Can the Penn State offense get BETTER results with LESS talent at wide receiver?

[Music] welcome in to a new edition of BWI live that's Thomas Frank Carr I'm Greg pickle we are rocking and rolling T Frank on a Wednesday it's a big day in the Penn State football World roster update day the NY Lions getting their new heights and weights out there for the start of or I guess the continuation of Summer workouts before preseason camp T Frank we got some news and notes to dive into on that front a lot of weight changes as well but first off let's uh just start off with a very simple question as we get ready for another show are you ready to get into this this is your favorite time of year I know it I I I love so this is the most complete roster because all of the freshman classes in right so this is we're locked and loaded for football season and yeah I I love this stuff I I was the dude who played Madden but didn't play any of the games just simulated and scouted and finded the guys that was 6 foot5 295 PBS and run a 44 because that stuff is fun numbers data information uh nerd out about it which I'm excited to do with you today yes no doubt about it well two news nuggets first of all I guess let's make it three the entire class of 24 is now here taer Denmark and Kenny Wiley Jr the two Philadelphia imep commits in this class are now officially both on campus as we reported from live for life last week at bluee illustrate. comom tier Denmark a very talented receiver was here for that event uh and now defensive back Kenny wosley is here too Denmark assigned number number four uh Kenny wosley assigned number 17 you can see the full class of 2024 number assignments at bluewhiteillustrated.com but T Frank before we get into the roster changes uh Denmark is somebody we have talked about what feels like endlessly over the last couple weeks about him finally getting to campus uh Penn State lists him officially at 510 177 which is pretty close to what he was of course coming out of high school so he's here he's ready to go and we've talked about it a bit but for the audience here today just real quick your thoughts on how realistic the hopes are from the fan base that he could factor into the receivers room this fall I would say it's about the same as Peter Gonzalez obviously a little bit more because I think there's more positional skills to go there with being a little bigger like being close to 180 at 510 is pretty good for a guy who I think is just it's fair to say he's an undersized wide receiver so uh we talked about this I think a week or two ago when he was at the big 33 game and he was playing outside you got to see that for the first time and see him kind of dominate uh those situations um I'm still always hesitant to say like yeah absolutely because I think I've been fairly consistent about the fact that I think he's a little the perception of him is a little greater than the potential impact he's going to make because of some of the things in his profile that are not necessarily uh ready to go you know from I I think he can get faster at Penn State I think he needs to do that I think he needs to still get bigger still but I'm more optimistic about his long-term projection as a standout receiver having seen some of these things that he did uh recently but you know it's an All-Star Game so uh I'm still waiting to see I I still think that there are there's there's a lot of really good stuff but there's a long way to go before I'm saying he's leap frogging somebody on the depth chart to then be a player for Penn State especially in a crowded mid-tier wide receiver room right which we're going to talk about later in the show in terms of getting the most out of that group yeah no doubt about it Peter Gonzalez as you mentioned another class of 2024 s who is now on campus head strength coach Chuck Losi recently very complimentary of the group that arrived somewhere between miday and early June and of course these guys just getting here now in mid June but they're all in the midst T Frank of their first summer workouts and we are going to learn a lot about what those guys might be capable of in preseason camp based on how they adjust to the summer workouts the player Le workouts the time they get with the coaches that now includes a football of course thanks to the new NCAA rules so they're not the only guys of course in the summer workout program there's a lot of uh of course returning veterans who are trying to make moves some who are trying trying to basically uh finesse their C from a weight and conditioning perspective ahead of the Season based on where they're at uh but like we mentioned at the top of the show the updated roster is here T Frank we're going to start on the offense um just initially I guess your thoughts on no one in particular we'll get to that in a second but as you looked at this list yesterday what stood out to you about maybe the plan Chuck Losi and the strength staff have for some of these guys spe specifically on offense when it comes to changing their bodies between the end of uh spring practice and the start of preseason camp so the offensive line is always interesting because these are big dudes so a large amount of weight sometimes doesn't even register I I mean uh Anthony donko is 336 and he kind of looks the same as he did before because he was 328 so uh C certain players went up in weight certain players went down in weight and I find that particular part interesting because I'm just speculating here this is like throw throw up a cautionary I'm speculating about this I don't have any inside information I don't have any hard information we're going to talk about Andy Co Nikki's offense and some of the historical stuff I've looked at uh this week at the end of the show but I'm talking here about some of these interior players specifically Nick Dawkins uh one one of the few players that went down in weight Nick Dawkins down to 298 some of this stuff is just natural fluctuations but having seen him at lift for life he is clearly trimmer than he was last year um and that goes into my open question about what does this team want from its center from that player who's got to snap the ball and in a lot of these situations get to the second level in these Zone Concepts that Annie kcki is bringing you want your guys to be like Anthony danco to be as big as possible and as fast as possible but not every athlete has that ability Greg so if you have to choose between having a guy who's a little bit bigger and maybe it slows him down a little bit but he holds up on the interior or a guy that can run and get to the second level and be fit at that Center position I'm curious to see that and because you see Alex bur Burke me does the did the same thing he's down to 299 is that a signal he's going to play that Center position as they try to find a home for him on the offensive line um and uh those are the two things I'm looking at from the offensive line in particular where you've got two guys that went down in weight but it matches things we've seen previously from Andy K n's offense where that Center needs to be athletic and mobile get to that Mike linebacker that will linebacker at the second level to open up these big run lanes for uh for the the running backs because that is a huge part of this is those explosive plays the second level athleticism and mobility and so that's just kind of my Curious speculation about this group uh to start what about you yeah I mean I think when you look at the offensive line changes you make a good point with Dawkins and then what it jumped out to me and let's just stay on the offensive line for a second I guess work our way through it from a seniority perspective we'll go back to the freshman and then come back to uh Anthony danco as one guy that jumped out to me as well but when you look at the changes T Frank of the Freshman Class these guys clearly uh in some cases are building their body up Egan Boer from 251 to 273 is one example and in the reverse Direction Garrett seon goes from 295 to 289 uh