Valerie Bauerlein On "The Devil at His Elbow" - Alex Murdaugh & The Fall of a Southern Dynasty

so this is a conversation I've been waiting to have for a very long time I said during the Murdoch trial when you told me you were going to write this book that you were going to write the definitive volume of the Murdoch Saga and Valerie borine you did it this book I have not read a book in forever but I I read this book because I started reading it because I knew we're going to interview and I was like okay I'm going to read a bit here a bit there did you dread it I loved it and it was crazy because I it's like I knew the story but it was just couldn't stop I want to ask you before we go into this before we talk about the book The Murdoch story we have history we go 24 years definitionally way back yeah and I gotta ask do I have more dirt on you or do you have more dirt on me I don't know a lot of I I don't know the answer to that but we go way back to when you were the you were flacking for the outdoor for the billboard Association yeah Billboards and you pitched me on a story about Billboards and I said nice to meet you I don't think there's a good story in Billboards right now you right well you're right um I got to ask you have taken a chaotic unruly story and somehow managed to bring it into focus in a coherent narrative how difficult was that to do with the story you know it is such it is an epic American Saga it is there's so many layers upon layers upon layers and it was hard to to organize and and figure out how to explain to readers you you know the the to go back to the beginning to go back to the beginning that every crime that elic Murdoch com you know committed or was convicted of has an echo in the past so I felt like I needed to get into the history in the previous generations and organizing it was a challenge but um you know it it was hard but I I'm glad that it held together for you I'm glad that you enjoyed it um so just the history uh the how the research how long did I I mean the research just the research alone before you even started writing must have taken months but you know I mean you know but with the the homicides were on June 7th 20121 ellic wasn't charged until mid July of 2022 so there was an entire year when we didn't know who killed them who killed Maggie and Paul and then we didn't know if anybody would ever be charged so I spent an immense amount of time in that year researching the family going back through old you know archival court documents in Hampton um old newspapers in Walterboro in in Hampton and so I had you know I had I had the benefit of time it was it was it was nerve-wracking because I knew I was writing a book and I had to know the ending and we didn't know any ending but it did give me the benefit of time to figure out the context and the importance of the family Dynasty and the place where the story took place County ton of other people were writing books at the same time so there's a competitive so so many yeah yeah and all of them came out before this one well you know hey Best For Last right Save The Best For Last let me uh a lot of folks have been making comparisons uh they've been uh you citing who they believe the the book reminds them of and and so I'm going to be guilty of that too I I don't know if you remember William Manchester that wrote The Death of a president I we actually got it over there on the the wall but just the way that you take just a graphically violent story because this is at its heart it's a very graphic murder murder history really it is um but taking that sort of weaving into a narrative that that brings out the significance of all these players in the history like you did um when you go when you go back through and think about how it's been received how it's been reviewed how it's been portrayed do you think who do you think it sounds like does it sound like Val does it sound like uh oh gosh I'm I'm well I'm flattered um by that comparison you know it's it's a graphically violent story it's also emotionally violent and and moral violent the um the violence he committed against all the people he stole from from a decade over the course of a decade so I wanted to to tell that story as well you know I had two books on I I see you've got an Eric lson book over here who the great writer of Devil in the White City and and the devil at his elbow it was on my mind and and I Eric Larson used to work at the Wall Street Journal I sent him a copy of the book and he's been very he's been very um very kind to me you know I had two books on my desk the whole time I wrote this this book that that I aspired to and they're both books about families and one was Hidden Valley Road by a guy named Bob cker who did me the honor of of writing um of of writing a blurb about the book reading an advanced cop copy but Hidden Valley Road is a story of a family with 12 children and six of them were schizophrenics and six were not and so it became this major case study in our understanding of mental illness and treatment and but it was just at its heart it's a story of of of a family and what that internal what happens the toll that you know mental illness takes on on your life so I loved that book and I had it in my mind and the other was Empire of pain um by Patrick Graden Keefe and it's about the Sackler family and the oxycotton and the way that Purdue Pharma marketed opioids and and the scourge that they are um and they knew more than they said they did and the family was very similar to the Murdo and that it was a it was a multigenerational family that that that built on what came before so those were the two books that um that I that I tried to keep as my North Star yeah no doubt but I'm I'm flattered by the I'm