Gaël Rivière | Rising Phoenix: What Does It Take? | Episode 2

This podcast is brought to you by the creators  of the Emmy award winning, Rising Phoenix.   Supported by global partners  Adidas and Procter and Gamble,   the proud makers of Oral-B, Pampers and Gillette.   Hello, my name is Matt Stutzman. I'm a four  time Paralympian and a silver medalist.   And I'm Michael Johnson,  four time Olympic champion.   Welcome to our podcast, 'Rising  Phoenix: What Does It Take?' We'll introduce you to some of the  world's greatest Paralympians.   Kind of like me.   Kind of like you! You'll hear about their  life stories, what it takes to get this far,   and their hopes for Paris 2024 and beyond. So I know we're having an awesome time here   in Paris, and I can already see all  the banners up for the warm up event.   The warm up event? That's what we're  calling the Olympics now? Okay.   I mean, you did ask! No, that works. It's   before the Paralympics, so that works! I do know that you competed on home soil,   right? So how does that feel compared to  any of the other Games you've been to?   Yeah, you know it's interesting, because you  would think that it's easier competing at home,   but when you're used to competing, because you  rarely compete in an Olympic Games at home,   it just doesn't happen. So when it does, it's  sort of unfamiliar, and so, when you're used to   the unfamiliar, and your whole routine, my whole  routine was based on always competing in another   country. So in fact, my coach and I decided,  'You know what, we're going to make this feel   unfamiliar. We're going to pretend we're not at  a home Olympics,' so that we could be familiar.   Did you pretend you were just at another games?  What country were you pretending to be in?   We didn't go quite that far! We didn't take  it all the way to name the actual country.   Well, you can actually compare notes  with our guest today, Gaël Rivière.   That's good, that's good. It's pretty good.   Rolling your 'r'. The way I rolled the 'r'? I   practised that for like an hour. Well you got good at it!   He plays cécifoot. Which is actually called,  that's blind soccer or blind football in France. Gaël is also a silver medal winner at  the 2012 London Games. He's also European   Championship winner 2022. Gaël, welcome  to 'Rising Phoenix: What Does It Take?'   Welcome! Thank you. Thank you for inviting me.   It's good to have you. So, I'm going to start everything off at the   beginning, because when I first walked in and I  met you, I noticed that you had a soccer ball...   Yeah. ...that makes noise. And before we get started, I   wanted to let you know that I was born without any  arms, so one of my favourite sports was soccer,   and no joke, I was playing right forward, and the  ball came in a little high, hit it off the chest,   dropped it to the ground, shot and scored, and  immediately got called for hands! And I'm like,   I was like, "I have no arms. How do I get  called for hands in soccer?" But apparently,   he said it hit my shoulder, right? And yeah, so  I got my first goal ever taken away from me.   ‘We are athletes and we have a date  with history. A lifetime of ambitions,   efforts, hopes, comebacks. We are ready.’ Anyway, I wanted to share that with you. Gaël, you're one of the athletes picked  to be part of the '100 Day Countdown' for   the Paralympics. What was the message  that you were trying to get across?   We just want to use the Paralympic  Games to change people's minds,   you know? It's very important for us. Of course  we, as an athlete, my priority is to win,   and of course, it’s what we do on the pitch.  But, we know that by the Paralympic Games,   we can change the people mind regarding people  with disabilities in society. So I really want   to use this to try and change the mind of the  people on disability and to show them that it’s   not because you are a disabled person, that you  can not reach a high level in the sports or in   other part of their life. I think by sport, we  can show the ability behind the disability.   ‘We want to make you shout, sing, cry.  To make you prouder than ever before.’ I want to talk a little bit more about your  involvement in this Paralympic games and it   being a home games. But first I want to get an  understanding of, you know, how you came to love   football and how you got started in the sport? Yeah, I was born blind in a small island   called Ile de la Reunion, 'Reunion Island', close  to Madagascar. But when the French national team   won the World Cup in 1998, I think I was  like all the French children. I just want   to play football. I don't really care about  my disability, about being blind. I just want   to find a way to play with my neighbour, with my  cousins. And to do that, we just find a solution,   and it'll be crazy to think about that now,  but we just put a plastic bag over the ball to   have a ball with noise, and we play like this. At  that time, I think I played almost every day with   a plastic bag on the ball, and probably I have  an industrial consumption of plastic bags! Not   really ecological, but it was another time! And,  yeah, I started to love football. When you are   a child, you don't really care about disability.  