Sunday Morning with Trevor Phillips | Jonathan Reynolds, Joanna Cherry, Simon Harris and Ben Page

48 hours ago the nation awoke to a political earthquake no one under 45 has ever voted in an election that took the Downing Street keys from the conservatives and handed them to labor but politics is a brutal business just days ago Rishi sunak was the leader of one of the most powerful Nations on Earth this morning is all but invisible and all eyes are on his successor Kia starma didn't waste a moment by this time yesterday his top team had assembled for their marching orders they left by the front door meanwhile at the back door the previous occupants of number 10 were making a quiet exit boring boring across town the real architect of the Tory defeat got his seat and he just doesn't do quiet hold on to your hats Jonathan Reynolds is the new business and trade secretary with a pivotal role in delivering the new government's key mission of economic growth we'll look at the party's mandate for Change and some timely advice from a previous labor prime minister for the conservatives it's opposition following a devastating election result it's hard to tell exactly how the party will rebuild as potential leaders wait to emerge we'll be joined by Tor big beast and former ch Chancellor Nadim zahawi just how far could the new prime minister go in forming a closer relationship with the EU the Irish Prime Minister tells this program there would be a fair hearing for any proposals from K stama we'll bring you that interview with Simon Harris one of the biggest stories of the election was the collapse of the SNP they lost dozens of seats in Scotland one of the most prominent to go was Joanna cherry we'll talk about why it happened and what it means for Independence plus with us throughout the show the former labor adviser and K starma biographer Tom Baldwin the editor of The Spectator Fraser Nelson and the chief executive of the Foreign Affairs Think Tank chattam house that's Bronn Maddox [Music] welcome to Sunday morning with Trevor Phillips in a year when elections elsewhere seem dominated by extremism and violence Britain's democracy remains defiantly devoid of melodrama and in my view all the better for that we'll see in time if Kama can make a better Fist of the enormous challenges facing our nation than his predecessor the cost of living an aging more diverse population climate change war in Europe take nothing away from the scale of Labour's Victory it was huge but what took place on Thursday was no Revolution yes we chose the toolmaker son over the pharmacist's boy but the AED prime minister didn't complain that the election had been stolen in a notably gracious resignation speech he called his conqueror a decent man who he respects the Victor returned the compliment reminding us that Richie sunak would go down in history as our first eth ethnic minority leader perhaps we're on the verge of a return to something we used to prize in politics civility we might start to talk about some of those big issues rather than dwelling on internal party psycho dramas I may even persuade someone on this program to give an answer that's actually related to the question I've asked come on even journalists Can Dream let's give it a go a little earlier I spoke to the new business and trade secretary Jonathan Reynolds Secretary State and before I go anywhere else with this interview how does that sound Secretary of State it's the first time I've had that in an interview and it does feel very special on a personal level to have had that experience of being asked to walk up Downing Street to go to an office that used to belong to Winston Church Hill in the old admiralty the Department of Business and trade really really personally significant but obviously the most exciting bid is to be able to get on with the job and deliver on the Mandate that we've received indeed and um the last but one labor Prime Minister Tony Blair doesn't waste any time in telling you how you should get on with a job um his top thing I gather is that he says that uh you need a plan for migration and that implies that he thinks you don't actually have one um and that because you don't have one you risk the rise of the national populists that's a rather stinging assessment of the labor campaign isn't it well look I think he mentions immigration once in in a 1500w article but the policies we put forward in the election are I think what the country needs it's not just about tackling illegal immigration important as that is we've got to look at legal migration we've got to to look at the relationship to the skills system why for instance have there been jobs on the shortage occupations list now for 15 years or since the the list came into existence you know the sense of it not responding to real market conditions relying too much on immigration even though I will always welcome people who want to come to contribute to the UK changes the apprentiship levy that we put forward we have a plan for that and it's about a much closer linkage between migration well that's interesting because he he's pretty clear that he doesn't seem to think you have his in a typical sort of Blair phrase he says if you don't have rules you'll have prejudices and what that implies that he he thinks you haven't actually laid out any rules you might have projects but you don't have rules and the point I think he's making is labor has to get a grip on legal migration numbers and he wants to see what you're going to do about that what is it would you for example back his call for ID cards well the new uh Home Secretary will be looking at all sources of advice when it comes to that but I would just say we have backed the points-based immigration system we made difficult decisions particularly when we thought legal migration was too high I think it has to come down again I'll say that whilst always welcoming people who do make a contribution come to the UK to do that I think it's you historically high at a time when Public Services were under strain and I think it's it's right to recognize public concern around that but look we we made decisions not just in the campaign but before it about backing at times decisions particularly on dependence which were not easy decision so we have been doing that we'll continue to do that and we want to address those issues but what's what's clear from what you've just said is that you haven't made a decision but digital ID cards are on the table as one possibility well look my colleague vet Cooper and the rest of the home Affairs team will be looking at all sources of things I'm not going to preempt things they may or may not want to do but I would push back on the assertion that we've not made already significant political decisions recognizing public concern on legal migration recognizing the system has to work better but looking at the real answers not gimmicks as we saw from the previous government and I I'll respect my colleagues taking that agenda forward okay well let me put it to you in a a slightly different way um Everybody respects Tony Blair but is this intervention a little bit unhelpful in the first 48 Hours well I don't think anything is unhelpful of course when you are an incoming government you're always looking to people who have frankly done a job in the past in government their expertise their experience will be invaluable it's not about harking back to any era but of course the people have been in something that resembles a similar position to this incoming government we'll listen to them of course we will well you say you say not harking back to another therea it's striking this morning that there are um a couple of new appointments both of which are pure Blair right era Jackie Smith who was at home Home Secretary uh I was a Blair Minister for a long time and Alan Milbourne actually who is the Blair Health secretary both back in one way or another in government well this is a cabinet uh which is when a mandate in its own right as its own set of people that knows what its own agenda is and actually in historical terms actually ground breaking some of the representation now we're seeing at the top table of British government of course we will use expertise experience where it is available I think specifically on on Alan Milburn I know he's been working with the health Team I think no announcement has been made around that but of course people like Jackie Smith and the experience that they bring there are a lot of problems for incoming government to resolve if people can give us advice know how the system works of course any Cabinet member is going to be looking at how they can do that all right well another piece of advice to give you is uh he's not clear about it but he pretty um strongly hint that there should be a closer relationship with the EU the Irish Prime Minister Simon Harris uh suggest to Sky news this morning that that this could be the start of a new relationship I just want to show you what he says brexit has happened H the people of Britain have made that decision but absolutely is there space to have a veteranary agreement is there space in terms of student Mobility is there space to work closer together on issues I think there absolutely is and I do think there would be willingness in Europe to have those conversations in due course should that be the wish of the British government that seems to me a pretty clear opening of the door to a renegotiation of at least some aspects of the trade deal um are you going to walk through that door it's your job now well I welcome that constructive attitude from colleagues we were right in the campaign to respect brexit to not revisit those constitutional arguments but when it comes to trade the issue that you've just revealed there in that revealing clip is really standards on food we've got the same standards as the European Union if we can sell more whiskey more salmon to a a market