flattered by the comparison and a source of sadness to me is you know it's it's 450 pages I had another 100 pages but I you really had to that I'd written you really have to be mindful of the reader like what does the reader absolutely need to know you have to Value their time but among them you think there wasn't sufficient appetite for more come on but still it's it's a i looked at it on Amazon and it said like it weighs like 2.6 PBS or something which is just astonishing but um but one of the things that is a source of sadness to me that I did not get get into in the book you know is that Hampton County's one County just over the line from Savannah and there's so many characters in this story that are also characters in Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil you know the the Southern Gothic crime classic um Randolph Murdoch senior I'm sorry Jun thei elex's father um was somewhat of a white Witch Doctor Who was acquainted with um Dr buzzard and manura and these characters in the night in the garden of the good and evil The Root Doctors I just didn't even have enough time to to tell those stories fully well also it's the challenge of telling a story that isn't over uh as we look at the the state of play right now and let's talk a little bit about where this case is now it'll never be over yeah yeah you're probably right um Alec Murdoch's case taken up by the South Carolina Supreme Court uh particularly the jury tampering allegations which he believes are sufficient to Grant him a new trial let me ask you this two parts do you think he'll get a new trial do you think he deserves a new trial and I'll I'll warn you with multi-part questions I always forget one of them do I think he'll get a new trial you know I think we will it reminds me of uh another True Crime classic fatal vision with the case of Jeffrey McDonald in North Carolina where I'm from he was convicted of killing his wife and two daughters in the 70s and it's still in appeals you know 40 years later so I think that um we will be in in appeals for a very long time I don't think that ell Murdoch will ever see the light of day I mean we do have that the state has an insurance policy with his his plea and the financials he'll be in prison for the rest of his life um do I think he'll get a new trial on the homicides I think the defense makes a really a really strong argument I I saw dick harutan yesterday and I I told him as much but here's the thing um judge Clifton Newman is incredibly well regarded in the judicial Community Jean tol is a legend in the judicial community and we all know and I and I write about in the book how how chummy the the judicial system is in in South Carolina it's different than other places it's just hard for me to imagine that that the Supreme Court or any Court in South Carolina itself would overturn this verdict mhm regardless of of the merits of the case I mean what do you think but fourth Circuit Court of Appeals assuming the yeah that's doesn't Grant a man that's exactly what di carlean said the fourth circuit so we'll see um but it's a very high bar yeah well it should be it should be I mean it's a verdict and we want to you know obviously respect the fact that 12 people deliberated saw the evidence heard the testimony and reached decision um but it is it it's not lost on me I spent a long time studying the the the Murdoch men the the previous generation of of solicitors and lawyers that came before Alec jury tampering was durot it was jury tampering was the way things got done for many many years um so it is there's a certain irony in El Murdoch claiming someone tampered with a jury there is let's address those tampering allegations a little bit though we were both as were all the media that covered this trial very close to Becky Hill the former cork of court I mean she was incredibly accessible she you made our jobs very easy oh she ran the courtroom right I mean she was like the principal of the elementary school she was the person that kept everything together and a key a key you know part of the life of that proceeding and I don't know if you felt the same way I felt during the The Trial 6 weeks down there in Walterboro South Carolina I felt there were times where it felt like she was a little too cute perhaps but I never expected what we what we experienced after the trial in September of the of last year when she was accused of tampering and uh and and then in the aftermath of that those allegations seem to have some substance to them uh do you believe the standard that was set for that we were at that hearing yeah yeah do you believe the standard that Justice uh toll former Justice toll set for a new bar a new trial do you think they hit that bar you know I can remember sitting there and I think I was texting you like is this happening when you know the U one of the jurors uh said that she did feel like she was um her her opinion was swayed by Becky Hill you know I'm not a lawyer right I I I don't I don't know the case law I do think um I've read all the filings though and I like I said I make they make a good argument but I'm this I'm the same I'm I'm personally fond of Becky I think many many of us were both kraton Waters and di carpan do you remember when um di carpan said words of the effect of you know I just want to say publicly how how wonderful job she's done and's like oh I I want to say publicly what a wonderful job she's done so I think we were all um we're stunned to be where I'm stunned to be where we are with that yeah another question question let's assume either the Supreme Court or the fourth circuit throws this back to the trial court level does the state try him again oh I I can't imagine that they wouldn't really what do you think well