Project 2025 is Project Theocracy: Part One with Dr. Kristin Kobes Du Mez and Rev. Nathan Empsall

hello welcome to the latest faithful America webinar tonight is the first live episode of a new three-part webinar series called project 2025 is Project theocracy the Christian nationalist roots of project 2025 my name is the Reverend Nathan impul I am the executive director of faithful America as well as an Episcopal priest now for those joining us for the first time tonight faithful America is the largest online community of Grassroots Christians roughly 200,000 members putting faith into action for love and social justice and against the religious rights hijacking of our faith our motto is Love Thy Neighbor no exceptions to share just one example of our work the LA times has credited faithful America with the inability of Michael Flynn pastors for Trump and their reawaken America Tour to find venues for their toxic Road show as a 501c4 not a church faithful America is legally able to organize against the presidential campaign of Donald Trump while continuing to stand against white Christian nationalism in all its forms where Jesus teaches Love Christian nationalism preaches hatred and division where Jesus says the truth shall set you free Christian nationalism spreads q and on lives and where Jesus is the Prince of Peace Christian Nation nationalism incites political violence now tonight in a few minutes I'll be joined in conversation by the wonderful and compelling and Brilliant Dr Christen kovis Dumay author of The New York Times best-selling Jesus and John Wayne how white evangelicals corrupted a faith and fractured a nation if you haven't read this book yet I really recommend it uh you should purchase it at bookshop.org that's a place where independent book sellers get a cut of the profit so will faithful America if you use the link that we'll email out and that I'll put in the chat in a few minutes I also highly recommend reading Kristen's substat column D connections and I'll I'll put a link to that in the chat in a few minutes as well on to tonight this webinar is the first on our three-part series project 2025 is Project theocracy the Christian nationalist fruits of project 2025 tonight's installment is called Maga project 2025 is Project Christian nationalism why are we talking about project 2025 why is everybody talking about project 2025 it even came up in the debate earlier this week along with cats and other things we're talking about project 2025 on a faithful America webinar and in two more faithful America webinars because there is no other topic that so perfectly and quickly sums up two very pressing points first the Skyhigh stakes in this election an election that is ultimately about joy and democracy versus hatred and theocracy second project 2025 is a compelling way to talk about the election with our friends family and neighbors to explain the stakes to them and to get them to the polls now we'll hear from Kristen about what is Project 2025 and why is it Christian nationalism in just a minute but here's the too long did not read version especially for those who have to leave in just a minute or two if you have to go early tonight project 2025 is a 900 page document laying out an authoritarian agenda for the next Republican Presidential Administration it was written by current and former top Trump AIDS and as well as the Heritage Foundation and guided by an advisory committee of Christian nationalist organizations it seeks to expand executive Authority and enact a Theocratic agenda of ripping away basic freedoms like public education lgbtq equality and abortion access and I could say a lot more but Kristen's going to do an even better job than I could so one other thing I do want to note before I bring in Kristen this was just really exciting I saw this earlier today some brand new polling out just today shows that sharing about project 2025 Theocratic attacks on our freedom is one of the single best ways to get undecided voters to make up their minds it's also one of the best ways to get decided voters to the polls to make sure they actually pass their ballot I'll share some of that polling a little later tonight now the last thing before I introduce Kristen I want to make two announcements first because I know it's the question we're going to get asked the most yes we are recording this webinar tonight we will send out YouTube and Facebook links tomorrow to everyone who registered we'll also be taking your questions later in the hour please feel free to use the Q&A box down there in the doly do to share your questions with Kristen and myself as we go along type them whenever you have them we'll get to them at the end but you can raise them as you have them again don't use the chat box use the box marked Q&A second I do now have the dates and panelists for parts two and three of the series we said in the email inviting you to this that we would announce those parts tonight and I'll share that information later in the hour uh and we'll also put that that info in the same email that goes out tomorrow uh with that includes the link to this video that link will also that video will ALS that email that email will also include all the links I'll be putting in the chat throughout the night finally without further Ado it's my great pleasure to introduce our special guest tonight Dr Kristen kobas Dum is a New York Times best-selling author and professor of history and gender studies at Calvin University her most recent book is New York Times bestseller Jesus and John Wayne a white evangelicals corrupted of faith and fractured a nation she holds a PhD from the University of Notre Dame and her research focuses on the intersection of gender religion and politics she has written for the New York Times The Washington Post NBC News Religion News service and Christianity Today and has been interviewed by NPR CBS and the BBC among other outlets one of those Outlets is PBS now I've been wanting to bring kristone on to a faithful America webinar for some time I knew it had to be this one after seeing her a few weeks ago on PBS's almond porn company in a special 18-minute SE called project 2025 will redefine the constitution in the name of Christianity Kristen thank you so much for joining us you are wonderful and the floor is all yours thank you so much for having me it's it's really great to be here with you tonight um and to to be with all of you who have who have joined in I have to say that uh I like talking about project 2025 uh maybe not all 900 pages of it on a Thursday evening um but the reason I like talking about it is because it uh I find it somewhat refreshing that we are focused on policy that we are we are focused on uh not on the um whatever Shenanigans are happening in uh any given moment uh we're not even talking about Identity or or U kind of cultural factors although as a cultural historian I I think those are very important it's refreshing wishing to have policy centered in our conversation about what matters in the upcoming election and what matters for the future of our country as a scholar and as a citizen I had almost come to despair that ideas didn't really matter anymore and yet here we are project 2025 ideas do seem to matter and here we have 900 pages of ideas spelled out with with great clarity telling the country what to expect if Trump wins the White House again although that statement right there is contested if you've been paying any attention if you watch the debate this week you'll know that Trump says he has no idea what's in Project 2025 barely heard of it right um certainly didn't read it isn't going to read it no idea what yall are talking about so let's start there uh does project 2025 have anything to do with Trump he didn't write it I don't know if he's read it I don't know if he reads much of anything so is this just a liberal or Democratic smear tactic to try to pin all of these you uh unpopular proposals many of them are extremely unpopular pin it on Trump no there's a reason that project 2025 is tightly connected to the next Trump Administration if we have a next Trump Administration uh we have around 140 former members of Trump's Administration first time around who have participated in this project uh the whole