AI Horizons: The AI-Savvy Leader – AI at Wharton

okay um I think it's time to start welcome everybody to the last AI Horizons webinar before the summer break my name is stonton I'm a professor of marketing at the Wharton School and the co-director of AI at Wharton together with me we have also Mary perk who is executive director of AI at Wharton and today we are delighted to um host a very interesting person um and I'm delighted that David the Kramer could be here with us today uh we'll have a brief introduction after that we'll have David give a brief uh presentation before a conversation and Q&A to wrap up the hour um to introduce our today's guest David the Kramer is a dean of Dora McKim School of Business at Northeastern University in Boston where he's also Professor management and Technology David is one of the most prolific behavioral scientist of his generation and a thought leader in the area of leadership in recent years he focused his attention to the topic of AI and digital transformation where integrates insights from social psychology behavioral economics and computer science David has published several popular books I especially recommend to this audience his book U leadership by algorithm who leads and who follows in the AI era and his newest book the AI Savvy leader nine ways to Take Back Control and make a AI work is published by Harvard Business Review press and it is coming out on June 18 so this webinar comes just before the big launch and I'm delighted we could get an early view of of this new new work um David and I go a long way back in fact we were colleagues um couple of decades ago at the Ron School of manag at arasmus University in the Netherlands and since then he has had many exciting appointments and adventure in Singapore in Cambridge England and now in the United States um I joined W only two years ago so somehow we found again on the East Seaboard after a long time being um many miles away and anyway it's a pleasure to have David and one reason why I'm excited is just he thought Le leadership in the area is outstanding and so I think it's always exciting to hear from someone like him um but personally I'm very excited about this webinar because David and I share the same general approach in that we both take a Behavioral Science approach to the topic of artificial intelligence which is not something that we tend to see so often where the topic is typically tackled as a technical uh topic Although our work is quite different we both came to the same big conclusion which is that companies fail to extract value from Advanced analytics because of a disconnect between decision making and um the analysis the algorithms and the AI they this webinar is about your book but allow me to shamelessly plug my book which came out two weeks ago it's called decision-driven analytics and makes this point about how do we make decisions with data the integration of human and artificial intelligence okay the plan for today is the following uh we'll start with a presentation from David highlighting the main insights from the book then we'll have a conversation before opening up the discussion with the Q&A so make sure to ask your questions in the Q&A and we'll try to go through as many as possible later we'll try to end on the DOTA 1 pm okay that's it let's uh um get ready for the uh presentation and uh David thank you so much for being here uh the floor is yours okay thank thank you so much for having me Stefano and for the introduction and I was going to refer to your book as well in the short introduction because indeed as Stefano said U we share a behavioral approach here and we like to look at AI as a value creator for organizations for business in general but it's humans first so that means can people adjust to the AI and can create value with it and in that process I'm looking at what leaders can do for their organizations to make sure that AI can create that value they were all hoping for so I just want to have a brief introduction of what the book is about and then Stefano and I will talk a little bit more hopefully you come up with some exciting questions as well so just dive in deeply most people ask me why did you write a book about the ai7 leader is it needed why is it needed and what's your personal story behind it and I always answer the why of my book is because I see that people are struggling we're all Business School Scholars I'm a dean of a business school I have to think about how do we educate our Future Leaders we have a vision about okay what how responsibly can our Business Leaders act in Tech driven environments of course those are very strong motivations for me to look at what is really happening in organizations so I'm looking at the adoption process of AI when it comes into an organization and looking at can it create value now I listen to what I hear when I teach I have a lot of Executives over the years who said in their 50s shouldn't I become a coder I always say no I mean your leadership experience is crucial here and I will explain why this is the case in my consultancy work as well I always see when consultancy companies present about AI opportunities to companies there's a lot of Technology involved there's a lot of jargon that most business people Executives don't understand and at the end of the conversation at the end of the PowerPoint presentation usually you'll see a slide oh yeah culture matters as well just so make sure that the culture is ready that the people are ready to embrace it and I just see most Executives have already dazed out and that's the most important Point are you ready to embrace AI do you understand AI do you know why you want to use AI but that's usually at the end of their presentation at the same time what we see is Business Leaders of course are under pressure because we all know AI is coming it's already here it's going to change everything the gurus say there some right now will say it's overhyped we're expecting too much from it too fast maybe is it we don't even know what we can expect but everyone has an opinion and that presents a pressure to organizations and to Business Leaders who are not very Savvy that they don't understand and know what to expect with respect to their organization so I call this they end up in a situation of an existential crisis almost there's such a sense of urgency it has to happen quickly else you lose your Competitive Edge there's a fear of missing out that there's no thinking about it I always say for any industry you should ask the first question is what do you want to achieve in that industry and can AI help yes or no because sometimes it won't even be able to help so we end up in a situation that I've always seen is we are asking our Business Leaders to bring in a technology AI that they actually don't understand but we ask them at the same time to ad adapt to it it's an extremely difficult balancing act so from a business point of view my message in this book really is in business AI is not just a big next big opportunity it is a value Creator it's a tool but it's in fact the next great leadership challenge and that's what I dive into