Kat Timpf: Breaking Binary Thinking and Cancel Culture + Promoting Nuanced Political Discourse

Breaking Down Binary Thinking humans are a trying while the bonding chemicals go off when they are not just engaging with people what they see as their tribe but also I mean everybody knows bonding by talking [ __ ] about somebody in the group chat kind of thing what is binary thinking in your opinion binary thinking is the enemy of kind of thinking creatively if you pick a side all the thinking has already been done for you so you don't have to stop and assess the issue and that's easier but also when people aren't thinking dumb things can happen but ultimately I think we're creating this Society where we're not having conversations with each other and we're not finding agreement even when we really could find it people say to me all the time in private oh my God I totally agree with you but I'm too scared to say that in public okay so today we have cat Tim Na I did yeah oh wow on the podcast and cat is besides being four months prant uh is a comedian a writer a political pundit analyst would you yeah sure yes good okay that works uh what else did you call yourself you said I mean WR at go to the film show on Fox on Fox pregnant yeah and Pregnant I kind I think I kind of mentioned it all right yes and this is your second book yeah and the book is called I used to like you and and then brackets how binary thinking divides us and it was your first book was a New York Times Bolder and this book actually doesn't even signing up in 10 yeah yeah okay so Al her time thank you uh hopefully it's going to S great I this is a really important issue I think that now we will let a single difference in terms of viewpoint or Association even or perception about a person be enough to write on the person entirely I think that that tells us everything you need to know about a person well let's happen to be get first of all okay so it's about binary thinking let's just first talk about what in your what is b thinking in your opinion it's basically I mean just so everyone's kind of clear on what this is about yeah CU B can mean lots of different things right now yeah I just say US US versus them one side or the other I go through this a lot because I'm independent politically but I also work at Fox so I get it from both sides how you fox it's and then also have this ideology it's very interesting yeah so I mean I'm independent so it depends on the issue over over overall for small government but that can put me at with or an agreement with all of the parties sometimes depending on what the issue is so I'm in this position where I will get sort of criticized is a nice way or really horrific thing he said to me sometimes my viewers of fox because if I criticize Trump or I'm not conservative about an issue but then there's people on the other side someone that won't even talk to me at all because I work at Fox they're like well that tells me everything need you know I need to know about you and it's really frustrating because neither of those Navigating Complex Political Discourse things really describe me right right and I think that a lot of issues are complex and people are always complex and nuanced and I think that we lose a lot when we keep just writing people off because of one thing about them and we think that we know everything about people based on one thing yeah well that's welcome to the world we live in today right like I don't feel like it was ever like this to the extent and it's just I feel getting worse yeah right and social media has been like the biggest culprit for this um and and and so you know exciting because even when I I was telling you earlier I posted something today that was political which I never really do because I'm scared yeah right and B because like every time I speak out and say something I get like just trolled and you know that the whole hate culture or the cancel culture of like even people even if people don't don't agree with even if they if you have a different opinion people AR even scared to even talk about it so they just either go with what's popular or like PC or they just stay silent and to me there's like there's there's nothing there's nowhere to go from there yeah I read about that in the book actually too there's actually huge gaps uh studies shown this is is their opinion and what people believe and then what they say that they believe because they think that's what they need to say and then also I think that if you are someone who's on one of the two sides so let's say you have a career as a Republican or you talk you're talking talks um you're liberal and you have this audience and you know that your audience is getting upset with you if you really say something kind of against your side or that you lik something that the other side did and some people won't do that and I think that you know I understand how it can be tough to actually because you been social media have to see all that hate but at at the end of the day people kind of get over it eventually they move on I have people you know I get criticized by some people can feel like a lot but then also the viewers of fox come out to my shows right I do lot of live shows they come out so it's not like it's everybody that's watching that's yelling at me but in the moment it can feel like everybody's yelling at you everybody hates you and people kind of want to try to avoid that but ultimately I think we're creating this Society where we're not having conversations with each other and we're not finding agreement you when we really could find it right I think cuz we're all we're all more alike than we're not but yet same time I think there is because I think people are afraid of Castle culture and so that's why people are not having that is