which you know again I think with as you wrote about uh talking with Chuck Losi over uh lift for before lift for life rather uh some of these guys come in and they need to break down a little bit to build back up and other ones just need to start eating and start lifting and their frame is in a good place uh but they need to just start adding to it so Egan Boer is a great example of that 251 uh to two uh 73 so up 22 he's the guy he he's the guy where you didn't really even notice like he looked like he didn't look skinny anymore but you wouldn't know that he's an offensive lineman walking around because now he looks like he fills out his own frame right yeah no doubt about it and you know when you talk about the Freshman Class not to jump positions but let's do that quick since we're on these guys I think you and I both kind of had a pause moment and looked at each other when Luke Reynolds walked by shortly before Chuck Losi started talking the tight end uh who was in an early enroll Le so was able to get a jump on things in the weight room and on the field up T Frank from 228 to 241 and he looks it I mean he is it's not bad weight either it's not he came in and spent 30 minutes a day at the crey right uh this was he came in and really put on upper body weight to hopefully in his mind I'm sure uh try and contribute this year and if he was going to do that we know what he is as a pass catcher but the weight was going to be needed and I'm sure it still is to some degree uh to block at this level so yep really impressive gains for him uh we'll get into the tight ends in just a sec but I'm just curious just from a freshman perspective uh what you saw from just in general the class overall Quinton Martin another guy who made a pretty sizable jump jump 194 to 202 uh and I think that you know clearly those guys both uh have a chance to maybe contribute this fall depending on how their preseason camp goes it's it's funny cuz the you you asked me that and by the time you had the end of the sentence done I had three more guys than I was expecting cuz yeah Luke Reynolds in any other situation we be talking about him as contributing somehow in this offense and he still could but there's just so many players in front of him those tight ends literally stand out from the crowd of other great athletes that live for life where you walk around and the dudes that have the shoulders walking around like this they're all tight ends uh and it's just it's amazing to see the transformation because you add Luke Reynolds to that group and now it's it's all of them um I would say two guys come to mind Xavier gillium blows my mind from uh not just this past year like since he got out to campus but we saw him at Under Armour in Baltimore May of last year and I think he was around 260 um I don't have the exact he was listed at 245 I think that's a little light according to Max Preps on the Quint Orchard roster uh he was probably around 255 260 then he's 309 is that what he is right now I think on on this uh on this list excuse me the freshman list we have here um it's it's impessive 306 thank you um that's like a Lifetime Achievement Award for the last 13 months of work where he we were wondering we talked about this on the recruiting show a year ago is he going to try and play on the edge is he trying to keep his weight down and then suddenly he shows up last year and he's defensive tackle size and now again freshman defensive tackle you always want to be careful but he's got the size and and Chuck Losi specifically mentioned him when he was racking his brain about what early enroll leads what freshman have stood out it wasn't quit Martin he went to first he went to uh Xavier gillium as an unprompted addition to the to the conversation so that's really good uh and then you know Quinton Martin I think again kind of like ekan Boer this is the natural progression where he needs to be just to fill out his frame he's going to be a guy that's going to be 220 225 and he's going to look lean at that size and that's the advantage of when you got a big frame as long as you can get his Pad level down and keep it down you don't have to pack on extra weight to have all of those things a part of your profile so there have been a lot of these tall running backs that have come through Penn State recently uh and they all have had different problems from tackle breaking and explosive plays haven't all worked out but you look at what he's able to do and what we saw from him in the blue white game and I I think you can't be you can't help but be excited about what he's going to be eventually at pen State and in a position where he can contribute now I think got you muted Greg well let's change that then uh does the uh roster update here change your opinion at all in terms of how many freshmen could contribute this year or do you just see this as standard natural progression for guys that come from all different types of backgrounds some guys of course in this Freshman Class had uh more advanced training be it at their high school or some outside entity you know we Tau we Nick Singleton still praising garage strength three years after he left the the reading area to come to Penn State and work under truck Losi but that set the foundation for the gains he made so quickly at Penn State other guys don't have necessarily the same training background and they get here and they get the program and they get it and the nutrition part of it kicks in and they just you know shoot up the weight chart uh because of that so does it change your opinion at all how this class could contribute or is it about the same as it was before this update it it's about opportunity more than it is about the the weight changes because that is the constant right is who's ahead of you who's going to be uh contributing and has that uh experience ahead of you that being said you know Peter Gonzalez 62203 and Chuck Losi singled him out as a guy who he and um uh his Central Catholic teammate Anthony specka came in he said you wouldn't know these guys just got here by the way they lift and their their level of preparedness but that's not the problem with Peter Gonzalez Peter Gonzalez has a massive hole in his projection to the next level because he didn't run any in Breaking routes when he was at cental Catholic and that's kind of an important thing when you're running when you're a wide receiver he's got the work ethic to get it done but does he have enough time and that's really what we talk about uh with these these players I asked this of um of KJ Winston because he loves football he's into the details he's into the X's and O's and I asked him like how long is it just a time thing how can how long does it take you to like know football to the level you can play to your to your uh level of of abilities and you know he talked about how you've got to be in the film room all the time and some of these things just take time but on that note dejon Lane is the guy that I think we need to start talking about more even though one of the guys I do want to point out in as far as that had got bigger this offseason and I think have that blend now of size and understanding of the game is Lamont Payne at that safety position he's the guy that I'm looking at now as the fourth safety behind the starting three of Jaylen Reed Zaki Wheatley and KJ WI because he flashed as a freshman Corner we knew he really wasn't going to stay there eventually just B based on his body type and the fact that he hit like a Mac Truck now he's 200 lb essentially and he looks like a safety and he's got the intelligence he's got the aggressiveness has he completed that transition to that position from a mental standpoint dejon Lane just got here but KJ Winston was raving about him as an athlete and a competitor so those are the guys I guess I would say I'm keeping an eye on but none of them really have a clear path to the field this isn't like 2022 when penate needed Nick Singleton and Abdul Carter to come in and fill holes that were obvious on the roster yeah Anthony