Should Joe Biden and Nancy Pelosi Be Allowed to Receive Holy Communion? Cardinal Burke's Answer!

and Apple mobile devices the instruction of cardinal Raymond Burke on respecting the body and blood of the Lord and when Holy Communion should be denied Thomas McKenna president of Catholic action for Faith and family will be our guest today to help us understand and digest these important teachings today on the simple truth we do consecrate everything to the Sacred Heart of Jesus Through the Immaculate Heart of Mary and the pure strong chased heart of St Joseph the book we're talking about today respecting the body and blood of the Lord when Holy Communion should be denied written by Cardinal Raymond Leo Burke with commentary by Thomas McKenna Our Guest today you can get the book by going to Sophia Institute press Sophia institute.com that's Soph institute.com and again our guest today is Thomas McKenna he's the founder and president of Catholic action for Faith and family and St Giana Physicians Guild he also serves as the executive director of the confraternity of Catholic clergy a National Association of priests and deacons he's the author of The Fatima Century how the pilgrim virgin is changing our generation and St GI barola a modern-day hero of divine love he lectures nationally and internationally and has published articles in a variety of Catholic journals in the United States and abroad Thomas has worked closely with Cardinal Raymond Burke for over 25 years and is a member of of the equestrian order of the Holy supper of Jerusalem and a fourth degree night of Columbus Thomas McKenna very blessed to have you here today welcome to the simple truth thank you for being with us how are you today I'm well it's um it's great to be with you Jim it's nice uh nice to be able to discuss important issues of the day absolutely and this is one of the most important which uh if the audience if you're not aware of the importance of this yet today as we pack this you will quickly um understand but let's begin with the backstory of the book what motivated Cardinal Burke to write it and also what got you involved well as you mentioned I I've known and worked with Cardinal Burke for over almost three years now and back in there's an issue that has comes up every election cycle we're going through it now is our politicians who are running for office going say they're Catholic or even go to church and and are pro-abortion or pro- homosexual marriage or a grave contradiction so this book that Cardinal Burke wrote was back in 2004 you had the presidential election you had George Bush running against Senator kery Senator Kerry is lifelong Catholic but his all his years in the senate in public office was pro-abortion so what happened this became a big discussion during the campaign Trail because for at least the last 60 to 70 years in our country because the the largest single voting block are Roman Catholics whether you know even if you're not practicing there's no comparison to any other s single block so who in the last 60 to 70 years whichever candidate gets the Catholic vote wins the election and at that time Senator kery was going to church on Sunday showing up on the campaign Trail and when he went it to St Louis he was passing through and someone interviewed Cardinal Burke who was then the Archbishop of St Louis and asked him would you give Holy Communion to Senator Cary because of his background he said no I would not I would meet with him I would counsel him but he he is not you know he would have to do a Public Act of Rec reparation for this so that was it this set off a a big discussion in The Bishop's conference you had some as as it still is today saying you you can't be that mean communion is for everyone and then the so Cardinal Burke wrote that time he was asked by a group of Bishops to write a study because he was considered the tell today I would say still the greatest Canon lawyer he was ah head of the apostolic signatura for many years um so he did a study showing going back from the beginning of time of the church showing how it was always consistent that you you had to be in communion with the church to receive Holy Communion that was a sign you couldn't be other words be a sinner be a murderer without going to to confession and so he wrote this study and it was just it was published in in the Canon Law Journal at the time and last year with the election coming up again and Joe Biden going to be running again I asked Cardinal Burke could we publish it so organ my organization Catholic action published the book a short version not the Sophia but the actual study and we mailed it to every Bishop priest and Deacon in the United States with with about 45,000 copies with a a letter not telling them to deny communion not in saying you can't do that but we sent it to him saying there's a misunderstanding about this and we're offering this to you so that's kind of the background that it's this issue is not going to go away and um the version you're talking about the the the book by Sophia press this was a version the same study but then I did a commentary about it for the lay person because it's not just for politicians this issue is all of us need to be worthy and that's that's the book that we're talking discussing today yeah absolutely Thomas McKenna is with us the book is entitled respecting the body and blood of the Lord when Holy Communion should be denied by Cardinal Burke and the commentary uh that you have written in here is very helpful and the writing by Cardinal Burke is really just extraordinary this is so important and what he writes here at the end of the introduction um just saying that it seems best to study the history of the legislation articulated in Canon 915 um yeah that that's seems pretty wise let's see you know what what is the perennial teaching what has been the continual teaching of the church on this we go all the way back uh to the the Sacred Scriptures and here from St Paul in 1 Corinthians 11 uh: 27-29 and you you start there and um and it just keeps going I mean there are so many documents that you go through various moments in church history uh where this comes up and uh and this all culminates in Canon 9:15 um which again I think there's a lot of folks in our audience that are tracking with us that know what all of these things are uh but we will unpack them as we go as well so so first let's just speak to the the Sacred Scriptures so 1 Corinthians chap 11 this is 28 