the beginning cuz you saw what happened you know few years ago when it started and it's people because of that are very very shell shocked that when I have when I do this show or this podcast or even in like for life right or in social media I say all sorts of things and people say to me all the time in private oh my God I totally agree with you but I'm too scared to say that in public right yeah you you get that all the time I get that all the time I've also gotten I recently found out I have a friend who went through a breakup and her boyfriend was a I read up the St her boyfriend was a Hollywood director and you know how in friends B breakups you always find out things that they didn't tell to you all they together of course so she actually told me that he wouldn't send her pictures that he had taken of the two of us because he was worried that she would post the pictures and people would see that his girlfriend was with me which would then affect his career and I went through this thing for a while I was really sad cuz I was like I thought this person was my friend I mean they were together for a very long time they were together for almost 10 years I had a really small wedding I had 30 people there he was one of the people there even though some friends Partners weren't there even some friends weren't there and I was like I thought that this person liked me I thought we had a friendship and then I realized he did like me that part was genuine that we got along he was just too afraid to post of have his girlfriend have a picture with me in it because of what that I do first and there are a lot of people like that have people privately tell me even people who are famous well know oh I really like I don't want to follow you or like your post because what people might say it's it's just ridiculous it's ridiculous well I'll tell let's just talk about this right it's it's it's prevalence right now not it's not as prominent as it was the October 7th right the whole War right pro Israel Pro Palestine I'm going to tell you right now I'm Pro is real right and I was I'm very hardcore about it now however not being B anary here I do see that those Shades of Gray with a lot of things that are happening however when I'm up there on my platform talking about it that's exactly what would happen people are afraid to post about me the same with your friend with the boyfriend because they're nervous that that's going to have a ripple effect to what that's going to mean about other things and the other side is that people who do believe in what you're saying they double down on you right so it's a very interesting how people's psychology work in this way and how you're not allowed to have an opinion and yet still be able to see other pieces of the opinion because that's you're you're un able to like me and disagree with me at the same time is what I'm that is basically my imp public imp public and for v i life is very much like that I mean I have people who are on all sides of pretty much every issue and I have they're all very valuable relationships to me in some way or another I can't imagine going through life without some of these relationships even though there might be very strong strong disagreements on is on various political issues be you know about the election or if they are about foreign policy or things that I people want all sides of every issues but we'll have other things in common that we can kind of unite around and I feel like my life is richer because of that and I I think it's really sad that a lot of people can't kind of do that themselves so what what's brought you to like like write this book like in terms of like you were a comedian you write I even saw that you used to be a writer for bar stools yeah I did a lot of really fun man Street videos for bar that's so funny yeah I know I used to actually she been on a show a bunch I'm friend with Erica she's amazing she go L with there but um I thought I thought that was really funny so right away though that tells me something when I saw that was part of your bio I'm like but you you kind of get keyed into okay this person's like in my opinion she's cool she's not like so you know she's not so conservative in so way she can be fun you know what I mean like people do get that kind of vibe based on what your what your background everyone's background is and then they can make a decision but um anyway my point is like go ahead I didn't mean to interrupt you but no I mean I got the idea for this book when I Navigating Religious Evolution and Familial Relationships was on my after I WR the first one when I was kind of on my way to the tour for the second one and um I just as I was going along on the tour and became more and more sure I need to write this book and was started writing this book because I was kind of living it I was going around the th shairs meeting all these different kinds of people and I saw how much that we really did have in common and also I kept having the same experience at these theaters where I would go and the staff at the theater would always say to my team and I was on stage like she works at Fox News just because of the show that I was doing and it's like well yeah I do and I also um this way on there too I mean I'm I'm fully welcome to be myself and say my opinion and even though it's might be different than what other people's is and I think that we're really losing out a lot when we let one thing be enough to not to completely write off the humanity of another person and but I think that we're being manipulated too I think that the people in power over us did works great for them because it's really great to say a vote for me is a vote not just against something you disappear with but a vote against actual evil that's really motivating