Matt Willis: Showing Shame To The Light

so welcome to another episode of they think it's all sober and we have a very special guest with us today The Specialist of guests nice I like that yeah a specialist he's a specialist specialist we have a specialist it is none other than Mr Matt Willis hi hi it's good to be I love it in here thank you so much thank you for joining us and thank you at such short notice as well we got introduced by a mutual friend yeah and we obviously have mutual interests and thus we thought why nothing better than just Expediting this process within 3 days email lock it in record done done I like I like that yeah yeah no thank you for joining us no it's good to be man it's really good to be I think what you guys doing is great you know the more kind of talking about this the better you know yeah yeah thank you and likewise I mean yeah obviously I want to thank you as well for you know the awareness that you kind of giving especially with the documentary you did BBC about addiction and everything else so thank you I think you're helping raise awareness and changing a lot of you know lives in a positive way way so yeah thanks man thanks it was it was a weird thing it's kind of like I was I wanted to do it but I didn't want it to be about me yeah you know I wanted it to really be about science and kind of like looking into brain chemistry and kind of like finding out what's different about an alcoholic or drug addict's brain you know and I kind of um and we did all that like so we filmed like for like four months and we went to [ __ ] um I'm swearing load sorry go um uh and we went to like different places we talked to scientists we went went to like this amazing um uh like the Royal College and stuff and talk to these people that are doing psychedelic therapy and all this kind of stuff which was amazing really interesting but at the heart of it I think it was a was our story you know so kind of like and every time we went to that in the edit it felt like we were trying to I don't know take it took away from the story you know so really weird so it's really hard for me to kind of let go of that stuff because I loved it you know and I was really interested in it and i' I'm obsessed with anything like that so it's really hard to kind of go I get what you're saying it does take away from the story but can we put one bit in you you find you were like having to rebalance that edit then cuz I guess that emotive side of it is important right yeah and I can only see me yeah you know and Emma and just go what the [ __ ] are we doing you know like why are we doing this you know and um and I kept battling with that I was like but then I knew why we were doing it you know and also I think introducing Emma's side was really important I kind of had to talk her into it a little bit but I was like no one really talks about the effect that addiction has on the people that love them yeah you know and it's such a big thing you know like can people deal with this you know um every day you know it's never really talked about so I kind of wanted to get that sing too I think that's really important and you know someone that you know grew up with you know someone who was an addict in my house and you know someone that likewise yeah my father passed away through herin addiction so right we sort you see it growing up don't you and you have to just it's bizarre cuz you think you're never going to become the thing that you were running away from but sometimes you almost Gaslight yourself into becoming it yeah that's so true you know and you don't see it coming you know you kind of always say I'm never going to do that I'm never going to be that you know slowly but surely you you I think I put so many things in my life I'll never do that I'll never do that slowly but surely I jumped over all those [ __ ] walls you know it's just like oh now everything I said I wasn't going to be def baby yeah yeah exactly but no but that is really important you know from from the other side of like you know growing up or you know loving someone who isn't addict or um but yeah no it's really important but I think to sort of I think Jam's touch base a little bit on the format of the podcast but the I guess the whole idea is we kind of go back to I suppose childhood almost in like early memories of alcohol how it played and then go sort of into you know we always describe the relationship with alcohol as like The Good the Bad and the Ugly and um that's going to be the format of our first live show don't give it away man Jesus Christ people are paying big bucks for that her house that's a 2 membership to see us but then I think the over the real positive thing is actually she like the then moving into the sort of benefits of sobriety and how you know techniques and things that you've maybe learned along the way to keep you you know on the straight and narrow and you know stuff that can really benefit our listeners and people that are tuning in but um I don't know should we should we go back yeah do you want to step to my time machine love to fine this wasn't the hot time I was promised no next that's fine 5 years ago we would have inot that was the best time machine noise yet no I thought I'd give it some extra Gusto today oh I've just bought gust I swear to God I'm just like an walking advert for G please is available desperately need the money um but yeah so we always like to take our guest kind of back to your first memories of alcohol and that might be in the house or you trying it what were kind of your first steps into into drinking I me I kind of I kind of from a very early age up in pups you know my mom worked in a PB she was a barid and my my mom and dad split up when I was free but my dad was in the pub every day you know so like whenever I'd see him we'd be in the pub you know and kind of like I'd be in the pub garden with a packet Cris and a bottle of coke you know that would be kind of like every like four nights of the week you know four days of the week really you know so it's kind of from a very early age alcohol is kind of always around me but um I think you know and also I used to do these my mom used to make me do these t L shows and I used to hate them and and it's only when I got to like 11 I [ __ ] hated them but before like um I quite enjoyed that time that we had cuz we you know it just be me and her in a car we drive somewhere I have to sing in some talent show the song that she picked and she'd made me [ __ ] do it you know and um and uh and sometimes I'd be really nervous and my n would be there and she' give me a shot of Belle's whiskey must have been like 10 11 to calm my nerves yeah she get me a single bless her you know um I love her so much much you know but she's um she's give me this shot the single shot of Bell's whiskey like 10 you know and I I'd drink it and I remember vividly feeling that kind of warm feeling in my throat and going going I love that you know and so I'd look forward to the next show because I get that little the little shot of that horrible tasting amazingness you know and um and I didn't like the taste I didn't like the taste but I loved the way it made me feel and it was kind of quite instant cuz it burnt a bit and it kind of felt very visceral you know like very um very um I don't know it was powerful you know and I loved it but I don't ever think I was pissed you know but I should have been really on a shot of B's whiskey but yes a bit of something definitely yeah AB but also I was really nervous you know I kind of didn't really like doing it I hated doing it and so but um I the shot so so from like 10 or 11 I was doing that but then I think you know like everyone my age you know it was kind of drinking in parks and that kind of thing and um and I was always very different to everyone else like I I was you know I think there a reoccurring theme I kind of hear with addicts is I was felt quite uncomfortable in my own skin I was felt like everyone thought I was a dick you know and so um and I would drink and I would feel different you know and it kind of gave me gave me something which I didn't understand I needed you know and well I always knew I needed to be not an uncomfortable weirdo but you know like um it kind of gave me something and I'd relaxed and I kind of be able to talk and talk to girls you know and that kind of thing kind of them until I puked you know you know you know go so well then PES coming out my nose you know what a slog no you know but um you know it was um and that was kind of like but I was all I would always be getting really kind of blackout drunk from a very early age and um I I kind of I kind of learned you know that that was a that was not working you know so maybe don't pierce the can and and and you know don't do two blowbacks of