Singh says video announcing the death of the NDP-Liberal pact was shot weeks ago | Power & Politics

we're starting with the top story in Ottawa the ndp's deal with the Liberals is over despite jug meet Singh ripping up the agreement the Prime Minister says the Liberals are still focused on governing hopefully the NDP will continue to try and deliver for Canadians right now they're focused on politics we're focused on Canadians sing faced questions for the first time today about his decision to back out of the deal so after two and a half years why did jug me Singh end this deal now and is he prepared to launch the country into to a federal election CH me Singh is the leader of the federal new Democratic party and he joins me now Mr Singh welcome back to Power and politics thanks so much you keep saying that prime minister Justin Trudeau caves to corporate greed and won't do what needs to be done can you give me a specific example where you asked the Liberals to take action on corporate greed and they didn't do it for food prices for over two years food prices exceeded General inflation and we said we need to take action the Liberals action was to tell people and they said this with a straight face to look at grocery Flyers champagne came out with that as a solution that people need to be better at shopping they then said they were going to go and ask the C nicely to stabilize prices none of that worked most recently workers wanted to work strike for better work conditions safer work conditions which is actually not just for those workers but for all Canadians when it comes to railway safety and uh they were locked out so they didn't even get to go on strike and then instead of allowing for a negotiation to happen at the table the Liberals Justin Trudeau caved to corporate interest and force binding arbitration which undermine the workers's right to negotiate fairly and also rewarded bad behavior of corporations that in a lot of ways had some shady collusion in the timing of both the CN and cpkc uh labor disputes happening around the same time both undermining workers both hurting workers so many examples but those are the two I can give you well well let's just talk about food prices because I know this has been something you've been talking about you've been going after gayen Wesson you've been going after grocery CEOs like what's like so yes food prices higher than Baseline inflation because you had things like the war in Ukraine you had Aven flu driving up the price of chicken you have climate change either causing flooding or drought in key agricultural sectors I mean what's the policy response to that from a government to to drive down the prices that you would have done you also had record profits that these companies weren't just making good profits at the same time of seeing Canadians have to pay more than ever at the grocery stores and leaving with less than ever these same grocery stores posted the most profits they've ever seen what's the policy response for a government to drive down the pric countes so we're talking at the same time there sorry well but but but I try to understand like other other countries also have food price challenges so what is the policy response you asked them to do that they didn't do this is what I'm struggling to understand uh we said we needed to see some either Force these companies to lower prices or impose uh a excess profit tax we then put forward a bill or a motion a plan to say put in place price caps something that France has done effectively and lowered the price of over 5,000 essential food items other countries are taking this more seriously there's been attempts to go after the excess profits that corporations are making in a way to curb some of the impacts on consumers on people they're feeling so squeezed so hurt and Justin TR and the Liberals have ignored that and so it's become very clear they're not interested in taking the steps necessary to tackle these serious problems corporate landlords are ripping off Canadians there's so much more that could be done to protect consumers protect Canadians protect renters and the Liberals refuse to do so okay so what can they do on rent because rent is is provincial jurisdiction that's what runs uh rental uh regulations landlord tenants agencies these are Provincial Government powers and responsibilities what is it you asked them to do on rent that they didn't do well significant number of corporate landlords take per Federal money they take Federal money in the form of preferential tax treatment they take it in the form of direct subsidies they take it in the form um of being having their loans backed by teamhc we said that you should not a scent of federal support should go to corporate landlords that Ren evict their their tenants that mistreat their tenants that jack up rents above guide above guideline increases and I've met with many tenants in Toronto in communities across the country where they are in a building that receives some of those forms of federal support and are being exploited and being ripped off that's another tool there are many excuses if the federal government wants to find an excuse not to solve a problem but I think leadership is not finding an excuse It's finding a solution and when it comes to these Federal uh supports being given to corporate landlords that is a powerful tool to say no you're not going to give you a cent of federal support unless you follow these guidelines have some strings attached to the fact that cmhc backs uh with insurance on loans that give these large corporate landlords the ability to buy more properties uh these are tools that can be used but they're not being used well look look there's disagreement on what exactly is driving the the grocery store chain profits and whether the government can really put a cap on on food prices and have a realistic effect done in other countries sure well but they have different laws and they have different trade agreements I mean can you legally impose price caps on Goods that come in from Mexico and the United States without triggering some sort of a trade dispute we know that corporate grocery stores have their own in-house brands on Essentials there's lots of ways to find if their goal is to find a solution there's Solutions out there if the goal is to say yes we're going to take on corporate greed they suggested to do something they said they were going to have a meeting with the CEOs well why not threaten them with the uh excess profit tax there's lots of tools it's really about the will and this is the problem with the Liberals and Justin Trudeau there are very quick to find excuses there are a lot of solutions if you want to get things done and you were the prime minister of Canada there are so many tools at your disposable to get things done okay you want to find excuses yes there's lots of excuses say