which is so significant to us of course we should explore an opportunity like that and I think moving forward to to be frank a relationship to Europe that is not determined by the internal politics of the conservative party is very much in the National interest in the UK so we're not going to revisit those constitutional arguments but of course where it's in the mutual interest of both the European Union and the UK to work together that good faith relationship has got to to make sense so no re-entry to EU no new referendums or anything like that but it's clear you want a closer relationship with the EU well I think on things like um food and agricultural products agreement when we've got the same standards removing some of those barriers to trade that makes sense we' have talked for instance about recognizing each other's professional qualifications again completely sensible pragmatic you know if you are in the creative Industries you've really suffered in your ability to move around the European Union in terms of the restrictions on that these are practical things and actually we have seen a little bit under the last government we saw the reassociation with Horizon the science agreement and the Winds of framework so clearly the basis is there to do that and I welcome constructive colleagues it's interesting because you've named three or four things there and put together this sounds like the development of a new deal I mean to some extent what Rich Shak tried to do but actually you seem to be saying that there is space here for a new and uh more open relationship with the EU they're going to ask for something they're going to ask for migration are you are you open to that free movement of people well I don't think we should preempt that negotiation we're not open to the free free movement of people that is something which is part of membership of the European Union and as I said we're not revisiting that so it's not about that let's be clear as well these are things that I think are in the UK's interest they're also in the eu's interest that doesn't mean it's an easy negotiation but of course we should always be seeking to to make those opportunities real for everyone across the UK all right they what happened on Thursday was in many ways historic records broken all over the place but some of it is is also personal can I ask about um one of your former Shadow cabinet colleagues Jonathan Ashworth who I think actually I've interviewed on Sunday mornings even more times than you um did you feel his absence at yesterday's uh first cabinet meeting because he lost his seat surprisingly I did um not Jonathan a long time he put in a credible service to the campaign um maybe to his own personal cost in that way and of course to be in a political system where you can win a landslide get that mandate but lose very close colleagues that that is British politics is tough like that on a personal level really you know someone who' given so much and has a lot to give and I hope can we can find a role that will allow him to continue to do that one of the reasons I ask is that he lost his seat in Leicester South uh we don't know yet but it is thought partly because of if you like some ethnic rivalries which is something that's popped up elsewhere within uh the labor campaign and in some Birmingham seats the labor vote was depressed particularly in places where there's a large Muslim population is this going to be an issue for labor well look we would take the loss of any support seriously you know of course there's a lot to digest from a set of results where I don't think we've ever really had a general election quite like it in terms of the diversity of contests across every bit of the UK so of course there's a lot to to digest from that take on I would say we will always as Kia made clear the new prime minister made clear we will always put country first party second sometimes there are tough things you you were hit by the Gaza protest basically look I really understand people's frustration there are particularly younger people in Britain not just confined to one Community by the way this is across the board they've never seen a real peace process in the Middle East they're frustrated they see you know the difficulties that causes real problems on both sides incredible human suffering of course they're frustrated by that what I hope we can now do as a government is show real leadership on the world stage to a real solution to that conflict now I think to be honest people want they want to see that progress rather than the words behind it and I I do understand that and think we can contribute to that the other thing that's happened uh of course is that you've made these appointments um prime minister brought in experts like uh s Patrick Valance um but as I said we're we're seeing the return of some veterans let's call it from the Blair era Jackie Smith Alan Milburn um how can I put this delicately prime minister had 411 MPS to choose from are none of them good enough to do these jobs no it's not about that I mean look I think my generation of Labor MPS can hold our heads High in terms of returning labor to power and what has happened particularly in the last Parliament when people of my intake and age you know came to the four in the shadow cabinet as it then was but we're very much aware that if you can bring in experience of government if you know people who can make a difference Douglas Alexander will join my team for instance as the trade Minister the former Brown Minister incredible expertise incredible career outside of parliament since he left um after what happened in that election of course you want to use that and I think actually that's a sign of strength that you can bring in that kind of expertise and confidence you've got to do that all right let's let's talk about strength you start with this thumping majority uh which is you would say is your mandate for change but let's remember 2third of the voters did not choose you um does that really give you the authority to impose what the minority that backed you want on the majority and let me just make it very specific the MPS that support your government got less than 24,000 votes for each seat yet it took half a million votes to elect a green mp uh over 800,000 to elect a reform MP is that really a fair system well first of all labor has a clear mandate we the first political party in a generation you've got a lot of MPS You' got two third of the MPS elected with onethird of the vote the first political party in a generation to win a majority of seats in England Wales and Scotland that is no small achievement our system is about seats I've been here after elections where we can say oh we piled up votes in a small number of places that's not how British general elections work I think it's really important to say that you know there are results in the past that are similar to this I don't think you can say a system is unfair just because one side wins it and this was our strateg the fact it was unfair in the past doesn't make it any better than it's unfair now but let's just be clear labor has a mandate to govern there can be no questions around that I would also say when it comes to parties like reform and the Green Party they do get far less scrutiny because they're not seen as parties of government are going to elect significant numbers now maybe that should change think that's something to address I know I met a lot of good people in this campaign who told me they were voting reform when you explain to them they support in reform the economic policies of Liz trust and the foreign policies of Vladimir Putin they're horrified so you know now they're in Parliament they'll get the level of scrutiny they deserve yeah but look I I'm not being part of I don't want to be partisan here this is an issue about democracy let me show you this this chart um and I think most Fair minded people would ask themselves is this really right you got 33.7% of votes not far off what you got last time uh less the uh than you got under Corbin when you got spanked um but you got two thirds nearly of the seats um the lib Dems down there they they they are more or less okay but reform on the greens not less than 1% of the seats but reform one in seven votes greens 7% I'm just asking you really as a Democrat rather than as a government minister is that really sustainable well look I have talked in the past about my own views on this sort of thing but I would say when you've got a system you run your campaign to win under that system now you can't then look at it through a different lens you know we have had elections in the past where labor has had these extraordinary majorities in a small number of places that's not good enough we are not a party of of protest or you can't look at vote especially when people vote tactically that's part of the system under the first pass of the post we had to get a mandate to government to replace this failing former failing conservative government we've done that and I think you've got to recognize that the campaign will reflect the system required to get that mandate to win let me put you something that's happening right across Europe and that is in a way the advance of what people call uh nationalist populism let me ask you first question specifically about about Labor how do it feel to be indebted to Nigel farage for the size of your Victory because this only happened really because he divided the vote and the right no again I reject that I think the idea that somehow if the conservative party with its record would simply have seen votes transfer automatically to labor as the alternative that isn't how it happens labor had to earn the right to be the party that could win this election and that was not something that happened by accident it happened with K st's leadership okay so the idea that someone else is the act agent in that happening I'm