weed before you [ __ ] drink that I still did it many many times but I kind of knew what the dangers were you know and um but I loved it I loved drinking you know I didn't really like alcohol like I didn't really like the taste like um I grew to love it you know but I didn't really I didn't ever think oh I love like I never really got wine like people love wine I was like just down it you know like it wasn't yeah it just wasn't a thing for me I had a girlfriend once Who Loved red win so I drunk loads of it and I was just like [ __ ] you know just wasn't wasn't my thing you know what's the point of this [ __ ] you know but like you know and um yeah so from a very early age I was kind of drinking heavily and smoking weed and we became like such a thing for me and my mates like it was like it was our it was our thing you know like it was our little kind of um ritual there was everything about it from skinning up from [ __ ] you know trying to make the perfect joint from learning how to do L's stuff from an older kid you know all this kind of stuff it became really kind of um and I was fascinated by making the best splith and kind of building these stupid big ones you know you know exactly works of art you know what to smoke because it's so [ __ ] beautiful you know but you do you and um and I remember like um like one of the first times I smoked weed like um I had like a hit and we're doing a hit and run you know so you hold it in until it comes back to you remember holding it in and feeling something and not managing to hold it until it came back to me and breathing out and then just counting the time until it came back to me you know I just wanted that thing back in my hand you know and I didn't want to give it up you know but like um you know and I just get I became really obsessive weed for years and then um but I was uh yeah I was I was kind of a I don't know I was I was the I was the kid who was always up for it you know was a kid who was always kind of like I wasn't really you know trouble but I I would I would do the thing that people weren't were scared to do you know and I think it was all just kind of like trying to I don't know in some way prove myself or kind of like or fit in or make people like me you know so um and I had um loads of different groups of friends i' go and just [ __ ] terrorize their thing for a night or two and then disappear you know but um it was um yeah it was always on me I was going to ask like because you said about hating the talent shows were you were you quite shy and then the whiskey kind of bought something out and then you became a character or did you feel like you were always the version of Matt but then like an accentuated one or did you have to create cuz you talk a lot about creating character when it comes to alcohol and drugs yeah I mean that's that's something which I have done my entire life is um is um like people used to say I was quite a um kind of social chameleon like wherever I was I'd be able to kind of fit in with that group whoever they were you know kind of like find out little things and I'd be I'd even talk like him you know and everything you know so it was um it was a really big thing but I think with um from that age I don't really remember kind of thinking I need to to put on a a show or a character or anything I just kind of really did it cuz my mom wanted me to you know and like um and we didn't we weren't around each other very much so it was a kind of a nice time but um yeah I think it um later that became a big thing for me was that I kind of needed I I Associated every bit of my S of of anything was going well with me with the fact that I was a bit drunk or or kind of like I was drinking or using with that you know it kind of like and and so to to think about not doing that ever just became impossible yeah you know that's interesting cuz I I definitely remember being in a head space and I know you did as well where you kind of feel like it's such a strong part of your personality almost that you can't imagine doing the same [ __ ] without it it's quite daunting in a way yeah totally man totally you know but I never really I never really understood that at the time you know I kind of just always thought that I'm better with a drink you know like people seem to like me when I'm drinking or you know whatever I was doing you know but I think um you know then then then kind of the Rave scene kind of came into my life when I was about 16 17 we Mak some massively into garage and Pirate Radio and stuff and it was kind of like we were obsessed with it and so we'd kind of work all week and go out on a Saturday night to a club called Bagley in King cross and just have the literally the most incredible time of our lives and we were kind of like and we were very like normal kind of workingclass council state kids and never expressed anything but piss taking to each other and then we go to this nightclub and we tell each other we loved each other you know and [ __ ] massage each other and [ __ ] you know it's like it's exactly it's such a weird thing but um it was a massive um it was and then be embarrassed about it the next day you know so it's a really weird I didn't try and kiss you yeah exactly what you talking about yeah yeah yeah you know so it's it was a really weird thing but it was um but I I I loved it I loved that feeling of um like ecstasy was was such a big thing for me like I found something that worked really well you know and um and like one10 would last all night yeah you know I swellow this thing and it' be [ __ ] great you know and then you know that was um that was fine you know going to say were you guys like going home stopping the night come out you weren't doing like four day roll throughs no no I was about 16 when we were going to Bagley had a fake ID from Reed school you know I go there occasionally be asked for it you know but like and I was kind of starting the band with James at the time so that kind of stopped the Rave thing stopped when I got more involved with James because I had to go to South End every weekend so I worked all weeks I fought a train ticket to go go and work with him you know so kind of that kind of stopped and um and then and then things started to kind of um I think James was like James born for my band he was he was so opposite to me like he didn't never really got drunk in his life you know never touched a cigarette or spliff in his life was a real kind of like geeky goody goody in a way to me you know but I was just um we kind of formed this thing together and we kind of we it kind of worked you know in this weird way and um and he was um and he was always quite surprised at my behavior I think you know kind of like a bit but he never said anything like ever he's never said anything you know but he was always a bit like I remember bringing him back to my local area like he lived in this lovely place in in in in South called th Bay and it was like beautiful house came back to where I lived you know and went to our local Po and a fight broke out and I just saw him [ __ ] Panic so I was just like you know it was so normal for this to happen you know but like he was panicking and I was like [ __ ] man you know I got to get him out you know so I kind of wrestled him out there and got him out and went back to the house you know but it was um it was uh yeah and then that was I was kind of drinking solidly from then really wow you know from about 17 I was kind of um I was drinking as much as I could whenever I could and then I guess things happen pretty quickly for you career writers white yeah well we kind of um we kind of we didn't do anything for about well I said we anything we wrote the first album from like 16 to 18 and then we kind of tried to get signed no one would sign us with two weird looking kids and like no one would sign us we went to meet all these record companies and were like I don't get it you're two kind of weird skate kids who can't skate it's just very very strange look you know and everyone was pop and it was kind of like and we were kind writing um these we were like if I'm honest American Pie changed our life you know because we kind of got into this new music like we I was into like Green Day and Chili Peppers when I was a kid but then GIS just took over my life for years and then I kind of met James and this kind of American Pie soundtrack and kind of these things and we're introduced to these new bands and American pop punk and all this kind of stuff so really influence the way we were writing um but no one was really interested in that at the time they kind of wanted a boy band and or or a rock band we were neither of those things you know so um and uh yeah and then um and then it kind of It kind of came to a point where like this isn't working so then we held