and 29 it says whoever therefore eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord let a man examine himself and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup for anyone who eats and drinks without Discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself end of quote now th this is actually really personal to me this teaching because my conversion um back to the Catholic church in in 2001 it really stems from this from a few years before this when very much loss to the world and I walked into a a church for a Mass for my grandparents 25th wedding anniversary and the the the priest there that day he proclaimed the truth on the teaching of the Holy Eucharist um and the the teaching of the disposition of how we are to receive the Holy Eucharist and that if we're not in a state of sanctifying grace if we're in mortal sin that we are not to come forward and relieve and receive our Lord in the Holy Eucharist to do so would be committing another even more Grievous mortal sin um which would be bad for us obviously and would be wrong offensive to our Lord as well and going against what the church teaches um but uh but he proclaimed this and also offered yes so go to confession that's where you go uh if you believe that this is true and if you're in mortal sin you confess your sin you you lay it out you get back into sanctifying Grace then you come on back and you receive Holy Communion I had never heard any of that before I didn't even it's the first time I ever even heard that the Eucharist was actually in fact Jesus the body and blood soul and Divinity of our Lord Jesus and so it was a pretty big moment kind of cut me to the heart many other people there uh see to be unaffected um but thanks be to God for that priest to proclaim the truth there and allow the Lord to use it I did not go forward to receive the Eucharist that day and I otherwise was planning to just because I was there which was the thing to do um and it started off a seed of of questioning of wondering what is true what are these teachings never heard them before and so um it actually ended up leading me back to making a good confession once I said yes to Jesus and the teachings of the Catholic church and was ready to truly had Contrition and and sorrow for my sins went back to confession and then went and received our Lord in the Holy Eucharist and he just blew me away from there and and just thanks be to God this is all real I was convicted on the spot in what he did in my soul and continue to do from there but that's why this teaching needs to be proclaimed so Canon 9:16 deals with that Canon 9:15 deals with those who are obstinately manifest in grave sin and what to do about that um but as you say we all need to know this teaching for ourselves but also for our loved ones anybody entrusted to our care it's our responsibility to transmit this teaching to you anything personal to you with respect to this teaching did you always know this from an early age did you gra did you get it somewhere along the way you know I was blessed to uh be brought up Catholic as a child praying the family Rosary praying Grace at Mills going to you know Church uh never you never missed a Sunday so you know talking about the message of Fatima so um you know I I I was I had was a bless to have that as a young person but that's not the case and you know I grew up you know I was born I grew up in this in the 60s I was born in 62 and the 70s and those were very confused times there was a lot of new ideas there was confusion in society you know with the 60s you know Revolution and we saw that too following Vatican 2 in the church there was a lot of conf like confusion and made confusion and so people a lot of people didn't have these clear they like yourself um this wasn't talked about and I think what I what was very beautiful about your story was showing how the clergy Cardinal Burke these Bishops like writing this study these are team players we're on we're on the same team and the priest is reaching out like by preaching this to you it changed your life so that's the that's the part today sometimes um people one of the things I I I like to talk about is remind people is that once again this this idea of denying communion comes out of the act of Charity it's based on charity not on punishment because a priest or a bishop has the obligation to clarify the issue for the faithful like you the result was it brought you back to the church not telling you oh go ahead do what you want live the life and you can come to Union just like everybody else so that's it's we're all on the same team we're all part of the same family of Souls of the Catholic Church yeah so grateful for the charity of that priest father McGarity uh he was in the dases of Buffalo New York and Niagara Falls New York and uh just so grateful for him got to go and and meet him uh as well like 20 years later in a nursing home and went to confession to him again and uh just will always be extremely grateful uh for that priest to stand up and proclaim the truth when um he otherwise didn't have to but he knew that he needed to we'll be right back stay tuned ask a priest live weekdays at 6 p.m. Eastern on the Station of the Cross we'll bring you a different priest each weekday where you can participate in a live Q&A on the topics that matter to get your question in for father call 877511 5483 while the show is Live email us anytime at priests theof theeccentricm page at the stof [Music] theeccentricm [Music] right here on the Station of the Cross and the free I Catholic radio mobile app download it today God love you here at the Station of the Cross we proudly bring the truths of the Catholic faith to countless listeners through radio and mobile devices and we're grateful for the feedback we've received I grew up Catholic Church haven't been in the Catholic church for a decades but I'm in the process of working my way back for the simple reason that I needed a place to listen to pro-life Pro family messages Catholic radio is it it's a place to hear that message without all the political bias and all that that's going on on News Talk Radio changing my life it's the only station I turn on the Catholic station is an answer to prayer it just couldn't be more fulfilling it's helped me learn more about the faith and it's helped me to deepen my faith as a result of that it's on continuously in my house day and night you can't imagine how much I received from that channel if you've been blessed