sorry no it is down to labor and being a party willing to acknowledge its defeat we all the toss about the numbers but I just wanted to ask you lastly about something that's happening today which is I think relevant tonight Marine Le Pen will probably become the leader of the largest party in France is Parliament uh with a bigger share of the vote in France and you won here are you looking forward to negotiating with uh a new trade relationship with France with the EU under Madame leen's leadership well you know I'm going to say any election in France is down to the people of France to decide that I would say more generally it's wrong to think of trade relationships and trade treaties in particular as being with the political leadership at any one time of a country where that is in France whether that is in the USA those are long-term relationships that outlive if you do them properly whoever is in charge at any one moment it's about two countries not sets of political leaders and the long-term National interest will always be what we're putting for forward in trade policy from a new labor government okay Secretary of State for business and trade thank you very much indeed thank you let's see what our panel made of all that we're joined all morning by the former labor adviser and K starm biographer Tom Baldwin the editor of spectator Fraser Nelson and the chief executive of chattam house bronwin madx um Tom Tony Blair's intervention this morning can't keep him out the papers can you was it helpful I think it's probably intended as helpful be taken as such Tony Blair knows quite a lot about winning elections he's part of that now very exclusive Club slightly less exclusive Club than before there used to be just three labor leaders who'd won elections now there's four K Dharma so his advice is important and it'll be well received and what he Des it could be given privately couldn't it look what he's describing is what everyone knows that this election which has given labor huge majority has also churned up the Electoral Battlefield and there are new challenges facing k d now right you're having to fight on a number of different fronts you're having to fight a populist far right with Nigel farage a phenomenon we're seeing right across Europe and in America too you're having to fight on the left FR flank on issues including Gaza you're having to fight probably in new territory in the blue wall when you bringing in planning reforms and you've got a lot of Labor MPS blue wall being Southern constituencies you know slightly middle class slightly countrys sidey type people and you're you know bringing planning reforms in order to get the growth was absolutely essential but you're going to come up against opposition there and so this is you know this is a sort of game of three-dimensional chess you got to play and it's going to be really difficult and if K St is going to turn this gigantic sand castle of the Electoral the Parliamentary majority he's got into something more concrete is going to need advice from people who know how to win elections like Tony Blair Fraser the um the the the phy sand castle comes from um the pollster James kosum who coined red wall um I is this labor majority built on Sand or is it here for a while certainly no no party in our Democratic history has got so many seats from so few votes when you look at the vote share this is the least popular government we've had pretty much since the introduction of universal franchise but then again you got to take iCal voting I see this as basically a labor majority built on exasperation with the conservatives I think K starmer's opportunity is to turn this into a genuinely pro- labor majority as opposed to an anti-tory majority he can do that by achievement and so far I have to say it's pretty encouraging look at West treating straight out the traps the first few hours in the job he declares the NHS to be broken and needing reform getting in Alan Milburn proven NHS reformer as his adviser and and so we see and then also to me the most fascinating appointment I think is James timson there head of f timson um he's a guy who's a proven um reformer in prisons he believes that a third of prisoners shouldn't really be there at all he's coming in as prison ministers this is these are people who want to make change now kir starmer probably would have wanted to do change in his second term all things being equal but when you look at this election result this shows an electorate never have so few people and placed to Faith from one of the two main parties so the anti-tory anger could turn into anti- labor anger in a second unless you manage to deliver that means doing a whole bunch of unpopular things early on and using this huge majority into genuinely an agenda for change so there's an interesting picture BR this not um how how long is the honeymoon going to last Monday morning Monday morning um and they were right to get going on Saturday um just uh as soon as K sta had appointed his cabinet they know and this is the source I think of the unease hanging over these celebrations they know that this was a really unusual election result uh uh 2third share of the seats or based on one-third share of the votes roughly and Tony Blair has put his finger on some of the problems many of the problems but that's not hard to do I think K St and his team are right across that the question is the solutions and I was not entirely convinced by Tony Blair's big solution at the end which is to turn to AI uh in the public sector in the private sector and get AI to run government departments much more cheaply um if only there were a magic one like that um as K starmer's team knows this is a slog beginning on Monday if not now uh beginning with the NHS but then they want growth and uh yet they're stuck as the that chart shows uh the big source of growth might well be the EU but anything they do on the EU um begins to sound like freedom of movement was really interesting that interested that Jonathan rolds didn't get close to mentioning the deal that the EU would like on freedom of movement uh for 18 to 30 year olds really popular with young people um didn't get close to it because it sounds like freedom of movement again one one of the things that K st's advisor has been studying really closely in the last few weeks is experience of other Center and Center left governments around the world and they think I think that Joe Biden's Administration when it came in made a mistake by appearing too soft on immigration and that has then undercut efforts they've made subsequently to you know toughen their stance I think they think that uh Schultz's government in Germany probably made a mistake in turning Net Zero into a green issue rather an issue about energy security so they are looking at how governments perhaps similar in sort of political Outlook to karmas can better WEA these sort of popular storms than some of those around the world well actually uh on the question of migration uh Blair as as always has a phrase for it if you don't have rules then you end up with prejudice which I suspect we're going to hear a lot of over the next period do you think Fraser that this is this governments going to get a grip of this of course and if this is happening already I mean immigrant immigration is coming down very very quickly and that's because the last conservative government slammed the emergency breakes on the Visa and conditions they tighten them up so there's a couple of things that kir starm is going to be able to point to because they're baked in already one is NHS waiting list they're going to be coming down very quickly by December that's the the forecast of same with net migration is going to be coming down very quickly living standards are going to be rising because inflation is forecast to stay at 2% for a long time so these are three kind of achievements which will have been done by Tory reforms which he will now get the credit for now that's politics but I think the we actually genuinely have taken back control of immigration rules if the conserv governments will change the Visa of things and and labor tighten them even more of course it can be as low as you realistically want so I don't I think that will come to be seen as one of kir starmer's great achievements even though it it won't be him but there are rules are plenty and for the first time in in 40 or 50 years the UK government has got complete control of those immigration rules do you think um hearing the tone in Simon Harris's uh interview um what what do you think the eu's body language is going to be towards this new government are they going to be uh warmer given that of course elsewhere in on the continent the political direction is exactly away from the center left it's going to be very Smiley but that doesn't mean that it's very different in substance and even though you say you know many countries in Europe appear to be tilting right that is because of the same pressures on immigration that Britain is facing that the US is facing that pretty well every richer country is facing whether it's because of people's aspiration or fear or flight from war and hunger so I don't think those pressures are going to go away uh the last government did do a couple of things that were effective particularly saying students couldn't bring their families which produced a very rapid drop in um immigrants from from India and Nigeria as we begun to see in University figures but uh it's a really really difficult problem and I don't think uh there's a single solution um again I don't to bring Tony Blair too much into it but his one of his Technical Solutions again to how this might solve a big problem was a digal ID digital ID and I can see that labor might be tempted by that feeling that that's that's a really good point here because identity cards rep bl's Obsession last time in government now of course right now he is a businessman