Did Isaac Robinson Outplay or Outsmart the World Championship Field? | Debate Night

Hello everybody welcome back into debate night we're back with our normal setup today uh or tonight I should say um everybody's in their in their own quarters we have um our guests back on and we've got some new topics we're talk all about worlds just went down here in Lynchberg so we've got some exciting topics to talk about before we get into out yeah look at the merch respect the merch respect that merch as well foundation.com heck yeah I didn't even know we made that in a tank top yeah this is sick this is sick let's go but before we get into that we have a quick word from tonight's sponsor which is manscape today the leaders in maale grooming at manscape they helping us spice up the hair care regimen on your head with something fresh and no it's not a new razor a BAL deodorant get ready for the gamechanging new scalp buffer by manscape let's break down why you need to add this to your hair care routine first things first check out these thick silicone bristles they're 100% antibacterial no more germs hitching a ride on your head the bristles gently exfoliate your scalp and the product helps reduce flaking caused by dry skin buildup one of the coolest features is that it's designed to stimulate blood flow to your hair follicles increased blood flow equals healthier hair the bristles enhanced shampoo penetration for more foam and less product use it's not just about feeling good but a better a better lather means better cleaning powder that means your shampoo lasts longer so you can save that extra cash for more important things like a new video game or Sports tickets or a sick Foundation merch uh you can also pair it with the two in-one shampoo and condition conditioner from manscape for the ultimate hair care routine these products are designed to work together giving your hair the nourishment and strength it needs and let's not forget the relaxing scalp Mass scalp massage it provides after a long day using this feels like a mini Spot Treatment it's a great way to unwind while taking care of your scalp simply put the scalp buffer is your scalp's secret weapon if you want to check this out and take your scalp from Zero to Hero with the scalp buffer you can get 20% off plus free shipping with code debate night manscape.com that's 20% off plus free shipping with code debate night manscape.com let's get to our uh our say something real quick say something real quick I'm doing like a huge remodel situation we're basically turning this room into like the video room and then we're turning another room into like the shipping room so that way they're like separate from one another and also for like sh room for podcast and whatnot so I'm slowly kind of working it out I'm going through everything guess what I found I found my manscape box I had Miss I guess I just forgot where I put it and I found it today and I was very excited it was very very nice uh surprise for me so I'll be using that probably tomorrow Kelsey was very excited about it shout out beard is getting uh pretty long yeah there go beard Hydra Pro is goated absolutely goated um all right well Brody's here and he is in his room that may be changing looks I guess soon I mean it looks different there I mean there's like CS over there yeah there's like a I mean look over here there's nothing anymore like a lot of space room right yeah I mean now now there's a little bit of frisbee the other room's a lot more Frisbee now too so we're just you know we're just changing it up gota gota adapt of of course so okay it is what it is um do you want me to do my like man was waiting for you people gota man people man people well I mean I first a different kind of episode last week so that might not be I but I will say this like people really liked it um I don't know if it was because the quality was so good and the audio and you got syus doing all the ones and twos in the back uh but people really did enjoy it top comment I see here 56 upvotes loved hearing Brody call out people who complain about the amount of walking in uh re relation to disc golf one of the reasons I love D disc golf is that it's like hiking with an extra bonus um and then another one was got to give credit where credit is D the three guys Brody said would flourish at the two courses at Worlds were Isaac ab and Simon they are tied for first tied for first and six after round one yeah and they all finished I think in the top 15 I was gonna say main shout out to Brody because you named cat merch as a dark horse performer and then she almost won oh that would have been electric right that was yeah I was I also named Holland Hanley was going to um what what what we call it we said we had someone that was like going to outperform and then underperform underperform and by the end of the tournament yeah there you go I mean it was one of the under performances of a final round we've realistically if you take away your first round then that whole tournament would be an underperformance absolutely um anyways speaking of over performers Hunter's here uh well speaking of underperformers we got to shout out Robbie C who last week picked both winners as his underperformers all time worst takes to ever come out of the channel I think impressive is very hard to do but hey you know he he was on the right track he just kind of took a wrong turn at some point so he's anti- Isaac he is he thinks Isaac's not good at disc off for some reason he can't think that anymore I think he still doesn't think it it's his backhand only man it gets I'm I'm here here's what I'm gonna say I am officially just an Isaac Robinson fan Isaac Robinson's my favorite player I think I'm locked in I loved what I saw this week Hunter's new favorite player just dropped yeah yeah new new drop of the Year Isaac Robinson in honor of him I'm gonna putt with pa3 for the rest of the year nope dang it nope still in the bang Revere um Gary's back back with the bricks love it right back with the bricks covering a little bit from this past weekend because uh I joined up with my buddy over at apple pie disc golf when we were Bob us video where we had to eat a dozen donuts while playing around at this golf oh that sounds awesome we had a lot of confidence and that confidence was squashed pretty quickly once we started hitting Donuts seven and eight and just did you each eat a dozen yeah so we we did doubles we did Best Shot doubles and each doubles partner had their own 12 donuts wait you had to eat one by the end of the round a whole dozen yourself before the round was over guys this is super easy what are we talking about here get out of your mind guys what are we talking about here what are we I mean are you doing like are you doing like cream and jelly or you glaze no no no you couldn't just pick glazed or sugar raised in fact six of your doughnuts were selected by your opponents so that's tough that's tough that's really tough jelly filled freaking powder sugar donuts donuts I that's the easiest challenge of all time that's so F this is from the person who was telling Connor that he couldn't eat 12 a 12pack of tacos but you think you can do 12 donuts 12 donuts seems way harder 12 pack of tacos and one sitting yeah I don't Conor doesn't eat that much no you said you couldn't do it I thought no he saw he said it was like impossible because you said one of your competitive eating friends couldn't even do it uh well he did he did a Doritos Locos Tacos Supreme which is very challenging I think the donut one donut are like half air 50% of a Donut's air not a cake 90% of a tree is air but you still get slapped by them these were Dunkin Donuts donuts we went to a local donut shop these were Donuts yeah that's yeah that's brutal I can't get through two wandering Donuts locally before I start feeling bloated I I mean that's tough all right all right bro's coming up we're doing the donut people in the chat will let me know that yeah that you're delusional Hunter saying that this is a brutal challenge to eat a dozen donuts while playing disc golf that sounds like a beautiful Sunday morning okay let's just leave it at that I think I think we'll have Brody come up here we'll do a donut I thought it was a dut every hole like you couldn't you couldn't go into the next hole until you completed a dut and it was the and it was the first to complete 18 holes that would be an electric video well this isn't donut night it is debate night although might be exting I want some donuts now what the heck I do want some donuts yeah um Lucas is here as well joining us what's your favorite donut Lucas oh man I'm actually not a big donut fan but I think I yeah I know I think if I had to pick one it might be like the cookies and cream specialty from crispy one yeah okay okay fair enough I get behind that dang not a big doughnut guy I'm a big powdered sugar donut guy wait do you know like cake like cake cake to eat cake birthday cake yeah I'm just not a big dessert person generally wow you probably like salmon yeah EX you got him you got him he loves salmon prob like salmon if you don't like dessert I bet you love your salmon he does he does okay let's get into our first topic uh get away from this um so this topic is kind of uh it's kind of broad so I'm going to start your timer after 30 seconds so you'll have a total of two minutes um but I just want to know what were your thoughts on Ivy Hill from a course design perspective what were its strengths of and weaknesses and I I'm want to get a rating from 1 to 10 as well because I think there was a lot of mixed opinions on this course so I just want to hear the breakdowns I think it'll be especially interesting uh to hear Gary and and Lucas because they were not at the course although um Lucas has been there before so um yeah let's let's hear what we've got here Brody what do you think yeah I mean I thought it was I thought it was kind of interesting to hear do that can you hear me yeah you're good Sal just gave me the two-minute time that's all I was saying I'm go ahead oh oh that's fine Styles is goated that's all oh okay um yeah I thought it was interesting seeing as much backlash from the players after the fact or during the tournament