Kouri Richins Preliminary Hearing - Day 1 Part 3

gabler is that right that's right and Todd gabler is a private investigator also not law enforcement at this time I don't think he's ever been law enforcement but that's true um and how did you know Mr gabler I have we've been colleagues for 30 years or so and by colleagues do you share office space do you work together on cases just randomly or what do you mean by colleagues no we're um I have worked on the same case that he has worked on I would not say we've ever worked on cases together okay and he approached you and asked if you would be interested in working for Eric Rich's family who was uh dealing with trust issues right the with the trust the Eric Rich's living trust yes who's the trustee of the Eric richens living trust Katie Rich spon his sister and so would she have been the individual basically responsible for paying you as the trustee yes and did you meet with her I don't know that I ever met with her we had phone conversations okay and did you have a contract of employment with her or with the trust an engagement letter yes and what were they what did they agree to pay you to help them um my hourly rate and um yeah how much was that 325 an hour and I believe you said you worked for them up until the County Attorney approached you is that right that's right so how long a period of time did you work solely for the trust um I I don't remember when I first started working for them I don't I in the summer it was in the summer I believe of 22 so a few months after Mr richens had passed something like that I I can get that exact date for you um something like that and then toward the the fall of that year they engaged in some litigation and I was pretty much out of the picture at that point so maybe five or six months you think you worked for them probably four or five yeah and do you remember a total how much they paid you during the time you were employed by them I think it was about $9,000 and during that time did they provide you with records to analyze I did have some records yes right and so these are being produced to you by Eric Ron's family that's right and that would include these life insurance documents I I did have some um whether or not there're this I I honestly don't remember if it includes this one I don't think it did there were several New York Life Insurance Poli policies that I reviewed um do you know how they obtained those those records before they gave them to you are you aware you may may or not noty I I don't know what other records did the richens family give you to analyze um I had some of the CN masonry bank account records um I had some tax returns um I know I had some other things I had some odds and ends so nothing um and and I I do not know how they obtain and um then how did you how did it come about that you switched from working from Eric's family to the prosecution team in this case well in my view they are separate entities separate cases separate engagements and I did not feel like I could work on both and I at that time when when I was engaged by Sumit County I had not had any contact well I shouldn't say any I have really not had much if any contact since like the fall I did have a zoom call with their Council where they just kind of wanted to see where I had left off but the complaint that they filed doesn't include any of my work and the complaint that they filed is basically an effort to make sure that Corey does not get a single penny from Eric Rich's trust right is that your understanding of litigation I actually don't know much about that litigation and on purpose I have tried to ignore it I tried to stay in my lane and in my box and this is the box I'm in and so I really don't know the status I don't know what's been happening there My overall understanding is they were trying to enforce the trust the Eric Rich's living trust and Associated documents is that that's a weird way to say that but that's that's my understanding and when you were in their box when you were in the box with the trust was it your understanding that Corey richens was aware that a trust had been created before Eric passed I was under the impression of the opposite that she did not know about the trust and whether or not she knew or didn't know I really do not know the answer to that question so you've not reviewed any police reports in this case that talked about interviews of Katie the morning of Eric's death I know that there were some that took place but I have purposely not review them so you don't have personal knowledge one way or the other about whether Corey knew this trust was in place before Eric died I cannot testify one way or another about that okay um did Todd gabler ever give you any documents to analyze or it all came from the attorneys of the trust I didn't get anything from the attorneys where did you get the documents from the trust I believe I got everything from Katie from Katie the sister I believe so okay all right are you still retained in any way by the trust no I and I haven't I haven't engaged in conversation with them I haven't responded did anything for better part of the Year okay did you review new documents before you testified today that you did not review before the detention hearing yes how what are the new documents you reviewed before today um we have more bank account statements um there are loan documents that I did not have before and that includes promisory notes and I know that uh payment ledgers had been requested and there's very little of that due to the nature of the loans