auditions and got Charlie in nice and um and Charlie came into the fold you know and then it was um but Charlie didn't really drink like me smoked a bit of weed you know but no one I was always very aware that my behavior was very different to them but I just thought they were just good you know and I was a bit and I kind of I likeed that kind of badge in a way I kind of liked being the bad one you know and I kind of and um and then I kind of wore that mask in a way as you as you said you know I kind of I kind of It kind of life and me and the band became one you know I kind of started Living as that that person who was kind of like you know it was okay to be drunk wherever he went and kind of okay to do drugs you know all that kind of stuff which it yeah probably wasn't was he up until that point I know you're saying about the the weed and we've had a couple other guests on had a similar path and myself included cuz like I was doing music and band stuff from probably like 12 13 and from there F to 17 it wasn't so much drink it was definitely more weed um and then I felt that the drinking probably came in harder like 17 like less weed got into harder drugs I was like cocaine is way better than weed and like and then same with that it was like ecstasy and MDMA is way better than that so kind of went from there do you think it was more like weed based or were you just drinking in with weed I mean weed was massive for us you know like that was kind of like I mean I remember when we first got skunk you know I was like what the [ __ ] is this you know like you know we were smoking solid having to burn [ __ ] you know like and it was like suddenly we had this other thing and like it was way more expensive but way better you know and like so that was just our you know and even when we started the band I was still smoking loads but I think I was all like being Stone didn't didn't do it for me anymore you know kind of that feeling of like being stoned wasn't working for me anymore but drinking was and also you can't smoke everywhere you go you know but you can drink everywhere you go you know it kind of slowly kind of gravitated into more more drink really nice so I guess first album comes out band blows up yeah that must have been an amazingly exciting incredible time for you guys yeah what was the correlation there with the drinking and the drugs and how did that start to emerge and did you feel like that had a negative effect on yourself or the character or I'd love to know kind of how those first couple of years of success played out cuz I guess from the outside in everyone's like wow that must be incredible but you never know what someone's feeling yeah I think it was um it was I mean it was mixed really because we kind of didn't really see it coming we were just we were kind of from the first single we were kind of on this train that you can't [ __ ] get off and it's just like we didn't have a day off ever you know we were just like and and we were in this pop World which was I mean especially for Charlie was not what he [ __ ] wanted you know and it was kind of like so it's a real battle with us it's like who are we you know like we didn't really understand I was I if honest honest if I'm honest I was just stoked to be there I was just like I'm going to [ __ ] ride this as long as I can I kind of expect and also all my every aspiration I'd had had happened when the album came out and i' got a [ __ ] album in HMV I was like may we W sick you know so so everything that happened then was was just a bonus but I think you know it kind of um that kind of credibility thing really e away at me a bit the fact that people didn't take us seriously all that kind of stuff really played on my mind a little bit so I think I acted up a little bit more because of that I think I acted the [ __ ] rock and roll star a little bit to kind of like go to smash it you know whatever we were doing at the time you know so it's a weird kind of battle but then um but I think I was also very much a functioning alcoholic from like about 19 right you know I was kind of drinking every day and like it was um it was very apparent to people around me that it kind of wasn't normal behavior you know but um I had many figures like big kind of like important people sit me down at different points in my life and kind of go you need to look at this I was just like what you know like and and I didn't need to hear it or want to hear it at the time you know so it was um it was only much later that I kind of when you I think when you know you're a mess you definitely are a mess yeah you know and that's when the tip point was for me yeah that's that's really interesting I mean it's quite refreshing to hear that in some ways that people did actually take the time to sit you down and go maybe you should take a look at this CU there's been a lot of cases that we've talked about before where perhaps no one's bothered and just from you know certainly in the kind of in the music world as well so I mean the fact that maybe it was flagged was probably a good thing even if you didn't want to hear it yeah yeah I mean I think there's there's a big problem there you know like I think people in the in like young people that are getting the music industry it's like I don't know what it's like now I feel like we're kind of like on our own little [ __ ] planet you know so I don't really know what's happening in the music IND but um yeah but um but it was like but no one really close to me was saying that to me these were kind of people who would like I kind of knew off or you know like so so like um like one record exec kind of sat me down and was like you know but I think he was sober you know I think it was trying to twell St me at the time and I just wasn't ready to hear it yeah you know but um but yeah I think it was um but but I don't think anyone really wanted to address it because we were on such a [ __ ] ride that it's like don't rock the boat and I never wanted to say I'm I'm struggling I'm in trouble because I didn't want anything to stop you know so I was kind of trying to kind of keep my [ __ ] together and I always had this thing where I was last to bed first on the bus you know so I was like as long as I'm turning up as long as I'm there as long as I'm not like not turning up then I'm winning and I'm okay cuz point me in the right direction I can jump around and [ __ ] pull faces you know like so it's like that's that's that's done you know so um I didn't really and I I think I was kind of fooling myself into thinking that I'm I'm fine because I'm you know the other two are late yeah you know I was going to ask that question actually that that that notion of you acknowledging it yourself because obviously I'm sure I mean were you aware that you were drinking too much and doing too many drugs but like you say you were just there for the ride and you almost felt like if you had to address it things could change and the band could fall apart yeah that must have been quite a big struggle for you yeah it was it was I mean I remember being um on a flight back from Germany and um and I had been out all night and um and then I met them in the lobby and like I'd come back from a night and like walked in the lobby completely wrecked and they were waiting to go to the airport and I was like oh let's get my bag you know and I was an absolute mess but I was just pretending I was fine and then we got on the plane and they were sat behind me and with our manager at the time and he kind of bought up the fact that you might have to think about about addressing that and kind of like think about maybe yeah sure well I was had my headphones on and I was pretending I was asleep but I wasn't you know I heard everything and it was kind of like we might have to think about replacing him or something and like the other two were not best happy about it but they didn't say anything that fought for me you know and I always stuck with me so I was like you are replaceable you know don't mark this up you know this can go you know um even though me and James started it all I kind of felt like I was always on the back foot a little bit you know so it was a it was a weird thing but it didn't stop me you know it didn't stop me I kind of kept going and kind of kept doing everything I could did you ever contemplate like as you're saying in that time period you wrote the first album do you like attribute sort of the drink and the drugs to the creativity because there [ __ ] amazing album right and I don't know if that kind of came you know as a kind of fellow creative I suppose you kind of question sometimes where this these Sparks come from sometimes don't you and did you ever consider that thinking like if I change my drinking will I still be able to write and well you know