I was a little surprised by that obviously some of the FP players were a little upset with some of the distance that they we talked about that last week um but you know looking at it objectively I mean I think the design of the course was great I think one of the things that did very well is it made it to where you didn't really think that you're on a golf course I think that is a very challenging thing to do um we play courses that are on golf courses where it's very apparent that were playing disc golf on a golf course here I think they did a good job of not having it to where we're playing next to a bunch of te's or bunch to next a bunch of greens um or throwing over greens or you know the sand traps were used in a way where it actually seemed like it it made sense versus uh just being there and we just happened to put a basket there uh with that being said I think the the biggest weaknesses of the course there were several holes where a out- of bounds shot or a bad shot equated to a stroke and potentially Two Strokes where that same mistake on other holes you were kind of almost rewarded for it and to me I think that is something in disc golf that needs to be removed I think a bad shot on any hole needs to be the same so what I mean by that well you know you look at whole 17 for example if you throw in the water on hole 17 you have a nice little Drop Zone chip over whatever right then you go to another par three which is like uh that would be one two three four six I believe it was the downhill one yeah that one you throw a shot you could be 100 feet down the hill tapping par uh the other one was like 14 I want to say on the back nine the really long uh par three downhill that was had Hazard on the left OB on the right was it 12 and then Obie behind same thing you go OB long you've got like a 20-footer I'm not a huge fan am I out of time already oh gez okay well one out of 10 let's hear it h one out of 10 uh I give it like an 8.5 okay okay I do agree with you I think that the um the inconsistencies in the those par 3es and and that's all was risk reward was that was an interesting Des design choice I should say uh Hunter what do you got well I think one of the the most important parts of the course design that I think really was did great here was the thought of spectator experience um because with how many tickets and stuff were being sold there was a lot of the property that like could have been used differently um but it would have resulted in worse viewer viewing experience and I definitely felt like there was a lot of thought into where are spectators going to go where you know pretty much the entire Galler is going to be able to see every shot and that's what made it like from a fan perspective if you were on the grounds it was better than New London it just was like you got to your experience out there was just World different from New London um now course design when it comes to playing I think this course did a lot of great things and I think it had a few flaws that upset people to where they're just being really loud about it some of the strengths is I really like the way it made players think there wasn't very many holes where you could just Chuck a disc down there um it baited players into some more risky plays where they were attacking on certain greens and stuff that there was a lot of risk there with not a lot of reward but players getting baited into it um it also didn't ask a lot of players to get to The Landing zones it instead asked a lot of players to approach those Landing zones with touch and on certain angles because you could just throw a spy Kaiser in a lot of times it was just skipping OB versus we saw Isaac throwing a lot of Flippy stuff or stuff where it was Landing a lot softer and that's why he was able to slice and dice this course up weaknesses I think there was just greens that were a little too gim at times Brody brought up whole you know 17 whole uh six whole 14 there was a lot of that where I think greens were just a bit too much um and it didn't fully uh didn't fully capitalize on what the property had out there I think but the the big key to me was just the four five and six stretch I think those three holes in a row neither none of them were great holes five I think was fine but I think being bookended with four and six which really a lot of players didn't like I think that led to that stretch you kind of got off and half of the first third of the course wasn't great which put a bad taste in people's mouth which then led to them thinking I'm not going to like this course regardless of what what rest feeds me one out of 10 one to 10 rating I'm going with a 8.2 oh oh getting even more specific I like it um all right so now we've got two guys who were not on the site for worlds but obviously watch closely so curious to hear your opinions Gary what did you think of the course yeah I mean it's it's the world so everyone's going to have their you unique opinion about stuff um as a venue it was it was Stellar but you know let's talk about the course itself um as a spectator watching from home from a spectating perspective uh over the Internet I'd give the course a seven I was a little worried it was going to come off like another Emporia which is probably the only event you can fall asleep on wake up and still think you're on the same hole um but the holes out there were definitely Dynamic enough that it was it was really super entertaining and I felt like with uh the setup of 14 through 18 there was no lead that was ever going to be truly safe as a player I think the course is probably an eight um I'll give it an 8.06 to get even more granular um but some some great holes had some unique shot shapes and I felt like it had a combination of like required power and angle control um that you had to have and the course definitely made the top Pros consider going for par in some cases which is kind of unique and the course beat up the field if you counted them all up there were a combined 4,36 OB Strokes between both Fields across the week wow um and I know that there are several holes that definitely needed some adjustments like we mentioned some already like hole six needs less of a bailout with the OB behind the basket 14 had the uh the green issue where I don't mind the whole design but maybe place the basket on a part of the hill where it's just grass or move it back and make it a par five because there are holes on tour that have angled sideways greens they just utilize a more uniform Landing space for them and 17 could use some some trimming of the trees or or you know a landing zone change I think one of the things that we're not talking about a lot that I really lik that came from Aaron gosage was he talked about the use of Drop Zones out there aside from Whole 17 in most of the cases the Drop Zones were placed in spots where it would be the worst inbounds position you could have on The Fairway so it didn't reward players um who had bad shots it actually punished them with tougher positions and I like the use of Hazard areas bringing players to decide where they wanted to miss if they were going to miss but at the end of the day it's the first time that the course is had on been on stage like this I think a 10 out of 10 course exists out there and it was a great ju toos between New London for testing the entire skill set of the players yeah yeah definitely some um some interesting uses of the hazard as well like you mentioned I thought that was creative um Lucas wrap it up for us what you think of Ivy Hills as a course yeah as Trevor mentioned I have played there before so I do have a little bit of on-site perspective some things changed since I was there um but I do definitely like what Gary said about it challenging being a great compliment to New London overall I think I'm going to give this course a 7.8 out of 10 it has some really great holes and some definite pluses bonuses built in but it also had some problems as well so some of the strengths I really like that it requires decision making and puts the onus on the second shot more than the drive I think that's something that disc golf has been lacking in the past if you throw a better than average drive on some holes the hole is basically over because the approach is essentially assured I think of a course like Idle Wild with something like that um the new course at European open this year as well as the Gorge at North Cove which was where the Blue Ridge classic was played or the blue rid Championship was played last year are two great examples of that new emphasis on that course design aspect um I think also it was a very cerebral course that challenged distance control and angle control off the te even though the t- shots as I think someone else already mentioned even though the t- shots might have been somewhat boring it didn't come off on camera how important it was to control the angle at which was coming in if you're throwing a Hiser it's going to skip OB if you land more flat or more low like a Calvin or an Isaac might throw there was a better chance it was going to stay in a prime position and also avoid skipping OB as much um I think it rewarded aggressive shots off the te and made the shorter made approach shots shorter easier and less technical if you got more aggressive and then it exe when you executed that uh correctly and if you didn't then you got punished by going OB um I also really like the island holes where Miss had to be considered on all of them in terms of Optics I thought it was really pretty I think the weaknesses have already been mentioned uh forer obviously need some work I think there was also a little bit too much of a premium on flat to high your shots off the te I counted up 11 or 12 out of 18 holes that's what you were throwing off the te as the best option yeah yeah I think it was a curious one to break down honestly I I was really undecided on the course um a lot of the week I I do think that at the end of the day what most people will agree was was it was a solid course with a few pretty notable bad holes that just need some changes because I think that that I think those stuck out like sore thumbs and maybe overshadowed some of the slightly above average holes