British politics has never had somebody as powerful and with as much money as the Tony Blair Institute and right now I imagine a great number of his his colleagues will be making the way as special advisors in for labor government but that's going to be the real Blair influence we'll find out how many eventually I suspect we're not told but right now if you look at whose funding Blair his backers and the digital ID industry are wanting him to advance this policy and he's doing it straight away what exactly would you call his business well we will come back we will come back to all of this and also I want to ask Tom about farage but it is just after 9:00 you're watching Sunday morning with Trevor Phillips the business secretary told this program that labor does have a plan on immigration following an intervention by Tony Blair that the government needs a plan Jonathan Reynolds said he welcomed the words of the Irish Prime Minister that any proposals from K starma for re for renegotiations with the EU would receive a fair hearing well there's plenty to say around for this morning and shortly we'll turn to the future of the conservative party and speak to the former Chancellor Nadim zahawi then we'll reflect on the extraordinary election with one of the country's leading pollsters ipof chief executive Ben paage and we'll look at the decimation of the SNP at Westminster with one of their defeated former MPS Joanna Cherry plus we'll hear from the tsuk Simon Harris uh who has warm words for karma over a possible closer relationship with the EU well conservatives here are often described as the most successful political party in the Democratic World holding power for much of the last 150 years now they sit in opposition after a devastating result their share of the vote nationally down to less than 24% they're left with just 121 members of parliament well it's a natural part of our system that governments have slung out after a long time in power but to many this feels a period of existential threat as millions of Voters abandon the party to left and to right so how does it regroup and what will the party look like in years to come well I'm joined Now by aor big beast and the former Chancellor Nadim zahawi good morning good morning former Chancellor I suppose I've got to call you now um look you lost it you lost yes we is this an extinction level event for the Tories it is pretty catastrophic um to go from 365 MPS down to 121 is pretty um shocking but I do think that we have an opportunity to regroup why do I say that because I think if you look at the MPS that remain today we've got some serious talent in the conser party that is still in Parliament and I am hopeful that they will come together because for too many years for far too long um we formed a circular firing squad um and that is what the electorate saw and therefore they reacted and they reacted quite rightly by throwing us out of power you um announced many months ago that you were leaving the House of Commons um but perhaps is it's an indication of sh shattering a blow this is for uh your party that not a single senior serving uh member of the conservative party uh parliamentary party would volunteer to speak for the party this morning that I don't think I've ever remember being in a situation where a senior um no senior person wanted to come on the Telly couple things one they're probably exhausted um and I don't think you would nobody's ever too exhausted to to take 10 minutes I hear you but in front of an audience if you've been running a campaign to get reelected as Jeremy Hunt has uh been able to do uh and I congratulate him on an excellent campaign he stay in his constituency it was um really a massive endorsement of his performance as a member of Parliament and that's at the end of day what we all are well steady on he scraped home and and by the way he for example has already said he's not running for the leadership and it's but it's striking you know okay Penny moren's out she's not saying anything all the people who we think of as potential leaders Bok tugen har um the but bra Braverman and sa on all silent this morning what's going on but it is Sunday morning after a bruising Thursday and Friday yeah I mean basically with a lot of these actually lock the doors to stop from coming in the studio what's going on I'll tell you I I suspect the very senior ones are working out uh whether they're going to run or not for the leadership U if they are going to run they'll be putting their teams together uh over the weekend um on I think Monday the party board will meet um of course then the 1922 has to be reconstituted a new chairman of the 1922 will have to be elected because gr Brady because gr Brady obviously down stood down so there's a lot going on uh and forgive me I know you're sure show is incredibly important as you you you you it's part of the Constitution you came to me last night and quite rightly I I said I would I I would come on on the program so so I I I wouldn't read too much into why you couldn't get anyone senior because you remember they' they've been fighting their seeds and they're now having to sort of sit back and think about you know what they do next all right look um nobody's watching so we can speak privately um who who would you like to see as an next leader I I would have thought for example you might be a cleverly man well at this stage I think the most important thing um whoever comes forward is they come forward with a plan of how to unite the party uh bring us back together as I say I think the biggest challenge for us is unity and I think the the the lesson if we haven't leared it yet uh then we really will be in trouble is that we have to present a united front to the country Rishi suffered you badly in the campaign because there were sort of voices from from his own party coming out against whether it's the campaign or pre-campaign um before him you know what happened right with with with uh Boris well that's interesting so I think in many ways our greatest challenge now is how do we unite the party we we we've always had those who were left and center right this this is very interesting because it feels to me like that rules out certain people so for example SW braan who decided to go into the newspapers the day before the vote to say how rubbish the campaign had been if you think about uniting and all the rest of it doesn't feel like it to me uh there are other candidates people talk about K bedok as somebody who can start a fight in an empty room it sounds like you're already narrowing down the the the potential uh list of uh of candidates here you are trying very hard to get me to come out and uh either well you you either criticize or attack my colleagues I'm not going to okay I'll ask you a serious question about this what what let's not name names but what does the next leader of the conservative party from your point of view look like what are the qualities that person's going to have so in you that's the right question to ask why do I say that because if you look at um what has just happened and is he enough uh in your earlier discussion with Jonathan Reynolds um Tony Blair wasn't the first to home in on the immigration issue it was alist Campbell on the night because I was with him on another station um on Election night and he asked the question immediately of both Rachel Reeves uh and the new Home Secretary Cooper Because unless they have a plan for uh migration as a whole um you are going to see um uh uh labor come under huge pressure especially in those red wo Seas you look at where reform we're heading and it's easy to have a sort of you know simplistic answer to this by by by someone like Nigel farage but it's potent now what are what what are the lessons for us we've got to draw lessons um from what we've done well um so if you look at the pandemic the vaccine deployment that went well why did it go well it wasn't just you know and I I take very little credit for this is my team but also more importantly bringing outside expertise what has done well is James timson uh Patrick Valance bringing outside expertise to help deal with some of these big issues how is he going to deal with immigration will be a huge test for him okay so that's the that's one of the answer look um there's going to be a Spectra at the Tory feast and that Spectre is called Nigel farage the new father of the house the longest serving MP Edward Lee said yesterday that you should appeal to reform voters and that you should bring Nigel farage into the party now when when you were last in this studio you said not a chance but after Thursday's results they took 14.3% uh of the vote they essentially deprived the Tories of a majority have you changed your mind no I tell you what we need to do uh is appeal to reform voters and to Li them voters let's not forget that yes of course um the reason for the labor majority is uh reform doing so well uh in England especially um you know Labor's vote went backwards in Wales yet they've got this massive majority the other reason of course they had a great campaign in Scotland under Anna sa and the S&P collapsed um but we need to appeal to the remember libd has got 72 seats yeah they've taken many many seats from us including my own in Stratford on aen so this idea that if all we need to do is deal with the issues around reform so immigration migration is not enough I think we have to do both we have to be able to appeal to stra aians and say come back to us here's why here's why we we deserve your vote and uh the red wall seats to say we will have dealt with immigration uh and labor can't all right we can see the Contours of the argument that going to take place in the conservative party thank you so much for joining us this morning great to see you well I am sure there's going to be plenty of talk about the future of the conservatives in coming weeks and months and that along with