and I I mean but it's also motivating for people to say you know I'm on the good side and the other side's bad then you get to be good just cuz you're not on the bad side and that can be really hard to give up too but we're really losing more by because we could be working together on so many more things right but okay so where you because you grew up growing Catholic was it yeah super Catholic super Catholic yes so this is a far Pride cuz that was like you were probably gr very conservative right so I grew up very afraid of the devil now you work for the devil some people some people yeah I grew up like actually truly terrified of a devil I mean I I was raised very very Catholic I'm totally agnostic now I'm just a question mark um I think I think I would be happier if I were religious because I would love to think that that I'm station being older and then die that's kind of a but I just it's a huge bum but I mean yeah I was extremely extremely Catholic so what was your Evolution how did you go from one extreme until where you are now yeah I don't know I mean I took it seriously like I was doing bread and water fast in the fourth grade for souls in purgatory oh wow I was very serious about it I think part of it was I I was having sex with my high school boyfriend which was like a pretty normal thing to do but to me I was like I'm going to go to hell cuz I'm doing this why did I stop doing this I would confess it to the priest that I was doing it like wow yeah yeah so I mean I and then eventually I just kind of thought you know do I really think that I deserve to go to hell for all of eternity and the in eternal torment because I'm having sex with my boyfriend and and then I realized I don't think that I do and so that's what kind of I mean in general I think some of the things that and I I also that the Catholic church that he went to is really that's a moral sin and like if you if you go to confession then you're you're good but if let's say I went to my boyfriend's house had sex with my boyfriend and it was on my weight to confession I got hit by a car then I would go to hell forever right so I confession to me that just didn't that didn't eventually sit right with me I was like I think that I'm actually like not hurting anybody here right and so like what do how old were you when you kind of had this like but I mean I was like 17 17 18 I was probably I was Catholic until I was about like 18 or 19 I wonder if it's because I find that when people are so extreme in one area the pendant I'm usually desting to the opposite side yeah and it is actually I write a whole chapter about religion in my book which I mean I my my mom died 10 years ago but my mom's family very religious I mean I there is definitely pressure on me people want to believe as I write about my book which I'm you know terrify people to read about I decided to open about that was a that was tough with me and her and you know I people geta as though it's on purpose like I actually told God like hey let's take a hike I'm not interested in what you have it offer that's not true I like I love the idea of eternal life and happiness I just can't get there I can't I hope to someday believe in something but I just I don't know did your mom before you died were you able to like reconcile your situation with her like I think that the conversations you have after death are they only look like that in the movies yeah I think you know like she was like I'm thirsty like I don't feel good like she's dying you know but you were still we had a relationship we had a relationship yeah it wasn't like she was you wer a strange you wer strange but it was you know a lot and and my mom was awesome um she was Challenging Binary Thinking in Society actually kind of a living embodiment a lot of things about this in this book she was very very Catholic she was a really vulgar she was really funny yeah she's really funny um I was I remember some of the nurses want her hospital sheo was out describe her as a Le all the pictures of Hope and Dick jokes like she was you wouldn't know when you interacted with her that she was as religious AG but she took she she was an awesome H truly an awesome H right and but like she doesn't want me to go to hell so you kind of understand where she's coming from how it's not that simple just be like oh that's okay that you don't because in her I I'm going to hell so how do you kind of get past that you kind of can't get past that um and she actually she was in the hospital work for she died she did her last rights she her last rights and then she told the priest like I'm I'm like worried about that she made me my brother and sister my dad go to conf like made here our confessions in the hospital cuz she asked him about it he was like we don't really do that and she was like I see an open officer over there so but she also you know who do like how did she get him to do that really remarkable but it was it was really tough and I wish people could just understand that it's not like I am rejecting the idea of eternal life on purpose if that makes sense yeah no it does make sense to me um although all of this is kind of a little bit upside my other than like experiencing it and understanding it um I've never been I've been read your situation so but what about uh like now you're a Libertarian that's how you kind of okay how would you describe that because everybody I speak to whenever I ask them what their definition of a Libertarian is it's always different yeah always and so I'm even confused like someone says that I'm like well does that mean you're kind of more are you a Republican are you not Republican are you like the opposite are you what does it mean to you I a lot of people say they're more libertarian they're not it just like depends on the issue