Forty Steps To Liberation Book launch & Interview Of Sri Kathirasan K

[Music] namaste welcome to the fifth edition of the global Festival of Oneness organized by Inda Center for Moka studies we will my name is Anuradha and I'm the host for today evening let me start with the prayer sad [Music] Samar in today's weekend session we are going to launch kesan K's book 40 steps to Liberation a commentary on ADI Shankar's sadana panchakam and key verses of the principal opitions the book is published by Anil press and is available on PGA India and Amazon India before we get to the launch let me introduce today's uh guests we're very pleased to have with us nagaraj paturi G Dr nagaraj paturi Dean senior director and chief curator of Inda Dr paturi is seriously committed to the transmission of Vic Sciences to the present generation Dr paturi is a distinguished Professor curriculum designer executive committee member Board of studies MIT School of Vic Sciences member Board of studies kavula Guru kalidasa University and rasham School of Public leadership he's also the editor-in chief of International journals of studies in public leadership and is a member of The Advisory Council of V viyana sha Samana he has over 50 Publications and 60 conference papers to his gred welcome Dr nagaraj our next guest is uh Nan Shar G and Nan G is the director and chief curator of Inda Center for Moka studies formerly called ad Academy and he he is also dedicated to the dissemination of AD vedanta he has authored six books on various aspects of Hindu culture and practice his first book musings on Hinduism provided an overview of various aspects of Hindu philosophy and Society his most popular book is uh mensturation across cultures a historical perspective which exams mensturation Notions and practices in different cultures his upcoming book is a comment on the opening verses of the manusmriti he teaches courses on Hinduism for Inda and he has been leading the Festival of Oneness for some years now welcome Nan G and finally we have the author himself Dr Kaden K who had his Tage with Swami sat prakashananda Saraswati who is the disciple of Puja Swami dayananda sarasti he studied the subject of AD vedanta under his Guru for several years before beginning to teach this knowledge to Serious Seekers he's also the author of the ad vanta of Shiva samhita and has several books on secular mindfulness he holds a PhD in yoga philosophy and meditation and has an MBA Ken is also the founder of two successful companies and has dedicated over 25 years to impactful community service he has been instrumental in training multiple batches of Hinduism teachers and counselors in Singapore additionally he showcases his musical talents as a member of the vedanta inspired extreme metal band rudra he was born in Singapore and he has been living there all his life welcome kesan so we will now move on to the main event of the year day which is the launch of the book so I requ request all the guests to please uh show the book and um we can come on the gallery mode so that we can all show display the book can I put on the gallery yes it is already on gallery mode okay so here is the book 40 steps to Liberation a commentary on ADI Shankar's sadh panchakam by Kad K okay so um you all seen the book and I now request Dr paturi to say a few words about the book and the author patrii Namaste uh very glad to have back kaanji we had him uh during our seminar on Vic mindfulness which we organized at uh ignca Delhi and uh in fact we started our conferences seminars and symposiums with that event only and as a medic Vic mindfulness coach I knew him at that time uh and then itself I realized that he was uh very deep into the Hat yoga ad relation studies uh rigorously and uh gradually I understood more about him and now this book uh is on ad vanta uh in which he comes out as the shisha of sat prakashanand the sarasti of Malaysia and uh the book throughout talks about the requirement of a uh proper Guru uh at every step the author keeps telling you that this just as many uh medicine uh pamphlets have this this book is not substitute for a medicine and all that he keeps on saying that this book is not a substitute for a guru uh please have your own Guru at every step and uh this book is in fact uh uh not two books it's not a single book uh one of the books inside the uh volume is about sadh pakam and the comment com translation and commentary on sad panchakam a very small work by adish shankara uh by kaas Sanji himself and the remaining part of the book which is actually called appendix is a second book I should say uh a book of excerpts from Main upanishads uh and sadh panchakam itself has been for people like me to adant toage uh this was from the childhood it was always ringing ringing from the elders all the lines in the it is a shardul vik meter that is [Music] used and most of the long endings here they end in th which is uh the verb for made be done the meaning is made be done made be done may this be done may this be done and so on and so forth and it begins with that and uh an elderly woman in my childhood used to uh just barge into my house and start these lines uh this ised to go on and we used to take it by heart from such Elders uh so that very small work five versus have 40 uh actions action suggestions instructions and this book divides it into uh three parts from 1 to two into the first part the prti Dharma and from there up to the 11 3 to 11 it comes under karma yoga and from 12 to remaining it comes under narma you can see that ntia part is the longest of all and uh this classification is in genuity of Ki only this is actually that is not done by the original sad panchakam shlokas uh so that beautiful way of classification and inside the commentary if you see most of the uh Concepts the titles also come from Modern lingo uh lingo that is catchy for the Contemporary generation uh the it is uh so it's that way it is very different from the traditional Bashas so KRA Sanji as a person who can connect well with the Contemporary generation has brought the sad panakam to the catching level of the people he says that it is meant for mumukshu a Liberation Seeker uh but one of the uh opinion givers uh S mini has said that it is useful not only for muku it is also for jasus uh so even jasus May read this and jasu after reading can become a mumukshu and after becoming a mumukshu they can again read the book uh as a muku so I unlike kaas I recommend this book to jasus also uh the market expands and the uh digus can then become muku and uh then they will become the target audience as targeted by the author and his recommendation is to seek a guru while keeping the book in hand go in search of a guru thank you thank you so much Dr P for saying these beautiful words about the book I would now request nitin G to say something about the book and the author thank you anur g uh this uh the sadana panakam itself is a very beautiful compos I of AD Shankar aara and uh the present Edition is a very comprehensive conscise very easily explained very uh logically and systematically presented Exposition on this wonderful text I remember my first uh encounter with the text of s panakam happened almost a decade back I think when I was searching for a text searching searching for a writing of Shankar aara bhagat on something which is practical his teachings which are practical mean there is one is the the Basham and other things which gives conceptual Clarity but once you have sufficient exposure the next question is where should I go what should I do so that is the more uh more important relevant question for aak particularly but for any person because that is more personalized question that what should I do now knowing that there is Moka is one thing but what should I do to proceed it so when I was doing this research I came across this sad which starts with v forgot that exact that you should start by the of the V and the kushana of what the V tells so this is a very very practical instruction and it was very