everything else at this historic moment will be on the agenda on politics at Jack and Sam's podcast which is out every Sunday looking to the week ahead you can scan the QR code on your screen now to listen And subscribe it's free wherever you get your podcasts well let's reflect on that extraordinary election from a few days ago now and try to understand what it means in our politics I'm joined Now by a old friend the chief executive of polter's ipsos uh Ben Page Ben we have been having this conversation for more time than any us like to decades that how how uh how big a deal is what happened on Thursday well I mean it's it's extraordinary isn't it particularly that the conservatives go to their lowest ever number of seats uh since what 1906 I mean that that is astonishing at one level uh the Reform Party getting more votes than the liberal Democrats but only getting five MPS um you know so it's a it's shown the vagaries of our system but at the same time I actually think it's it's the result in terms of a large labor majority is what most people in this country actually wanted and I would say that by saying if you look at okay only 33.7% of the registered voters voted labor but basically it was an election about kicking the conservatives out right and if you look at the fundamentals on every single policy policy area when you ask the British public whose policies do you prefer labors or the conservatives on every single one except defense uh labor were clearly ahead and in in a toss-up between the two main candidates for prime minister starm and sunak we had 46% of the population so far more than actually registered voters voting for him saying uh starm would be the best prime minister and only 21% for sunak so I think on balance the system it has many flaws It's s the reason there aren't massive riots in the streets is unlike in France uh is that it's broadly giving people what they were what they were hoping for which is change which over seven out of 10 people said they wanted to see I want to come back to ask you about France a second but let's just stick with with this country uh for a moment um one of the things that I think will govern uh K starmer's actions will be how solid he thinks that Bas is now there's this idea this phrase now emerging of the the Sandcastle majority it's big wide but it could be washed away very quickly how constrained do you think he's going to be by that I I to be honest I don't think so because his only chance of now securing uh another term is of course to deliver change to improve Public Services he's going to have to make some very tough decisions they will not pop be popular with everybody in his own party they won't be necessarily popular among the opposition but he's going to have to do that because uh yes the average majority for a labor MP is down but this is how our system works labor have played a Blinder and so did the liberal Democrats in working the the rules uh to their advantage so it's been a very strategic campaign but now there are massive expectations over delivery uh he's got he's made they've boxed themselves in to an extent on taxation although the majority of people believe that both labor or the conservatives in in this parliament in government will have to put up taxes somewhere some somehow so again I'd say the public aren't going to be completely surprised if some taxes have to go up to pay for things but bottom line you know be bold do the delivery because otherwise hedging around is not you know he can't govern the way he campaigned in some ways on the issue of fairness of the vote and we've been talking about you know they took a third of the seats got two third of the vote they got two third of the seats and so on do you think that is going to matter to anybody because uh the greens liberal Democrats and also reform I just fr's party are going to make a big deal of this will they get any traction I to be honest not really I mean I never you know Nigel frage did manage to get the country to have a brexit voter was a very important part of that so I am absolutely fascinated to see Nigel sudden Nigel farage suddenly a big person for PR and um you know maybe in a in a few decades because it did take 30 years or so we will get PR but um no I think most you know we had a referendum a decade or so ago we voted against it I think this will rapidly disappear okay before we go back to our panel um what's going to happen in France tonight you I know you're we're a FR we're a French company and I spend half my time in Paris there's going it looks very likely that there's going to just be a little bit of political chaos so we'll have unusually strong and stable government in Britain and there will be chaos in in France Bron that make sense to you I'm not sure you can have a little bit of chaos but yes that is exactly what it looks like um Tom uh what did you make of Ben's analysis that actually essentially if labor wants a second term it's going to have to be the word is bold uh Peter Manon said to me a few months ago bold also can mean stupid but let's say it's got to they've got to strike out with some less caution than they displayed in the campaign well it's a truism isn't it that you're never more powerful than when you've just been elected but there's also something I've noticed about k d is you would generally start out by doing the obvious straightforward thing and then become progressively more radical for pragmatic reasons so you may need to slightly change his do because I think one of the things that's missing at the moment is a kind of narrative Arc around the change that labor need to make you the the the article the academic article that all circulating these AIDS at the moment is one titled rather an edifying title the death of deliver ISM by a guy called Ben stolo in America and this says that you know many of the great things that Biden's Administration has done in America hasn't delivered to politically to him in terms of getting sort of more votes he's he's he's not he's not showing change in real people's lives even though there's statistics saying he's done lots of great things so how do you get a narrative which connects some of the technocratic stuff some of the good things that you're doing to a sense of Greater happiness and well-being among voters and that's really difficult to do but that's what they thinking about Ben I'm going to come back and ask you what the the the big signal of boldness would be but FR what what do you reckon well NHS reform will be the obvious opportunity even welfare reform easily the biggest problem in Britain if Liz Kendall has got the courage to take that on we might have fewer than five and a half million people in nwor benefits that we do right now that will show that labor radicalism could was brave enough to do two things the Tories couldn't because they felt they lacked permission as it were they felt Tories would never be really be trusted to reform the NHS and they didn't have a time of the courage to reform welfare again now richy I I disagree by the way about deliver ISM I think if rushi sunk had been able to stand up in this election and point to things that he had delivered he'd have a much easier time he was saying in his January 23 speech either I'm delivering for you or I'm not and he gave five pledges five tests and failed four of them now if he had been able to point to things he was genuinely doing he might have been able to say look you might not like me very much but look at the results look at how I'm delivering the complete absence of anything and these imagined things that he was claiming labor were going to do made his whole campaign look ridiculous so I think this is starmer's Major opportunity to DARE where the Tories did not dare Ben I you know you you've covered this and you've followed this for a long long time but one of the things that seemed to me um important about what uh Fraser said was that rich shun could have said I've delivered this and but there's a sense that people had stopped listening to the Tories some time ago uh yes some point and we're back to that Callahan quote from 1979 there Comes A Time whatever you do but I I would I would agree that it's about competence actually even more than ideology so and and but that competence uh has to translate into people which is the point Tom is making people have to notice it uh and so you know taking kid you know making changes in America which Biden has done of course it doesn't feel it's not yet at a scale that people feel it uh and that is that is one of the challenges so the labor government has got to come in and start making some Chang is that you notice when you bring your GP you notice when you go into a hospital and on house building you notice that there are now affordable houses or places to rent uh where you live those are those are massive macro changes it's going to be as every bit as hard as leveling up turned out to be for the conservatives I think Biden has made changes that people are feeling already that the economy is growing at 5% we're barely growing at all here um and and that is leading to confidence in jobs I think it's the southern border that very resonant phrase that now hangs over American politics that has really hurt his chances in this plus uh in the US you can do things because they have the dollar they can borrow apparently without limit at the moment someday that will get real and we saw with LZ trust what happens if the UK If a prime minister tries to be the US uh and borrow an awful lot without without having the dollar but I think uh here I would say uh planning and the NHS are the two things that starma needs to do and probably the thing that would get a feeling of growth going his best chance of getting the growth that Rachel Reeves needs as Chancellor and needs to pay for all the other stuff is planning housing planning and other kinds of planning infrastructure planning where