yeah I I think that's what it is right it's not I mean I'm it's pretty simple I say free markets and no judgies that's what it needs to me free markets yes so it means small government but all across the board but that includes social issues so I'm different than a lot of Republicans in that sense um uh I am anti-war which it depends on the war and the political party sometimes who that I'm just for smaller government so you don't High stand across the lord well I think that um I mean do you want to talk about this this uh super super super complicated no I'm tell but this what it is about being non-binary right I think it's about so I think um in terms of United States and involvement in you know being the world's policeman I think that we haven't done a very good job of it I think with all the things look so my husband and I remember this he is a um Afghan war veteran right and he went over to Afghanistan and that was a decades conflict and what exactly did we get from that I know it's true we and if you said this if you were ever to say this you were a like a terrorist or a traitor or a terrorist sympathizer and you know I I think that's War makes a lot of money and it's it was really hard watching him go through that um because it's you know he lost friends friends classes over there who died over there and um you know I think that we we have to be able to ask questions about everything we have to be able to say this thing doesn't make sense we we have to be able to listen to each other and um not just be like oh you said that therefore you're you're with the terrorists so this and I know it's also the same way like with Israel saying you feel for the hostages I mean to that's you should you should feel for innocent I feel for innocent civilians everywhere right right um but that's you can't even say that anymore you can't say say because people like to have I think it makes people feel very very comfortable um and safe when they have like a a y and and like so you're fighting with like human nature in that way right like you know it makes me feel comforted when I'm like you know that's like kind of like with habits and routine and all the things that I talk about it's because it gives you a sense of comfort and like predictability yeah right is to do what I about this is going against human nature it absolutely is going against human nature yeah humans are tribal humans um get good you know the bonding chemicals go off when they are not just engaging with people what they see as their tribe but also I mean everybody knows bonding by talking [ __ ] about somebody in the group chat that's so true that's what people do though they bond over like misery and Joy Company that's kind of what they're com from like people blind over talking [ __ ] yeah so true they they do and I think this just happen on such a larger scale you were talking about I want to open the wi sweating pregnant I don't want to be um you were talking about how how it basically is going against human nature to be to be to think like this and act like this yeah it's going against human nature hum Liv our trial but when we do engage with people who are different from us we learn a lot I mean if we only if we don't do that we are so so binary thinking is based on the a of critical thinking I say this in the book and that's because if you pick a side all the thinking has already been done for you so you don't have to stop and assess the issue and that's easier but also when people aren't thinking dumb things can happen but that also it me it's the enemy of kind of thinking creatively um and and you just miss out on these opportunities and then so much research shows whether it is religion whether it is politics no matter what it is if you get just get to know people who are from a different religion or who are from a different background or who are have different views you will not be as easily subjected to believing things about them that aren't true because we're wrong about each other all the time research pass that out too that often Democrats will um believe that a way higher percentage of Republicans believe in so-called extreme beliefs than they actually do and same goes for the other side and the only way around it is unfortunately going against human nature and getting to know people that are not in your bu essentially was there any particular story or uh anything that kind of happened to you that kind of even preempted the fact that you really wanted to write this book like was there well this happened this this this scenario happened I know you talked about like Bill Mar in your book as well yeah I think it was just the experience of um working where I work and go every time you go out to a party and you meet people what at watch ask like what do you do and I've always I I I I I read my book that I said that I work in porn before which I've done I've actually and that's only with people that I you know know that I'm never here to see again like yeah they work porn like oh that's so cool and then it's like actually they move on basically it's not a big deal right but if I say because if I say work at Fox News people will then it's not a conversation anymore people will project every thought and opinion they go around about Fox onto you and it's just exhausting and it's like I'm almost and I still want to deal with that I'll say I'm a writer I've said um no thank you when people have asked me and the people weirded out and they just like really yes because again no thank you no thank you what what do you do for or don't thank you and then people okay because when I say Fox News it just changes the Bible the whole thing and it shouldn't because again but doesn't that tell you something though right there course like to me that SS like these the