Segs (Ruts DC) : The John Robb interview

John Rob here interviewing the legendary segs on ruts RS still in other projects and bands so um well we'll start actually what you actually up to the moment well at the moment we we we haven't stopped sort of touring with uh with r DC really um recently the last release was the electro acoustic 3 and I never thought we'd do an acoustic version of anything but there we go and in a way it's the best one so far I think and uh we've even got a new song on it um Bound in Blood which has gone down really well so we did the acoustic tour which we're supposed to do it was all 45 like 45 years since the first release two 45 minute sets 45 single you know um uh but obviously with the stories and it turned into two hour Set uh ruy got the sing one um I think it went down really really well uh didn't quite know what to expect really but it good because done the Dead Men Walking stuff I think we got better at sitting down and doing that and then recently we just done Rebellion with the full electric and we did like three gigs in two gigs in Ireland and One in Stow market with the four band so that good to get back to the you know the grit of the because it all works together doesn't it really um so we've been doing that and and now we got uh got a little well someone call it Hiatus I'll call it a couple of weeks without doing anything so uh chilling out a little bit just taking stock doing the accounts all that boring stuff and then um got a giging uh we got a festival in col in Germany and then we start got support with the undertones support with from the jam and we're going to do loads of gig from the jam I just heard that Bruce foxton's been rushed into the hospital today apparently just heard that okay yeah yeah so I don't know whether the tour is going to go ahead I think they've set it up so it will so I'm I'm not sure uh but uh we're going to do it if we if we can and um it just be a sort of solid set of gigs you know until the next phase it's just what you manag to do here because you managed to sort of play with your history and celebrate your history but also keep the band moving forward and is it quite difficult to get that balance um I I think rather than be difficult I think it's would have been more difficult to just do you know R we never really we never actually reformed the rats we've reformed rats DC um I always felt funny about that and you were very integral because I remember after that 2007 thing we started doing some gigs I remember meeting you at some catering table I think I was with Alabama 3 and you I said I feel really weird John about going out and doing these songs and you said no the songs need to be heard you know so I never forgot that um but I'm I'm very very pleased that we carried on writing CU we did the reggae stuff which everybody knows we can do but when we did music mroy that was really difficult for me because it was like okay got right lyrics that fit in with the the remit of the ruts on ruts DC uh and it kind of worked so now we're two albums in on that front really so um and and and some of them like psychic Attack music Must Destroy they fit in really well and I'm so proud that we can do that you know so when we when we're doing a set now you know it's not we can somehow I don't know how we managed to fit it all in we can sort of go bang and put the new stuff the old stuff and some slow down ones born innocent and stuff like that and it seems to it seems to work so I think actually rather than be more difficult doing that I think it's essential you know because without mentioning any names I mean there's a hell of a lot of bands going out doing the greatest hits or the hits isn't there you know H some some some you just want to go and see those and I'm very pleased with ourselves that we've we've been to do that and I think we'll carry on doing that until such time as we uh fall over as yeah when you talk about writing the lyrics within the parameters of what the idea the band is I mean the music doesn't seem to do that you know it seems to moved on into a different space obviously because the lineups slightly different yeah yeah is there an idea what you know is there an idea in your head of what what DC actually musically is is I I think I think anything goes with Russ DC uh and we like to be bold uh I think there's a Common Thread that runs through it I always feel it when I'm writing the lyrics You Know It kind of has to be from one of a better word socially conscious is that is you know I mean doesn't mean all the songs have to be about that but I mean you know our Legacy like babylon's burning um jar War you know they're very very serious things and and that's how I cut my teeth really being in a band that had that much to say and and you you look back at that and think well when I say to my daughter you know like she said I like bab Lo bur and you go well but you think about being on top of the pops and selling that many records I mean when has there been a time when that social comment can be out there it certainly wouldn't happen now cuz I mean even if there was a top of the pops you know you can't really there's no one there's no one really doing that sadly there's a few you know a few good bands but um I think so that that thread remains all the way through even in the rout although it's is it socially conscious it kind of is because it's a it's a it's it's a thing at the time which was a revolution of you know maybe getting out of it or whatever but it would do it was about doing something about it I think I think this is where our conversation came in the other day liter St it's a it's I feel it's a responsibility to actually provide some answers more than just pointing the finger and I I think the overall message is helping people to carry on thinking for themselves as my and Roots would say you know uh that kind of revolution is a word I don't won't really use anymore I use worn out Revolution because it is a bit worn now I mean but it's it is it it's resistance more isn't it I suppose yeah that's because when the conversation we're having at Rebellion it was talk about what the role of a band is you know and is it I can't think in a sense it's not U no one's expect to provide answers that's just crazy nobody could provide an answer not yeah is it is it about empowerment and maybe asking questions and providing a space where people feel good about themselves in a sense that they can go on and do things definitely I mean and that's what I mean that was the aspect that punk certainly me and rfy embraced was just like and and and Foxy and Malcolm was like we yeah we can do this Christ and that was a very exclusive Rock Arena before then wasn't it you know what I mean it these people were Untouchable really um I I think we it's almost like a safe space as well obviously along the way in since this rut DC last Incarnation which is now getting on you know I don't know 15 years um some people have come and gone some people said well you know they're not the same about Malcolm I'm I I know indeed but not that's why we haven't reformed R and you know and and also to be frank to be frank I miss him every day but it's been over 40 five years you know and so we got the right to write new stuff and I think the way we've carried that mantle forward is good without being too pretentious about it um as I if I could do a stop frame of the crowds you know that come to see us I think the Crowds Are come to see us now you know a lot of the chaff has gone and and people that W and and bless them if they don't want to come absolutely but we've got a good hardcore fan base now that like the