Episode 102: Expert Series - Aaron Whybrow, Mortgage Broker

[Music] hello and welcome back to another episode of for the property investor podcast and we're here with our our expert series and we have uh certainly got an expert with us today Aaron wbr from strategic mortgage brokers hello Aaron how you going there Owen it's good to be on the podcast thank you thank you I've been chasing you down for a while to try and get on um you're a busy man helping um all of our uh property investors out there um buy investment properties all over the country so um yeah glad to have you on now so that we can find out more about what's happening in The Lending space for investors and um how um and how how you go about helping your clients but let's start off um first of all of um bit about your backstory how you started as a mortgage broker and why yeah so uh I became a mortgage breaker back in 2012 and it was really from a trigger of um needing I needed a little extra money on the side I was still working full-time at the time and um I went through a problem where um I wasn't a few years before that I wasn't really educated in the finance space and I was actually not even in finance so um uh and I was able to get a bit more educated in finance and then I found that there was some ISS issues and errors in my own Finance so I was able to go back and correct all those um and then become a mortgage broker get a little bit of extra money on the side and then it's turned into a full-blown career and business at the same time before I was a mortgage broker I was selling medical equipment and I was an intensive care nurse so very different field um to where I am right now uh so yeah I've any cross any crossover skills from there to now yeah it's it's the conception it's the concepts of the crossover skills so um it's it's how we approach a client so uh today a client might come to me with some documentation a story and some goals that they want to do and then there's these other things called some numbers on the page that we need to assess and analyze so with the concept over back in say nursing times you get onto a shift you walk into the ward and you've got these things called numbers on a screen you've got some documents in front of you like your supporting documents there's people and a patient in the bed telling you a story and there may not necessarily be their goal is to get out of Hospital obviously but there's a story there's supporting documents and there's numbers and and and it's just how you interpret them differently so uh in the ICU it's interpreting whether you need the resuscitation trolley in the finance world you're determining whether you need to escalate a file because there's a financial cool off or something different going on T typically not really life threatening when we're dealing with numbers it's usually just a timing thing so that's it's conceptually it's changed a little bit selling uh the medical devices um everyone sells uh whether you're selling to your child or you're selling to um partner or anyone to be able to do something it's the same having those skills in in business to sell um and do your skill in trade is is a good thing as well so from nursing to selling to mortgage breaking very interesting I've um um known a lot of mortgage brokers in my time um I used I used to be one myself and um so um but I've never known uh one to come from um that nursing and medical uh background to mortgage broking so quite interesting but um um yeah so so you you started in 2012 Y and um it was a bit of a side hustle side gig and um and how did it progress from there yeah so it's interesting back in in 2012 through to sort of 20145 we were at sort of interest rates that we're at right now which is quite quite interesting to um think about um and as it was a side hustle it sort of built into being able to get to a position where I could go full-time in the business um and I think that took that took a few years I was probably around 2018 when I jumped in full-time um and then we we went through that big big drop in in rates and changes in all the policies and things that came out we had interest only things changed we had um remaining principle and interest terms we had flaw rates on assessment rates we had people that used to do if you paid $1,000 on your mortgage and we only use that in the in the calculator now they put all buffers in there um then we had the the thing called Co which knocked all the rates down and then it's all come back in a different direction right now so it was aide hustle for a bit and and then I had the opportunity to jump in full-time and and that's always a bit of a roller coaster if if anyone's had um a a job and a side hustle before and you enjoy that that level of income and then you turn one full time you've got to be able to make up the Gap and and that can be that's that's where the challenge and excitement of business is you could say yeah cool and um at and were were you always um working with property investors so I I was working uh with well I suppose in the early days it was people that came through the door to be able to get some get some commission run the business and help more people um I suppose we're all property investors in one way or another it just depends on what the outcome is like if we're buying property to live in it may not be an investment right now but you never know in the future if you sell it or change it into an investment and then we started start working with people that were buying in their super funds uh in the early days I started jumping into that pretty quickly doing doing that sort of lending so that was um property investment and um I had people buying in their own street through to other towns