with these nine ways so again like I said my observations have led to see in many companies that many digital transformation projects first of all fail it's very difficult to upscale AI projects when we ask about do you use AI most companies will say yes but robotic processing automation is not really AI because there's no smart machine there it's not about intelligence so there's a lot of confusion surveys are not representing the real values the real State ofth art right now so a lot is failing but the one thing that I always see is that usually the whole AI adoption process the responsibility has been de related from day one to Tech experts are they trained as business experts no where are the business experts the leaders they sideline they're observing they have fear they know the pressure is there like I said but there's a very strong belief AI is primary because this is changing everything and I call this the in my book The Myth of Technology driving technology transformation it's the tech experts who are expected to create value with it but we have a problem here it's not about hyper automation and automate tasks and as as such jobs will will be disappearing because jobs are additions of tasks but jobs are also much more jobs are also about leading about creating value for different stakeholders having a certain culture there and because Business Leaders are not there I see the biggest challenge is most of the budget is spent on acquiring the AI and then treating it as complet simply a stch only whereas the biggest challenge is how can you make humans work with it it's actually change management project already how can you reduce resistance to it how can you elevate their understanding of it and most importantly how can you persuade your Workforce and make them see that AI is valuable in what it is that we're trying to achieve at the organization for all of our stakeholders so for me AI adoption and this is the behavioral approach that uh Stefan was referring to earlier it's about humans first and second and leaders play an extremely important role in it because organizations need first of all to drive cultural change to get all the teams on board and that's what leaders do they facilitate they create the right conditions but leaders also in that process need to act as a mediator and a facilitator in the human AI interaction so it's not simply about automation here it's really about can your Workforce work with AI to create value and as a leader you need to create conditions the facilitator but you also need to make sure that the psychology involved the social dynamics of resistance acceptance being savy enough to use it that you are a mediator there and that makes that we have to require certain skills from leaders today Peter drer said once the best way to predict the future is to create it and I think this really applies today to the role that Business Leaders can play in the process of AI adoption like I said Business Leaders need to create the conditions for AI adoption as the future to succeed so the in my book what I make the point that I make is that the biggest task for leaders what it is that we require from them in this AI era is that they can align AI comprehension with organization purpose AI comprehension meaning do you understand AI in light of the responsibilities that you have and what you need to achieve and can you align it with what the organization stands for the service the value it creates for its stakeholders and what its ultimate purposes so you see business value and Technology value so hence the title of my book the AI s leader nine ways to Take Back Control and make AI work the AI s leader refers to the AI comprehension part the N nine ways referred to the ways leaders should work to achieve that organization purpose and to bring both together okay now let's look at the AI sess part so I'm just going to summarize I'm not going to give any specific details or or uh funny examples here I I could we can talk more about that later but what does ai7 is really um mean here well I think what the level that a business leader or an executive should achieve is really understanding what is artificial intelligence what is human intelligence because I'm stressing this because they're not the same too many times in the media you'll see we're directly comparing them but it's the same as comparing apples and oranges they're not the same so what is it to acquire uh an ai7 leader is it just mere coding expertise no I think ai7 is transcends that mere coding expertise of course you need to understand the role of data all AI relies on data and statistics because most of them are probabilistic there's predictive model we're trying to predict something at the same time learning there is stats involved there's data involved it's predictive today we also have generative it creates something but still the human is very important there because the human defines a problem and the human interprets what is generated in terms of content I always say our role today in education especially is you can use Jud CPT in the class and that's the content but we are in the in the business today from content to knowledge generation and for a company is the same thing but what has been generated how do you use it to create value at the same time be aware of the unique skills of humans what is it that humans can do what is it that AI doesn't do one of my favorite examples that I'll elaborate on in the book is really that a human is an active participant of the reality that we're facing whereas an AI isn't just a quick example some of you may have seen a picture of a a lighthouse Tower four meters wide four and a half meters wide cow hat sticking out on one hand and the the the back of a cow and the other hand and the AI is being asked how long is the cow and thei says it's there's one cow 5.4 M of course all of you know now it's probably two cows because it doesn't exist it's it's a great example of showing that's not if you're not part of a situation merged into a situation understanding culture and Norms that's something that we have that AI doesn't have so it's that kind of understanding of what is AI versus a human uh intelligence that I believe is really the ai7 is that they need because there they can see what is it that the workforce needs and what is it that AI can bring in and at the same time Business Leaders will understand it's about augmentation and not simply about automation so AI sist can help leadership here in understanding first of all their responsibilities as a business leader ah this is what this is the workforce humans first and this is where AI can help in elevating this is where AI can help that a human can't and this is where I probably don't need AI you understand your responsibilities in being the facilitator mediator but also if you are AI sevy enough you can have the role of a narrator and why is that important you have the business expertise but try to make that clear to a tech expert so you need to have some narrative there that the tech expert can understand this is the business problem that needs to be addressed this is where