I mean as you mentioned he's never going to breathe free air again how well but I mean that the fundamental the the reason that this case captivated national attention in my view and and you talked we we walked into the courtroom every morning and there there are people lined up out front sometimes starting at 4 in the morning and I would stop and say why are you here you know what is it about this case and nine times under 10 they said well I just don't understand how a man can kill his wife and son so of all the many felonies that that ell has been convicted of and all the violence he committed against like I mentioned moral violence against the dozens of people he stole from the core crime is the homicides of his wife and son and I just can't I it's hard for me to imagine that the state would not want to make sure he is held accountable for those crimes whatever the cost what do you think I mean what do you think well but I would argue why would you spend that kind of money I mean it would be a massive expenditure it would be a massive expenditure but for a guy who again is never going to breathe free air again in federal 40 years uh well let me ask you another question as we talk about which she's also appealing he is appealing those sentences I don't I don't think he's going to because it's cruel and unusual I know and I thought the Fed had a very good response to that uh sort of deflecting some of this theory that he's being punished for the financial crimes in the context of the murders but yeah I mean is that in any way a fair criticism would someone who committed those financial crimes absent the double homicide would they receive those same sentences well I think that's been I mean I can remember um the very first day that we were in court together back in October of 2021 when he was charged in the SAT field matter and it was expected that he was going to get bonded right I mean it was and I can remember dick harutan saying that day Bernie made off I mean people get white collar criminals make bonds White Collar criminals do not get the the book thrown at them in the way that elec Murdoch did but I you know I I I don't know I I I sat through um and I have great respect for judge KL and have known him a really long time he was he was uh Governor haj's um Council when I covered the H the the State House 20 years ago so I don't know yeah you wrote knowing why completes the story knowing why completes the story I thought that was an incredibly accurate and apt line for this Saga and it made me want to ask you this question Jen wood our research director good friends you're you're both good friends uh but she wrote a story the other day entitled Loose Ends and listed all of the different things where's the missing money where where the guns the drug connections where the guns um what happened on the side of the road all of it uh will we ever know the full story of this murder Mister no I I don't think that we will and that was that was a tough one because um you know I've been a journalist for a really long time I've been at the Wall Street Journal for 19 years I was at the state for four um you know I wanted to figure it out I wanted to figure out was where's the money where's the guns did he have help all these loose ends and at some point um in in writing a book it's different than writing a newspaper story and you the reader wants you to make sense of it help them make sense of this this tale pull it all together and so it was a source of frustration to me I was like you know I'll never know where the guns are I I really do feel like they're long gone I think the state um and I tried to I tried to pull some of those pieces together to the degree I could in the book they couldn't come out and say you know when he's hovering at the top of the driveway at alme leaving his mother's house the night of the homicides and he stops for a minute the Suburban shows he stops for a minute you know we get that GM dad at late in the game kraton's saying what he asked ell ell you know what were you doing and he's like I dropped my phone in the console really you dropped your phone on the console for a minute and there's i' I've been there I've stood in that drive way there's a little covert there I mean there it's within the realm of possibility that those guns were placed either there or back behind his his father's man cave behind the house repap and and someone someone to pick up someone to pick up and I think that is the biggest loose end did he have help in my mind and you left some some breadcrumbs on on that in the book you you wrote about uh Jason Chapman with colon County Sheriff talking about the different tire tracks MH and how he asked Alec about those different tire tracks and Alec got real quiet real fast real quiet real fast and I also think um you know Jason Chapman was one but David Owen I had I David Owen is a significant character in the book The Lead Sled agent who was on the case from the beginning and he started his career as a crimee technician that's what he did he went out and did you know what Melinda Worley did that he would take he take the evidence and he it was a sanitized Scene It was cleaned up in a way that it's hard to imagine El Murdoch could have cleaned it up on his own in the short amount of time that he had so I think there is significant questions about whether he had help well you referenced the presence on the scene in the immediate aftermath of a law enforcement officer with some known ties yeah to the family uh Greg Alexander and and and you know we know that Eddie Smith also failed a polygraph polygraphs are obviously not admissible in court but it was you know were you at were you at the house were you at 47 Mosel rad the night of