appealing to me and uh so when you approached uh I am very happy to be one of the earlier readers of this book even before its publication and uh when you approached me with you know request to read the book and uh give a my feedback I was very happy firstly because I have been great admir of Ki after reading his earlier book of Shiva Sam another excellent book something that I have uh suggested for many many people I know that to read that book because uh it is it is another wonderful uh commentary on shivas samita popularly known for hat yoga so I I was sure that this book would be do would be very well and it was not at all disappointing in fact it was very very encouraging and I really loved reading the book as um nagaji rightly pointed out all the key practices of the sadana panchakam 40 practices that the Shankar aara bhagat has presented have been elaborated in a very comprehensive uh but also concise and in a very easy to understand manner so this is I think one of the very important features of this commentary that uh it is it has vidth it has depth and it is also easy to read sometimes we see that uh some authors there is great width but there is no depth but there is great depth there is no width or sometimes both are there but it is completely sometimes very difficult to comprehend for a normal author so as I was mention mentioning this a while before this is a kind of a semi-academic work that is what I call because it it it will be appealing to both academic audience it will be appealing to very common uh Enthusiast it will be appealing to the muku and the jasus so it is a very very comprehensive book in the sense that it is appealing to all the kind of audience and I must say that personally the style adopted reminds me kind of s madhusudan SAR style in gika has commentary on the bhagat Gita and so particularly the sense it reminded me is that uh kadan brings him perspective from all the you know across the Hindu textual landscape not just limited to this verse by verse just an explanation he brings in lot of perspective and he defines all the key ideas all the key definitions and in a very simple manner so this was again another appealing T to me and what was also striking to me uh this nagaraj G also pointed out the book structure division into prti Dharma and NTI Dharma I think this is a very very uh very uh important way to present it I think the most best way to present this uh uh the vedantic idea because this structure provides a systematic overview of the vedantic road map to Moka not as a vant as abstract idea but vanta as a proper sadana mode what are the steps Where Do We Begin where we stand it helps to evaluate so in fact this is a structure I have adopted in my own book on isaas punish in the second part of the book to give the vision of the vanta and uh the second part of the book I think is as important as the first part the appendix which contains the key verses of principle up so I'm glad kji included this but even other throughout the book there is great importance placed on The shabda Prana and uh with relevant references everywhere and this is something I think uh a very important feature of the book and something which I uh really appreciate because many many modern books in order to Modern authors in order to make the teaching simplified they often uh you know make it anchorless so for me that is a no no so but this book is full of making the teachings anchored in the vedanta tradition in the Hindu shastra tradition so I really appreciate uh this aspect as well so I think I I would simply end my short comment I think it was not short at all with with comment that this is a very handy volume a must read volume for all for the mumuk shoes for the jig nasus for even the for somebody who has no idea about vant also they may they may need one or two readings that is fine I think I think the even the the second appendix with all the key verses from upanishad they also act in a way to provide a overview and an introduction Gateway into the world of upanishads the landscape of finishers so this is a book for all and and I I seriously recommend it and I thank K Sanji for writing this book thank thank you so much ntin G for supporting the book at the very initial stage and now giving it a platform by explain to all the readers what it comprises of thank you so much so after this uh we will now go back to the author uh himself and ask him about his journey as a student of AD vanta and about about the book itself uh welcome kades G uh Namaste my first question to you is of course congratulations on the book and it seems to have uh won a lot of hearts with the readers the first question that as I asked wanted to ask you is please tell us something about your journey as a v student and teacher uh thank you for the question before I answer the question i' would like to thank uh nitin G and Dr nagara G for their very kind words um it's really very um very humbling just listening to your your um understanding and appreciation for the work um I really thank you wholeheartedly for that now uh responding to the question Anu so my you see we I don't believe that we encounter philosophy we find some meaning in a philosophy so I I mean to call AD vant philosophy is also a limitation in itself to be honest so I did not encounter ADV vanta to to and then take it on as a philosophy but rather I was trying to look for an answer to Life's questions I was I had a lot of existential questions that what is the purpose of life why am I doing this why am I doing these prayers why am I engaged in rituals all of these questions come up being born in a a viika family or a Hindu family so then the question come came up a little later in my early 20s about what is the purpose of life Etc and that led me uh to to the quest of understanding different uh you know um spiritual teachings Etc and what really um resonated with me or connected with my disposition and personality was the teaching of AD vedanta those of you are not familiar with the term ad means non-dualism vedanta means the teaching from the upanishad so it is non-dualistic teachings from the upas that's what ad vedanta is then I encountered ad vanta which satisfied um Me by answering very very critical questions and this was in 1994 95 and after that I learned from my teacher um Swami sat prakashanand sarasti G I learned with him for several years learning this um wisdom which comes from upan and through the very important teacher shankara who is the author of sad panakam this particular text that we are talking about today and after learning then I started to teach this as well because I realized teaching this is also learning as I taught I understood the text better as I talk about it as I share as I analyze I learned learn more so I realized that teaching also had a very great value but I never saw myself as a teacher because I'm I consider myself a lifelong student of uh this particular topic and I only become a teacher when someone asks a question and after answering the question I let go of the head of the teacher I don't see myself as a teacher at all though I taught people who came to me with questions um but apart from that I realized that when I learned this from my teacher it impact Ed my whole worldview now that's a very important point I need to mention because it changed everything it was a transformation and it continues to transform that's the beauty of uh of this particular um you know what I call wisdom it continues to transform it continues to impact the way I see the world I see myself Etc but primarily it's all about the self that's the that is the subject matter of um ad vant and that impact uh has been felt by me in my professional life personal life my my teaching as well as my artistic Pursuits it has pervaded every part of my life so much so that I feel like I'm just doing one thing as what uh you know the ADV teaching itself says we are just one being playing multiple roles and that's exactly how I see myself and my relationship with the world