Iowa Mom Strangled Her 5-Year-Old Daughter with Pajamas

where once you completed the physical autopsy of Chloe what was the cause of death physically for Chloe strangulation the best moms in the world have moments and I didn't have any moment I didn't even physically touch my daughter that day this was a uh highly coercive interrogation the kind of which that uh um could lead both to a guilty person providing a True Confession confession or an innocent person providing a false confession it is the intense back and forth of the Kelsey Thomas trial the mother accused of killing her own young daughter we're going to go through the evidence the arguments and the perhaps unexpected ending to this story welcome to sidebar presented by law and crime I'm Jesse Weber we're continuing our Recaps of Trials you might have missed ones that we covered on the law crime Network and our next one takes us back to 2020 out in Iowa where 23-year-old Kelsey Thomas was charged with the murder and child endangerment of her 5-year-old daughter Khloe Chandler back in July of 2018 Khloe was found dead in the family's home and this became a question of how did she die one Theory put forward by by prosecutors was that Thomas used this little girl's pajama pants to strangle her to death as for the other Theory I'm going to allow the defense to present that but we want to start off with the prosecution's opening statement back on March 4th 2020 that lays out more details and also as you're going to hear from prosecutor Ruben nef this is not an easy case to sit through i' also like to take this time to apologize and by that I simply mean many of you have lived normal lives you do not see pretty much everyone else that works in this courtroom tends to see on a daily basis we're going to have to look at very difficult evidence hear testimony on difficult topics you will have to see medical examiner autopsy photos throughout this trial and just keep in mind you will see lots of very difficult images if you need a break at any time it is perfectly allowable for you to ask for that break because this whole trial will revolve around one particular act and that is through all the evidence that we intend to present to you through this trial we expect to prove that the last moments close L Chandler experienced on this Earth or watching her own mother strangle her we intend to prove to you through our evidence that on July 2018 July 19th 2018 Chloe Chandler granddaughter of Cali cookit second cousin of Britney Johnson the sister of her baby brother Phoenix was killed by her mother the defendant Kelsey Thomas you'll hear testimony of how law enforcement and firefighters arrived on scene around 3 30 340 on that day you'll hear testimony from Cory binge in the Tomo fire department I believe he's the Chief Fire or so chief Deputy firefighter he'll testify to you how he was the first on scene and came into the home went into Chloe's room and found her lifeless he'll testify to you how he found her body called to the touch how he tried to resuscitate her and could not get essentially a life reading how he found her airwing was was blocked by vomit you'll learn that Kelsey had Chloe when she was 16 from a guy who cheated on her left her and more importantly you'll learn from cie how Kelsey met a new man Aaron Thomas they married they had another child Phoenix and how cie describes Kelsey behaving around Chloe after Phoenix is born will be incredibly important cuz we expect that you'll learn the context of this relationship how Kelsey grew distant from Chloe became more irritated with Chloe and how Kelsey asked King on prior occasions if she would take Chloe and that idea of Kelsey Thomas maybe needing help or being overwhelmed or frustrated or being angry at her situation we're going to explore that at a little bit but I should also tell you the prosecution suggested that Kelsey Thomas confessed that she confessed to killing Khloe in her interview with police now the defense moving over to them as I said they have an alternative Theory as to what happened to Khloe and they also have an explanation for anything Kelsey may have said to law enforcement ladies and [Music] gentlemen on July 19th 2018e Chandler tragically died by an accidental Hing the state will not be able to prove to you beyond a reasonable doubt that it happened any other way and because of that at the close of all the evidence not just the state's evidence but all the evidence I'll get back up here and I'll ask you return a verdict of not false confessions are a real life thing and in this case you folks are going to hear from Dr Brian Cutler who is an expert on interrogation and false confessions Brian Cutler is going to tell you about how he reviewed the interrogation of kelse thas he's going to tell you about the many known risk factors for false confession that existed during that interrogation Dr Cutler will testify that while he can't tell you if Kelsey Thomas is telling the truth because nobody can tell you if Kelsey Thomas was is actually telling the truth he'll testify that in his expert opinion that interrogation created an environment which would encourage both an innocent and guilty person to confess so the defense's positioning was this was an accidental hanging that Khloe in an effort to create a swing accidentally killed herself that Kelsey Thomas discovered her daughter in this situation