coke bottle yeah and I was so they wanted that kind of think so so the panda brothers did did some initial work and it and and there was like I don't remember it was like some some logo company logo they threw in MH and it was like they had drawn a gigantic [ __ ] and and sent it in they people they we can't do this we can't do this and then in the time it took them to find someone else to draw it I think Bernie Moro was going to do it if you remember um uh first out of business so that I got paid for that and and then there was one more I did that and didn't got paid and there's a whole Hellraiser story I did that never got published painted beautiful yeah um and then eventually it as all this crap was going on I actually got to DC and I started with the golden age and Dark Knight and then eventually got Starman and carried on from there yeah it's yeah well listen I think anybody who's you know in the business for you know as a professional for more than two years is going to start acre those stories of all the projects that just and they could be done like I have I have a whole issue of pencils of Luke Cage that I did never never never made it to print and after like a few years I got a box and they're like hey here you go they just sat it just sat in the files and then they just they just said okay well we're never going to print these so here you go oh that reminds me actually when I was in um in England I came to America I visited America I I made friends with an artist called Mark Badger and I came out to visit New York and I went into the offices so I I got around Karen burer this way but I I could but once I went back to England I couldn't do it it was so these five which sound so ridiculous now they really were a pain in the butt back in the day and he he was editing uh secret Origins so he he gave me to do the secret origin of Dinosaur Island and so that was the first DC work I did I wrote and there are I have pencils I can find them probably I should put them on a on a I should I should start my own website and put some of this [ __ ] up actually but um Tim burgard who God I don't even know what he's doing now he he he was a he did a little bit of comic book work back in the day but I think he found more it was more um uh uh better paying and easier to do animation and storyboards yeah he did uh all of the pencils which were then lost because uh during the move from DC the old six six to 17 whatever on Sixth Avenue yeah so but yes that that was actually but that's an another example of uh things just get sad on yeah yeah it's it's I mean it's it's a thing I mean that it's just part of the business and you know like you said companies go under and regimes change and a lot of stuff you know so a lot of things just just kind of sit there and lie fallow or you know or just someone walks up and shoots them in the back of the head and moves on so yeah it's it's a heartbreaking actually I have a Pander Brothers um story that dovetails nicely with your your point with arie's point of view or his observation I was in um the group edit office for the X-Men books in the 9s and they were they were lamenting like I guess a dip in sales and they were trying to figure out how to generate more sales and looking for new artists and of course after I failed to uh Lobby my own case I said well you need you should just do things that are unexpected like you should make the books beautiful and interesting and like hire the Pander Brothers to do some you know X-Men stories and they all Lo they looked at me and they're like who are the Pander Brothers there's no way I was like okay well this is this is a no hope situation for me yeah so it was a quick conversation um all right so what's going like what's going on you've got like you've got this wealth of things by the way say the name of the novel is there any way for people to get your novel like the the printed novel no no this is what I'm I'm hoping to do okay is launch it once I have we've done it me and Jeff Jeff have done this kickstar yeah which we'll talk about minute um the I this will educate me enough that in the next few months I can do a second Kickstarter that would just be me doing this book and I like to do hard cover I'd actually like to kind of do it as a hard cover like those wanding star do you know those wandering star books yeah yeah uh they wanding star for people that don't know was a hard cover beautiful hard cover editions that were done as a way for the people that had the film rights to Solomon Caine to do the to do a film so they kind of it's a little bit like the the people that wanted to keep the Fantastic for rights so did that shitty Roger Corman Fantastic Four movie right years ago never intending for it to be released that with wild with wanding star they actually instead did these books that were very reminiscent of um sh shrier a is a publisher that would do these incredible children's Classics or you know Adventure Classics with NC W illustrations Maxville Parish illustrations Etc um the most you know one of the most famous