Is Mark Carney waiting in the Liberal wings?

[Music] hi I'm Jamie [Music] Pon so on Monday the Trudeau government announced that they've got a new special adviser on economic growth Mark Carney the former head of the Bank of Canada this may not sound like a big deal governments bring in advisers all the time but for years there's been speculation that Carney could be a potential success to Justin Trudeau were he ever to step down which as the Liberals flail is a question on a lot of people's minds right now so whether it's warranted or not this new appointment has fired up the rumor melt what might the Liberals be trying to achieve by giving Carney this new role and at a time when the party's fortunes are looking really Grim what's in it for Carney to talk about all of this I'm joined by Katherine Cullen host of CBC Radio is the house we reached her yesterday at a conference center in Nimo BC down the hall from where the Liberals were holding their caucus [Music] Retreat Katherine hey hey Jamie thanks for having me on it is always so great so a lot of our listeners are probably familiar with Mark Carney's name and maybe they know a little bit about him but just give us a real quick Kohl's notes bio on this guy well the thing people really need to know is that this is somebody with some economic heft some economic clout as you said he's the former Governor of the Bank of Canada that was for five years while Steven Harper was prime minister he went on to be the governor of the bank of England pretty extraordinary to have a Canadian fulfilling that role and that was during the brexit process so some really tough times I think he's generally viewed as having handled that difficult situation pretty well he's got an impressive resume we're talking about somebody who went to Oxford he worked at Goldman Sachs um these days he's really engaged on climate issues he's actually a United Nations special Envoy on climate and finance he's also the head of transition investing at Brookfield Asset Management so a big investment firm so somebody who's talking a lot about the economy economic growth and the fate of the planet whether it was when I was doing Financial reform as governor of the Bank of Canada uh with the financial crisis whether it's my work internationally on climate change it's to ensure that we get the private sector to provide what people want what Canadians want that's the issue now that's the isue for a long time as I mentioned in the intro a lot of observers have speculated that he could be a potential successor to Trudeau or very least a key MP in the Liberal Liberal government I I don't want to get into that speculation so much right now we'll have plenty of time to talk about it soon but just in addition to that lengthy resume tell me more about why people think he would be a good political leader or a good prime minister why do they think that he has what it takes I think because he has such a strong economic Vision it's really his skills some of his skills at least maybe not the ones that are most valuable in politics but his his skills in terms of like policy and uh economic leadership you know they were they were put to the test both in his time at Bank of Canada and as I said Bank of England during brexit like that was a tough slog and he is well regarded for how he handled all of that you have to think too uh almost N9 years now that the liberals have been in power and one thing you do hear is that some people in the business Community are less than thrilled with the liberal government they're worried about issues like understatement yeah yeah yeah yeah uh like like really how you know how are we doing in terms of economic growth well not as well as a lot of people think we should be issues like productivity and and admittedly not things that most of us necessarily uh spend a lot of time sitting around our kitchen tables talking about but they have KnockOn effects right it has to do with jobs and our standard of living Mark Carney has thought a lot about lot of these things he's very engaged on these issues and so by bringing him on board the Liberals get to say hey business Community we we are we're thinking about these issues we're thinking about the economy and we've got this generally well-respected Voice who is going to be giving us uh some advice now to sort of help move us forward on these issues and and just talk to me a little bit more about you know what they're trying to achieve by bringing him in right now why they feel like they need him to do this in this moment and what this role actually means well I mean listen I I've asked a few senior liberals about this and they say you know listen we're we it's a big tent party we're always glad to have good advice but I think there are a couple of other things going on here um is not super clear what the role specifically entails uh perhaps because we haven't really asked a lot of questions about that it's been more the broader question of why why is Mark Carney here now but if you look at the news release the idea is he is going to bring ideas to the government about how to improve our economic situation Canada's economic situation how to create more economic growth I think one thing that the Liberals are happy about in the short term um over these three days of this Caucus meeting in Deno British Columbia is we're talking about Mark Carney and