you think AI can help make that clear to the Tech expert and then the delegation happens because the tech expert will deal with the execution of Technology same as Stefano's book basically you make decisions if you say oh we have data and as an executive you say oh let me tell me what is in the data and that will drive my vision no you need to still ask the question and you need to make it clear as well to to take experts do we have the right kind of data then that they can decide how do they analyze it how do they look at it it's an interplay there however it rarely happens I see it quite often that when I talk to cdos data scientists they all sh they're all eager to show their new stuff it's all very impressive but you see every time again that Business Leaders during that meeting say nothing and afterwards they ask me yeah is is is is this stuff working I mean what does it reveal I mean I have no clue so they they don't even communicate so that's how ai7 is can help leadership that's the first part the second part like I said is how do leaders Act and an important question that I usually get is hey David okay I I I read about AI I learn about ai7 is I see the levels that I could learn about is supervised nonsupervised what does uh do do con conversational large language models mean but don't we have to reinvent leadership because it's AI is going to change everything it's all about AI again I don't believe that I think the biggest Insight here is that leadership behaviors that have been successful in the past are also going to be successful today but in a different relationship leaders now in a relationship with AI as part of the workforce so today leaders will still show important leadership behaviors that we've identified in the past but you will be judged upon whether you are able to create value with AI as part of the workforce that's an addition but for example vision is still going to be important like I said here AI adoption cannot be delegated as I've already shown Executives must take ownership to ensure a success for example when Stefano in consum B would say you ask the right kind of questions well that's leadership responsibility that's the ownership that you have but you have the sness to say AI needs to be brought in here and and then I can delegate it but ultimately you're responsible for it because people need to start working with it once the tech has been implemented so I'm just going to give a few examples of what are the leadership behaviors that we know about are actually still relevant but how we're going to use it in relationship to creating value with AI so first thing I just published in the last or this issue of Harvard Business Review magazine the May uh June issue an article on inclusive AI adoption and that's a refle that's an example basically of how leadership can make sure that employees are not alienated are part of the process and that is what makes that AI adoption will be successful for example being the narrator here being AI sevy understanding the business problems and can translated you're you're in the job of eliminating silos between Tech experts and business experts you're in the job of promoting collaboration between different departments make sure that data are shared inter personal skills that we've always always seen as important communication I've already referred to it you become the narrator Business Leaders today have to become that narrator so we need flat communication uh hierarchies where feedback can circulate quickly because don't forget implementing an AI an AI model is not perfect from the first run onwards yes it can be trained already on data but it needs to be trained in complex as well which is your organization so you need feedback loops very quickly flat communication Aries this also means that as a leader you need to be able to create trust and even psychological safety you could say where people are willing to share that information ask questions accept failures have been made with AI and how can we quickly respond to that leaders also need to be Visionary because they need to make it meaningful AI needs to become part of your vision and Mission so people understand why it is that this new cowork work is brought in and importantly it cannot simply be said yes because it's going to give us more profit I truly believe if you have a behavior centered approach to AI you need to be able to communicate the holistic value of it AI is not simply here and and I also believe that this was the reason why in 1956 the first time that AI was coined as a notion and in the 60s the idea was there to help Humanity that was very clear so that holistic values in line with that it's about indeed increasing efficiency in productivity but it has also arranged towards other internal intrinsic motivations of people well-being satisfaction at work sustainability for the organization ethics these also need to be taken care of and finally one thing that I really uh care about is that your leadership is truly human centered too often I see tech companies today use the last two years they've started to use the norm oh but RI human centered and yes the logic is very simple the an user is a human so our product is human- centered but what is implicit in that assumption is because they start from AI first we will ask the human to adapt to how the computer works a truly human centered perspective via leadership in my view is a behavioral one which means that we need to design develop AI in ways that accounts for biases and habits and trends of human behavior so that basically humans we lower the threshold to resist we make that people can trust it easier that it feels more intuitive which enhances their collaboration and I see this quite often when CTO they employ algorithms to assess quality of marketing reports or Outreach or whatever evaluation and humans are being assessed and evaluated and monitored in ways that are very consistent but almost like computer likee and this is where we R creativity actually at the end of the day because creativity for a human is not simply being consistent and create and creating the same ideas every hour and the same number of ideas hour by hour humans are inconsistent I call this reflective procrastination sometimes the most creative most innovative ideas happen after a mo after some time where you've you may have worked less where your work Rhythm was Disturbed but then the idea arrives so of course you can imagine if people are being asked to work like this resistance is much higher also so the code of AI adoption should be suitably tweaked for The Human Condition to pick up these things finally so to repeat what I just wanted to make clear a few points is the i7 leader the way I presented in my book has a focus on the human reactions to AI so it's truly human centered it's involving the change management it's making clear the acceptance is there so value can be created it means also that leaders today are being evaluated in how can they make their Workforce motivated to create value with AI which means you need to be a narrator that brings business and Tech experts together and