that she was coerced into providing a false confession to police that's what happened you know what's difficult you know what's tough reading through legal briefs and filings to prepare for sidebar it's like I'm back in law school being told I look like Dennis Reynolds every single time I check the comments that wears on you at this point I think people think he hosts the show again it's tough but you know what's not difficult starting a claim with Morgan and Morgan how about that transition by the way well Morgan and Morgan America's largest injury Law Firm they make the process as easy as possible for their clients because from starting your claim to uploading documents to talking to your legal team it can all be done from your smartphone there's no upfront fee you only pay them if you win and speaking winning Morgan and Morgan they have a track record of securing verdicts and settlements and the multi-millions so if you're injured this may be the firm you want in your corner you can easily start a claim at forthepeople.com LC sidebar now let's get into this so the prosecution presented witnesses to establish the struggles that Thomas was facing and some tension between her and Chloe and also some odd comments that were attributed to Kelsey Thomas and that included testimony from Thomas's own mother did you ever have any conversations with Kelsey about Chloe yes what kind of things did you talk about relating to chlo she would be having a hard time getting Chloe to listen and I just told her to try to spend as much time as she could with her and why did you tell her that cuz I thought maybe if she spent more time with her and paid more attention with her that she would stop being a brat did you ever have a conversation with Kelsey specifically about Chloe coming to live with you yes what did Kelsey ask you during that conversation or S she pretty much to made toate Chloe now on July 19th 2018 did you find out about Chloe's death yes how did you find out about Chloe's death one of Kelsey's ex-boyfriends called me around what time was it that you got a call from that boyfriend I'm sorry yeah I think it was a little after 8:00 on that day did Kelsey try to reach out to you in any way no what did you do after you talked to that boyfriend or ex-boyfriend Inge I called Kelsey and around what time was it that you callus celsey it would have been between 800 and 8:30 what if anything did Kelsey say I asked her what she was doing and she said she was eating and I I said how's Chloe and she said how did you find out and that was her response when you asked yes so if we accept that as true very strange response right is that because she killed her daughter that she reacted that way and then there was Britney Johnson Thomas's cousin who didn't believe that Khloe's death was just an accident and agreed to work with police listen to her interaction with Thomas did you and KY talk about Chloe um and her behavior prior to her death yes and what did Kelsey tell you um she explained things that were odd that Chloe reminded her of her father that she would get out of hand that she would make her upset things that a grieving mother wouldn't normally on my opinion Express she said that she must have accidentally hung herself and she proceeded to explain how she thought it happened but during that time I had asked to enter the residence once we had parked and she told me that she wouldn't go back in because she had just watched her daughter die and then did she then after she said that then say well not really die but I found her she did she corrected herself did you during that conversation did you talk about the fact that the police were investigating what had happened I did and what if anything did Kelsey say regarding that um that she thought she was going to be okay was did she give you any indication about whether or not um she was happy that the police were investigating what happened no she wasn't not happy that the police were investigating what was happening did she did she specifically talk to you about um whether or not Chloe had ever done anything like this before like tied anything around her neck or say anything regarding that I did not believe so now I want to get into arguably the heart of this case medical testimony look forensic Pathologists medical examiners they're always important players in any case of course but sometimes we already know how someone died it's not the central question their testimony becomes more perun prosecution has to establish yes that someone died and how they died and yes you need to call the medical examiner but here in a case when we're trying to establish how a 5-year-old died like this strangulation or accident the medical examiner this testimony becomes so important so with that let's hear what Dr Michelle cataler had to say Chloe Chandler once you completed the physical autopsy of Chloe what was the cause of death physically for Chloe strangulation can you walk us through when you say strangulation what it means for forensic pathologist to know that well strangulation is a broad term um we specifically think of it as having injury caused by something um constricting the neck um but it can be due to hanging a suspension type strangulation with a ligature it can be due to a ligature strangulation caused by forces other than gravity and body weight such as um pulling or uh pushing on the neck often