June June 7th you know he he couldn't answer that question truthfully according to the examiner so I I think there's there are a number of loose ends out here yeah let's talk about David Owen you referenced him very I would say favorably in the book I went through a lot of his personal history and I I did like the way you wo different characters into the narrative so it wasn't just all about Alec it wasn't just all about the murdocks you I really try you know it's I'm I'm glad I appreciate you saying that because one of the um one of the questions from the beginning with this book when I when I I was pitching a proposal to Publishers and and we had um every person that considered it said well he's such a deeply bad person who is the reader going to pull for so in the back of my mind it was almost like um Mr Rogers where he says you know look for the helpers and in my mind there were people that were trying to unravel what El Murdoch was who trying to get to the bottom of it there are people that saw the corrupt that was inherent in in the way the family had run the system for a long time and and so I tried to put some focus on characters characters but human beings like like David Owen the sled agent kraton Waters the prosecutor and others you know Blanca Simpson no absolutely there there were there were people that um took risk to to unwind this but in assessing the investigation we set with Kathleen Parker from Washington Post spoke with her often the one and only cathol Parker during during this trial um she was very critical of sled's Investigation of David Owen in fact allegations that he may have lied to a grand jury yeah oh and and I hope I I hope I show those questions in the book too I think there were certainly questions about the investigation but I also think if you're dealing with a crime scene that's been sanitized that's been cleaned up you're you're you're starting way behind the eightball and I also tried to show that Moselle is so remote you know I went out I was out there it it took it took um Daniel Green the first offer on the scene running lights and Sirens it took him 20 minutes to get there from downtown Walterboro it's very remote so it took a long time for for the agents to get out there you know and you and I've talked about this before a crime scene is like a stove you know it's it's it's hotter as soon as it's turned off it it cools down very quickly um so there were there were they started at a disadvantage they made SE several major mistakes that we know about but I also think that that David Owen in particular um gets Credit in my mind for methodically investigating the case keeping Alec talking what what extraordinary decisions to keep him talking all summer even though he was really the only suspect you they he had three significant interviews with with ell Murdoch and and that's those were critical yeah I love the part of the book where you described the moment in that third interview third interview where he asks Alec did you do it and you and the way you phrased it was you know he thought this was going to be the last he thought that was it that was he was pulling yeah pulling the cord at that point and he he's sitting there and he says um he leans you know he they've been talking for an hour they're talking about the air conditioning being out at David's house they were you know they were just kitzing for a while and then finally he sit straight up and he said did you kill Maggie no David I did not kill my wife did you kill and it's extraordinary that to um as a person and you interview people all the time I I do and have it was an extraordinary interview to watch and I've watched him many times yeah and I thought you also I thought did an amazing job laying out the rationale for why David Owen would would make certain decisions to keep him talking you know a lot of folks were critical some of those decisions but you were like look it kept the main focus of the investigation engaged and I think you know I covered I covered um the cop beat for years and I so I covered a lot of detectives and you know it was a he his number was up so there was a there was a a call that came in he was on call he went out there but temperamentally he is not a hotthead he is very even and he's um he he he did not lose his cool when others might have even as a technique and so I think that was you know kind of it's it's it's funny I think both he and kraton Waters were temperamentally well suited to this case and this suspect this defendant he also did an amazing job I thought of describing the moments in the immediate aftermath of law enforcement arriving there of David Owen I remember the part of the book where you talked about David Owen and Laura Rutland from Calon County walking off to talk yeah about something and as they walk off Rutland is technically in charge of the investigation and as they walk back from that conversation he's in charge yeah he's in charge yeah just fascinating detail oh it the whole it was so it was so um theatrical it's so much Stranger Than Fiction and I really um I really tried to write it like the big story it was I I appreciate you saying that and there and we had um the benefit of of six weeks of of testimony lots of body cam videos lots of lots of interviews I talked to more than 200 people so I had a lot of information to build on to build out those scenes yeah and I will say for the record I don't believe David Owen would knowingly lie to a grand jury I you know we got to know him during this process as well and that does not strike me as the kind of person he is uh but similarly you wrote In the book about kraton Waters the prosecutor when he found out that the uh the blood spatter evidence was a no-go that it had