po Dexter speaking uh at Penn State's assistant coach media day last week also compliment uh complimentary rather of dwan Lane as well so we'll see how that all shakes out T Frank moving on to a guy back on offense that does have a path of the field khil dinkin your thought on the way he changed his body this off season it's weird I wrote about this in our question series over at blue white illustrate. comom but for the first time in a while pen state does not have a number two tight end going into the season that you're talking about in the same way as the number one tight end I mean you know last year of course it was Doo Johnson and Tyler Warren before that it was Brenton strange and Theo Johnson there's been a few years now where that has obviously been the case you have basically one a and one B uh T Frank they don't have that necessarily at the moment this year uh but dkin put some more weight on as he looks to get the biggest role of his career here in 2024 yeah it's a pretty simple equation he needs to be able to block and catch at at a level better than Andrew Rapier who as much as I think we're all excited about to watch whether you're a fan or you're an analyst like me and you're excited to see a guy who can be dynamic as a receiving threat and the problem in this conversation is it always comes out binary and I'm I'm guilty of this of Andrew Rapier because he's 250 and he again walks around like a dude who's strapped from neck to ankle but he's also a really good receiver his technique and fundamentals at the position as a pure tight end from a receiving perspective were Advanced coming into last year and he's only had time to get better at that and the question is there were some clunky blocks during the blue white game is he going to be that guy as a blocker to push khil denkin and on the flip side is khil denin going to match the tenacity that we do know he has that Andrew Rapier has and so that battle is going to push these guys to be more well-rounded and I think from a receiving threat perspective khil Dinkins is different he runs like a wide receiver that fluidity you just can't replicate even from a guy like Rapier but the role for either of these guys there's a role where all three of them play and I can see very clearly that you could have Andrew raple is a backup to both tight end positions and khil Dinkins is kind of your agback your move back I could see rap the HB back and then khil dkin is kind of floating as a mobile chess piece but the the T it's Tyler Warren he's going to be the star and then how do these two fight for those roles in the offense and run blocking is really important and so whoever is able to do that better is going to be the receiving threat that's number two to Tyler Warren I guess that's how I viewed it going into training camp and at 253 now he has the size so he has to play up to that size now yeah there's no doubt about that I see there there's a comment on the YouTube channel about the embarrassment of riches at tight end and there's no doubt I mean Penn State's recruited that position extremely well Tai how continues to not just get the guys in but also develop them which I think goes unnoticed especially when you know we go into draft season the last couple of years and I I think Brenton strange and Theo Johnson both went higher than what most fans probably thought they would and when they op opted to uh skip the opportunity to come back for another season and instead go to the NFL so I think that says a lot about Tai how who's one of the more to me underrated recruiters and developers are Talent on the staff TR Frank two more on offense and if you want to obviously take this any direction you want with some other guys but before we get to the defense uh let's focus it offensive tackle and a position battle that's going to be fascinating uh this preseason camp there's no doubt about it Anthony donko up from 328 to 336 Nolan Ruchi up from 305 to 317 those are your competitors for the starting right tackle job both putting on weight this off season to try and win that job and I know that I think we're in agreement Anthony donos is the leader in the clubhouse there but Penn State didn't bring Nolan Ruchi in just to sit the bench or at the very least Nolan Ruchi didn't come here just to sit the bench he came here to compete for um a first team job whether he wins it or not to another matter especially with what the experienced Dano got uh specifically in the Cotton Bowl or I'm sorry the Peach Bowl but very interesting that those two guys uh continue to pack on the pounds as they get ready to compete for uh you know a very key spot on this Penn State offense it's I I can't believe I'm about to say this but Anthony Dono is the more athletic of the two right now from an overall standpoint which is crazy cuz Nolan Ruchi was one of the most athletic offensive linemen I've seen you know from High School in terms of being 68 almost and able to bend and be in an athletic stance at that size that was acceptable to block 51 defensive linemen in high school and obviously there is a massive transition that goes on the offensive line that there are so many variables that you account for but now he has all the tools Greg right 317 that's what he talked about where he wanted to get for playing weight I'm sure if he stays at penate another year that would be 320 based on his size because again seeing him he looks really fit he looks really good he looks like he could gain a little more weight and be kind of offensive lineman shaped but at 317 he's big enough the question then becomes uh does he was I think he was always a really good run blocker for an undersized offensive lineman how how much does this change his his ability to create genuine momentum in the Run game and then the pass protection stuff is the number one thing for me where I think Anthony donko from an athletic standpoint has um all the tools to be a great tackle and I the conversation we had the other day on The Message Board is why isn't he left tackle I think is a great question other than they already had guys they were planning to play at left tackle and then they had a need at right tackle so the younger guy steps in does really well during the ball game and so you just leave it as it is but I think it's a fair comparison to say that both of these guys have the athleticism to play on either side RI played on the left side at Wisconsin uh so it's going to be a real battle and and this is another situation where we've talked about a lack of depth Greg where you don't have players to push the starter or to create a true competition we agree that uh donko might be the leader but if Ruchi is providing that you know chasing element to make everybody better this only benefits Penn State and helps Shore up an issue that I think all of us look at the offensive line if we're being raisable and saying there's some big question marks there when it comes to level of play and a dip from last year but where where in that Delta do they get to do they get close enough that it's acceptable to what they had last year with two top 70 offensive tackles on on the offensive line yeah big shoes to fill for Penn State at offensive line of course they're looking for improvement at receiver and across the board quarterback of course as well uh at along in Andy colon Nikki's new offense so we'll see how these changes affect that uh moving on to the defense St Frank let's flip to Tom Allen's side of the ball uh Tom Allen just real quick on the side uh we got to talk to him at the coach's availability last week and there are intense coaches on this staff but I think Penn State fans when they first get to see Tom Allen who confirmed he is going to as Manny Diaz and other pen State coordinators defensive coordinators in the James Franklin era did call the game from the sideline L uh I think the first chance he gets to erupt over a positive play is going to surprise even the most aware penate fans of what he was like on the sideline in Indiana this guy is intense uh and he