so curious to see if um if when disc golf eventually makes its way back to that property if they make those changes or if they just kind of double down because one I was say one additional thing um I mean I think New London does a great job of of testing you know where you step up to the hole and we all know the right throw is a forehand and there's some holes like 16 at New London like you cannot get a backhand to the basket it's it's impossible so um I I think New London has some good forehand holes uh Ivy there was not a single hole that required a forehand off the te which is obviously a lot harder to do when you're out in the open for sure uh but there's definitely things you can do with mandoos or designing the Fairway in a way to where forehand makes a lot of sense um it that was the only thing is like I I would have liked to have seen a little bit more of that of where it's like hey this is this is an 80% forehand hole you can throw a backhand but a forehand is way better and I don't think other than uh 13 the hole that we talked about earlier that was the only hole that a forehand really made a little bit more of an advantage but not even that much even 18 you think 18's a perfect turnover back end yeah a good bit of room for the turn yeah there really wasn't any specific the C it had the course did have quite a few unique holes I feel like um even they had unique holes for sure there were yeah there were I think a lot of risks taken on that design and I think some paid off for and and some people loved and others just didn't but uh yeah I think there's definitely some promise there and a lot of Pros a lot of Pros enjoyed it as well it definitely wasn't just like a majority hated course at all um all go ahead one of the cool things I just want to mention I think more so than I've ever experienced with worlds this was definitely a weekend or a week of true disc golf content lovers dreams because how many times before have we seen touring Pros go to two courses they've never played before and have to do a lot of the preparation it was great to get to listen to so many videos of people breaking down the courses where it's not like we're going to this place and uh this year they changed the basket location on one hole and they expanded the OB on the other hole like yeah it was so cool to see Pros break down to new courses to them it it it is really fun watching Pros assess a a property especially when you know it already um but it would be cool to see the tour make an effort to try and include a new uh a tournament that features new courses every year because that is that is so different because you're right you know you go back to the same course like well I know what the play is here instead of getting all these different perspec Ives and strategies on maybe the same hole or maybe seeing a player change their strategy after a few holes instead of having it all locked in before the tournament and just being like okay how can I execute this um so yeah there's definitely a lot to discuss comment down below what you thought of Ivy Hills of course and what you thought the strengths and weaknesses were I was surprised they didn't change any of the baskets being a Nate heinold designed course you know he started messing around with ledstone I think there was three or four baskets Chang throughout ledstone not a single basket change throughout the entire tournament I found that very interesting yeah I think that that could have that could have added a little bit more yeah definitely would be interesting to see that in the in the future there's a lot of places they could have they could have made some uh alternate pins it might have been a a logic of like we already have two courses would players complain that like oh now I have to learn a third course even though you're just changing your approach shot slightly but yeah it all depends on what you're doing with the alternate pins like yeah are you really changing the shot or is it just like this landing area is easier or by changing the uh pins you can really make it like not really a backhand approach sh it's more of a forehand this day yeah um or maybe 14 you put the basket at the bottom of the hill and uh don't make them throw up there at once that was crazy they didn't put any mulch or anything on that that was wild I was I was shocked that they didn't take any of our feedback on that hole Yeah Yeah I was too they were like hey let's just throw it at rocks and see what happens see what happens roll the dice um all right so Isaac Robinson obviously uh took it down he is now a two-time back-to-back world champion um special emphasis on that second one because there's not many players who have done it now obviously we use Hall of Famer as a pretty loose term here the Disc Golf Hall of Fame isn't something super solidified so I want you to kind of perceive that term as you would think of it however it fits uh your own agenda and how you would consider a Hall of Famer uh valid but my question here is just simply is Isaac Robinson in Hall of Famer if he retires tomorrow why or why not is has he done enough already in his young career and your mind to be a Hall of Famer for what you think that should be um Hunter what do you think uh you know this was tough because I I read the question and my gut reaction immediately said no like this is his career's too young like he's got more to prove um because we haven't seen him consistently like win throughout a season like we're seeing out a Ganon type thing um because like a Ganon Burr I feel like if he were to retire yeah I think I think he's done it because like what he's do doing this year is like making history but then I did some Googling because I wanted to verify am I thinking the right way and I changed my mind um the main stat that changed my mind is he now has three major titles and the list of players who have as many or more than him is just so few players and they're all Hall of Famers that it's like and the people he's beating on this list are also in my mind a lot of them are Hall of Famers so I immediately was like there's no way the guy can be on this list um the the list includes Ken clo Paul MC Beth Dave felberg Ricky Waki Barry Schultz Nate Doss will schrick Avery Jenkins and Isaac Robinson are the only players that have three or more Majors um so that is a list it's like those are pretty much all you know Hall of Famers in my mind and not to even mention the fact that he's the only other like the people that have went backto back World Championships are just Ken Kimo Barry Schultz Ricky Paul and Isaac Robinson and like if you're on a list with those guys for a something as prestigious as this um I I don't see how you're not a Hall of Famer so I I think that he's going to end up with a like for sure Hall of Fame career because I think he's got a lot more majors and Pro Tour wins in him but I think even if he were to retire today uh yeah I think he's in so what other Majors did Avery Jenkins Darkhorse win other than that world title just did he win a couple European ones I'm just curious I would imagine this is just udis they update it very regular I mean they even have Ganon on here oh Japan yeah I was gonna say it had to be some weird ones I just searched um the udis one like they already moved Isaac over to three they up Australian one too yeah I just knew it had to be some weird some weird ones because definitely he won The Players cup wherever that was at I don't know where the Players Cup was at was in that was a yeah that was a major that existed one time I think yeah disc golf history will always be complex because all those Majors then we'll have another one next year basically um all right Gary do you agree as is the uh do the accomplishments outweigh the longevity for for you you know I'm not a fan of these questions because it's not like disc golf has a really well super fleshed out hall of fame um I don't think there's a world outside of an insane uh injury or something that would see him retire I mean if he did is he gonna be the Derrick Rose the PDGA but all that being said of course he would be in the Hall of Fame eventually he's won three majors and two of them are World Championships so do I think he's a first ballot kind of guy I don't know but let's run down the list of requirements you know does he have a favorable standing and honorable reputation in the community of dis golf check does he exhibit Integrity character and sportsmanship check uh is he a competitor who's produced a substantial body of success check he is he has 15 years of active disc golf participation uh oh well you know if I guess he'll need a volunteer or TD for a year or two but'll get there and is he at least 45 years of age double uh oh so back to the question I guess um Isaac can I call you Isaac uh yes would you be in the Hall of Fame yeah in like 21 years so you best keep playing buddy and don't let the haters try to retire you too soon and earlier than you want to so I think we have to stop asking questions like uh he's 24 years old do I think that if he keeps going is he gonna get in the Hall of Fame yeah probably for sure but I I'm tired of asking and answering questions about Hall of Famers of 24 year olds uh things you have to be 45 to be uh US president and pdj Hall of Fame I love I love their requirements it cracks me up um yeah uh Lucas what what is your what is your take on the Hall of Fame argument is it is it too soon to even have an opinion no I don't think so I knew it it's gonna be tough to go after Gary and Hunter here because uh all the things they mentioned are things I had written down in my notes that he's not 45 years old he hasn't had 15 years this is his 14th year in the PDGA so on technicality Foundation rules he would not be in the Hall of Fame uh but if you look at the majors he's won three Majors he would definitely be in the Hall of Fame because there's only been nine players as Hunter mentioned to go to have three or more majors and he's one of only five to go back toback in World Championships all points that these guys have already made I think the biggest Point I've seen online combating the fact that Isaac should be in the Hall of Fame is this resort to Worlds