Trump ‘loves a cliffhanger’ as he weighs up agreeing to a third debate: Peter Baker

WILL NOT PREVAIL IN THIS WAR AND THE PEOPLE OF UKRAINE -- >> LET'S BRING IN PETER BAKER, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST, CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT FOR THE NEW YORK TIMES, AND CO- AUTHOR OF "THE DIVIDER: TRUMP IN THE WHITE HOUSE FROM 2017- 2021." WELCOME, MY FRIEND. CHECKING OUT YOUR NEW ARTICLE, PETER, YOU SAID THIS ISSUE WOULD COME TO A HEAD DURING THAT BILATERAL MEETING. DID IT? AND WHAT IS THE CALCULUS AROUND USING UKRAINE -- ALLOWING UKRAINE TO USE THE LONG-RANGE WEAPONS? IS THERE AN OBVIOUS, STRATEGIC PURPOSE, ADVANTAGE TO IT? >> YEAH, THERE IS A REAL DEBATE GOING ON RIGHT NOW ABOUT THIS IN THE WEST AND IN WASHINGTON IN PARTICULAR. IF YOU ASKED THE DEFENSE DEPARTMENT, WHAT THEY WILL SAY IS THEY DON'T THINK IT IS A GOOD IDEA TO ALLOW UKRAINIANS TO USE THESE ATTACKERS, THAT IS WHAT THEY CALL THESE LONG-RANGE WEAPONS, IN PART BECAUSE THEY SAY 90% OF THE AIRBASES THAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT IN RUSSIA, THAT ARE AMOUNTING THESE ATTACKS ON RUSSIA ARE OUTSIDE OF THE RANGE OF THOSE WEAPONS ANYWAY, AND THEREFORE ON THE ONE HAND, IT WOULDN'T DO AS MUCH GOOD AS PEOPLE HOPE IT WOULD DO. AND ON THE OTHER, THERE IS A WORRY, OBVIOUSLY, AND PRESIDENT BIDEN HAS NURSED THIS WORRY OF MORE THAN TWO YEARS, OF ESCALATION. THAT IS WHY HE HAS ASKED FOR A SLOW ROLE AT TIMES, AND PROVISION OF CERTAIN WEAPONS, WORRYING THAT IF YOU GAVE UKRAINE THIS WEAPON OR THAT WEAPON, IT WOULD ESCALATE WITHIN RUSSIA, TO THE POINT THAT THINGS WOULD GET TO WHERE VLADIMIR PUTIN IS TALKING ABOUT, THAT IT WOULD BE A WAR WITH NATO, THAT IT COULD EVEN ESCALATE INTO A NUCLEAR CONFLICT. THAT HAS BEEN HIS CONCERN ALL ALONG. AT THE SAME TIME, HE ULTIMATELY ENDS UP PROVIDING ALL OF THESE WEAPONS ANYWAY. THE DIFFERENCE HERE, THEY ARE NOT WEAPONS FOR USE ON UKRAINIAN TERRITORY. WHAT THE UKRAINIANS WANT IS TO BE ABLE TO USE THEM AGAINST RUSSIAN TERRITORY, AND THE WORRY, THAT IS A REDLINE FOR VLADIMIR PUTIN. >> YEAH, SO, GIVE ME A SENSE OF THE U.S.' GOAL, PETER. DOES IT SEEM THAT ESCALATING IS THE ONLY PATH BEING CONSIDERED? OR, ARE THERE LEGIT DE- ESCALATION PATHS IN SIGHT, TOO? >> WELL, I MEAN, YOU KNOW, , THE PRESIDENT OF UKRAINE, HAS TALKED ABOUT HAVING A PEACE CONFERENCE OF SOME SORT IN NOVEMBER, HE WANTS TO HAVE A PLAN THAT HE WILL PRESENT, AT THE U.N. BUT, IT DOESN'T SEEM LIKE THERE IS TERRITORY RIGHT NOW FOR A NEGOTIATED SOLUTION. FOR ONE THING, THERE IS NO UNDERSTANDING THAT VLADIMIR PUTIN IS EITHER INTERESTED IN A NEGOTIATED SOLUTION, OR WOULD