will let you know it physically and verbally so get ready for that Penn State fans it's coming do you remember a couple years ago when Penn State was good on offense and they were explosive and James Franklin would go nuts after a big touchdown now imagine they've got two of those guys on the sideline you know if penid good this year it could look like a mosh pit on theel from the P State coaches like there's a reality where that's that happens yeah and if you're sit if your seats are underneath the Beaver Stadium coaches box I think you're going to hear plenty of Andy C and Nikki too something tells me Tom Allen said that he would not coach from the Press Box because he thinks he'd feel like a caged animal up there and something tells me Andy Colden Nikki even though he's always been up there is probably a little bit passionate uh not just very well reserved and quiet and calling the offense and all those things so very fascinated to see how all that works out but sticking with the defense T Frank I guess let's start at everyone's favorite position at Penn State and that's linebacker uh three guys jumped out to you Tony roas obviously the seconde standout goes from 225 all the way to 239 on this Penn State summer roster update yeah Dom Duca puts on eight pounds to go up to 228 and Ki Jackson The Freshman made the biggest jump of all 226 to 246 let's start with Ras and work our way through that group yeah this to me signal knows that these guys are going to be playing in the Box almost with no question like with very little doubt if they play a run heavy team and do they need to move guys around yeah okay so we can have that conversation that Dom deuca can still play the Sam Tony Ro Roos can still play the Sam but Dom deuca was 218 last year uh on the on the official roster and whether or not he gained weight over the season or whatever I that's we're going as these mile markers are intentional and they're what we have to work with so being nearly two 30 part of it is a natural natural progression of him playing linebacker for longer and building his body up and you can't do it all in one offseason but it's also to me an indication yeah he's playing will linebacker Tony Roos is playing will linebacker there is absolutely no question about that and Roos being almost 240 gaining 40 pounds in the last two years he looks like it you know we've seen him at pennate Prospect Camp he's been out there hanging out with the other players that are around and help with the camps he looks phenomenal you know there there are only so many ways that you can describe him and still have like a masculine tone about it but it is impressive like it's really impressive the way he looks and the way he's filled out and he is going to be I said this I don't remember where I said this but I think when it comes to Pure linebacker not just Superstar at the position who then plays defensive end like Abdul Carter or Michael Parsons he might be the best pure linebacker of this group in terms of his ability to play in coverage and his instincts to seek can destroy in the Run game we'll find out this year uh but he gets glowing praise from his leadership to his physical transformation and I loved what I saw from him last year so I expect a breakout Year from Tony Roos because he's done everything right like he is poised for that and uh and then kyri Jackson it just kind of a jaw-dropper Greg where you look and you go a guy that was a three star we didn't really know too much about him cuz he got injured his his senior season and now he's almost 250 like he's he's heavier at 61 than Tamia Robinson is at 6 almost 65 is that all good weight I don't know but it is impressive to see that he gained 20 pounds since he enrolled at Penn State yeah there's no question about that you like where Abdul Carter's at up to two excuse me 259 yeah I I think 265 has always been the number in my head for him of what he would look like in that Tony Roos 2-year development curve of this is a guy who's going to be a pure athlete of the position and has all the tools cuz I think I don't think it's out of the question that he has the power to go along with the speed to be a complete Edge rusher does it happen all in one year probably not but he's now to a position at 260 where he can play The Run and play the pass equally well as long as he plays from a tenacity standpoint up to the size and that's the question with all these things is we know that these athletes are built the right way and they're going to have the explosiveness maximized in their frame based on on the training but do they then with the way they play go out and make it even better you know like fully maximize with their style of play I still don't know Abdul Carter The Edge rusher all that much cuz watching him in the blue white game he was content to run around people and not run through people so we need to see a little more of that he was used as a pure uh speed rusher and third down guy so I want to see more from the way he plays uh but the the one that is more Curious to me is Smith vilbert do you make of him at this point it's hard to know what to make of him because I think there's been multiple Seasons out and of course hton injury is part of this as well but you know he's listed at 292 now up from 284 and it's just go it's been another year of offseason rather of wondering if this is fining of the year he puts it all together and breaks out I think he's a role player for this pen State defensive line I'm not sure that he's going to you know if he's going to rise to you know the top four in terms of defensive end rotation that would surprise me I guess don't Ru anything out but uh you know when he when you see that weight he's carrying out at 292 it it it does make you wonder a little bit what the plan is for him and where they see him fitting into Tom Allen's defense is he a guy that can play inside and out we saw last year how Penn State did that with having uh you know three down lineman and move some guys inside things like that to mess with defenses obviously that was Manny Diaz not Tom Allen but I'm curious what that uh weight change means for him guy beside him T Frank cuz I isard is up to if I can find the right screen here 310 uh which is a good jump for him you know the defensive tackle equation here is just fascinating I mean you have so many guys like isard like Devon Ellies like hem Beaman who are back for another season and I think at times they don't get enough praise for what they've done at Penn States but also I think there's been a lot of waiting and hoping that one of these guys would eventually I don't know if it's fair to say blossom into a PJ muster but blossom into a uh bigger profile defensive tackle on maybe the Big 10 level maybe not nationally but maybe the Big 10 level uh and for a variety of reasons Health being in some cases a big part of it just hasn't happened uh and you know I think Ellie's is a guy that played well last year and you know probably does not again get as much praise as he should coming as he comes back for another season but it does make you wonder you look at this defensive tackle group it has enough numbers does it have enough Big 10 Championship caliber players and I think isra making that weight jump is good but it's not doesn't to my in my mind doesn't change you know I think that defensive tackle ceiling is high I just have questions about whether it can reach it so this is an interesting one I'm going to uh kind of take you in the Wayback machine with kaziah isard because this is what I saw from him at dtha when he was a prospect is he was a big body defensive end he was everything you wanted in a classic three technique he has the proper length I think he's got like like a 33in reach he's now 310 lb and he moves really well penate has not had a complete defensive tackle and Greg this is kind of the I guess the point I would make to support what you're saying is they haven't had a guy that can do everything they've had some undersized guys hem Bean has flashed a little bit