Will the new-look Champions League be more exciting?

Intro welcome to the athletic FC podcast with me ioa kimer today it's all about the Champions League in Europe it's goodbye to the group stage and that's not the only thing they've changed you'll probably notice they've dabbled with the music as well to talk us through it we've got a football news reporter Matt Slater and Phil Ha is back with us as well so why is the Champions League changing good to have you with us jent um I'm currently in mono ahead of the Champions League draw and uh I tell you what it's fevera pitch here it is nice man I've spotted a few players here zenetti Figo last night I'm just going to leave it there Jets it's an absolute Joy but let's get into this right um it's start with you Matt because you know you spent time spending you spend a lot of time writing stories um around UFA competitions um I've just done an explainer video for UA that's actually why I'm here of this new format from where you're sitting can you explain it from your point of view how you see this format playing out sounds like you should do it a why what I know this is a The new format major Cop Out basically I'm let you all right well yeah sing in the sea this morning he can't be expect to do more than that exactly all right fair enough um so yeah out with the group stage so the um the eight groups four team groups that's gone uh in with uh a league format so 36 teams uh they're going to play each other well not going to play each other they're going to play eight games uh four at home four away not home home and away so eight different teams all your results go on one table um the top eight in the table go through automatically to the round of 16 uh as before and teams that finish ninth through is it 24th or 25th uh it's the next 16 don't they they go into a playoff uh home and away two legs and then the winners of th those playoffs go meet the eight teams that qualified via the league format and then we just go on as we did the last 20 odd years or so all the way to the final um that's it same in the Europa League same in the conference League uh yeah four four more teams 36 uh teams in each competition a load more games I think it's 189 I think it's up from 125 games to 189 so a lot more content a lot more you know tickets to sell a lot more TV inventory for everyone to enjoy yeah we're going to go into that a little later on but but Phil as a football fan what do you what do you make of these proposed changes there's a large part of me that wants to be really cynical about them and and you you can be easily cynical Matt mentioned the the increasing games and we got this weird thing at the moment where the pressure to reduce the calendar has never been greater clubs and players um the the the sort of rush to increase it um and and to you know to pack it out more has never been more intense on the part organizations like UEFA and FIFA but there are certain things that that I like about it every time look at the the group stage in the Champions League as it stands you you get the feeling that there are too many cakewalks in there for the um for your top seed the strongest clubs and and the group stages tend to be too simple for them that's not to say that they aren't going to go through in the new format as it stands but because the way it works you're going to be playing um two teams from from each of the four parts and and obviously they are seeded in terms of strength it means that in the group stages you are potentially going to get some cracking games you know you're going to get some sort of Hollywood fixtures like Manchester City against Real Madrid um you know that that type of of thing is going to come up at a much earlier stage of of the competition whether or not it means that um that that will make the group stage more entertaining or or more dicey for those clubs remains to be seen I still think you'll see the line share of of the favorites progressing and and probably progressing quite comfortably um but I can see the Merit for a for a shakeup I just think that the expansion to to 36 teams is is a little on the large side um and does feel like UEFA and FIFA whenever it comes around to anything like this are obsessed with the idea of going big without really thinking about whether from a competitive point of view or or an entertainment point of view that's the right thing to do yeah well Why did they decide to scrap the group stage? this morning actually I I caught up uh with some of the heads from UEFA to talk to him about this new competition I was very lucky to catch up with uefa's head of Club competitions Tobias huk and asked him why they decided to scrap the group stage in general we always think improvements are good and it's better to change before before you get asked to change but here the process started long time ago um maybe four five years ago there was a discussion with all stakeholders where it was identified that maybe as of the cycle 2427 we we should look and analyze what's the future of the champions league and doing this analyze we identified some weaknesses in the old group stage format one of the points we we started with was analyzing that the competitiveness of the group stage was indeed we had the feeling decreased in the group stage having maybe teams qualified very early after match day four five already on the other side as well the group stage format um didn't give much of diversity we had um three teams out of 32 who played so not not a lot and um we we had kind of the feeling matches were repeatedly or groups the same so we also know that um the Young Generation is watching football differently and all the this um is something which we wanted to see how we can change the competition competition there's a great um explainer on