um off the plan things like that so every where we always working with property investors we're we're working with property and lending on property every day so yeah in the early days it was more on the owner occupied and then leveraging that into getting Investments and now we're finding a lot of people wanting to rent and then do do do investments from there and when did the transition happened from um the the part-time side gig to um uh being full-time in business yeah so that was um that was in 2018 it was like um I went through uh the company I was working for went through a merger with another company so the company I worked for got bought out and um they didn't treat the outgoing people in the company they bought very well uh so I took the opportunity to jump out of that role and jump full full force into um mortgage broking was already riding a fairly decent amount of money before that so I was able to then put full focus on that so that was 2018 and then um got into got into some um Business Development stuff networking referrals having coffees with everyone and anyone I can talk to um needed alone in my my book even if they didn't yeah of course of course um and now um to today you've got quite a sizable business with many staff yeah so the in the in the business um the business has evolved from just myself and a mobile phone through to um an office with um five uh five staff in Australia and an offshore team so we're sitting at about 10 10 in the team at the moment five full-time Brokers which is which is pretty cool to be able to service um the people coming in and give capacity to help more people uh in the last couple of years is when we sort of really focus on strategy around how does the lending work if you buy your own place and then Investments or if you buy Investments or you buy into different entities and how how you can get the properties and then reshape it and manage it going forward and not not just look at the not just look at the transaction that you're doing right now but look at something past that and would you say that now you know you don't just um uh try to write write anything that you can but it's more about uh specializing with um particular types of clients yeah so there there is a bit of um specialization coming into the piece on looking at investors and how we can help them purchase more according to their goals or restructure refinancing to be able to uh help their portfolio cost less and then look at that to then late frog into the next one so we we sort of see um specializing in investors helps us not only help them even get their own place through to getting um as many properties as they need to um yeah so yes we are specializing more and more into investors uh but we still do um some of the other owner occupied things as well which is why we have a team to be able to bring that into and you're uh then you've got your self-employed and Commercial um um commercial lending as well yeah that's a that's an interesting one where if you think about from an an investor or property investor side is that yes we we need to find the engine room that helps us buy the properties right so it might be um the self-employed person it's usually their business and their engine room of their business there and if that can be ramped up with different assets whether it's um vehicles through to uh rent rolls TR books whatever it is that that that business can have an asset in if that can be ramped up and the customers through there can be ramped up and the cash flow can come through that can usually flow through to their personal world of um being able to build assets not only building their business building their assets on the side as well so um self-employed are great where you can go cool let's um let's get your business rocking and then let's get some assets on the side so um looking at that old vintage do you do you sell your business to retire on or do you have some assets along the way in both areas of your life um so that's really cool and sometimes that's commercial sometimes it's the office that they're in sometimes it's um uh just some cash flow lending to get to the next project or front front run that because um let's face it sometimes invoices don't get paid on time these days and then and then on the personal side it's like okay cool I've I've been able to bring some cash out of the business let's go after some property yeah so it's all of the above it's all of the above so one yes and it's the same with people that are employed like um they might be training to be um uh a professional whether business or or lore or health or or property or even mortgage breaking they might be training up to be something and then they have some certain amount of money now and then in the future they as they get into that role they're going to have a bit more money too so they've been able to bank roll or cash flow um asset Creation in their own lives as well so it's not necessarily just building up an engine room of a business it could be the other side with career as well okay so let's get into what's happening in the now within the the the banking and lending space um it's because it it does change all the time um from bank to bank and lender to lender of you know what what they um of how much they want to lend and who they want to lend to uh so so what's happening now what are the trends uh there was a lot of change during the Royal commission and then through Co times um what what's it settled into now and how much change are we still seeing yeah so the the now is specifically for investors yeah yeah well um I suppose the first thing that most people see at the moment is they're seeing like interest rates in the Sixers so um for investors if