zann Durant can be great he can be elite but he's still 6'1 285 290 PBS he's not 310 and a guy that the NFL would be interested in and that's really what we're talking about I think is the growth potential for this group literally and figuratively has always had kind of a ceiling and the players that have had the ability and the potential haven't reached the max of it to kind of break through that isard has taken longer than I think any of us have expected especially at the maybe the Penn State staff more than me but this is what he was supposed to be the whole time this is the player that I think they envisioned him to be when they recruited him and now again like we said about all these other players he's got to go out and play like it but he now has all the tools to be a complete three technique if I'm projecting to the next level or a guy that can play either position and pensei can have the flexibility to play Left Right and not have to designate a nose tackle and a three technique they have the size and the ability to potentially dominate in situations and get pressure from the interior that's another thing they just haven't been able to do is get consistent pressure from those defensive tackles and isard now you expect a growth from Durant they've got the weapons up front to go from a good group I think as you described them solid last year that answered all the questions there's some difference making potential now and I think that's the biggest thing with dard and what you would hope you get out of Zay Durant and that natural progression it's time to roll into the second half of this edition of BWI live before we get there if you're watching please hit that like button and also subscribe T Frank if you're uh want if you want more T Frank more from Nate Ryan Shan myself over at bluewhiteillustrated.com join us now you're never going to get a better deal than the one we're about to flash on the screen for you just here on the YouTube channel or on the podcast it's two months for $1 you need the promo code which I will get here in just a second but if you want inside info on recruiting team news roster updates uh the latest on official visitors we're soon going to be into lash bath season uh this the preseason camp is right around the corner all those things and more join us bluewhiteillustrated.com TF Frank to you have the promo code handy there it is is code psu1 it's a special offer just for you guys here listening to BWI live and of course the BWI live replay as well $1 for two months at bluewhiteillustrated.com use code psu1 that's psu1 at bluewhiteillustrated.com for $ deal for two months of access to our premium content uh that you can't find anywhere else so we hope you uh join us there subscribe there and please subscribe and like us here on the YouTube channel T Frank I know it's mailbag time we have one planned mailbag question but I want to get to this one in the chat from joshh Basin quick Josh I hope I pronounced your last name right but uh he asked how much is DC Allen going to employ a 43 versus his preferred 425 uh you with the linebacker depth I mean I'll let you get into this more specifically from a formation standpoint but to me I think that you know we've spent a lot of time talking about that this offseason and there's a good reason for it yeah it's matchup dependent so it's not this is always interesting because I asked Tom Allen about this and he said like we base out of a 4-3 we're you know we're a three down linebacker defense we like to play The Lion we think it provides flexibility and opportunity and then you look at his defenses and they're all 425s like they all run that style so I think there's a philosophical conversation that the coach will have and debate with you that I love that the reality just it doesn't matter um so it's easier in my opinion from a tactical perspective it's easier to face run teams if you've already got guys like Abdul Carter and Tony Roos on the roster it's as much a numbers game as it is a tactical one um and it's really hard to run the football so if you got guys that can blow up their Block it's hard to run the football you can also overwhelm with numbers which is the idea of the 425 having safeties that you can move around overload and predict where the ball is going to go and then get tackles for loss or win with athleticism so they have the ability to do both on the roster but the linebacker depth is less than it has been in the past they've also invested time and energy into this lion position they're going to play it so all things being equal they're going to be you're going to see more 425 than you're going to see any of these other positions now last year against teams like Penn State and Ohio State and Michigan Indiana went into kind of a hybrid defense where they had essentially what Abdul Carter's position would do which is float between the Sam linebacker and an edge rusher Pence doesn't need to do that because they've got the talent to have those guys just zone drop and and you know run blitz and and have them line up at defensive end and then drop and all of those subtleties and coverage and the subtleties and Alignment don't matter as much if you got four guys that can line up and control the line of scrimmage going back to Smith vilbert Denine did a set in 272 I think they can play with four down linemen and control the game because again we're talking about other players on the roster a mean vanover played defensive tackle at one point on this team so they've got a big Edge group I think that's going to dictate a lot of these things which you to then dip more heavily into your 425 and take advantage of the ability to play the run with maybe fewer players and then play coverage and and get to a suffocating level of Defense so to me absolutely Jaylen Reed 425 and when it's not Jaylen Reed they're going to be playing nickel Defenders Corners playing that slot it's going to be a lot more athleticism on the field that's my prediction based on what we've seen here from this group yeah and uh Tom Allen speaking about the line position saying last week it's an important spot for us and it's a big part of the new Big 10 the bottom line is that the position gives us more flexibility to do some things that you need to do in today's game context of that quote uh talking about Wisconsin and the way that offense has changed and the way it is not your uh you know parents Wisconsin offense that's for sure and so I think that is what when you talk about 425 in that line position uh you're right it's matchup dependent it's team dependent but a lot of teams are certainly playing an offensive style including Penn State that lends itself to more 425 uh then 43 especially when you have the linebacker situation uh that Penn State does uh T let's get into our planned mailbag question and I'm going to paraphrase this and if you feel like you need to add some more context before we get into it pop on the screen for those of you listening but basically the question today is can Penn State's uh receivers room actually be better even if the stats aren't better than they were a year ago that's a rough way of phrasing this but uh essentially the question is this could a successful rebound for the wide receivers look like three catching closer to 40 passes but significantly more production from the running backs and tight ends in the passing game and also a drop rate that is half of what it was in 2023 keep in mind part of that drop rate was Tyler Warren in the tight end position but uh you know I think the the whole idea here is can Mo and this is the title of Today's Show epode episode of course but can more uh you know happen uh even with less production for the receivers and what would that look like if that is the case so towns in nit hit a bit of a nerve here Greg because and this is I'm going to do my best to not get too deep into my feelings but I literally been writing about this all offseason all offseason this is you look at the film and we're going to go through some of this and by