our website yesterday WR written by Peter rutzler um and it it did a really good job of breaking this down I must confess by the end of it I wanted to reverse my own car over myself um but even so I I just wanted to read out a little bit from it and this is um an explanation for why the the draw is going to be done digitally and it says UEFA says that if the entire draw was to to be completed manually around a, balls would be spread across at least 36 balls on stage and the whole process would take more than 3 hours now I don't know if our listeners are familiar with the Alan Partridge TV series but this reminds me a bit of when he's trying to pitch that idea of doing a new detective series to his boss um and his boss basically says there's too many of them and and and it surprises me that nobody at UEFA has kind of looked at that rationale for doing a digital draw and said you know does nobody think this might be too big you know not think there are too many involved in this but clearly not and and it clearly suits them to to have this this format um and I think it's probably safe to say that that money will be somewhere at the root of it yeah I I think that's a lot of conversations coming from a fair bit of fans in terms of the revenues um that would be raised from this but Matt you know from your perspective yeah League stage over group stage why do you think UA have gone down this route well I think the chat from UEA explained it pretty well I mean you can be cynical about these things of course you can and we probably will be um but if we just sort of take them you know at the at their word he's right the the group stage has become boring and Phil made this point too and we've had way too many groups that are decided after the fourth game and you've had these you know sort of match day six match day five match day six almost like sort of carabel cup rounds where you know kind of man city would sort of play their 80 numbers 87 88 89 n and you know and you'd be thinking what's the point here and and the Jeopardy and that's the key word that people always talk about in sort of TV uh when they talking about sport um would be that one team was sort of playing for3 million EUR it was it was you know there was there was nothing else at stake because that's how much a win was worth that was you know draw is worth a million there just was no Jeopardy right it was decided so that so that was that's a problem and I think by going to this league format where in theory every game should matter I'm sure we're going to get dead rubbers come come the eighth game too but you there's a potential to sort of improve your ranking there's going to be teams that are sort of trying to get into that kind of playoff um situation you know 12 teams get jettisoned and don't get that kind of safety net of going into the Europa League like we've had so you know I think that it is it is possible that we're going to have a sort of full Suite of games where there's something on the line so that that is that to me is an improvement that he was talking about what was the word he used did he s of say diversity of um of opponent was that it and again it's Phil's point that because they are dividing the the the teams into four seeded pots and that's this idea that you have to make it fair right you want you want those eight games because they're not home and away they are eight different teams you want them to be fair right so you're going to play two from po two from pot B two from pot C two from pot d right and this is all based on your performances in Europe over the last 5 years you know that coefficient that we've heard so much about over the over the over the over the last few years so you're going to have this sort of balanced set of fixtures but you are you know the big teams are going to have to play two other big teams the the poor teams well none of them are poor right but the weaker team's going to play two other weaker teams you know so there's going to be compet itive fixtures there's going to be the box office at the top and there's going to be some very you know every game sort of every team sorry you know has some games that are really going to be like massive and exciting and and winnable and I think and I think that's quite a good principle yeah Phil one thing they keep stressing to me here is the fact that I Why every game matters think as mat has just alluded to that every game matters so almost trying to translate it to people in terms of like you know what happens in one game might affect your team I.E when we make we might see the renegation battles in the Premier League for instance in the dying days of the Season For Eyes on TVs for fans to come to matches surely that element really does add a little spice to this I think it probably does um and and I would go as far as saying that the the draw will probably be as interesting for people this year as it has been for for a long long time because of the way it's been done previously you obviously if you were a follower of a club you wanted to know who was going to be in in your group but if you support Real Madrid or Manchester City Bayern Munich any of the the main players in this competition you knew that your group was unlikely to be particularly difficult and that at least two of the teams in it would be would be you know fairly comfortably beatable if if you were ining a good dat it is going to be going to be different now um I don't think it's the case that the previous group stage didn't have games that mattered once you your top seeds or your biggest clubs had gone through that that was still still the case but I think the the games in the last stages of this in theory should be more relevant and should make a difference to to what comes next I think the the the big point