old stuff like the new stuff and and it's a sort of safe space really I think as well people come along it ain't going to be any fights at our gigs hopefully you know and we're before you know back in the day it was like pitch battles you know cuz even then so the rats were this and the Rats were that well the rats weren't there you know there was Pitch battles between different tribes and uh ruffy's always going to B the tribes because there was so many different tribes skinners stuff quite heavy scary situations but when you look at the pictures of the skids you know in you know they're really young John you know they're like you know they're like you're like you would you just go come on and some of those guys I think this has been good as well I've met some of those guys along the way people people that were you know there one particular guy from dundy and he stole a car he came down to London like you know pretty pretty rightwing you know came down to London came to one of our Geeks mising roots to see what this Rock Against Racism thing was all about it changed his life he said and uh you know and uh he actually went oh this is great so I suppose those you know many stories like that I suppose but you know each one of those is worth a million is it you know it's like it's like wow if it's just one person it was worth it yeah well absolutely so I guess I guess there is some sort of responsibility this is the conversation we' have there is some I feel responsible for doing a good show for start I feel responsible for Being Fit enough to do it I never want to be perceived or none of us to that we're tired old BLS going through the miss you know I'm not saying I haven't done that you know after a 40 date tour but I mean most of the time you know you got to remain a bit vital and uh you know we got we got that kind of slot in the middle of in aaq where sometimes you know there was one we did a thing for Nick Turner so we did a bit of like Silver Machine and then you know people kind of there was one week where about four people died you know we s it's like a medley but uh but at the same time uh it it lets us expand so you not you don't know you're going to get exactly the same every night I try and say something different every night you know and I've seen so many bands that say exactly the same thing and you go like really really I mean you got as you know you speak all the time and you got an idea You' got a template but it's it's really good if someone says something and you can react you know it's it's good you we were talking about um Stuart Lee you know and doing the same thing I the same with Henry Ron is you know say the same thing every night but when you watch Dart Lee it's a like it's a gift when someone heckles him he's just like that's the [ __ ] you wait for isn't it you know thinging it what Stuart does he's he's to what you do he's got a set so he play he plays his learn set it he jams around with a bit and then he goes off at tangents which is what you did I think Stuart and sense is very similar to a Punker or post punk band really he's just he he likes R and rat DC he's got the albums r i not had a chance to go and see him yet but um ruffy's been to a couple of his shows you know he goes back and these chat indust backstage it's kind of weird comedians they're all there I think he's in a different space I think he's closer to the music to the bands you know than he comedians in a sense yeah he you know about material I was watching him and he he he you know he's got he's got some fantastic ones and he but there's one where he's going you know he's been at home with his kids and he said you know where I get the inspiration from and he's I've been there you know being a dad watching Scooby-Doo and then he he does like 20 minutes on Scooby-Doo and you know bloody you know the Rope bridge and you know it's fantastic that the way he takes it and then he goes on and on it's just genius really humor is everything in it you you got to have it yeah looking back at the music and we talk about that skin guy I've done D before I mean maybe the most powerful statement in in the bands you know ruts and ruts DC is that perfect fusion and synthesis that he did between black and white cultures you know coming from obviously coming from a white perspective yeah but presenting in a way that it open doors for people to go and find this other stuff and I think for all the bands that came out of that period the punk periods a lot of people say this the RS and on was the RS DC did it the best actually well that's nice I mean obviously what can I say we're inspired by black bands really so you know and we we we were lucky enough to uh you know the way it happened really I was only like 20 21 when all this started and and you know we' be around Malcolm's house and Chris Bolton would come around and Clarence Baker and you know get a bit of weed or whatever and just be there in a little squat room and chatting and oh you know we should do some gigs together and then we just started doing gigs together and again I'm into my you know the stop frame situation was us a Mr un used to do gigs before it was called Rock Against Racism and if you had a stock phone they'd be down one end playing Domino's and we' be the other end like being the ruts with like girls dressing bin liners I mean it really did happen um but the stop frame was like we we came like in the end they got more into rasa Fara and they were in the middle and they had a big like newspaper full of weed they reading for the Bible with giggling girls in still in punk clothing and they were just completely okay with it you know we were there smoking the weed getting we couldn't really handle it they all like righteous like and we're like but and they were used to Jam at the end and um usually if they went on for you know sometimes we were on first sometimes it was very I don't think I've ever been in such an equal situation as that there is talk about doing we're always talking about doing a gig or some more gigs together uh some of them have gone actually but uh when they had that Rebellion a couple of years ago uh were they had the AR stage outside remember were you there for that yeah yeah yeah went a day early because Misty was there and I went down the front and I just was great and so I went that year all the wristbands didn't get you we so I went back and it all security and I said I got to go back and see M Ro and I said like you can't you got the wrong pass and I said look let me tell you a story and I started telling him I said when we and I went he went oh he said in the end he went look just shut up and go through you know I was telling the whole story and uh so I went through and so it was lovely to see him and uh we were very very lucky this story is quite well known but you know we played on the back of the truck of anti Nazi League r and we were on the back of the track and you know and Tony I can't remember his African name but Tony he was there playing a Bas and and I'm just we're ger a long reggae and I'm going and he's going no no less NS man less NS and it's like no so I really cut my teeth learning that and I I think I mean ruffy had played in a lot of black bands when he was young so um yeah it it's a crossover thing yeah uh I I think that's although people take it for granted now but I think it the actual meeting of the two cultures has slightly diminished if anything and that's quite sad because when we used to do those gigs it would be I wouldn't say equal but we used to go to Black gigs and black people used to come to White gigs and and that reggae thing really joined the two people