so this is basically the response to your question thank you uh the SE next question that I want to ask is about the book itself this book is supposed to be a collection of your lecture series on sadhan panchakam how did you decide to teach this text to somebody who must have come and asked you to teach you something or asked you with a question what made you choose this text uh interestingly this were the first text I learned from my teacher so my teacher taught taught this as the first text for me to understand and appreciate uh the know the knowledge of the self and later much later when a group of people approached me to wanting to learn with I thought which text would be a good one so I chose this text but I had a reason for choosing this text and the first thing that I would like to uh site is that this particular text has a linear pedagogy now what I'm linear means it's like successive pedagogy you do one particular action or a particular spiritual pce which is called s right I use the word sad it means spiritual practice one sad and then you move to the next sad and then next so it's successive and linear so I believe that as a human being one of the ways that we learn effectively is when we have a structure when it is organized so sad panchakam teachings are organized in a way that it is linear so it tells you start with one and then by the time you end at 40 you are liberated you are free you know existential Freedom which is called Moka or MTI so that's one reason why I chose the text the second uh reason I chose this text was you see in the vedantic tradition um there is a very important method of knowing the self many of you may already know this but I'm going to say it which is sh Manas shra means listening to the teachings manana means analyzing all right uh the teaching in nasana is assimilating embodying the teachings so these are the three steps that someone takes to know and become liberated so this particular text kind of brought a lot of light into the third stage which is called nyas which is embodying the knowledge a lot of times even in the works of in the commentarial works of adish shankara you don't find a very exhaustive what I call presentation of nasana which is embodiment it does not come out but in this text half of the sadhanas are actually focusing on nasana that was the beauty so therefore it is very helpful for any Seeker who wants to really embody this knowledge so therefore there's a second reason that I decide to choose this particular text then the third reason the third reason is that there is uh a lot of times when when people you know during the early days in the '90s when I was you know wanting to know this knowledge wanting to find answers I would go to people I meet uh Swami ji who visited Singapore I would talk to other people in satsanga and I would always ask them you how to attain this freedom and they always tell me find a guru right that's the that's a very common response that you would still hear but the very interesting thing is in the sadana panchakam the searching for a guru is the 13th sad is not the first sad so when you approach someone someone who tell you look for a guru that which appears like that's the first sad to to undertake but if you look at the text it is the 13th sad which is satanam Shankar says which basically means may you seek a teacher to know the truth um and and this is a very very interesting um Point why because this tells us that before you even seek a teacher you should have accomplished the prior 12 sadanas can you see that now this emphasis on Preparation that means before you even approach a teacher the question whether am I ready to even approach am I ready to even seek am I ready my is the is my mind ready to even to listen to this knowledge so this text answers the question so if anyone is very to know what is it that I need to do even before I seek a guru or before I seek an achara sad panakam gives you 12 sadhanas that you can uh that you could undertake before you actually approach a teacher and that's the last reason why I decided to teach this text yeah would this text be considered a like to Seekers study this text at the beginning of their vanta Journey or is it like an advanced text how would you CL classify a book like this a text like this you know it's very uh I know people say that this a very basic text this is a very Advanced text you when sometimes I also use this lingo but I think whether a text is basic or Advanced depends on how how advanced a Seeker we are because we looking for answers for questions and every text May answer that question in a different way right uh so that is one like for example when I first studied this text in late 1990s I saw I saw it in a particular way when I started to teach this text much later I saw more and I when I started to edit this know manuscript I saw more and 10 years later maybe I will see more you know when I say when I say I see more I want to really qualify that when I say I see more it just deepens that's the difference it is not that we see more things there's nothing more than then Brahman is the self is the Atma there's nothing more actually but just that that particular appreciation of the subject of the self being Brahman or Atma being Brahman it just deepens and it gets you know you can tend to embody in very many different ways as you live you know in in as in in our lives so I would say that sadan PanAm would be basic if you think that it is basic uh it can become very Advanced if you really go through you know each of the sadanas and dig deeper and deeper and deeper it can also become a very deep text so it all depends on the lenses through which and what what our prior knowledge that actually allows us to see and acknowledge whether text is basic or or Advanced uh so this basic and advanced uh question is actually a scholarly question this basic and advanc uh uh categorization have no value for the Seeker to be honest for the Seeker we only want answers to the questions that's all we want you see when I'm thirsty I only want water it's the scientist who analyze what is the nature of the water what is the molecular molecular structure and all of that that's the job of the scientist The Scholar but for the one who is thirsty he or she just wants to drink water so this basic Advanced categorization yes may appeal to scholarship but for a Seeker it has no value at all as long as I find answers to my questions you had an interesting point you said that the text actually uh asks the Seeker to seek a guru only the 13th sadhana but does our modern lifestyle allow us to practice the remaining previous 12 practices I mean do we have enough bandwidth to know them how does one how does a Seeker get to know these no that's the purpose of the comment that's the reason why I decided to you know engage in getting this book you know written and published because it's possible and the other thing is Anu you see we need to acknowledge a very important point which is this the vedanta text were never written for the Common Man it was almost all the even shankara when he writes he's writing for a sasi those of you who don't know what the sasi means it refers to a monk or a renunciate so that was the target audience that he that is the competent Seeker in the eyes of the vedantic tradition the traditional perspect the traditional position is vanta Texs are for the sasis the monks right renunciates so the to to answer that question would then mean that the way the landscape of contemporary Seekers of uh vanta has radically changed in the last 120 30 years now I don't know how many people are in the webinar right now but I believe 99% of you are not sasis okay I think I can make that inference are not syasi none of you here probably a monk or a renunciate I would say that so you can see the landscape of the sadakas the landscape of the experence have changed the texts have not changed you see the text was still always written for the syasi so when a text is now commented on for the common man it