funny you say that because the like the two big songs of that first record what I go to school for in Year 3000 we we wrote after being out in in clubs you know we came back pissed and wrote those songs yeah and um you know we wrote a bunch of other [ __ ] ones you know we we wrote those two in that time so there was kind of like this um and I really I I loved writing so much like me and James would just bounce ideas off each other and it was a really amazing moment and um and also being a bit pissed kind of lets you allows you to fail you know cuz you kind of got less kind of like insecurity about what you're saying you know so you come up with crazy [ __ ] and all of our songs are about crazy [ __ ] you know so I was like it's kind of yeah must have fed into that a little bit you know I never thought about that but yeah probably yeah it's interesting I mean you look at a lot of um artists and like I guess like first albums and I think quite a lot of people when they do their first albums are probably quite engulfed in some form of drinking drugs and and everything else and there's probably some correlation between the cat ity and you know there's got to be a there's some science we'll look into it what if you want to break a good record get [ __ ] up you're end I heard Joe Rogan talking about it like he was talking about like you'd always get high and write the best jokes you know so there is something you know but there is something about that but um I don't know if that's I think it's all work you know it's like more more time you spend trying to catch a fish you're going to catch one you know like so that's why we treat it now we treat it like very much like hours on the map you know you got to just [ __ ] put your time in come good you know but um but at a time yeah definitely and especially with performing like I couldn't imagine going on stage sober ever you know like that was so I needed free drinks to go on stage like there was the thought of ever going on sober would be like even on Saturday morning Telly you know like we do loads of those kind of Saturday morning TV shows I'd be drunk as [ __ ] on those shows you know like every Saturday morning like I was the worst role model for children by watching those shows I'm there completely piss I want to be like exactly exactly yeah yeah so glassy eyed and [ __ ] sweating so when when you were doing the band stuff I was quite interesting cuz um you know I think it was perhaps in your um the BBC documentary where you were saying that you would try and make it till midday to have a drink I mean was that applicable in like the band days as well did you have any kind of like hey I'll just get through to here before I have a first drink or was it kind of like well anything sort of goes and not really in the early days like it wasn't that bad I don't think I was I think there's a difference like you cross a line like um I heard someone say in a room once that once you're a girin you can never be a cucumber ever again you know and I was like brilant and I was like that's [ __ ] genius it's the worst thing I've ever heard but the best thing I've ever heard you know it was like and I think that's the point like I I crossed a threshold when I was about 23 where I couldn't make it till 12:00 p.m. like I would I would try every ounce of me to try and not drink and like wake up and say I'm not going to drink today you know and like I would I would I would desperately try and I just couldn't like shakes would happen i' feel like something i' actually I I felt like if I didn't drink I was going to die you know and like I don't know whether or not that was real could have been or it could have been just my in a [ __ ] addict going take a [ __ ] drink you know but I like there was points where it was so painful and so awful not to drink you know that I um I really felt like something terrible was going to happen unless I did and then I had that drink and that ease and comfort came over me and I felt like I could deal with it you know but it was um I mean there was years of that you know like um and then you know I mean my my story ended up with with kind of I was like I said I had these things that I said I'd never do and the last one the thing was drinking first thing in the morning and eventually I had to do that you know so it's kind of you know it was um it was a progressive illness you know in a way it kind of got worse and worse and worse yeah and at what point did you acknowledge in yourself that you were an addict um well I went to rehab twice right and I didn't think I was an addict you know I kind of went there went there the first time really because I felt that my record company were getting pissed off of me cuz I wasn't turning up for sessions and I had a solo record I was supposed to be making and I just I was just drunk and and and not really turning up so I kind of went to rehab to shut people up really and then I went again because I was in loads more [ __ ] with everybody body and um and at that point I didn't really know what to do I was like um I wanted everyone off my back but I didn't want to live sober and I'd heard in the rehab it's a [ __ ] abstinence and I was like you know no I just want to go and I kind of want a little bit of a break from me for a little while you know and then I can kind of once I'm cuz part of me was like are you just depressed are you just sad you know cuz that was an overwhelming thing with me I was just really sad and and quite dark you know and I was like I just need a break from that for a little while and the only place I knew that did that was rehab so I was like I'll go back I did four weeks there drunk within two days of being now you know so um and I'd heard all these things and they all made sense but I wasn't ready to hear it yeah you know so um I think then I the more it progressed I you know with knowledge there's responsibility you know and I think you know i' I'd heard so many things in that time I've been to see drugs counselors I've been to do everything I can spent loads of money everywhere to try and find out what's wrong with me and the elephant in the room was drinking drugs yeah but I wasn't I was like no that's not it that's not the problem it's all this other stuff that's Weighing on my shoulders you know when actually you remov that yeah and you're like oh oh that was the [ __ ] that was the that was the problem it's scary though isn't it cuz I think it's odd cuz sometimes you do that and it's like ripping off that band-aid and sometimes you think it's you you think you are the problem like I said before I really do think when you were drinking and doing a lot of drugs you Gaslight yourself yeah AB that you're the issue and that's the only way to feel better yeah and it's so mad that when you do find that that exit strategy essentially like [ __ ] hell actually I'm not I'm not as much of a [ __ ] as I thought I was yeah completely you know yeah I mean they say they say that um um the great thing about recovery is you get your feelings back but the bad thing about recovery is you get your feelings back you know and that's one thing that I didn't know how to [ __ ] deal with I was like I have been I found it completely impossible to deal with any emotion I become kind of a robot to it like um I um I would just tell people what they wanted to hear you know and then get on with self easing pain you know so it was like that's all I did so the fact to actually face anything or actually really address any problem and also I didn't really know what that [ __ ] was I I can kind of guess some childhood [ __ ] and some things that I say childhood [ __ ] big big deals you know but like at the time I was like yeah but that was then you know I just um I just think I'm you know I'm don't know I like to party and all these kind of things you know like um and and maybe other people can't keep up with me or whatever you know all these kind of things I tell myself but actually I was a [ __ ] nightmare and in a really horrible place and it wasn't it wasn't rock and roll or fun or you know I was I was remember like when I first started doing cocaine like I was I I felt so good you know and so kind of like it gave me such a [ __ ] like it was like was like a superow in my pocket you know and and and one for everyone two for myself you know like that was the way it was but then it just became and I always wanted to be out I always wanted to be with people I always wanted to be in the in the middle of the party and then slowly I just didn't want to be around anyone I wanted to be on my own doors locked on my own with cocaine drinking you know being [ __ ] miserable you know I almost wanted that you know which is so [ __ ] up you know like and it's um and and then I stopped getting invit to pies I