been NC um Treasure Island yeah sure we have a over there so so they they did these versions and they got Gary Giani Mark schz different artists to do beautiful dust jackets and and plates inside and and um little tiny spot ows at the chapter headings and things like that so I don't know if I can pull this off but I would like to try and find an artist that would want to do that aspect of it with me and and do a hard cover yeah then you know hard covers only sell that many anyway unless you're you know Neil gaimon or or we know we know what's his name we all know him yeah um so so uh do that and and get it out that way first and hopefully get some buzz and and I there's so much I have to get done though I have to I have to start get this website that I'm sort of putting together finally up up and running so that I can begin you know communicating more with my readers again and coming back into the real world so so there's that and then um so but by the end of the year I hope to have that into a in a in a place where people can read it right now we'll we'll you and I will talk talk a little bit after we stop recording can give you some some some names and some stuff to think about with that we love some some advice on that and then we have obviously we're doing the kickstarter and then I have uh two projects with uh with Darkhorse I don't think they would want me to start talking about them just yet unfortunately but they're with great artists that I uh have been working with and the editor Daniel shabon who is Michael chabon's brother okay yeah my favorite literally my favorite author so his brother fantastic editor really nice so uh that's been going very well um I'm enjoying it and then um I have one more project that is I'm also doing with another pretty well-known artist um who is once he kind of pulls himself away from some personal stuff that he has to finish up he he he'll be starting on that so I have those going on um and then the books the book the writing and then uh and then um and then the the kickstarter with Jeff okay well let's talk about let's talk about rogue's kingdom yes rogue's Kingdom so but the back story is I've wanted to work with Jeff since the days of Wonderman I I I used to go up every um Wonder con back in the back in the day the early days when it was in Oakland yeah okay and um and uh the the sort of what what what I would do each time is I would go up a I would go up a couple of days early I'd hang out with an artist friend of mine John Esters who I did a a Batman dead man painted book years ago for with farach and we would smoke weed and play golf nice and then we and then I remember going to one like creators get together the day before the convention started I was so and and um there was this one Creator I won't say who but he has a very high pitch voice and I kept I was so obsessed that there was a bee that was buzzing around my head and this guy's voice telling these stupid stories um anyway uh so so it was in that so so there used to be the Northern California group of writers I artists mainly sorry not wrers and it was you know Dan Bron uh Derek Robertson Steven Jones and and and OC John Esters and then there was there was um Jeff and he was he is the nicest guy yeah he's always been the nicest guy and um I mean he's and he was in the Army I mean he knows how to kill people with his bare hands yes but he's you wouldn't you wouldn't think so in a minute in fact there's a I'll tell you a story which I I think it's a the version I tell is about 75% true but you know like Man Who Shot Liberty Valance when you have a choice between truth the legend print the legend right so so the so the truth is that they it was it was at San Diego and it was stevenh Jones it was Derek Robertson couple of others maybe I don't remember who else and Jeff Johnson and Derek Robinson would probably admit that back in the day he was a little bit of a mouthy Wise Wise cracker a little bit you know he he he would speak first and and think about the consequences of so he so they'd all Ed a couple of drinks they were in San die not San Diego sorry they were in San Diego but they had big important Point they'd crossed the border to hang out for the night in Tijana Tiana sure which is classic San Diego Behavior especially in the 90s so they went they went there and he got into a Derek got into a some kind of insult shouting exchange with a young lady who was with like four jocks right and one thing led to another and suddenly they're they're in a sort of street fight these so you got comic book artists versus Street jcks classic tough guys as comic book artist yes so they're having this sort of and I think it was Stephen Jones told me this part they Ste stepen Stephen B Jones and Jeff are lifelong buddies they've been they've been friends for for 30 40 years long time and he said they were screaming and was fighting and all of a sudden it start to go quieter and quieter and quieter and and Jeff Johnson had just slowly like choke holded and pinched and done all this Kung Fu not stuff and