importantly the AI era today doesn't require a completely new type of leader these behaviors are important still but we need to see how to align it and this goes back to AI understanding alignment with organizational purpose purpose so that it can works together and finally being a behavioral human centered uh scientist towards AI doesn't mean that I'm not an AI Optimist yes it's amazing but I truly believe that AI optimism should actually almost equal Humanity optimism as well if we use AI correctly and understand its role and position towards humans okay so that was a little bit my introduction thank you David and um we are back in the conversation it's been really interesting to hear you highlight the uh the key point of the book and I completely agree with you that a conversation about leadership is too often missing from the discussions around thei and I think that is really very much for the detriment of uh organizations even if you take a tech um kind of like Focus I think it is crucial to realize that it is not going to work until it is functional to the vision and objective of the company I want to invite everybody to post questions in the Q&A section here on zoom and they we will pick them up in just a few minutes I give you a bit more time uh to ask those questions in the meantime I do have a couple of things I wanted to run by David I'm just curious to think what you think about this you highlight how AI is a change management essentially process you have to embed this new form of alien intelligence into workflows and functions and business processes so you know it's a as much a Tech Challenge as it is an organizational change Challenge and I um I see that totally in my interaction with companies but I also see um that maybe compared to other change management examples this is one where you have an enormous amount of uncertainty about both where this is going the capabilities is acquiring and how fast this will happen but also the way that this cap capabilities can be used to achieve business objectives so um I think there is as much of Lear learning process as a change management process so can you can you tell me a little bit about how do you think organizations should scope out the range of activities that they may um prioritize for AI engagement deployment but also how do we go about learning about this what it can do well what doesn't work and how do we add AI such that augments uh human expertise rather than replace it what are your take from that uh I think it's a great question um and it relates to what I said actually the big challenge that I see for Business Leaders is they have to bring in something that they're they're afraid of they don't understand completely and at the same time they already have to adapt to it so where's the learning stage where is the the room for learning uh and that is what is a problem because this it's the fear of missing out you you've seen the fomo companies don't create that room so that's a problem in itself already of course as a business school dean I can easily say as well lifelong learning that's the first point is key here here I think because we're facing something here that is yes we've seen technology before and I do believe like all the other IT solutions and Innovations it will be a J curve so you can't plug in AI just like and expect immediate value same thing for AI with any other technology so there will be a curve where we have to experiment get feedback and learn and make that work companies right now because of the fear of sense of urgency because the biggest risk is not using AI today are not creating that room that's that's we're making the same mistake again on the other hand AI is also a completely different animal I think as anything before because there's an existential thing there first we Outsource our body you would say like okay cars can drive us now we're Outsourcing our cognition so if body and mind in line with the carts is gone what's left of us I mean do we have a future even so those are existential concerns that I think can also and have to also be rest in terms of education for leaders that is the vision and the mission making it meaningful now for leaders themselves to learn like like I said lifelong learning companies need to create that those opportunities so that can be done in house they can be done in collaboration with Business Schools as we know that can be done in collaboration with Consultants so yes part of your budget needs to go there because I think it's also a budgeting issue Stefano as you know most companies they will because they basically aren't prepared the way I just described it 70 to 80% of their budget goes to the adoption itself but then actually and that leads to Automation and they say oh we understand augmentation but augmentation is actually more expensive because you need to train coach your people you need to prepare the infrastructure you need to lower the thresholds and that requires much more money but most of their budget has been spent already so this is an important learning point yes most of your money will have to go to preparation and learning and it is a like I said with the communication Cycles flat communication it's a feedback issue it's the same thing as with when a plane arrives it's full of data let's say there's a problem with with those data you can't afford to S to to sit on those data and that he goes through the bureaucracy and at the three months later it goes to the top of the company and then you know hey there's a problem with the plane well if that happens you're out of business and we may see this with some of these companies but that industry can't work like this and the m m is actually every industry has to start working like this you it needs to be out there quickly discussed and room same thing with learning for example how do you use AI responsibly governance you see many companies what they're introducing is okay can we have ethics Champions can we have governance Champions can we have can we have um offices where people can check what are the latest how do we do this unfortunately we see with the tech developers they go the other way they throw the these people out now but unfortunately uh unfortunately but for companies they know they start they need to start investing in it so yes this is ex definitely a trend make sure you have your budget make sure the awareness is there as a leader keep promoting lifelong learn I have another question and then what I want to do is to leave it open I will pick questions from uh from the audience and I I think I'm really I think what we were talking about now is crucial I think that basically it's not about the technology and what the technology does for the business and we have to figure it out and it should be about augmentation um mod replacement although there will be some replacement of course too in some domains but that's not where the big gains are to be had and in a way I think the issue is often that it is difficult to for us to think beyond what is in our view so we can see the things that we doing today and then everybody thinking about use cases and when