been manipulated he was outraged um completely outraged and perhaps he and David Owen both were operating under the the false assumption that they had a a Smoking Gun and let's be honest that was what convicted Alec Murdoch in the court of public opinion the the blood spatter the blood spatter because it was the first time that well I think I think you were the one that reported that if I'm not mistaken yes it was our mediet let's put it that way uh but yeah I mean it was one that you know we reached out to our sources at sled at the time and said is this you know legit we reached out to those with direct knowledge of the investigation and yes but were we all LED down a primrose path on that so to speak oh I I I I I I can't I can't speak to that I do I do know personally um it was such a dynamic story and you you report it um according to your standards and your training the best you can um at the time but you'll remember you sat for an interview with the Netflix document documentary did as well it was a privilege to be involved with it I sat down with them in November of 2021 and the the documentary aired in February of 2023 a significant amount of time later the story is so changing over time there were things that I said at the time that I had reported and believed to be true and my sources had told me they were true and they didn't hold together like the bloody spatter and and and and I own that but you know it is it we do um it's the we call it the first draft of history for a reason we're telling you what we know at a point in time no that's true oh I took some flag for that I'm sure you did too we' both you know taken some grief over the course of this story oh I when I went to do you remember this when I went to Moselle um representing the media which was a huge honor and and huge responsibility I was trying to send in my pool reports from the back of this this pick I had a signal of this one place and so I was trying to send in a paragraph at a time so you know the people around the world who want to know what that trip was like could see it in real time and we were just getting ready to walk on the property and this deputy said watch your step you know it's it's a swampy area it's it's the it's a country and be on the lookout there are feral hogs out here and snakes and immediately someone tweeted at me Hogs and snakes you should feel right at home oh my God and I mean that it goes with the territory we have to have tough skin but um it was that would hurt a little bit yeah let's talk about that moment when you were selected uh as the media representative to go to the scene of this crime um you wrote about it at the time in some dispatches that were made available but I want to ask you because we sat on the outskirts of it we JY wood and I filmed a a show on the outskirts and even getting that close to it there's an aura there there's a there's an aura there presence there there's the what were your impressions when you walked to those scenes where all of this graphic violence played out you know um it's it definitely a moment that I'll never forget being out there um and every person who you know the jury was there but also you mentioned Jason Chapman Daniel Green Laura Rutland the the First Responders were the ones who were doing secur they were there too um Becky Hill was there judge Newman was there there were a number of Court personnel and I talked to a lot of the other folks that were there and they all said said the same word the air felt heavy there was a heaviness out there and um I don't I don't believe in ghosts necessarily I've never I've I've never um never really have but there was an energy that was you could it was palpable there and when we left the courthouse and you'll remember this it was a gorgeous day sunny puffy white clouds Picture Perfect Day in March and by the time we got there it dropped like 5 or 10° there was cloudy people were wondering if it was going to rain I you know I do it was an eerie Eerie place to be on a lot of levels and so quiet you remember I mean one of the things that I was trying to do was was describe sights and sounds which is surprisingly hard um and so because in in journalism we often don't we don't we don't give that type of descriptive detail and I remember sitting there thinking what can I hear right now no road noise no planes overhead nothing but birds and the birds were there was so much bird song it was it was you're in a very remote area yeah it's out there it's out there and I think you know dick caroan and Jim Griffin the defense really wanted the jurors to go so they could see how close um the shooter would have had to be particularly to Paul and and what that would be what the blowback would have been he would have been covered in in in in material and they wanted people to see that but I think what you what I sensed out there was how close Maggie and Paul were to one another how close elec would have been to them I stood where M I brought you know the the graphic that they passed out that showed the the number of feet between the distances where exactly where Maggie fell exactly where Paul fell and I stood on the spot where she had fallen and Steven grush on the court TV um videographer who was there stood where Paul had fallen and then we both walked it off and it was 12 12 Paces 12 Steps from one another you know and I think I'm you know I think you can hear it there's there's a video footage of of that visit and when I when I went to where Maggie fell I did start crying I I I it was overwhelming the sadness you know this story has revealed a lot that had been previously been hidden the historical moch family yeah uh Alex theft his behavior it's revealed a lot about a lot of people it's revealed