together and we always say about that you'd have a DJ maybe don lets or maybe someone else playing reggae and dub in between the punk bands and it really cooled down the pace you know it was great um I find that you know I I rarely look out these days and see many black people there which is you know I'm not saying oh we should have more black people I'm just saying the cultures do split and I I I I think the problem is with mankind really is like if you leave them without any sense of unity they all Scuttle back including myself you Scuttle back to your own tribe you know it's very easy that's why we we still we were lucky enough to be on People Unite label which was their label we still say nearly every gig People Unite remains that message and I can't really see an argument against that you know I mean you know because you got to go no I don't think people should unite it's like crazy you know without getting into the politics of it that's with that when people say about politics I said a really about that it's about people unit it's just like why not why help each other without being it's not left or right wing it's just been a human isn't it well you know got a left wing and a right wing let's fly straight you know I mean in a way punk had his very best was the synthesis of cultures it may be very subtle some bands would have more of a of these other cultures mixed into what was notionally thought of being pun Rock and someone have less but it was in there when that's when it was that's when it was very definitely and then you got you know you got Bad Bad Brains and stuff like that which was like w and you know death and you know people like that and you know they were about and it wasn't all Punk is what you know it should you know in a way I just when people argu me I said look I'll tell you what it is because well what is it and I said well it varies day by day really you know but the the the the essence is still there I think you got to care I think you've got to care about the community and and and and and that being the people that come to see you you know there's a certain as I say certain responsibility like we saying and um yeah I just think you got to keep keep keep the uh quality up you know of the songs as well it could have gone really wrong you know we could have written bad songs and uh or we could have written none at all which I think is more of a crime in a way just doing the same old same old I mean you go mad you I mean before earlier on what your starting point i' imagine would you would you be in the early to mid 70s more of a rock fan and then you start your journey in that kind of space where did you start your musical Journey T mtown really uh you know I mean I couldn't help it my sister well so my dad didn't really have many records because people didn't in those days but he had he had the stones um the high high you know big hits high tide and green grass which was fantastic couple of Beatles albums fantastic and he also had fat swalla which was a strange e appearan is fantastic but black so that was amazing and my sister got into Tam mown bwn M Supremes and stuff like so I listened to that quite early on we had loads of singles I still got some of them and then she got into reggae because she was going up she was going to Tottenham to these dances and so I had like Phoenix City I've still got it uh original blue be Prince pasta so she was like five years older than me so that's what was on the radio gram and I was telling ruy because because we keep finding out things about each other we didn't know there was a guy a guy lived across the road and there was a little bit a whisper that the police had been around because he'd been smoking a joint or something you know I must have been I was quite young I must have been 14 anyway my sister started talking to him and he lent us three Who albums that who sell out me be big and bounces on the radio gra suddenly the who was on so and then it was radio Luxenberg and I was listen I was listen Into The Kinks before that pictures of Lily you know under the under the covers and so I mean remember that punk at Pop Culture at that time was excellent you know it's not like the pop would be now it's like excellent The Kinks and the who for God's sake you know and and and Beatles and all this stuff I grew up was excellent excellent pop it's still called pop motan is pop so came out of that really and I think that's where a lot of the reg stuff came from because when punk happened I was still listen to Reg and St was ruffy and Foxy used to love the dub stuff because he loved Jimmy Hendricks and he loved the repeat so our first half was he had a we copycat because of the sound like Jimmy Hendricks really and he us just go and play the dubs and then we us used to jam from that Tempo you know so found out we could do it and then and then the next minute playing with M Roots learn to play less notes and and uh a few tricky things on the high from ruffy where you watch these you know ree guys and you go wow that's amazing it's so simple you know but great you know so that's where all that came from really yeah I had a sorry a brief period Deep Purple I listen to Black Sabbath first you know Masters of Reality good that's kind of punk really uh and then let Zepp in for a bit and uh that was a kind of bad kind of but i' would always go back and play Phoenix City and stuff like that when I wanted to dance you know because it's all very well sort of Ming along to a keyboard at home to yes or something I think I had a yes I think I had a yes uh cassette and I was like like Ming along in my mind you know and then I thought this is awful you know so that's the yes cassette kind of went out I never into a frog really it's all about the dance floor as well because of Tam Motown yeah t and I was a funk a tier as well I used to love funk you know like James Brown and stuff and so when I was 16 17 I was going up to Rupert Street Market and buying Advanced copies of reg and all this James band stuff and I used to go out dancing when I from when I was 17 I was dancing you know in clubs and everything because going out clubbing so it yeah I I guess uh looking at looking at my own story is not surprising I like a little bit of reg deep bpen base I suppose I guess when you grew up it was always part of the backdrop wasn't it yeah always always I still like a dance D John actually but if you ever get if if something really licks you and you're out and you know you feel it the next day don't haven't used those muscles for a while luckily I didn't do any spins it's always time to learn yeah I was born in Islington right near the angel Essex Road yeah and then quickly even in those days there was a spin out you know canonry and stuff like that was too expensive for my family to live in so we got spun out we used to live in in Essex roow but big house like five I think we were renting it but like three of the rooms would be empty and bombed you know it was that 56 uh one of the rooms was full of pigeons you know I mean imagine how much that' be worth now but those days it was still pretty like devastated London you know um and um then we moved from there to Woodford I think and I started school in Woodford then from Woodford to East ham uh Green Street funny enough my dad had a um a uh news agent there and then he sort of discovered he had a little bit of cancer um which in those days was very much like um you know that's it you know it's not like these days thank God and we moved down to South End so um and then when I was in south end I started working in London when I was 16 met ruffy in a record shop the rest is kind