suddenly just diffused the entire situation in this calm zenik manner like David kadine and Kung Fu so he's always had this quality but at the same time he's the nicest guy so I've wanted to work with him forever and we began talking about working forever um I mean we've had this project gestating for a good while and it's it's a sord sord sorcery is that the right term it's in it's in that vein yes yes it's it's it has a a fantasy feel it although some of the some of the look and and and the designs are more 16th century France yes so it's it's in that nebula sort of roges key not um a Game of Thrones type thing where you can't quite place where it is or when it is or anything else and it's it's basically the bigger picture of the story is that there are three kingdoms and they are all they all want each other's territory but they're they're held in check in the way that nuclear weapons keep us in check the world in check by their Wizards and uh the one of these one of these kingdoms lump land the others have beautiful names C castlin fita and but but is lumland there Mage has died after you know 400 years Mages live a long time so there's a caravan this is the first issue the Caravan which has the new Mage on its way from the temples to in the mountains where Mages are trained and trained and become Majors is on his way with his and he's a kid with his older older guardian and they're at the front of this Caravan filled with Traders and and and travelers and all of that making their way across the fields towards lumland and at the very back is a prison cart yep where where there's a sword a sword a sell sword named Rondo manway and a young pickpocket named peachy least and they hated each other they're arguing and they're just they're just they do not get on and then the Caravan is attacked everyone is killed and and um without getting into too many details these two are the are the sole survivors and they they're sort of going through the the the aftermath and pachy has this crazy idea that if he pretends he's a magician and Rondo pretends he's at the guard they can get access to the city and they can take you know loot it steal it whatever until and get away before people realize that they conning them so that's the and Ron and uh Rondo uh agrees he has reservations because he's not a kid and he's and he's been down a few of these paths where things don't end so well in all the in all his years but he agrees but almost immediately they it's a bigger picture that obviously the Caravan wasn't attacked by Bandits the target was the Mage there's more to it so it's it's them not wanting to get involved in this bigger drama and yet they sort of they they both develop consciences and and go from Rogues to Heroes over the course of of the series and at the same time um the King has uh a daughter that at first he thinks is just the normal princess but her name is ter T yeah what is it t e r r a princess Tera but the her sort of nickname will become Tera like t e r r o r because she at night goes out and has learned to sword fight and she's this sort of heroic swashbuckling young girl in her own right cool and the inspiration for that is um a Japanese cartoon from the 60s called Princess Knight okay that was that was was done by who's the who's the who is the animator that did um the White Lion that also oh yeah the I mean the yeah and I don't I don't yeah I know somebody but not me it was one it was one of his and he did the amazing three uh he he's it was one of his that I saw as a kid in Australia I was lucky enough in Australia they had um anime that would be part of morning cartoons I never forgot the series even though I've forgotten the guy's name that did it so so so she's another another part of it so these all these different characters and at first they're dealing with lump land and then they eventually will go to Castle infinit and there will be dragons and there'll be all this fantastic stuff yeah and then and then uh Jeff has been sort of wanting to do a book like this forever dude he's such a fantasy he loves fantasy like he may out he may outdo me in my obsession with fantasy like so so so uh so he um yeah so so so he's decided that this series he just wants to to try and be how Foster oh my God the the the the composition and the just the the World building he's bringing into this with the drawing is next level for him how how how much have you seen I'm not sure how issue one so he's you haven't seen issue two yet okay yeah so it's it's it's um it's amazing art beautiful beautiful art and then we have Matt wag talking to Matt Wagner earlier but his son Bren yeah I mean it's crazy I remember when Matt's wife was pregnant like going up then she was pregnant I remember uh Brennan as a little tiny boy he was like three with bright yellow hair uhhuh and now he's he's uh the colorist for the book he's great too he's a really good colorist very good colorist yeah so so um so so so that's the book we're launching and then in the back of each book um I'm doing a text short story yep I read one of