Jayson Tatum is a Boston Celtics superstar, but why is he disrespected?

Jason Tatum disrespected as a superstar the summer of Tatum disrespect continues we're going to talk about it here on the lockdown Celtics podcast than to Blockbuster Brad as holiday seon Dr Drew in the mix and three from KP no we not on the next flushing competition like h on Yannis juic and Big D still being Town's finest Ben going up in the rafs watching SE gaining locks on after car on the break CL like a tip from d on the breakdown on the mic docent domination m p back all SE Nation r j how start raising B how we finish locked on s p home of the [Music] winners welcome back to the lockdown CICS podcast right here on the lockdown podcast Network it's your team every day I got you covered every Monday Wednesday and Friday yeah it's one more Monday here we got a couple more Mondays before we go to five days a week again so make sure you are subscribed still much more podcasting here than you're going to find anywhere else free fresh uh soon to be daily again I'm John corales if you're new to the show I am been covering the Celtics now for nearly 20 years I'm an old man now I'm doing it for Boston Sports Journal as a beat writer I'm also the author of two Celtics books the newest one is built different a commemorative book celebrating Banner 18 find that where you find your books Today's Show is brought to you by Game Time download the game time app create an account use the code locked on NBA for $20 off your first purchase of last minute tickets terms apply Today's Show is about the uh I guess disrespect for Jason Tatum thank you ESPN again in their draft of Superstar players that you're going to pick to start a team Jason Tatum not high enough for my guy Tom Westerholm what's going on Tom how's it going oh great oh great it's been it's nice to talk to you again after a long layoff it's been a long time yes so ESPN like look they're they're doing what we're doing right the hoop Collective fine podcast uh respect all of those guys greatly we around Tim bontemps all the time uh as as beat riters he's at the Garden all the time he's I like all of those guys uh but we disagree with their their the way they have uh characterized Jason Tatum they did a snake draft of guys in the league that you would start a franchise with today so number one pick overall Victor wanyama makees sense y That's a guy everybody would pick first they went Luca donic second which I'm already like okay interesting seems high but they were saying like this is a no-brainer in fact their debate was hey some people might say Luca number one I don't know yeah that Luca is a number one pick for the the guy you want to start your franchise with I I would have picked I would have picked joic second myself I thought that was the no-brainer I thought no-brainer was wimy yic yeah like so to me the no-brainer is like the the the the the debate right is like do I want to try to win a championship now or a few championships in the future and that's the yic wemi debate not the donic debate that right I feel like you've got and they were talking about this I think they're right in saying there's like a five-year window probably with joic but he's so damn good he is so good that you have a chance to win if you do it right and side note I'm not sure that the Denver Nuggets are doing it right you have a five-year window moving forward to potentially win a championship with joic wanyama you're not winning a championship right now no especially not like if you're just starting with him the way the Spurs are built you're it's still a few years away like he has things that he needs to work on okay great uh um he's so damn good already that yes yeah you you you bet on him Luca I mean is it is it me because I just watched him lose to the Celtics and and lose because they were attacking him over and over and over again am I the only one who saw the Celtics win a championship by attacking Luca donic defensively relentlessly that's so but but that's that's in the conversation that we've been having since before the finals right like and that was one of the things that I think drove both myself and you so crazy when we were talking during the finals it's like is nobody else watching this am I crazy who's what is going like I'm watching the Boston Celtics take one look at Luca donic and say like food chicken I want I want that I want that match up give me that match up specifically and if you don't like like like like I want to run every single thing we we talked before about all the other guys we thought the Celtics would Target and instead they targeted donic specifically as much as possible and that was that was their whole plan like to me that guy at two is very high and look the Mavericks just made the finals you know in a very competitive Western Conference they just came out of it and he was you know the the the entire engine behind all that and I have a lot of respect for that um this is not a Trey young situation to be clear I I I do not feel Trey Youngy about donic but right that high seems like a lot to me I think we forget that the Mavs weren't exactly tearing it up this the the beginning of the season and it took that midseason trade remember is it wasn't the story oh the the the the the Mavs made a mid-season trade they brought in uh was it Gafford to to and and and he's he's the guy like that all of a sudden things started to fit now we can say this about any Superstar you you need the right complimentary pieces and part of what makes Luca so great is his passing and if you run pick roll with a guy who can finish the lob and now they had what Lively and Gafford and guys like that