of history and then uh and then Punk happened you know Ron's that I'm 76 so I was 20 when that happened and it was just like wow everything went all the all the Frog Rock went out the window really and and the Jazz Rock and everything else yeah were you you know there's that little Angley phase were you up there with them was that the other guys who being up in angle no I went I did go and visit uh no that was just pre that cuz uh they were hit proper hippies really uh well as Foxy you said in that actually he says it in that interview you he said know I'm a hippie piece of Love or smash your faceing you know he he so kind of hard edged tip he's a bit like what what I suppose what all have become the festival lot you know TP BLS and all that but um they were pretty tough under but like to get out of it and uh and didn't want to be part of society really so pre Punk uh malol moved up there they all lived in this place um and rafy used to go and visit them and he he sort used to take select records one of which was the Ramones uh and I did go up there once in fact we wrote um something I said up there me and you know foxy said I got this riff which is amazing riff right so and then I just had there was another guitar there so I I say we wrote it together but we were playing it together but it was Foxy's riff you know Malcolm just wrote the lyrics um and then I never went up there again and then they moved down CU cuz things were happening down there you know I suppose in the way thinking about it there was an alternative scene uh blossoming which became Punk but it really did fit in because rather than the hippie drippy lot they and we were more like HW Quinn pink fairies and I mean you call it ay prop now would you I don't know but like they actually wanted to change change society you know not just sit around smoking on a big mushroom fun as well there was a bit of that as well I suppose but yeah and when we when we uh originally they were in a bank called Hit and Run um and um the RS Malcolm and Paul got together and wrote three or four songs been calling leoty rich [ __ ] um I have V and um one of and um they did some recording I was actually there for the recording but it was it ruffy on bass ruffy was on bass and there was other guy on drums and he had Phil lard base uh you know the big mirror base he Phil because Phil knew Malcolm knew Phil through various connections um and he lent him that base so got Phil L base and I'd been to see Phil I've been to see Finn Lizzy because Finn Lizzy there's certain bands that are still Co right Finn Lizzy I went to see them I went to see Haulin I went to see Alex Harvey you know long before and they were all like wow this is amazing and uh I might as well tell the story so Phil had that mirror base and he used to like get the lights and he point it usually at a woman usually a woman that would be the thing and there there we were with that base it was the same base that I'd seen him do it with you know and ruffy put stickers all the way out the uh up the football he was and shortly after that the band The Hit and Run sort of sack foxy and because they didn't want them to be in another band and so the rats become a serious thing sort of overnight and ruffy asked me if I want to be the Bas player which saying lot you know he's a good dancer he have to have his haircut a bit because bit was a bit too long um and that was it really but when we used to get together in the room we started rehearsing hchs and stuff like that it was it was just magical really we used to just jam and then put on his Al cassette player and then listen to it back and and there'd be some these [ __ ] riffs in and go I love that bit and like early sampling in a way you know so babon was burning we did some demos and it came out that was kind of my warmup because I never knew any any scales Fox yeah play that and he just went and Mountain just went with anx and it was like wow that's that you know boys was like that as well we got I've got this riffy guys and I went Ry and then malol just like sang These lyrics and it was like okay what do we do now and he was at the rude voice and it's like wow that's and we get home and we go that's pretty good that's pretty good organic like it should be mad it mad you the youngest you like the baby of the Bands yeah well only just but yeah I was the baby I looked up to him like massively and uh yeah ruffy was a bit older than me but my dad you know at 76 my dad died so he really took me under his wing ruffy uh with the Ramones and everything we were doing he really took me under his wing and said yeah well you know let's get on with it and next minute I was in the back of a van helping with Hit and Run being the worst Road in the world really but uh but it was great to be part of something you know through that death scenario um so my dad never ever saw the rats all the top of the pops bit because the not the top of the pops as a be endle but you know for that generation you've made it if you're on TV you know really mean much but uh it kind of did to us you know it was just like wow to of the my God it me it meant a lot to the people watching as well it's always great when your bands gets on there every every first I mean we used to watch it anyway you know all those years before top of the pops but as I say very well represented because you'd have these even when we were doing it it was like I think number one was Patrick Hernandez you know Born to Be Alive and then you get the pans people or legs and Co later on and I mean this is just the glamour of it all and then suddenly but you'd always get one really good badge you know even you know you know um Silver Machine was on there you know at the time and it was like wow what the what the hell is this it's like uh and you'd always have a bit of that so I always like tot of pops and then suddenly you know we got on there and it was just like and you walk in and it's of course nothing like you think the dream is in your little square TV it's all like it's a studio it's a first studio recording studio been here you know and it was just like oh my God it's really disappointing you know they're just little sets you know this is all illusion great you know I think people spoke a thought like that and when when we were in there the first top the pots I think we we took a while to do it but B was burning and the door opened and Madness running they only started with the prince and they they smashed up the dressing room and all went out in a Nutty walk you know and it was like it was like you know just yeah let's go and do the rats you know just for a laugh you know and uh yeah yes it's obviously you got the top poton going on there but was it and and every band has that kind of period where it's effortless like I said before you just go in the songs everything be pouring out well when did it start to feel like the wheels start to come off it wasn't working quite as well or was there a point like that it was all going quite I mean it was all going very well but the obvious reasons I I didn't really find out till I read the book that Malcolm actually had you know some problem with the old heroin before you know before the ruts I didn't know that I for me I thought it had been a whole uh thing which everybody had warned you about you know don't smoke that because it's going to lead to something more heavy uh and uh for me it it had and I was like oh my God you know I can't believe I'd read um I'd read U Ian Hunter's Diary of a rock and roll star yeah great it was like suddenly I was in it and it was suddenly God I'm I've gone from page seven to page 358 in a in in know