by listening to the Station of the Cross let us know call 877888 6279 extension 112 then share your testimonial with [Music] us welcome back to the simple truth Jim Havens here with Thomas McKenna he has written the commentary in this great book respecting the body and blood of the Lord when Holy Communion should be denied it's a text by Cardinal Raymond burking get it at Sophia Institute press Sophi institute.com this newest edition includes commentary by Thomas McKenna where blessed to have him here um so there there is so much packed in here um and it's quite dense I do want to ask you about the intended audience of this I know you you sent it out you said to I believe you said to every priest in the country and Deacon that would be such a daunting task to take on and complete tell us more about that is this really intended mostly for them but also obviously this is very much something that we all ought to have a grasp of I don't know that we need to have um as an indepth grasp as we go through in this entire historical study of this as we have here I don't know that we all need to know all of these points but um but they are sure helpful for anybody that really wants to understand how this has this has been the church's teaching all the way through and um and anyone who wants to kind of push back when they hear um people questioning this teaching or disobeying this teaching ignoring this teaching that we're going to get to especially in Canon 9:15 with respect to um what what the church is to do what we are to do when there are manifest um obstinate uh people in grave sin uh seeking to come forward for Holy Communion what's the protocol there it's quite clear and there's such a history what do you want to share with us I guess about the intended audience here before we get into some of the historical points well uh first of all I'd like to me mention that the you've read the book you see the book um it's a very easy it's not a complicated book in the sense that most chapters are five to six pages don't it's not essay and then at the back of this version I wrote commentary applying it for the Ley so the reason we mailed it to every Bishop priest and Deacon in the United States is because the issue and I because I work with a lot of clergy I'm I've been the director for many many years of the confraternity of Catholic clergy that I've gone to Bishop conferences for over 25 years like so I I was talking with Bishops and Priests and when we start discussing this you find out that many of them don't know un they don't understand Canon 915 they they that some people say oh you're weaponizing it others say know you you should enforce it but when you start going through it they really don't understand it and if they if you don't have a good clear understanding of it how can you transmit that to your faithful and that was really why Cardinal Burke wrote this originally and I would I would say he wrote it probably more intended for clergy because the discussion there was debates in our Bishop's conferences here in the United States over this issue some Bishops saying you you should deny communion and others saying you never should deny communion it's interesting that Cardinal ratzinger at the time he was you know Pope FR he was the head of the uh congregation for the doctrine of the faith he wrote a letter to The Bishop's conference here it supporting the side supporting saying you have to be pastoral and and kind but yes this this is correct so I that's why last year when the election was coming up again I said well here we're going to have you know the current president running for office once again now he stepped down but last fall that was everyone understood he as the president would be running and his administration is the most pro-abortion in the history of our country I would say and I thought you know this is a it's grave Scandal that that's the other aspect of Canon 9:15 it's a to correct The Sinner the penitent like you you say you can't do this you have to get in in the good Grace With God but another aspect of why the church says you need to do this you need to call this out publicly because of the public Scandal that's given when when people see the president saying we're going to defend abortion we're going women's rights and everything and then he goes to mass every weekend in Washington or wherever he is he goes to mass um and other politicians um it make creates confusion and the in the in the church and card Brook addresses it in the book it's called Scandal Scandal is when you when you do something that can question the faith of another person so that's really why he wrote it but we sent the book out with the idea to help educate the clergy that's that's what our ition of our campaign and that's why we we didn't tell them like you know you have to deny communion you have to get serious and no we said there's a lot of misunderstandings Cardinal Burke is a a great writer he's a canonist he wrote this study and we Catholic action we funded it we raised money and we're sending this to you because we love our clergy we want to support you and if you have any questions you know please follow up so that's really I I would say yes he he probably that it was written for clergy that's why we put the this version that that um Sophia press published is with the commentary I I think is has had much more effect with the Ley is applying the teaching what I do is I I I go through and I break down G Burke said this what does he mean by this how does that apply to me like the father of a family you know a politician is doing one thing but as a father or mother of a family you know Rec am I raising my children in the truth of the church am I giving them that example that's that's going to be on me am I worthy to go receive Holy Communion so that's that's kind of the background on on on the book but it's not a complicated book to read yeah no I I think that uh you did a fantastic job in the commentary that the takeaways that you give the uh the points to ponder um all very helpful things to kind of uh highlight and underline uh the key highlights in the chapter and uh those are very very helpful um but yeah I think that that one of the big takeaways from this book at least for me is not necessarily um a sense that we have to memorize every aspect of the history of this but to know there is a history to it and it's a continual history and it's very impressive once you read it and you see it laid out I