the way you're getting the good stuff today I'm squeezing the juice out of the orange you're going to get some premium content on the show now some of it is from months ago but I just want everyone to be aware of that's the point of this offense that's the point of any Nikki that's going to get into what we talk about with the Stag B once we get through this particular topic about specifically the wide receivers there's two ways we can look at this um I wrote about the players that can stand to benefit the most from Annie K Nikki's offense back I think in February or March and the receivers specifically the slot receiver because Luke Grim was very good for them last year but generally he's been very good about dialing up big plays for those receivers the the the yards per catch and all of these numbers are so much higher in the Kansas offense than they were in the Penn State offense a year ago they and let's just get into some of these numbers that are meaningful to this particular conversation we're going to start with some big pitcher and then we'll get to some nuanced things in yards per route run so this is the total targets that uh receivers saw from these two teams last year 376 targets for Penn State 295 for Kansas so Penn State threw the ball significantly more despite being a run team by the way just the way they put together these long SLO drives they had more plays but if you look at the number of explosive plays despite throwing the ball significantly fewer times Kansas had 20 more explosive passing plays than Penn State that shows up all over the stats yards per reception average depth of Target yards per route run all of these efficiency metrics that towns and nit is talking about it's not just the drops it's not just the throwaway it's not just the dead plays in the offense it's generating those explosive plays but designing the offense to have a strong run element be led in certain situations by that but being able to generate these explosive plays even when I would I would say the Kansas offense did not feature an elite passer and good receivers maybe underrated receivers but receivers that pen State should definitely have more Talent than not only from the top three but the depth of the room based on recruiting and their ability to uh just bring talent in Greg so this is the game Tal and it hit on it exactly this is going to be an efficient explosive passing attack that uses all of the things we've talked about with Andy C Nikki in my film rooms and over when we've been dissecting this stuff these run pass blending opportunities to generate explosive plays that's it that's the point of this offense yeah and it's why Andy ceki was brought in James Franklin talked a lot uh at his recent news conference last week you can find that video if you missed it here on the blue white Illustrated YouTube channel if you're on the podcast uh check us out Blue illustrate. comom on YouTube but uh you know James Franklin talked about I he made it very clear to point out that he feels like they're back to having more of a mix of all the different things that each coordinator before Andy c c Nikki did but they're doing it in a more focused way I think is probably the takeaway there and also I thought it was interesting that he went out of his way uh to point out that there's a focus now on making sure they're a emphasizing what each player does best and then B getting the best players the ball and that was not always the case last year for whatever reason I think it's easy to blame Mike yich I'm not sure that was all totally on him but there's no question that I think it's fair to wonder if he took advantage enough of Penn State's tight ends last year especially considering the receiver situation but we have been down that road a million times so we don't need to go down more data on that one I have so much more data we can talk about with that I think Drew all is a part of that and the confidence instilled in him by Andy K Nikki and James Franklin this offseason has to take rote and because explosive plays over the middle to the tight ends that was Theo Johnson's bag there were multiple times he was running down the scam where there was an opportunity not wide open but an opportunity and the ball went other places so not to cut you off I just that that's absolutely 100% correct Greg you you hit that one on the head yeah so I mean I think the the idea here behind the thesis is that Penn State does not look I I saw someone in the comment earlier and I don't disagree which is basically uh paraphrase saying that you need NFL receivers to to have an NFL caliber receiver room and I totally get that and I don't disagree but I don't think it's crazy to sit here and say that if you would have a upper middle tier receivers room this year I'm not saying top 10 but top 20 a top 25 maybe it's a little bit On The Fringe maybe a little bit too far down but I don't think you need the nation's number one receivers room to get where pen State wants to go and make a 12 team playoff I you know top 15 top 20 I think you can do that I don't think you know again the statistics may only put them in the top 20 like you know the back half of the top 20 we may sit here and say well that's not very good but to the efficiency point of all this if you're doing things in a way that a gets the running game going and you have a a very productive running game and you just need the passing game at times to set that up and utilize some other things in this Andy CI offense and I I don't think it's the end of the world and there's a part of me that says we're setting the I'm setting the bar too low because I just don't know what to expect with this receivers room anymore and there's a part of me that that truly believes that uh you know Penn State just needs some obviously uh big production in consistency or or big increase in consistency rather but also uh just you know uh uh the ability to use the passing game when they need to and then when they don't need to and then they want to and that was not obviously the case a year ago so I'm going to get into that here one quick diversion Ryan Shear I put this up earlier he says 71 people watching this 18 likes we can do better we can absolutely do better appreciate you Ryan please like the video uh helps everyone know that this uh this conversation doesn't suck I always say we're we're all battling the almighty algorithm on the internet so I always appreciate that he does ask this he says um how are big 10 defense is different than what Co Andy cot Nikki went against through uh his time and that will limit explosive plays versus his history so like what's the difference between the Big 10 and the Big 12 and that's the thing we're going to I'm going to touch on part of this right now but really it goes back to he's gotten explosive plays everywhere so that's a history you can't ignore that it's not just one stop it's not just against Big 12 defenses which safeties in the Big 12 think that coverage is optional and I don't understand how that's possible but uh that's kind of the reality some of these things that you do to break the defense won't break the defense against an Iowa or a Michigan or an Ohio state that have talented players that don't make big mistakes but here is talking about the players you have on the roster Greg to your point about do they need to just be an average wide receiver room yards per route run this is a bit of an obscure stat but what it is what what it describes is um your efficiency how many routes you run in the empty calories in those routes so your total yardage essentially divided by the number of routes you run and if you can't see this apologize I was having some difficulties usually my Graphics are better than this but I'm going to put this up again if you notice all three of the leading receivers for Kansas are ahead of pen State's receivers 2.51 that's a good number that's a healthy number in average of yards per route run three and above is Elite two and below is a problem all of Penn State's receivers