infrastructure needs a lot of investment that is their best their best uh hope I think uh an absolutely essential reform Tom um Rachel Reeves and others have come in here and said planning is the answer we're going to appoint planning more planning offices and so on but that's not going to cut it is it is he Bolding enough to do what prime minister prime minister fail to do which is to face down the nimes I think he will and I think this is absolutely essential to get growth by which otherwise you're going to get make have to make tax Rises or do public spending cuts so he's going to take some really tough decisions lots of people lots of people told me when I was write my biography K make a better prime minister than leader of the opposition he's been a very effective leader of the opposition but what it's all about is getting stuff done and getting some things done rather than pretending you can fix everything all at once is actually the answer the populism you know you know don't go for three-word slog solve everything go for what you can do right now Ben just very quick answer how long a honeymoon does K starma have six months it's tough these days cool all right you've heard it here first after the break some warm word from the Irish Prime Minister Simon Harris about a possible closer relationship with the EU under K starma brexit has happened uh the people of Britain have made that decision but absolutely is there space to have a veteranary agreement is there space in terms of student Mobility uh is there space to work closer together on issues I think there absolutely is and I do think there would be a willingness in Europe to have those conversations in due course should that be the wish of the British government [Music] [Applause] they push the protesters further back here there's around two or 300 still I'm Dan whad and I'm Sky news's West of England correspondent this fan goes onto the streets of Plymouth 7 days a week 365 days a year these facilities at the moment our lifesaber is it's all we've got from fishing communities to bustling cities we spend every day reporting from across the region I'm going to have nowhere to live for about 3 or four months they are coming from the epicenter of what is now a global Health pandemic we were seeing and speaking to young women who were selling themselves right on the High Street before brexit these oysters were being exported to the EU but the trade stopped overnight what's your feeling about the future then Blake you'll be finished I don't know [Music] [Applause] he [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] the new labor government is expected to seek closer ties with the EU perhaps signing fresh deals in areas like Border Protection and trade indeed the papers this morning are all full of talk of a potentially closer relationship the Irish Prime Minister's already spoken to K starma and now he's told Sky News there would be an openness in Brussels to any British proposals and there is space for things like a veteranary agreement our Island correspondent Steven Murphy started by asking Simon Harris about his call for a great reset in anglo-irish relations I think everybody knows the last number of years have been challenging challenging for a variety of reasons and your viewers don't need any history lesson but obviously breit did make life challenging H challenging in relation to the relationship between the two islands how much damage did the Tories do to that look I I don't want to get into into kind of personalizing it like that but there was clear policy differences and difficulties and challenges over over the last number of years I had a had a very good professional relationship with Rishi sunak he was always very cordial to deal with so this for me was never about personality when you spoke to the new prime minister did you ask him when he's going to scrap the Legacy act and what it'll be replaced with I did not but I I did indicate uh the willingness of of my government to work with the British government and with parties in Northern Ireland in relation to Legacy I welcome the commitments uh that the incoming British government has given in relation to replacing uh the Legacy act and presumably you will now or the Irish state will now drop its case against the United Kingdom over the Legacy Act well no I think we need to take this step by step we obviously have in Ferness a British prime minister who's just just about on the door of Downing Street in the last couple of days new ministers who've only been appointed H I'm very respectful of that reality I welcome the commitment uh that the British government has now given in relation to Legacy and let's see where that brings us in the time ahead the conservatives accused your government of hypocrisy on Legacy because of the lack of criminal prosecutions here in the Republic of Ireland for troubles era crimes they had a point Didn't They no and you can see why I'm looking for a reset because I think that sort of inflammatory language doesn't help at all and everybody knows that we went through an extraordinarily difficult time on the island of Ireland everybody knows the pain ER that the troubles and terrorism brought to people from a whole variety of communities and backgrounds do you think this new government will feel more protective of the Good Friday or Belfast agreement given Labor's role and Tony Blair's role in negotiating it well I think there's no doubt that members of the incoming British government have a have a very good sense of Northern Ireland indeed the British prime minister himself very familiar uh with Northern Ireland and I very much welcome the appointment of Hillary Ben as the Northern Ireland Secretary of State a very experienced serious politician who again knows Northern Ireland knows Ireland and knows the importance of the relationship between the two islands and what makes you think that K starmer and his team his cabinet his new government will be any better than what we've seen from London previously what what is it about Kier starma that makes you feel the this optimism well look it's not about me deciding anybody's better than anybody else it's up to the British people to decide who's in their government but what I do is take the British prime minister at his word and he is a man of integrity he has won a comprehensive victory in the election he is now the prime minister of our nearest neighbor and I'm very eager to work with them all the main political parties here in Ireland are in favor of a United Ireland including your own but kir starmer says a referendum on a United Ireland isn't even on the horizon would you agree with that well again I don't think it's any surprise that the British prime minister is a unionist and that the tiak of Ireland wishes H there to be a United Ireland in due course the Good Friday agreement allows us both have those legit at differing aspirations and there's a structure in place to address that for me though the focus and priority isn't on a referendum I know you say it's not a priority but then has the prospect of a border pole moved further away now do you think that this new government has come in I just don't think it arises currently I think I mean the most important thing here is that we have ministers back at their desks in Northern Ireland and that they get on with the work and that the British and Irish governments as co- guarantors of the peace process play our role H in supporting that too something else kis Arma wants to get rid of is the Rwanda policy and your government recently came out and said it was contributing massively to the number of Asylum Seekers coming here to the Republic of Ireland in many cases via Northern Ireland to try and avoid the potential consequences do you welcome him scrapping it do you think that will help mitigate the flow of Asylum Seekers coming here from the United Kingdom my view in relation to the migration policy of any country is it's up to any country to decide its migration policy the legitimate concern that I have and I'm quite sure the British prime minister has um is making sure we protect the common travel area um I mean we have this unique relationship between our two islands between our two countries um in terms of the common travel area where people can move freely and it's so important that the common travel area is always protected H from any abuse if kir starmer as you clearly hope proves to be a good friend to Ireland would you reciprocate by being a strong voice and an ally to the United Kingdom within the European Union because we know he wants to uh have some sort of renegotiation of the trade deal the post brexit deal with the EU could you then reciprocate and be a strong voice for the interests of the United kingom to your partners in Brussels wouldn't that only be fair well irand will always be an ally um of Britain having a closer relationship with the European Union it is obviously important that Britain and the European Union continue to be good neighbors and it is absolutely in Ireland's interest uh that we facilitate that in every way we can around any European table like Britain and Ireland share a very similar perspective on many issues um and I absolutely think should it be the position of the British government in the time ahead that it wishes to improve relations or it wishes to have closer relations in any area where it makes practical sense of course Ireland will be an ally in that conversation do you think there'll be any willingness from Brussel to renegotiate that deal though because it was always a bit of a red line previously do you think maybe not the whole agreement but certain elements within a perhaps Veterinary Arrangements things like that that may ease the issue of the IRC border do you think there's from your discussions in Brussels there would be any kind of openness to an approach from Kier starmer and his government I