stopped getting invites to things because I was an absolute nightmare so you know it's kind of I feel like Coke is such a Silent Assassin because everything you've just described is probably verba in pretty much what I spoke about when we did an episode about me which is that buy one for everyone else be the guy in the room have make sure you've got enough for yourself create this world around you and then all of a sudden there's I remember one day I was sat around the kitchen table being like I don't want to be here but usually I was the guy bringing everyone to the kitchen table and you're like where the [ __ ] did this come from it just gets you there just and everyone I know there like cocaine issues has said the same thing it creeps up creeps up creep Boom at home alone absolutely and it was almost like it was almost like I put myself in like a little like um like a my own little padded cell you know like and i' and i' I'd do a line and I'd be in that place yeah you know and I I didn't want to be there but also I really enjoyed being there you know so it was a really weird thing you know that queens of the Sun song um first it giveth then it taketh away you know it was like it gave me everything you know then absolutely ripped everything apart you know yeah Coke is we we talk we try and talk about it a lot cuz I feel like even in current culture it's so everywhere and it's become almost socially acceptable like I'll now see people at West Ham doing it in the pub on the table like openly and we just we're trying to be really open about it especially with men cuz we just feel like it's just such a big thing and I think when I was growing up it was so taboo so when I started it was a bit like do a bit of coke it's a bit naughty now it's almost like how people have Coke like they have a drink yeah it's it's mad yeah it's mad man I mean it's um it goes hand inand for me you know like I mean it would be it wouldn't be every day you know but it'd be on my mind every day you know so um and then it slowly I mean I think my wife moving in with me was a big shift because I couldn't hide and that was a real and I wanted her to be there I didn't want to ever be alone but I couldn't I couldn't do any I was I was she was there judging me the whole time you know so I was kind of very um and that that stopped that kind of behavior for a little while until she would go away with work or something then I'd be [ __ ] all over again you know so it was kind of um um or I'd be somewhere else I'd be in a hotel room on my own you know so it was it was always it was always hand inand for me but I think drink brought me to my knees you know like it really um Like Cocaine was something which I which I had in my life but um I never really addressed my problem with cocaine ever really like even my last in rehab I was just talked about booze the whole time and I thought booze is my problem you know and it was you know but I've since learned that everything mind altering is my problem like every [ __ ] anything whatsoever will [ __ ] that changes the way I feel kuch exactly yeah I had a kombucha in LA and I'm and I just drunk this bottle of Kombucha and I felt something different in my body like an alien substance and I knew what it was and it felt like a drink like in a way and it was like I can't understand why you know like I think I think it might have a small amount of alcohol in or something yeah I think there's a fermentation process with it there might be familiar yeah yeah and it's probably negligible the amount that's in there but for me I had a drink for 10 years and I was like [ __ ] hell something's [ __ ] in me you know I had to go home I had to go [ __ ] back to my hotel and sit on the [ __ ] bed you know I was like man this is really strange you know so you say about 10 years let's talk about the point in which you decided to go sober yeah was there I always hate using this term but was there a rock bottom for you or was there like a self- acknowledgement that you just knew that things had to get better well I kind of been bouncing in and out of sobriety for a while been trying it on for a bit and then planning a relapse and then saying I'm sorry I'm going to get my [ __ ] together being sober for a couple of weeks then relapsing again relapse was just again and again and again and again and then I had a I had my daughter and she was about 6 months old and um and it was my wife's birthday there in Burmingham and I didn't go on the train after work I was supposed to finish work and get a train and were having a party in Birmingham and I didn't go I just stopped at Watford Junction when the pub next door scored drugs stayed there till you know 3:00 in the morning then ended up getting a taxi you know it was like it was just a disaster and but it was really if I'm honest no different than any other night that I'd had like it wasn't like the worst drink and drugs episode it was actually pretty tame really compared to a lot of the times that I've been you know but I missed my daughter crawling that night and um and my wife came into the room and she wasn't shouting she wasn't you know she was just so kind of like I don't know so over it you know and um and I and I kind of realized I was going to be a terrible father you know and I kind of and that hit me like such a [ __ ] ton of Brits cuz it's you know we say we we didn't want to be what we ever you know we didn't want to be that guy you know I was that [ __ ] guy you know and um and she was six months old and I was going to and if I didn't do anything about it she was going to live through that [ __ ] you know so um that then I fully surrendered to the fact that I was an alcoholic and um and I could never drink again you know I thought I thought I didn't think about the longterm thing I was like right I'm going to stop this now and I kind of did everything that everyone told me to do I followed advice I kind of um I kind of listened everything had kind of changed for me and I think it was that feeling of being a terrible dad you know cuz um I think that reminds me of my childhood and I was like you know I I promis myself Stu I wouldn't do this you know and I was going to cuz all I ever wanted was a kid you know really like when I think about everything that's happened to me in my life the only thing I ever wanted really was to be a dad you know and it was like that thought of [ __ ] that up was just like the most you know powerful stimulus for me to sort my life out and then that was 13 years ago wow but then but then you know um then about six years ago I was on tour and um I hadn't drunk for about eight years and um and someone offered me a line in uh there was a dressing room situation going on people doing coke and they just went like this with the [ __ ] and I just went oh cocaine wasn't my problem I just use it to keep me sober I wonder what it's like if I don't drink you know oh that's and I had that line and um and then it was just Off to the Races you know and um and I kind of I kind of rationalized it in my brain where I wasn't drinking you know so I was just doing coke without booze which if you've ever done is awful no we talk about dry lining a lot cuz someone was doing it on your stack and I was just like looking across in horror he was like it's fine I'm not drinking I was like bro the anxiety iess it's the worst feel it's the it's and I didn't like it that's the thing like I didn't soon I had that line I didn't I didn't do anything else at night um and um and I hated it I was like oh no I'm back in that [ __ ] cell you know like and I knew what it was and then and then but then a week later I bought some you know and then um I was out of something I knew someone was carrying I got some of him still no drink still no drink and then for four months I slowly progressed to six grams on my own every night you know but every day like no drink I had a studio in Watford at the time which I rented and I was supposed to be working on the next busted record and I was supposed to have the boys around there all the time no one ever came to that studio I just made [ __ ] music on my own doing gear you know in and and walking around the [ __ ] studio just pacing around it was just it was it was horrible and then just chewing Valium on my way home to try and get to sleep at like 4 in the morning you know so it was um it was really dark horrible [ __ ] you know and and all I knew what I was doing you know that there wasn't any you know I I knew exactly what I was [ __ ] doing yeah you know like and and it was which was even worse in a way because I I could and I felt like even more of a piece of [ __ ] which I was you know but I wasn't being a dad I wasn't being a husand I wasn't being a band member I wasn't doing anything I was just me and cocaine yeah and