think one of the the the the most interesting parts of that history is one one that you um have already mentioned and that is uh with respect to Cardinal ratzinger I believe it was 2004 when um when he was asked when the uh the the the Roman CER was asked about um how are we to apply Canon 9:15 so I want you to kind of share some of that story how did that come about and uh very interesting as you get into the details of that but first let's just read the Canon so people know precisely what we're talking about let's start with Canon 99116 which says a person who is conscious of grave sin is not to celebrate mass or receive the body of the Lord without previous sacramental confession unless there is a grave reason and there is no opportunity to confess in this case the person is to remember the obligation to make an act of perfect Contrition which includes the resolution of confessing as soon as possible now I will say that part of the cannon I believe has been greatly abused the key there is unless there is a grave reason right so you ought to go to confession if you're in mortal sin not not make up kind of a reason why you can receive and go to confession later to me a grave reason is a grave reason a serious reason like a soul facing uh you know going into battle and facing possible death um that would be a grave reason um but again then even in those cases um there's a way that it works that you're making that obligation you're trying to make an a perfect ACT an act of perfect Contrition which is a bit of a a difficult um bar to hit and then also making that resolution to confess as soon as possible the next opportunity um so that's all that all needs to be made clear but in Canon 9:15 uh to me this is Crystal Clear just on its face explicitly what it says it says those who have been excommunicated or interdicted after the imposition or declared of the penalty and others obstinately persevering and manifest grave sin are not to be admitted to Holy Communion so those who are obstinately persevering and manifest grave sin manifest meaning public are not to be admitted to Holy Communion obstinately p vering means that somebody's talked to them the bishop or a priest or or somebody has has made it clear to them hey did you know this was grave sin grave matter did you know that don't come forward for Holy Communion if you're going to continue in this but you know what would be best is to stop doing this repent of it um go and uh and repent and then you'll be um you'll be free to to receive Holy Communion without a problem here if you're in that state of sanctifying grace but um but here is I guess where um it's it's gotten difficult again once you hear it all in context it makes perfect sense especially in context of that 2004 uh letter with Cardinal ratzinger to the USCCB that unpacked Canon 9915 uh with even greater Clarity I don't know how anybody can deny it what can you tell us about uh that episode well it's there's a you know a a sad story my probably many of your listeners are familiar with it so this so the because the issue became a main issue in the B Bishop's conference leading up to the election you had factions of of our Bishops that were saying radically no you can never deny communion you're weaponizing it and then you had Cardinal Burke and many others saying that's not reasonable you can't be pro-abortion and say you're Catholic a good standing so they formed a committee and for the you know maybe you're familiar with this you know who the the head of the committee was at that time then Cardinal mccarrick who was very much on the on the side of you know not denying communion sadly we know his history I won't I don't need to go into for your listeners he's defro he's no longer a priest he he did bad things but he was he was appointed the head of the committee so what's sad and dishonest I have to say was uh they wrote this letter asking the congregation in Rome to clarify for it well can cardinal singer sent a letter back to the Bishops here and who received it was Cardinal mccarrick because he was the head of the committee well when they had their summer meeting in Denver that year he did not reveal that to The Bishop's conference he he he he sat on that and it only came out because later Cardinal Burke later that year had a meeting with Cardinal ratzinger and he asked him why did you not answer my letter you our our consultation and Cardinal r brise said I did I I I sent a letter back I'll give you a copy of it here and that's when it came out that the letter had been sent sadly very you know dishonestly Cardinal mck had not revealed that to The Bishop's conference which you know that that would have had some some weight there um so that that's that's kind of a sad episode but as I mentioned before this issue is not going to go away some some just don't want to talk about it because they say you know let's don't talk about it you you should just make a big issue about it well it is a big issue and like a bishop you know like one time there was an instance that Cardinal Burke was confronted um by a certain preet and said you're just Mak making trouble you you're you stop this this is this all this is is a is issue you're just a troublemaker and and Cardinal Burke turned to him very kindly he's if if you've ever met Cardinal Burke he's a very softspoken man he's presented as this you know ruthless meant but he's very softspoken lovely his response was when I die and go before God you nor any of the other Bishops of this conference are going to be there to judge me it's going to be God so I am going to do what I feel I need to do for a clean conscience and and that's what I think we we have to see is honesty he's doing this in charity and again it's not a cardinal Burke issue he's because he was outspoken on it some have tried to make like that's that's his issue like that's a cardinal Burke whose side are you on Cardinal Burke is not on anyone's side you know that book when you read it it's it's it's clearing the the the issue for people it's not taking a side he's not demanding you got to he's never told anyone you have to deny communion he's just presenting the facts in a very loving and pastoral way absolutely yeah and the conclusion though is clear for anyone I think of of common sense and Good Will I don't think you need a a vast intellect to understand this that uh that that what Canon 915 says it needs to be imp applied it needs to be enforced quite frankly it needs to be obeyed