do absolutely think there would be a fair hearing for any proposal that the British government or indeed that the EU has about ironing out practical issues in terms of having a a relationship that works you know brexit has happened and the people of Britain have made that decision but absolutely is there space to have a Veterinary agreement is there space in terms of student Mobility is there space to work closer together on issues I think there absolutely is and I do think there would be a willingness in Europe to have those conversations in due course should that be the wish of the British government teach are you supporting England in the Euros I wish England very well in in the Euros um and uh and I know the British we now have a British prime minister who is a who is a uh is it fair to call him a fanatical football fan but certainly certainly a very significant football fans I wish England very well the British Irish relationship is really strong and and let me say this politics aside and the challenges of Politics the end of the day we're neighbors we're friends in many cases we're family as well and there's an opportunity now a real opportunity that we must seize and that the next generation will never forgive us for if we don't to press reset to say yes it's it's been a difficult few years but you know what we have so much more in common than divides us we have so many issues of mutual concern we are two islands side by side let's work together and let's fulfill the promise of the Good Friday agreement and a good Friday agreement that I know is very much in the DNA of the British labor party uh and it's something that I really really want to talk to to K armer about coming up just how bad are things now for the SNP following a devastating set of results on Thursday night I'll speak to one one of the party's leading figures who lost her seat Joanna cherry [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] one of the biggest stories from the election was a devastating result for the SNP the party is down to single figures of MPS with dozens of seats lost Scottish labor took most seats and now has 36 MPS after the scandals and tumult engulfing the the SNP in the last two years a bad result was to be expected but the scale of the defeat has shocked many so what happens next and what does it mean for the independence cause one of the party's leading figures Jonah Cherry lost her seat and she joins me now morning Jonah good morning Trevor um 72 hours ago the S&P held 48 seats at Westminster now you've got nine what happened well I mean I think clearly the story of the night is Labor's Landslide albe it it's a achieved on quite a small percentage of the vote I think about a third of the vote across the UK although In fairness to labor their vote went up very significantly in Scotland personally in my former constituency of Edinburgh Southwest I saw as soon as the postal votes were opened and as the night progressed a collapse in the Tor vote and I could see the Tor vote moving over to labor but we also lost SNP votes and it was difficult to persuade people to vote SNP in this election many many constituents of my former constituent said to me on the doorstep I would vote for you Joanna but I just can't vote SNP this time and I think two things have really happened to the party first of all our core support and people who believe passionately in the cause of Scottish independence and remember if you ask opinion polls show regularly that about 50% of people in Scotland support the idea that Scotland should become an independent nation state but that core support was very disillusioned at the party's failure to progress the cause of Independence uh and failure to take advantage of some of the opportunities that were presented to US during The brexit Saga and also during the Boris Johnson Premiership and on the other hand there were a lot of people who in the past have voted for us in Scotland who didn't necessarily support Independence but saw us as a strong and competent government H I was going to ask you yes competent and also a party that governed with integrity and I'm very afraid to say I'm not ashamed because it's not my it's not down to me but I am afraid to say and ashamed for my party that both our reputation of governing competently and our reputation for integrity that we are different from what went before has taken a severe battering in the last couple of years am I right then in saying that you think that current leadership which is basic continuity Nicholas sturon lacks competence and integrity no um I think it's not fair to blame the people who were left holding the baby when Nicholas sturgeon suddenly resigned John swiy has only been in post I think for a couple of months and most of that time has been taken up with what was an unexpectedly early general election campaign and if anyone could bring the SNP together and resolve issues then you might argue it would be John swiny because he's so widely respected in the party I've known John since we were teenagers and the young Scottish nationalists and in Edinburgh in the late' 70s and he has very widespread support and respect in the party but if he is to maintain that support he is going to have to acknowledge the enormity of this setback and address the reasons why it happened and can those reasons to some extent be summed up into word Nicholas sturgeon and does she owe your colleagues the 38 who lost their seats and the voters an apology I think she does I don't think you can ever blame a setback like this on one person however Nicholas sturgeon was a very strong leader who broed no debate and no dissent as I know to my considerable cost uh and um she ran the party the way that she wanted it she inherited an incredible Legacy from Alex Ammon and after the independence referendum where although we had lost the independence referendum we had Advanced support for it very considerably um she was elected on a way she was reelected as first minister in a wave of optimism as we were those of us who were elected in 2015 when the SNP got 56 out of the then 59 Scottish seats and then thereafter she was presented with a series of opportunities after the brexit referendum um and during the particularly the early years with Boris Johnson's Premiership before he got his majority in 2019 that ought to have been able to have been exploited to forward the further the cause of Independence and there has been a huge strategic failure to do that and there has also been a failure to win over those who were as yet unconvinced of the merits of the cause now when the SNP was writing high it was because we were seen as competent people started to have more confidence in the idea that Scotland could be a self-governing nation because the SNP had performed competently H rout I also get the point that you get the sense that you o think this is also an issue of the character of the sturgeon government you as it were fell out with her about a number of things but including the issue of uh gender recognition and so on did you feel that in the end you were basically excluded and shut out of absolutely I mean very in the in recent years I've been associated with being a Critic of self-identification not a Critic of trans rights I myself am a lesbian I'm a human rights lawyer of course I support human rights for everyone and equality for everyone what I don't support is the right of any man to self-identify as a woman with next to no safeguards and my views on that are in line with public opinion in Scotland but what happened with the gender recognition Reform Act in Scotland with the SNP is a microcosm of everything that was wrong with Nicola's leadership it was an ill thought through policy that was never debated or voted for on the floor of the SNP conference uh legitimate uh concerns were dismissed those who had legitimate concerns were demonized and we failed to take the public with us that is a microcosm of how she governed long before I fell out with Nicola about G about gender recognition reform I made myself very unpopular by suggesting that our independent strategy needed to be needed to be looked at and discussed and I felt she was I felt that she was reversing us very slowly up a blind alley on the independent is the outcome of all this just very briefly that independent is on the shelf for a while well I wouldn't say that uh I think it's important to understand that it seems that support from the SNP has become decoupled from those who support Independence okay it wasn't a big issue on the doorsteps during the election campaign okay but I think it would be foolish for the incoming labor government and certainly foolish for incoming new Scottish labor MPS to assume that the Constitutional question is off the table in Scotland okay by the way just quick yes on another question are you going to be standing for Hollywood R next time around well I'm going to take some time to think about what I'm going to do so I'm not ring anything in or out at the moment J the Cherry thank you very much for your time this morning thank you back with our panel next [Music] it was a tough decision and we normally would not interfere we would normally absolutely let nature take its course um but we were seeking advice from oxre experts and we became aware of this opportunity a really unique opportunity actually to translocate these chicks to a conservation program in Spain which would bolster um the Spanish Osprey population and we we waited to see if the father Louie would return with um with more fish and up his game because he normally he C he catches four or five fish every day and he has caught up to nine so we were getting very concerned when when nothing was coming in um and we left it for 24 hours um still nothing we left other 24 hours still nothing no P eventually he produced One Fish which is just simply not enough to keep the family going the weather as you can