I think I think Jeff passed one of them onto me so I read that so yes so it will each each issue will have a um a text a text short story which when it is when obviously at some point we will collect these you know the arc by Arc this is something I learned from from Brew Baker actually which is that um at one point we were talking me and Ed and I said I would love to write something some crime fictiony article for the back of whatever this was back when he was doing Co comic books now they they just do those hard covers MH uh and and he said well that's fine but you should know that that it's it will appear once it never be reprinted because it's the reward for people that bought the comic and didn't wait for it to go to trade yeah and I always thought that was a nice idea I mean Comics are expensive and there's nothing worse I mean if you if you're loving the series and you buy it issue by issue it's one thing but when you're kind of buying a series and you're like it's okay and then issue five comes out or six and then the the trade comes out a week later and you're like boy I could have waited and just read the whole thing and saved some money so having having having something that is only in the um in the comic I think is important it means a lot to me and to Jeff well it's it it helps it be or maintain the ephemeral nature of comic books right by the way be did did you did you like my Pro style yeah absolutely yeah so so so um I'm not afraid of a bad answer with something like yeah but uh yeah so so so it will it will each issue will have a a Pros story that will um and i' I've written them all I'm actually quite quite proud of them and um uh we have uh alternate covers by Dave Johnson Ryan Suk Brennan Wagner different people yeah I mean we have you know all the things that would make a uh a great tiered uh set the tears of a Kickstarter yeah we have already and I believe we're launching in nine days okay so let's see today is the fourth so that would be the 13th yes that's right look at me doing some big math no that's that's right and and Jeff is having a uh a a live cam uh drink and drawer party on the 13th at his local comic book store I think I will be on a TV screen somewhere chiming in I I I'm actually on the 14th I'm going to uh Phoenix to see Jayden Nanda so okay otherwise I would be in I would be there well you can say hi to Jamie and Steve because that's that's Rogue that's Rogue City Rogue City Comics which of course is appropriate name for your book yeah they're great i' i' I have family who live in the same town as Jeff lives so I get to I get to go out there and uh hang out at that comic shop and enjoy Medford um Oregon oh no I know everyone know that Jeff lives in Medford now now he's gonna have to choke out some more people oh yeah yeah yeah well I mean so Kickstarter it is yes it is it is a j o so it is it is a lot of work and it's an emotional roller coaster that you can be as prepared for it as you want to be but you're going to feel it it doesn't there's no way around it what what what what aspect what what brings these waves of conflicting emotion so the first thing that happens is you really anxious about getting everything in order and I'm sure I've talked to Jeff and he's just like there's so much to do and there's a lot to do to get this whole thing kind of squared up so you can get it all to have all your tiers organized to have all your graphics together to get all the stuff put together so when you actually do go live you can layer it all out and then you you go live and you're just like oh my God oh my God oh my God is anybody gonna do anything and there's two sort of things that happen very little action happens or you go boom straight up and it's this explosion of like you know whoa you know kind of response yeah okay I'm already getting I'm already and I'm telling you this and you and you and you could you can listen to this a hundred times before you you you go live and you're still going to experience it and then it's going to feel like is what I call the trench is like the space between the beginning of the second week and the end right before your final week There's this thing I call the trench where you I mean you could say hey I'm going to do a strip tease you know for every you know for every you know $100 I'll take an article of clothing off you know like you could do a lot and you will get no attention in that period of time it just it because it never matches what you think you're doing and then that last week for some reason who knows what the powers would be the the afterburners kick on and it just starts ripping up again and it's crazy um so I I I am not necessarily the right temperament for that kind of I I'm this might be the death of me Kickstarter might be the death of me I download download a a meditation app and quickly begin your meditation process yeah I think I think I need I need that or or or a a bottle of gin or Jin you could do both at the same time there's no judgment here you know this isud own but it's it's an interesting it's an