and so I think after reading through this it' be hard for me to understand how this to me seems like you're informing the Bishops and the priests and the deacons making sure they have well-formed consciences on this at this point though after they've read it how can they not obey and enforce Canon 915 we'll talk about it when we get back stay [Music] tuned many atheists assert the only real form of knowledge is scientific knowledge thus excluding any sort of religious knowledge whether philosophical or theological such a belief is called scientism and it's unreasonable for two reasons first it's self-refuting its truth cannot be verified by the scientific method it's a metaphysical proposition and as such is not scientific knowledge but if science can't verify the truth of scientism well then scientism itself cannot be a legitimate form of knowledge in which case is self-refuting moreover scientism undermines science as a rational form of inquiry because it denies presupposed philosophical assumptions that are necessary to even do science such as there's an external World outside the minds of scientists so to reject God's existence on the grounds that it's not scientific knowledge is simply unreasonable I'm Carlo brussard with the ready reason for Catholic answers catholic.com the Station of the Cross began broadcasting in Buffalo New York in 1999 since then our listening areas have multiplied and expanded into several States while our mission is to grow the Catholic faith through radio and other media Outlets our apostolate is supportive of but independent from your local dicese through your generosity we are able to inspire countless listeners with the gospel and help lead them to a parish to be spiritually nourished by the sacraments here a powerful sermon you need to share with a loved one maybe there's a guest prayer or teaching segment that deserves another listen you can listen to any of our Network produced programs at your convenience by finding us wherever you enjoy podcasts Apple podcast Spotify Google podcast podbean and the free I Catholic radio app be uplift Ed in your faith listen today at the stof [Music] theeccentricm place for for many many great texts and this is one of them Sophia Institute press Sophia institute.com and again Thomas McKenna's commentary written into this new edition and um and before we continue did you know that the only Catholic mobile phone company in the US today is I Catholic mobile if you have cell phone service why not switch to I Catholic mobile not only do you get your cell service from a Catholic Source you can feel good about but also I Catholic mobile gives a portion of every dollar earned to the Station of the Cross Catholic media Network which means when you subscribe to I Catholic mobile you are helping to fund all the programs on the Station of the Cross including the simple truth we do greatly appreciate you switching over to I Catholic mobile you can join today at I Catholic mobile.com all right back to uh this great book respecting the body and blood of the Lord Cardinal Raymond Berg again Sophia institute.com and um I just again want to drill down on the the great importance here in my view um what we see on this issue with respect to enforcing or obeying you can say Canon 9:15 to me it's really the intersection of the two greatest offenses in our time in terms of what I see as the greatest offense in our church which is um the um the sacrilege committed uh the way that we the way that the Holy Eucharist is is often treated and the way um people are just um receiving um our Lord in mortal sin uh committing another mortal sin there again the these these grave offenses but all the grave offenses concerning our Lord in in the Holy Eucharist um so it's it's that within the church and then outside of the church um I think the greatest offense that we see is this uh the offenses against human life which most prominently we we see the the greatest manifestation of this evil is the ongoing daily murder of our littlest brothers and sisters by the thousands in the US every single day by the hundreds of thousands worldwide every single day and our largely desensitization to this um this is um it's it's just beyond um what we can imagine in terms of the gravity of this evil what we're talking about and yet these two things intersect when we talk about what about people that are supporting this what about people that are are pushing this that are entrenching this and protecting this in society in government in law in culture um and they're doing it publicly and and they have been warned and they continue to do it anyway they've been told the truth they continue to do it anyway so these obstinate U manifest um folks that are obstinately manifestly in grave sin um and then they're going forward to receive the H Holy Eucharist um what are we to do well Canon is very clear and again what it says very very clearly there in Canon 9:15 is that um they are not to be admitted to Holy Communion so 9:16 is say is telling them like don't come forward if you're in mortal sin right but 9:15 is saying not only do they not come forward but those who are administering Holy Communion are not to not to admit them to Holy Communion or not to extend Holy Communion to them so that's what it is it's very rarely enforced very rarely obeyed um but Thomas McKenna you again have sent this um this writing of cardinal Burke which is so charitable so clear to every Bishop every priest every Deacon in the United States what have you seen in terms of the response especially in this year where all this talk of Eucharistic Revival the Eucharistic Congress um I don't hear a lot of talk about enforcing or obeying Canon 9:15 though but maybe you are what has been the response in your view well um this this book was mailed in February of 2023 so it's well over a year ago um we initially received I would say um maybe a couple of hundred responses we put we had a reply card I would say about a um a third were against this contesting you know saying this is just making trouble you shouldn't be doing this um very few gave an actual you know response many we did get I would say two-thirds favorable about maybe a little over a third um you know not favorable saying that this is that by publishing that this book of cardinal Burke which I don't understand they're rationale but they basically just said this is you know is Con is is going against Pope Francis this is you know going against causing