is the teacher carries a very unique burden isn't it the teacher then has to contextualize the teaching without losing its Integrity that means the traditional approach to knowing the self cannot be compromised it cannot be compromised there is only one way let's be honest it may sound like I'm very rigid but that is that is it that the tradition is only one way through knowledge you know the self but the way and house uh for the Contemporary person has to be not contextualized now why am I saying this let me give an example you see when I learned with my teacher I had other uh you know friends and fellow Seekers who are sitting with me you see the teacher is teaching the text in the maybe one and a half hours or two hours we're listening to the teaching and after the class is over uh the the the people who attend that particular session will go back one will go back the spouse is angry one goes back the child is hungry the other one goes back and realize that there is a lot of work to be done at home because they have to do overtime you see when these people learn this knowledge and when they after the end of the class they face challenges in their lives which is very different from the sasi the SAS is a different type of challenge perhaps if there is if at all there are challenges for a sasi it's different but for the Common Man the challenges are different you may have a spouse parents siblings children uh you know colleagues bosses staff Etc employees so you can see the challenges are coming from different directions these challenges are not directly addressed by the text you see the point now so because these texts were meant for someone who's already ripe like in the form of a sasi who's ready to take this knowledge and completely pay attention to the teaching without any distraction but that's not the case with I think most of the people who are attending this session today I don't I believe most of you are not SES so after this session you're going back to your real life which could be so many other challenges so now the teaching has to be presented in a way that you meet you use these challenges as part of the sad it's a very important critical burden that the teacher carries so therefore it is very we need to acknowledge this if we don't address this that become it creates an kind of dukka now what is this duka duka means suffering all right or distress you see what happens is we will then contemp we will compartmentalize the seeking of the knowledge of the self as one Pursuit and anything outside it as something other than this Pursuit so what happens is we will be you know we we will learn all the virtues and values in the class and what the text says when we go back to our life we realize that we cannot practice it we become angry we become frustrated we scold people we hurt people we we through our thought word and deeds we do all the things that create a lot of a lot of harm to people all of that would happen that's why you see people compartmentalized it so I have when I attend the vant class I'm this self but outside the class I'm someone else so we then what happens is what we see as a very important need is to integrate the to without losing the Integrity of the tradition of the method of teaching now when that happens that's when people would find that their real uh what I call practice ground for the sadana is from the time you wake up till the time you go to bed so the sadanas are not something that you do you know 13 13 30 minutes of prayer Puja 30 minutes of meditation no it completely pervades and permeates your whole life your waking life so this is a very very important thing that we need to recognize which is the the landscape of sadakas have changed radically and tremendously so therefore we as we this only happened in the last 120 years at least from if you look at it because and and one of the and we also we should be very lucky that that this knowledge has come out of the forest and we need to of course credit Swami Vivekananda for this because he was one of the very important figures who brought this out of the forest and brought it to the mainstream so people who are suffering or people who are in distress in contemporary life in Modern Life can also gain have access to this knowledge but yet the teaching structure the teaching methodology have to also be aligned to what the needs are for this particular audience I hope I came out clear yeah yes that was that was very clear in fact that brings me to the next question because the way your book is structured is that pretty much onethird of the book talks a lot about the practice practices that one needs to do to prepare one's mind and U I want to understand from you how you choose those practices what were you targeting with your Seekers you know what were you looking to fix in their minds if I can use that word when you use these practic and if you can share some of those uh practices which you insist that the students undergo now one of the things that I I spent a lot of time as you rightfully said is the relational dimension of our life you see we are not islands like uh I remember spending some time in rishik you know in the Himalayan Rangers and I met a lot of great mahatmas and you know sasis athetics in that tradition and they all lived in a cave so I even met someone who was in a cave he that's his whole life he's he's he he stays in the cave he comes out for a big sh which is to beg for food and then he goes back that was not my life my life is going I need to I need to relate with people and so what does that mean it means means that the biggest challenge we have is when we not read about the bicycle not watch someone riding the bicycle or someone who shares with you how to ride the bicycle the biggest challenge is me learning how to ride the bicycle if suppose I want to ride a bicycle so by presenting those aspects in the book what I'm trying to share is what happens when the when you're preparing for Nana preparing for knowledge how do you ensure that your mind is ready and the greatest l test is when you relate with people and you relate with yourself right like for example I come home my son comes to me and says hey Dad can you help me with my homework and I say go away I'm doing doing my work now that statement has it's very loaded it means so many thing like one particular implicit belief is my work is more important than my son's homework isn't it right can you see that so we don't bring that out right we we we don't bring that out but that is the belief in me my work is more important than my son homework so what I'm trying to um do by presenting those aspects in this book as a very unique you know it takes quite a number of pages in this book is to show you how we actually may hover beliefs behaviors that may not help us in the preparation of the mind like for example racism uh for example looking at uh vidanta as an academic Pursuit now all of these are not going to help you not help us because that means we are again compartmentalizing we're not integrating integrating the two so that's why I spent quite a deal quite a lot of energy actually trying to present uh life situations where we can use it as a way to see whether how I responding to these challenges when someone disagrees with me how do I respond you know in a meeting in an office someone disagrees with my view how do I respond what is my emotion at that point that emotional gauge can tell us so much about how the mind is ready and prepared preped for knowledge of the self orish knowledge of vanta so that's the reason why I spent a lot of energy presenting those aspects because that's what I meant this these aspects are not needed for the sasi you see the point now but these aspects are needed for the Contemporary person who living in an urban life with with with people working with people relating with people that brings me to the next question that is Moka a valid goal for people who are living in a family life or in the secular life or is it only meant for sasis as