purpose of this document is to give a detailed Playbook to hand to Trump one of the regrets first time around of trump and his uh his loyalists was that they were not ready to hit the ground running and project 2025 is to is exists to remedy that situation so detailed Playbook also worth noting that this is not the first time the Heritage Foundation has come out with the Mandate for leadership they've been doing this since Reagan uh but this one's a little bit different I should also say that uh Heritage had a plan for Trump's first Administration uh those first weeks months were chaotic but even then they assessed that around 60% of their uh policy proposals were in fact uh uh implemented the first time around this one's a little bit different because it contains not just the policy set of policy proposals although it does contain those and in great detail it also contains uh a vision a plan to really overhaul the federal government and to increase executive power uh and uh so when we look at those policies that are part of this handbook uh we have to understand that they go hand inand with the plan to enhance executive power there's also a kind of um conservative LinkedIn a Personnel database that's a part of this big plan as well and they need that because to enhance executive the key plan there is to essentially Purge the federal government of anyone deemed insufficiently loyal to Trump and his agenda so that was one of the problems they identified lack of organization hitting the ground running and Trump himself has blamed disloyal appointees and members of the federal government civil servants with failing to carry out his agenda and so they want to fix that problem going forward so their plan is to purge uh maybe 10 maybe 20 maybe 50,000 federal workers across uh different agencies across the government and actually do away with some of the agencies like the Department of Education and uh install Trump loyalists including in places like the Department of Justice so one facet of this is essentially to weaponize the Department of Justice this goes along with exactly what Trump is saying he wants to do right he wants to use his power if he's president again to go after his enemies to go after anyone he deemed disloyal including members of his uh uh first Administration uh so we have to understand project 2025 both in terms of the agenda and uh in the policy agenda and then also in terms of enhancing executive power essentially saying Trump is in charge of the entire federal government uh or whoever that President may be but this is a handbook that they are planning to hand to Trump himself so um so what does this have to do with Christian nationalism here it's helpful to understand some of the key uh authors drafters involved in this project um particularly a man by the name of Russell vote now Russell vote was a member um like so many of other contributors a member of the first Trump Administration he is Trump's former director of The Office of Management and budget he also happens to be the author of the chapter on executive power in Project 2025 Russ vote is also a self-proclaimed Christian Nationalist and he um has ties to a number of other Christian nationalist leaders spread across an array of different denominations protest denominations so he'll appear on stage with them he's networked and he's connected and so that's a really important connection right there um many also suggest that Russ vote may be handpicked to serve as Trump's next chief of staff uh so despite these um I know Declarations of Innocence I know nothing about this the the connections really are quite tight we could talk about Kevin Roberts as well and his Connection in particular to JD Vance um uh Vance wrote the forward to Roberts's new book which should have been out by now or right about now but um when we're leaked about the contents of that book and they saw the damage it was doing to the Trump campaign because of the radical proposals in that book uh that has now been delayed released until after the election um the subtitle of that book until they changed it was burning down Washington to save America Kevin Roberts is the president of the Heritage Foundation and helped oversee this entire project um I should also say that Trump has praised the Heritage Foundation uh as before all of this um kind of Scandal around project 2025 emerged before people actually read what was in it and became alarmed he praised the Heritage Foundation and called a great group that would and I quote lay the groundwork and detailed plans for exactly what our movement will do when the American people give us a colossal mandate to save America so it looked like they were at least on the same page if not fully In Cahoots and I think we could expect that if Trump does win the white house uh if if all of these proposals may not necessarily uh pass um but they will at least all be on the table and we should expect a large number of them uh to uh be implemented okay so uh again this um it the idea that this is a policy handbook right and that a think tank would provide that that's not that unusual but this link to completely restructuring the federal government to enhance executive power that is and there are also some um you rather extreme iterations of these policies that are proposed um and it is an expansive document right so we have policies proposed on slashing regulations kind of typical conservative um economic policies corporate and personal income taxes um at least among the wealthy and reduce federal spending on the poor um and with regard to climate change repeal clean energy uh subsidies unleash oil and natural gas production run uh roll back uh Bank uh environmental regulations again eliminate the Department of Education and have voucher like options instead of public schooling and student loan forgiveness um and then we also have a number of conservative social issues that are a part of this uh restrict act uh access to the abortion pill and uh uh insurance coverage for the week after contraceptive pill and require states to report where women seeking abortions live Outlaw pornography uh and um and the document actually pornography to transgender ideology and to the sexualization of children right so all of that is kind of part of this as well um but uh and and here's where you can see some of this kind of Christian nationalist Foundation particularly in some of these social issues um but I think the key places I was reading through this document where I saw evidence of the Christian nationalist fun uh underpinning was in a particular quote um about the founders and when the founders spoke of the pursuit of happiness what they actually meant was the pursuit of blessedness and they say that the founders uh granted and the Constitution grants the Liberty not to do what we want but to do what we ought and as a scholar who has studied Christian nationalism right this Rings alarm bells to me to the rights in the Constitution guarantee us the right to do what we ought not what we want well what are the things that we ought to do this is this Christian nationalist framing uh and they will tell you what you ought to do aligning with their conservative and reactionary political and Theological values So within this framework there is no right uh certainly not to abortion lgbtq rights do not exist they they cannot exist because of their understanding of um this kind of mythical understanding of the Christian the the the origins of Christian America this kind of myth of Christian America yes there were Christians among the founders but we know that the founding documents in the Constitution were remarkably secular documents for their time right the Constitution stipulated this separation of church and state coming out of the era of religious wars and uh and set up a government that protected freedom of religion and freedom to not practice religion that stipulated there would be no establishment of religion right remarkable in its day and uh has shaped the government up till now uh and that is what is being uh eroded here uh with the Christian nationalist myth which suggests that no uh the Constitution established a distinctly Christian Nation some will even go so far as to say it was inspired directly