a lot about South Carolina's system of justice I believe um what has it revealed to you and then also I want to ask that second part what has it revealed about you I I I think that's a wonderful question I actually think this case has been a crucible for a lot of people it is um you know we are and you and I've talked about this we in the the outer rings of you know the the core circus was elec Murdoch and all of his CRI vast criming for decades but Becky Becky Hill is a is a story that you know the the Greg Parker the lawsuit that's ongoing with the the beach family that's an that's and I think this case had so much attention on it was so high pressure and required um you it it was revealing of of who people are I think and um you know I'm I'm 53 I'm glad I wasn't 30 years old in trying to cover the story I'm glad I had I've written you know couple thousand stories at this point so I but I think it would have been a lot harder to keep it all together if I if I hadn't done this a long time I mean what do you think I'm interviewing you I know but I do I mean you and I go way back um yeah it was I mean where do you think it goes from here I think um these this Appeal on the the jury tampering will go on for a while I think there'll be addition you know there's additional appeals on the financials so that will work itself through um and I don't know what we'll see in terms of whether whether Becky Hill or anyone else is is is charged with any related crimes but I do think it was it was um I mean nerve-wracking to be writing a book where we didn't know the ending that was what dick harlean said to me all the time he's like I don't understand you could write a book and you don't know the ending and and and Dick and I go wayy back too I've known him I interviewed him for the first time in the year 2000 um but we we do have an in we have a first ending yeah the fact that a jury in catton County where Moselle that part of Moselle was was a jury of Alex peers found him guilty of killing his wife and son that is an ending and then the the epilogue of the book which I thought was incredibly powerful day we we were there um the the sentencing in buur when ell fleets guilty to all of the vict robbing all the victims of State said he did so essentially he pleed guilty to the motive he pled guilty to the predicate crimes that the state said he was trying to to conceal by killing his wife and son and so he admitted he's a he's a criminal and he and he went to prison for the rest of his life that's also ining so you know from here on out there will be many other layers but those two fundamental facts won't change absolutely you mentioned um the jury finding him guilty and we talked about the tampering allegations and whether or not that standard was met for granting Alec Murdoch a new trial there there's a book coming out uh not a book like yours it's uh not quite as voluminous not quite as uh not nearly as well researched I'm sure it's a a lot of folks have written books that are sort of I call them booklets they're kind of you know I don't know what you would call them not not really books not really volumes about this you know it's on Amazon right now I I hesitate to say this because then maybe people will buy it but there's some book called The Evil at his elbow Valerie Bin's version of this case or something it's like a synopsis of my which came out on T it came out on a Tuesday and this synopsis is is available on Thursday or something yeah I don't know it's weird I mean and those things some lawyers on that Val well you know it's it's it is it is strange it's um but yes you're talking about uh the egg lady jurors book that's coming outy monkey farm so one one of the things that I I I I tried to spend some time on uh in the book was varder because we said you know the took Becky Hilson out 9900 summons and so that means if you were in a country Church in Walterboro on the Sunday before Jerry selection started that Monday one in 20 people would have got you know F if there's 100 people in there five of y'all would have gotten the summons it it was that intimate and we sat there and then you remember um this couple was sitting there was a couple that was sitting together and and they had to stand up and say their Mar stat status and the guy says divorced from her it's like both of us both members guy in the book who said I'm single but I'm looking I'm single but I'm looking working that pool it was not enough mallerie Beach's first cousin stood up and said I'm mallerie be's first cousin did not get disqualified you know um the wife of one of the responding deputies yeah a fiance now wife the um the brother of the third Deputy on the scene ended up getting Seated on the jury so the connections there in that Community were were so tight so yes the juror whose book is coming out um here in about a week I believe late August um when she stood up she was very memorable and she she stood up and she I I can see her in my mind right now she put her hand on her hip kind of tossed her hair and said um I'm married in Monkey Farm which is her occupation that's where she worked and the monkey Farm everyone in YY and that part of the world knows it's a it's a animal testing facility where they they infect monkeys with disease and she worked there and did you do you remember judge Newman when he calls her back in in in Chambers to talk about whether she talked out of school about the case there's there a point where they're making small talk and he said I I bet you don't miss your day job and she goes oh no I love those monkeys it was the sweetest it honestly was very sweet but yeah her book's coming out shortly well she does in that book we we seen a brief excerpt of it prior to release she