in a in nine months and it was just like wow it was all it was so hard and and whatever people think you know we were all really very very close and um I was very close to Malcolm and um we were all very I mean we loved each other it was just fantastic he was always a bit of a drinker and a crazy it he never really you know he was very happy go lucky like yeah well you know I'll carry that if it's someone had a bit of spiff or something and he go I'll take that he didn't give a [ __ ] it was like it was like it was very um was very ephemeral for him it was it was like it wasn't going to last anyway so um that when I when I look at it now um and uh he started getting into that and and of course it's without going too much into all this you probably don't want too much of this but it's it's a very much a thing if you don't notice I mean I was I was I was only 23 when he died you know so if when he started getting into it 21 22 I just didn't know what was going on I I I just trusted people I didn't know I just didn't know he was getting deeper and deeper down into this thing and so the crack started showing really uh before we did the crack and then we went on tour and then it was fantastic uh and then you know when we did rud boys we had this we'd written that song as I said it was all going quite well and then we we were in in Europe somewhere doing the tour and um we did I'm just trying to get all this right chorus TV in Paris uh which was the only actually proper live TV we did uh and then the next day we suddenly got because we done that we got one in called folies which was in Belgium and the manager Andy Dam said oh look we got this F we're going to drive to it and Mountain's face was because he he' smuggled this his his whatever he needed in these brole creepers he made a secret compartment in the bottom of his bro yeah famous really and uh he showed it to everyone it was just like but I didn't know what it was you know um and but of course he run out and we had to go we had to go to do this other show which is another two days you know and it was really so he was hanging a bit so we we were drinking this thing called black Devils which is vodka perno and Coke and uh he was going no this is the best cure for coming off not and I believed him and you know oh it's great this is better than cold turkey and yeah I love you but you know you know Andy I bet I'm going to go home and I got to fly home and so we were all in the van he flew home to like go into rehab and uh because he didn't he went home and it was all bothers you know and that was that was the beginning of me seeing what had actually happened uh and we all I mean I was naive I just thought oh y great you know oh turn the page that's page 371 singer's got heroin problem 372 he goes into the rehab and it's all good but it doesn't work like that because you never beat it like that so we got back and uh we did um we went into the studio to do rude boys soundly great M turned up he was sort of pinned that out and um I said to him look out of it you know cuz he was quite aggressive if he wanted to be and he was like squaring up to me I am not out of it you know this is opium I'm only tracking this to get off the other stuff and I'm like what and uh so so it was yeah I mean that was the beginning and then or or I probably when I say the beginning it's like um it's actually quite Advanced by that point and you one doesn't realize cuz it's very foxy used to call it it's like Velvet Claws really you know you don't really even notice it it's coming in sort of devastating the band and devastating Malcolm and uh and then we did West one and the rest of his history really he went into hospital to have his nodules done because uh uh uh they couldn't operate because he had too much stuff in his blood and um yeah so the rest is sort of History really it was I mean it was it was it was devastating really we all just solded on you know and um you know laughing and telling jokes and getting on with it but really it was devastating I don't think we really grieved till much later you know when we did the first R DC album Animal now it was like really I hate that album I mean I know we're doing the songs again now but I hate it because it we're actually I was actually totally grieving you know and the lyrics show some of it and it was and at that time as well looking back sort of Joy Division were happening so there was this sort dark grth mood it was which we we kind of embracing but we we were actually really in a very real dark goth place you know because Malcolm M died and it was like oh so it was suitable but um yeah was there was there a frustration there as well obviously it's it's Heartbreakers you lost one of your closest friends but also frustration in a sense because the ruts were on the cuser being one of the key bands of that decade you know it wasn't wasn't like the band was done its thing and was on the way down it was actually peing wasn't it if you look at you know rude boys I still I mean I tell you John when I play Rude Boys on stage there's a bit in the guitar solo where he the key changes and he plays the solos foxy and then it carries on and every night I play it I go that is a magnificent piece of writing I I do and um and um the band just the band was so strong we were doing that we had some other stuff as well that was really good we and you know West ju I mean it's like started to get really amazing and me and Rafia got much better foxy was brilliant arranger Malcolm's lyrics were becoming more were deeper and um you know so where would it have gone but yeah so there was a frustrating I I didn't feel personally that I had the right to moan cuz I felt really lucky as a new boy that I'd even been in a band for any amount of time i' done top of the pops and as far as I was concerned you know that's much more than I ever thought I was ever going to do foxy was really really annoyed uh because I think we got off of some who gigs like uh we did do some who gigs in the end was ruts DC but we we got offered a like Who tour with the rats in America doing some gigs and we couldn't go because Mountain was Ill so foxy was like Yeah The Who was were massive you know massively massively sort of working class real punk band in a way you know I mean yeah and then so the who were there damned were there and then we were going to go and play with the who it just made sense you know yeah and but we couldn't go so I think that I think everybody was quite you know up yeah upset annoyed in various um stages you know but the the thing that remains really is the sadness the loss of him uh the waste and the fact that it was on the way up you know so who knows what would have happened but I mean like you say about yeah the Ros DC album had that you know the shadow of it inevitably had the shadow of that death on it um I mean I can't believe we did it it's crazy but in a way it's good to have that documented in in a sense yeah as an artist was there any hints on there where the ruts would have gone or was it a completely different records completely different record I think we we because we started writing um we started writing really together as a as as a threepiece because um because malol would just wasn't available and he he he wouldn't turn up and then when he did come along he' disappear for hours you know I can't let's not document all that it's all been documented but um but the idea was like we were still writing music and then and that that's what we used to do anyway uh and then Malcolm used to come with with his bag of lyrics and and put the finish in touches so it was we were although foxy was a great captain