by God and when they say it it established a distinctly Christian Nation then any interpretation of the Constitution must therefore align with their understanding of God's laws that's how they understand it and so to restore Christian America means to interpret the Constitution and to build the nation's laws around God's laws which are their particular versions of God's laws so you're not going to see you know God's laws being interpreted in terms of issuing a jubile right and forgiving debts every 50 years or mandating that we welcome all the strangers or that we love our neighbors as ourselves or that we turn the other cheek right th those biblical teachings aren't part of this understanding of Christian nationalism instead it's going to be interpreted in in terms of free market capitalism uh anti-lgbtq uh and traditional family often patriarchy is a part of that and so on and so forth right so this is really the um the interpretive schema of the constit stitution and this is the framework that this is meant to impose now the problem is that historically speaking right this is not how the Constitution has always been interpreted and uh also many Americans the majority of Americans do not support Christian nationalism they do not we have all kinds of survey data here um and that's a problem and that's the problem that project 2025 in its Grand Vision is set up to fix and here's how we can understand this Affinity between Trump with his authoritarian leanings and the Christian nationalist movement it is clear to them that they do not have the numbers to achieve their goals through purely Democratic means right and we've seen this kind of escalation of rhetoric and uh reactionary movement within Conservative Christian spaces and conservative Evangelical spaces over the last decade or so um or or two as we start to uh really confront these demographic changes uh uh what Robert Jones has called the end of white Christian America right conservative evangelicals or Christian nationalist folks are are familiar with those numbers they are well aware and that is why they are trying to use the mechanisms that they currently have in order to seize control and ensure that they maintain control of this government right and this is um key to understanding uh project 2025 and the enhancement of that executive power replacing um bureaucrats who are just trying to do their job um with Trump Loyalists and then what comes next what is on the other side of this that is the question right they want to completely restructure the government and restructure the country this is where Kevin Roberts said you know essentially achieve a a a second American Revolution which will be bloodless if the left allows it to be if the left allows it to be so those are those are frightening words here and uh so you can take any any number of issues that are includ that are are included in Project 2025 and talk about those but really you have to talk about this big picture and uh again it heartens me that many Americans are deeply concerned about the big picture uh I know that I I've seen survey data over the past months and the last couple of years that democracy isn't necessarily a uh a term that inspires uh voters and uh it's not necessarily the best mobilizing um uh concept um but it heartens me that in this case it it does seem to be that people are are concerned about particular um policy proposals but they are deeply concerned about this broader agenda which is designed crafted to uh work against a pluralist society to uh really ensure a CHR Christian supremacist approach to government and then make sure that that cannot be undone going forward and so it is something that we ought to pay careful attention to uh and um uh you know despite Trump's um protest that he has nothing to do with it I should also add that Kevin uh Roberts uh uh helped to or or Russ vote I believe it was helped to actually author the Republican Party platform right so even here and and Trump had a very clear hand in that it reads like a lot of his tweets uh string of his tweets so um that connection is very tight and the real connection there is not even around any particular policy issue it is around power and it is around granting unrestrained power unprecedented power to the next president if that president is Donald Trump so I'll leave it at that and then uh take some of your questions and uh we'll see where this goes thank you Kristen I love all of that I really appreciate I hate all of it but I also love it all um I I really appreciate all I'm so glad you ended on that note too about power because ultimately and that phrase Christian Supremacy uh because that's ultimately what this is about Christian nationalists are Christian but Christian nationalism is not it's it's a political ideology to seize power for just a few despite what Jesus told Satan in Luke 4 about I don't it's not what I'm here for um I want to ask you a couple follow-up questions and maybe talk about a couple things and and and to everyone watching thank you please put your questions in the Q&A box if you haven't already and we can ask a couple in a minute here um you talked about Russell vote and some of the others who are close to Trump who wrote this could you talk about some of the names that we'll know from the advisory committee because where there is James Dobson and Tony Perkins there is Christian nationalism yes yes uh so you're right I didn't mention all of these uh uh we have advisory committee we have a it's a growing list of conservative organizations who have either contributed to or signed on and this is really key too this is where you can definitely uh catch the Christian nationalist uh flavor here uh so yes we have uh James Dobson's uh Family Institute is a part of this Liberty University is a part of this Patrick Henry college is a part of this Alliance defending Freedom concerned women of America it really is a who's who list of conservative and conservative Christians organizations so in many ways this is the the the Christian right that has been around right since the 1970s and with roots going back even even deeper than that so there's something very familiar here this is not just a renegade or uh movement right um although it also is that right and so what we see in Project 2025 here is kind of the coalescing of the old Christian right uh that we're very familiar with the Dobson the ADF the Liberty the fwell types right that group uh firmly with Trump's Inner Circle and with Trump himself and with a list of ideas and a plan for implementation and I should say that the full plan for implementation is not actually public they kept some of this back um and understandably so and it's it it should be telling that the 900 pages that they released um didn't realize how provocative and how damaging that uh would be but this is the Old Guard Christian right and all of that massive infrastructure and funding coming alongside Trump and his inner circle and they all have their eyes on the white house uh there's one of the groups in particular that I don't think has gotten enough attention but to me really nails that connection between Christian nationalism and and Trump and and now project 2025 uh are you familiar been reading about America First legal and and their reaction to Kennedy V bton when that came out a couple years ago so you're gonna have to fil me on the Kennedy bton there so America First legal is one the reason I really want to ram home like who's on this advisory committee is Project 2025 seems to go to Great Lengths to high the it's Theocratic agenda it's Christian nationalist agenda and look like just another Heritage Foundation Republican document like they do every four years um they mention the Bible in in the LGB anti-lgbtq section beyond that the policies are clearly the ones about power and who they're from and are policies often only held by the religious right for religious reasons but they don't spell that religious piece out in the document and even when you look at the advisory committee someone either groups oh it's just another Republican group America First legal is one of those groups but it's more than that so it was started by it's a law firm uh a legal ADV group like Alliance defending Freedom started