of interest is going to be how much pressure this puts on certain clubs um now that they are playing to the end of January in the in the group stage as opposed to it wrapping up much earlier um there's no doubt at all and it you know it goes without saying because of the rising fixtures uh fixture numbers but there's no doubt at all that the intensity of this competition is now at a different level than it was before yeah for sure right let's move on um Matt um that word's going to come back again I'm sure Super League um you know did the threat of the proposed European Super League have any impact on UEFA revamping this this competition um they don't sound do too dissimilar from where I'm sitting what are your thoughts well I mean the short answer is yes of course A potential “super league” but that's because everything to do with European football and how UEFA sort of conducts itself with the big clubs and the the endless sort of tinkering of their competitions is all about the threat of a super league you know this goes back 70 80 years this is not a new phenomenon um you know every time the clubs poke and press and push UEFA for more money it's near always about more money uh more games against their peer group you know you'll often hear sort of someone Grumble well it's isn't it ridiculous that Manchester United don't play Bayern more often or or and you're like well is it ridiculous I don't know I mean it might feel ridiculous to you but you are in different countries different competitions so you so this is an old debate you know if you go right back to why we have a champions league as opposed to a perfectly decent cup competition that ran from 1955 to I think 1991 was that you had a few years where the main you know the big stars got knocked out in the first round cuz it was a cup competition so I think famously there was a I think it was 87 I think it was it Napoli the Italian Champions played the Spanish Champions Barcelona in the first round I think AC Milan had a tough first round once that really upset Sylvia bisone not in Forest Liverpool you know these Marky fixtures in the first round loads of Jeopardy loads of Jeopardy but it was over too soon so that was the first move and then we've had in the '90s we had little tweaks you know they started to expand we started to invite non champions in it's always been about money and the threat of a super league because the clubs will say if you don't give us what we want all more games against the type of people we want to hang out with more money we will take the ball and I'll goal post and go elsewhere and and that's not knew so what we've got right now has been quite a long time in the planning there was a people of I think most people have forgotten about this but in around 2019 there was even there was a way worse idea that involved scrapping the three competitions and having sort of three leagues where um I think 24 was yeah I think the top pop was something like 24 if you like the Champions League bit would retain their places from season to season now that was about super league as you can get that was breaking the tie between domestic League qualification you know European football being a reward for performances in your domestic competition if you were just saying to you know real Barca Bayern man united you get to stay in the Champions League from year on year as long as you don't finish at the bottom and get relegated I mean that's that that's that's the super league and that was the idea that that the big clubs were running with for a while there was big push back from the Premier League and Bundesliga etc etc so that idea was sort of dropped and then the sort of dropping of that idea actually upset UV and real and barcel and those guys and they went off and did you know form Super League that all exploded and then we have this idea which is sort of kind of a compromise it is it does still ites still has that link you know you still qualify for it it still has the the the domestic leagues didn't didn't love it but they've sort of learned to live with it there was a route it was going to be 10 games they managed to get a bit of a compromise it's only eight games so it's this endless dance endless dance between the big clubs in UA and UA a tough spot you know they want to be you know I believe them they say they want to be fair and they want to distribute money and they want to have a they want they want to see Champions popping up all over the place and they want to help that League over there but every time they sort of be too Democratic the big clubs go oy you know we can leave and then what have you got so yes to you know the short answer is yes but it's the longer answer is it's it's always been that way and it's an endless dance between big clubs and UA that that weird idea that Matt's talking about there it was almost like a legacy Club model wasn't it where um UEFA wanted to ring fence certain clubs and it was poor really because as much as they might be saying we want Champions Here There and Everywhere they were kind of saying these are the clubs who are valuable to us and these are the clubs who who aren't and I mean you can walk that out for yourself but it's quite it's quite sort of blatant you know it being proposed in in that manner Matt one thing I I wanted to ask do we know and and if we do could you just refresh people on this how much more money this is worth if you can if you can sum it up um you know quite easily and I don't know whether that's that's possible in comparison to the previous Champions League because in order to saave off the Super League it's not more games that UEFA need to be offering up it's more money isn't it what well yeah I mean that's it but the way to get more money unfortunately is more games I mean that