is there's too much emphasis on worlds and I think that's just really shortsighted when you look at what else he's done he won ID of wild in 2022 an event that uh obviously it's not produced a winner um in more than one sorry that a player hasn't won it more than once ever so you obvious have to be on your game that weekend he's won in three consecutive seasons on the pro tour 2022 2023 2024 I think that's an impressive stat as well given the out Talent has continued to increase and he's won in the weekend where everyone is trying to play their best disc golf in a season where he's not playing his best so far so I think that any other uh conclusion other than he's a shuing for the Hall of Fame if he retires tomorrow uh is just not looking his full body of work and is looking at World Championships uh too much because he's done other things okay okay fair enough fair enough um all right Brody wrap it up what do you what do you think is would Isaac be in the Hall of Fame seems like everybody else kind of is saying the the accomplishments are there that outweighs everything else yeah I think we all agree that the answer is yes but I was actually surprised none of them brought up any of the points that I'm about to bring up which is the fact that in the past worlds used to be seven nine days like long rounds and when you're the best of the field it's really easy to win when you have you know if you I mean look at who's going to be probably the best player this year I mean who Isaac could make a push for it now but uh it's probably GNA be Ganon right if you look at a season long it's the longer you stretch out these tournaments the best player is going to win majority of the time so if you shrink it down it adds in the flakiness of someone just getting super hot and having one incredible round or two incredible rounds and he's been able to do backto back with five rounds being able to win both which is very impressive and then you look at the courses that he's done it on that's the other thing no one's really mentioning the courses he did it at a you know putter mid course up in GMC basically woods and open and then now down here which a much longer putter would uh a much longer mid to Fairway would open course he did it at both locations um that is something that happens a lot in golf there are major winners that people are like ah yeah but he won it at that course that doesn't really count I don't think you can do that with Isaac and you would be crazy to say winning it back to back in this era that Isaac did that is more challenging than any of the other people that one back toback where they only had to beat a handful of people yeah yeah I I mean definitely the the weight of his accomplishments is is pretty um pretty apparent I think that it's always tough to assess like the Hall of Fame arguments I think are always really tough just because you have to basically decide how much do I care about a player's body of work over a long period of time versus what they accomplish like for instance if a player hypothetically came in in their rookie year and won all four majors and then never played another season like is that a Hall of Fame career you know what what defines that I think every voting panel or whatever is going to kind of decide what that means and and Gary you're right since it's not fleshed out it's really hard for us to compare to a standard at all um we're kind of just have to go from our guts but I think um considering how small the list is right now it does make it easier to say right now now if if Isaac got to the end of his career 15 years from now and still had three majors and now all of a sudden the list of people with three Majors or more is much larger maybe it's a different uh different argument but at this point yeah there's just not a lot of players who have accomplished that in such a short I would be I'd be curious if the question was flipped instead of saying he retires tomorrow if the question was he plays another 20 years and his accolades stay the same like he never gets another I I think then you have an argument of maybe he's not because maybe well he won those three so early and the re exactly retiring tomorrow I think almost helps him because it's like well what could have been you know what I'm saying yeah yeah yeah fair that is a good point that is a good point yeah I don't it'll be um yeah Rick's gonna face that somewhat luckily Rick's been dominant on the protour side to where he's like he's a he's a shoe in but when it comes to his legacy and being known as one of the greatest of all time the longer he goes without a major win the more that gets tainted yeah yeah absolutely the more we ask this question the more likely it is one of these times someone will retire after they win a major and it's true you gota just keep asking it just prank Gary on every time somebody is gonna disappear this is only the second time we've ever asked that question Gary so how about you back off Lista don't make me I'll go back retire dude I'll go I'll go rewatch every single episode retire I'm pretty sure I only ever wrote it about Rick and I think Ganon I think gon got all right that's a partyin what happens if Calvin reti I think we did it four times it's also the PDGA Hall of Fame who cares we also did have a just generic PDGA Hall of Fame question you love the Hall of Fame Trev what can I say play it's just me I'm digging I'm digging into the barrel man I'm digging in find find the topics yeah um all right well we're gonna get into um we're gonna talk about the FBO division because the FBO division had um quite an interesting tournament particularly the last round it was uh hunter called it a hot potato situation um as far as the leaders were concerned so um the lead was continually changing hands and multiple players during that final round were squandering chances so I just want to know with this FP division because we've see this a number of times but it's at Worlds it was really visible do you feel like the bad play takes some of the enjoyment out of the event takes maybe some of the prestige out of the win or does the errant Play Just create a different form of ENT mment and unpredictability does it does it actually make it a good watch how how do you kind of process uh that Foo tournament and how it all went down uh Gary what are your thoughts yeah I think we can all agree that we'd like to see high level play and with Kristen in the field we've gotten kind of used to high level play in a major situation however I have said it before on a debate Night episode I'll say it again we all like to look at the carfire on the side of the road when we drive by and watching professional struggle is its own type of entertainment that final card finished together at plus n if you add up the scores of the next 23 competitors they still finish better than the the top four um some of the worst play came from them and they were plus 16 on holes 12 through 18 that final round and and listen I'll admit as enjoyable as that was after the fourth airball from inside 20 feet I was getting a little bit annoyed um because it's hard to watch a top player in the world struggle with those types of putts and listen before all of you out there go on your keyboard and type she's still much better than you are stop and realize that a an opinion and two top level Pros have higher standards and expectations to fill um but the constant lead changes might actually not be better than you though Gary maybe the constant lead changes were were were entertaining and I I think that the bad shots also made the really good ones stand out which was great I wanted to see cat hold it down um but she didn't it was great seeing her push through it in rounds three and four I'd love to see Holland finish strong she didn't I wanted Kristen to rage from the Chase card but she didn't um at the end it just came down to who would hold it to together the best and that's evina holes 13 through 15 sealed the deal for her and maybe the secret was having a stable voice on the bag with James Proctor but the best moment for me was when she addressed her grandparents directly in the post-run interview and I gotta say huge congrats to Evelyn on the win uh yeah that that sat of the 23 competitors behind um not being as far over part that's that's crazy that's that's a crazy pull right there um yeah wow Lucas what did you what did you think of how the FP division shook out there in that final round yeah I kind of how Gary took it like from a group perspective I went more on an individual's perspective so I think that could be a good um whatever the word is definitely I think it took away from the excitement you want the best events of the year to be the most exciting nail biting event of the year and not a war of attrition or a contest of who can mess up the least in the last most important stretch of holes unfortunately I think it turned into a bit of a crap shoot the last seven holes for the three players in contention evina shot even in the final seven holes including the layup on eight team so it's not like she made a huge push at the end to claim victory she survived and did what it was necessary to win so I don't want to take away from her winning because she did in fact do what she needed to do and uh won at the end uh it's just not as exciting from a fan perspective next cat merch was plus four in that same stretch if she shoots even through that she wins by two two over and she realistically has a shot at a playoff finally Holland was plus eight in that stretch unfortunately just a wholesale collapse from her if she shoots plus two in that stretch she ties evina even she once again wins by two even more than the big picture score though is how demoralizing it must be to lose to someone putting just over 58% from c1x in the final round and whose longest made to putt in the final was 29 feet I think it takes away from How well evina was getting off the tea and unfortunately that's all people will be talking about and that's all they should be talking about anytime you come away from a golf or disc golf tournament and your takeway is putting doesn't really matter that much it's really tough to see yeah yeah definitely not something