the the Democratic people the left people whatever what whatever you want they're more they're much more critical and binary than the right side but yet a lot of times the right side gets um overly criticized for being too binary see I get it from both sides I guess you for me it's interesting so I don't work I get it from both sides I'll get a you know often times for social issues I'll get stuff from the right or you know my my STS Too Short what I wear I'm too craft my attitude definitely the religion thing definitely the religion thing well since time by the way religion and politics are the two things Navigating Political Discourse and Media Biases that you should never talk about yeah and I do I write all about it I you for living sorry about politics so um I I definitely get it from both sides I'd say the the difference is and I don't that's just simply because of where I work but I find that more people on the right are at least willing to speak with me sometimes people on theot won't talk to me at all like I'm not allowed into the roomly because of where I work what's your actual opinion and you can have gray areas onl on your what's your political stance just L time just across the board so I I I don't I don't vote I've never voted for nor I always V third party I've never I never have and I don't intend to like what if what's happening now you know RFK now is going to be endorsing yeah he did yeah he did which I was shocked about that um what do you think of all that stuff so I understand in some ways why he did it and there is a lot of pressure to sort of pick aside as they say I really hope that he doesn't stop um being able to cuz what I really like to RFK even though I disagree from some things other things whatever I I like the hien voice I like that he would criticize the policy and he would not criticize or he would not be swaying based on whose policy it was or the comment so he would say I disagree with this or I think this is a good idea whether it was coming from you know Biden conell or was coming from Trump and I hope he doesn't lose that because he's endorsed Trump because he even said in his speech when he endorsed him he said you know I do disagree with some things Trump said but so I you know I I hope he doesn't lose that because I think those voices are really rare and really kind of precious and with the way things are now yeah I mean listen i' i' thought I've wanted to hear him speak a bunch of my different friends had had him for fund phrasing and stuff like that but the truth of the matter is like people in that position don't have a chance all they're doing is taking votes away from someone else that you may want to win do you know what I'm saying you see I and I understand that but I don't I don't have people say that to me all the time but I I don't like my vot belongs to me and people will say you know you just have to get over and pick a side and I don't I don't fit in on either side so who who who are you going to vote for now probably probably the libertarian candidate yeah just whoever that may be and it does and so for me it's not so much that I'm voting for The libertarian candidate themselves because the libertarian party can be pretty embarrassing a lot um I'm voting for a system where it doesn't matter so much who wins I mean I think we put so much emphasis on which people are in power and not enough emphasis on the amount of power that those people have yeah that's actually very true you know yeah what do you think of Poma like were you I mean what's there the thing with her like she doesn't she hasn't said anything PR tover she's she's truly been on every side of most issues so I don't know what sign she is on of them now you know that right now she also said that she was going to be putting hundreds of millions of dollars to the wall that they started that Donald Trump started right after constant criticism of how that that wall was such a Dey like that's the problem however the issue I have is that women because she's a woman people are going to vote for her just on that love without knowing her policies not knowing what she's really stands for she really hasn't doesn't stand for anything the media so was like awesome I mean of course that's the she's become this manufactured thing of like she's cool and cool you know she has a girl that you want to go out with and like you want to go with her no of course not but I mean that's it's all manufactured that yeah but see that's the problem also right so people are getting swing more to one side of the the other depending on what media they're following so media is a really big problem because it's all proper not a lot of it is not true it's not authentic you working me you work at I work at Fox I work at Fox and it's interesting to me when I you know I I actually just directly address it I write a lot about Fox News kind of as a light lightning rhyme in the book and you know it's really interesting to you when people are like how could you work there and fox is this and you start it's like well yeah it is but you're you're acting like there's no Med liberal slant yeah you know there's a lot of Med liberal slant and also for me it's just Professional Evolution and Personal Challenges a platform you know it's a platform that I'm very grateful for it's just I I I hav worked elsewhere so I don't really know but having that freedom they don't ever tell me I can't say something at F I've never really been like I want to say this but I was told I can't so I'm very grateful for that how did you get the job at Fox like was the proc like what did you do um was your like again like your Professional Evolution yeah I was a writer and I just been doing guest appearances on Fox and um I eventually got on bred ey which was the gre's 3:00 