if we're taking the um The Stance of either principal and interest Landing or the interest owning Landing we're looking at um sort of mid to mid to high sixes in in most um Prime spaces of lending there are some variances different to different lenders but what we're also seeing in The Lending space that most people will focus on the rate it's it's the highly publicized thing every month the RBA meets we've had lots of rate Rises so interest rate is always on the top of people's tongues but when you when you break it down and you look under the hood of what builds a serviceability calculator which is the we could say that's the magical calculator that all banks have and they all compete in different areas um that's where all the variability comes in what they're going to give you how they're going to assess you what documentation you need to provide so it's not necessarily I can afford the repayment on uh a 6 and a half% interest rate it's actually what does the bank assess how many buffers are in there and then then then once you know that you can get something then it's all all all um Wheels to the ground to get the lending going so what are we seeing lenders are CH lenders have more or less put most of their magical service ability calculators online so they are able to do daily tweaks on that so what's today could be changed tomorrow um there's not just the interest rate there's how they judge how people spend their money so there's this thing called inflation that has jumped out there um petrol prices up everything's up insurance is up and interest rates for the banks are going up but as say groceries goes up your household expenditure measure that the banks use as responsible lending goes up as well so a few years ago those expenditure measures might be down now they're up so it's not just the rate going up it's now the how they judge the expenses um types of properties for investors when they uh when we look at um properties so if you buy a house with some land you might have expenses like your rates and your water and your um insurances and your property management costs but if you buy something that's like a Str of property and now we've got to add strier in and they most banks will consider Strider and property investment costs um different and if you got too much on the investment property cost well the impact of getting the rental income um makes makes a lower impact on how much you can borrow so the these things under the hood other than investment interest rate is what's driving a lot of where the borrowing is going to be and it's also driving the competition between the lenders as well yeah um with with the um people that are employed looking at buying and expanding their property portfolio it might be things like um a bank might take 80% of their commission but another bank might take 100% um your type of employment will change so if if if you're able to have those those all these little changes like you're controlling the costs on your properties you're controlling your um expenditure measures to what the bank determines um you're um able to then go to go to a bank that's maybe going to let you get through and they're only judging 80% commission and then you want to buy another property and maybe we need to go to another bank that says cool they're going to take 100% of of of your commission it's going to change the outcome of what you're going to be able to buy absolutely and and that's why if it if anyone still doesn't realize that's the Strategic if we can use that word reason why someone would use a mortgage broker isn't it that's right so and and that's the thing and and also you could take the higher thing is that um uh property investment is just a game of Finance um the property is pretty well secondary yes you need to get a good property but if you don't have the finance all set how how are we going to go find the property you could go and fall in love with the property wherever you want but if you can't afford it what's the what's the point like we're better spending time elsewhere uh and and when you're looking at strategy on lending it's more about um not just looking at the first transaction you do it's looking at the next one so if you're going to if we go to a lender that's very lenient on its lending uh when we go again for the second property that lender is going to judge their their lending that they've already lent you um more restrictive because it's a risk to them so the lending to them is going to be a risk so where we were judged favorably to get into the lender in the first place then we go back to them again to borrow more money it can be quite restrictive so sometimes it's good to get okay I'm going to buy one property now cool what's your goal on this where are you going with it what do we need to do and and that can even change the the Bing capacity can even change from um lender to lender and what repayment type you have so traditionally most people will go after interest only but it could be uh beneficial when you're acquiring properties to go principal and interest because you get a little bit of extra borrowing capacity and then when you've got the properties you want for the time being then you can go back and restructure things so um and that's what we're seeing and and that's where one of the other big things that we've seen a lot of movement around the lenders as well so what people acquire their properties on may not be what they have forever either okay all right yeah it's so it's it's it's working out that strategy of how to acquire properties and uh and then keeping them long term is can be a different strategy altogether that's right so it's and that's why you need to have that good relationship with a a mortgage