I can't do this I can't do that but if you want Solutions you can find them but okay just just as a final point on the this if you wanted them to take action on food prices you know even though there's some disagreement on that if you wanted them to do something on rent even though that falls into provincial jurisdiction why not make those conditions of the supply and confidence agreement try to renegotiate it put it in there and use the tool that you had to make that part of the agenda rather than walking out and and and losing that leverage play well we've got a lot of things done and I think it's important to point out we got a significant number of things done that were part of our agreement the Dental Care Program is out the door it's being delivered seniors are getting it kids are getting it it's a brand new program that we force the government to deliver pharmacare legislation is passed anti-cab legislation has passed some of the key pieces that we wanted to have done the sustainable jobs Act is passed we passed these pieces of legislation some of them we needed to see the roll out into this summer and we saw that with the dental care piece and then it became very clear with a overwhelming amount of evidence that the Liberals are too weak too beholden to corporate interest to do what's necessary to make people's lives better they show again and again more evidence of that and they're also too weak and frankly similarly beholden to corporate interest to take on pier PV and the threat of conservative cuts the next election is going to be a change election okay people are done with Justin Trudeau so people are going to have to choose between Pierre POV and his vision of cutting and gutting the things that Canadians need or new Democrats who offer hope and investing in the solutions that but the deficiencies you're talking about now are not in the supplying confidence agreement they lived up to their side of the agreement and now you're walking away without living up to your side of it right of passing four budgets and maintaining stability in Parliament until June of 2025 I mean they honored what they signed are you not breaking your word to them by walking away it became clear that we had completed a significant part of our agreement and that what we needed to see from Justin Shau and the liberal party was in the liberal government was a lot more and they had were unwilling to do what was necessary given the unprecedented inflation that people are going through the cost of living increase people are going through the lack of urgency the lack of any sort of real valtion to want to make things better for people made it clear to me that we could no longer continue okay the language you used in the video in your statement and and here in this interview where you've referred to the Liberals as too weak too selfish and too beholden to corporate interests I mean that is a critique of the fundamental character of this government I mean aren't they essentially the same people though and the same government that you signed the agreement with in March of 2022 I don't see dramatic change in and who they are and how they function I mean explain this to me we saw a dramatic change in people's circumstances when we first embarked on this agreement over two years ago and we saw subsequently a massive increase in cost of living and a complete abject failure of Justin Trudeau and the Liberals to respond to that they did not respond to food prices while acknowledging that it was a problem you have to recall that they did come out and do press conference saying okay yes it's a problem you got to look at your food uh Flyers you got to look at grocery flyers and look at the deal deals like that's an insulting thing to say to a family at saying we're we're spending more than ever before on groceries and are leaving with less than ever before and they hear from Justin Trudeau's government one of their ministers saying you got to do a better job of shopping around your flyers then they get this fake promise of we'll force them to stabilize prices by asking them nicely I mean this is all an acceptance of the problem but a failure to do anything meaningful to address it that became very clear and we saw more and more examples of that well inflation people struggles that people are going through made it clear that this government and Justin Trudeau and the Liberals are not up to the challenges okay well inflation is coming down now in some cases food prices are deflating they're actually decreasing so I mean there has been some change in those circumstances as you're doing this but if the I say though the net increase though of like over what to 25 30% increase of prices even if inflation stabilizes that doesn't address the fact that prices have gone up by that much they've not come down by 30% no understood but there are a lot of global inputs into the prices of of a basket of food that that we talked about earlier but but I wonder Mr sing if you say they are too weak too selfish too behold in the corporate interest I know you've L the supply and confidence agreement how can you vote confidence in future confident votes in a government with these fundamental deficiencies if I had an employee with those qualities and I had the chance to fire them I do it what are you going to do we're going to take each vote as it comes I'm not going to guess at what the vote is and and guess at my vote at it uh we'll take each vote as it comes and make our decision but what is clear is what we are up against now is is an election that will happen because I've torn up this agreement in a date that's now more uncertain but that election is going to be about who can replace this government and it's a choice between Pier PV who wants to cut the things that Canadians need been very open about wanting to cut people's pensions one of the first things he announced in 2022 so he wants to cut people's pensions we're new Democrats who want to strengthen someone's pension and ensure that we make life better for people okay I I do want to talk about the election in just a second but I want a little bit more ins it if I can into the timeline of how you made this decision because this video announcing it was released yesterday and you know you've gotten some criticism for doing this days after Mr PV suggested you should ter the agreement but the video itself was recorded weeks ago I'm told at least a week and a half maybe close to a month ago so it was done well in advance of anything Mr PV said when precisely did you make the decision to pull the plug on the supply and confidence agreement well we've been having ongoing discussions about this for for a while now in in caucus amongst my team and something that's not something that it was a last minute decision that we just woke up and decided it's something we've been thinking about uh we were