goes back to your earlier point about it's always bigger you know it's always bigger more inventory you know they'd love to be able to say to the broadcasters this is just going to be better right this is just going to be amazing so can you give us more money for it unfortunately that that has stopped working it stopped working for sort of almost everybody um you almost you almost it's got to the point where the only way to increase your media rights revenue is to give more games the Premier League's been doing that too so there's that so it went from 125 games to 189 games I know that when they were pitching the idea to clubs And discussing it and saying to everybody this is why we got to do it I think they wanted to boost the overall pot the overall pot that UEFA has to distribute to the clubs and member associations etc etc do all the good things they do but equally fun all lows and lows and lows of money to the clubs to stop them going off and forming a Super League they wanted to boost that by Third uh they just about got there um you know if you sort of kind of you know round things up and what have you uh now what that will mean uh for the clubs you know you know a typical Champions League type club that does well I think we're talking an extra 20 25 million you know on top of the sort of 40 50 million that they were getting for you know a relatively average season in Europe you know that's pretty significant absolutely signicant Ally in PSR terms oh absolutely look and and this is again this this sort of this big debate about European football and and uefa's role in the status quo you know why European football is the way it is why certain clubs are big why we have a big four a big six why that club in that League keeps winning it is UEFA and it is Champions League money that has done that it is this compounding effect you know you have your domestic budget if you like your old fashion budget your domestic TV deal your own commercial rights deals your ticket Revenue oh but that club there that just so happened to make the Champions League here's an extra 30 40 million oh and that gives you a great head start on qualifying for the next one oh brilliant there's another 30 40 million and again and again and again and you get these serial winners and you get these gaps appearing in leagues I think that's that's going to get worse and I think that is a concern yeah well Matt we've we've just spoken really about why UA might have considered this new format in in its new Why UEFA considered this format guys in particular but there's something we haven't spoken about and something you've written about in particular is that UEFA could also be facing legal action against this new format especially around the fact that it's called The Swiss format can you just break this down a little bit please this is amazing I know it's crazy isn't it well I'll do it quickly so so when they started talking about this idea it is complicated we've spent sort of you know however many minutes sort of trying to explain it and how many pieces we've done trying to explain it too it's it's it's it is a bit complicated and I think it's one of those things I've often sort of said to people I think we're almost going to have to see it to sort of really get our heads around it and see you know see it work and see whether we like it or not but quite early on a sort of shorthand for this idea was to call it a Swiss model a Swiss format and I was like well you know Switz got to do with it well it's to do with chess tournaments and chess has been using this system for over 100 years and I think it was a tournament in Switzerland that started it hence the fact it's called The Swiss format um now the idea is really simple right you have a chess tournament could have 100 200 people turn up how how do you decide who the winner is do you have a straight knockout like the old European Cup well that's a bit of a shame half of them are out you know before they barely started do you have a league well that's going to be a long old tournament isn't it so you go with a compromise right where you they play a selection of people you put all the results on the league and there you go now that's basically what UFA are going for isn't it you know you don't play everybody but we put the results on one table and we have top to bottom right so that's that's that's it now the crucial difference between the way chess does it a real Swiss format system is that the fixtures are redrawn after every game so in a chess tournament a winner plays a winner so it's constantly constantly redrawn and it's almost like sort of a ladder type system you are moving up or down the ladder so every game counts now you can do that in a chess tournament where it's basically just a hall with loads of tables and if you win the one game where you go over there and play that guy or girl over there it's really easy to do you couldn't really redraw a crossboard football competition that plays out to a Global TV audience where people are you know making TV schedules months in advance and selling advertising you know just think about the policing think about how fans would do that if you didn't know who you you know so so what youer have gone for isn't isn't really a Swiss format at all right so that's the long version of why people get angry when they go it's not a Swiss format now it turns out that there is a chap called bandra Shara who is a sports consultant who does come up with sports formats um he claims that he's been pitching this exact idea 36 teams you know a selection of games um not true Swiss format so you kind of you decide the fixtures before um he has been pitching this idea he claimed since 2013 he says I think he even claims that he copyrighted it in Chile before that he says he's