broker to be able to assess from year to year what's changing in the market and lending policies um so that you you can make those changes when when required that's right and and don't just come to a a mortgage broker or uh whoever's going to find your properties without a goal well yeah it's nice to get an investment property but let's just not Chase everyone let's have a goal with it what are we what are we trying to achieve here um it could be as simple as um I want to try to build a passive income or um I've got got some money to to invest but I'm better off investing in the property Market versus any other asset so it depends what your goal is like some people come to me with uh goals of they just want to um pay off their owner occupied mortgage they want to um hire early they have a legacy for a kids or they want to have a passive income of X like um nothing's wrong or right it's good to understand what that goal is because if you go out then and you get the borrowing in place this is where the the second part comes in where what type of property so if we've got the goals we've got the lending we got the lending in the right way that goes and matches to the property it makes all your property Partners buyas agents um people really happy where you can go through that process and you can and go okay cool well I just need to get property X and property y property Zed and that gets us outcome then we fast through forward through time you may pay them off um you may sell them with the uplift of anything that happens there or you may hold on to them and have a property portfolio paid off which is an interesting thing about paying off debt these days not many people want to they just want to have more and more and more yes yes more and more and more um now talking about that uh what if someone someone is just starting on their property investment journey and young old or indifferent might not matter but they're in a position where they don't necessarily have an asset base uh or much of it they might have something to put towards putting to a to a deposit um and or they might not have much equity in in a in an existing property um how how what's the best strategy for getting started and trying to grow a portfolio from a financing point of view uh because as as you just talked about you know you can you can find all the best properties in the world to invest in but if you can't get the finance what's the point um so how do we um how do they go about uh setting up that strategy to be able to get in and get started as quickly as possible and and grow it as much as quickly as possible yeah so so there's a couple of things that I I see when people come to us or come to me to talk about uh an initial call on on how do I get started in a property investment or even buy their own property um we usually find that the first one's the hardest because it's it's it's a learning game no no one really teaches too much in regards to how how debt works and puts it on properties and things and and how you can then utilize different policies that are in the in in the system and there's so much of it because that's the only reason they can the lenders can compete so um I I I even had a conversation with a couple um yesterday where they they said to me where do I learn on more of this stuff you've just gone through so much to be able to get our boring capacity done where do I learn more to be able to help myself um to help you and and not need to and just know more um and yeah it's it's looking at um podcast it's looking at um some some knowledge out there it's looking at how your experience is gone with current lending and what your your your strengths are with what risks you want to take on so we we have a firsttime investor come in um and they've got a deposit well how do we get started well borrowing capacity is the first thing to get started on so understanding your goal and doing your borrowing capacity and does that borrowing capacity meet some of the market requirements of your desired choice of property um some people might have a a a preference on trying to get lower cost properties um some people um want to have a bit more of a decent property so it depends on and and and if you have too low of a borrowing capacity with too high of a rental income to be able to achieve it you're probably not totally ready so there's some recommendations that we can provide to get you ready or if you've got a reasonable rental um price that you need to get in plus you got a good borrowing capacity we might have to buy the property with a slightly higher um loan to the value of the property but at least it gets you started and we can get into the market the other thing that we need to think about when we jumping into property is that it's it's pretty well one of the it's one of the last haras that people have to have this delayed gratification so like we go down to the shop if you want to buy buy some some new Nikes or some a handbag or clothes and you don't have much in your bank account most of the time you can just log on to afterpay or you might have a credit card or anything and and you've got it so you don't have to wait for it you don't have to save up for that stuff anymore and with property property is one of these things that is a delay gratification area so it takes time to get prepared to get it then when you if you need to offload it you've you've paid these things like stamp duties and legal fees on top of it so you might have bought a property for half a million dollar but it cost you $540,000 to get it so when you go to get rid of it you've you've got to try to make your money back up right so it's the time between purchase and the time to sell so that's going to be a long time