uh not something you expect to see out there but that was certainly the case um Brody what what are your takeaways well I'll say putting doesn't matter right now in the fpo with the the players that are currently in the field um I think I think also when you start adding a lot of OB and you start making you know challenging shots off the te then it also reduces how important putting was uh you look at some of the top Putters on the mo side you know they're not moving up the leaderboards nearly as much as we see in other tournaments where we see some of the top Putters in the top 10 top 20 simply because it just turns out to everyone's good throw it inside of circle two it's just who can make the putts um here there was a lot more and which I think is what disc golf should be there's a lot more emphasis on throwing good shots and making the putts um what I'll say about this though like I'm going be honest like there need there's a contrast to it right like I like watching college football and college basketball because you get to see people make mistakes and you get to see crazy drama and all that and then you also see incredible plays as well but then there also is the professional side of where we can turn and watch all those like dumb mistakes that we see in college like those don't really happen anymore in the NFL or in the NBA um but what we do sometimes see is players you know struggle with the pressure the problem that we saw here is like I I mentioned it last week Hollands forehand has caused problems in the past it caused a lot of issues in that final round evina it's not like she just all a sudden wasn't able to make a putt and was trying to battle that final round of like how can I make a putt like she couldn't make a putt all all week yeah she hasn't been able to make a part all year so it's not like it's all of a sudden like this new thing of where it's this new drama that we're all like locked in being like holy crap like that's why I was locked in with Kristen is like wow Kristen's playing terrible like what's going on yeah like this isn't normal like that is evina she throws the disc top top five and one is one of the worst Putters on tour yeah that is her game yeah no that's valid like if you're right if it was new if it was something unexpected it would probably be perceived a bit different yeah of course I I totally can get that um Hunter what's your perspective on the foo the Finish down the stretch there well I mean the original question was do you feel like the bad play took some of the enjoyment out of the event and as the event as a whole we at least got moments of greatness right we got that 10 under round from Holland Hanley that was incredible we got you know different battles coming up you had the question of will Kristen actually be able to come back because even going into like round four I'm like she's just got to play decent and she's in this thing uh the final round though yeah it took it took all the enjoyment out of it for me look I can only get so much enjoyment from from the mist putts and the I now have the lead let me hand it back to you um and we see it too often like and I don't really know what it points to I don't like it just is it's it's very frustrating to me because you have a sport that on the N side we're watching Isaac Robinson during this tournament just be a master of precision and every time he slips up there's someone ready to run through that door and you feel this pressure of he better not slip up because if he does it's getting ripped from him then on the flip side the exact same tournament we have players who are just literally being like can someone please take this from me I don't want the lead anymore who wants it please please please take it and everyone's like whoa whoa I don't want that gross e who would want that no no you know what I'm gonna shoot myself off the podium like I it was it was I don't know I was just very ticked off watching it because like the foo field needs like seven C tars and we had zero of them this past weekend Kristen was nowhere to be found luckily she came in third to kind of save her namesake but she fell into third thanks to Holland um so I don't know I was very frustrated and it did take the enjoyment out of the final round for me yes dang Hunter Hunter passionate about it yeah I I'm kind of yeah I'm kind of the same way where it's like I you you you know Gary's right like when you it's like the train wreck right you see it and like you have to watch it and there is some level of entertainment but as like a fan of the game and somebody who wants to see the game thriving and be and look to a certain standard you have to be a little bummed out like you'd rather you just would rather see players um challenging each other pushing each other down the stretch um you know it's it's one thing to have the collapse where it's like oh we weren't gonna have a close final round now the final round is goingon to be close but when it happens enough times it's like all right um at some point somebody needs to It's Like on it's like on Tik Tok you you scroll and you get that first train wreck and you're like holy cow that was Electric next thing you know your whole algorithms train wrex they don't have the same Pizzazz the FPL algorithm man it's got to be fixed the other additional issue was the conditions this past week were perfect yeah and so people watching know how easy it is to make a 20f footer or to make a 15f footer people also know how easy it is to throw an upshot from 200 feet away they know like the level of difficulty that is and when you're watching people that are supposed to be the best in the world struggle at doing that and it's not just like one person it's like everyone is struggling to do that it really starts like you start like having these thoughts in your head like wait what's going on here yeah whereas if the conditions were really really tough then it would be different like everyone's just trying to hold on you're just trying to limp through the Finish Line uh but hunter was right like it really looked like no one really actually wanted to win yeah I'll say this had the win kicked up out there I mean there's no telling what we we would have seen cuz like there was already a plethora of mistakes being made it could have got real interesting I think it would have because I feel like had the win picked up we probably would have seen evina as the champion still but it would have made it feel like Brody's right in that if there's huge gusts of win a Miss 20f footer all of a sudden doesn't feel nearly as jaw-dropping no like it's impossible to putt right now it probably would have felt the same it just like it probably would have looked the same but it would have felt a lot better cuz there would have at least been like holy cow I mean that flag was just she was putting into a 40 mph headwind no one's making that thing versus the flag's dead everyone's out there sweating because there's no wind to be found and it's just like I don't know I don't know yeah it's it's clear it's clearly a mental thing and I think the the oh yeah signature moment that points to that is that we were talking about it before the show when evina laid up that putt on 18 and it stood up for a second even though I don't think any of us thought it was going to roll away to Infinity she looked white-faced like oh my word am I going to have to do anything which just kind of shows in the moment that like fragility mentally there so it's like we need we need more FP and I'm not saying that all fpo players don't have that killer mindset but you're right we need more of that just Stone Cold killer mentality um yeah I mean there's definitely definitely some form things there that aren't going to produce the best results with just the way she putts uh but if you look at people like Simon um or you look at uh Isaac another one too their putting style it's very much like if they're off and their confidence kind of goes down their putting goes way way down real quick yeah uh but it doesn't like fall off the map of where they're not able to make a 15-footer right and so that I think is the big difference is when people are struggling at putting they still are making 15f Footers 20f Footers 25f Footers it's just they're no longer making 40% or 30% from Circle two yeah yeah it's um it's just yeah it's been an interesting thing just continually as we uh continue to watch the FP division sometime some events you you definitely are getting more of a feel of like okay we've got some players who are legit and like Holland man you watch her round one like that's a player who's in complete control and like looked like Head and Shoulders Above the Rest of the field but I think the the pressure especially just was really really crushing them down at the end there well well hopefully this ends up being a turning point for a lot of players because there's got to be a solid 8 to 10 maybe even 12 players that are sick to themselves right now thinking if I like that tournament was mine like are you kidding me all I had to do was average four under round and I'm a world champion like yeah that turn like I should be able to do that in my sleep Kristen's one of them Holland's one of them all I had to do is not blow up that final round cat merch like there's got to be a number of players that are looking at that and hopefully looking at themselves in the mirror being like this offseason that all changes like there's probably a number of players that aren't even on tour watching that being like being like wait I can be a world champion and never make a putt yeah I well talk about another advantage of having uh tournaments at courses players aren't familiar with is you don't know what the good scores are like it's it's at least a little easier to predict the future if you're like well last year this is what won out here in these conditions um yeah no to br's point there probably is um yeah there probably some people that were watching at home like huh interesting how much did evina win for that 17 grand 1,000 yeah like I'm sure there's some people that are making $60,000 $40,000 a year being like hm I'm not that bad at this golf I maybe I should give that