by Sten Miller and uh oh gosh I'm bling long Co brain the last white house chief of staff Meadows stephow Mar Meadow and and Meadows isn't close to Trump the way he used to be Miller isn't just a former Trump Aid he's still in Trump's C Circle he'll be back and he's the racist who is to blame for family separation for the Muslim ban for inding Daka for all of Trump's racist immigration policies when Miller and Meadow started this group Trump put out a press release praising or quote in their press release praising it so direct line to Trump here's why I bring it up because it looks like another Republican group when the Supreme Court and they're on the advisory committee right right next to family research Council and all those groups when the court allowed the football coach Kennedy to pre on the 50 yard line of a public school football game America First legal put out a statement and they said uh let me find the exact quote the Supreme Court's ruling today made clear that The Establishment Clause must be interpreted no this isn't the right sentence uh sorry AFL is hopeful that the justices will build on this ruling and eventually disincorporate The Establishment Clause which fully protects the rights of states to decide whether and what extent they will establish religion within their borders in other words Trump's top racist immigration adviser now one of the big wigs behind project 2025 is saying hey we know the federal government can't create an established church but the 50 states can you can declare religion the established religion in this in each state and that's what we want the Supreme Court to do so that's the kind of level of power and attack on your religious freedom that ultimately project 202's authors are designing it to do absolutely and it is uh since you mention Steven Miller let's talk about the anti-woke agenda here uh very explicit throughout project 2025 interl with that Christian nationalist agenda you really can't separate these um so there are all sorts of policy proposals in this document to attack quotequote woke ideology they have a whole list of terms that they want to cancel so kind of no government um uh materials can use uh phrases like um uh reproductive health and um you even to talk about uh I think systemic Justice or systemic racism right these kinds of Concepts they just want to like get rid of the words you can't even talk about these Concepts in any uh uh Federal um Administration right any any any group you you just can't any policies any recommendations and so they're really pushing back against this woke you know quotequote woke ideology the other thing I I want to add in terms of Christian nationalism here which is I mean it's so obvious that I didn't mention it but at the heart of Christian nationalism is an Us Versus Them ideology and it identifies fellow Americans as enemies as threats to real America to Christian America and those uh threats are everybody who does not not fall in line with their agenda other Christians are actually a huge threat and you'll see some of the worst vitriol from some of these folks in Christian nationalist spaces is aimed at their fellow Christians who are very dangerous to them precisely because they disrupt this notion that you're either with us or against us and God is on our side and you know we are God's people and everybody else is you know an enemy of God and Christians themselves who are speaking against this are the most dangerous so they often really really bear the brunt of this um but also that just that anti-woke kind of the same thing it's it's instituting an entirely new um kind of coerced Orthodoxy that aligns with their agenda on every single item it's that Us Versus Them mindset um I I avoided you using the term fascism for so long until I read the book by Jason Stanley um how fascism works the politics of US versus them I think was the name I was looking for it on this bookshelf it's not here but uh it's it's that Us Versus Them mindset that that is inherent in politics and we don't want to become inherent in government and that's why at faithful America we make a point of saying Christian nationalism is not Christian but Christian nationalists are we don't want to join them in questioning anybody's Faith uh we're just going to look at the fruit Ro there and and say and call them back to loving their neighbor uh and try to heal that Us Versus Them p a little bit um but part of Us Versus Them it like you said earlier it's all about power and project 2025 is is about policy but it's also about how to implement the policy the what but also the how and you talked about part of it the authoritarianism the increasing executive power and the part of that is stripping so many atic officials of of their government protections by making them political appointees who can get fired if they ever utter one of those woke phrases and another part of that that I don't think is getting enough attention is the resume bank because even if Donald Trump's never heard of this even if he never touches it the agenda of any Administration is implemented by thousands of people who maybe get a photo off with the president when they leave but otherwise never meet him and Heritage is is trying to staff the Trump Administration so that he doesn't have to care about project 2025 it's implemented by those folks anyway can you talk about the resume bank and those that those uh non report pieces but all the actual action pieces yeah you know if you're gonna Purge tens of thousands of government bureaucrats uh you need to fill those uh with Loyalists and you need to train some of these loyalists uh because a lot of the people who have the skills to run the government aren't going to be on board right they're not loyal enough and they're the ones who are targeted to be purged and so there's this database where you can take um like kind of video training courses and I've watched a couple of them and they're just essentially um indoctrination uh videos where you uh with with also some skills added right so they're trying to kind of groom a Workforce and train them so that they can hit the ground running when they Purge all of our uh you know current um government employees um in across the federal bureaucracy so um and this is how you know we're looking at this kind of fundamental restructuring of um what happens when you put these loyalists in in these key places in tens of thousands of them because one of the or or the real guard rails that did hold and not all of them did guardrails that did hold with Trump's first Administration was that there are a number of people filling all sorts of government positions who had Integrity regardless of their political party and they were trying to do their jobs with Integrity right and those are the people who are targeted for removal um and there are other mechanisms too that we haven't mentioned here in terms of government spending in terms of who is the power over that and it it all of it is really kind of taking this power that is distributed in and meant to be kind of dispersed in nonpartisan way I mean carrying forward the um you know kind of congressional um dictates and um to bring into the unitary executive to just really take all of that power from across the entire executive branch and put it all in the hands of the Commander in Chief the president if that's president Trump thank you so I want to make uh to share two things and then I I'll turn to the audience questions uh for you first you know the question we're always going to get about anything we talk about is what can I do and we're going to have a onepage toolkit coming out in the next few days uh some some very basic simple actions so I don't have that link yet but I have a couple things to just name the first is simple which of course is to vote and to get everyone you know to vote um the second thing and and that's not just true at the federal level because and we're going to talk about this more Monday night project 2020 is also a blueprint for State legislatures I mean there's so much here that that's going to keep happening at the state level um I voted in a primary for state representative a couple weeks ago that was decided by two votes fortunately it was not my unfortunately it was