as well so and then you might find that if you're on fixed incomes or there's something not too variable in your income you might have to buy the first property you might actually have to wait a period of time or save up a bit more deposit in addition to what the property is doing as well so it's it's a bit of um understanding what you want to do as a goal understanding your borrowing capacity understanding how you can save money and then also recognize that property investment is a is a delayed gratification game it's not like we can go to the shop and just buy it and then sell it and go again so yes yeah what what what if you had the scenario where um someone's got the ability to either buy a property to live in and or um or continue renting and and starting to build their property portfolio as a rent Fest um and what are the differences and the advantages is um yeah purely from a let's take away lifestyle choice and and so on from the choosing to to to buy to living purely from a numbers and finance point of view um what are the advantages of both yeah so if there is one or the other no yeah excluded the personal choices obviously there's no wrong or right way to to buy property like buy property to live in buy property to rent um in the currently right now with the interest rates where they are and the rents where they are so if you if you're renting in in Sydney you probably are seeing or you're owning an investment property in Sydney you're probably seeing rental yields Down Under the 3% um in some other areas your rental yields might be up over five six or 7% in in places so when you're renting say in a major city where you might be working and doing um doing your job your rent uh say on on a $850,000 property say around 600 650 a week um when you go to buy that property at a high if you've got a limited deposit and you buy that property with a limited deposit at a high loan to value ratio you might find that you're going to be paying not 650 a week to hold on to it you might be paying 750 800 a week on just the mortgage alone uh let alone thinking about the council rates and water rates and repairs and other things that may need to go into the property so when you're when you're looking at where you need to work and where you need to live and then buying in your own property you can strip out all the emotion and you can go okay well does it make Financial sense um in where I need to live to to work or can I live in a lower cost area where you're probably better off buying a property to live in versus renting so yes but that might not be convenient from a work point of view and yeah yeah so that's where combination if you if you have a good deposit and you want to buy your own place go and it's going to be less than rent cool the the best way to make properties um cash neutral is to have no debt on it right so so if you have no debt on it you either get good rental income back for yourself to live from which is where some of the goals of passive income comes from or you have lower costs on the property compared to renting it so it's it's comes down to how we want to balance it so a lot of people that have limited deposit or they're starting out their property Journey uh sometimes cons well not sometimes all the time you need to consider the dollars and cents if you're going to pay an exuberant rate on your mortgage it's a higher learn to Value ratio and you still want to invest it's probably going to slow you down for a long time if you've if you've got lower rent on a property that is great and a great job to support you then to save up money or get some money to be able to start investing you can then flip it around you can in a higher cost property for a good amount of money to your budget and a good job and then you can take a lower amount of money which could be a slightly higher deposit in a in a different state or a different area um to be able to start investing because the numbers like a a 10th what is it $100,000 deposit on a million dollar property or $100,000 deposit on a $500,000 property so those equations change the outcome yes but for most people who are um you know they they're living where they need to work MH and they're living where they're close to friends and family and where they know lot of people don't want to move out of area just to be able to buy somewhere cheaper yeah um so that they can live in that um or it's just you know it would be too impossible from a from a work point of view um to be able to do the work that they need to so they they really stuck in this cycle of needing to rent where they need to live um but a lot of lot of people see it as a negative thing still but there still is a lot of advantages to um continue to rent where um you need to live and being able to buy investment properties to get in the market and and um build your um asset base that way isn't there there there is and I think there a couple of things to think about when when if you feel like you're stuck and you want to be in the same area over and over again where you got a good job and you got a got family you got friends you got everything there and it's such a and the property prices obviously in Sydney you can reverse time and their lower cost and you can come back to today's time and their higher cost um you you that's a that's what's in between your head like um was it rent money's dead money that's a common statement that I get when people are wanting to buy their statement now yeah old old fashioned statement and then when you when you when you can rent a property for 3,000 a month or you can buy a property that's $200,000 less of value and have to pay $4,000 a month on the mortgage alone the the Money Talks that's another statement there