it means we're doing fewer stories about whether or not uh Justin Trudeau can can slog through all of this like it is it's a CH it's a channel changer I mean they're they're trying for more than that here certainly they're trying for some good news they're trying to show people that they're taking these big issues seriously all say too one thing that you hear even within the liberal fold there are a lot of liberals who say listen this deal with the NDP it pulled us further left than maybe as individuals they're comfortable with right they wouldn't necessarily have gone ahead with things like dental care and pharmacare so now that the deal is dead there are some liberals who say okay it's time to go back to the economic Center guys and Carney really represents that sort of Centrist seriousness about the economy that some Liberals are really hungry [Music] for perhaps some of the more cynical among us might say that this also no of of course of course not us that this is also a play by uh the Trudeau government to you know keep your Rivals close right yeah it's funny like when I I when I ask again folks in the sort of inner circle about this idea they're rival what do you oh my goodness we don't view him as a rival it's very normal for governments to consult but let's be real the way this is seen from the exterior is that there's been talk for a long time about the idea that Mark Carney would get engaged in politics does he want to be prime minister does he want to run to be an MP and the dynamic that has developed um even though again these these folks close to the Prime Minister swear that oh he he consults with chrisa Freeland and Melanie jol Le and he was already talking to people and it's like you know trying to suggest it's very Kumbaya um the reality is that anytime Mark Carney has said anything that has sounded at all critical of how the government is handling economic issues for instance he suggested that that carbon tax carve out on home heating oil that really kind of blew things up for the Liberals in a lot of ways Mark Carney said you know I don't know I don't know if I would have done that guys I'm not sure that is exactly the path I would have taken um that kind of stuff gets sort of shoved back back in the government's face to say well listen you even have people in the liberal fold with a big economic resume who think this is not such a great idea so I think that there is something about bringing him in saying they're taking advice from him I don't know if we'll ever get this level of access but I'm really fascinated by the question of what if he says okay uh listen carbon tax policy which he very much he believes in in reducing emissions but what if he says well maybe there's a better way you guys could be going about this is there any room to maneuver for the on that issue um you know he is ultimately an adviser he's not a cabinet minister he's not a decider but does it create a little bit of a challenge if we realize that he is sort of just positioned in a bit of a different place than the government is on some of these issues yeah I want to come back to that but just you mentioned Freeland she's come out and said you know Mark Carney's my friend this is so great that he is being brought into the fold in this special advisory role you know he's coming in to advise on the economy and she is the Finance Minister and uh there was a lot of um uh reporting and rumors flying around this Summer that there were tensions between Trudeau's office and his Deputy Prime Minister and so just uh Muse on that for me well the first thing I'd say is like spare a thought for chrisy Freeland again I know people are not sitting around uh regardless of who's in power feeling a lot of pity for Canada's Finance Minister nor am I suggesting we should pity her now but consider that this summer she got a whole bunch of questions about whether or not the Prime Minister didn't really have confidence in her and didn't really want her around that she had to take sort of ad nauseum um and now at this Retreat she has had to take a bunch of questions about whether she's actually being pushed to the side because of Mark Carney it's really great for our team to have Mark providing advice to the liberal party so that we can support Canada and Canadians so uh you know politics is brutal it hurts it hurts sometimes listen the the pier PV is really trying to kind of like push on a bit of a bruise there he started talking about the idea that Mark carne is a phantom Finance Minister now they have a lame duck minister right now who Trudeau is pushing aside just like he pushed aside other female ministers and he's bringing in carbon tax Carney someone and maybe trying to like stir things up a bit but so many cabinet ministers on the way into this meeting have uh you know said these glowing things about Mark Kerney but the truth of the matter is for people who might have leadership Ambitions at some point I don't know if it's an entirely comfortable situation for them that Mark Carney who hasn't been in the trenches the way some of them have over the course of the ne the last nine years is you know sort of having this moment to shine when they've been slugging it out and getting to be Center Stage when they have to be kind of measured about leadership Ambitions that they might have have right now right it's not a good look um although I suppose