um I I searched and obtained uh many more deeds in South Carolina and in Utah and the UCC fings of the the personal property loans the unsecured loans um the insurance documents when when the and I I'm sorry I'm getting a little conversational but at the detention hearing it was early in the week say a Tuesday for example and most of the documents the financial documents that I reviewed I had had for just a couple of days okay literally I want to talk about these properties that you've looked at as far as miss richens it appears from your testimony with um the county attorney that that you were looking at the debt that those properties put her in is that right yes and I did testify about that exact point at the detention hearing because at that time that's all I had access to were those recorded documents so I could see the amount of the trust deed and I did acknowledge that that does not necessarily um represent what she owes on it but what she encumbered that's why I'm calling it an encumbrance so these charts that went up dealt with what she owed on the property to the best that you could determine looking at publicly available records right not necessarily the the the timeline chart that has all the colors I mean that that has a date well it has a point at which she no longer owned it her name is no longer on that and so so that represents that she no longer had that debt successfully flipped flipped that property right successfully would be um a judgment call and I've not been asked to Give opinions okay all right so let's talk about Equity okay when someone owns a home you have what the home is worth when you buy it but then you put money down on it you pay money towards your mortgage and at some point you build up something called equity in your house right that's true and when you have a lot of equity in your house you can go like she did on their house in Willow Creek right and go and say to a banker hey I have this property that has about $600,000 worth of equity in it can I borrow $50,000 and what is the banker likely to say to that a banker is likely to look at a lot of factors right go through some due diligence um given a lot of different factors probably going to say yes right because has value that's true and it's part of your net worth that is true so when you're evaluating someone's net worth you're looking at their debt for sure but you're also looking at things they have that have value that's true their jewelry right that's true they art work yes their stocks and bonds yes they equity and property yes you were not asked to make that evaluation by this County Attorney's Office correct because I don't see that you did a net worth evaluation here I have done some there there's some holes in it there's some holes in it so okay so you haven't today put on evidence of M Rich's net worth no and there are a lot of things that I don't know like I'm aware that she has a tax liability and I know that I I can estimate a range but I don't know how much that is and that would factor into her network and I know you're experienced um accountant you would never make a statement about someone's net worth if you knew you were missing critical documents to make that evaluation fair I I would definitely put a footnote on that okay um as far as the profits that Miss richens made when she flipped these houses unless you have the settlement statement the closing statement all the records it's not always possible to tell what her profit margin was is it well profit margins um the answer is maybe yes maybe no do you mind if I explain go ahead okay um for example Miss richens has a schedule that she had submitted to some lenders that talked about the projects that she'd done and she included in there are is the acquisition price the rehab budget what it was sold for and her profit and I've gone through a few of those and they're not accounted for correctly the sales the sales price does not reflect what her margin is you asked me about margin and the margin is not correct her profit is not correct on that what I can tell you the answer to your question is I can I do have the settlement statements on a lot of those and the settlement statements are prepared by the title company at closing and so that will go down the the item the sales price and the the deductions from that like the uh property taxes that need to be paid the encumbrances like the first trustee the second if there are more um some other agreed upon amount that needs to be on one side of The Ledger or another and then we get to a net proceeds amount and then I can go to her bank account statement and I can see those funds hit the bank account statement okay the way she had borrowed money not everybody who was involved I I use that term as um not everyone who had uh participated financially in that project would have had a deed filed that would have them hit the settlement statement so once the funds hit her bank account then she also had to pay some pay out some funds associated with that property so once she flipped a property paid off everybody that helped her out to buy it or rehabed it whatever's left in her pocket after she pays everybody is her profit that's right and you can't say that what that amount was on every one of these properties can you not every single one but I can on many okay and if you as I understand it she was serving ing some pretty major debt and servicing it right sending those checks out that's correct check after check after check making payment to her lenders right yeah they mostly were Auto withdrawals but