not my wife and my's vote because it went in the other direction but still two votes so vote in every every single line on that ballot learn the races um and vote uh we'll have a new statement from faithful America call it a petition if you'd like to sign and share to show the Press how many T you that there is widespread Christian opposition to project 2025 that it does not speak for our faith I could share the link with the old statement now that asked Republican presidential candidates in the primaries to reject project 2025 that was signed by about 15,000 Christians but we'll have a new one in the next uh week or two as well that you can add your name to but what I really want to encourage people to do is to talk about this and if you're a faith leader you can preach about this do not ever from the pulpit are using Church resources endorse or oppose a candidate or a party but you can educate on the issues you can talk about the stakes you can talk about the church's values remember that the Heritage Foundation like a church is a 501c3 so in a church do not tell people who to vote for or against but you can say look you're going to hear a lot of talk about religion in the election obviously we talk about religion here I want you to know what our values are what the stakes in this are why it's important to vote you're hearing about this called project 2025 here's what it says those are the stakes in this election they don't line up with our values please vote that the IRS says that's a perfectly fine message so please preach on this uh the other thing if you're not a preacher still talk about it and this is the second point I want to make there's Christen I don't know if you saw this there's some brand new pulling out today from the global strategy group this was paid for by uh the poll was paid for by n citizens united um but is conducted by the pollers at GSG and they I'm just going to read here they say there is clear political benefit to talking about project 2025 in Battleground house districts a generic Democrat has a four-point lead over a generic Republican for congress but when the choice is between an anti-pr 2025 Dem and a project 2025 Republican Democratic lead goes from four points to 18 by a 68 to 23% margin voters who are familiar with project 2025 are more likely to think that it would be harmful rather than helpful 75% say the word extreme describes it 73% say authoritarian 70% say dangerous and information about project 2025 does a better job of motivating Democratic voters to turn out than three traditional negative messages about Republicans too so this is turning people against those who support it and it's getting people who already think that way to say yeah I'm going to go vote and the last thing notee even though Trump's trying to distance himself from Project 2025 75% of Voters closely associated with him 79% believe he supports it so there's even a margin there that say no he has nothing to do with it but he still supports it 78% also believe the republicans in Congress support it so this doesn't just Define the stakes as everything Kristen laid out it really is motivating voters it really is explaining the stakes not just def you know highlighting them it's motivating people so please talk about that um Kristen I've got a question or two lined up to to share with you but I don't know if you want to respond to that pull data at all first oh I mean again it's it's heartening to me it's it's heartening that we can talk about real issues that really matter and uh you know and I would add too that if um as another talking point if people say well no Trump said you know he has nothing to do with it uh let them know that Kevin Roberts after uh a few weeks ago when when uh Trump tried to disavow he he he said basically like H don't worry about it guys right we know that it's not popular in this election season so just sit tight and right it's here when he needs it and like we're all good here we're all good so you know Kevin Roberts had a high level of confidence that um you know his his protestations were were simply uh a a political move and uh you know clearly this has the most damaging um um kind of weapon if you will very legitimate weapon in this election season and rightly so and again this this is not about um kind of traditional partisan politics and it's not about differing views on the size of government or on any particular policy this fundamentally does speak to the resilience even endurance of our democracy so let's turn to some questions from the 500 or so folks who have joined us tonight I hope I'm pronouncing your name right TR TR I love this says please address project 2025 and its connection to patriarchy as it continues the Deep oppression and hatred of all women yeah so there are some lines in it about uh uh uh various lines about kind of biblical roles and biblical teachings about family and um coming from the spaces where it's coming from right that's a kind of patriarchal order uh has language about a kind of male female diad and uh so very clear right there are two genders and only two genders and that the government ought to support and promote that there's a line that children have a right to be raised in a family with a mother and a father right now now what does that mean what would that look like if this is a kind of wish list what kinds of policies might follow with respect to gay marriage with respect to adoption with respect to all sorts of things that we kind of take for granted as as protected rights today um could fundamentally undermine those oh I should add too and then we could you know for for many voters as well uh you know the issue of abortion and women's rights is addressed to a certain extent in there it does not say it would ban all abortion right it's it's more um smaller steps in terms of um of uh restricting access to muffin prone uh abortion pill and uh uh also restricting access to some um contraceptive um um uh uh uh pills and uh interestingly also words about uh reining the Comack Comstock act going back to the early 20th century which um prohibits U mailing of contraceptive devices and so uh in terms of re women's reproductive freedom are a number of um places where that is addressed in this document as well another question comes from Sarah how does the document address religions other than Evangelical Christianity uh yeah it's um you know it doesn't uh and I'd have to go back so I read uh much of this uh a couple of months ago and um so I'm kind of dusting off some notes here um so I will speak not in terms ter of you know direct quotes as I'm pulling out in other places but the the general ethos which is uh I I think I use the the term Christian Supremacy here and and and I should say it doesn't um generally use the language Evangelical either and that's very typical of this kind of Christian nationalist framing which is um you know it's not distinctively Evangelical they would simply like to call it Christian or biblical right and so it's this kind of default generic and there's real power in framing it in that way and so where do other religions um come in uh it will be fine as long as you do not interfere with this order as long as you can live under this order uh this kind of Christian America and uh you know not disrupt this uh their plans and if you can find your place in this order you will you know be welcome here uh but you need to find your place within their order which is based on their idea of the god ordained order biblical law I'll add to that if I recall speaking of you know so much of this movement project5 and Beyond like you say means one specific kind of Christianity when they talk about Christianity so it's clearly an attack on uh pro-choice Christians and and uh Mainline Protestants Franklin Graham says Progressive Christianity will lead you to hell quote um it's an attack on Progressive Catholics but more than that I recall you've read all 900 pages I haven't but in one of the summaries I I read it said that referring back to covid-19 and the closure of house closure of houses of worship it it advocates for protections for churches but specifically uses the word church not house of worship it doesn't seem to cover I mean the courts would probably strike it down