the texts have actually the vision of the text is it's only meant for sasi so is it valid for others to seek this knowledge so this I cannot use my opinion I have to appeal to the tradition here all right because it's it's it would be my own opinion if I said if I responded to this I the only license that we have for people who are not sasis to you know to that validates this Pursuit is Vidar swam via he makes a very interesting point he says that people who cannot take up Sasa actually can also seek this knowledge if they had the right discipline that means if they are disciplined in the way that we relate with the self and the world Etc can actually also seek this knowledge so to answer that question yes the tradition permits sanctions people who are not sasis to also pursue this knowledge if they are not in a position to renounce the world so that's one that's a traditional response let me give you another response that is from experience perspective which is supported by jabala upanishad now in the jabala upanishad that is a very nice line the moment that you feel dispassion that is a moment you should leave home you know it doesn't matter what stage of life you are in you can leave your home at any point in time right at that moment the disp occurs so what does that tell us the moment the desire comes up you know the desire for Moka comes up then that that desire valid your Pursuit you see the point here so this is a very important thing when that desire to want get out of this samsara samsara here means that this cycle of you know uh distress or suffering or dukka when we know that I want out of this then that moment it gets validated it is not validated because someone told you that's why you know in my life in my early years I used to bring friends to uh vidanta classes and lectures they come there some of them fell asleep in the class I remember right next to you the guy is snoring and I have to wake him up you know hey wake up wake up because he's snoring so loudly in the in the lecture some people come and attend the class and then they uh don't want to come to the next day next lecture which is right right you know the next day so what does this tell us the desire the the the the motivation uh is not there because that is this is not what they want which means in the in the technical language these are called these people are called anadar that doesn't make them any lower than the adikari I want to make that very clear it only means that they are not they are meant to follow prti Dharma which is the first two sadanas of the text the first two sadanas of the text is the Baseline for any any person who wants to follow this Dharma the first two sadanas are the Baseline so if they're not interested in attaining Moka you know Liberation not interested in no Brahman to know the self then what should they do just stick to the first two sadanas uh suppose after after doing the first two sadhanas and then um um going into karma yoga and then or before Karma Yoga the desire for you know wanting to really live a spiritual life comes up then you go into karma yoga or if you think that the desire for Moka come UPS you go into the second stage which is karma yoga that third sad kicks in and then that that begins the process of mental preparation so that's how it is yeah I think one of the questions which actually some people have asked is what is the significance of the 40 practices is this just a number or is there anything in Hinduism is there any importance of the number 40 we only know Hanuman Chalisa you know that's the only Chalisa 40 we know but is there any insight there you can share there is no significance to the 40 to be honest uh it maybe you know if if shankara was still around we would have asked him why 40 uh but yeah we don't know but actually you see by although it's 40 sadanas as what nagara G has mentioned actually it's panchakam meaning five versus so it's five times um so five five versus presents 40 you getting now so it is eight eight sadanas per verse right so that's why it becomes uh uh 40 so the is I don't know why that 40 is there but one thing we know is half of them are focusing on how to embody the knowledge very very beautifully how do I assimilate this knowledge that we know so so I don't have the answer to that because we don't know but we know there are five verses and each verse gives eight sadanas so 8 * 5 gives you 40 is there a reason why that assimilation has been given so much importance what are the perils that typically sadakas face is that is the text trying to address that I I think so I think shankara is addressing that you know why because a lot of times there is this particular uh what do you call you see we need to understand what is the purpose of nasana right why is it focusing on embodiment which is nasana so the purpose of vasana is is actually stated by a very Vidar in his anuti prasha text in the I think 12th 13th century in that text he says the purpose of nasana is viita that means viita bana what is viita bana viita means opposing opposing bhavana means Tendencies so after learning this knowledge you may notice that there are very very uh there could be still tendencies that are opposing the knowledge Let me Give an example when you know the self you become a person who sees yourself you see everyone as part of that same reality Brahman okay let's say so that means when you meet the other person you meet them quite differently from the way that you would have met before this knowledge it could be there could be kindness there could be compassion there could be respect but you know what happens then you meet after after learning this knowledge and being maybe appreciating this knowledge very well and you meet someone and someone SCS you and what happens immediately anger Rises now this anger that rises after knowing the after after after being exposed to this knowledge is called an opposing tendency viita bana so this is the biggest challenge for people who learn and study vidanta because they learn one thing and then when they go home or go to office and meet people or anywhere else they realize that knowledge doesn't transform into behaviors that are conducive you see the point now so the behaviors are now opposing and why are the behaviors opposing because of past habits this habitual Tendencies stand in the way shankara talks about this in the badika upanishad he mentions that even after knowing this knowledge some that the the the person who knows this knowledge has to has to reflect he says otherwise these opposing Tendencies sometimes can can what I call um derail you at actually in in your life sometimes it may just derail you temporarily sometimes it may happen so therefore shankra mentions that in the ban that after knowing you need to recollect this knowledge and keep it which is the purpose of nasana so what can we infer here is that by focusing so much of importance half the text you know focusing on on this aspect tells us that we can actually overcome these opposing Tendencies if we have if we know what we need to do isn't it which is what nitin G was saying if I know what to do then I can oppose um you know these Tendencies so Shankar gives very beautiful you know uh what I call instructions to actually overcome this so one particular uh he he says says he says do may you not seek tasty food look at that very very simple instruction this after knowledge you know do not seek tasty food what does that mean so he says and then so why because tasty food if you seek tasty food I'm saying if tasty food comes to your table is quite different that is PR of the karma which is meant to be but if you seek if you go hunting you know for tasty food it means that I have superimpose a value onto something other than the self I some empowered which is also called adasa right is a kind of superimposition that we make so you see things like that I mean sadhanas like that are actually taught by shankara very very simple uh what I call sadanas 12 mean sorry 20 sadanas he he