you think about use cases what they do is basically to think about ways in which we can keep doing what we were doing before but just do it faster better cheaper um whatever and so that's the way that people think about productivity in improvements efficiency improvements the big thing can we shave something off here can we automate a little bit of that there save a little bit of money here make it a bit faster there maybe better for the customer sometimes but it's all within the framework of what it is that we are currently doing and I think the really exciting part is actually a different one which is what is it that we could be doing now that we never could before and that's an hard question to ask because we don't know what it is that we W doing there's million thing infinite so but to me that's what's really inspiring and exciting is how do we I mean how do we you know have a vision for a future that is different that can be now powered and enabled by AI do you have any suggestion for for a leader who wants to do that who is not just saying how do I save some money how do I make my people a little bit more productive using I incurrent workflows but say hey there's a whole wi space available here things that we could do that would be amazing for our customers or our stakeholders and we are not even thinking about it well I mean again it's a great question um and but of course you do know we're talking leadership has different levels I mean it starts at the tone of the top I mean it's really the top that has to push this idea because most of us are being pushed by cost cutting and that's why AI is seen as the perfect uh value creator of course because we see the value immediately of oh yeah we automate we don't have to pay a salary we don't have to pay a retirement in the retirement fund AI doesn't get sick but if you really poke so I talk a lot with boards and boards are of course a little bit of a problem because most of them really don't understand anything about it but they need to govern our companies so that's really something that we need to start targeting that they're more Ai sevy and promote that kind of thinking that you're saying do we have the new do we we have the right kind of leaders in in the companies that we are governing that so that they can Elevate basically the organization in a holistic way as I said and use AI for that um so yeah they need to get out of this but when I talk to boards they will say well yes yes we need to augment but then when you poke a little bit deeper they will say I don't understand augmentation actually really and that's to that's because of what you're saying because they say like what am I really augmenting and to what purpose so because of course much of it is short-term focused so what you're saying is visionary and is long-term focused and that makes it very uncertain especially because AI in itself makes the whole business uncertain that is really the sentiment that you're that you're facing right now and that's why I'm saying needs to be at the at the top now can you change this yes I truly believe this because I think ultimately the goal again is AI is there to enhance human intelligence so it's to make us work more efficiently yes but also create a better world so you see this is a discussion that's descriptive versus normative in my view because most people will say in business yeah but this is the way it is now we there's no way back okay that's one way of looking at it and I understand what you're saying but there's also another way you still have a choice to make we created AI we can Define its purpose so going back much of it is also how you want to Define and ask the question of what AI brings to the company again why it's so important that thep really invests time in not simply oh yeah we're Tech driven now also has a value and I just put AI in the existing vision statement No the people need to see that you're changing their vision and that mission based on what it is that AI exactly is going to bring in people are going to ask precise definitions they want to see user cases they want to understand what is it that you want us to achieve because that uncertainty is so high it relates actually to your learning point there as well but it also needs to install if you really want to be truly human centered at the same time that you reward Still Human Performance let me give you an example very quickly with Gen AI a lot of us a lot of in the corporate world are thinking you know what if it helps you to be more creative or come up with more ideas or more ppts like the bus and Consulting study well that's fine but do I still have to pay you the same amount probably not if it's just Cost cutting now what is interesting is there is a human tendency there so our own research shows when you have full-time employees top managers don't want to push down their salary even if AI will do most of their job if you're have part-time employees or just in the gig economy oh that their salaries can go down if AI is being used more so we we're so we're still in a situation where most of our organizations will say Okay um we're just adding it to so and the reason why I'm stressing this is that they're also actually disappointed because of course I'm not going to lower your salary but this AI thing is actually more expensive because you're you're adding costs now yeah because they don't have a vision got so and that's part of the disappointment because people don't have the kind of road map that they need to have in order to understand when and what they supposed to happen yeah yeah yeah um I I wanted we have a lot of questions so I I do have my own question also but I think we should listen to the audience so I'm going to pick a few and I start with one from John that I I think an interesting perspective more like historical thing was asking um are there learning opportunities from past technology adoption that can be useful to consider in future leadership challenges what can we learn from the past we've gone through many waves of Automation and Technology introduction and deployment what do you think we can learn from the past again it's a great question question and it I ran into some data the last uh last week actually so I was looking at I mean one of the premises is hey we bring in AI now with Gen AI even more we can generate Innovation is going to go up Innovation is a competitive feature our organization can benefit become more competitive and distinguish yourselves so it's a given for most people in business AI is related to Innovation now of course this is the whole me whole message of my book well yeah without the leadership and the facilitation and the mediation it's not going to happen of course so but it can it can now if you look back at the last 40 years in terms of a Technology Innovation it's always been said and this is not unique to AI because today will be said AI will will increase your productivity efficiency enhance Innovation now if we look at it in with any technology literally any technology in the last four years the the increasing productivity has never been really steep as we