a try yeah we'll never know maybe I'm closer than I thought I was you know maybe they're having those thoughts yeah yeah um all right so we're going to talk one more topic about Isaac here so Isaac uh definitely won the tournament in in in a fashion that makes sense for his game but I think it was um you know we've seen him play the safety the safety strategy before but this one it seemed really extreme to me like he was playing it very very safe especially down the stretch so I wanted to ask do you think Isaac's Safety First strategy being so effective points to a course that was too difficult or unpredictable and choked out the field and didn't maybe allow for an aggressive play to be uh a really big benefit or would you be okay with this type of strategy working on a regular basis and did other players just fail to adapt basically I'm saying obviously this the the safe strategy is what it is but did it get to a point where there was not enough reward at all for the aggressive play and playing aggressive on this course was just going to punish you no matter what like what how do you feel like that balanced out Lucas what do you think so I really think that again this is going back to like focusing on just a few holes I I think Isaac like I don't even think he really had a safety first strategy if you look at hole two at New London he had a birdie look he should have bu the hole both times and that's a hole that a lot of people are playing for four I think in the final round he played somewhat safe on whole three on his approach shot and then he played pretty safe on 16 all three rounds but again people were doing that I don't think it was necessarily safety first I think that the tour itself doesn't make people think enough and so being at a course that it's not too difficult or too unpredictable it's just that it requires people to make smart decisions and that's not something that we see happening all the time I think if you look at Joey buckets that's why he's had a lot of early successes in his career is because he just goes out there and executes very similar to Isaac and so I don't even think that Isaac was necessarily playing safety first he challenged the OB enough to go on OB on whole nine I think what you're really seeing from Isaac is him just throwing simple shots that he's really comfortable and confident in because that's his game more than like a safety first strategy per se I don't think that the field failed to adapt I just think that it goes back to what Ganon said at the beginning of the week about Isaac when Isaac is throwing his shots well and is feeling confident it's such a simple game plan uh and on a course that can be attacked with simple game plan I don't think there are many people that can compete with him just look at his F round to Idol wild he was shredding uh obviously he had the blow up at the very end there but when Isaac is executing I really don't think there are people that can compete because his shots are so simple okay yeah yeah fair enough yeah he definitely when he's throwing what he's comfortable with um seems stoppable out there Brody what did you think yeah I mean there weren't too many holes out there that you that people were like playing for par um I think majority of us were trying to birdie every hole the only holes that really like pop out uh like hole five I think there was only a handful of people in the field that were actually trying to play that for birdie um and then you have whole um 16 only a handful of people were playing that for birdie and then whole 17 um with the fact that like you start looking at those holes like five is really the only one that's like not fluky like if you throw a monster drive on five and then throw a great second shot you can birdy it whole 16 is fluky you're throwing a roller I don't know if anyone I didn't see anyone there might have been some not on coverage I didn't see that many people try to go airshot on that hole to try to cover um and then whole 17 another extremely fluky birdie of people trying to skip it off the water we saw people like hitting the tree and staying in bounds so like there wasn't really any holes out there that people were like I'm playing this for par um but like I said there wasn't any holes that were also requiring you to throw a forehand a flex forehand or um a very specific t-shot off the te like you were able to pretty much throw what you wanted whether it was a flex a Hiser flip whatever and you know I've always said Isaac it has one of the best and most consistent shots in disc golf and so if he's able to do that off of T after T after T after T it's gonna be very hard to beat him he has to putt poorly he has to putt really bad okay so so you guys both kind of leaning towards Isaac just kind of having a lot of shots that fit his game and he was executing them well um less about the strategy uh Hunter do you agree with that to a certain extent I think that the way that it it was perceived by us fans um is kind of unfair to Isaac because like the when the dude is on I think that he's executing very difficult shots but he just makes them look so easy that we all assume everyone in the field could just do what Isaac just did where it's like yes everyone in the field is maybe capable of that shot but doing it across the five rounds basically as flawlessly as Isaac did is just near impossible to do um and so I think I definitely think he had a more of a safety first strategy if you want to call it that than a lot of the field but what I think it came down to a lot of times is he's just a smart golfer because what I saw time and time and time again is when he did mess up he knew when this is a moment I need to just take what the course gives me this isn't my time to get that stroke back or this is my time to push and get that stroke back whereas I saw other players not knowing that line where they would throw a disc OB and think I've got to go you know balls to the wall here and get that stroke back right now or okay I need this is the time where I need to push the gas on a hole maybe I shouldn't be whereas Isaac was more will to I'mma throw these shots to these Landing zones stick within my game I'm going to play this course to as best as I possibly can play it and when things do come up I'm still going to stick to my game plan and accept I might have to take a par or a bogey here and move on and get it on the next one um and that's what I was seeing out of him was a lot more of he was playing very controlled very angle controlled shots he was in full control of the disc both on The Fairway and on the green and then when mistakes came he dealt with them in a very thank through thought out methodical process that I saw a lot of the field not doing yeah I think I think that was a very key Point as well um his reaction to the bad breaks because he was getting them as well um Gary wrap it up what did you what did you think about uh Isaac's strategy and how that related to the course you know so far this year in the 684 holes with scoring data on the mo tour the we saw an emergence of a new level of difficulty in the first event at New London and Ivy Hill four holes have now made the top 20 most difficult holes on tour New London now owns the first fourth and Ninth most difficult holes in Ivy uh owns the 19th that being said I think it's super hard to argue that Isaac's plan was Safety First just because someone plays for par on a few holes does not mean that he's not going for it almost everywhere else I mean you mean to tell me that Safety First is being tied for fourth highest birdie rate uh you know he had he was the only person in the field with a bogey percentage in single digits um whole 16 average 0.4 Strokes above par so his play safety first one him Strokes over the field I think just like distance putting and touch things like preparation and mental strength their their skills too and was the course too difficult for the field I don't think it was but if it was I don't even care because it's the world championships this is supposed to be about the best players in the world professionals need to be challenged both physically and mentally and I think both of these courses demanded a very cerebral approach and Isaac did his homework his Mastery of the landing zones at his tournament best 76% scramble rate got the job done this weekend and if other Pros aren't taking notes on this Safety First strategy they're crazy yeah I wantan to I want to push back on Hunter and because he was saying that he thought Isaac did play Safety First and in my mind a safety I said if we want to call what his strategy was quote unquote safety first I know but you're saying like he was playing okay wait so you don't think he was playing safe no I mean I think he was trying to birdie all but I know he wasn't trying to birdie whole 16 at Ivy and five maybe hole six at New London I think it's a little pres say five and 16 were the two holes he was not playing for I do think it's a little presumptuous to say playing for birdie equals not safety I think that there's plenty of holes that course that you can do both so so something that like Isaac did for example is like look at hole eight all right whole eight Eagle had one of the the sickest drives did you guys see that drive on ho eight from Eagle he went past he went past the tree I'm not sure did no I didn't see it he got around that tree he went his his t-shot landed past the tree on the hill smokes right super easy birdie from there but is it also kind of an easy birdie if you just throw like a 400 foot turnover shot and then it's a Hiser right so like that's what I think like Isaac did a great job of is he never did anything that you know could Isaac birdie hold 16 100% 100 per. but he he was looking at the numbers was like the chances of me burning this are probably so slim that it makes no sense for me to go for it so I think Isaac did a great job same thing like um uh what's the super downhill hole I'm 10 10 is it 10 yeah part four that goes Super downhill and then back uphill yes yeah that's another hole people were try were throwing their t- shots way too far off their te and when you go too far it actually starts getting steeper and what was