mentions to overcome these opposing Tendencies which is called viparita bavana there's also one which say where he says that please don't go and argue or start debating with the people what is the I mean especially I'm asking this question question because in today's social media world we are always arguing or putting across our points or debating so is that a danger for Seekers you know to get unnecessarily caught in points of yes yes he says this is the text that this is the says Buddha he says that means don't engage in argument with people with the general General people and also the intelligent people he says do not engage in that why because what Shankar is possibly getting at is that whenever we get into debates actually there is a reason for there is the implicit motive is I want to be right you see but I could be wrong so debate you see I used to be a debater in my secondary school and I and I remember debating very well I even won a price for it because it's not what I'm talking about it's how I debate it's the one that earns that earn me the price so so debators are very good at debating they're not good at content you see so when when Shankar makes this point about you know do not debate with people do not argue with people because arguments whenever we argue it shows that there is some insecurity isn't it right the need to be right the desire to be right all the time you know everyone else uh you know need to be wrong and I need to be right what does that tell us it only shows it only points out a very inadequacy and insecurity that is within us so when we be continue debating without listening and not knowing when to withdraw from a discussion we actually perpetuate the ego which is which is right you know like sures says very interestingly I remember in one text he says the last big the last challenge for a sadaka is that ahankara he says because the ahankara the ego would want to manifest in many different ways and finds its way out finds its way out to when it relates with the world and it wants to um show its presence and this transform this the the the the crevices and the gaps through which it manifests itself is insecurity right inadequacy it will come up that's why in the last stage shankra advises us don't engage in debates don't argue you know unnecessarily you see that's why V Jula there are different types of discussion is different from samada you know in the Vidant tradition they encourage samada samada means it is an an inquiry for the purpose of truth that kind of discussions are very helpful but if I'm trying to establish that I am right and you are wrong and no I want to find fault in your what you are saying that is never going to lead us into um you know it is never going to allow us to embody the knowledge that we value and we are seeking my next question is pertaining to what you have called appendix but really it's the third part of the book which is the the explanation and commentaries on the key verses of the principal opitions how did you go about choosing them and what was the purpose of including these verses in this text because sad itself seems to be a complete text but in addition to that you have also taken these verses from the so the reason why I did that is because of the um that is this particular sad which is sad sad 16 which is called now means may you listen to the words atten l so you see at the 16th sad the the text instructs the sadaka to listen to the teachings of the upanishad if that person doesn't listen the 70th sad would not work you see the point now because it's linear as I said it's linear it's successive right it's a pedagogy is successive and it's linear so at this at the 16th sad which says that you listen to the open from a teacher from a guru you listen to that so I wanted to I wanted to satisfy that Curiosity of the reader so you know maybe when you're reading this text you may you may not have encountered a teacher or may not found a teacher or you have no assess to a teacher so at least by looking at the UPS the selected verses you at least get a flavor of what the UPS are teaching so at least you can satisfy that Curiosity you know I always say this to people who want to learn don't go to bed with and ask questions unanswered you know it it it actually it stays in your head and it it doesn't help you because you have that question in your head so to satisfy that particular curiosity or the Gap I've given quite a you know many verses from the Muk the principle of punas and the appendix so that the person can now stop the stop reading the sad panakam at the 16th sad go to the appendix read all the com brief commentary it's not exhausted commentary just brief commentary no is not a itude for not learning from a teacher after reading all of that come back to the sadanam and resume the from the 17th sadana that is the purpose of including it so that the text now becomes more supportive to the reader instead of just you know writing a commentary on the 40 sadanas we've been given some additional time so we can ask you some more questions one of the questions is that as you said that the kururu plays a crucial role how does one go about finding a guru is it just that we just pray that we get a guru or do we look out for something or do we just just test whatever is there in the market and then decide that this is what is suiting me or how does this whole process work so um the traditional um uh response to this or very often heard is you don't look for the teacher let the teacher appear so when you're ready the teacher would appear so so the key point is when you are ready the teacher would appear when you are ready when you are not ready and the teacher appears that is not your teacher that is not the right teacher to be honest you end up when you're not ready and you follow Any teacher you probably like it is likely that you may be following or learning from someone who may not be the what we call as a SAT vidwan this text uses the word sat vidwan is not just a vidwan SAT vidwan all right very important you know compound here so um so the the the response to this is actually the same I would add here the same point which is we don't look for the teacher if you look for the teacher normally you are looking when you're looking you may settle for anything that is what do you call lesser than what you're expecting right after sometime you get tired you settle for any teacher and then that teacher may not answer your question and then you give up on this Pursuit so I always tell people that who are looking for teachers instead of looking for Teacher just prepare yourself just work on preparing yourself so that is why you can see be 13th sadana is uh to seek a teacher right which is which says so until the 12 sad you can continue doing it the 12 sadanas are pretty heavy to be honest it's enough for you you know uh to actually keep you occupied and I want to stress one important point there is one sad which is number nine the N sad which says means may you resort to satsa satsanga means it's basically a gathering of like-minded people who are talking about the same topic which is the whole idea about sat which is truth or any discipline of knowledge so that is a very important component in my opinion and I benefited a lot the the discussion the open open discussion with like-minded people can be very very helpful in trying to understand what is available what is available in the spiritual you know field in of the times and also understand who the teachers are what did this teacher say are they you know teaching according to the tradition you see we get to actually overcome a very big obstacle you know which we never think about whether the teacher is a good teacher I I don't believe there's a good teacher I only I only know effective teachers is either teacher effective or ineffective good bad is very subjective you know because you know I don't like the way he walks bad teacher will automatically conclude but a good teacher you know technically means an Effective Teacher