of the ship you know Malcolm was kind of the obviously the the front man what you want to call he was always a figurehead you know and you look at it like a ship of Falls going onto the Rocks you know paron the um but so we didn't have that so we were kind of writing lyrics ourselves and Foxy well we're just w we we we'll do it like a couple of just couplets couplets so I wasn't s such a good of writer then and I was working with quite a lot but I think it was always with a view of Malcolm coming back and even if he walked in and go that's that's rabbit she and then writing something good you know um but so we went on to do those songs and so it became a totally different album and the same time we we carried on because we loved each other and we we LED playing the music together and we the idea was to totally change the name of the band and we had all these name band names but basically this is all well with document as well virgin said if you change your name we're going to drop you and I kind of wish we' had done that but we didn't because we wanted to make more music if you see what I mean so we came up with a compromise R DC which I really hated and everybody hated and they they said well you're going to have to be the singer because you got the best voice and I was like what i' never never I want to be the singer and get rid of him out it was like it was never like that in uh but foxy used to sing PSAL I sang a lot and but it kind of lost its rud because we also were very Democratic so we put vocals SE vocals Fox vocals ruffy which was lovely but no one I suppose if you're going to sell a product you got to have a front man in a way and I wasn't so good in those days it was it was it was hard you know um so um but as me and ruy both say I think the good thing is that when we reform this time we reformed ruts DC not the ruts and that made me us very happy that we' gone through that hell of being R DC because we went to Germany and stuff like people just shouting it was like it was like when people say you know people say go what's it lot you know don't you get some grief on stage I said that's nothing what we're getting now is nothing to compared to what we used to get like can and stuff but we used to Soldier on through you know because we were so strong foxy wouldn't listen to any you know you just like he such a great guitarist and uh you know you should do that so yeah um that's where we went with that and then obviously you know the story and then we split up in the end because I think the grief just was too much for us in the end you know it too much it was too much for us all to be together because when we got together it was so powerful but it was the the grief was mounting two years afterwards and so we ended up splitting up because we did a some sad tour and um yeah and then foxy said uh I remember going over there kind of patching up some things we hadn't fallen out and he said to me you know you never told me I was a good guitarist and I said I said are you joking I said you taught me my I play Bas you know you taught me everything I could play a little bit of acoustic guitar you told me everything you're fantastic as son and I said well hang on a minute you never told me it was any good the face and he said you're the best pa player I ever played with and I said well you know what the you know we never told each other and and that caused a problem for him and it was just like you're crazy you know would you say you why would he need to know but um actually like all people are quite sensitive really M probably need know as well you know he like we were just chances really but it all kind of works you a strange way then you spent like years doing lots of session work I mean was that part of the the coping process really just to immerse yourself in other people's bands or or or is it practical just because you need the work I think uh I I never really thought that the music business owed me a living um but it I just fell into stuff I didn't do too much sessions I just got asked a few times never was very good at joining bands Rafi always says he became a bit of a tour slap but I don't see he did he played with everybody but look what he did like kind of water boys and I mean a camera producing stuff because of that but a lot of the sessions I did were by default of ruffy being involved I.E Cy M and stuff like that which I did enjoy but I was never very good at taking orders and and and and then I ended up joining Alabama 3 for my sins just because I met him in brickton basically but that time I was just hanging out I wasn't I was doing quite a lot of dance music and just making music myself never really wanted to be a session musician really because too much pressure I didn't I didn't even thought I was that good you know really um so but I did a lot of stuff with ruffy which is a different thingers Rhythm Section um so then I was in Alabama 3 for a while uh well too long really like 12 years it turned out like playing them it's like everything times 10 surely is it uh Christ they were like it's just like a yeah just like a rolling circus really uh but wonderful wonderful people actually and D Wayne who's now gone and uh Rob very super encouraging about music and just taking a piss it was great so it was a kind of very good antidote to to everything that hadn't been done I ended up producing quite a lot of their albums you know like three four or five three or four five I can't remember but I was always there and sometimes I wouldn't be there so I ended up being on stage with them and um it was a bloody good laugh I got to say but I mean as far as rock and roll touring on the tour bus concerns people say to me you ever done a tour of USS tour and I go oh yeah dop smoking upstairs dop smoking downstairs and you know all through the vents and everything look kind of crazy to much for me really and then in the end in the end but they the tour manager the Tom John Walsh and Rob the singer we started doing this ruts remix stuff and he said well why are you coming you know we're going to get a support band why don't you be the support band so I did I think when I first met not when I REM met you remember we did Manchester and then uh you got did B burners I recall and um yeah um we did some gig supporting them so I had two different suits like you know one for one for the support B which was ruts and one for Alabama 3 I loved it you start pushing your to the nth um and in the end you know the ruts kind of took over and uh I didn't really have to push myself too much with Alabama's you know I just you know a lot lot of program Bas and I'd just be as a character on stage which which was good and I learned a hell of a lot from them and um ever since Rob has been so so you know encouraging with the with the the new songs and he just you know he listened to it you've done it again and it's great you need that in your life you know as opposed to what are you doing you know but they're still going they're still going Stronger Yeah yeah they're still you can't get rid of them here they come again you know but they're lovely people really I mean did had you always want to go back to doing something in the ruts area and you know playing together again not really no I think I think what what happened was when we made rib we made ribbon Collision to the reggae side of things I never had a problem with that because it was you know foxy was in he was involved very much in rib cusion one but uh he he was he come and got just used to play over the it was a Rhythm Section thing really but he was very integral to it but so when we it's a long story but when we did two