been to UFA and it's spoken to UEFA about it he says more than a dozen times he claims to uh have talked about it at sports conferences and you know that that is true I know that's true uh and he's upset he thinks that effectively waer have pinched his format and uh he has sent them a cease and assist note to say don't do to uh the draw unless you invite me along to address the media unless you start calling it The Leandro Shara system uh and we do a commercial deal and etc etc etc etc now I wrote that story uh and at the time UEFA hadn't had not replied I can actually before I even reveal it in print I can tell you cuz on the claims made by match Vision match Vision that is the Andre shz company are baseless at best and are just another entry on a list of similar actions UA will defend its position though it is hardly worth the effort oh it's so exciting isn't it it is there you go do you know what I'm due to be at the draw I'm going to keep my eyes out to see if he actually makes it or if if the security Turf him off but I'm just thinking about this F like is I mean can you do that can you own a league can you own a tournament format I Can you own a tournament format? mean I didn't even know this was an industry that existed well well so so many things are intellectual property these days aren't they and I suppose we can sit and laugh and and scoff and say you can't do that and you know you can't trademark something that's sort of intangible if you you want to describe it in in that way but I guess if it is his concept and I guess if there is a paper trail showing that he has worked on this then perhaps he he will he will have a claim um we we'll see soon enough um but I think you can safely say that you're not going to have to fly home from Monaco this instant I I I it would be the the biggest turnup in in the history of the universe if UFA were to abandon the draw on the basis of that they'll um they'll fight it out won't they yeah for sure all right well I tell Who makes the changes? you what let's uh hear a little more from those in charge of making the changes we've been speaking about uh Stefan asmo is in charge of strategic development of uefa's competitions he's been telling me actually what the advantages of the changes to the Champions League could be we like the the previous format it was good the next one will be even better we think why because we are adding ingredients more uh balanced more um uncertainty more unpredictability and this will lead to a much more Dynamic uh system the leak phase will be uh interconnected there will be this all the matches will have an influence on each other and with all the matches that we'll have between the top teams we think that we are adding ingredients to a a great formula already so it will be even better even better listen to him Phil even better all the ingredients are there um it's the first time since 1999 the champions league is expanding in size by welcoming four extra teams to it is that good or are we going back to this conversation around fixture congestion from your perspective well there's going to be fixture congestion there's no question about that um and you you've got this on top of FIFA's Club World Cup which is still to be sorted out in in a lot of respects but is causing angst for I don't so much don't think so much the clubs I think the clubs can see the financial value of it but for coaches and players do not really want to be doing that at at the end of of a season um you remember Manchester City um player recently had him my head that it was rodri but it might have been Ruben Diaz who tweeted or Instagram the photo of the schedule for Manchester City this season and he was saying point of view you know being a city player and it was absolutely stacked with games um so in the debate about you know looking after players physically Ally and and protecting the mental health and and everything else um this is not going to go down well and and it's not going to help on on that front but I I totally hear what Matt's saying and and he's right anytime you want to make more money from a competition you pretty much have to to expand it and I guess if you're going to expand it you have to make it slightly different otherwise people feel like they're literally just tapping into exactly the same competition with more teams floating around in it and because of the way that the not the group stage but the initial stage is going to be it will will feel different this time round when the fixtures drop and it's different teams in in every game that is you know a m change really from from how it was previously um but I think again I I don't see this doing anything positive for the the disparity that you find in domestic leagues I think quite the opposite I thought you were going to jump in there m sorry mate no I just like I couldn't agree more in terms of that disparity point in terms of you know UEA has do have sympathy I mean because it it it does if it if it if it was to sort of stand up and defend the little guy the big guys would go it it has at times over the years got bold and and said you know we're not doing that and they've pushed back and what we've had in the last sort of five well certainly post Super League was UEFA has got very close to the big clubs European Club association they they're working pretty closely now and and it is now a proper joint venture you know you waa are sort of slowly losing control of their big Club competitions and some some say well that's no bad thing right you know you waa go over there be a governing body go go go do that stuff you know get out of the business of being a competition organizer because you know that's that that's complicated and there are uh conflicts of interest and and um you know are are you really