is either teacher effective or ineffective so effective teachers to understand you must have had some prior discussions and deliberation so that's why satsanga is very powerful you know attending satsanga attending lectures hanging out with people who have the similar goal which is you know Moka or even you know uh shastra vichara meaning uh inquiring into the scriptures text openes such uh what I call engagements can be very very very helpful so before even seeking a teacher I would say look at these 12 sadanas and start you know engaging yourself yourself in these 12 sadanas then you think about the teacher you know then um yeah you don't have to then worry says you know it's very very uh lucky to actually be to to get the contact to come into contact with the teacher that luckiness or this Rarity only means one thing that you have gained a lot of Merit and how do you gain this Merit doing all the 12 sadanas leads you to generate this Merit to meet this teacher one of the questions is which you yourself pointed out you said that when you read the book studied the text at a later stage you had other insights so one of the questions that the participant has asked is when you write books on vanta how does it transform you what are the new kind of insights you see can you share that experience with the viewers yeah writing uh uh any commentary on any text um is almost like Nas to be honest because you are dwelling on that knowledge it's like teaching as I said when I teach a text it's like nasana for me you know it's like because I am actually soaking myself in that knowledge and I need to write it from that perspective and I am particularly of I am particularly not a fan of scholarly writing which means that I I I subscribe to the point that there are two doors that need to be opened when when studying vanta text the first door that need to be open is the opening the door to the text because the text is the means opening the door to the text and this is where the Shas those of you who know what this term means uh you would understand which basically a shria who knows the traditional method so the Shas are very good at this they open the door to the text but there is a second door that needs to be open the second door that needs to be open is to open the door after you open the door to the text you open a second door to the self which is to to teach the text so that you know the self not teach the text for you to understand the text then it remains as a concept right like you know that's why I've met some professors from universities who are great brilliant Scholars of shankaras commentaries of upanishads and to just so that you know they do not subscribe to it as as a faith subscription they do not practice any of the teachings but they can share with me which verses can be found where and they can tell me exactly what these verses means Etc but they have not understood they are not uh what I call simulated the knowledge can you see that so some people are very good at opening the door to the text but opening the second door which is using the text to let you see the self now that is a very important thing especially for me so um when when I start to when I write or when I talk I'm interested in that second door as well not just the first door first door is important and I think there are many people who do the first door very very well I've seen so many teachers right now in you know in the YouTube who do a great job so many great Shas who do a fantastic job I look up to them but my interest is the second door it's very important that you open the first door and we also enable the possibility of opening the second door using the text like a mirror like a mirror to show you who you are and that's where I that's the kind of writing that I engage in I want to show the anyone you know what is what is this text for uh the next question is how do Seekers figure out that they are making progress they are on the right path or is it again up left up to the guru to guide them you see this question is if the person is a sasi the guru can guide because every day you are you are anasi you are with the teacher the teacher every day morning sees your face goes to bed also looking at your face after looking at your face he can give you all the feedback in the modern world like today you come once a week class for 1 hour or two hours the rest of the time you are doing your stuff on your own how do you know you're making progress how does a teacher know that you're making progress how do you know that you're making progress because you could be biased isn't it right you can even argue yourself be very good the mind can really make the TKA you know Shankar says you know you know the the taras the Nikas means the logicians they very good because you know why they can logic they can logically analyze in any way they want and our mind is very good at that we'll do something wrong and justify it you know so how do we know that that is why it is very important for us to always be very objective when we think about our own progress and how do we know shastra is the mirror when we don't have access to the guru then we need to ensure that we are making progress by using the shastra as a gauge like for example the asuri STI in the Gita which talks about demonic qualities you know in the bhagat Gita now that kind of chapters can be very helpful in case we get derailed and then you know we see this kind of you know uh what I call behaviors manifesting then I know actually I've been derailed then look at the D which is the qualities of dasas if you if you manifest those qualities of the dasas which is also in the bhagabat Gita then we know that we are heading the right direction so in the in this answer is for the person people like us maybe you are not sasis who have access do not have 24-hour access to a teacher we use the shastra as a guide can you share with us what are you planning to write next or what are you currently writing in terms of AD vanta so the next book that I I'm currently working on is to to really see in the in the I use the word spiritual Market because I'm very conscious and deliberately using this word because today spirituality also can be seen as a market because everyone could be selling something everyone could be presenting something and we are like buyers you know we buy this so and many people use the word Moka very Loosely MTI Moka you know Nirvana Kia Etc you know all of these words are synonyms for Moka or liberation and they use it very Loosely but what does it mean so one person says you know you you you sing what do you call bons and then you can get MTI another person may say you meditate and then you can get MTI is that the case Shankar says no all of this cannot lead you to Muka he very emphatic and very clear so how can we understand that properly in a way not in a dogmatic way not not not in a way that it is an it is because someone says it a teacher says it but rather in a very isn't outweigh so I'm my next book is about that how do we understand what is Moka and how do you attain it in the whole tradition that has been organized by adish Shankar I use the word organized because he was not the one who started this right it goes back say sadaram it goes back to back to the the Pura itself ishwar so Shankar has organized it for us so I the next book is to bring that you know to look at all of shankara's works and bring uh to to the Forefront in a very concise and a very organized way what is Moka and how can you attain it in that sense in a in a Trad in what the tradition says that's my next book that I'm working on you mentioned that you know writing these commentaries is also a form of Midas and for I mean I'm asking this for people who may be interested in writing on this subject what would you advise them I mean if somebody's interested in writing about ad vanta what would you advise them I I would not even venture to advise anything I don't think I'm in a position to advise anyone you know any author how to write