a.m. show before he had the new show was I don't know it was a show called r at 3 3:00 a.m. I used to actually watch it back when I like lived out L he was working at the waitress working at Boston Market and I was like I be really good on that show and I say that to when I was watching with my boyfriend and his brother his brother would be like you're a cashier at Boston Market so I showed him right but I um that's a great story actually yeah so you were working at Boston see this is a clip by the way so you were working at Boston Market last year how many years ago gosh it's been so I was like all I always know how old my cat is so it's been 14 years really time so 14 years ago you were working in Boston you're watching this show at 3: a.m. on Fox midnight in LA right right and they were like hey you know i' be really good on this show yeah okay yeah and I always wanted to you know work with Greg and I I started getting guess appearances on Fox just because of my writings and Street videos I was doing I finally got on GRE ey I was so nervous but I just kind of pretended I wasn't and Greg and I had it off we had really great you know on a chemistry and so he kept asking me to come back the most you can get asked back as a guess in where is every two weeks so I was going back every two weeks and then during that time I got an email that I they wanted me to fill in on a pilot they were doing which I understood was an audition which is for like the new weekly show so I did that and I I got the job basically so I mean it was kind of crazy just you know how specific of a goal that I set that happened really crazy wow that is so crazy I had to think to be honest it's crazy that at 21 years old you were watching that show yeah well R was like a raashi kind of weird um I I don't know how else to describe it show uh was it a popular show it was on at 3:00 in the morning but it had like a cult F I was going to say like what kind myself included what was like what kind of like what kind of numbers with the show G I have no idea but it was I think it was a lot of food service employees like watching it that is amazing yeah and so you've been at Fox for this whole time I've been at Fox for nine nine years now so just kind of different in different ways in different in like positions basically for shows I've always yeah I've always been on great show we were just a weekly show at first and then now we're on every night and I do obious the shows there as well wow and then do you also tour them with the ComEd the com yeah tour yeah M are you so did you like stand at like The Comedy Store and all that too or is it just I think well I was doing stand up kind just prepared for my tour in New York getting up around New York and stuff um trying out new stuff but I'm on tour every weekend but I'm not on the show basically with the exception of like one or two so do you like a n f special no not yet but not yet but it's a new this be like the Boston Market thing like having yeah I think I would be really good i' be really good at that so you don't open up for anybody else like on on you know on tour or anything no anymore I don't know when I would quite frankly and now you're having a baby yes I'm have the baby wow so so your schedule basically do you still write independently for other besides the book of course this book so I mean I'm on Fox 5 nightes a week and I'm on tour the nights that I'm on on Fox wow I think I have like one or two weekends off before I I not let it fly anymore cuz of a baby I know so what are you going to do what to have the baby are you going to my best yeah my best I love I don't know I didn't really Google it I was kind of just like all right well I'll you know take I'll get my birth control out and I got pregnant and control no yeah like all I was have sex which I understand that that's a that worse but that's kind of I I know but like I just that can't how is that how you know I didn't get I need a license I don't even know how to hold a baby so I'm going to have to find something to hold someone's baby you know it's so fun some things are so funny you know I had on before you came on was like the the leading Child Development psychologist like in the country whatever and we actually were talking about that before how like there's no like license to have a baby like people who are like completely incomp not to see any are incompetent or somewhere just have a baby and people just have to figure it out as they go and that's people figure it out like I think you're going to figure it out that's what I'm hoping you know I mean I'll figure it out right I you know I mean you're smart I mean I never thought like saw myself as somebody that want to have kids and that my husband I was like I want to his kids I think really yeah how long have you guys been together we've been together only 6 years by the time I get birth oh wow so is he in the same world as you or no he's a finance guy oh he is yeah he likes FR sheet no way he he he loves he actually likes it too he loves fresh she he enjoys it he's he's opposite brain of mine how like how did you guys meet we met on right I the dating app you oh really yeah I met a lot people that were not my husband on R sure he W like I didn't like him at first cuz it was really my type I really liked only like the creative type and stuff like that and my sister beening a l with him and you know he's we just really balance each out balance each other out really well and he's like my biggest supporter that's amazing it's just I mean I I'm a lot to handle I'm I'm I'm a nightmare honestly sometimes yeah why is it because you're opinionated I'm opinionated I'm impulsive I'm also pregnant so I'm unmedicated I ADHD and I've been on stimulant my entire life except for right now like I