I guess you can't put it down to like oh this is our first album or we just had our first number one or it's a conscious decision at that point absolutely you know it was um it was it was at it was but I couldn't stop yeah you know and it was like and every day I'd say no you know and and i' and I was so organized with it like I would buy so much coke so I had a little um like a laptop bag in my studio it was just filled with [ __ ] like 12 grams at a time because I know that I wouldn't ever want to you know run out you know so I'd just be there all the time just doing gear and it was just a really [ __ ] weird relapse like it doesn't really make any sense to me and it was just um and I can't really pinpoint what why it happened you know it just um I just rationalized it my brain and thought alcohol is my problem Coco my problem bang and then I'm off to the [ __ ] races you know I guess it's that addictive personality that people talk about though I referenced it on the last podcast I saw this argument between Matthew Perry and Peter hitcham on BBC you choose to have the second drink you choose to have the third drink um and Matthew per was like I choose to have the first drink in an addict's brain that takes over and then chemically I I don't have a choice after that I'm wondering about a similar thing you say no but that first key absolutely first bag second bag is just you do I know from when I was doing quite a bit of gear like I didn't really want to be doing it but you're just like I need that to make me feel better but that's the thing that's making me feel worse you know you know it's not helping yeah absolutely and I've never like well I say that at the beginning I felt like it was like I said a super PIR in my pocket like I felt like it was giving me so much this wasn't the case in that in that time it was horrible you know but I couldn't I couldn't stop you know and um and I would and I would I I really tried like multiple times to kind of go no more and I wouldn't go to Studio that day because that's where the gear was or I wouldn't I wouldn't I would delete the [ __ ] number and I wouldn't delete the number you know like yeah I go yeah go right okay I won't delete it just in case you know in a few months or something you know but I'd call him that day you know so it was um it was a really weird thing you know it's like it's like that addict takes control and he gets the driving you know he gets the [ __ ] steering wheel and he's just in control you know and I kind of felt like I'd know I was completely powerless again you know and um and eventually I just came clean to my wife and told her what was going on do you think she' known during that time or been she knew something she no she said she had no idea she thought I was working all the time because I I literally wouldn't see her I never see her High because I would I would leave in the morning go to the studio and then stay there all day till she was in bed and then chew valum like a [ __ ] monster on the drive home high as [ __ ] driving with [ __ ] cheeran Valium to get home to hopefully have swallowed enough to go to sleep and sometimes i' just be sitting there in bed completely [ __ ] like in the worst possible State and she'd be um asleep next to me you know so it was um it's horrible man yeah that sounds pretty [ __ ] rough yeah it was dark it was horrible to be there and I know and you said something as well that um I saw where that really resonated with me is that I never really had like a big coke problem but there was a period where maybe a little bit but I was always terrified at that point of that I'd done too much and I'd done too many values and I'm like I used to go to bed think I probably won't wake up yeah and that used to [ __ ] terrify me stay there trying to stay awake being like if I go to sleep I'm going to [ __ ] die absolutely man that fear of not waking up yeah cuz I never wanted to die you know but at multiple times I thought I would you know and um I used to write my wife letters like and put it by a bed like and say I'm so sorry I've done too much you know this is not you you know that kind of [ __ ] like kind of like almost suicide notes but like an apology for dying you know like and and I'd wake up in the morning and I'd always put them just out of a eyesight so if I did wake up I could grab it you know and I'd just wake up and grab it and sometimes it' be four days and I'll remember it's [ __ ] there and [ __ ] grab it you know but um there was so many times like that you know it was um it was it was so weird and feeling like you're falling to sleep and trying to stop yourself from doing it because you think you're going to die your heart's pounding out your [ __ ] chest and just feeling terrible that's horrible place to be I'm actually getting like the yeah man and that's the thing like you know talking about it is is is it's it's strange because I I'm very aware that it's I always want to make make sure that it's not glamorizing it you it's not it's not caught like it was it was a horrible time and I hated every second of it you know and um and then but then admitting and kind of going I have a problem I need to [ __ ] stop this you know um and not having to go to a rehab and do a detox just being able to say I'm on my knees and I [ __ ] I Surrender you know like was was such a powerful thing again and then I walked into places where I was greeted with open arms you know and like and and and and and and no judgment no no nothing just like we get it you know it [ __ ] happens you know like we can we can [ __ ] look after you know and that was just the most amazing thing and I'm so thankful for those people you know so um and then it's like right what wasn't I doing yeah what wasn't I you know and I wasn't doing anything to do with recovery I wasn't looking after myself properly I wasn't looking after my mental health I wasn't doing anything I was just [ __ ] living you know and um and without those things I fall apart so now I'm really I'm really anal about things that I do on a daily basis because if I'm so scared to not do them you know course and I do have that fear of relapse you know that doesn't really and I think it's a I think I'm okay with that fear you know I'm not going to use today you know but I'm I do certain things daily which you know I meditate I do these cold water therapy I do all this kind of crazy [ __ ] which just just to be [ __ ] normal you know and but that's okay because the alternative is is is horrible you know so um so I don't mind doing them but I guess as a beauty and accountability we always talk about that and if you know you're in that place where it may not be too far away way being accountable to yourself doing those things that you know help you on that day even for me it's like getting up early having a cold shower and then going and getting a nice coffee to me that's like I'm good today absolutely start day ab absolutely that's all it is you know it's about making sure that you kind of I don't know it's looking after yourself you know and also knowing that you [ __ ] deserve it yeah you me which is a really hard thing for me because you know that kind of inner voice that says you're a piece of [ __ ] you know [ __ ] will wind its [ __ ] neck in you know um it neck out to me all the [ __ ] time you know and like so knowing that I'm actually I'm actually worthy of doing this you know and I'm worth it and it's and it's good you know it's kind of um it's kind of it's kind of what I do nice I think we should talk about some of the good [ __ ] that sobriety brings yeah man because there's F yeah I think so yeah I mean I was going to say it's just quite we have such a wide spectrum of guests on right and I think me and Jamie have pointed before that we're um we kind of stopped drinking without having to do rehab or AA I don't think we were in like perhaps the classic like addiction cycle which we quite grateful for we didn't have to do that and I think hence why we kind of you know the whole zero beer thing and you know changing the the sort of relationship with alcohol and I can categorically say I will never drink again I think you're you're on the same boat but it was it was a different way of of stopping and I think um you know your your story is very I mean your life is crazy in the way that you had this most insane amount of success whilst having the I guess addiction with alcohol and then and then the cocaine I guess thing was that six years ago you say yeah six years ago yeah six years ago and then I guess from that point in time what are the I know you're talking about the good and the benefits of it but what I'm really intrigued in is you were saying about your kind of routines and stuff you're in now I'd love to know what what that is specifically