this is true for Mark Carney too it's not a good look to be out there saying you want your boss's job when your boss says he's not going he doesn't want to give it up yeah so there's some like there's some weird dynamics that are developing here for [Music] sure so look we've been talking about how uh he is being touted at as this star this guy with all this kind of economic heft this incredible resume but I just want to talk about whether or not some of the things that people like about him could also be a liability for him right so this idea that he is a a former Central Banker you know I know he wasn't a central Banker when they did all these interest rate hikes over the past couple of years but that doesn't matter to most people we're in such a Time economic populism is is former Central Bank guy the thing that's really going to hit with voters I don't think so um frankly but I I mean I do I do think people want to feel that the economy is in capable hands but you're right that the flip side of this is uh at a time where there's all this hand ringing about interest rates how do how do they feel about these institutions that said again he is a special adviser right now right he's not a candidate and he's certainly not running to be Prime minister so I think at this moment it seems to be an effective tool for the Liberals to employ to try to build a little Goodwill in the business community and maybe amongst some liberals I think the question of whether it's going to have any impact on most voters that is certainly not immediately apparent I'm also curious how they're going to deploy him will will he have a recurring starring role how often do we uh do we get to see Mark Carney on Parliament Hill and doing the work he's doing uh CU certainly they want to benefit from him but they don't want to sense that he is outshining the prime minister so you know I think he gives them a little boost but they need to be thoughtful about how they employ him and and see how all of this is playing with people too like is it on their Radars in the slightest yeah I take your point that he's not running as uh prime minister but the conservatives you know they're spending a lot of time talking about them right now right and so like why do you think think that is I I don't just as an outside Observer they seem they seem a little freaked out by it oh yeah for sure I I remember um talking with an MP months ago and you know they've been they've been making videos for a while now about you know sort of trying to bring down the impression of him I think there are a couple of things going on there I think that they see the conservatives see him as a threat if he is indeed the air parent they want to get into sort of branding him right now as um somebody who is problematic and can't be trusted and I mean the big thing uh Andrew Shear made an appearance here in Eno just as the caucus retreat was kicking off pier POV has been out this week talking about this stuff too they're really trying to push this message that a more of the same and B this idea carbon tax Carney because of course pure Poo's whole political existence in the last two years so much of it is focused around this idea of getting rid of the carbon tax so just trying to like push them all in the same pile at the end of the day Mark carbon tax loves the same policies that Justin Trudeau has imposed on Canadians they are they're they're basically the same people out of touch Elites and My worry is that he's going to push for a higher carbon tax and we know that because when Trudeau relented under my pressure and paused the carbon tax on home heating for oil heated homes carbon tax Carney stood up and said no there should be a tax on home heating right now in other words carbon tax carage believes the tax doesn't go far enough I have quotes from his book here p po I was like no big fan of central Bankers people may or may not remember during the leadership he was saying you'd fire the current governor of the Bank of Canada but um I think that they they do see him as a Potential Threat and they just want to cut that off any benefit the Liberals could get here as quickly as humanly possible yeah yeah they're bringing up that uh you this idea that they're all the same they're bring they're bringing up that he's linked to like the world economic Forum Paulie have tweeted out on X I've have such a hard time calling it that um that that uh Carney worked for the quote multinational billionaires Club he he claimed that he wanted to quadruple the carbon tax although I do want to be clear uh there's no evidence for that Carney has never said that he thinks the carbon tax should be increased at all [Music] but look like we've been talking a lot uh during this conversation about you know why the Liberals might want want Carney and what the conservatives might do to counter that but I feel like a really important question on the table here is why would Carney want any role really in this government including you know an even larger one than the special economic adviser right uh Trudeau's campaign director just quit a bunch of Chiefs of Staff are set to leave a senior Minister Sheamus Oran quit in July there are all these rumors swirling that one of his ministers in Quebec Lieutenant Pablo Rodriguez is on his way out to jump into provincial politics in Quebec thep as you mentioned just ended