Money Talks rent money's dead Money Money Talks so we're getting some cliches today well you you were talking about the rental yields in Sydney being under 3% you know let's call it 2 and a half% essentially you're paying the same as interest only on that property with zero deposit except for maybe the four weeks Bond um which which is a minuscule deposit um and in comparison to the value of that property uh and you're um essentially paying interest only at 2 and a half% and you don't have to pay any of the um outgoings and expenses on that property either that's right and then that helps you supercharge savings capacity other things like that but then there a mindset shift from the people wanting to buy their own place in Sydney um and not wanting to rent in Sydney the mindset shift is don't I I I'm fearful of being an investor yeah how am I how am I going to do that how am I going to talk to people like yourself as a property manager do I have the power over things still can I do do I need to repair things or do I need to pay someone else am I going to get the right amount of rent is the rent going to come in time to pay the mortgage all these little things can come up about how you can manage an investment property or stop or it doesn't prevents you from getting an investment property cool yeah um thank you for that um one other thing I wanted to ask as well was um it's uh looking at the stats there's there's what 75% of all investors only have one investment property and then it's um something like less than 10% have three or more investment properties so um so there there's a huge gap there between um the the the people who only have a few properties to people who have many um and I've heard it time and time again from people who uh from a borrowing capacity point of view they seem to max out at two three maybe four properties um and it's somewhere between that range where they just go yeah it's just impossible to borrow more money even though I've got the equity I've got good income my my um I'm getting income from the property as well as you know my personal income you know I don't see any reason why I can't borrow but the banks just don't seem to you know it's it's just maxing out um can you explain why that happens and and how and how can investors um um get around that if if at all yeah so you've got to you've nearly got a week's worth of podcast just sitting in that question there uh well yeah we got we got another five minutes yeah so so with people getting past their first property onto their second property or even third or fourth to get out of the 75% of investors always only have one property how do you get to the next one well it's it's I feel like there's a bit of a mind shift a mindset shift uh before you even get the first property this is where we I did say the statement before that fin property investing a game of Finance with a few properties in put in there but if you but if you pick the wrong properties you might get stuck right so there there are areas um in Australia for example if you bought um uh back in sort of 2015 2016 say in Perth and then you're trying to get Equity out in 2017 2018 you may not have the right property and you may not have any Equity it might be negative equity so if you have a negative equity situation and a high lvr or loan to value ratio situation um uh a high rent you're probably not to get the equity out to help you get to the second one you're going to be probably stuck there and if you potentially buy the house down the street of where you're living in with the wrong rental yeld for you and the wrong the wrong value for you and it sucked up all your savings and it's sucking out one to two grand a month out of your your your pocket you're probably not going to be able to get to the second property so yeah that choice of property um is is a key thing about what's it what's it going to return on the cash flow do you have the money to afford to hold it um what's it going to do to your tax position so this is where if you want to get past your second first property this is where the whole the little bit of a teamwork thing comes in like we might if you're self-employed we might need to get draft tax returns and have a look at where we're sitting uh we might have to have a conversation back in January February to have a chat about where you're sitting profit and loss wise to be able to open up the lending and prepare for things instead of looking like you're a a poper to the tax man so preparation comes into it the team comes into it the right properties come into it to be be able to go past the first one or time comes into it so even even some of the more poorly performing properties may still perform over time you just got to wait a bit longer for it so that that comes into it and then the borrowing capacity cap thing um yeah well well this is where the borrowing capacity caps um it's it's how they build the calculators so everything's in that magical serviceability calculator right when you go to a bank you want to borrow more money and you're going to pay 6 and a half% the bank's going to assess as if the rate is 95% so they're going to add 3% on top of that all right so there's already a buffer put in there so your actual repayment you pay to your mortgage might be 1,000 bucks but they're going to consider it's like 1,002 Grand yeah even though your reality is different on the rental income um for every $100 you get in rental income um some banks will take 75% of that so that's $75 and some will take 90% which is $90 all right so out of out of $100 let's give F out you get $90 a week and rent onto the calculator then they're going what does it cost you to hold the property what's your management fees what's your