predicting it with AI and I don't expect it to be here either so this is something that businesses really need to start realizing part of the answer here is why of the why question is because of what I described because it's not an immediate it's not plug and play with immediate value it's a J curve so you need your leadership there the other thing is we we have a lot of predictions about the economic value it will increase GDP with so much percentage blah blah blah but if you look at it real data out there don't show that much economic value yet now let's say we still will have that economic value let's say it goes up to four five% well it's going to go down with 2 3% again you know why because AI is also used for Crime it will lose we will lose money so it's not so straightforward and those are the user cases from the past that we need to bring in in our business education also for you Stefano and for myself that we show this like look this inter play happened and ultimately this was the increase now what does this mean for you now you're going to work with AI related to the predictions you're making for your organization and account for it for those past data I think there is an interesting parallel with the with the discussion you were bringing up earlier about augmentation because if uh if you listen to for example donon aogo from MIT he argues that basically the projections of productivity increase um that would be required through AI are never going to happen just by increasing the efficiency of existing processes basically you need to have human augmentation for any of the scenarios that people are P you know advertising the benefit of AI to work out so and that points out to another one again yes as a leader of course it cannot only be topped down here this is also like what is it that people are experiencing on the job because those are the ones who are so for example in financial industry I wrote a lot about it you may remember when the financial crisis was there I wrote about the psychology of financial crisis so I see the same thing in Banks what happened then and now in companies with AI back then he was like oh look I mean I don't need to tell the people who deal with the customers who opening an account that they understand completely the vision and mission of our bank and what it is with the values and why and how we just need there's governance and they need to fill out the paperwork and I always said like why not those are the people who make it meaningful to your customers same thing here the one on who work with AI the ones are providing customer service with and the bot doesn't work they need to be involved because again it's a simple business principle the way I I see it is the challenge is really to have a very wise integration of bottom down and uh so top down and bottom up processes where people on the shop floor are adopting the instruments to make a difference in their work and at the same time you have a vision you have a strategy that disseminates through the organization I think finding the balance between the two is not going to cannot be only top town obviously um so let me go to our next question I'm going to try to integrate questions here because there are so many of them and I see a few actually for from Len and Steve in the Q&A sections which are about really kind of um almost pychological threats or or um adoption issues you see some people are Gango about this they had the chbt Plus Account as soon as you open you know people like like that and there are many others who are reluctant they understand it's important but they don't um actually you know understand much of what he actually does we haven't had Direct Time experience um so Len is pointing out to a generational divide which we also find in our data we find in some um survey data that gen adoption Falls a bit off the cliff um after age of 45 so there is bit that element with the maybe Millennials of digital natives being maybe better position to jump on this although I I I don't know exactly I think it takes a lot of domain expertise to deploy this technology so experience is actually important Steve instead mentioned that basically you have clients and people who are um basically threatened by this and they um you know maybe it's a bit bit of fear or about their own positions about competitive um Dynamics and stuff like that so what what what are your take how do you bring people on board how do you make it safe to experiment and learn how do you make them less threatening to to a lot of the people yeah yeah again these are all questions indeed I can hear across Industries so not first important lesson it's not just for one industry every industry is suffering with it um so with respect to generational differences if I can start there uh it's a real issue but it's not only with AI it's also for example we know Generations nowadays uh the young gener they're very purpose-driven so they will call out CEOs they will email CEOs directly and say hey your values are these but I didn't see you show that behavior so they're very direct in their communication same thing with with technology and as a leader this can be very frightening because if you look at again I refer to boards earlier they have no I mean they were trained when they went to business school there was nothing no reference to sustainability to AI there was nothing so I mean not only they they get all these youngsters as well throwing this at them and you see that there are actually situations being created that are dangerous like especially for example in the financial industry where more than 50% of the C don't want their people to use gen AI now what happens you have younger people there of course they know much better they're still using it but you do you just don't know that they're using it because they fail at two things the the older generation they don't understand it very well and the second thing is they're not trained as Leaders really to create that kind of psychological safety that we said where you experiment learn which is crucial for AI just because we need to feedback to update and optimize our AI models so of course and that is a crisis that is coming and we really need to do something about that so that's true that's why we were referring earlier already to the not only top down but also bottom up that that that involvement needs to be there definitely of course I understand as well in financial industry I see some people are asking questions about this is about the governance the Privacy this is an industry where your data need to be protected so you can't just bring it in again but that again stresses the importance of being transparent and open and being strong savy enough as a leader that you have a narrative to be able to say this is the problem and we're creating this kind of governance um directory being supported by our resources in terms of bringing this in and the knowledge to all of our employees but also to our clients how we're going to work information learning again your earlier point so that needs to be done the leaders need to be trained like this um with respect to