happening is guys disc when they were getting to the ground because it was going more and more downhill they were Landing more vertical and then they were flipping and then rolling if you landed up top higher the roll was never a problem you you were never scared of the Roll so those were things that think players some players figured out and did but yeah I I guess I agree then with Hunter is like the shots were not easy that he was doing like look at the par five whole 15 like I would love to see people go out there and throw that putter shot that he was throwing On a par five and land it in bounds yeah like he's Landing it still in a very small spot he was definitely a shot that's really good for him to do and he's executing It Right add one more thing about his game plan sorry go ahead guys I was just going to say I just I I think how I would have how I would describe his game is I think he just out golfed the field like he just he just thought through the course in such a way in his preparation that he just played better golf like he just I don't I wouldn't agree with that I think there was a lot of people that were playing smart they just didn't do it nearly as well execution wise maybe they were attempting yeah it just wasn't it didn't work out there wasn't every you know I think Nicholas did a great job of playing that course the lead the lead card yeah I all agreee they they did it's just he wasn't messing up yeah yeah exactly I think it also comes down to like preferred angle of release I think a lot of the field likes to throw on Heiser more than anything else and Isaac's preferred angle is flat and so I think that flat is just more controllable than Heiser and you also saw like ncla and uh Joey doing well out there on those courses because they also like that flat release more than a heer which is more controllable as well I think yeah the end the day Isaac he did yeah he like if you watched anybody he did execute his shots better than everybody else but I I definitely and and I agree with Hunter too I think the number one thing that he that he had above everybody was his reaction to bad breaks because I think the the hardest thing was like okay so you have players like Ganon and Calvin and Simon who at times were making big pushes on that course and it seemed like they would get shut down at one point or another and it's okay is that shutdown coming from their own poor decisions or just is this course just never going to reward an aggressive play and I think it's a little different than certain tour courses where you feel like guys get going downhill they keep getting more and more aggressive and it pays off whereas this course it seemed like that was getting punished for one reason or another well and and the thing that I think that you know in an Ideal World if someone throws a bad shot it gets punished equally from hole to whole like in my opinion that's an ideal world and I always say this none of us are trying to throw bad shots but they occasionally do happen and when they do happen in my opinion I don't think one should get punished and another shouldn't and unfortunately on Ivy there are a lot of holes where a bad shot would get way more punished the fact that you could throw your shot and hold 13 never once inbounds in advance 400 feet down the Fairway like that that's crazy to me right that's to me that's wild where on whole two if you throw your shot OB to the right and it never comes back in bounds like that's a massive mistake on that hole because now you're having to throw an upshot 200 feet away like to me like that's where like I think disc golf still needs to work on the rules of how to play disc golf so that way shots like that both get punished and not one gets rewarded with a jump putt Drop Zone Putt and another gets you know hey no you got to throw from way back here it's like we definitely saw one of the biggest varieties of of that kind of OB structure that we ever see isn't Sports in general though Brody like the story of trying to make the least egregious mistake possible like even in baseball if you if you're throwing a curveball in baseball your Miss is you want it to be hitting the plate if you hang a curveball that guy sending that ball 500 feet if you're in the MLB if you hit the plate on a curveball it's a ball so in yeah but everyone but everyone that throws that same pitch is the same for everyone it's not it's not different from one pitcher to the other that's what I'm saying I'm saying I was talking about mistakes in general yeah yeah and I'm saying there's certain holes that if you throw a really bad shot you can have a 20-footer for par and other holes if you throw a really bad shot you have to like rethrow your shot I see what you're saying I thought talking on individual holes but you're talking about I'm saying yeah I'm to me it's just the rules that disc golf currently have they aren't uniformed enough to where a bad shot is a bad shot on each in on every hole sometimes a bad shot isn't that bad of a shot that's what I'm saying yeah if that makes sense but but also at the same time you know your competitors are also playing that same hole the same way so I know but what I'm saying Trevor is if you throw a bad shot in seven and I throw a bad shot in three like they're both equally bad shots why do you get to have a putt for par and I get sent to a drop zone where I have no chance to have a par we're both not trying to I hear I definitely hear that argument I'm not sure should both be we should both be struggling to get you could argue that you could just argue that well on whole three or whatever there's just more pressure because you know that you're punished more for a bad shot and you collapsed under that pressure whereas your competitor didn't like I I think there is an argument both ways there I'm not I'm not sure I care for the inconsistency but I do think it's a still a Level Playing Field because when that other guy stepped up to that hole he had the same odds as you did to me to me to me it's more just on the basis of like if you're throwing out of bounds and having to have a disc come in bounds that's a very scary shot and if you both throw it out of bounds and it never comes back in bounds but one gets to go to a drop zone and another has to rete to me that doesn't make any sense I would like to see it both be played the same way make them both R that's what I'm trying to say uniform rules I'm not saying because I know like when we step up to certain holes Trevor like I know like this this hole is really really tough like I have to make a good shot here if I don't I'm going to get super super punished I would like to see when you step up to another hole that's designed exactly the same for it to play the same way that's what I'm trying to say yeah it's like we we step up to the same hole that's designed the same but plays completely different that that's what doesn't make sense it definitely would it definitely would help the uh just the understanding of the rules in general because watching too yeah yeah because for instance um on whole nine the uh nine is the uh yeah the the kind of longer one was only fpo using a drop zone there or what if you go if you go OB I think you ret no no you go the Drop Zone and but if you crossed you had the option to throw last in bounds or drop zone okay oh that's correct yes yes yeah I say it does get to a point where like as a spectator yeah there we go as a spectator I was kind of looking around I was like okay so um Joel Freeman went out of bounds but he's not going to the drop zone so like when is the drop some come to play it it does get a little complex at times but um yeah I think I think sometimes the use of that alternative OB like having the hazard in front of the some of the par 3es is fun but at times it does get a bit confusing so s throw just just so I can Hammer my point home real quick so anyone that's confused throw that hole up real quick syus number nine and then also throw up hole 13 so dang sent him scrambling no he's right he's fast okay so whole nine and whole 13 are designed exactly the same right can we all agree with that CR you throw OB and it never crosses in bounds you go to the Drop Zone correct sure sure whole 13 you can par from the Drop Zone whole nine you cannot to me that makes no sense they're designed exactly the same but if you throw a bad shot on nine and you throw the same bad on 13 13 you can say far devil devil advocate Devil's Advocate t- shot is is easier um I would I don't know L less OB to carry much less sure you can sure whatever you want to say throwing an even worse t-shot you have an even worse drop zone and I think the Drop Zone also brings in a bigger number too like if you try to play for a par on 13 we saw Ganon almost get a double bogey instead he save par but like at least on nine you know you have to play to save aogi at that point where I'm just saying both holes if you throw a b and you never land in bounds ret yeah I mean yeah I think a part of it is the PDGA is still like even at this tournament they're thinking of the be pool oh is very true we have people shooting 20 overpar at the World Championships per round I mean what do we do can't you can't have a thing be like okay but what if so and so who gets in the B pool can't throw it in bounds then what do we do it's like that person shouldn't be in the field there you go yeah we're not I I think to be honest Hunter with you I think as soon as that happens there's going to be a moment in time when those type of players because like the PJ tour is not worried about designing a hole where it's like hey we have to worry about the 134th everyone's in the field is good at golf yeah we're not we're not there yet in disc golf I think when it gets there I think that is when we'll see a huge change in the way that rules are played yeah yeah which would be good for disc golf honestly it' be good for the growth for sure yeah the real MVP is Papa Robinson what's that what the real MVP is Papa Robinson yeah two two kids in the uh inside of what the top 10 15 you think that Ezra has to like book a tea time to get his dad in the bag yeah for real I wonder if it was like a whoever's in the league I think