yes and out of all those properties that you have with the pretty colors on your chart how many of those got foreclosed on before she flipped them before she flipped them well she doesn't own any anymore so none is the answer right none then so she successfully purchased the property got what she needed to rehabit flipped it and it never went under on any of those properties except for after she got arrested before she was arrested and again I'm GNA I'm going to um not use the word success because everyone's got a different version of what that term means I think what you're trying to say is did she end up selling them yes she did okay um all right did you ever interview any of Miss Richmond's hard money investors yes right did any of them other than green grass did any of them ever file suit against her for defaulting on their deal as far as you know do not know that okay all right the joint account with Eric and Corey that they paid their bills out of and their kids soccer fees and things like that um did you ever compare the deposits from Eric into that account versus deposits from Cory into that account I'm aware of how much was kind of coming and going and who put more money in that account Eric's um paycheck was um Auto deposited there and that was more than Cory's there were funds coming and going and so but they were for different purposes would you disagree with me that Corey sub substantially deposited more in that account than Eric did in the joint account from her krr account I don't know if I would agree with that or not um because there's a lot there there are a couple of instances where um C there is money coming from C I will say that there are a lot of instances where there are say there's a $5,000 payment from K Rich Andy account the 6577 into into the joint account but there are some instances where there's a lot of money coming from Eric's resources too okay now I want to back up just a little bit when you very first got on the stand and you were talking about the accounts who had access or whose name they were in so spouses have their own decision about who does the money who doesn't do the money and you are not privy to that Arrangement between Eric or Corey were you no so you don't know if they sat down at dinner every night and looked at every one of their bank account together do you I do not know that you do not know if Corey gave Eric the password to all their bank accounts and said babe it's shared money look at whatever you want to look at you don't know if that happen I do not know you don't know how often they talk about finances or what Eric knew or didn't know about Cory's business that's correct you do know that Eric invested in at least one property himself through his CN account the France uh France Lan thank you I would not call it investing I know that there were the CN checks that went into the K Rich and's realy account okay looks like they invested in the property if you were just looking from the outside Fair I have other information that tells me that's not the case that's why I've not included it in my testimony okay you also looked at the prenup agreement and we all know what prenups or Agreements are from TV right it's an agreement before you get married about how you're going to split stuff up if you get a divorce right that's true okay and in the prenup that was signed when they got married was the home con contained in that prenup that you've reviewed the home they lived in I don't recall I'd like I'd be happy to look at it take a second please it's exhibit number it's docket 106 I um I'm skimming this I don't recall it's in here is that correct it's not okay thank you for checking so if you don't have your home in a prenup regardless of whose name is on the title would you agree with me that as a spouse you have an interest in your marital home correct that's well hold on they about to object that it calls for a legal conclusion I can argue this because I it calls for a legal conclusion suain okay let me ask you this way you testified earlier that M Rich's got a Healer on that house is that right that's correct all right and you don't know if um you don't you're not a lawyer you're not a divorce lawyer certainly right that's correct so you can't tell and I almost just called them the jury automatically can't tell the jury um you can't tell whether or not M richens had lawful interest in that home that enabled her to put any type of lean on it or anything based on her marital interest because you're not you're not a divorce lawyer right that's the that legal conclusion okay so and you also don't know if Eric knew about the HELOC or when he knew about it or what he did about it calls for speculation I think that's what she's establishing you can answer the question I am aware that there is indicators there are indicators that he knew about it in October of 2020 that's right because he told it to the lawyer that he was saying about maybe getting a divorce right so when he told the divorce lawyer hey she took out this money on my account that was October of 2020 right so we know and the indicators are that's when he learned about it right so little less than two years before he passed away year and a half yet okay and how many payments did you see Eric richens make on that HELOC after October of 2020 in your review of all every payment that was made toward that heok how many did Eric make out of his account out of which account out of his accounts the 657 or I mean the the C account did he make any out of the CN account no did he ever sign a check