the best at it you know we're pretty good at it you know we we're you know we're at the calace so you know some of these tensions have been there a long time and they they flare up what we've got now I think is something that has come after a period of real upheaval I think the clubs are are pretty you know they want to give it a go they they've got a lot of what they wanted the domestic leagues I think are like well it could have been a lot worse we can live with this they are nervous they're nervous about things like well it is now a league it is actually a league I thought we did leagues we're the leagues this was supposed to be a cup competition and we've let it become a league so there's there's an obvious sort of warning for the future there and I think the other thing is that they're really worried about and they were very worried about when it was going to be 10 games is UEFA really wants weekends that's where the most valuable games are yeah and when you start adding games it becomes really hard to put them in midweeks and and everybody knows that if you could have Champions League games at the weekend much bigger TV audiences but that's the domestic football have always gone no that's us we own the weekends so there's a there's a sort of tension there so there's a few that makes a question if I can just jump in Matt it given the way that this is now starting to get so congested and you're talking about you know it basically looks to me like they're going to start running out of midweeks to be able to fill across various competitions what what are going to be the first things to give what what are domestic leagues or UEFA or FIFA going to start dispensing with because if they want to keep expanding or keep creating new competitions it it stands the reason that eventually the year is just full and there's no there is no literally no space so so what goes well Phil you that's a really good question was you be of a point I should have made before the the Cal the fight for calendar the fight for space is is the big thing right in sport everyone is Cricket you name it it's it's the same story and what UAA and FIFA really want is they want 18 team leagues maximum they want one domestic cup and they want they want you know a control of the calendar and they want you know blocks for their bits and everyone to sort of you know and that's the so which which League which country is most threatened by by that 18 Team league one cup competition it's us we're the most threatened now there are other you know La Liga there's others you know that have 20 teams you wa for have been quite quite well it was quite they're not even been quiet about it anymore you know hining times goes to 18 guys they don't they don't like to sort of you know order people to do it but they they really want it you know France went to 18 teams and they dropped their second cup competition England is is out on a bit of a limb having two two cups and and the and the two extra teams in the in the top flight so so there's going to be pressure and I think to answer your question it's that second cup competition has been looking vulnerable for a while I think it's I don't know how many years it's got left I really don't it's it it it fulfills a really important role in in our ecosystem it is a way to sort of funnel some Premier League money to the efl because the Premier League clubs take part in it and it's one of the efl's big money Spinners you know the fact that big clubs play in it and often make the final it's valuable to the FFL so if you take that away you will have to sort of send more money down the pipe which they should do anyway and is all part of that whole new deal conversation but it's becoming really hard to justify and it's becoming really hard to fit in and I think we've already isn't there a story today which I've only barely sort of read read properly that people are upset because the European teams are the way they're sort of seated in the the caribel cup third round you know compromises to our competitions are having to be made to fit this stuff in and then of course you've already mentioned the club World Cup there's a big ride about that that is an enormous tournament that's going to have a KnockOn effect on one the club's own Ambitions to do their own tours for their you know mainly for their sponsor ISM for their overseas fans but also rest you know where do where do the players at the very best teams where when do they go on holiday do they go on holiday I don't know yeah um Phil we' we've spoken about the commercial aspect Fans & the new format we've spoken about UE we've spoken about the clubs in general but we haven't spoken about the fans uh I just sort of think as as a fan a few a couple of extra games that you're going to travel to Spain or France or wherever can't be so bad for them surely and no some people will look at it like that you do have some clubs like Manchester City uh where fan base don't seem to particularly warm to European football and the Champions League in in general it won't be for for everybody and I'm sort of conscious more and more as well of how little heed um television scheduling and and scheduling generally tends to pay to to traveling supporters sometimes very little to to none at all I I also think and a few people have written about this and I think it's a really good subject um that I don't know but some point we can maybe address it more length is how westernized the competition is becoming and and how in heavily dominated the champions league is by clubs based in Western Europe it is a struggle for clubs from the the Old Eastern block or or that neck of the woods to get themselves not only into the competition but to make a a proper dent in it and I understand why you know the money is in