You just want to play and it’s crazy because the   children could have a lot of imagination to make  things apparently impossible, possible. But the   strange thing is that, I talked about that with  a Brazilian player, and he also said to me that   he also used a plastic bag over the ball and  it’s only 10 years later that I discovered that   there was a football for blind with a specific  ball. I started to play blind football in the   school for blind people, and currently I play  football in Bondy, Bondy sissy football club,   which is the city where Mbappé started to  play football. We created a club there. I   played a lot of time just with a plastic bag. So when you were growing up playing football   with the ball with a plastic bag on it, you  also played with able-bodied kids, right?   Exactly. And so they just adapted   to the ball? Like, how did that work? They just want me to be involved   in the game. So when I have the ball, they try  to adapt the way they play. But sometimes when I,   when I was not too bad, when I was good,  they started to, you know, try to play   like they will play with other people without  a disability. And I think it's with that, that   I get some abilities that were very useful for  me when I really started to play blind football   in competition. Of course, I didn't expect to  play blind football for the French national team ‘He steps up right footed, saved by the  goalkeeper. It rebounds back for Narjes,   tackled by his own man Fangmann, coming towards  the dying embers of this first period. Can Germany   force this one back into the area and into  the danger zone? The answer is no as Rivière   breaks over the halfway line now. The German  defenders trying to retreat as he comes down the   right side of the area, and he finds the near  corner! The pendulum swings back in the French   favour again. And that is such an anti climax! So Gaël, I see that you brought a few things   with you. So, explain what you've brought. I brought a blind football ball and I also brought  a mask that we use to play blind football.   This ball is a little bit smaller  than the regular football, right?   Yeah, it's a ball closer to the  ball used in the football inside.   So, I'm gonna pass this to Michael. You guys  can hear that. There you go. When I picked it up   earlier, it was a lot heavier than I expected. Yeah.   Oh it is heavy! It is heavy. And what's inside of that?   In the ball we have small iron little  balls that move and make a sound.   I always call it a soccer ball.  So what would you call, is it a   football? Is that how you would say that? I say football because we use the word   football in France. Sure okay! It's because you use your foot. Because you use your foot. That makes sense!   So you got the ball that makes noise, so that's  how you track it. And then also on the table is   your superhero mask, as I like to call it!  Can you, kind of, explain to the audience,   what is it? Like it’s not like you  go to Walmart and you buy, you know,   a sleep mask. This is a pretty cool thing. The mask is, just to be sure that every   player are in the same situation, to be sure that  every player are totally blind. But personally,   it doesn't make a lot of difference to  have the mask or not, because, of course,   I'm blind! But I guess for Michael it  would be a little bit different maybe.   It would be, yeah, it would be quite  different! Do you mind if I put it on?   Yeah. So,   you definitely are a superhero  now. Oh here. There we go.   Oh, did you see that? I did! Oh my goodness! How about that. You're gonna take my place   in the team, I think! No, no!   I have one more question now actually,  how do you know where the goal is? To know where the goal is, we have a member of the  staff beyond the goal, beyond the goalkeeper. The   staff is called a guide. It's like a coach for the  offensive players. And he gives information like   you are on the 6 metre or you are on the 5 metre  etc… And when you have the feeling that you could   score, you can shoot. But you use the information  given by the guide beyond the goal to know where   you have to shoot. Wow.   And of course, your goalkeeper, the goalkeeper  is, is not visually impaired, and your goalkeeper   also give to his defences information about where  the offensive player are. Around a blind football   pitch you have a lot of people shouting,  and you know, its like in ordinary football,   as a player, you only take into account maybe  10% of the information from your conscious   So you're saying Michael could be a goalie? Yeah.   There you go! I'm feeling the pressure   already! I'm feeling the pressure already! I think you're a better option than me. It’s a lot heavier than I thought it would be.   Put it in front of Matt's face.  It kind of looks like your head. It kind of does, doesn't it? It is a lot heavier than I thought   it would be. Yes it is.   Gaël I have a question, In blind football,  do they head the ball at all, like,   do you use your head at any point in time?  