see on on the film there was horrendous and that makes fishing difficult we suspect he was Ill um and that's why um he wasn't able to bring in his normal catch rate um and then so what we did was we decided we made a tough call we decided we would kind of hand feed supplementary feed um for 24 hours to see if the situation would improve and it didn't and this happened twice um and eventually we decided to be very pragmatic um about it and we decided this opportunity was too good to waste and we would um you know get the checks out of the nest and hand them over in the hope that there would be better chances of survival for them and for the parent birds as well yes what's going to happen well interestingly um he he's we think he's been out we think he's been on well but actually in the past 24 hours we've seen him back around the nest we've seen him fetching enormous branches and moving them which is a a good sign and we've even seen him bring a fish in so we think he's on the men um we've also interestedly seen another male hovering around the nest probably trying to um interest daugh the female but um so far she's not taken any interest whatsoever and I don't think that she will so we we just we don't really know what's going to happen with nature we never ever do um we just kind of have to wait and see but you can jump online and and watch the activity we've got this marvelous community of people who come in and um and update people who want to get to know the story a bit better [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] all back with our panel Tom Baldwin Fraser Nelson and bronwin Maddox um Fraser jna Cherry took aim at Nicholas sturgeon there right yes those two are famously enemies especially over the gender issue but I think a lot of SNB activists realize that incumbency being in power in Scotland has really hurt the S SMP in the same way hurt the conservatives in the same way by the way it's hurting macron and Joe Biden I mean being in power right now means you get hammered at elections that's a worldwide theme and I think in Scotland we've seen a verdict on the s&b's performance which all of a sudden is not overcome as it was in the past by the idea of it there's a referendum just around the corner Nicholas ston did her best to keep her trips warm to think just hang with me guys another couple of years we're going to Freedom's going to be there that dream faded and when it did you had the s&b's record which is atrocious on their record is public services I mean for the first time in living memory education in Scotland is worse than in England um Health performance is Dreadful and there are so many things that in government Scots are absolutely Furious about and that Fury is now beginning to express itself in political Rebellion uh Bron when um Simon Harris seemed quite warm to to the idea of a reset of this new government though there's not much sign that the new government is going to take some radical new position on the EU quite warm captures it exactly I think um a lot of smiles a lot of sense of this isn't the party that did brexit all right there's a chance for a bit of a reset and then everyone rattles out the same list of things which are frankly quite small the famous Veterinary agreement is is basically about food stuffs so agreeing that Britain and its Continental um neighbors are not trying to poison each other with with sausages or whatever but it's it doesn't amount to an awful lot of trade students all right but some of the big things again like the the young people freedom of movement that the EU would really like 18 to 30 olds uh all these headlines in the Italian press recently of goodbye London the Barista is going home you know that's what the EU would like and you're not seeing a lot of a lot of businesses would like some sort of new negotiation would they would like that so I think the first thing we're going to hear is actually on defense uh we've got the NATO Summit next week and then we've got the European political Community uh big meeting of nearly 50 leaders that um kmer is going to be hosting in Britain and that's where they'll start to explore these things but I think we'll hear a lot about defense defense cooperation intelligence cyber cooperation that kind of thing because that's easy ground there is common purpose there but not much on the economy there's not we shouldn't expect much change on the TR they will try but the things that they're talking about which are real are still comparatively small uh compared to the benefits that Britain has lost from leaving the EU Tom let me show you all something here is um people keep referring to 1997 let's have a look at what happened in the first 100 days of Tony Blair's Administration first a in office by the equivalent of tomorrow morning in fact we knew this morning that they'd given the bank of England independent big big deal which still re uh still echoing today ban on handguns uh within weeks ceasefire in Northern Ireland um the point I really want to make is not to sort of make a a false and silly comparison but that aside from the issues of e economics the Blair government took some steps which were if you like nonfinancial to Define it we're not seeing that with this government are we I think you will and you're right the things that what all those things have in common is they didn't cost money we' heard by way Devolution of Scotland Wales SC going to say that was one of the big early ones and partial reform of the House of Lords was an early one again not costing money but it's a constitutional change that stays with us today and and I think I think that's important you you we've had so much in this election about tax and spend and growth and so that's important but you know the it you don't get changes of government very often in this country this is only the fourth in half a century and you get a whole lot of new faces with new ideas and it does Electrify whiteall Westminster and Beyond and I think you will see know what those ideas are it's all a bit opaque I think I I don't think that's true I think you'll see over the next few days announcements on planning reform announcements on you know new workers rights announcements on new standards in public life you you know standards of public life is one way to bring change which actually isn't about living standards it's about changing the way we do politics and you there's something about this team that K St has put together which I think are very different to the governments we've had in recent years there is not that swaggering entitlement that arrogance that people saw during you know the covid you know lockdown laws which being broken the SAS the appointments to the House of Lords the money this is a group of people who have generally been underestimated most of their life and they proved people wrong there's a scrappiness and there's an edge to them are it's true of K sta are it's true of Rachel Reeves are think it's true of people like West streeting and the amazing Back stories here and that is one of the big dynamics of this government there is a drive and a desire to prove themselves we say that but is there a danger frer that you know all these amazing things are suddenly going to be revealed in the next seven days and and put this down to you know bitter interviewer who never got got anything out of his interviews we didn't hear any of this in the campaign and is there a danger that suddenly if there these things are as radical as you make them out to be they get unloaded Bank of England people say we didn't vote for that we didn't hear about Bank of Independence I mean you know well they have talked about planning reform they have talked about workers right so I mean it's hiding in plain sight no I do expect there to be a whole bunch of things but then again you'd expect it I mean I I don't think that kir termer genuinely has got no ideas for government although he didn't really give us any in the campaign you can have rather hope that he does have an agenda which he's going to reveal and by the way he he basically asked for a blank slate from the electorate and he got that blank slate he can now write onto that whatever he wants I'd be rather disappointed if he didn't use this incredible power that he's got yeah I noticed yesterday he employed what I call the Rose Garden strategy by in his speech saying you know what I didn't actually promise you anything except it's going to be tough and so don't ask don't have any expectations but actually one thing that is interesting character of the cabinet here's something that that really struck me now I'm you know I'm not a big class Warrior but what's really striking is if you look at the numbers there obviously conservatives tend to be more privately educated but even under Blair and brown a third of the cabinet were privately educated today 4% it's a striking thing isn't it is that going to change the conversation around the table I think it's about is what I've just said about people who have felt sort of underestimated sometimes look down upon some you yeah Rachel Reeves talks about spending her childhood be impossible Bo at chess right Bridget philipson was brought up by a single mother on benefits you know K St is the most workingclass leader late party's had for a generation now does that make a difference in policy maybe not but I think it makes a difference in the character of the government you know there is a sense of you know we are this is not a game this is not something we Swagger around Westminster to do this is something that matters they want to bring change that can be a huge strength to them but not if it feels like class war not one one quick fun fact for you there are more people in the uh C in the pals now who were in Gordon Brown's cabinet five than we're in Boris Johnson's cabinet make that that what you will that's it for us next week see you next week 08:30 [Music]