for that that you ever saw I don't think so and it was coming out of their joint account or out of the krr account the real account mostly out of the 5244 account which was Cory's account okay so she's paying it the heck that she took on it yes okay and he knew about it in October of 2020 right okay and they stayed together obviously all right if the home was not contained in the prenut since you did work for the trust is it not true that the trust is taking the position that the home gets poured into the trust upon death I don't know she's just asking what Miss caring knows thank you do you know I don't know okay to be clear I think my knowledge on these issues is to that than anybody else in the room so I can keep it St well yeah and I appreciate that John I think the summary Jud MO two weeks ago ruled on this varation I can give you chapter and verse on these if we need okay thank you just keep I'll try to SK we'll just keep it um okay just a minute just making sure I don't miss anything I want to talk about those life insurance policies that were on your chart if you could look at that TR in front of you those six policies it's not up but that's fine Oh I thought you had a binder I'm sorry it it's okay thank you it's exhibit number um I think it is isit 69 yes sir thank you now of those policies on exhibit 69 the very first policy is a mortgage policy that's correct which just pays off the mortgage if you die it doesn't pay it off it pays it down significantly right sorry you said that 70 some weird percent some weird percent yeah okay so that life insurance policy is made payable to the mortgage company and as far as I know it was paid directly to them okay in your chart it says it was paid to the trust do you see that they were the beneficiary I say they were the beneficiary but that was no that's not what I've said but it was paid toward the mortgage is my understanding so Corey and when was that policy obtained back in okay and do you even know Eric applied for that right himself I do not know I you don't you don't know I don't okay second policy what's the second one um on my chart is the $250,000 true Stitch from 17 and that's 2017 that's correct and do you know um do you know whether Eric um that is not one of the questionable signatures right you've agreed that's Eric's signature on that application let's make it clear I'm not making any determination out of signatures that's not me okay so the the report you read from the handwriting analyst didn't look at that signature of the true stage $250,000 policy correct actually I I don't know he he looked at in his report he lists a couple of dozen few dozen of exemplars I don't know if that's one or not okay do you know um whether or not Eric richens had to take a medical exam to get that life insurance policy I don't I don't recall I think I've got the documents for that but I don't off the top of my head know so you can't say right now as you sit here whether Eric was involved in getting that policy or not you just don't know I I don't recall there's both of those those next two there's the the true stage and the auto owners that was part of a a group of policies where there's one on M richens one on Mr richens somewhere along the line there's some on the kids too that auto insurance policy that's the big one that's a million dollars right auto owners and what is the date that insurance policy was applied for that's also in 2017 so help me with math 5 years before he died that's right and that million dooll policy there's no way they're going to Ure somebody for a million dollars if they don't have a medical exam you think that's fair I think that's a fair statement yes okay um and then the next insurance policy was what day uh this is in April of 2018 with New York Life so that's four years before he passed that's right and do you know who applied for that um I have the documents but I don't recall I'm sorry and do you know whether Mr uh and how much was that one for 500,000 and do you again that's pricey bless you honor that's a pricey insurance policy again I would imagine that would require a medical exam do you know if Eric submitted to one I know that he did on a policy I've seen that and I can't recall which one it or was I I just don't recall th those details so that really just leaves and the policy that he had with his partner the buy sell policy which Partners do all the time right in business yes that money goes to the partner that doesn't go to the spouse that's they're set up specifically that way right so the only policy on there that was obtained Within in any short period of time before Eric died was the very last one for $100,000 right right and that's usually typically in my experience that's an amount that probably would not have required a an exam totally agree and that policy is one of those ones that we all get in the mail if you belong to a credit union where they send you a little flyer you get it in your junk mail and it says hey you want to up your insurance no exam just sign here and we'll add some more for free please do that do is that what that is um it is a brochure from the credit union but what you've just described isn't it's not contained in there it was it was an offer of life insurance though made by the credit union to all their credit union members as just like a a perk for being a credit union member it's it's a marketing brochure yes here's some pretty cheap insurance grab it if you want it right that would be a fair statement yes okay and that's the policy that was taken out I guess that was