trouble in the church and they they that's it they they were just comments um our part again we've made this available you know it did it help you know I think I'm sure there are many that read it we had some Seminary directors who ordered it a copies to give to all their seminarians one one professor said that he was going to use this in his marriage prep CL like when talking about an nement and things that he was going to you know talk use the book so we did have a we had one PR one Bishop um he had a big confer one priest he ordered I think four or 500 copies of it he wanted to give it out to every parishioner in in his every family um so there were you know there were those that that were very enthusiastic and of course there were those who who who didn't like it but it goes back to I think what one of the things you you brought up here is how this is a process this isn't this idea of denying communion isn't that all of a sudden one day a priest appears up on the altar in the Pulpit says if you've done this this this and you you this you should not present yourself this should be an ongoing dialogue and that and that's that would be my question to some of these Bishops I'm not saying you should deny communion Cardinal Burke is not saying it but the question is are you in dialogue have you called that parisher in for me say you know I'd like to talk with you you know I'm your pastor if they don't want to listen that's that's you know that's on them but on you you're responsible a priest is responsible for those the flock in his Parish so we wanted to provide and maybe a better understanding of what an obligation this is this this is not you can't some so so you kind of kind of the idea well are you a Deni communion side Catholic or are you a not Deni communion that that's not the proper and there are some that look at it that way that you know in fact the confusion got to the point where we have I you know Bishop saying in my dicese we will never we will not deny Community other Bishops saying in our Das she like San Francisco the Archbishop after several years of dialogue with Nancy Pelosi former Speaker of the House years several years I know this because of firsthand um and she stopped you know communicating with him he publicly went on record and said in the arch dicese she is prohibited to receive Holy Communion and Priests and ministers should not give communion to her in the dases and in Santa Rosa just north of him the bishop there also came out and said to his clergy I am I am going to stand by what the Archbishop did so in in in my dicese she also is not okay but that was after a long dialogue and and she shut the door on him so it people have to understand this is a educational and I would like to use the word pastoral we hear a lot about pastoral well this is very pastoral not bringing up the issue is not very pastoral because if someone is sinning and you're in a position as a priest is it's his obligation to at least warn the person you're you're going down the down if that person ends up in hell that could be you know partly on on on on the the the soul of the of the priest responsibility so it's an obligation and that's really what we wanted to show at the book is how how it's an obligation and also we wanted to give them the elements you can go through the book here and and it talks about how the councils of the church what is the law he explains a summ what does the catechism say about it um he gives what do the fathers of the church say about it so it's it's very comprehensive this would be something a parent could use in you know in their household but again a priest we provided the background for them to be able to stand up and talk about this in public that was the goal of the campaign and what Cardinal Berg intended with the book yeah to me what's amazing is that somebody could read this book and then reject it and to me that's not an intellectual response that's that's something that's something gone wrong in the heart at that point because the intellectual argument here is just Rock Solid I mean it's irrefutable in my opinion what has been laid out here uh by Cardinal B Burke here and it's just what the church teaches so do you want to humbly receive what the church teaches and be faithful to it or not and yeah there are there's still there's still some room in there in terms of interpretation of how long do you dialogue for and and all of this so yeah there are some some variables um but but you can't just completely ignore it or you can't say I don't believe this or it isn't true it's right here over and over again throughout the church's history in in these various teachings that you bring up authoritative teachings and so uh we mentioned Joe Biden we mentioned Nancy Pelosi we mentioned uh Pope Francis well I just want to play some rapid fire clips here and then have you respond to these Thomas but this gives some example I guess of what we're talking about in terms of what we're dealing with in the world today surrounding all of this this first clip is a is a priest in Rome who um Biden in 20121 he received the Holy Eucharist at St Patrick's American Church in Rome a day after he had a Papal visit with Pope Francis here's what the director of that church had to say about it here it is I'm not the Eucharist police um uh the Eucharist is as Pope Francis and many pops have said um uh medicine for those for for those who need it who is everyone all of us um so it wasn't uh difficult um uh no and again I'm following the um the direction with the great example that Pope Francis has given um but again my own pre uh instruction that um the Eucharist is to be shared all right so again trying to frame it like this is again penal or a police activity no this is out of Charity this is out of love of God and neighbor that's what this is and and and then trying to to make to get Pope Francis on his side in this um that is somewhat unclear but there are reasons to be concerned let's skip the next C C and go to um Joe Biden in 2019 what he said in a PBS interview about Pope Francis actually giving him communion here it is and a uh a Catholic priest uh did not give you communion he said it was because of your position on abortion were you offended by that uh that's a private matter I'm not going to talk about that uh but uh uh it's the only time it's ever happened and we didn't talk about it he went to the Press about it uh and it's not a position that I've found anywhere else including