Or is it mainly just stay on the ground?   I never seen someone score the goal by head. I  bet it could happen, but it would be a mistake. Sure So I mean,   I want to understand, like, the difference  between blind football and regular football.   Yeah. So, how would you describe it?   Maybe in few words, it's football, first of  all. The main message I will give every time,   blind football is football. We have just made  some adjustments to make it possible for blind   people to play, and the first is the ball, like  you could hear, it makes noise. And the other   adjustment is that we are only four players on the  pitch, and the pitch is 20 metres and 40 metres,   so it's smaller than the big, ordinary soccer.  We have also another important adjustment,   is that behind the goal, we have a guide who  give information to the offensive players to make   them able to locate the goal, and he also give  information like, ‘you have two players to pass’,   ‘you could shoot’ etc, etc. The last, main  adaptation is that when you move on the pitch   and you don't have the ball between your feet, you  have to say, "Voi." It means, 'I go' in Spanish.   It's 'voi'? It's 'voi',   yeah. ‘Voi’. Okay.   And you have to say this word, like, "Voi,  voi, voi," when you move, to make the other   people able to know where you are, and to  avoid, you know, shock and to avoid injury.   Does your team say ‘voi’, and then  the other team say something else?   Every team around the world try to say ‘voi’. If everybody's saying the same word, then don't   you, like, sometimes maybe pass to the wrong team?  Like, how do you know the difference between,   like, your teammate and the opposing team? In general, you are able to recognise the 'voi's'   of your, of your colleagues and we train a lot to  be able to know, every time, where our colleagues   are on the pitch. It's tactical training, you  know, to be in the good part of the pitch in   every moment of a game. So, we have to know where  our colleagues are, sometimes we make mistakes,   of course, and that happens in sports. But yeah,  you recognise the voice, and you have to know   where your colleagues are, so in general, you know  when you are when you hear a sound, if it's one of   your colleagues, or if it's one of the opponents. I wonder if like the ball skill handling   may be even better, because,  you're not relying on sight?   Yeah, of course, we use a lot the sound. We use a  lot the feeling we have between feet and the ball.   We use also something very strange called 'the  sense of mass', we call that in French. I don't   know what is a good translation, but that only  means that when you arrive on the border, when you   arrive in front of someone, you are able to know  that he is here, even if it doesn't make sense,   just because the echo localisation, you know, that  make some reverberation on the sound and make you,   in a situation, to know that you have an obstacle  in front of you. So, we have a lot of other   abilities that we use to be able to play, but I  don't really think we hear better than non-blind   people, I just think that we use the information  we received. For sure, if you put the mask on   your eyes, you will probably discover that you  hear a lot of things. And of course, you wear   this thing every time, but you don't, your brain  doesn't hear the information you receive. But,   in our case, we use all the information  we get, because we are not able to see.   So basically, he just admitted  he's a superhero! He's got a mask.   Got the mask! Yeah! And he can sense, he can sense things,   which is amazing! Actually, that brings up another  point. My first games was London 2012, and one of   the things that I got to do was be a part of track  and field when the visually impaired did the long   jump. And what was amazing to me, was the respect  of the audience. So yeah, in blind football,   the rules are a little bit different. But how  does that impact, like, how the crowd reacts?   It's more like in tennis, you know? When the  player plays, the audience have to be quiet,   of course, because you have to understand  that on the pitch, on blind football,   you have a lot of sound. You have the coaches,  you have the ball, you have the players,   and you have the guide behind the goal. So you  have a lot of, a lot of sounds, and it's very   difficult. The most difficult is not to hear the  sound, but is to use the good sound and to put the   other sounds out of your brain, to be able to take  the good decision. So if the audience make noise,   like classic football, it would be very difficult  for us to hear the ball and the other sounds. So   the rule is simple, you have to be quiet during  the game, but you can applaud, you can shout when   the game is stopped by the referee. For example,  after a goal, you can, of course, make noise. ‘With France. A good pass, and  maybe...they shoot and score! Scored!’ ‘Ladies and gentlemen, the silver medalists  representing France! Gaël Rivière!   