last year have two and Below all of Penn State all of Kansas's receivers are two and above Keandre Lambert Smith is an NFL Talent like from a talent perspective easy answer can run every route explosive fast all that stuff from a talent perspective Trey Wallace is an NFL receiver from a talent perspective he doesn't have to run a 4-3 with a composite amount of skills from a physical perspective to play in the NFL with no question getting the efficiency out of those guys' Health mentality and opportunity they can solve the opportunity one and they're working on the other two Health we'll see but like they have the opportunity now to be more explosive and to get better results with the same Talent so yes they can absolutely get more blood from this Stone Andy Co Nikki's talked about it Marcus Hagen's talked about it that this group has been a bit of a punching bag um and I think that when you look at kind of the totality of the offense you force fed Keandre Lambert Smith 10 and some targets or 85 targets whatever it was the majority of the targets having a more cohesive plan to get more players involved with more opportunity is absolutely the plan for this offense going forward yeah and I think think that's where the talk about Quinton Martin fits into this conversation and is he a guy that Penn State can get some use out of in the receiving game despite being a running back how can the running backs be better utilized in the receiving game you know we heard you know KRON Allen flashed maybe the biggest smile we've seen earlier this winter before spring I you know it was during spring practice I believe but just talking about how they can be utilized in this offense in ways that he hasn't been at Penn State specifically as a receiver uh him and Nick obviously have plenty of experience as pass catchers can they be a part of what solves uh the receiver issue cuz that's let's just boil it down to this uh the numbers you just talked about kind of say it all and what all of it is to me is that yeah the receiver room needs to be better but if you have guys on the roster who can help mitigate uh some of the weaknesses they may have as a collective group uh you need to use them and I'm not sure pen state did enough of that last year so what can Andy Co Nikki do to augment what the receivers room can do I'm not saying you're going to put uh you know Quinton Martin Luke Reynolds Andrew Raper out there on the field at the same time and split them three wide and see what happens um but what can Penn State do to you know build on the strength of its receivers another thing James Franklin talked about last week was the return of Harrison Trey Wallace and how important he feels like he is this offense this year you can't disagree with that you can certainly question whether he'll be healthy enough for a whole season to be the big part of that offense that we think he can be I mean again that the peach Bow's kind of the perfect example right where he showed some flashes and then uh got a little bit dinged up and you know wasn't uh wasn't available for some of that game and that's kind of been the story of his career so far immense potential um questionable availability so we'll see if this is the year he can finally stay healthy and on the field because if he can uh you know he has every reason to possibly end up in uh the conversation of being among the big 10's best uh receivers by the end of the year the talents there uh is the availability there and then of course is the play from the quarterback and the offense at large there uh for him to be there but I think that's what you know we've talked a lot about already T Frank and we're going to spend at least another two months talking about it two months in change uh because you know the numbers you put up there uh sort of illustrate the whole idea of this Penn State uh you know outlook on offense and that's you knew what last year was there you can find some good numbers on the offense in general uh you may be able to find some good ones related to receivers but there's a lot of Hope in what Andy kikki can do to improve them uh but there's also a lot of people and I'm in the same group group that just want to see it to believe it and all you can hear and see and whatever all the things you want during summer workouts during preseason camp let's see what it looks like at West Virginia and I know everyone was prob you know there's probably at least one comment saying well you know we should have more of an opinion before you get to West Virginia and that's fine but my opinion is just at this point seeing is believing I need to see it happen and I need to you know be able to put actual stock in the fact that what is being said in terms of improvement is actually uh being put onto the field in reality yeah and and that's where you you don't know I can give you exactly what's happened at all these different stops with Dan cold Nikki's offense what he's going to try and do and it still has to work like there's always that translation to Ryan's question about the Big 10 and playing a better level of competition but we've seen it replicated so many different times there is um you you gave me enough time to find this another premium article I wrote about three positions that are going to stand a benefit from Andy C Nikki's offense and we talk about the running backs we don't talk about them as receivers so again we're talking about a metric of average depth of Target how valuable are your receptions last year pensei threw the ball underneath over and over and over and over again so the passing attack as we've seen was incredibly inefficient so the running backs in Penn State's offense last year average depth of Target was Zero yards down the field they got the ball at the line of scrimmage so you say run after the catch in those situations gets you four or five yards is roughly what a running back gets so the value of that Target is four yards that's a run play a good run play but that's a run play average receptions are like seven to nine so Andy K Nikki comes in and his average depth of Target is extremely far down the field for a running back he aggressively uses these guys you talk about Quinton Martin talk about a move piece KRON Allen Nick Singleton these guys have received receiving opportunities and and abilities and threat can threaten the defense down the field so if you start four yards down the field with your average depth of Target meaning that there are wheel routes going 17 yards down the field and then you add in those five yards now you're near a first down for a running back which is so much more valuable than catching a swing pass and maybe getting yards but also maybe getting tackled for No Gain because you threw into a Zone and it was a check down not every single pass has to be a check down to the running back Andy cold Nikki does a better job of getting those athletes in space as running backs Quint Martin's going to be a running back he might line up in the slot but his position is running back and that's an important distinction these guys can be used more effectively and then you know Tyler Warren feature him in the offense get explosive plays down the seam open up the defense like a can split them both ways run your important player down the middle of the field Andy Co Micki is great at isolating players down the field and getting matchup advantages those are all parts all great parts of the conversation there uh and that leads us kind of into the last thing which I wanted to talk about I went in the way back machine Greg and I looked at the Wisconsin Whitewater offense from 2013 when he joined Lance lipold for the first time and then they developed their then decade long relationship as offensive coordinator and head coach where he followed him from Wisconsin Whitewater to Buffalo then to Kansas I found some really interesting stuff that I wanted to go over here uh to get uh out of the show because I think it also talks to it doesn't have to to be just like it was at Kansas uh there are