that can finish the lobs that now all of a sudden it becomes well that vertical spacing yeah makes makes Luca dangerous all of that stuff all of that stuff is true but I guess I I don't know I I was I was surprised and I this I I I feel like this is just maybe the boss in perspective I knew right away from the beginning was the first thing that I said when the Celtics were playing the nug the the the the Mavs attack Luca just go at him right now like from the beginning and they did and it worked and I was like great I don't know how you can come off of a finals where that was the case and say he's my number two guy right to build around now that's not to say that I wouldn't go three or four or five because a triple double machine and he's an incredible offensive player and frankly I think the disappointment of the finals could could spur something in him he's still a really young player yeah he's really young yep and I'm sure that's a big part of the calculus here right is like there's still all that room to grow and like you're factoring in you know that that he's kind of if you you know if you're looking on a on a timeline Continuum you got wemi here and you got yic here Luca's in the middle of that so like I do get that right that there's sure you know that makes sense okay but we we still haven't gotten to Tatum yet right and and so not that close to Tatum yet to be honest we're not even close this is and and so okay I already disagree with Luca at two he should be three four somewhere in there five uh Shay Gil just Alexander at four is an incredible incredible pick um the the Thunder you know what let's take a second let's chew on this because the next the next three picks we've we've we've gone through three wemi Luca yic we're going through three more before we even get to Tatum and this is why we're like what is going on didn't we just watch this guy win a championship and we're talking about who do you want to start your team with so you can win a championship and we're still not at the guy who literally just did the thing that you're trying to do let's talk about that in just a second Today's Show is brought to you by better help now I know therapy uh it can be very beneficial for a lot of people uh myself included and I think sometimes you just need to talk through some things uh maybe sometimes it's just as simple as why is Luca donic ranked so much higher I can't believe it it's driving me up a wall um but from something simple to something more complicated you can talk through it with somebody at betterhelp because it's all online it's convenient flexible suited to your schedule you do not have to go from office to office around your home or your work or wherever trying to find somebody you're limited in that way and if you don't click with that person now it could be very discouraging this is all online you fill out a brief questionnaire you get match with the licensed therapist and you can switch anytime as often as you need for no additional charge until you find somebody that clicks so you can never skip th day with betterhelp go to betterhelp.com lockon NBA betterhelp hp.com lockon NBA to get 10% off your first month give therapy a try right now with better help thanks for making lockdown Celtics your first listen every day make your second listen locked on NBA catch me on Wednesday with Jake Madison of locked on Pelicans we uh host every Wednesday so uh we'll see what we're talking about on Wednesday no don't know yet but we had an interesting discussion last week about Damen Lillard and his legacy we probably continue that uh and because I think there's a lot more to talk about there uh with him and the Bucks and we're going to continue our conversation now with the Bucks and Giannis uh so go check out lock. NBA wherever you get lock your your podcast watch a show on YouTube uh okay Tom so we've gotten through those three the next three picks were SGA um you need to unmute yourself uh Giannis and Anthony Edwards so six picks before you get to Jason Tatum I don't know I don't know where you want to start with this okay so let's I think the the easiest one for me to start with is is Edwards um where you know and I think with all these guys there comes the the the caveat that we're not you know trashing any of these of these these guys as stars like we're talking about the upper echelon here we're talking about the best of the best we're talking about guys who are going to make all NBA first teams and Lead their teams you know deep you know that's all I I hope that's all unsaid right like we all agree on that yeah Anthony Edwards to me is a is pretty wild ahead of Tatum because it's like I mean okay so this has been one season of not not one season of thinking he's going to be great but one season of like proving it you know kind of deeper into the playoffs and I I like do people do people think that Tatum's teams have been stacked every year that he's been in the playoffs to the point that we discount all of the playoff success like that's yeah that's a lot of playoff success that we sort of yeah you know pushing to the back in favor of somebody who's had one year um it's not but it's not like his team was not stacked you know that Timberwolves team had a lot of very good players on it too so it to me the Edwards one is the one where it's just like okay I think we are jumping the gun here a bit and like putting people ahead of Tatum that you know I mean like like T so so this season right like like Tatum's stats were a little bit down but we all saw why that was and the result was a championship whereas last year his stats were right up there with your sgas right up there with you know all of