looking at things that we wanted to get done we wanted to make sure that Dental Care a big chunk of it was completed and and we wanted to make sure that things had been passed and out the door and so we've been reflecting on this for a while and as you mentioned yes the video was shot close to a month ago so well before pv's recent letter and let me be really clear I will never listen to the advice of Pier Pao someone who wants to destroy our health care System someone who wants to get rid of and Destroy pensions someone that wants to let his corporate buddies uh have a a feast at at the Tross when it comes to ripping off Canadians like I'm never going to listen to a guy like that someone who wants to let his buddies rip off Canadians at grocery stores and and when it comes to corporate landlords that's not someone I'm ever going to take advice from okay so you made the decision what in July in June like when when was the actual decision Point made and then let's go shoot a video to be ready to announce it to the world uh I can tell you that we made this decision over over lots of reflection and the decision was announced yesterday we we've torn up the agreement and now uh We've made it very clear that we are going to go vote to vote and this sets up a question about the election we know that means the election more probable than before before it was less probable now it's more likely and we're ready for that and the choices for Canadians are in front of them conservatives under P proba have who want to cut the things that you need new Democrats want to build up our country that's going to be the choice of the next election but if the decision had been made uh quite some time ago to the point that you were able to shoot a video and do video production wasn't this worth a phone call to the Prime Minister that you've worked with for the last two and a half years on this to deliver things like Dental Care like why didn't you pick up the phone and call Justin Trudeau and say hey we have to talk about this because I'm going to fundamentally change the the political stability and the political landscape of the country I mean isn't it worth a phone call when you've been working together for two years uh we don't want to leave a door open to any new deal there's no new deal here this is the deal is done I've ripped it up and we're moving forward and so I don't want to open up the door to a potential negotiation or any future deal the deal is done we're going to go vote to vote and we're going to continue to fight for Canadians and we're going to bring that choice to Canadians they've got a choice coming up and it's going to be about who replaces this government and that choice is between at the federal level you got conservatives want to cut with Pier PV or you got new Democrats you got me who's going to fight for working people that's a choice but you've now as you've acknowledged created the conditions for an early election right and and this favors the conservatives would be the analysis that I I would have in that they have the big lead they have the big war chess and this is the very party that you are saying today represents a threat to the well-being of Canadians and you have just created the circumstances where they can get their path to power much sooner much quicker and before you're in a position to stop them it's going to be a fight I'm not suggesting this is easy in any ways this is a big fight for the future of our country and and we have a really serious job in front of us can Ians need to know what they already know about conservatives and they need to know that the pier PO is serious about it he and his his team talk regularly about dismantling the Canada Healthcare System they want to do that they do not want to see a public healthare system anymore they want to see people paying money out of pocket privately to get care I think that is fundamentally wrong generations of Canadians have fought to have a health care System where it should not matter how much money you earn to determine the quality of care you get or how quickly you get that care that is something that pi po was opposed to that is a fundamental difference of opinion for the future of our country we're going to take that to Canadians he wants to cut pensions they did it when Harper was in power Pier POV announced it right when he became leader he said that EI and pensions or payroll taxes he would cut them that means he wants to cut people's pensions he's been very open about it that's a CH choice I want to put to Canadians do you want to let Pier POV cut your pensions or do you want new Democrats to strengthen your pension but the criticism the criticism response from the Liberals yesterday was that you're doing this for your own political benefit in that it's hard to differentiate yourself I guess from a liberal government that you've been working with sort of you've been the robin to Justin Trudeau's Batman and that you're doing this to differentiate and pivot and create a chance to do contrast and and and and offer change I mean that this is purely a political decision for your self-interest because they were living up to the letter of the deal and doing everything that they said they would do how do you respond to what they said it became clear that people needed a lot more we went through unprecedented cost of living increases and those are really serious Pro challenges and it it became also clear again and again that when push came to shove Justin sh and the Liberals chose the side with the folks that are ripping off Canadians they chose a side with the big corporate grocery stores they chose to side with the big corporate landlords they did not use the tools they had at their disposable to fight against these serious challenges that people are going through that made it clear to us we couldn't continue Mr PV has criticized you he's called you sellout sing he's called you st Dunt Man Singh uh for doing uh what he suggested you should do in terms of tearing up the deal but uh you're now saying you're going to go vote by vote uh you're not saying you're going to bring down the government I mean do you still have any confidence in this government whatsoever after working with them for two and a half years do you have any confidence we're going to make a decision based on what's in front of us I I wouldn't say to you I'm going to decide on a vote that hasn't actually been presented I'm going to look at it and assess is it something in the as Canadians and make a decision that way uh but on pier PV let's let's be really clear this is a guy with a silly notion of having alliteration as his strategy with with buzzword slogans thinking that that is how you run a country I mean it's silly and and frankly it's Petty and what what he knows is that he is lying to Canadians he knows that we fought and forced Justin Trudeau to do