with a tool um it can be manual strangulation as when someone uses their hands and then there are other kinds that are um even less common like um compression with the arm um and the elbow used uh to uh make uh what's often called a choke hold what physical evidence of strangulation did you find on CH well first of all there was a ligature Furrow a Furrow is what we call um a patterned injury that's on the neck um in terms of strangulation and that reflects the presence of an object that caused constriction of the neck most often some kind of ligature um that is actually an abrasion often combined with a contusion and sometimes just pressure marks um there's also kind of a peculiar outline of um three parallel marks that are um at the top and Center toward her right and uh those are faintly outlined uh which would support a pressure in the Middle with the blood pushed out to the sides and there are also some little abrasions or scratches in the middle of those areas uh those may represent well they they are patterned injuries which would suggest an object caused them and uh they are suggestive of fingers that may have been under that ligature or adjacent to an under the ligature with uh the abrasions being consistent with nail marks I want you to keep those findings in mind when we get to the defenses case because they present their own expert okay but now I want to focus on another key piece of evidence in this case something that I mentioned before Thomas's police inter ation this is key so the idea is that she changed her story and the defense will say she was coerced into providing false information so you have two different perspectives here first she denies she denies she denies she claims she found Khloe in the closet with pajama pants tied to her neck that Khloe wanted to make a swing in the closet with the pants and this little girl accidentally strangled herself hung herself and the key the big key here from Kelsey Thomas and what she reiterates as you see is that she is not responsible she didn't do this know that tell us this [Music] is your family is calling us telling us that you absolutely did this I'm not bullshitting yet your family are the ones that called us and told us what family this is not right have honestly what family two to three plus people I don't have close family aity wise close honestly we're not talking about 10,000 we're talking about another I don't even talk to half my family the only person that's normally in my house other than me and my husband is my grandma just just to reiterate the M yesterday this is not accidental right I'm so tired of being accused I loved my daughter I'm not saying it didn't sure saying that way listen at any point in this conversation yesterday's conversation did anybody sayel you did not love you would be accus listen what else did we tell you though even the best moms in the world have their moments and I didn't have any [Music] moments we T yesterday I didn't even physically touch my daughter that day yesterday about the picture that the media is painted and it's not a good one you know that we can agree on that right I am not agreeing to killing my saying I'm simply saying you guys are getting me to you're trying to get me to agree something that I didn't doth I am telling youth that right I can tell again this all goes back to what do you want to be seen has do you want to be seen as the mom had a lot of reasons why think for you didn't have support something went bad a [Music] split [Music] motions how do you think people are going to see that I had a lot of crying when I found her and and I understand that and I'm not denying you did but that can also be attributed to the traumatic event that you witnessed that you were part of no listen oh my God you guys are literally pissing me off explanation is no and that's why hard I am tell freaking truth maybe there was no reason for her to die other than you wanted no we don't want to believe this was just straight cold blooded murder that it was a scene that you put in place but that's what it looks like I didn't kill her for Christ sakes tell some we the time with you so we can have those answers everyone else is going to have help us tell that story I understand you have to be hurting I get that Kelsey I don't know maybe it is just Rel maybe this is the first we've had now that she's gone oh my God you're sickel when people watch the interviews we've had with you and you can sit here and KN this this is the first sh of emotion that you've shown is being pissed just because we won't let you get by the saying you didn't kill your daughter what proof do you have that I killed my daughter honestly told you you haven't show me anything do you want to see B pictures of your daughter no not really because I'm supposed to be going to see her here soon no I love my daughter I would never think of anything about killing [Music] her we don't think this out forths and months trying to go the reasonable idea that something just fre went wrong but you keep telling [Music] us that dead I understand I found her something happened I'm aware that she put herself in that position how can you even say that you understand she could not have done this to herself there is no other explanation Kelsey the only explanation is you're the [Music] explanation did you do something and throw her in her room thought she'd be okay and then