ABIDE BY ONE, EVEN IF HE DID SIGN SOMETHING. REMEMBER, HE HAS SIGNED CEASE- FIRES IN UKRAINE BEFORE, PRIOR TO THE BIG INVASION. NUMBER, THIS STARTED IN 2014, AND NOT ALWAYS LIVED UP TO THAT. SO, PUTIN'S WORD IS NOT THAT GOOD, OBVIOUSLY, IN THE WEST, CERTAINLY IN UKRAINE. BUT, THERE IS A LOT OF EXHAUSTION WITH THE WAR. UKRAINE, TWO AND HALF YEARS OF WAR, TENS OF THOUSANDS OF SOLDIERS AND CIVILIANS KILLED, IF NOT MANY MORE THAN THAT. I DON'T HAVE THE LATEST ESTIMATE. AND SO, OBVIOUSLY, YOU CAN SEE WHERE THAT MIGHT BE A PROBLEM, BUT I'D PUTIN PART, HE SEES NO REASON TO DO ANYTHING UNTIL NOVEMBER, WAITS UNTIL THE RESULT OF THE PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION. IF HE GETS DONALD TRUMP IN THERE, THAT IS A WHOLE DIFFERENT BALL GAME. >> OKAY, LET'S TALK ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED DURING THE CELEBRATION OF BLACK EXCELLENCE IN THAT BRUNCH AT THE WHITE HOUSE YESTERDAY. PRESIDENT BIDEN SLAMMED TRUMP FOR HIS REPEATED LIES ABOUT HAITIAN IMMIGRANTS IN OHIO EATING PETS. AND YET, ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE COUNTRY, THE FORMER PRESIDENT DOUBLE DOWN ON RELATED REMARKS DURING A PRESS CONFERENCE IN CALIFORNIA. LET'S ALL TAKE A LISTEN TO THIS, EVERYONE. >> WE WILL DO LARGE DEPORTATIONS FROM SPRINGFIELD, OHIO, LARGE DEPORTATIONS -- WE ARE GOING TO GET THESE PEOPLE OUT. IT IS LIKE AN INVASION FROM WITHIN, AND WE ARE GOING TO HAVE THE LARGEST DEPORTATION IN THE HISTORY OF OUR COUNTRY. >> IT'S SIMPLY WRONG! THERE'S NO PLACE IN AMERICA -- THIS HAS TO STOP, WHAT HE IS DOING. IT HAS TO STOP! >> PRESIDENT BIDEN HAS NOT SAID MUCH ABOUT TRUMP SINCE LEAVING THE RACE, OTHER THAN, YOU KNOW, CAMPAIGN SPEECHES FOR VICE PRESIDENT KAMALA HARRIS. BUT, OF ALL OF THE CHILDISH THINGS, OR OUTLANDISH THINGS, HOWEVER YOU WANT TO CATEGORIZE IT, THE THINGS TRUMP HAS SAID RECENTLY, WHAT YOU THINK PROMPTED THE PRESIDENT TO ADDRESS THIS CRAZY CLAIM AT THIS EVENT? >> WELL, I THINK THIS ONE KIND OF BROKE THROUGH, IN A WAY, TO THE LARGER CULTURE. THE NOTION THAT DOGS AND CATS WERE BEING EATEN IN SPRINGFIELD, OHIO, AS WE JUST HEARD FROM THE PREVIOUS REPORTER WAS FAR-FETCHED TO BEGIN WITH, AND HAS NOW BEEN DEBUNKED, AND THE FACT THAT THE PRESIDENT WOULD PROPAGATE THAT ON NATIONAL TELEVISION, I THINK HAD A LARGER CULTURAL MOMENT THAT MANY OF THE ANTI-IMMIGRANT SPEECHES HE MAKES. SO, YOU KNOW, YOU HEARD THE PRESIDENT ADDRESSED THIS, BUT REMEMBER, PRESIDENT BIDEN WAS FOLLOWING HIS WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY WHO SPOKE A FEW MOMENTS EARLIER AND NOTED THAT SHE, HERSELF, IS HAITIAN- AMERICAN. IT IS ALSO IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER THAT WHEN TRUMP TALKS ABOUT MASS DEPORTATIONS IN SPRINGFIELD, MANY IF NOT MOST OF THESE IMMIGRANTS ARE HERE LEGALLY, UNDER A PROGRAM UNDER GEORGE W. BUSH, ALLOWING IMMIGRANTS FROM CERTAIN COUNTRIES IN GREAT DISTRESS TO STAY IN THE COUNTRY AND WORK LEGALLY. SO, IT IS NOT THAT MOST OF THESE PEOPLE ARE HERE ILLEGALLY. IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT THERE IS NOT STRESS IN THE SYSTEM IN SPRINGFIELD. THAT OBVIOUSLY IS A CONCERN, WHEN YOU HAVE A SMALL TOWN SUDDENLY HAVING A LARGE INFLUX OF PEOPLE FROM ANYWHERE, THERE IS STRESS ON SERVICES AND SO FORTH. BUT, THE WAY THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP DEPICTS IT MAKES IT VERY DYSTOPIAN, AND OF COURSE, DISTORTS THE PICTURE WHEN HE SAYS THINGS ABOUT DOGS BEING EATEN, AND IMPLIES THAT THESE PEOPLE ARE HERE ALL ILLEGALLY. >> YEAH, SO, LET'S TALK ABOUT DONALD TRUMP, WHO SAID THAT THERE WOULD BE NO MORE DEBATES WITH VICE PRESIDENT HARRIS. BUT, HIS FORMER WHITE HOUSE COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR IS NOT BUYING IT. TAKE A LISTEN. >> IT IS 100% THAT HE IS GOING TO DEBATE. >> REALLY? >> I WILL MAKE THAT PREDICTION HERE. HE KNOWS HE LOST THE DEBATE AND HE KNOWS HE IS DEBATING HER AGAIN, BUT HE HAS TO HAVE A BUILD UP, HE THINGS IT IS IN NEGOTIATING SHIP, HE WANTS TO SHOW HIS MACHO FLEX. >> DESPITE ALL OF THE NO, NO, NO, IT IS NOT HAPPENING, LAST NIGHT, TRUMP SLIGHTLY WAVERED ON THE ISSUE, SAYING THAT HE WOULD DEBATE HARRIS AGAIN, IF YOU GOT IN THE RIGHT MOOD. IS ANTHONY SCARAMUCCI RIGHT? CAN TRUMP REALLY RESIST THE CHALLENGE? OR, WOULD A POTENTIAL FEAR OF A SECOND LOSS KEEP THEM FROM DOING ANOTHER ONE? IS THERE, PETER, ANY EVIDENCE THAT HE EVEN SEES TUESDAY'S DEBATE AS A LOSS? >> WELL, PEOPLE AROUND HIM UNDERSTAND THAT IT WAS, AND I THINK THAT WILL OBVIOUSLY FACTOR INTO THE EQUATION. I THINK ONE THAT YOU KNOW -- AND I THINK MR. SKINNER IN WHICH HE WAS MAKING THIS POINT -- DONALD TRUMP LOVES A SUCCESSFUL SHOW, A CLIFFHANGER, 14 SEASONS WITH "THE APPRENTICE," HE HAD TO MAKE PEOPLE COME BACK FOR MORE. SO, HE SAYS, NO, NO, NO, THEN MAYBE, THE NEST, SO IT LOOKS LIKE HE IS TRYING TO BEGIN THAT GAME WHICH HE HAS PLAYED IN THE PAST, WHERE HE STRINGS PEOPLE ALONG FOR A WHILE, KEEPS THEM GUESSING, AND TRIES TO IMPOSE CONDITIONS THAT HE THINGS MIGHT BE ADVANTAGEOUS TO HIM. LOOKS, HE HAS AIDED REASON TO DEBATE AGAIN, IF YOU WANT TO. BECAUSE IN FACT, MOST PEOPLE DO PERCEIVE THAT HE LOST THAT DEBATE, RIGHTLY OR WRONGLY, THAT IS WHAT THE FLASH POLLS SHOW, THAT IS WHAT THE PUNDITS HAVE BEEN SAYING, INCLUDING REPUBLICANS AND ALLIES OF HIS.