these guys like he's capable of doing that and has taken a whole step back from doing that for the betterment of his team and it's like if you're starting a franchise and you're like I want a guy who's going to help me win championships hey how about the guy who is capable of doing a lot and is willing to step back slightly to help you accomplish that that seems very valuable to me it the the history of what Jason Tatum's been able to accomplish is the most glaring thing yeah here because you have on this team okay Luca joic okay SGA he's coming into his own like that he's he's not gonna have a ton of History Edward's not gonna have a ton of History Giannis has some history um obviously won a championship but Tatum Tatum has been there it because Tatum has been uh close but not over the top for so long it's a detriment to him and and frankly the thing that's worked against Tatum the most is that this concept of when when they've called on Tatum and say hey well the the the the way the Warriors beat the Celtics was to get Tatum and brown to try to do too much and when they tried to do too much they struggled they failed and the failure was put on those two guys specifically and that that goes down as a mark against Tatum never mind the fact that he got them to this point never mind the fact that he saved the Celtics in multiple Series where they were out and not capable of you know or or or on the verge of uh on the verge of of of being beaten Tatum was there to save those guys so a lot of this stuff that historically has happened has has gone down as a a mark against Tatum as opposed to being marks for Tatum building up to he's finally learned how to win a championship and I think you know he doesn't get he probably doesn't get enough credit and I also think like when you look at so so and I think that kind of plays into right the the Shay and the and the Anthony Edwards and all of that where it's like these guys are are getting credit for stuff that I don't know I mean their teams were also very talented and and all that but and they haven't gotten their very talented teams as far as as Tatum has um obviously they're a lot younger sure totally but I think it's also interesting to kind of look at Giannis who I I think I I I would I would I would take Giannis over Tatum but I have to think about it harder than I think most people probably would just because when you look at how easy it is to build a team around Jason Tatum this is a guy who does can can get you buckets right can get to the rim um you know something's going on with this three-point shot love to see that you know that starts to come around all right great then we're talking about like you know then I think then I think like that answers a lot of these questions but like you know can do everything defensively can do all the stuff like I think he's probably a little bit easier to build around maybe than than than jannis in some degrees right where where there there's things that Giannis can't do um's you know he's not ever gonna be like a great shooter or anything like that and like and and that does not stop him from being a super duper star alltime player you know but I mean Jason Tatum is is very easy to build a franchise around very easy to build a champ I mean you know Celtics had to make like a lot of a lot of big moves but um you know that like Tatum Tatum's versatility Tatum's ability to do so many different things opens up a lot and I feel like that has to factor in as well when you start to think about like where you're going to start building a franchise let me ask you this question do you think this would have been different if Jason Tatum won Eastern Conference Finals MVP and finals MVP instead of Jaylen Brown so it's a good question uh maybe I also think it's it's tough timing for Tatum coming off the Olympics too right where it's like like we we' like there's been a lot of it's been the summer of Jason Tatum but yeah you know there's been a few butts there's been the Eastern Conference Finals MVP there's been the finals MVP there's been the Olympics there's been some stuff where it's like you know you know didn't that didn't totally go his way it went his way a lot but it didn't totally go his way right right let's explore this let's take a second here let's explore this because to me it came down to like three people's decisions and if three people had a different Vision than this entire conversation about Legacy completely changes about that in just a second Today's Show is brought to you by game time game time's going to get you these last minute tickets to whatever you want Theater comedy Sports Major League Baseball they do have major league baseball tickets they're an official uh Major League Baseball ticketing Marketplace so very simple uh to go and say hey I decided I want to go to a Red Sox game or whatever game you are you might be around if you're in a different city and you just go to game time you open up the app and you start cruising around the closer you get to the first pitch prices 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apply again create an account redeem the code locked on NBA L cke locked on NBA for $20 off download game time today last minute tickets lowest price guaranteed thanks for making locked on Celtics your first listen every day go check out the locked on podcast for all the other teams especially when the Celtics start playing again and you go postgame listen to lockdown Celtics first then you listen to the other team to get their take on it it's interesting you might see some things you hear some things about things you didn't notice during the game it's good to get both sides so you kind