you woke up she was dead no and then you had to put her in the closet or she come up with that story worried when I found her she was in the closet what happened before nothing I didn't put her in her closet I didn't kill her did you drag her to her room did you put something around her throat room say stay in there no did you have to beat her bottom she came out no the only time that I touched the back of her neck was when I lifted her up head as many times you have told us to your story that you did not kill your daughter I didn't kill my daughter no I didn't to slip up on the fact that whether I believe she was hanging in there so your wasn't hanging in the closet I found her hanging in the closet why are you guys trying to put words in my mouth okay I'm still stressed out with that right there so I ask you how I don't know we ask you how you killed your daughter I don't know I didn't kill my daughter do you enjoy sitting there with the smirk on your face H I don't know what you think SM is I'm SM I don't enjy really this whole situation has taken me away from a lot of things other things in my life that I'd like to be doing but your daughter's dead and we know you did it gets tense as you can see and police they don't let up and then the story from Kelsey Thomas ends up changing it went from everything was okay with Khloe to this expression of frustration at her daughter and that the story shifted from Khloe being in the closet to something happening in the bed when I grabed Phoenix out of her room and I turned around and told her that she the same bed down stay stay [Music] that Mak sense because I would be the same way I did something I was too aggressive you have to go to [Music] sleep pass when I go to bed when I sleep when I wake up she be fine she wasn't that's a story actually mat [Music] that's mother just frustra than that every day she she jumped in a bed and as I was coming I came into the room and she had jumped out of her bed and I tried to grab her I tried to grab her arm she s run out of her bedroom I grabbed the pants and I just went like this and I [Music] she she was I tried to grab her arm which stopped her she her my so I gra the and over and then when I pull I don't I don't know honestly if I if I twisted or you know I know she had turned around I stepped forward the p and I try to get [Music] the [Music] the and prosecutors say Kelsey Thomas admitted to police that she killed her daughter essentially in a fit of anger which arguably matches up to the physical evidence Pres presented by the prosecution hey so I'm going to take a guess and say that a lot of you who watch sidebar might be business owners maybe even thinking of starting a little side hustle well if that's the case I want to talk to you about our amazing sponsor ODU so ODU is a free all-in-one business management software that provides you with a range of applications that helps with the day-to-day of owning a business now as some of you might know I'm the host and executive producer of a very popular YouTube show called Prime crime it's on our long crime page so this is like managing a business and I want you to watch it say if we ever charge for Prime crime and to be clear we have no plans to do that so don't worry I could seamlessly and for free build a prime crime website with ODU and put a built-in checkout page on the website with very little effort monthly subscriptions it's even easier look how easy that was five minutes later I now have Prim crime.com so thank you to ODU for sponsoring sidebar and thank you for getting me a prime crime website you can build your website now domain is free for the first year when you use our link odu.com sidebar prosecutors also suggested that Miss Thomas wrote a letter to her family apologizing S A marks as States exhibit 84 if you could read that for the jury and States family I just want to say how terrible terribly sorry I am right now I love Chloe so much and never thought anything like this would ever happen I just wish more of you would have helped me when I asked or tried to get me the help we all know I needed please keep her memories alive let Phoenix know I love him and that I'm very sorry this happened I'm sorry I lied to everyone I was so scared of what I did and what would happen I don't blame you guys if you never forgive me I wouldn't either love you all so much Kelsey so a pretty strong prosecution case right well the defense had their turn they presented a case too and they picked apart a lot of what the prosecution presented and I want to start with that confession because the defense called Dr Brian Cutler a false confession expert here was his take so were you able to uh come to an opinion about uh the interrogation that was conducted on Kelsey Compass yes and what is your opinion uh the opinion that this was a uh highly coercive interrogation the kind of which that uh uh could lead both to a guilty person providing a True Confession confession or an innocent person providing a false confession Dr Culler if in this case ultimately Kelsey Thomas was presented by investigators with two options one is she's a monster who would just kill her daughter premeditatedly or she is the over burdened mom who just snapped is that a minimization tactic that was employed there uh it's in part a minimization tactic it's also another tactic uh uh that we uh we call um uh alternative questions