things that he would never have done bring in Dental Care to change the lives of millions of Canadians that's what we did he knows that uh so lying knowingly but he's doing it because he wants to distract from Canadians that what he wants to do is destroy dental care so for seniors out there for parents and grandparents that are getting it he doesn't think they deserve to have dental care he doesn't think kids deserve to have dental care despite the fact that taxpayers have been paying for his Dental Care since most of his adult life he doesn't think that people deserve it he also wants to dismantle our entire Healthcare System that's what he's distracting from when he does these lies and these Petty things but the conservatives are a threat to cut everything that can Canadians hold deer in your view and the Liberals are a threat to keep selling out to corporate interests in your view the Liberals have been hammered by corporate Canada for their capital gains tax increase windfall taxes on Insurance and financial institutions oil and gas emissions cap Digital Services tax which is uh putting us into a collision course as a country with the United States potentially they brought in a minimum tax on the wealthy uh to avoid them to make it harder for them to use deductions uh to get around paying tax I mean that is not a pro corporate agenda a pro wealth agenda as you're defining them when it comes down to it though when push comes to shove on the two most fundamental things that Canadians care about cost their groceries cost of their rent on those two fundamental things they've caved heavily to corporate interest they threatened to bring in a excess profit tax they didn't do it they didn't actually get any real results on lowering prices they knew that this is a problem they accepted it and we pushed for changes and they backed away and they backed down because they caved to the corporate interest on grocery prices and that's something that I've fact people on a regular basis that's your weekly Bill people are worried about something that's affecting them regularly and Justin show and the Liberals fail to respond to that okay just on top of that when it comes to the rent that's something you have to pay monthly that's a serious thing and we've got corporate landlords in Canada receiving either cmhc backed Insurance on their loans or getting preferential tax treatment or getting straight up federal money and not uh and mistreating their tenants right the government could have done something about they didn't I mean look the rent challenges are bigger than just corporate landlords though they are a part part of it and it is provincial jurisdiction so there are limits in in in what you want them to do there but what I've described isn't isn't provincial jurisdiction I'm just saying no but it may it may not be enough to solve the problem that rip off people right as a final question you you're framing the election now as a choice between you and Mr pev and that we don't know when the next election is going to be but we know when the byelection in elmood Transcona is going to be that's on September 16th that is an IND DPC the Blakes have held that Daniel Blakey left to go back and work for wob Cano and put this seat into play conservatives have a chance to win this if you lose that seat to the conservatives are you really the credible alternative to Pier POV right now people in that byelection have a choice and and that's an important choice I'm going to continue to put that choice to the people I'm transon I'm actually headed there uh in a day I'll be there tomorrow and folks are going to have a choice in that byelection do they want to support the conservative cuts of Pier PV they rejected that in Manitoba but what if they vote for it what if they vote for it what if they say yes what if they vote for the conservative agenda and not for your agenda after you have defined the choice Canadians are facing in these Stark terms what does that tell you about this move I'm not going to answer hypothetical we don't know the outcome of that election until it happens but I can tell you what I'm going to do right now I'm going to go to Manitoba I'm going to Winnipeg like I said tomorrow I'll be there and I'll be sharing with folks our vision our vision of a hopeful Canada one where we lift each other up where we take care of one another and I'm going to contrast that with Pierre's Vision Pierre po has Vision which is to tear down Canada tear down our Healthcare tear tear down and cut our pensions tear down the things that canadi Ians believe in that's the choice in this next election and and it's the choice in this byelection CH me Singh Federal NDP leader thank you for your time today sir thank you okay we're going to bring in the power panel now to talk about all of this Cameron Amad is a former head of communications to prime minister Justin Trudeau Andrew Thompson is a former Saskatchewan NDP cabinet minister James Moore is a former Federal conservative cabinet minister and shachi kurl is the president of the Angus Reed Institute uh it's good to see you all gang uh thank you for not ripping up your deal with us and being here on Thursday Andrew we saw the 90c video yesterday from jug me Singh today we got a repetitive but more fullsome explanation did he make a better case for his decision do you think I think he's starting to make the the argument it's going to take some time for for them to get their identity back as a you know a a true opposition party which is obviously what they're wanting to do I think they've been hearing clearly on the the doorsteps in the byelection it's hard to campaign a government against a government that you're propping up and that they need to have that uh if they're going to have the you know support that they need to to grow they've got to identify themselves as something other than the Liberals and I think that's the message that sing was is working to get out now and that's why I don't believe that the government's going to be falling anytime uh uh too soon I expect that they'll be around probably well into the spring because the NDP is going to need time to get that definition out there James do they really gain the differentiation they seem to be seeking if they still vote with the government on confidence motions to continue to implement the still lingering elements of this plan confidence agreement no um everything Andrew said is correct about where the NDP wants to be but the incoherence um and the intellectual twisting that jug meet Singh has to do in order to try to appear to be independent of liberals and what he said today is just so mindless and it makes one's head hurt you know he's gonna he's going to clearly go out and brag about all all the achievements of this agreement the achievement the the supply and confidence agreement was great we got all these things