of know what you're looking for next time all right let's get back into this conversation with Tom and you look at the Eastern Conference Finals voting right it was five to four Jaylen Brown so if Tim bontemps Doris Burke Gary wasburn of the globe Jeff zilet of USA Today if any one of those people Joe Varden if any one of those people had just said ah Jason Tatum then Jason Tatum becomes Eastern Conference Finals MVP and the entire conversation changes now Finals MVP was seven to three so a little bit more of a a a different a little more spread out but there's a couple of these people if if they change their minds let's just say two people that then it's a co-mvp and Jason Tatum gets Conference Finals MVP and co-mvp now you're you made a good point about the Olympics that changes I think the perception if he goes to the Olympics and he plays and he starts and he plays well not even great but well yeah then you know if he got more opportunity from the beginning then that that could have changed a lot of things the whole point is okay we got four people four people Steve St Kerr any one of the people that voted for Jaylen Brown in the Eastern Conference Finals and two of the people who voted for Jaylen Brown in the NBA Finals MVP four individuals if they had just done those things differently which is within their power and and very easily there's plenty of timelines where that does happen then Jason Tatum is seen completely differently by everybody this whole Legacy talk is different the disrespect thing goes away he's not going on a revenge tour like we talked about last week he's not and he's picked probably fourth on this list if all of that other stuff happens right like he would he be picked above Luca if he was the MVP if he was the guy like I I just don't I don't know I feel like yeah and and the reason why I say it this way is four people it's not a lot of people now Steve Kerr is an important person but it just takes a few opinions to shape the entire concept of how a player is perceived Jason Tatum didn't have to do anything differently right it doesn't the way he played everything that he did nothing changes I'm not talking about anything Jason Tatum did I'm just talking about if four people who were not Jason Tatum had different opinions and made different decisions the exact same thing Jason Tatum did would be viewed differently and I think that's where this whole thing becomes unfair yeah and again once again I think we're having the conversation between ourselves that Joe moua will probably try to have you know it doesn't four people's opinions change and you're seen completely differently you just got to keep doing the same thing you're doing like I feel like these are all things that once again he's gonna hear straight from the coach but I tell you what I know once Joe moula plays this podcast for everybody which I'm sure he does and they'll he'll be like oh that's another good point by corales and they'll go ah yes and we'll all move on Happily Ever After for sure that's for sure gonna happen um yeah no I I think I think that's all true though right like and and it's it's I mean look it's it's one of the weird things about you know like try it's realistically it's one of the weird things about trying to control your legacy in the NBA is like yes you don't you don't get to like you can and I mean there's things that you can control and and again not to not to continue to sound like the man but controlling what you can control is you know that's kind of a you know talking point that that many NBA coaches will uh will will Hammer home and certainly Joe moua um but that's it right it's like it's like you can you can control um how you react to a an off shooting night you can control um the the things that you do to try to help your team win you can you know control your effort level on defense you can control these things what you can't control is how people are going to vote for Eastern Conference Finals MVP um what you do know is that if your team loses in the Eastern Conference Finals there's no chance that you're going to win MVP if there if your team loses in the NBA Finals there's you know very little chance that you're going to be picked the MVP so all you can do all you can control is try to do the things that help your team win and I think to me the Crux of the argument for Jason Tatum setting us I mean changing absolutely nothing to your point right changing nothing about how many points he scored how much he played at the Olympics any of that stuff if you change absolutely nothing the case for Jason Tatum comes down to he did all of the things that his team needed him to do to win a championship at the expense of some of the counting stats that factor into the way that he's discussed you know that that is really I find that to be very impressive and you know like a big point in his favor in any of these conversations yeah that that's true he he everybody talks about sacrifice and like we jokingly said at the beginning of last season what's Jas Jason Tatum's do one who doesn't have to sacrifice well what does he have to sacrifice he's gonna start he's gonna play he's gonna play 38 minutes he's gonna do whatever he does he doesn't have to sacrifice but you know what he did he did sacrifice yep um he gave up some of his points he gave up some of his shots he gave up and he has the ball in his hands all the time he doesn't have to give up anything that he doesn't want to um and and he did look I I I don't know where Jason Tatum ranks with all of these guys there are obviously players who are special and magical and as I've said a million times I'll make the comparison again Jason Tatum is