other flavors of this offense under Andy col Nikki yeah there are and I think that when you look at kind of his career progression the things you you have outlined here so I'm just going to read them off for everybody then you can break them down as you go but Tempo pass to set up the Run uh there's obviously a QB we've heard about it all off season you're going to hear more about it the effective that QB must be able to run has to be effective in the Run game doesn't have to be the greatest runner ever at the quarterback position you know no Michael Vic is requir requ required rather easy for me to say to run this offense uh and then obviously getting the best player of the football which something we talked about earlier so as you look back through his career how those things evolved each stop he's made obviously a different level of football in almost every place he's been in terms of he's pretty much been on a career Arc Frank of each stop is a new level of competition compared to where he was before uh I I think that it's important to go back to this particular situation for the personel involved so Matt baren I think is his name uh there's a random D in the middle of it so I I I hope I spelled I hope I pronounced that correctly he is the quarterback of a of an offense from Anie Co Nikki in 2013 that threw 35 touchdowns and one interception does that sound like anybody Greg that we've seen from pen recently somebody who's smart withb I think I know that name I think I know that name yeah so you have a direct correlation to Drew Aller and also from a traits perspective they didn't run any read option in this game now I didn't go through the whole season and look and see if they ran read option in other games but this is a guy who's athletic but they didn't lean on the way they did at Kansas where they had pure read option the quarterback is pulling the ball and running for 20 yards on these big explosive play sets where he's kind of a focal point of the Run game they put the ball in the hands of their running back at the time uh I'm trying to get these names so that I uh sound official and smart so I apologize for a little bit of uming and eying here but he ran the ball in this game 28 times the thing that I think is important about this is we go back to getting the ball in your best players hands Jake Kumo was on this team he is a Green Bay Packer Buffalo Bill a a journeyman NFL wide receiver who is a cult Hero at any team that he goes to because he's a good football player 65 not super fast but he was dominant in this game he got seven targets for 103 yards Jordan Ratliff looks like the hero but Tyler Huber their uh or Huber their slot receiver two touchdowns average 16 yards per reception so again these are the numbers we saw at Kansas these are the numbers we see at Wisconsin Whitewater getting the ball setting up the run with the pass as opposed to setting up the pass with the run like he did at Kansas doesn't like you want to find examples of different skill sets and different abilities to then feature in this offense here's an example they threw the ball to a guy who was uncoverable and then that backed off the defense so that Jordan Ratliff was running into fiveman boxes they end up shredding that team for 146 yards from their lead running back now Barron did have 56 yards Rush rushing he did have some quarterback Keepers so that is a part of the offense Aller has to be able to run the football but it doesn't have to be service Academy running it doesn't have to be triple option doesn't have to be run uh read option the usage of the RPO the different things that we see from and if you want to get the full breakdown I'm not going through all of the things that I saw in this game I did a full watch along on the message board so you can go and see all of those details including Stills and different terrible drawings but to me the biggest thing was they didn't have to use the read option to create an explosive Run game that sets up well that they have both options in this offense and they can blend in special packages with Bo perula and they can have a standard offense that doesn't have to lean on those things with Drew Aller gives them so many more opportunities and you have the confidence of he's done it before I don't care if it's a Wisconsin Whitewater he dominated this D3 level at this game in the championship game so you that gives you some of the confidence we're talking about of this can translate to the Big 10 as long as the players stay healthy and everything goes how you would want it to from a luck perspective and from a the players are learning the offense and ready to go and all that stuff yeah there's no question I think if Andy kikki has shown anything over his career it's the ability to almost I mean I think back to like when Mike yich got here and the big question was would he be able to maximize Penn State's best players and that that conversation obviously was focused a lot on the tight end CU he did not have experience career-wise of using that position in a way that maximized it or featured it which of course with Penn State having such talent there uh that was a big question I think Andy koneki has shown that no matter what position he needs to feature he will and so I think if you're a Penn State fan you should feel good about that t Frank it's closing time here on this edition of the BWI live any final thoughts as we get ready to wrap this Edition up big recruiting weekend on deck for Penn State there was a wrestling question in the chat about where former Iowa wrester AJ Ferrari will Ferrari will end up I have no idea I'll be completely honest with you it could be anywhere anything is possible uh we do have a wrestling show coming out later this week that was not covered but stay tuned for more on pen State wrestling then uh but your final thoughts T Frank is we wrap up another BWI live it's mid June buddy it's going to be mid August and we're going to be right the thick of preseason camp before we know it yeah you you nailed it recruiting I mean the Tuesday show is turned into a recruiting show basically where we go with the the mailbag is chocked full of recruiting questions and uh you know I'm looking at fil I'm going to start looking at film for jier Joseph and and taking a look at some of the players that commit over the next couple of weeks so that's me um but generally bluee illustrate. comom is your place to go to get the information about the who the what the where the when and I'll give you the why later um but you know great stuff from everybody and I guess the main thing about the the second half of this show is just man we're talking about this stuff you know we we've been doing this for three or four months that blue illust r.com come join us and then we'll all be on the same page we all have the same conversation and uh and we'll go into the the uh year as prepared as possible I think the next thing I want to do is I want to start scouting opponents like taking a look at USC taking a look at some of those teams that pen State's going to face this year what they do why they do it how they do it and then get you prepared for that later in the year so you're not going into the USC game completely blind this is a new team you'll have an idea of what to expect from those guys as well well to get on the same page with us at blue white illustrate. comom join us the promo code we'll give it to you one more time it's $1 for two months of access just for you guys here uh with us on BW live BWI live or the BWI live replay it's psu1 code psu1 bluewhiteillustrated.com for $1 uh where it get you two months access for just $1 so join us there uh please make sure you like And subscribe wherever you're listening either on YouTube or the podcast feeds thanks for being with us that's Thomas Frank Carr I'm Greg pickle from blue white Illustrated uh back Thursday with uh the guy in the recruiting show and we'll have plenty for you as another official visit weekend gets ready to kick off have a great day everyone [Music]