uh the idea is to uh limit the suspect's degree of choices so you notice being innocent wasn't one of those choices in that example it was uh agreed to have committed the crime for this reason which sounds awful you're monster or agreed to this more um excusable version of the crime that it was uh an accident um that agreeing to uh to the more minimized version of the crime leads people to think that they'll be treated more leniently uh uh for confessing so it's that alternative question where where this uh suspects provided with two options uh one uh uh sounding more excusable uh than the other and and the T the idea providing excuse for having committed the crime as part of mization how many times did you in your team document minimizing tactics being used against Cel in the 3-hour interview uh we found 65 instances and terms of Khloe's injuries the defense called their own expert Dr Thomas Young Who disagreed with the state's medical examiner based on your review were you able to come to an opinion on the cause of death of Chloe Chandler to a reasonable degree of medical certainty yes and just generally speaking doctor what is your uh opinion and we'll get into the specifics if you go along okay my opinion has to do with what was witnessed uh not only by the mother of the child but also by others who participated in the uh the attempt to resuscitate the child um looking at those statements and looking at the findings from the autopsy and other physical evidence related to the case it's my opinion that the uh the witness accounts uh particularly the initial ones are consistent with the autopsy findings and that there are no inconsistencies as such were I to offer an opinion as to cause of death cause of death would be hanging having a finding of these kinds of hemorrhages that she's described um would not be unexpected however what is interesting here is that the kinds of hemorrhages that are usually noted in strangulation cases for absent in this case what frequently happens is that strangulation cases are often associated with head injury because usually when there there's a strangulation going on there may be some uh Trauma from blunt force trauma to the head that goes on there's no evidence of that at all in Chloe are child strangulation cases rare exceedingly rare I've never seen a case of one and why are they rare in a situation where you have a small child particularly even a real small child uh the head is larger in proportion to the neck and so it would be a lot easier a lot more ergonomic to just basically to be able to smother the child than it would be to strangle all right so not so simple not so straightforward different perspectives different theories different evidence different AR arguments and obviously there was more evidence presented by both sides but this was a good snapshot of the trial and when the case was eventually handed off to the jury they deliberated deliberated for three days but look what happened as to count one is the jury able to reach a unanimous verdict no we are not would further deliberation be fruitless yes it would be yeah so the jury actually acquitted Kelsey Thomas of child and endangerment but they were hung on that murder charge they could not come to a decision on guilt or not guilty but then you fast forward several months later and there's a retrial the difference is this time the defense opted for a bench trial meaning this would go in front of a judge sometimes you do that because you feel that a judge has a better grasp of the law the particularities of the law than a jury would have there's some advantages to going in front of a judge versus a jury sometimes the jury can be inflamed by Passion there's more people and this was in front of Judge Lucy gimon now I will tell you in this trial the judge did believe that Thomas killed her daughter that she used the pajamas to strangle Khloe to death but she decided that prosecutors did not meet their burden to prove murder that there was no malice here there was no intent to kill there was no premeditation so what did she do she convicted Miss Thomas of involuntary manslaughter that this was an act of recklessness an act done in a fit of anger and frustration part of her ruling says quote Kelsey's explanation of how she killed her daughter provides the only reasonable explanation of her daughter's death this is what she wrote in her ruling Kelsey's description matches both the medical evidence from the autopsy and physical evidence found at the scene no one would know better than Kelsey how death occurred and the end Kelsey Thomas was sentenced to 5 years in prison but with credit for time served she was released early after only serving a fraction of her sentence this was based on Iowa's sentencing guidelines so she's free to go now I will say this for those of you who agree with this for those of you who do not agree with this I always say this but even with a verdict in many cases and I believe especially in Kelsey Thomas's case people will continue to debate what actually happened to 5-year-old Chloe that's clear but the one thing that we can all agree on this should never have happened that's all we have for you right now here on sidebar everybody thank you so much for joining us and as always please subscribe on Apple podcast Spotify YouTube wherever you get your podcasts I'm Jesse Weber speak to you next time [Music]