started realing when I was five and now I'm not on stimulus and it's been a real real strong oh wow yeah so this is the first time you've never been on any so other than the times when I was like hospitalized like yeah wow yeah but everyone always says they have but they know a doctor noticed I was 5 years old wasn't functioning in a classroom setting so yeah really definitely havehd are you on now not now we did you change to ad I took I'm taking them all I see five I'm going to see five minut again when I'm being pregnant do you feel a major difference yes I have to it's it's really hard for me to read and write and pay attention and also regulate my emotions and pretty much everything it's hard for me to do anything actually wow and um he's been very very supportive like very supportive and I'm also I'm very self-aware which I think helps or he you know a common scene will be along the lines of like you'll be like hey babe like can you like if you work I'm like picking this up a little bit if you want me to move out I will I'm like okay sorry you know and you're pregnant so the emotions are and hormones are like through the room yes so sitting here doing this is it really hard for you it's hard for me to do anything so this is just part part from the forest I'm not kidding but I'm trying to view it as like this is I I I you know be it view it as like a new exciting experience of like okay I already know what it's like to be medicated let's just like accept that you're not and go all the way into feeling all the things and doing all the things so I don't spend time kind of feeling sorry for myself about it no oh if only I could kind of just lean all the way into it can you could I remember when I was pregnant I drank a cup of coffee you're allowed to drink coffee I'm drinking coffee you are drinking coffee yeah but I can't I I love nicotine obviously not doing that right yes I'm obvious I'm not doing that were you like at Big smok I was I was a smoker not really I smoked when I drink in college although I did drink a lot in college as I think a lot of people did like now I'm like why but um yeah know everybody's like drinking just incessantly and you're like oh okay sure you do but people do in holiday that's what they do yes and I thought I was vaping a lot like sess VAP I was vaping like two at a time so then I quit that but um almost two years ago I quit vaping and then I was using the stin gum L pouches they helped me write they help me Focus what happens if you take the nicotine gum I you know I mean I don't remember this but if you're not smoking it nicotine in itself is very damaging to the baby yes right but like is there a way that they can weave you off of it like that I just stopped turkey yeah so you went coold all on everything yeah wow I'm surprised you're even sitting here was this isn't the hard thing for you to do yeah I mean it's But I me I I'm interested in this you know I I like talking about these issues I like talking about my book it's like it's miserable for me to be alive no maybe the first trimester was what but does it does it does it cost like CU does ADH it sounds like you said that all these other things like the anxiety and depression if they like cuz your emotions are not regulated yeah that's what was happening and you can't I thought they they're allowed to be on men now you can but they're they're kind of like so you can but we don't really know how it affects the be and also wasn't comfortable with that so I was like I'll just no that's cuz I wouldn't want to be like down the road something's wrong now I'm like is it because I so I just I'm doing I'm doing nothing yeah you know I'm just and thankfully I have supported people in my life who understand and I'm still working very hard it's just harder it's harder I know but you could you're probably always distracted or you can't focus and all that so it's hard it is hard but I'm not I'm doing it I could never do this for myself I don't love myself this much but I haven't even met this baby yet I love this baby and often which just so weird because I always said like how are people say all babies and then we going need them you don't know they're going to grow up they could suck like this kid could grow up and be like the worst it could going be the worst we never I don't know it's it's so crazy I'm doing all this and it's going to be so weird like there's going to be a baby living in my apartment I know isn't that weird it's so weird it's going to be like meeting me to stay alive and then it's going to start to Expecting and Birth Discussions talk and mean if all goes well and it's going to tell me no it's going to tell me no and I'm going to be like listen I didn't chew any nicotin though for you or take M that you can have the best shot and you're going to tell me no trust me it's a thankless job figure out pretty quickly that's what that's yeah do you do you have do you know if it's a boy or a girl I'm not my doctor does I don't want to find out oh you don't want to find out yeah oh I think it's a boy my husband thinks it's a girl really just for no reason I can tell by how you're how the big well you think it's a boy too let me see can I see it yeah it's like low I think it's a boy yeah I think it's I think it's a boy too that's what I think it feels like it's a boy well you're low that's why yeah I had a boy I have a boy and a girl and that was I I remember with me it was like low like yeah I feel like it's a boy it just feels like it's a boy but you're nauseous so that means it might be a girl because girls make you really nauseous and also my skin is a disaster which they say that that's a girlo that's a girl too so I just had like everything so it's twin a girl it's not but I mean yeah I just kind of want to be surprised well