you know what to write and you know what you should not do what you should do I don't think so I'm also learning you know writing and every time I write it gets better every time I think something new comes so I don't think I'm in a position to advice and anyway I'm not a I'm not a fan of giving advice to start with uh so I have no advice to anyone right uh that's the only thing I would say you know if the only thing that requires even before you know before any kind of writing is not the subject the subject of the book is this subject this subject this first person I a this subject is very important I think that is the most important subject even before embarking on any other book by no means this is an advice is my perspective here knowledge is the main for means to attain Liberation but in recent times we have have has the tradition underplayed the value of prayer underplayed the value of meditation in the in the U attainment of this knowledge or is are those not required really no all of that are required and and of course this response from me is coming from my limited exposure because it's impossible for me to be exposed to everything that's happening in the world all right I get to know more things because of internet and YouTube and all of that uh but in from my limited experience I realize medit Med itation has been underplayed there was a time meditation was overplayed all right uh uh because um people thought that to attain Moka you need to meditate so therefore that was really overplayed but actually according to the upanishad and adish Shankar meditation is not the means to Moka so there came at a point where a pivot you know it came where we completely got the opportunity to look at what is this knowledge which has got nothing to do with meditation and even you know prayers which is called Dharma right or viddi Etc VIIs so in that process maybe we had downplayed the value of meditation you know uh so that people can direct the attention to what the up and you know the vant tradition has been saying so uh in the process we could have possibly downplay it but I think it's important that we understand that in like in the in the in the sad cha you know in the four-fold qualifications which is presented in vanta the third one which is called shakka STI which is a sixfold accomplishments which I've also written in the sad panchakam book as well quite elaborately you see most of the shakka STI accomplishments can be easily accomplished through meditation shama dama uparti Tia Etc all of that can be easily accomplished if someone is a meditator you know in whatever form of meditation today you know that is a very famous form of um meditation called mindfulness which Al I'm also in that industry as well so the mindfulness uh that which is taught in the bhagat Gita and the upha traditions and even in the Mahabharata especially s these practices can be very very helpful to cultivate the shakka not all the six but especially five of them can be very very helpful so that has been perhaps down downplay you know there is a lot of ishwara what I call pujan which is very much there and is's a lot of Nana but meditation somehow has taken a deep not that it's vanished taken a deep in the vanta tradition I'm only talking vant tradition and again I'm qualifying from my limited exposure this is what I'm noticing yeah I'm glad you mentioned mindfulness because I was going to ask you what is the connection is there any link between AD vanta and mindfulness uh are the practices do they converge what is it because we've been we always thought of mindfulness as like a Buddhist practice or some secular practice you know so the the word mindfulness has to be understood properly because it's a modern word that has been used invented by someone you know about 200 years ago uh for a particular type of practice so mindfulness exists in the Buddhist tradition Etc it exists in all religious Traditions to be honest it also exists in the Hindu tradition as well you can find it in the Bhagavad Gita the term aaata comes uh in the you see a the term all of these terms refer to mindfulness which which is a kind of alertness of vigilance that that that that that that is cultivated in the person's being so yes that is what is called mindfulness but in the modern society today what we are seeing is actually a different type of mindfulness called secular mindfulness now secular mindfulness is not for the purpose of Moka let's be very clear secular mindfulness is for the purpose of Wellness you know it helps people with depression helps people with anxiety also helps people to discover more meaning and purpose so it is a very secular Loa approach you know to meditation but the spiritual forms of mindfulness if if you if we do it if we perform it practice it consciously can be very helpful in the purification in the preparation phase for mukan thank you so much any closing remarks you would like to make on this topic or the book or anything that you would like to share with your readers um no nothing of that sort but I'm I'm think that um um you know you know we all read something because we want answers you know so when we have when when if the if the if the question happens to be how can I follow uh conscious and deliberate you know set of instructions you know uh so that I can attain Liberation or at least appreciate it then of course sad panakam is a very good start uh in my in my view you can consider you know reading the sad Pancham there are also perhaps other commentaries available I'm not going to say my commentary is the best okay so uh the text sad panakam is a very good text to start with so you can read uh other commentaries Etc but is certainly s is a good place to start if anybody wants to contact you with regard to either knowing about the subject or about the book is there is there any website they can reach out to you out or email is that something you would like to share yeah you can just Google my name you may find some of the profess spaces that I'm part of and that is you can find any space there I'm also on LinkedIn right you can just drop me a mail drop me a note I may not respond immediately but I will certainly respond yeah do you hold any classes uh online classes or physical classes in Singapore for sequel or is no not really not really I'm not a fan I I'm reducing group classes uh not that I I'm I'm adverse averse to it but I I I focus on people like I focus on oneon-one you know conversations rather like I said I don't see myself as a teacher I see myself as just walking with someone who wants to know this knowledge so I'll walk with people that who who also find me and there is also there's a ni you know is nii we don't look for people people sometimes come into our lives and they want to learn and sometimes it's through a conversation that's how I I have been supporting people I don't want to presume that I'm teaching anyone in that sense yeah thank you so much k for sharing your views uh many readers have asked viewers have asked where they can find this book it's available on PGA India which is in India and on Amazon India you can buy both on both these platforms you can buy the book and thank you so much viewers for listening in many link to the book in the chat box years yeah sorry the book I'll just again highlight the book can sh the link can you share the link to the book in the chat box oh link okay yeah you can share Amazon link or AA India Link in the chat box let me just reply here answer live okay no no you just you just share it in the chat box please it will go to all the viewers yeah okay so they good okay we have uh many more sessions coming up with part of the global Festival of Oneness tomorrow morning at 7 amm India time we have uh Dr K maheswar and okay the flyer yes uh Dr nurri will be talking to us about birth and death as annunciated in vidanta this is a talk in Sanskrit so please do uh tune in and hear the words of wisdom I'll conclude the session with a closing prayers [Music] [Music] Shanty Shanty shanty