I think a lot of people will find it useful I about to calm it the [ __ ] down because yeah I can become [ __ ] addictive about that [ __ ] you know and I just like to say this is what you're saying um my life is I don't know it's real the inner voice telling me not to be egotistical but my life is [ __ ] amazing now you know like I wouldn't change it for the [ __ ] world like not like it is um like everything that I now is is due to being clean and sober you know and um and I love it and I love my life you know so like it's um it's that was horrible [ __ ] and sometimes you know like it's like it's like what doesn't kill us make us makes us stronger right you know I really feel like that I feel like I'm like I would never been able to have chat like this like even six years ago before I used again like would never have been on my radar to kind of be open and honest and vulnerable and that kind of thing but that has only B me joy you know and and kind of talking about it has only bought me positives and they um I said you ear on shame Fades when you sh it to the light I [ __ ] believe that because you know like I was so ashamed of everything and so kind of caught up in this resentment towards myself that actually relinquishing that and going you're okay you know is is really [ __ ] nice you know and it's really good and like my days are [ __ ] great and you know it's it's kind of good you know I forgot what you you were ask the daily the daily routine daily routine right so yeah I had to calm this the [ __ ] down because it became it became quite a 2hour experiment you know so um I mean I believe that you know for me you know I I I mean I learned in early recovery to send a guy three things I was grateful for in the morning you know and um and I resented him massively for it cuz I was like I don't want to [ __ ] do this this is [ __ ] this guy [ __ ] this guy this is [ __ ] lame you know like I'm don't believe in any of this [ __ ] like I'm not praying to God all this kind of stuff you know I'm just not doing it you know but um but he forced me too you know and like it was like and if he didn't he would be a bit kind of um not judgmental but and he'd be like well it's your recovery you know i' be like [ __ ] you I'm going to [ __ ] send you the [ __ ] thing you know so um so like I started sending this thing and it and it really started to have an effect on me you know cuz I think about it a bit more and go actually you know something can be something so simple you know and just three things I'm grateful for right now sometimes they can be massive things sometimes they can just be coffee you know or [ __ ] or waking up [ __ ] sober you know and these kind of things that are just like everyday things for me now but I'm really grateful for him so I think a gratitude list was something which I do every day and it's been um and it's been massive for me and it's so easy it takes like two minutes that's great um it's it's really great dude like it's been amazing and I've got a little WhatsApp group with like five different guys and we send it to each other you know and it's really [ __ ] vulnerable and kind of but it starts your day and I get their's back and I'm like BOS you know yes mate you know [ __ ] good some of them are early recovery as well and it's like and um I'm not like um I don't have any dogmatic approach like I think like what you're saying about um about not having to go to rehab and do and do AA and stuff I don't believe that's for everyone either you know I really don't I don't think that I've sent guys certain ways and it hasn't [ __ ] worked out and they try something else and it's [ __ ] worked for them you know I'm like whatever works just don't [ __ ] use you know is is great you know and like so I'm I'm open to all that and I'm really interested in them because I I love talking to people about what they what they do what they've read what works for them you know that kind of thing I find that really fascinating so um I read five pages of a of something that is uh non-fiction every day you know so I have to do that so I kind of do my gratitude list I read some non-fiction book that is kind of going to improve my life in some way I do that I meditate for 10 minutes I get in the cold bath four days a week I was doing it every day but um I just got too much so you know I do love it I do love it but I hate getting in there and like about four days a week I can make myself do that you know I'm like you know so I kind of do that and um and that's pretty much my morning oh and and I move my body in some way you know because I think movement gets me out of my head a little bit so that's always exercise for me and I kind of I work out every every day you know in some way or form can just be going for a walk or it's a big workout you know but I kind of do those things everything's on my checklist and I hit my pillow and say thank you for keeping cleaning sober today yeah I don't know who the [ __ ] I'm talking to I don't putting it out there and it's put it out there and it's kind of working you know because um you know like the kind of whole higher power thing didn't really resonate with me and I kind of really battled with that a little bit you know and I met someone in early recovery and there was a lot of things about you know because you try different things right and there's a lot of things that have the word God in them and I was like just [ __ ] that massively you know like I had a real problem with it and I was really anti it and I was just boring everybody with it you know like really really and um exactly you know so it's like um but then I met someone who was like and I was talking to him about it he goes do you know what I pray to I was like No And I don't want to [ __ ] hear you know yeah it was like it was like I pray to Ronaldo I was like which one ex I didn't ask him that you know and I was like what and he goes he goes I pray to Ronaldo because he's a power greater than myself because he can do [ __ ] which I think is humanly impossible he goes goes that's what I do he goes and I'm [ __ ] 9 years sober I was like you've been [ __ ] prayed to R now for 9 years so I was like Wicked you know so it really can be anything you know and I don't know what it is like I'm not like um I'm not a religious guy you know but I do these things daily and they seem to make a difference you know so I kind of I keep doing them and some things won't work for everybody and that's cool you know um I definitely don't have any [ __ ] like secret formula or anything you know but I do things which work and sometimes they don't and I try something else you know yeah I think that's a beautiful thing with sobriety for me and I know for you is like life has its color back in it and everything seems Technic color I think when you can have that gratitude on any level whether sometimes it's leaving a party early and getting a naughty Kebab or whether it's that evening on the sofa or it's staying out till 4:00 a.m. and achieving it like the beauty that comes in that accomplishment I think is just the best thing absolutely man like it's it's so it's so um you know especially when you first start drinking it's so easy to go [ __ ] hell this is am I going to do anything you know because I was like everything I do revolves around alcohol my whole life is everyone I know you know like everything I do like my my job everything is about boo you know and drugs I like how am I going to live and actually it's not that's just you you know and actually every like I remember going for dinner with one of my mates like really early on and um and like it was like a Tuesday night and I was like you order a Diet Coke and I was like dude you can have a beer doesn't doesn't bother me he was like dude it's a Tuesday night I was like yeah and I was like he was like I done a drink tonight and I was like what but you always had a drink he goes no you [ __ ] forced the sorts of a drink I was like oh [ __ ] so people live normal lives and don't get drunk every day you know like it was so baffling to me you know one of the scary things I found sbri and I was never like I would say awful awful but the amount of people around me that when I stopped and my best friend stopped on the same day we were kind of like the leaders without realizing it so so many other people around me didn't stop completely but were like oh I'm doing this bag or I'm piss less and I was [ __ ] wow exactly the same I was like the [ __ ] leader without realizing it cuz you'd finish gig and You' be like right back here back here invite everyone around don't worry I'll get the five bags in for everyone take away the facilitation of it even a word absolutely fa now thank you very much prise R um love it love it like yeah and everyone else's life changes yeah