the other question yeah the fear uh the overhyping actually is said are there any strategies well again that goes back to my early Point as well AI sess I think it's not it goes beyond just becoming it transend mere coding expertise still most executive students in my class will say I need to become a coder because that's how they look at it because that's related to AI as automation I need to learn how to implement and that's it AI first still no the it's transen it because AI is here to serve basically now you need to understand what it is that he can bring and what he can't bring like the example I gave it's not an active participant which has extreme implications for how you manage something like this feedback how you say what what kind of because it's predictive value it's probabilistic what does this mean in terms of making your decisions it's still up to you you can delegate that responsibility so if you have that ai7 is in your company you can make it more realistic and put it back in the context and reality of hey we again a human- centered approach can really make hey this is what what we can use it for which means don't be disappointed yes we're still here for humans and AI is helping us but will jobs disappear yes the more you automate tasks a job ultimately will go but this is where the big challenge is and I'm going to use Singapore now which is not the same place as the US of course but what was what is happening in Singapore because I work closely with because at my AI Center there is they invest a lot in digital upskilling for their population their workers government pays for it okay you get these credits it go out go out um but they say like if you don't upskill yourself you're gone you're a goner so they're very much on automation this is also their rule-based compli very much so the augmenting value is not necessarily achieved there and you see that people mainly have fear fear of losing a job rather than seeing the opportunity and this has led to a governance that would be impossible in the US so I think we have a lot of potential here when we say we're optimistic and we're willing to take a risk well try to be willing to take a risk also on your people more that they can be they're the ones so that means we need Investments we talk a lot about the jobs of the future in the meantime what I see happening is yes jobs are disappearing because we automate parts of the job but what I don't see is enormous investments in really have having these jobs happen already because to your point people don't even know what is going to happen but we do talk about the jobs of the future hence we end up with yes jobs are going to disappear just like always but there's going to be job new jobs being created well my point is please start creating them already and that's the augmentation Paradigm and that's the feed that you need it really goes into this idea we discussing augmentation creating new tasks versus finding efficiency in existing tasks and in a way with every technology Revolution people are scared because they know the threats to the current jobs is just that we don't know the shapes on the horizon you know what is going to come we know that new jobs will be created and in the past you know many new jobs were created better job were created than the ones we lost that doesn't have to always be true of course but I think there is a hope that many many new jobs will be created but we need a vision for what else can we do you know how do we augment the human expertise and human and we need to create again that room where we learn from it what works and what doesn't work because again don't forget AI I mean for everyone here the thing if a guru says everything's going to change or you see some of the CEOs I mean you know it's almost like there's a r race now also among CEOs when they appear publicly to make the most grotesque over half statement oh no no no I'm going to do one better you're all going to be gone tomorrow not next week but tomorrow and blah blah blah or ice well that I mean they want investors but it doesn't help I mean it's not realistic and this is the point where I think still Business Schools like ours can help for having that education I know Wharton is pursuing that strategy um our school is doing the same with AI and data strategy more business schools are joining in that we have to educate the business Business Leaders there not not the top CEOs of all the tech companies the five or seven companies that dominate everything but really business across Industries it's extremely use important I have a question I want to ask it's from Sparky and I ask it because I read your previous book um leadership by algorithm and I I want to hear your answer on this because basically that's pretty much what the book is about and the question is this um what are what are you seeing as on emerging capabilities for AI to manage people the New York Times recently talked about the potential for an AI CEO where will AI play a helpful role in leading people and where might it fall still fall short well yes I mean and if I may say yes I I read that article as well and I know many and for example in Asia so one thing you need to know about Asia is they're not afraid of experimenting they throw AI right away in things even if it's not tested well they'll just do it in society of course there's a different hierarchal culture there but what you see is you literally have these AI CEOs already and they were they they're alive in meta but they're also but the belief there is truly that an AI is most rational most objective most accurate even if it's biased sometimes it's less biased than us some if it starts learning especially if Elon Musk says next year we have General artificial general intelligence so they truly believe that and they are they're throwing it in already so it's already happening same thing as real globalization is happening a Ico is already happening now I do think that we need to spend some more time on this because uh as Stefano knows I made a very clear distinction between management and Leadership look management today every most people here are ma we actually have a management title 60 to 70% of your job involves data management or ticking boxes or policy or making decision ision based on agreed policies procedures the AI can do this now 70% of your job of managers and this was the big eye opener a few years ago and that's why I wrote that book hey what do you mean it's about white color no it's also about blue color yes but that's management but when we talk about leadership I don't Management in a way is for me not rocking the boat keeping it stable It's relatively related to a status quo but this is this has been the whole conversation no when we really want to see the value of AI that it can bring to us and that it will bring to us it's about looking forward innovating not status quo but together inclusive like I said inclusive AI adoption so management is is not what we need we need leadership and Leadership is about change about the direction as I explained but then how can you use AI correctly ethically and in an elevating