from the Holy Father who gives me communion all right so that priest was charitable doing what he was called to do obeying Canon 915 in South Carolina there but then he invokes Pope Francis now who knows if that's true if Pope Francis actually gives him Holy Communion as he says but doesn't the Vatican at least have a responsibility to respond to that to my knowledge they've given no response to this they ought to deny it if it's not true um and if it is true then they've got some answering to do but here's one final clip let's sneak it in here Nancy Pelosi on the Vatican and holy communion in 2021 here it is the US Arch Bishops uh and the and the Bishop's conference are doesn't want to give any money or doesn't want to give allow you to be receive communion your retion to that no I I think I can use my judgment on that but uh um I'm I'm pleased with what the Vatican put out on that subject did you read that that'll be up to the indiv Priest No it basically said don't be divisive on the subject thank you all right so there's Nancy Pelosi making herself the magisterium the the authority on on what the church teaches here sadle and uh she again a lot of dialogue with Archbishop cordone she's been talked to and she's obstinately manifest in grave sin um Arch Archbishop cordone doing the right thing and uh uh enforcing obeying Canon 9:15 but do you hear her again she wants to uh bring Pope Francis bring the Vatican in down to this and try to reframe it and say well that's being divisive Thomas your response well I think one thing I would like to mention is that before he made that final decree for a more than a year before that he he offered and he invited the public to join him every Friday fasting for Nancy Pelosi's conversion that's that's a man that you know loves his flock that that's not just baloney I know that he did that so that's that's just wrong they're they're trying to make confusion one thing I'll tell you is of when I've had clerger people say oh that's your opinion wrong I bring up the book I say show me show me in this book that Cardinal Burke wrote show me something a point that you disagree with show me something that's not right about it and I haven't had that happen yet they so they keep it at it just kind of attitudes well you're of that party I'm of this party and no no you can't look at it that way right that's actually them being political and making this a political thing this isn't about that at all we'll be right back stay tuned the Catholic current bringing Christ to the world and the world to Christ you are worth my time you're worth my undivided attention God is blessing us by putting us uh together it's funny because people talk about quality time and honestly I think it's more about quantity time but if you're actually engaged with them whatever it is you're doing you're spending quality and quantity time with them the Catholic current 5:00 p.m. Eastern from the Station of the Cross and on the I Catholic radio mobile [Music] app please join us in a prayer to St Anthony of peda in the name of the father and of the son and of the holy spirit amen oh dear protector St Anthony on this day we direct our fervent prayer to you asking you to hear us and to intercede for us we are parents who ask for peace in our families our worthy occupations and our daily bread we are children who ask for divine assistance and protection in the hope of a successful and happy future we are the needy poor The Afflicted and sinners who come to you for help and Grace therefore speak on our behalf to that child whom you hold in your arms and we are sure of being heard [Music] amen Catholic radio has just been a lifesaver for me I still listen to it every day I start my day with it I listen to it all day long as much as I can I am very grateful for it it's just an amazing thing to have as I am new to Catholicism obviously it's not only helping me but it's helping so many other people on their walk thank you God bless you for I Catholic radio it has changed my life donate today at the stof theeccentricm [Music] [Music] uh I greatly encourage you to get this book and to share it you can go to Sophia institute.com that's Sophi institute.com one other clip I I want to sneak in here is uh this is from an interview I I actually conducted with Archbishop nowman um back in January 2019 and asked him about um former Governor um Kathleen sailus um and um and about um what he did there in terms of um enforcing or or somewhat enforc in somewhat obeying Canon 9915 and that's why I want to bring it up because it seemed a bit incomplete in terms of what Archbishop nowman was saying here um good in in about half of what Canon 9915 is saying but then the other bit about um you know actually withholding Holy Communion he he he wasn't comfortable with that or he didn't want to do that um he basically just wanted to I guess reinforce Canon 916 and and make sure that she OD not to present herself um but at the same time not saying that anybody should actually not administer Holy Communion to her here it is and you share with us any wisdom that you gained from your experience dealing with Kathleen cilius and where you currently stand on applying Canon 9:15 of the Catholic Church's code of canon law which states that those obstinately persevering and manifest grave sin are not to be admitted to Holy Communion yeah well I you know I think it's part of The Bishop's responsibility to have conversations with those in public life about the issues uh that are not just Catholic issues but they're human rights issues and particularly for Catholics serving in public life I think we have a responsibility to uh to engage in conversations with them and if we have a Catholic in public office who's who's um going against acting against the very these core moral teachings that then I think we have to have a very serious dialogue with them that's what we did with uh former governor selus and I met with her over many months um I told her at one point you know you know I someday she was going to be before the Lord and that I hope that uh she was going to be able to present something better than her record in terms of of how she had supported abortion and I said but someday I'm going to have to go before the Lord and if you if you're there first and say well he never told me about this then I'm in trouble so I'm not comfortable with that so I wanted to make sure that she knew um at some point where uh it seemed like uh the the conversation