interesting thing um it really does highlight your being a a business like when you do this you're like oh I'm like you have to think like a business and in in you know when you're producing this stuff so I'm really excited to watch how this all kind of comes together and you know you I mean I know it'll be fine but it's a question of like you know I don't know I'm sure I'm sure I'll be engaging with Jeff throughout the whole thing to hear his feedback and maybe I'll pick I'll bug you at the end of the whole thing and see how you're yeah yeah please I'm I'm you're putting the FY god in me though I'm not put the god into you James I'm try I'm just trying I'm just trying to saying it's this amaz it's this amazing thing that there are these forces that happen that just don't seem to like it's it's a it's just a repeating like you know it's like a it's like a detective book or a romance book there's a model and you just write the story that fits within the model and that's that's and the readers will be satisfied well for some reason Kickstarter has a model and that's just kind of how it goes right right yeah and you know you have lots of friends they're all going to they're all going to pledge so I I I hope so I I take my if I have if I have one floor if one of my many floors I should say is that I do tend to go off in my cave and Friends forget about me and I forget about them and it's not it's not that I don't love them or care about them I just kind of I've always been a little bit of a loner yeah I'm you know I'm man I'm I'm very much can identify with that I'm I like talking this is if this is an yeah that's that's a I can see that it's a good good trait good trait but I I'm you know I was I was from a mixed family so I have lots of siblings but they're all halves and steps and I'm the only one from my parents so I'm very much like me and I have to really be shook out of my own space at times to remember oh I got to call my friend back who's called me like six times you know and this is like my best friend I'm like okay hey what's up you know and he's like I haven't heard from you in a while I'm like it's not you it's just my mind don't worry yeah yeah it's not by the way the more I talked to you is it possible we met like 30 years ago it's very possible we met we met 30 years ago I mean I was I went to San Diego a bunch of times in the you know in the early to mid 90s and I was you know I lived in Manhattan for 25 years so I was at the Marvel and TC offices all the time yes there's there's a familiar quality to you not not a bad not a bad quality all is it a high pitch annoying sound that makes you think there's a be when you're high no no no that that's someone else I'm kind of be I would never be mean about someone but boy I am just kidding and and I I bumped into him at a convention a while not that long ago and he still has that same annoying voice right I wasn't high at the time thankfully well you know now you know the is legal in Vegas but I uh I'm I am not the pothead that of your of your your previous years I I was never a huge pothead I I would I the problem is this is an odd thing to admit but I had a when I was like nine I asked my mother if I could try a cigarette she said sure and I tried this thing at 9ine and it the taste of it was so disgusting to me as a 9-year-old and I've never forgotten that taste that I never never smoked I just couldn't bring myself to smoke so as a result the few times that I that I did kind of smoke to show off or talk to a girl that was smoking or something I would end up just coughing my brains out my lungs are not are not the kind that like smok in them so as a result I don't um really enjoy smoking weed that much because I cough all the time and it's just so I I I do enjoy Edibles that's that's the that's the uh the game changer right there yeah yes and I also enjoy uh cooking with with weed okay you know uh I would recommend substituting weed for sage in a stuffing for chicken and you will the best Sunday dinner you ever yeah totally how do we eat all this food you know built it's built in a design to have you finish the meal yeah I love it I love it well um why don't we put a pin on it here and um it was absolutely great talking to you maybe we've met before and I'll just say it's great to reconnect how's that will make this up and uh I'm for anyone watching this I'm sorry that I I've I've always been someone that rambles that has a a very clear and succinct point but for some reason instead of going from here to here I'll take it all the way around and and sometimes I forget where I'm going and it just gets get lost so I hope I I didn't do too much of that but I know I did a little bit well the good thing is is the the my job is to try to keep the the rails you know in line what but uh I think anybody who loves what you do is going to listen to everything you have to say so good yeah I hope I hope that was worth I'm sure it's it's it's it'll be worth it for everyone um thanks man I really really had a great time talking with you okay thank you but