done it's really wonderful um but can't trust the Liberals even though the Liberals delivered six out of the seven votes they have 154 seats to the ndp's 24 they delivered six out of the seven votes for all the things that the NDP are very proud of but you just can't trust those liberals okay so you can't trust the liberals so you're going to vote against the Liberals well we'll take it on a case-by Case basis but I thought you say you don't trust the Liberals well you can't trust the Liberals because they're all for corporate greed and we just can't trust them so you're going to vote to bring them down well we'll take it on a case-by casee basis I mean what is it was the confidence and Supply agreement a success for which you have to share some credit with the liberals or was it a miserable failure in which case you can't trust the Liberals and therefore you're going to bring them down in which case he's going to take it on a case-by casee basis the incoherence of jug me sing and his incapacity to be clear about what has been accomplished over the last two years and to and to weave together a coherent message is staggering it's staggering that this guy is a leader of a political party okay uh so so Cameron will put James down as undecided uh I I'm just wondering where you think this leaves the liberals right now because they have lost their governing partner uh as they head into caucus and as Parliament is set to resume with a couple of byelections all at the same time yeah it it leaves the Liberals I think on a practical level in a tough spot because going into the Parliamentary session it means that this minority government is going to be back to a more chaotic uh system to get their bills passed and to to actually govern you know you had some certainty over the past two years despite everything the NDP was saying being extremely critical of the government constantly despite being in a deal with them and propping them up it provided that certainty on a practical level it meant that you could actually try and get things done in Parliament you had a clear path of what type of priorities you're going to try and Implement so it does create some difficulty for them it also creates some opportunity I think because now the messages are going to have to sharpen I agree with James entirely that there's no coherence in how the NDP tried to explain this like it really doesn't make sense if you're just watching and trying to understand and why now you're not calling an election but you're saying that you've this has been great but also the Liberals are terrible and you've suddenly realize that they're corporate uh sellouts so that all doesn't make sense but regardless they're going every party now is going to have to sharpen their message heading into whenever the next election comes so they have to the Liberals absolutely have to cement themselves as the progressive alternative to the conservatives and say look we figured out a way to work with the NDP we figured out how to make this minority Parliament work for the middle class for working people here are all the amazing things we've got done the NDP doesn't they don't have any plan they don't really have any Pathway to delivering for Canadians because they had one and they've backed out of it now so shachi um you know I think it's easy to see why the NDP want to separate themselves from you know the the the liberal brand at this point so they can offer some contrast and a choice in the next election how do you think voters are going to react to this and like if you listen to the criticism of incoherence of reasoning a message how does that what's the first impression and how does that move things for the NDP well beyond the first impression the first thing that some one of us needs to do on this panel is order Mr Sing a shredder like why is he doing so much ripping just you know Shred the agreement do not rip it up that's too much work it's only four pages by the way so it's just you know they have really fancy confetti cut ones now like come on anyway um look in terms of the the potential bounce uh for the NDP let's put things into some context in the last three years the the conservative trend line has only gone one way that's up by 14 points the liberal trend line has only gone one way and that's down by 14 points you've seen almost a one for one migration of liberal voters over to the conservative Camp you would think that Progressive voters who don't want to vote liberal again would have found a home or thought about uh voting NDP but let me tell you something about the trend line for the NDP in the last 3 years it has remained flat in the meantime you've got at the NDP not only um in a situation where they've they' failed to pick up any traction or momentum they are getting hammered by the conservatives on uh the play for workingclass voters for union members particularly private sector union members and so this this divorce if you will this file for separation uh had as much to do with trying to put some distance but the extent to which you know we we heard that that 92nd Montage of of his reasons for leaving uh if he can't clearly articulate them on day two of why he's made that decision uh you know Canadians they're dealing with a lot of noise I I question how many actually know that much about the confidence and Supply agreement they know the Liberals are in charge obviously and they know for many of them they they'd like to do something about that but the details of it the substance of it the policy of it and the way it's going to work I know political Watchers are going to be so excited in the coming months with every bloody confidence vote but guess what uh for the most part Canadians are trying to live their lives deal with cost of living deal with housing affordability and and that's the punch through that is what uh what the NDP needs to make the case around yeah I I don't know how excited anybody is about the uh Trump that drama of confidence votes that we're going to see potentially uh we we'll see I mean maybe the government Falls maybe it doesn't but I think there is going to be some uh high drama uh happening throughout the fall but look one of the things the NDP were saying today is that they're in really good Financial shape uh and that's one of the reasons why they can do this and get ready for an election saying they're ready to fight uh the next election the Liberals have done a fundraising blast off of this I want to show you the latest filings for elections candidate just to give you a sense of what the numbers look like look at where the conservatives are right uh $2 20.5 million raised uh so far this year 6.8 million for the Liberals way back just 2.6 million for the NDP and 665,000 for the blockc W who don't really need to run a national campaign so when you look at the Gap there uh Andrew and you listen to what jug