we both knew each other's position there wasn't any movement I I my Approach was to tell her Governor don't present yourself for the Eucharist because it's a scandal and um when she didn't honor that in one particular instance then I made it public that I had requested that she not do this to me I I think that's more effective I don't want to put our priest and our communion ministers in this uh this position where they're having to evaluate should I give this person communion or not I think we need to put the burden on them but I think we have to be clear uh about that all right so there's Archbishop naom on this topic and again a lot of that is uh mostly very good um and you know we want to be nice here but at the same time we've got to be honest and the fact is that uh it does not actually though obey what Canon 915 says he did everything in the process very well but Canon 915 is very clear it says that um the penalty that that others um well it says about those excommunicated or interdicted after the imposition or Declaration of the penalty uh and then it says others obstinately persevering and manifest grave sin that's what we're talking about with former Governor silius are not to be admitted to Holy Communion so he wasn't comfortable with that aspect of Canon 9:15 nevertheless there it is explicitly clear in the Canon um it doesn't seem to me that it's something that he can just ignore at at will it seems to me that there is an obligation to enforce this to obey what the actual Canon says miss your thoughts well as we were talking I I was looking through the book here and I just I found a sentence that I think addresses that this is taken from um an encyclical written by Pope St John Paul II and this is just again Cardinal Burke included it here but this is John Paul II saying there is no responsibility of the church's Shepherds show Shepherds means the Bishops which is greater than that of teaching the truth about the Holy you Eucharist celebrating worthily the Holy Eucharist and directing the flock in the worship and care of the Most Blessed sacraments so he's saying there's no nothing more important from a from a Shepherd well that goes you know completely with um what Canon 9:15 says and you know if the person after this long discussion and it's public again that's the difference see people this is rare you know that you have public and that's why it does fall on politicians a lot why because they're public figures I mean if someone has a mortal sin on their soul and they go up for communion no one's standing there like a policeman we're not policemen at the Eucharistic rail in interviewing people before because yes like Archbishop nman said that's on the conscience we should if we have a well formed conscience as a Catholic you know if I committed a mortal sin God forbid I did something it it happens we're all weak we all sin it can happened you can go to church but you don't present yourself to Holy Communion until you've gone to confession and you know got back in the good grace of God so these are public people who are doing this that's why when they they make it public in fact I like to use the word they are the ones a a politician who talks about abortion and then makes it a point to go there they I would say if anyone is I don't like the term but they are weaponizing it because they're using that to to promote you know their cause like I'm in good I'm a good guy I'm in good standing I go to church I you know I believe you know I walk up the same aisle with you I receive Holy Communion and that's very dishonest with those people and that's what I would say is you know it was interesting a very high ranking official in the government back when Cardin Burke was was the Archbishop of St Louis um asked to visit with him in Washington and he asked Cardinal Burke during that the the the that election issue he said you know John Paul II's getting old and fragile now and I know he's been very outspoken on pro-life but if when he dies can a can a future Pope change the church's position on abortion and caral Brook said no of course you know no that that that's a issue of doctr why why would you even why would you ask because the person was a Protestant and this person said well because I I I see other politicians here that I know and they records are pro-abortion and you know other things and then they go to church uh on on Sundays or even during the week There's a St Patrick's is close to the capital or and and I I it just left me so that was a point that's the kind of Scandal it would give there and that's what a priest a bishop has an obligation to clarify they the P the politician or the you know it could be someone who's doing something else not not to make it all political they are the ones that are making the Scandal very well said and yeah I would say that this book respecting the body and blood of the Lord by Cardinal Burke uh this ought to be mandatory reading in every Seminary priests every priest ought to be very well-versed in this I think the extraordinary um the abuse of extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion causes a greater difficulty here in enforcing this those are only they're only supposed to be used um in special situations sadly that loophole has been exploited they become the norm in most parishes um but this is something that everyone who's administering Holy Communion they ought to be extremely well versed in this for sure and I love the conclusion here what it says uh right here it says that the discipline must be applied in order to avoid serious Scandal for example the erroneous acceptance of procured abortion against the constant teaching of the moral law no matter how often a bishop or priest repeats the teaching of the church regarding procured abortion if he stands by and does nothing to discipline a Catholic who publicly reports legislation permitting the gravest of injustices and at the same time presents himself to receive holy communion then his teaching Rings Hollow to remain silent is to permit serious confusion regarding a fundamental truth of the moral law confusion of course is one of the most Insidious fruits of scandalous behavior and then it says surely the discipline has never been easy to apply but what is at stake for the church demands the wisdom and courage of shepherds who will apply it again respecting the body and blood of the Lord by Cardinal Burks Sophia institute.com Sophia institute.com God bless you [Music]