that's how my mom did it yeah and I kind of want to do many things like way she didn't although she didn't do medication so I'm kind of like curious about it I kind of want to she didn't do medication I hav try to do it without modication you mean without an epidural getting bir without it yeah okay I'll tell you something I did my first one with an epidural the second one nothing honestly if you can go without doing anything it's better and you heal much quicker yeah much quicker and you're back up in Adam much better if you can do it I mean it depends if you're I'm just I'm also this is so weird this something I'm curious yeah you're curious I don't know how it feels I mean I know it doesn't feel I know it hurts it's excruciatingly painful but I so I had a my book about this my first book I had a bowel perforation what is that it's like I a hold in my co and I have anos in me like like a [ __ ] back for uh 5 weeks I'm okay now everything's fine now what was this this was 2020 wow but this was that was all this to say that hurt very bad yeah and there was no little baby at the end of that that was exactly like maybe if I could get through that I can get through birth you could problem I think people are surpr to be honest I felt it to be worse on the ID because everything is just worse on every level and like if you just like site yourself up for what it is I think you'll be okay I mean it's excruciating don't get me wrong sure but it's just it's excruciating in the with the of the epidural in a different way that if it made sense to you yeah because for me it's like the pain at least it's supposed to be yeah it must be pain it's not like other pain I've had like that where it's like this pain leads you're dying and you need emerc surgery right it's actually a lot different exactly so again I have no idea what I'm talking about I've never given birth so maybe I would really handle maybe I like such a little [ __ ] I can't handle you give me the drugs I am you can at least plan for the natural and might immed be like no I can't screw that give me the drugs that's what will do I didn't have a choice the second time I had to do natural because they were trying to give me the epidural while the baby was coming out and that's when my [ __ ] that and just I had the baby and I was like oh my God it wasn't as bad as I thought it was going to be I'm like so happy I didn't get the epidural cuz I can have the two comparisons so just for that kind of information take take it for what it for what it's worth you know but that's my goal that's my goal but definitely a hospital definitely a hospital oh I was talking about this missling friends the other night actually pretty much every person that I know and not every person but most of them that have planned this home birth thing a lot of them have vom up like meting you at the hospital anyway I feel like anybody that like to me that's that is crazy yeah I just I want the drugs there I want the drugs around just in case just in case I also think like so much [ __ ] can go wrong yeah you don't even think of like why would you put your would you go go through all this stuff not doing the netin not doing the medication not doing and then you're going to put yourself in a situation where [ __ ] can go wrong that you're not even thinking of but I love do like I'm somebody who always calls the doctor and my husband makes fun to me I'll be like are you a hypochondria um so he says yes okay I say no I say no he who depends who you want to tr he says yes although I ended up being right that I was dying when I need the ship bag so he what happened did you I mean I mean it was I said really bad St man it was like really really bad I was like I need to go to the hospital but I also called the doctor for angry thing so but what what caused the stomach it's it's not sure I think it could have been from a colonoscopy that I had but like you can't really prove that because it had been previous a couple like weeks before that wow so it's just a very rare I don't like you discourage people from getting those cuz whether it was that or was SP something it it was really a rare rare rare rare thing to happen it's like a 0.001 thing to happen so I was that small percentage is someone and it was me it was you so then like what Happ did you think that you had to wear like with we just lucky that it only was 5 months that you had to wear it was really small it was really minor it was a really really minor but you know how so you to like walk around with it out like outside like where stuffed in your pant you see there's a scar right here oh so I have my God that's me well well it's my it's going to get bigger cuz I'm having a baby and out but I have my small intestine coming out of my stomach and my husband like still had sex with me wow yeah I mean when was see it was covered up with like a belt if you're wondering was he say out there I was say pouring oh yeah I can show you later but like if you really want to see it yeah yeah so interesting to me I thought you had Ras no this F pass on theary you know that is so insane wow well okay so congratulations again I know that you're like the add is Qui but and hot God bless you for sitting here for how long has it been 40 minutes or so 45 minutes yep okay I will let you wrap it up but listen Okay every when the book is called I used to like you and and how Bion thinking to buy Des by cat Tim who's pregnant and who's great and you guys should go grab her book because um it's good and you guys should just read it that's it and he where where else people find you the real.com everything book tour everything the real m is the real Jen Cohen the same thing there is thank you so much for coming on the podcast even in your disfor man thanks for having you absolutely bye