two it was larg me and rfy with with other guests you know so um that all came out and then he said i' be great if we could go and do festivals so people wanted to put us to go and do this Rego stuff at festivals and and actually what happened was it's very difficult if it's me and ruffy it's the ruts right or it's the ruts Rhythm Section so babylon's bur is going to rear its head eventually ja war is going to rear its head s they all at the r boys it's all fairly reggae based in a way and so we ended up doing these that support tour with Alabama 3 doing some of those songs a lot of the new newer stuff reg based but obviously people wanted to hear Babylon so we did Babylon and we did stand a root boys and we said well let's just do the ones we like and um it turned out when we started playing and we kind of for that's great so we sort did it and I was singing in a different way and uh I've done you know done lots of rock and roll with Alabama 3 so my voice had got got bit bit more rock and roll and um I don't know uh we just carried on from there really um Revisited then because Lee hegerty got involved uh we started working stuff out like on the guitar for for um rude boys and stuff like that and they they start it was ruffy and Lee read it said what about Dangerous Minds that's a really good song I'm not doing anything from that album I said I hate that animal now album It's grief but actually when we broke it down and we played it I thought it was pretty good song and a wrote something that with foxy really so that was that kind of take kill um and then it went on some others mirror smashed and we started playing some stuff from that album yeah and so they're good songs but they're all yeah I mean the subjects all basically the same aren't they it's still it's still it's still about it's still it's still anti-government it's not so much politics it's still thinking for yourself it's still thinking that you know what what politician are you going to vote for because most of the time we vote for people to keep somebody else out you really and but you show me someone not since Tony Ben and I was too young then really but Tony Ben I would vote for because I think actually meant it for the people uh no one else I've ever had since really I think I think they're all about themselves as Tony Blair proved so much you know when you think about lab well this guy he seems quite good but I don't think politics are really the answer but um but the personal politics are so yeah that's what the best what band can offer it's interesting in look at the L and the story of the band you know there is a positive EMP powering thing in the story but also a lot of negative stuff you've had to deal with as well isn't it it's almost like yeah it's almost like the band didn't listen to their own messages sometimes was the first song I learned you know Paul fox show be the Baseline and they'd kind of written and uh and I didn't realize what it was about you know and I said scratch your nose you like it when it shows what does that mean go oh it's Bo about boat in a PO you know cuz some people like to show off when they're doing drugs and it was about him you know I didn't know I mean uh you know it's just like I mean love in vain we've been doing Love In Vain acoustically and it's like painful man to do it but but you can hear a pin drop when you do it and um we do it in a kind of sweet reggae style but and I tell the story we we just had a jam and then uh he came in with those lyrics and you know who knew it was just the bside who who knew that it was going to be so prophetic and so it's so painful that song you know and I think he was going through it you know people say could you have done more well no not really because we weren't all partying that up and just ignoring him we were really trying to help him and he was really a friend of ours and I think he he couldn't handle it he just used to disappear you know he couldn't handle the in a way he couldn't handle the love and the care because he just knew he' lost it a bit you know it's expect him to go you know you have to help yourself in the end that's the problem is it yeah it is and it's very difficult to anyone out there that's had to deal with this kind of situation be it their daughter son friend it's is that drug is particularly difficult because and and and and so is alcohol you know I mean it's like you don't think so because we you know social drinking is one thing um obviously you know in my life I've been close to the where oh getting a bit much they drinking a bit much and uh but if you've got some sort of meter within your side inside yourself to to be don't act like a [ __ ] you know that can pull you back and and unfortunately some people don't have that do they they get so drunk or so out of it that they they don't realize they're just really being ruining other people's lives I don't blame it's not their fault is it they've been uh sued by somebody who provides it you know I think it's somebody else's fault really yeah it kind of is but I mean you know we're all our own Warrior John you know in the end of the day is just like you know there but for the grace of whoever go I um but I mean but I guess I've always had friends around me and go you know go you really have it last night you know you're acting like a right [ __ ] he has said that to me you know I mean yeah and I've Had My Moments with ruffy where I said really you know and uh you know we both quote each other for that for uh it's been a beautiful friendship and still is uh very very important to you know you you can't I don't know I think we're in a good place the M because we go out and present this you know everybody probably think we you know a lot fitter than we are I mean you sort of get there and do it than you for the adrenaline and and uh be know feel no pain on stage really uh and adrenaline is a is a great drug but you still do get C Downs of it though you definitely you know I mean you you I mean you do you know what he's like when you're not doing anything and I don't know about you when I get back off a tour you know I go I don't feel too bad and then it's two days in bed you feel like you've been hit yeah and it's like the adrenaline go and you're like you it's like but bounce back and do it again I mean when you when you get in the room and with the bound with the others you know the three of you I mean are of of the the guys still there with you do you still feel like marol s over your shoulder people do talk about that in bands have lost members definitely they both are there I mean people think I'm just bullshitting but I'm not when when we did the crack tour which I didn't want to do uh you know re you know the 40 Years of the crack and I didn't want to do it but everyone said if you do that then any we ended up not earning any money at it but but but people liked it um but there was one bit we was in a Savage Circle which was particularly different um got played a bass log and sing and uh I was singing and and in the in the um in the chorus you know I said I turned around and went like to co that's great when you sing along and they both wenten we weren't singing along and it was like I had this double track and you know it was like the ghost was singing along me because I could really hear it and you know I don't know you know but uh but even in even in non-spiritual terms the their Essence is definitely there in the songs all the time like I say when I play rud boys you think oh foxy that's brilliant and uh and M too and it was interesting doing the crack because you go back and listen to songs you've been singing and then you