You won the silver medal in 2012. For many,  the London Games really turned a dial up on how   disability sport was viewed, and just wondering  if you think Paris can do the same, in terms of   increasing the support for Paralympic athletes? Yeah, to be honest, for me, London Paralympics   were very important because I discovered that  people could love para sports. Could love the way   we play. Could share with us the emotion we have  by playing blind football. Before that, I had the   feeling that people don't really care about blind  football, they just want to come to see because   of their curiosity, they don't just want to see  how disabled people can play, but they aren’t   normally involved in the intensity, in the game  in general. And in London, this was absolutely   different. People come to see Paralympic Games.  The number of people was very high. But, this   wasn’t the only good thing, the other thing is  that people came, they came because they wanted to   see high level sport. They were very interested,  not by the disability, but by the results,   by the technical skills, etc, etc. But they were  just interested by sports, and for me, that makes   a big difference. And I think, I hope, and I'm  pretty sure, actually, that we will be better   than London in Paris, not just because we want to  beat him every time! Now, to be honest, London is,   of course, a reference for us. We want to make it  like London, and I hope we will make it better.   So this is the first time my kids get to come  watch the games, and I asked them what sport they   wanted to go to, and my oldest is like, "We have  to see blind football!" So, you're going to have   fans from us, for sure. So you are actually on  the board of the National Paralympic Committee of   France. And, what kind of things have you been  doing to, I guess, prepare for these games?   The Board of the French National Paralympic  Committee is very, very large. We are   involved in a lot of questions, a lot of different  questions. Of course, international questions,   because we have to take a position on the vote on  the IPC General Assembly, for example. And one of   the more difficult topics we had to decide on, was  the question of Russian athletes. Sometimes they   are not really support the government position.  So it's very difficult, for example, to take   a balanced position on that. But we are also  involved in the organisation of the Paralympic   Games in Paris, not really on the organisation  of the sport, of, competition. But, for example,   we create something called the 'Club France',  which is a place where people could come and meet   the French athletes, and so, we have to  decide the place we want to put this club,   the budget, etc. So, it's very important to  take the good decision to have a good event,   a good experience, but also to save the finances  of the committee. And of course, we have to also,   to take decision of the qualification criteria for  French athletes, etc. So, we have a lot of jobs to   do. And it’s very interesting for me, of course,  I'm an athlete, but it's very interesting for   me to see how the things work behind the pitch. Gaël, many of our guests who joined the podcast,   they stepped away from training to join us.  You stepped away from the office. So talk   about how you balance being a lawyer and also  a footballer for the French national team?   Yeah, you know, I'm a footballer in the French  national team. So I do sport at high level, but   we are not professional, so we don't receive any  salary to train and to participate in Games as a   French athlete. So, we have to, to get money, and  to do that, I have a professional life. Of course,   it's a challenge every day to combine my life  in the law firm and my life on the pitch. But   I'm very lucky because I do two things that I  love, I do two things I'm very passionate by.   But, I am good and I have to focus  every time. And, you know, a lawyer,   it's not only a job during the morning or the  afternoon, but also during the night sometimes,   so yeah. I could not do the two things at  the same time in the beginning. But for the   Paralympic Games, I discussed with the law firm,  and I say to them, okay, I want to be involved in   Paralympic Games in Paris. It's very important  for me. Maybe it's my last opportunity to take   part to Paralympic Games. And I think because they  know I work a lot in the law firm, they agreed,   and they just say, "Okay, you could have the  partial time, and you could have the time you   need to prepare." It's also good for them to, you  know, to make small communication around the fact   that they have a lawyer involved in Paralympic  Games, Paris. Not too bad for them, I guess.   Yeah, yeah! So, I'm trying to wrap   my head around all this, because you're a lawyer,  okay? You're a footballer. You're on the national   Paralympic Committee. You're also the Vice  President of Handisport Federation. Like, what   makes you just want to be like, 'I'm just gonna  do all of this stuff. Let's just pile on as much   as possible.' And then you're also going to be  awesome at all this stuff at the same exact time!   