insurance what's all that stuff so now we're going from $90 now we're back to 80 back to 7 back to 60 back to $50 a week that's impacting your calculator but that's not your reality your reality is you get $100 every $100 of rent you get the $100 you opt to pay professionally I'd say you have to pay your property manager because it just takes a headache away so yes you pay your property manager it's good to have the insurance it's good to have that but the reality is it doesn't tap you all the way down to 50 bucks every property the reality of the dollars is different to the buffers that are built into the calculator and the buffers the more buffers in the calculator the worse the borrowing capacity outcome is going to be but sometimes the tougher the calculator the cheaper the interest rate so when you want to open up your boring capacity this is where you have to diversify your lenders um we said before 80% Comm to 100% commission um we could do with self-employed we could do one year financials versus an average of two so that can significantly change the outcome of the borrowing capacity so yeah are we actually borrowing capacity capped or we just don't look at all the other lenders that compete for your business to give you a bit more money and and why would we want to borrow more money is that safe it's it's this is where if the bank's willing to give you a million dollars but you don't feel comfortable with that and you only want half a million guess what you're you're in control of your own borrowing as well so it just depends on your risk appetite what's what your mindset is around property investing and with borrowing capacity we we have to look at things like diversification of our lenders um we have to look at whether we can invest in other areas and we can borrow we can borrow from a legitimate borrowing sense we can borrow in companies we can borrow in trusts we can borrow in super we can borrow in our own name we can split the ownership up we can borrow in the wife's name we can borrow in the husband's name and all those things have a conglomerate of lending policy and calculations that will change from you being able to borrow nothing to you being able to borrow two million bucks so it's about getting a little creative if you need to strategic I say yes okay strategic and um and yes the the cheapest rate isn't always the best rate that's right so because there can be a lot of asterix's uh um that come along with that rate um that say that you can't borrow as much as you want to either does it that that's right and and it's not so if you if you came to me to look at your borrowing capacity I want to know about you first and what your circumstances are because that allows me to figure out which policies are going to fit to you and there might be many policies that fit to you and many banks that go along with it and then after we know that then we know which lenders we're going to be scrutinizing that have the policies that match your circum ances that open up the lending for you yeah because it's no good just going to a bank that's got a good low rate because who who doesn't like a bargain these days and then you fall in love with a property or you like the numbers of an investment property and then the bank says no what what are you going to do jump out of the branch and then walk down the road you've got to start the whole conversation again yeah so so I work on a principle of person policy product so once you finish talking with um one of my team about it it's about you you know that you're going to be paying 6.29% because of a reason you're going to be paying 7% because of a reason um so that when you turn on the news and you can go get a nice lad rate it's you go no no I didn't qualify that bank I I qualified at this one and it helps you get through so person product policy product is what we work on every day in and day out and then matching it to your goals yep it's um you pay the price to get the result that you want in the end and um you don't pick your price first yeah yeah and and the other way to overcome your borrowing capacity problem is what's happening in the future are you getting a promotion have you got more business coming in um can you with self-employed people it's either an increase in income or it's a decrease in expenses right there's there's many businesses out there that might get a million dollar turnover and they spend $999,000 of it or a business that earns 400 Grand and only spends 20 grand to get it so the profit changes and that changes your outcome too well Aaron that's been a lot of information and a lot lot of valuable information gez we um we did talk for a while but um it's um H but yeah a lot of valuable information if anyone wanted to um uh reach out to you and to be able to see how they can get some help um how did they do that yeah so the the best way to reach out to us is it's as it spells strategic mortgage brokers.com toau we'll get you to our website or you can always drop us a phone call on the uh on the landline it's uh 02 9188 4488 um we we have a team people we have a great process to put you through to get you to your goals of your next property or even your first one so um that's how you can reach out to us we're more than happy to have a chat uh and see what we can do and what we can rem recommend for you okay great fantastic and of course if anyone wants to be put in touch directly with Aaron um uh and and um the Strategic mortgage brokers team um please reach out to ourselves and we can um do an introduction as well so um thanks Aaron for joining us lot of uh good information there uh to help investors and borrowers in general and um yeah glad to have you on the podcast be on the podcast [Laughter]