Bonkers it's [ __ ] crazy man it's [ __ ] crazy we talked about that from um because me and Jamie have a long-standing relationship with reading festival and we were saying that it was basically Jamie and all of his crew me and all the my crew and it used to be [ __ ] Mayhem like guest area religiously every year like and it's true and since me and you have stopped drinking everyone's just like the guest area is no like I waser Retreat I was like what the [ __ ] going on here I think definitely like single-handedly like took down that area and uh but yeah it's it's that's wild yeah I've always thought it'd be really interesting to do a sober Festival yes like to do even like one day where there's no there's no boo sold we are you I'm going to slightly announce this on the Pod exclusive we're actually launching next year um we're going to do a sober club night great we're going to try and do a weekday dance event great 7 till 12 dry we want to run it monthly we're going to get big DJs down and we want people to come and dance lose their [ __ ] heads yeah connect with people great be loose exercise yeah yeah but in a completely sober environment that sounds brilliant it can be done that sounds it can be done you know I've been to you know I go to IB for every year and I don't really want to go to nightclubs anymore if I'm honest but I've been forced to a few times when mes a DJing or something I've gone down I had a [ __ ] great time yeah you know and it's been okay you know that's the thing like I mean if I'm honest like nothing really scares me anymore like I don't really feel like I'm like they used to say I used to hear these [ __ ] say all the time like you go to The Barbers and I you're going to get your haircut you know all these kind of things and I don't go and sit in PBS yeah I'll make different circles you know but like um you know but like you hear these stuff all the time and I'm like I don't really feel like that anymore I kind of feel quite secure in myself I can go and do these things you know I don't like certain things like believe me a dinner party is the [ __ ] worst thing on Earth you know like give me a give me an arena full of people great give me a chat Like This brilliant give me eight people around a table I'd [ __ ] rather die you know so it's like it's an awful experience you know but there's apart from that I'm pretty cool with everything I never [ __ ] like them anyway I never like them anyway unless doing gear you know no that's great um I'm quite conscious at the time and we have some big questions to get through we do have some big questions to get through well the three big ones you want to go to the big three already oh it's up to you no it's up to you Tom don't I'm now [ __ ] Terri big you're the king of the big three um well it's funny our previous guest thought the big three we said at the start we're going to ask you the big three and he thought for the whole episode we were ask him his top three drugs likeing out the whole I think we should go there and then um so I think I'll take the first two sure because I need the glory man I need the tap it go so I think number one what's the single best piece of advice you could give someone who's thinking of going sober or changing their relationship with alcohol try for 30 days you know there's um there's there's some [ __ ] amazing science in this I read this book by Dr Anna lmy called the dopamine nation and it's um it's about dopamine balance within your brain and kind of like dopamines on one side of seesaw and pains on the other and when dopamine Rises pain goes down and when um but then your body always wants to get level so it kind of tries to go down but then pain comes up a little bit CU dopamine drops you that's what a hangover is that's what all these kind of things is you know but you can actually readdress those kind of neuropath halfways by unless you're physically addicted or you have traumatic thing that is related with drinking drugs you can actually readdress those situations by in 30 days you know and also like I'm like try it for 30 days is your life better you know do you um is are you feeling better you know are you performing better you know all these kind of things that you take for granted you know if they are do you want to drink again you know and you might want to go for it and then I'm like go for it dude see what happens you know and if it's a [ __ ] disaster again you might need to read address it but try it for 30 days see how you feel you know and if you can't make 30 days you might need to address it a bit more yeah you know is what I'd say perfect that's I think that was my favorite ever answer that was actually great bit of science bit ofit science not too much science you still sprinkling aside yeah um what is the single best thing about cutting alcohol and drugs from your life the single best thing um not not being [ __ ] exhausted you know like I found it so exhausting like spinning those [ __ ] plates and remembering what I'd said and lying you know and kind of like feeling that shame all the time I don't feel that you know that's so [ __ ] nice like and I didn't realize that for a while and I was like why do I feel good oh I I'm not [ __ ] secretly scared that something terrible that I've done is going to come back to [ __ ] B in the ass which it eventually will you know I don't think you really get away with anything you know but um but I I I feel yeah I feel kind of content you know in a way which is which is good you know amazing yeah that's beautiful that's really good right the big one okay I would like you to write a letter to drunk Matt oh my God mate and what you would say to him if you had the chance and if you could start it with Dear Matt um Dear Matt I know you won't [ __ ] listen um but there is life that is beyond this [ __ ] hell you know and it is beautiful and everything that you don't think is real is real you know like I you you you think that people don't really love each other you know you think it's just a madeup thing that's like Neverland but actually that's real and you can feel that [ __ ] if you want to I love I love it no mate it's beautiful it's beautiful it's always nice and reflective that we've had some quite funny some people have been like don't stick your finger up your ass and sniff it yeah some some have made us cry so that was yeah that was great but man thank you so much for coming on M thanks guys I love it appreciate it and what you're doing as well like on the men for those that haven't checked out shid and also we shouldn't mention that you're doing member I am doing movember I apologize for the mustache just a little I think it's looking great a little little it's looking good it's looking okay I can get a week or so so you came you came on the right time right time yeah yeah my wife is just like my God this is going to get so embarrassing I'm like yep cuz the the other day you suggested was right at the end of the month the what so the day my God I forgot about it I we did a shoot for it with um with ranking it was [ __ ] amazing we did a shoot for it and we launched movember like and they were like you going to do it and we all said yes and the other boys just [ __ ] blew us out you know so I was the only one who [ __ ] did it so what you mean we're not all doing it saved it now you know so uh so here we go you know but now like Jamie said yeah thank you for for coming on and um yeah thank you for the work you're doing in the space and man thanks man I really appreciate it and you too man this is [ __ ] great you know the more people talking about this the better you know cuz it isn't misery you know sorry if I got a bit dark at times but um but that's my story you know but but it's not everyone's story and also there is such so much to [ __ ] gain from this you know that it's like I I feel like we need to talk about it more and especially men you know we're kind of so bad at talking about [ __ ] you know and I'm bad at it sometimes too you know like but um I think it's so important to keep talking about these things I agree amazing we actually before I forget we've got one last thing to do which is a quick fire five questions if you don't mind okay so quick fire so um I'll let you I'm not very good at being quick they were designed to be um right so quickfire five okay so favorite soft drink on a night out D Coke favorite sober celebrity um Annie Hopkins best sober date destination um best sober date destination Thailand I had an amazing time my wife there amazing best sober book or literature um at the moment dopamine Nation check out cool and finally when time is short exercise or meditation depends how short um I'm I'm a [ __ ] about meditation we'll go with that yeah boom thank you very much great thank you thanks guys