alleges that she was singled out uh for uh her alleged views on Alec Murdoch and the trial and as we reported the day of the verdicts there were those who said that she would have hung the jury that well and I think and and and Dick harutan and Jim Griffin both told me as much that that she was their best hope for a hung jury and and we watched you know I we were sat together and and I had the the benefit of being able to watch the jury either watch Alec the witness or watch the jury and see how testimony landed she laughed at all of Dick's jokes she she was just in raptured as ell talked even after some of the jurors were looking away or crossing their arms so I do think that she and and I'm I may have read some of her book as well I do think that she was she did not um I I think the defense was right that she was was leaning towards but do you ascribe any credibility to her claim that there was a conspiracy to take her off the jury because of those views you know I don't know I really don't know guess we'll find out well I it is clear that you know every and and I talk a little bit about this in the book many people on that jury knew each other beforehand Becky knew many of the people in that jury very well beforehand one of the BFFs babysat for one of the jurors when when he was a child so um you know I don't know what about this case got people so invested what about this case got people so captivated people die all the time people die violently all the time people with political connections and wealth and power die and die violently often yeah what about this case was a magnet for so many people you know I thought about it for a really long time because I had that same question and and um it took me 18 months really to to to to arrive at a at a theory and it wasn't it was a a it was a smart Federal prosecutor who who mentioned it you know it had everything right it had all seven of the deadly sins it had it had um it was set in an incredible place it it it had this duality of the family that looked perfect on the outside but there was so much underneath it had all those things that make for a compelling story but think in the end you know and and sever the people I mentioned walking up to at the courthouse several especially the women they would kind of say well I understand that that spouses kill spouses I hate it it happens every day but I understand it I can't understand how a man will kill his son and it's not just that if you think back to the Susan Smith case the you know that last big notorious South Carolina homicide she drowned her her her young boys children um parents killed children parents do not kill adult children there is just almost no press I actually went back my daughter was who was in high school was reading MC Beth and I read it with her and then I started reading like I was like is there a precedent in Shakespeare for a for a parent killing an adult child and all of Shakespeare it's only in Titus andronicus and that dude he killed like a hundred people so I kind of yeah but then but if you think about you know the Bible like all the great Stories the Bible I mean you know Abraham and Isaac can't go through doesn't have to go through within back to myth I was like what about mythology you know cronis Zeus's father Aid him ate his children to try and avoid getting usurped but he spit them back up I mean it is just such a taboo and someone said to me it's almost like it's almost like self-killing it to kill an adult child so I think that was part of it too we just couldn't quite it's it's it's so Unthinkable that I think people are just struggling to wrap their head around it did you do it do you agree that that's why there's the fixation on it yeah or part of it I mean I think it's all of it I think it's all those things I mean there's so it's like a point of critical mass and you just get to the point and also I think it was just the way that it unfolded you know you had the murders uh and then you had the buzz in the background and then you had that roadside shooting glorious saterfield you had Stephen Smith and then you had wait he stole from who H these these these the the the least of these he stole from motherless children he stole from a paraplegic deaf teenager he he and not just their money he ruined their lives you know and and that I I try to spend a significant amount of time um writing about the people that he's because because Maggie and Paul were the foremost victims but he ruined many other lives did Val the other thing I got to tell you about this book side from doing what really I thought was impossible in the story I'm honored you read it no no I I mean I know you don't read I really don't I don't I don't read books but um the other thing I thought that you did incredibly well in addition to somehow crystallizing and bringing focus on this utter chaos I thought that you were able to maintain a journalistic Detachment I thought you were able to stay out of the factionalism that has really kind of plagued this case it's turned into kind of like a a team sport team yeah we got divided into teams and and it it thank you for saying that it was important to me um it is not about me it is about this this story and it's an honor to tell it and get out of the way don't you know so so thank you for saying that um I tried to keep the frame as wide as I could and and tell it as big as I could and not be we're not supposed to be part of it we did an amazing job folks if you haven't gotten it already the devil at his elbow by Valerie Boron Val where can people go to pick this up what's the best you go to go to your go to all good books in Columbia or go or um anywhere you buy your books I'd be honored awesome all Boron thank you thank you