like the kid that you stuck in front of the piano and said uh you're learning piano and they started him at a young age and he learned and he went to you know the Boston you know Conservatory School of M Berkeley School of Music all he and he can go in front of the biggest stage and play Beethoven and on all that stuff a guy like Luca is the kid who at the same age went up to a piano and just started playing things by year and people were like whoa that's incredible but he doesn't have the same level of discipline as the guy who learned and the guy who learned doesn't have the same level of feel as the guy who played by year yeah and they're both playing the same Arenas and they're both just as good the guy guy who plays by feel is gonna make some spectacular plays because he's gonna get onto that keyboard and he's gonna be like whoa I I can't even imagine putting that combination of things together and he's gonna do things that people remember and go oh my God he played the most incredible thing I've ever heard he made the most incredible pass I've ever seen whereas Tatum is just gonna go out there and be like precise he the drive the kick the the decisions are going to be great he's going to be the guy who executes and he still learns along the way but he's he's the Executioner type of guy he's just gonna go I know how to do this and is he gonna make the same special magical plays no not necessarily not in the same way but he's still gonna make plays and but people fall in love with the magical stuffff and because somebody has the ability to do something magical they discount the guy who has learned and built and has just become an incredible professional at this but they're both at that same level it's just a matter of how they're perceived and it's perception all we're talking about here is people's perceptions and that and that to me is the biggest difference between these guys and why Tatum tends to fall in these rankings I I I was talking to somebody the other day who who was who was mentioning that they feel that greatness is something is like often considered like something you've never seen before right or something unique as opposed to you know like like um singular Excellence you know it's more something you've never seen before like I've never or something I've never heard before right like it to use your musical example it's like I've never heard this before this is so as opposed to like somebody who you know somebody who comes up with something completely new on guitar against somebody who can just absolutely shred and hit a million notes and like they're very technical and precise but it's different right and I I think that's that that is kind of not you know not that we've never seen somebody like Luca before but he is a little bit more unique and whereas Tatum is feels like a little bit more of yeah like you know each part of his game was very um you know uh slowly built and was very carefully crafted and and his so much of his game was just was just piece by piece by piece by piece by piece until what you have is this amazing basketball player who we've seen in fragments before in other people because he just took things and you know built something and I mean I don't know that yeah it's it's not as you know it might not be as as unique as like a yic or or you know somebody like that where it's like you know like man I have just never seen a you know the the Twitter joke like a seven-footer with lunch lady arms like dishing out passes like this this man is amazing throwing a three4 court alleyoop from out of bounds like oh my God right right but Tatum can do everything like well you know and that I mean a lot of value in that there is incredible value in that and it it the matter is it comes down to personal preference yeah and you know you want a guy that you can give a book and say Here's all this music learn it and play it and he's like yeah sure no problem versus a guy who's like don't worry about it I'll I'll just I'll figure it out and he gets on stage book I'm writing my own book yeah and you're like both are extraordinarily special yes and there's a reason why Jason Tatum has been perennial all NBA first team uh is a perennial All-Star there's a reason why the Celtics won a championship you know we talk about having you know the depth and all that it's great but he did great things and he and jayen and everybody like there's a lot of people were involved in this but he and jayen both LED the Celtics to a championship he is as big a piece um and just because a couple people voted a different way that's their opinions but you can't change that and you can't change like like you said you can't control what other people think but Celtics Celtics are in a position to win multiple championships and very few players do that very few teams do that you got to have the right players special players and he has a chance to be be that so they can say what they want they can put them where they want but we know what we got in Boston but what are they going to say now Tom thank you so much I always appreciate you coming on appreciate you man and I always every single day appreciate you listening at home in the car uh jogging showering whatever watching the show on YouTube thank you so so much uh you know this is a tough time of year and a lot of Celtics fans are are enjoying other things and maybe not Celtics podcast but those of you who continue to listen and watch very much appreciate you I would love it now if you shared the podcast and told everybody that they should be listening to and watching the lockdown Celtics podcast here in the lockdown 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