singer said in the video like criticizing the Liberals for being weak and selfish and all of these things but then trying to define the next election as a choice between prime minister Singh and prime minister pev when you look at the polls when you look at the math you look at the rhetoric you look at the money how does that work well look it's going to be a three-way fight and I don't understand why the NDP has decided to try to make this binary fight again it it never works for them when they do it they open themselves up to the Strategic voting argument of the Liberals but one of the things that is different about this election for the Liberals and it's to the the point was just made is about 15% of the electorate is parked with the conservatives why because they do not like Justin Trudeau they were liberal voters or they were NDP voters who do not like Justin Trudeau that makes them accessible to an opposition or to A Renewed liberal party that is not tied up with Justin Trudeau and that's what the NDP is trying to do is they trying to move three or four or 5% of that vote over into their column because they do not want a conservative government they do not want to see all of the work that they've done over the last three years become undone and so this is really what's driving it is figuring out how to take that block of Voters that is mobile right now parked with the conservatives and bring that down there's only two ways to do that the NDP needs to act like an official opposition and the Liberals if they want to reclaim some of that need to change their leader that's the calculus right now and there's no way to really kind of move around it that's I think the the play and what sing's got to do is find a better way to explain uh how he's in fact stepping up to protect a progressive Legacy uh in that context but you know James um the the liberal hope has always been that time would be on their side they had a Runway till October of 25 interest rate Cuts improving economic conditions more Spotlight and scrutiny on PR PV might change things for them a little bit that all got more fraught today it seems like what the NDP has done here is a gift to the conser because it probably accelerates the election timeline for them uh conceivably another thing that I think hasn't been mentioned in the coverage that I've seen about yesterday's events is that sometimes parliaments actually get into a crisis and fall by accident not everything is by Design and confidence votes can happen on a on a spur of the- moment Thing by an amendment that wasn't assumed or a poison pill put in by a government or or you get my point and so you know it does make things a little bit more precarious going forward for sure which kind of again brings back to the NDP and their strategy in this you know you would think that they would say Supply confidence agreement 1.0 worked but we're going to raise the game because things are so important so what we're going to do is we're going to have how about any any federally man federally regulated workplace we want to have a guaranteed mandatory minimum wage of at least $25 or guaranteed minim mandatory minimum income for all Canadians but something that sets the bar on the Progressive side really really high in such a way that the Liberals would have to reject instead what they've done is they've taken themselves out of that and now the liberal can come forward conceivably in a in a in a budget next year and really tilt hard to the progressive left in a way that'll leave the NDP either voting confidence in the Liberals therefore subsuming this whole argument That Jag me sing's put forward in the last 24 hours or giving the Liberals the votes they need to get it done and claim victory independent of the ndp's pressure so here we are I think this is so it's it's all very strange what they've done here a second thing I would mention very quickly is that because things will be more conceivably precarious not necessarily because of design but because accidents happen in Parliament they really do is that I think this will hasten the conversation by a lot of people not just Jeremy broadhurst on the on the party side but a lot of cabinet ministers who thought that they had until the spring of next year the summer of next year to decide whether or not to run again they're going to be start making having those conversations this weekend they're going to have those conversations around Thanksgiving and I think you could start seeing a lot of backbenchers and cabinet ministers make the decision to pull the plug now as opposed to waiting through Christmas in the spring and that'll put more pressure on Justin Trudeau to make his own decision well there have been some departures in the chief of staff ranks uh in the government and Cameron I do want to ask you about Jeremy brur who is was handpicked to run the next election campaign uh he's was a senior adviser for the Prime Minister ran the I think he was the national campaign director in 2015 which was the big majority win here he is leaving a year out I I know that there is time to find someone but there's been no replacement named governing partner gone campaign manager stepping down um where does this what do they do what a question um this is a tough blow for the party and and the team I think because and I'll just say as someone who's worked closely with Jeremy for a long time in different capacities both at the party and in government he's a great guy he's a an extremely smart and Brilliant um political mind and a just a wonderful person to work with and he's devoted a lot of his life to to politics and to serving the country so I think he'll you'll only hear Praise from people like me who've worked with him and people in the party and uh deservedly so uh in terms of what they do next I mean they do have to they have to act fast they have to pick someone who has his degree of skill and experience which is going to be hard to find to take up that to take up that role um and I think it's a really tough time especially I mean you know these are never easy announcements to make right there's there's never a great way to announce something like this uh especially when there's so much else going on and the polling is what it is um but we have to look forward the party has to look forward and as you mentioned Caucus meeting coming up byelections coming up very soon uh this is a fraught moment for the party and the government and a tough time for them to to to muddle through especially with Parliament returning and as we've all talked about a much more chaotic unpredictable difficult scenario where as James rightly mentioned uh mistakes can be made and uh unpredictability truly will govern this parliamentary session but you know shachi James talked about the Prime Minister can make his own decisions right now the decision appears to be made that