but you never know doesn't cover mosques or uh temples or synagogues or anything like that uh does it bring back the Muslim band even under another name oh I I no the Muslim ban is not a part of this um I believe I'd have to fact check that but in in looking at some uh misconceptions around it kind of the full Muslim B is not a part of this document um however then you can see what's in this document and then what folks who have contributed to this document and participated in this have said elsewhere and I think that's where you could get into um more of that territory so there's different kind of layers here but I have to fact check me on that but I do not believe the explicit Muslim ban it is part of project 2025 I I appreciate that because there is a lot of misinformation about what is in Project 2025 because there's so much garbage that the people behind it have been advocating for it's easy a lot of Articles out there saying it's in the document when it isn't um so that's you like we know Steph Miller behind project 2025 behind the Muslim band but it's not in this document but we know that there's that kind of language and approach to non-Christian religions that just do lose their uh their their clear religious freedom certainly anti-immigration policies right uh that align very closely with the the Republican Party platform as well um mass deportations and so on and of course there's some overlap there um uh uh with non-Christian religion or perceive so an anti-immigration sentiment so certainly you can find that in the document and so much of the abortion uh passages too clearly will have an impact on those Jewish communities and teachings that say uh in in cases of of threats to the mother there are times when an abortion may be required under those religious rules so to ban Judaism from practicing Judaism is is clearly anti- I mean that um that kind of framework even you know uh the the very kind of language that you're using here is um is is language that would would um you're not going to hear in those faces in the same way right because they're they're approaching this very much with this narrow vision of their agenda equals Christianity equals the the kind of true American uh agenda right this this whole so um talk about different kinds of christianities or mult M Faith uh that just really is not a part of this but over and over again you're going to come across language about you know imposing like biblical order and these biblical structures and that that really is Christian nationalism to a te where um you know in a pluralist society yes we should talk about what about uh uh kind of freedom for Jewish people to live according to their uh what their faith dictates um that doesn't have a place in the Christian nationalist framework right this is anti-pluralist it is fundamentally anti-democratic because the way that they understand all issues is what is God's law right God's law and they will tell you what God's law is in every circumstance and then their understanding is that if we as a country do not obey God's law if we do not structure our laws according to God's laws we will not receive God's blessing and this is kind of the make America great again right we have lost God's blessing or we have lost our way we have gone astray and it is time to take back the country so you can see how it resonates so uh so so well with Trump's own rhetoric make America great again take back our country right and so it is to um uh to just re uh retake America and place it uh restructure according to God's plan and then the takeaway is then you will be blessed we will be blessed so this is how you get to it is for your own good right it is for your own good to be coerced into obeying the laws that we pass because our country will be blessed and you will be blessed again the pursuit of blessedness not happiness the right to do what you ought not what you discern not what you want uh certainly not if you are outside of our agenda you know uh what what you would like to vote for one of the questions that's come up in several different wordings several different times is okay okay yeah so that's that's why these leaders want this it's going to get them power but how are they suckering everyday Christians into believing this following it and I think something you said is is so key uh we're talking about this in terms of how it harms pluralism how Farms our neighbors who are different than us and you said you're not going to hear that language in these other circles it's all about what it does for them and God's blessing God's life it's framed in such a positive way uh we have a mutual friend in in Doug padet who Pastor Doug padet of common good Doug says that uh one of the ways he's gotten some people to reink Christian nationalism is by asking them why do you like it why do you want a Christian Nation oh because Christian it is good so you want power just for Christians sure not for your Jewish friends well I didn't mean not for your buddist friends well what about you know it's when we start saying do you realize how this hurts these people we love they' never thought of it in those negative terms only what was in it for it's not that they are trying to hurt people they just only thought about the pro of the side of the proon list that is certainly part of it and then there's a darker side as well which is in many of these uh Christian communities for decades now their leaders have told them that they are under threat that they are under attack it was you know going back to the 70s the secular humanists and then it was the the feminists and the leftists and uh you know the Communists and radical Islam and then you the gay agenda and the Democrats right there's always an enemy and this is just how that works because if you can create fear it's a really great way to build a movement it's a really great way to consolidate power it's a really great way to drive donations and this has just been I mean this is the the me uh kind of one of the through lines of Jesus and John Wayne it is uh you know stoking these fears and then the fears are real people are really afraid about what's going to happen to their family to their children to their right to worship right you will hear this over and over and over again in Conservative Christian spaces from Christian radio Christian Media right that the government is coming for you for your children you cannot practice your faith this apocalyptic right dark dark vision and therefore because the threats are so great you have to seize power you have to seize power while you still can because they are coming for you right so there's this justification and I know a lot of people are very afraid if you are only kind of taking in conservative media in those Echo Chambers and hearing over and over again it feels very threatening especially if you don't have a lot of contact in some of these Conservative Christian spaces the communities are are established so that you don't have a lot of interaction Christian school home school your social group is your church group right and so what's really helpful is you know the examples that you were giving of wait what what about your your um non-Christian friend what about your neighbor what about me in this and just reminding people but also you need to have those relationships to be able to ask those questions right you need to build those relationships and remind people that the rhetoric that they've been fed this uh fear that has been really just uh uh instilled in their communities it doesn't really map on to their lived experience it really doesn't right that this is a kind of propaganda to make them afraid to drive the polarization and when you look around you in your daily life we actually get along pretty well I mean I was really I I was struck by this I I fly a lot these days and I'm in airports a lot and sure you hear your airport horror stories and they make it to Twitter and social media every once in a while but honestly it struck me that I fly a whole lot and I generally have relatively Pleasant and sometimes very sweet interactions with almost anybody I meet even when we're tired and on business travel and all of these things we're fine in our neighborhoods we don't always know