he no I think he I think he likes to have his wife on his bag I think it's what he says oh fair enough yeah shoot didn't he had the hot round last round I think his wife was on the bag right yeah I think he 11 I think that's how that kind of works fair enough fair enough what be interesting is what happens when Isaac gets married I know here uh we'll have to find out next season um all right final topic we've been on a lot of tangents but it's all it's always good um so Hunter Gary Hunter would you like to go first or second I'd like to go first okay I feel like this is kind of a homer question unfortunately considering that you live next to this course but I do we'll see we'll see what Gary can do um so why do you think New London has become such a fan and player favorite we heard a lot of people singing pretty much everybody singing its Praises during worlds um nobody seemed to have any issue with it um so why do you think it's become this favorite despite its lack of super Scenic signature holes um what makes this course such a success and do you think it will remain as popular if a large portion of the course is redesigned due to Economic Development obviously you even heard of that yet that is something that is uh nearing The Horizon potentially um Hunter what do you think I as I was thinking through this one thing that stuck out to me is New London plays a lot of a lot of shots plays as a wooded course does where it doesn't allow you just to play chip heisers right but the gaps are so wide and so fair that by the time you reach a tree and you hit a tree you're not thinking that was inches away from a perfect shot a lot of times you are far M like many many feet away from a perfect shot and that is what I think a lot of times when wooded courses get to be fluky get to be gimmicky is it's like dang to bro Point Trevor threw 2 feet off his line and it kicked and you know was 100 feet right Hunter threw 10t off his line and he's in the middle of the Fairway it's like well with New London if you're only a foot or two off of your line your intended line which is 95% of the time the middle of the Fairway you might be pushing a back wall or something you're G to be rewarded still like you threw slightly worse than perfect but there's not a tree right there to slap you down really the only hole that I was thinking through that has a tree that I'm like kind of in the middle of the fairways hole eight um but beyond that the majority of the course is like it's very clear what the course is asking you to do um and it's rewarding good shots and I think that's what's making it people love it so much is it's it's very punishing to bad shots pretty much across the board very rewarding of good shots and very demanding of players to where you go out there you throw good shots you hit your lines you're going to score well you don't throw well you don't hit your lines you're not going to score well you're going to have a bad day um and it's fair across the board so I think that uh for it to remain as popular if a large portion is redesigned it has to keep that feel I think a big key of the redesign is going to be very fair Fairways with clear gaps of you know what you're trying to hit um and asking you to throw shots that discs are capable of doing because that's another thing that a lot of wooded courses can get into where you're having to throw these really weird staly flip late flip shots that are just like I've never seen a disc do that New London doesn't have any of that it's very straightforward what it's asking you to do rewards the good punishes the bad basically across the board yeah yeah definitely um valid points there um Gary what do you think why do you think New London is uh become such a favorite you know I think as a course New London scratches and itch that we all have as dis golfers like there's just something about a wooded course with high ceilings wide Fairways that just it's it's magical Iron Hill makes me feel that way Northwood black makes me feel that way WR Jackson mentioned by so many Pros makes them feel that way um and unlike so many wooded courses before it you know holes at New London require more than just a skinny t-shot they you know they demand understanding of shot shaping they force players to learn where the right Landing zone is going to be and they make you think about your angles and Scenic holes are great but I think sometimes Scenic hols at courses are there to cover up some of the other flaws courses can have while there's no hole at New London that I would call Scenic New London has some iconic holes as I mentioned earlier they now have the first fourth and Ninth hardest holes on tour um that would be holes 6 18 and two respectively obviously it changes there um however what do each of these holes have in common they have wide Fairways they aren't hard because they're impossible they don't have ridiculous gaps you have to hit they're just pure golf shots plain and simple and you know you want a good angle and to the left throw it to the right side you know you have to really think about not just the disc as it comes out of your hand but where it's Landing where it's moving to after it lands and the course doesn't really abuse OB um and another big factor is honestly how well the course is kept Bedford County it looks like they do a phenomenal job at keeping the course uh just beautiful because it's never I've never seen in any kind of disrepair and I know you guys mentioned that um uh yesterday uh do I think it retains popularity if a chunk of the course is taken out I definitely think it can because if it continues to celebrate the beauty of woods disc golf and sticks to its roots it feels almost like a spiritual successor to WR Jackson it also helps that a portion of that's being removed is possibly some of the Lesser appreciated parts of it but I think they can do it Paul seemed a little uncertain as to whether he'd be on board again but it's 100% possible because of the love that the community has for that course yeah yeah you know I think it of course like New London begs the question you know there's so many people in disc golf that are obsessed with Woods golf but it's it and you have to ask yourself is it the just super tight lines that they love or is it just being in the woods and and and that being the factor because New London you get to play in the woods it's a wooded course but at the same time you do have very fair lines and I think one thing that that that New London has to it its Advantage is the majority of the field has only come and played this one tournament at it right they've they've played maybe four or five rounds including practice so if you can quickly turn it around and recapture the feel of the course where maybe half the course or more is still the same thing and that familiarity and you just got a little bit of news sprinkled in it's not like we're playing WR Jackson where it's been played for 30 years and and everybody knows it to be a certain way so I think that there's a definitely an advantage there as well um I think a lot of people kind of Hit the panic button but yeah I when you don't have I mean think about it when you don't have that Scenic hole and you're not terrified that oh my gosh the water carry hole with the platform green we're losing that like nobody's going to think about it that way it's all about New London is much more of the essence of the course rather than an individual whole being the star it also is really funny that whole 18 is one of the hardest courses on tour uh or one of the hardest holes on tour because of the OB they added in like I I never saw that coming um something else I didn't see coming was Hunter winning tonight congratulations Hunter I'll be straight with you I didn't see it coming probably because that that long sleeve shirt is so cool it is this is very cool shout out to the world staff for you know creating some awesome merch very little of it but a lot but it was awesome I wasn't very little of it there was like three designs Oh you mean it was one design used three times yes yeah yeah yeah fair but no this was a stack this was a stack cast when I when I loaded in here I didn't see who was on when I loaded in and saw Gary Lucas and Brody I was like well you know third place sounds good I'm happy there so stoked to have this win and you know I'm going use my platform to just shout out and Echo what Gary said of Bedford County Parks and wreck really Bedford County in general um I know this tournament was in Lynchberg Virginia I understand PDGA wi we had to put that label on it because it had to be tied to a big city we call the whole area Lynchberg Bedford County is the ones that freaking did it um Lynchburg Department of Tourism you know they they did a lot of work and that should that should go notice too but when you're watching uh the New London you're watching how it plays and all of that and the amenities and everything to it Bedford County didn't get the recognition they deserve this week I mean that's why this shirt says Lynchberg not Bedford County so I just want to you know give a shout out to them the parks and wck Department the tourism Department Department um heck everyone I've ran into at Bedford County they deserve a lot of a lot of credit that's getting thrown to Lynchberg which Lynchberg you know I love that too but just want to the unsung hero Bedford County there you go there you go um well that'll do it for tonight's episode if you want to submit a topic to be featured on a upcoming episode make sure to scan the QR code or click the link in the description season is starting to wind down boys we are now three Majors into the season we've got one left in probably about six episodes Maybe maybe six weeks or so left uh of the baate night for this season so then the offseason returns and then the offseason returns we might have to get some of the fan favorites from the debate night season into the offseason podcast shoot Breeze yeah we're almost we're we're getting to the the very back end of the 2024 Pro Tour season which is crazy to think it's been a blur but we still have some exciting golf left and hopefully some exciting topics to debate left so we will see you next week