he's going to run again and Andrew talked about how you can change the dynamic of the election by changing the leader with the uncertain unstable nature of parliament facing everybody in the fall how do you even contemplate pushing for a leadership move of some sort this seems to make it even less likely and I thought he was never going to go but that that that Justin Trudeau would think about leaving under these circumstances well it it would be the ultimate frankly if he were to go at this stage middle finger to what is left of his base his caucus his cabinet and the people who have stayed true under his tent he can't go now uh it makes no sense to go now they have much bigger problems right in front of them two inches from their nose uh than trying to figure out who another leader is look sometimes and I I know I haven't been part of your discussions through the summer but I'm back I'm back and and so I'll I'll tread a little bit of ground that you've probably already talked but yeah going to you know we're going to talk about some of these the the idea that that that you know like Biden if he just left this would bring new energy back into the campaign this is much more like what we saw in the UK where just uh the writing on the wall was there for the better part of two years and you know barring really something very dramatic happening not just within the liberal camp but within the opposition camps because this this is going to be a very much a change ballot question election there is no point at this stage to Mr Trudeau leaving he has an opportunity now to think about Legacy he has an opportunity now to think about preserving dignity and and about finishing out the policy things that he wants to do uh for as long as the time that he's got to do it the party branded itself around this leader Justin Trudeau is the Liberal Party the liberal party is Justin TR Trudeau it was going to be challenging to change that six months ago a year ago it's certainly going to be challenging if not impossible to do that now Andrew how do you see it I mean how do you introduce even more volatility into this mix well I mean a couple things first of all if they do decide to change leaders one of the things that that buys them is some time there's no way the NDP is going to tank a a party that's in the middle of a leadership fight I think they'll wait for that to play out plus there's lots of time in the parliament you know before a budget uh to for them to be able to change it what we're missing here is going back to the numbers and when we look at conservative voters today at 40 % of the electorate that's with the Tories 40% of that so 16% of the electorate is there because they do not like Justin Trudeau they are voting not because they like Pierre PV not because they like the conservative agenda because they do not like Justin Trudeau that's a huge amount of the electorate that is available either to the Liberals under some a different leader or available to the NDP as a an alternative to Trudeau and the Liberals that's the the issue and so we can talk about you know whether it's whether the NDP have the right argument or not that's ultimately what it comes down to is who's getting that block of votes and right now it's Pier PV and Pier POV has been smart about how to position and the Liberals and the NDP have played into it they've got to spend the next 6 months changing that uh that equation changing that Dynamic and changing that ballot question James you carve off the Electoral pie the same way as Andrew there with with with the math he did there um not necessarily because issues will shift and and and circumstances will shift you know whether it's Bank of Canada rate and also politics in the United States will have a consequence on this side of the Border as well and Canadians will assess who the president of the United States is and who they'd like to have JX opposed to that jug me saying you know he's now in an impossible position with the NDP to capture the votes that Andrew describes because he says confidence Supply agreement was great we got all these things done but it was so great I'm tearing it up and they say well the Liberals can't be trusted but they can't be trusted so much that I'm going to trust them on a caseby Case basis well what it like it's so so if you're if you want change and you want a different direction for the country and that's the biggest voting cohort is people who are unsatisfied with the status quo of Canada not un unsatisfied with the status quo of liberals or status quo of Justin Trudeau they're unsatisfied with where the country is and how they see themselves in the country and if that's the case then anybody who's been part of this current regime is going to be suffering at the polls in the next campaign and all of that is to the advantage of Pier PV and he knows I think the messaging that's necessary to capture those voters Andrew quick rebuttal there look it doesn't work that way because you may have 60 or % that aren't happy with the direction but some of that is in fact currently parked with the NDP and will continue to be parked with the NDP those people that want a progressive future those people that want more investment not cuts that don't want the austerity that want to continue to see an investment in pharmacare and dental care and all those other programs that the Tories are saying that they won't invest in that's where the shis becomes and that's what POV you know where the POV sing campaign the difference of opinions come in is there a room for the Liberals up the middle of course there always is they managed to find that you know uh and work at almost every election okay James and then sh you wanted to say something back James well I just going to say voters set priorities they don't say I want a progressive government from tip to toe they can prioritize their issues they can say my number one issue is cost of living and I think the remedy for that is getting rid of the carbon tax or lowering lowering government spending or my number one priority is schools and and needles and and excessive um tolerance about um social dysfunction and that's my it's not Progressive or conservative one or the other holess bis you can prioritize and if you look at the priority of issues of concerns for the public and the and the corresponding remedy the conservatives have lined themselves up very nicely in terms of the voters appetites okay sh hop on in here yeah um you know Andrew's math works as long as we assume that voters all of these voters are totally malleable and may shift and may continue to move back and forth of course it's their prerogative to do so right up until ballot day but here's the thing conservative voters are the most likely of any of these party bases to say I am absolutely certain about my vote I am certain I will not change my mind and that is the