signed to become effective a few weeks before or a month and a half before he passed a month yeah okay and again that's $100,000 out of a total insurance amount that had been obtained years before exceeding $2 million that's right okay were you ever asked to look at um Eric's Financial records and his company or his business anybody ever give those to you I do have I do have his bank accounts that the bank accounts for their company yes and the bank accounts that you talked about where I'll strike go not up okay courts Indulgence I think just about th you on can I ask a quick question your honor thank you very much thank you Miss Carrington Mr any redirect within the scope across yes M Carrington um you were asked about a successful flip yes um when if if we're measuring success um and has an amount above and beyond all costs that go into the purchasing rehabbing taxing Etc the flip um that is a a measure of successful flip were these purchases and subsequent sales successful if they were sold if that's your measure of success then they were they were sold so that would be successful there were several where instances where the investors did not were not going to get their money out of that particular property so their trust deed their investment was transferred to a different property where there was room for them to to be repaid so some of these subsequent sales were did not even meet the investment that went into them that's right okay um so at the time of the defendant's Death March 4th um what was the summary of debt owing do you have figure for that um yes um three of the homes had previously had recently prior to Eric's death had been sold um for about $170,000 in net proceeds and then um Corey had M richens had retained I believe five properties at that time the um hilock was over its limit it was at $252,000 on dollars on its balance um her credit line um at PenFed had been exceeded her credit line at um U America First was about maxed out and um she had ended the year in 2021 in the in the whole um I think in her 5244 account she was in the whole $155,000 and in the 6577 account she was in the whole $22,000 there just were no resources um when you say there's no resources um so then she's unable to service all the debt she's acquired that's correct and at at that time um again it's kind of um mix and match to try and figure out how much debt load she had she owed about $4 million on well I let me restate that the trust Deeds associated with the property that she retained were about $ 400 $4 million so she probably owed a little bit less than that and then the um the personal property loans the pay the accounts payable loans I I believe her balance at that time was about five between 5 and $600,000 somewhere then between 3 million and 4 million is her total debt load she has at the time of March 4th 2022 no would go the other direction so she had roughly $4 million in real estate that she owed on and then um um another 5 to $600,000 in those personal property loans so 4 and a half million something like that okay you mentioned um the HELOC in in uh talking to U defense Council um do you know other than that one 50,000 payment on principle in October of 20 uh 2020 were there any other payments that you're aware of that were substantially Beyond just paying the interest no they were pretty much the minimum payments for the rest of the life of the Lo when did she stop drawing money on the he do you mind if I look at my notes no that' be just fine in October of 2021 uh is the last draw of $2,300 um payable to K rich realy and um why didn't she just take some more out of there objection to speculation your honor I think he's asking a financial question over the balance of that account the the limit was 250,000 and as of that time the balance was 23, 19925 so there was no room to draw more um did these lenders that you're aware of analyze um her uh the defendant's net worth and she was taking out these loans it counts receivable for it appears yes they did okay so how much did she have in artwork um I don't recall anything any artwork listed okay how about jewelry I don't recall any jewelry listed either okay um when we when you looked at um the afcu bank accounts from which bank account were the payments made to the top Insurance 1 through 4 those are paid from the joint checking 2204 okay and um that's distinguished from the last one the one made um on February 4th um or entered into on February 4th um with apparently no notice to Eric um that was paid from which account from the 6577 account for Cy I have nothing for nothing your H thank you you step okay Mr Bloodworth what's the plan you honor the state does not intend to any moreid does the state rest State okay uh Miss Le Miss almost is the defense going to be calling any Witnesses no your Hy won't be it's late there's a lot of information here and a lot of counts I'm disinclined to cram that in today what's a reasonable time to come back to tomorrow confirm that M richens wants to wave her right to testify and uh argue about the Shing the probable cost um whatever time you're allowed to have a preference later later the better later the better do you want to do it in the afternoon how about 10 o00 10 a.m. Mr bedward yes sir okay very good Mr rans yes all right M Richards we will uh retire for the evening Court will be in recess until 10 a.m. tomorrow morning I wish you all the very best please listen to the de instructions we do this in an orderly manner we'll be back on the record at 10 a.m. tomorrow morning thank you courts and recess