way ah wow that will not be that easy so I I called this MBA and it's not a new degree we're going to try to sell to you but it's management by algorithm that's already happening now so the New York Times article yes that's an MBA what they want want to try to say yes when it really comes down to change it's different and let me give you a few examples very quickly if I say it's about Direction it's about being proactive forward looking right now ai can provide us the best scenarios and what we can do now but predicting a future it's a probability thing of course as a human we're not perfect either but as a human we're an active participant we feel we see Norms we see cultural norms we see expectations we know when to take the foot of the gas paddle and when to push the gas paddle because we're part of that culture and AI doesn't do that because it's not an active participant but it's an extremely important leadership skill emotional intelligence now we can say oh AI can already recognize emotions yes service level emotions and you know what this frightening thing it can be so accurate that 95 96% of the time it will be accurate and it will look like it seems like it's a human but in in reality it isn't and here we have an important question to ask yes most leadership tasks will probably be especially if they're close related to management be automated and can be automated but at the time when it's about elevating humans and understanding it and making sure that you don't make those little mistakes in interpersonal intelligence in in an emotional intelligence if you want to keep that alive we're not close and we should also ask the ethical question do we want that that's a question that is usually forgotten what I always see in these discussions is oh well it's possible because it feels like it and it seems like it and it's a cost cutting thing so why not well think about it if we keep thinking like this we're moving away from authenticity we're moving away from the original idea to elevate a humanity and a world that we want to see that is there for humans that's an important ethical and moral question and philosophical question all of you should ask yourself because yes up to 95% 96% we will be able to automate it but it's the same thing as with with creativity we will be probably automate that as well you know what it's the last 4% that I truly believe that will be that human element and we cannot take that away I feel from leadership definitely not now and I don't think in the next 10 to 20 years and should we take it away that's even another question we are coming to the end but I wanted to maybe ask you one final question I'll pick it here from Gretchen I'm interested also in the issue of how AI can impact our well-being and um Health mental health in particular and gr asked a question about burnout and to what extent AI can um can help of course now you're putting piling on even more pressure on people now they have to worry about this AI stuff they have to Res skill upskill while everything else keep going and so it's even more stressful and now they have threat to jobs people worry about how do they make a difference are they ready they don't understand it all of that so it's actually adding pressure rather than maybe making things life life easier it could be so just in one minute do do you have any ideas about for maybe each of us for everybody here on the webinar what can we do to make sure that we make progress with AI while guarding and improving our mental health and well-being well I mean the easiest answer would be truly human- centered because like I said it's there to serve and we need to make that clear uh that means don't treat people like data points don't treat people in a consistent way like a computer works that's already the first step to do it yeah because pure automation not human- centered approach would lead to that as I've pointed out and that leads to burnout so you can already be preventive so there's a preventive aspect to it I think second thing is like I believe in AI That's the AI optimism that I said is like oh it can have such great health benefits amazing the watches um you can monitor but what you do see is again the the idea of AI in itself artificial intelligence rational optimizing it also can take if you people people quickly get addicted to following patterns because it's all about pattern recognition and if you give a pattern each day or you've done so many steps or you this is your heart rate this is your blood pressure we get addicted to it that's also the human brain the human brain gets addicted to it so you have to be care you sometimes you will have to protect people themselves from not reading in too much from it yes because I mean this is an issue that is in in in medical for do medical doctors for so long already people are at the end of their life how do you want them to experience their end of their life until their last breath we optimize and say oh we just gave you a pill and extended it again with 10 minutes or your last day you live the way you like that's an important philosophical question I think you have to bring this in in balance for a mental well-being approach and I just want to put something out very carefully I see so many things happening today in terms of gen AI being used for coaching but also life coaching also for students for example at universities we they start talking about can we use Bots Bots now s coaches to reduce stress for students yes and no I mean this needs to be governed very well and there needs to be human in the loop because the generations at this moment need that human touch simply because of the word we haven't used yet trust in AI because today our research shows this your research show this if we say does it have an authentic element AI we will say no majority of people say no and when it comes out to mental health well-being and this is why it's so when Walmart Amazon are now moving into AI doctors and everything that's why people are afraid because they see the benefits in terms of optimation and pattern recognition but they fear the lack of a human element so we really need to find that balance there thank you David we are out of time so we'll wrap up um and I just want to emphasize the importance of having these kind of conversations and trying to enable an environment where we um think about the deployment of AI for the bettering of The Human Condition not just some cost saving and and efficiency so um I don't know Mary do you want to add anything to um no I just I just put something in the chat if you want to continue to um subscribe to the AI Horizons podcast you can also visit V us visit us at our website ai. won. upen EDU David thank you so very much for your time and the emphasis the importance of human in the loop with AI and how important that is I'm sure we will be talking to you again thank you so much for sharing your expertise and uh Stephano for leading such a um vibrant discussion and for everyone who participated on the chat and um showing us how important this topic was for you all so thank you David thank you Stephano thank you bye