their agreement with the Liberals they've been tanking in the polls for the last year so why would Carney want to yoke himself to this party at a moment when everyone else seems to be bailing on them it is such a good question Jamie that I actually asked Mark Carney that um when he when he came to talk to us yesterday he he had a few answers he says first of all I I have a couple Simple Rules uh one if uh uh prime minister of Canada asks me to do something uh I will do it I will serve uh to the best uh to the best of my uh ability secondly he also likes to talk about uh this idea of he says it's not about um being something it's about doing something that the issues that are at play here uh transitioning to a local carbon future Canada's economic future that those things are so important that he just felt compelled to step in and and and see what he could do to help so that's the official answer I think if we take a little step back um we would also say there's been a little bit of a sense of like all right sir your name has been floated for quite some time now are you in or are you out there was a story in the glob and mail earlier this Summer that said the Prime Minister had asked and he like hey anytime if you want to be a part of the team buddy um so if he wants to continue to be seen as somebody with a big political future you know the the door has been opened and maybe it was time for him to to to walk through it but I think the issues you raised there are not insignificant ones that said if he is going to have a political future he probably has more credibility the closer he gets to the inside of the political process right like it's it's true that there are leaders who kind of like descend from on high and show up and have to find a seat but you want to be in the House of Commons right like is is he going to make the yeah and show and and show the people in the party too that you you are willing to do what it takes and Slug It Out with them when times are tough and let's be fair times are pretty tough right now for the Liberals [Music] and just one last question for you because you're in Ando I know you're talking to lots of liberals there do they think that there's some sort of plan happening behind the scenes here for for Trudeau to step down and Carney to take over I I don't think that that is what's going on on that level I mean the Liberals that I talk to say I think everybody understands that right now in this moment and I will say there's that big by elction a couple of big by elections happening on Monday that could create a bit of a significant shift in the power Dynamic but right now the vibe really is Justin Trudeau has earned the right to decide how he goes out and he has been really clear when asked again and again that he is sticking around there's a sense he really wants this fight with Pier POV that he believes that given the opportunity he can kind of like pull this one out of the fire but that it might come down to campaign time to really make it happen whatever you think of all that he seems to want to stick around and it is not obvious that there is going to be an immediate opportunity to replace him now he could change his mind I think everybody acknowledges that but I don't think we're going to get a whole lot of warning that it's coming if he does indeed decide that he has had enough of this most of the people I speak to say if they had to bet they think he's going to be leading the Liberal Party in the next election so there's not some Grand Design of um you know handing the Baton to Carney and again when I ask folks about the idea of bringing somebody who might be perceived as a rival into the fold the people around the Prime Minister say have said to me like you know it's just about having everybody contribute and we're a party that you know wants people with big Ideas um that said my colleague our colleague Louis blay over at ROK Canada did a little like look inside the room um that they put up online and he had a senior liberal quoted as saying well you know the Prime Minister likes a little bit of like competition in the room suggesting you know not amongst himself and Carney but Carney and other po potential successors so where this All Leads I don't think that's entirely clear right now and what happens if there are some ruffled feathers with some of the other people who might have leadership aspirations I don't know but the door was thrown open Mark Carney has put one foot through it and I think it's G to be very one that's it one foot so does the other foot go through does he make a run for it and also like how does all this play politically does Pier poly have succeed in creating an impression of this guy who is an elite and out of touch and you know um not the right thing for Canada or does this is this one brick to help the Liberals rebuild at a time where they're really struggling right now again we we spent most of this retreat in the media talking about Mark Carney and a little bit less of it talking about the Liberals leadership woe so even maybe like a day or two reprieve right now makes it seem it wasn't such a bad plan I have a feeling we're gonna be right back to that uh next week Catherine always such a pleasure thank you very much thank you Jamie thanks for making the time that's all for today I'm Jamie P thanks so much for listening talk to you tomorrow [Music]