you know at the grocery store in general you know we're just wishing well for other folks and we can get along pretty well with each other and that America right you're not going to encounter in these Christian nationalist spaces that vision of America it's again always the US versus them instead of the common good always US versus them and you just have to find ways to show that that's that's actually not accurate that's propaganda that that's not who we are it really isn't the only to use a phrase I hate illegal alien you've ever seen trying to eat a cat is a brown furry one from an 80 sitcom Al so why do you believe Donald Trump and JD Vance and te ruz when they are telling you otherwise dangerous rhetoric too right you know we should just call that out it is such dangerous rhetoric you you you mentioned um Jason Stanley's book on fascism uh when I was uh in graduate school my outside field was 20th century Germany in the German Christian Movement and uh in genocide studies and for those of us who are familiar with that literature we know that this demonization demonization and dehumanization is always the first step towards actual violence and Christians of all people ought to fight against that dehumanization of fellow image bearers right and and yet so often in this country Christians are on the Leading Edge of dehumanizing their neighbors of dehumanizing their fellow citizens of dehumanizing often the least of these and what we as ought to be doing is looking for the image of God In All Humans every single one you know I had two questions I wanted to pull from the um the Q&A box and you just hit the next one I had a couple people asking about the Deutsch Christian and Germany in the 1930s and you you just nailed that so the last question I want to bring up from the Q&A and then uh I'll share about our upcoming webinars and then we'll talk about your new movie and we'll wrap it up for the night um I'm not sure what the actual question here is but there's a pattern a lot of people have said is this related to the Christian reconstructionists is this related to Seven Mountains dominionism is turning points USA and Charlie Kirk behind this with their TPA Faith offshoot uh how is this related to Mike Flynn or the uh the N the New Apostolic Reformation all these groups we keep hearing about on straight white American Jesus or elsewhere that that together make up the real right everyone is picking a different piece of that Network and asking in the Q&A how are they linked to this I love this composite question it is exactly the right question that we have to ask yes yes yes and yes to all of those right um and and this is how this works and this is why um several months ago you mentioned my substack and I I wrote a piece called the thickening webs of the Christian right uh several months ago and it was around I think it was around project 2025 if I recall right and and the coalitions that we saw that to those of us who observe these spaces uh were chilling right I mentioned already we had kind of this Old Guard Christian right and then the Trump folks but what we see happening you know the Christian right today is not just the fwell uh Robertson types although we still have those Christian reconstructionism absolutely to those of you who know what we're talking about there um we can trace that through many of these networks much more so I'm I'm working on a a kind of future uh research project that's tracing um uh kind of going deeper into the history of these networks and Christian reconstructionism is so much more prominent than people actually influenced by Christian reconstructionism want to let you uh believe right this has been this movement that's often kind of just underneath the surface but it shaped um Howard Phillips the council for National policy um we can see it in Doug Wilson and all the stuff he has going on in his little Christian uh nationalist Enclave in Idaho uh and and then yes let's talk about the New Apostolic formation and uh Seven Mountains mandate and we can trace back there to routes to rush Doney and um and we have this massive movement that if you're not tuned in you're probably completely oblivious too except sometime you know on loc on on national news you'll see somebody blowing a chofar or something and you know and like just weird it seems so weird it's like who even are these people and then you you change the channel but no this is a m I movement drawing in millions of people and tens of millions of people and globally I think we're into probably hundreds of millions now I have to check with Matthew Taylor on that right these movements and so you've got all of these different strands varieties of Christian nationalism um histories Traditions kind of coming together and then what you see is they're all hanging out together they're on stage together at napcon um tpusa right in the mix here right right linked into the Trump Administration linked into the Southern Baptist convention and the conservative Baptist Network linked through all of these denominations and project 2025 really is just kind of the the the um the tip of the iceberg in terms of these vast networks that are setting aside whatever differences they have and I mean if you if you actually want to think theologically there are enormous differences theological differences um among these folks that doesn't matter what we see is they're uniting around this common political vision and it is one of seizing power now the question remains what they're going to do if they actually get it because there are so many egos in those rooms uh it's really hard to conceive of you know if they would actually have power who gets to decide exactly what God's law says in all of these circumstances but frankly that's a scenario I really don't want to experience and find out how going to sort that out I'm I'm having a you never remember wrote it down I can't find my my notes which of the books defining Christian nationalism by a self-professed Christian nationalist was it torba uh there have been a couple of these that to your point though they don't share theology what they share as a goal of power one of them I want to say it was torba but I might have that wrong explicitly wrote we have to change our end times theology away from premillennialism or whichever it was to to post m one of them because what we have now is a losing theology we need a winning theology that motivates people to vote instead of thinking voting doesn't matter because it's all done so basing the politics and and basing the theology in the politics and the quest for power rather than the other way around and that is nothing new right despite what you may have heard from folks on the inside that know everything they do is motivated by their biblical theology as a religious historian and a cultural historian I can say and it's not that theology doesn't matter theology is operative in in in these spaces but it is not always and not often even the driving force and that theology is actually very pliable in terms of what will secure uh Power we have over 99 more questions in the Q&A box can't get to them all thank you for everyone who's submitting a question I had promised chrisan we'd have her out of here at 8:30 but there are two more things we really need to cover first let me tell you about the next two parts of the webinar and then we're going to hear from Christen about a new movie she's been working on that is just incredibly important and Powerful so we have this is part one of three parts this was an overview what is Christian Nation what is Project 2025 what are its ties to Christian nationalism part two will be this coming Monday September 16th once again at 7:30 p.m. Eastern it's called magas project 2025 project everywhere with guests from faith in Florida and from Americans United for the separation of church and state we'll learn about the threat that project 2025 poses not just at the federal level or in one single presidential election but also at the state level for years to come uh I've put a link in the registration I mean in the chat to register and we'll also share that in a forthcoming email the next day or two here then the following Monday September 23rd but at a different time 3 p.m. Eastern