I often say that my main quality to  do that is that I'm not a parent,   I don't have a girlfriend right now. I have time.  So yeah, like I say, I'm really passionate about   everything I do. I consider myself a lucky guy.  You know, like I explained at the beginning,   I was born blind in small island, and I didn't  expect doing everything like I do now. So,   I see every day like, you know, something amazing  happened to me. And sometimes I just say, "Yeah,   it's, it's really me!" I say to other people,  because I sometimes, I just think that I maybe   not have enough quality to do that. But it  happened and I try to do my best every time.   That's awesome. You really have given   me a really good insight, not only to what your  sport is, but the superhero that you are, and all   the stuff that you do. I feel like, if I need a  lawyer, I know who to call now, so that's good!   Gaël, as a disabled man living in the city, I  wonder what, you know, you hope the legacy will   be for the Paris Paralympics, not just  from a Paralympic standpoint, but just,   you know, for disabled people, you know,  what this games will do for the city?   Difficult question. Yeah, there are  two ways to see the thing. The one way,   is to say that we will be not on the point we want  to be. Because, for example, the subway being not   fully accessible for people with disabilities,  even if we made some progress on that, but will   be difficult for people with disabilities to  use a subway in Paris. The other way to see,   is that we use the Paralympic Games to make big  progress on the accessibility of our city. So,   because I'm an optimistic person, I prefer  to see the progress and hoping that we will   continue in this way after the Paralympic  Games. But for sure, we've not arrived.   In 1996 I got the opportunity to compete in  Atlanta, a home Games for me, being an American.   And I think I speak for all of the athletes,  American athletes, in that Games, it was just   the most exciting, you know, time for us, just to  build up knowing that, you know, we're going to be   able to compete in front of a home crowd. So, I  just wonder what your thinking is, you know, how   you're feeling about it as we come into this Paris  Games? And I think the blind football is going to   be competed in the shadow of the Eiffel Tower,  which sounds like that's going to be amazing.   So just give us your thoughts on, you know, as  we're getting closer to the Paralympic games now,   how you're feeling about it being here at home? Yeah, you know, it's amazing, actually! First of   all, to be involved in Paralympic Games is  something amazing, actually. To have the   opportunity to play in your home country, it's  Incredible. Not so much athletes have this kind   of opportunity in their life, so it's, of course,  incredible. But also a little bit stressful, of   course, because, you know, in my situation, every  time I talk about blind football, I talk about   Paralympic games with my colleague, my friend,  with my family, etc. Now they will come and we   have to deliver! And so yeah, it's a little  bit stressful, but when you are an athlete,   you live for this kind of moment. You want this  kind of adrenaline. You want this kind of moment,   and I hope I will have the opportunity to,  to live it and to enjoy it, and of course,   to enjoy it, we have to be good in Paris. That's  most important. I think, maybe after the games,   even if we lose, I will say it was amazing, etc,  but right now I just have one thing in my mind,   it's to win in Paris. And yeah, I think the  thing will be really amazing if we are good.   So when you win your gold medal,  are we going to celebrate by   going to the top of the Eiffel Tower? Yeah, the stadium is something amazing. First, I   will think that the good place for blind football  will probably in the stadium soccer like Parc   de Prince, you know, where the PSG play. But after  thinking, the Champs de Mars, close to the Eiffel   Tower, is probably the best place we could have. I too will be competing in Paris. This will be my   fourth Paralympic Games. Okay!   We are actually, our sport is within walking  distance of the Eiffel Tower, so it is on our list   to come watch you, it’s going to be awesome. Gael, we hope you enjoy your home Games,   we'll be cheering for you guys. Thanks so much  for coming in to, to join our podcast. We better   let you get back to work. Thank you.   It's going to be awesome.  Don't get too nervous, okay!   I will try! Good luck for Paris! Thank you so much for being on.   Thanks so much. You've been listening to,   'Rising Phoenix: What Does It Take?' A  podcast brought to you by the creators   of Emmy award winning, Rising Phoenix. Supported by global partners Adidas and   Procter and Gamble, the makers  of Oral-B, Pampers and Gillette.   If you like what you listen to and  want to know more about Rising Phoenix,   check out the details in our show notes. Remember to follow us on our podcast app so   you don't miss any episodes. We  have amazing people coming up.   This is a Persephonica production in  partnership with Harder Than You Think.   ♪ I’m a rising phoenix ♪ ♪ I rise above you ♪♪