Western Europe the money is predominantly in the Premier League but your richest leagues are and or your best paid players and your wealthiest Club clubs are um to to this side of of Europe um so for supporters I don't think the Champions League you know those who travel in the Champions League a lot and bear in mind you know how many years City have been in it and Arsenal have been in it and and you know Real Madrid Barcelona Bayern Munich there aren't that many new destinations that are springing up where you think God that' be a fun trip you know the days when we used to go on preseason with leads to lubiana and have the equivalent of like a 13-day stag do you know um it it's cuz the wine is cheap in everything's cheap in Slovenia beautiful beautiful place but it's it there I don't think there's a lot more mystery in this so yes there are more games and if you enjoy traveling and a lot of people do and if you and you know if if it's more games that you want great they're on a plate for you um but it is fundamentally I think still the same competition with the same protagonists in it so I just I've just uh I enjoyed your um I know Alexander sephr and the UFA president would have enjoyed as well your your your message there for the Slovenian tourism board but in terms of in terms of but in terms of um I agree Li is lovely but um in terms of places to go new places to go how how would you feel about Miami or New York because you know I wonder how long it is now the last I heard nether were were officially in Europe um in in the same way that you know the the idea of um a team from the copper coming to to play in the Euros or a team in the Euros going to play in the the cup America um seems well as pointless as Australia being in the Eurovision cont uh the song contest really um but again you you can understand why those discussions are taking place at a high level because money um but I think I think Matt makes a really good point you're almost starting to feel like there are no boundaries to any of this stuff anymore that whether or not it's a European competition or whether or not it's a domestic La Liga game or Premier League game or or whatever else it could Embrace or move to or involve any any part of the globe really because that's the way that everybody seems to be thinking if if there's money to be made anywhere else and America seems to be at the moment USA where the money is to be made then people are open to to making it happen whether or not it should happen whether or not it's tradition whether or not it makes any sense at all so as as outlandish as a you know game in Miami sounds in the Champions League you do kind of Wonder yeah all right finally um we Theme tunes changes touched on it at the top Matt um theme tune it's changed oh yes lots of changes to get your head around uh I mean personally sing it sing it for us I mean look the Champions and there's weird Spanish bit something's missing I think there's a few trumpets missing why have they done that I mean to be honest it's not that different no and to be fair they tweaked it before I think I remember reading they they've done it loads of times actually and it's often quite subtle it's it's essentially the same thing right it's still what is it Z do the priest isn't it that's handles Mah right with with champions in various langues the best the greatest yeah yeah exactly yeah yeah I don't think it's changed that much I've not properly listened to them back to back but uh yeah I think it's a small tweak it's still look that's there's a serious point to make here and I did write about this a few years ago I will try and plug it on online um one of the the champions league is a remarkable success story in terms of like creating a competition I know it was based on the European Cup but the star ball The Anthem the way the the way the games look theaa sort of took they took the games away from the clubs they all look the same they have that Sheen of quality right from the off they sort of kind of like you know when they started to sort of sketch things out this is going to be the best and that is why it has done so well it has this Sheen of quality people often talk about sort of such and such being the Champions League of what or whatever right the Champions League denotes quality it it's and all the bits about it are are clever and they they were all done on purpose so in terms of like a competition and a brand it's spectacularly successful people people home in on it don't they it's it's not pario the champions league and and in your midweek nights when it's Champions League football it's the only show in town you you know it's all that there is um I know you have domestic football um in in lower leagues and and everything else but I I totally agree with with my however cynical you are about the Champions League it it has to be you know in club football anyway the most successful product that's ever been developed um and the fact that it's expanding further and is worth even more money now than than it was before tells you that it doesn't look like going backwards yeah okay well the Champions Outro League draw is imminent gentlemen thank you so much for your time and do not forget you can get in touch with us by emailing tcod theathletic.com ad and Evel will be with you tomorrow bringing you the preview ahead of Sunday's huge game at Old Trafford between Manchester United and Liverpool thank you so much for listening I'll be back with you very soon if you want to watch more episodes of the show please subscribe to the channel we'll be joined by the likes of David orstein Matt Slater Adam Crafton kyanka and plenty more through the season if you'd like to listen to the episodes in fall in audio form search the athletic FC wherever you get your podcast from