bankable support that the conservatives have at the moment in terms of the polling but so shachi just on that uh it seems to me the play by the other parties is not so much about necessarily winning government next time round but stopping a majority is there enough malleability in the the voting uh intentions for that I mean sure and and it becomes the new cre occur it becomes the new battlecry or or the thing that motivates not only their base but maybe moves a few voters hey we get it we know you're mad it looks like they're going to form government uh but let's hold them to a minority let's not hand them not only the keys to the car but the house and the bank vault at the same time again the conservatives in the in Britain in the UK tried that in the dying throws of their campaign it did not work let's see if the extent to which but you that is a very psychologically tough decision and and message to start delivering it means that you're acknowledging it's done I don't think the Liberals are there yet well they were talking about a super majority stop a super majority and and trying to make Kier starmer scary which I think is a very difficult proposition in in in UK politics but Cameron you go back to the set of issues that you know James and others have spelled out there and you listen to jug me Singh talk about things like rent for example how does a government like the Liberals at the situation they find themselves in Now respond to some of those policy challenges when many of them aren't in their jurisdiction and they were counting on getting a fourth budget through and they don't know if that's going to happen necessarily right now so is there a way for you to respond to some of these to at least put yourself back in the game on the front there yeah I I mean there's two things firstly I think what the Liberals have not managed to do yet which is critical every time you have you face a new leader is you have to Define your opposition you have to Define what's at stake and they haven't managed to do that um and I mean yes there still is time to do that and I think if they manage to do that effectively that's probably what can change their fortunes the most but they spent nothing on ad Cameron this is something liberals should talk to describe this as basic malpractice and I know we showed the fundraising numbers and I know there's a massive numerical Advantage here for the conservatives but almost nothing has been spent sort of like targeting PF yeah that's a good question I mean there are a lot of strategic considerations in terms of when you want to place ads uh whether it's more strategic to do so earlier on or closer to an election um but I think that's definitely a good question to ask I think regardless you can you know the government has a large Pulpit ads or no ads I mean they're covered every single day the Prime Minister does events every single day he's the the biggest team of of every of any party um so that has to be a focus and they have to put they have to try some new things but the time is running out for that and the second thing to to question about the issues is Maybe if there is any opportunity here as we enter this new parliamentary session for the Liberals it's to try and rise above all of the politics there's so much focus on cover and coverage right now on personalities leadership questions internal party stuff and that will only increase as Parliament comes in and there are questions about confidence votes the vast majority of Canadians They Don't Really tune into to those things and they certainly those those types of topics and that type of coverage certainly doesn't address their day-to-day like kitchen table concerns so who which party is going to manage which party other than the conservatives who managed to do it well so far is going to manage to talk about those things that matter to people in their lives and be able to rise above uh all of these other types of topics that don't really matter to the average person you know I do agree with Cameron on this question of tone that I do think that that is a potential differentiator coming up and it is something that plays the Liberals favor the rage farming that we've seen from the conservatives this uh new approach from the DP a lot of people just right now want to hear that they're going to have a competent quiet government that does the things they want getting those three pieces to line up is really hard because it doesn't all seem to live in one party but that I think is an opportunity is to to deal with that tone bring back that sense of optimism show a degree of conf uh competence uh that could play the Liberals Advantage but I'm not sure that any of that breaks through as long as they've got the current leader which is what the litmus test of politics is about James do you think it is about breaking that elevated tone I don't know like I remember Michelle Obama famously said when they go low we go high and then they got creamed and then at the Democratic Convention this year Michelle Obama put on her brass knuckles you know it was a very different approach to things and it feels like that's just where politics is right now well there's a political you know there there's a default political mindset in Canada for peace order and good government but that gets rotated out of the mindset of the public when the public is angry and the Public's angry and if the government comes along and if if they're competent and calm headed and and even keeled in their approach you know it's a responsibility in politics to mirror the emotions of the electorate not to get ahead of them not to fall behind them but to make sure that the public understands that you hear them that you empathize with them you sympathize with them and that you've got remedies to their concerns and their aggravations and if the government's kind of going along saying everything is great well they've been doing their app for the past two years and they've been steered straight into a ditch as a consequence The public's angry frustrated they don't know that their kids can ever buy a home they don't know that they can afford their own retirement they're worried about their next set of groceries and what it's going to mean for their bottom line they're angry about that and they're looking for some scapegoats and they're looking for some solutions and if the government just kind of is going along is sort of a happy warrior that doesn't reflect the anger of the public they want the government to get into a business but they want let the government to reflect their energy as well okay um we are out of time I want to thank you all it's good to have you back it's good to see you all again it's good to be back in the chair talking to you smart folks who know more things than I do Cameron James Moore Andrew Thompson shoty kurl thank you so much G thanks David