will conclude with magas project 2025 is Project everything I'll have that link in the coming days we still putting together panelist head shots and whatnot but that is going to do a deep dive into specific issues for which project 2025 lays out an anti-freedom agenda we'll talk about lgbtq rights abortion access climate change and the death penalty in Project 2025 or how they're at least linked to if not directly in it our expert panel will feature on September 23rd we'll feature guests from the Interfaith Alliance Grist the climate Solutions publication and death penalty action all right last thing I'm put this link in the trailer I mean the link to the trailer in the chat will you please tell us about your new film and then I will share screen to play the trailer absolutely yes um just released the the trailer today uh the film releases September 26 so two weeks from today this film is called for our daughters and it is based on the last chapter of Jesus and John Wayne if you've read that book um and it traces a harrowing stories of abuse sexual abuse in Evangelical spaces and not just the perpetrators but also the enablers the way communities over and over again these repeated patterns of actually supporting the perpetrator defending the perpetrator and uh further marginalizing and condemning victims and we have remarkable survivors telling their stories uh Christa Brown Tiffany ppin Jules Woodson Rachel Den Hollander is in the film as well um it's directed by an Emmy award-winning director and it's a documentary short it's 30 minutes and it's all set in the context as my book Jesus and John Wayne itself in the context of Christian nationalism and asking are these the men that we want to put in charge of our country and the title actually came from um a an experience I had with um shortly after Jesus and John Wayne published I received a note from a conservative woman and she asked if she and a couple of her friends also conservative Evangelical women could meet with me over Zoom I anticipated they'd be critical of the book um right it's it's it wasn't really written to woo evangelicals but that was not at all what what they said when we got on the zoom they said um thank you Kristen and is there anything we can do to help and they told me that we've made our choices and it's too late for us uh we can't undo the choices we've made and and walk away from the lives that that we've made but we want something different for our daughters and that struck me and I've carried their words with me from that day and so this film is for our daughters for our daughters I'm gonna play the trailer share my screen holler at me if you can't see it or uh properly hear it so leave your mic off so I'll hear you talk Kristen if if if the trailer isn't playing properly I regretfully had a sexual incident with a female high school senior in the church he tells the world that it had occurred and everybody stands and they give him a standing ovation a jury in New York has found that Trump sexually abused and defamed eege Carroll and awarded her $5 million in Damages it may seem surprising that a self-professed Moral Majority would end up supporting a candidate who has bragged about assaulting women but if you look inside their own communities you can see how for decades they have propped up men who have abused used power and have excused all kinds of harm all kinds of abuses for the sake of that power the ends justifies the means I will fight even harder for Christians with four more years in the White House I get in there you're going to be using that power at a level that you've never used it before we wake up tomorrow in a Christian Nation will women have the right to vote tomorrow if you wave that magic Christian wand no Macho power uh is not what Jesus calls for uh Jesus himself did not operate in that way Jesus was gentle he was humble particularly in his relationship with women in that way he told us men what we are to be like and and I think what we have to Grapple with again is that the reality that that those of us who are and our voices are not calling for a departure from Christ but rather a return to who Christ really is thank you for that movie and for sharing with it had that line about no women wouldn't have the right to vote if I could wave a wand is chilling and to your point about networks and this being so big every year faithful America we put out a list of U false prophets who are leaders in the Christian nationalist movement coming to us as as sheep in sheep's clothing but actually wolves and one of them on the list this year is uh the lieutenant governor of North Carolina running for governor Man by the name of Mark Robinson who as as a public official who wants a promotion said basically just that that he wishes he could take us back to the days when women can't vote um so whether it's in politics or the church uh there's a a link to the trailer we'll do your suback article including the embedded trailer in the chat how can people see this film uh we have made it barrier-free so on September 26 it will be available online at for ourd daughters film.com and on YouTube free available it's 30 minutes so it's it's a perfect length to watch with friends watch in church groups and talk about it afterwards we're also um likely going to have it up on a platform that is uh configured for group screenings either virtual or in person so really U professional streaming process there might be a slight fee involved um uh in that just for the the platform service but otherwise the the film will be everywhere uh on September 26 fantastic well sometime after the election I'm afraid we'll get you and some others from the book back we we'll do a a screening I guess online for faithful American members tell everyone to either whether it's step portal or just on your own watch it at such and such a time and then we'll get to together for one of these to talk about it um fact as you mentioned her we've had her on before for webinar I want to plug one other book which is out this year Baptist land A Memoir of abuse betrayal and transformation by our mutual friend Christa Brown I was thinking that this webinar was the first time you and I have have worked together publicly and then I remembered we're actually both blurbing the book so please go read both Jesus and John Wayne and Baptist land big big thank you that everyone who watched tonight will send out the YouTube links you could watch again and share in a Bible study or something uh before we let you go Dr Christen kobis Dum what gives you hope oh you know I am finding some real hope in the community in the movement here um uh for for good uh you know we went through some dark times this summer and in the last few years off and on as a country and it was easy to start to lose hope and I am find hope in groups like this in people like this I see so many people around the country stepping up to do what they can in their places I see so many stories of individual courage Ive worked closely with these survivors again harrowing stories and to see their resilience after it has cost them so much they continue to put themselves on the line just to help others to protect others and to do what is right and to work for justice and when I see the cost that that some of these people are taking on and willingly uh I honestly just find that inspiring and inspires me to step up and try to do the same and oh there you perfect um for anyone who wants more if you're in the DC area next week come hear Kristen speak at test of faith a summit to defend democracy I'm not speaking I'll be there faithful America we'll have a table out in the hall with some of the other sponsors uh it's just so you know when Kristen talks about the movement and the people doing this work so many you're going to be there so if you're in the DC area come out and get some of that hope but Kristen thank you for sharing with us tonight and like you said I get the Hope from the people from the 300 some OD still with us now the 500 some OD who joined us tonight you are my source of Hope along with Jesus Christ and the Hope in the resurrection remember that you are loved accept that love spread it everyone you know no exceptions Kristen thank you we'll see out there thank you