sing oh we didn't sing it like that actually he didn't we often we call it an exercise we obviously interupt become this huge flowery thing sometimes sometimes we go back listen to the single and we take it right back to that short intro and we do it we keep it we listen to it and then we take it right back and we do that every couple of years to S remind ourselves that we're not a prog rock band you know we're still playing you know we're still playing that single it's very important to go back and revisit your stuff and keep it uh Integrity intact of course yeah I mean in a sense that what you do is you're the curator of the RS and rs DC of that stuff but also going forward at the same time aren't you in the spirit of those bounds I suppose we are I mean it takes someone like you to to you know find you know like put that down into terms I suppose and that's good yeah I mean we don't sit around going like you know we the C cators of this but at the same time as as we spoken about it um the Legacy does mean a lot to us you know and uh but we like to move on and like to keep ourselves interested so music Master destroy was going to be the last album and then it wasn't and then we did Counter Culture which we you know I know that on your I don't know if on your LinkedIn or somewhere you Minister for Counter Culture uh we called it Counter Culture because ruffy was really a Counter Culture and you know wrote those lyrics because he said that whatever happened to The Counter Culture the dreamless soldier the lies they told you what happened to The Voice of Freedom that kept us breathing did we stop believing you know that's sums it up really and I can't believe we sort of did it and uh we sort of sped it up and made it a little bit more deep purple and we goes that works you know and um so I don't know it's just like uh yeah you got to mean it if you're going to sing those sort of lyrics and so as long as those lyrics keep coming we'll we'll carry on doing it um I'm always trying to write love songs but hear but love songs AR you know they're part of The Human Experience though aren't they it's valid completely they are they are look buzcocks one of the great and great look Bittersweet love songs they are those songs are brilliant I mean Shel was a great writer really it's it's not gooey love songs it's it's they standing at the bus stop in the rain right yeah yeah and right from right from new off with spiral scratch you know we when Devoto was they they were just like amazing really Ju Just Amazing songs and uh they inspired us I definitely um um but I think I think you know we jump right back to then but all the punk bands that were doing it invert commas you know I felt although there was a hell of a lot of uh you know friction between all the bands really when you were out there but I felt that everybody was in all involved in the same Mission you know uh you know because now if you ever B me to Charlie from UK subs and he's still going we you know it's respect from us both but back in the day you know the bands hated each other all the B he like we're better than them and it was always our job to blow the other band away you know and I think that was healthy you know it it was healthy and now everybody when when when you get those like London uh what they called um Northwest calling and stuff and there's loads of the band gbh and when we walked into the dressing room it's f hey you're still alive you know it's a different thing you know it's a different thing now yeah I can't believe it it's amazing is it are you surprised by the longevity of punk and what what is punk in 2024 I don't know what the hell it is I I don't know what I don't like the term I didn't use it for a long term for a long time CUA but I think really it's an attitude and it's a it's a vision I think you should still keep the the can do attitude to pass it on I think for me we were always a little bit more politically edged in the way not not really who to vote for but your own politics as I've said like to you know try and be aware and try and take care of other people and that Community thing I kind of have visions of that Reggae Unity thing so the People Unite think that's what Punk is for me just continuing that it's it's certainly not about the fashion it's because I can't have Sparky here anymore of course um and it's not well I never did but uh I think yeah that's that's what it is for me this week you know um I don't really like going to see bands that just shouty punk bands because it's boring is it really it's bit boring yeah you're more the melodic sort of classic tradition really AR they yeah with the groove the groove we've got to have the groove I mean ruffy puts a Groove into anything we do didn't he I mean well we do but I mean ruffy you know if he's playing anything is from in rup to anything else it's got that Groove you can still nod to it and I think that's important yeah that kind back to the beginning really of the interview when the idea that punk had his best was obviously the intensity of it was great but it's it's it's when it's the fusion of other stuff other ideas if it's like babylon's burning comes from Funk James Brown rout baseline or yeah but when you it all together that's when you get the good stuff is it it is I think I mean and and of course that some of its parts that band and um was you know thinking about in babylon's burning you know there's a some of its parts definitely and and maybe I would allow myself to say the Baseline did come out of funk because I've been listening to it but I I didn't think about that at the time it was just like what you pick up it's given the opportunity to pick up the base and play something what have you got I've got this oh great and Foxy was really brilliant because he I later on I'd go I got this on the guitar and he' go great and he'd just go over and grab the bass you know and he go he wouldn't go well I'm the guitarist you know it just be so we went off cuz we did around that period demolition dancing and secret soldiers they were all they never really got finished but uh but they um they were really potentially really good like crafted songs and Foxy was just great at arranging you know just that should happen there cut that down and um yeah yeah so I think Lee was a great find as well I think what you got now you know often bands don't get that second chance they get the second chance to tour a lot but second chance to actually be creative and do stuff actually fits in the cannon well he's he's a rarity because he he was a fan and he plays the songs correctly the old songs but he's also obviously over the years become more involved in writing from the off you know so uh and that's not it's not easy to come into me and ruffy honestly because we you know we're L an old married couple anyway you know I mean I think we both say that um because but we love each other we still see each other and great the other I saw them yesterday and uh well Sunday and we I had a pint he had a he came on his motorbike so he had a I had a pint he had a lime juice and soda and we didn't talk about any business and it was great it's great you know oh lot this that see you later then so we still have that and and I think that's really important you know obviously we have um history onic moments you're going to after like I've known it 48 years or something um yeah and um but Leaf slots into that and he has to sort of put up with quite a lot as well I suppose uh but uh you know he's he loves it too I think and he does a great job I hope you going to cat all this bit out because I'm going to have to put his wages up that's where I'll end