West Wing Actors Mobilizing for Impact — Chat with Mary McCormack and Melissa Fitzgerald

Intro hi we're sisters Amy and Nancy Harrington the founders of the passionistas project we've created an inclusive Sisterhood where passion-driven women come to get support find their purpose and feel empowered to transform their lives and change the world on every episode we discuss the unique ways in which each woman is following her passions talk about how she defines success and explore her path to breaking down the barriers that women too often face today we're talking with Melissa Fitzgerald and Mary McCormack authors of the new book what's next a backstage pass to The West Wing its cast and crew and its enduring Legacy of service Melissa is an actor producer and social justice Advocate as an actor she's best known for her seven-year role as Carol on the award-winning television series The westwing while in Hollywood Melissa co-founded voices in harmony a mentoring program that uses theater to work with historically underserved teens in 2013 she left Hollywood to Champion justice system reform at allrise where she is at the Forefront of engaging the public in the expansion of treatment courts and advancing justice system responses for individuals impacted by Substance Abuse and Mental Health disorders she's also a recipient of the secretary of the Army's public service medal Mary is an actor producer and activist who played Deputy National Security adviser Kate Harper on The West Wing a Tony nominated Broad Broadway actress she's also known for diversity of roles across film television and theater including her portrayal of Deputy US Marshall Mary Shannon on the TV series in plain sight and her Tony nominated turn as Gretchen in Boeing Boeing Mary is an outspoken advocate for a whole host of causes from social justice and women's rights to Veterans issues and Criminal Justice Reform now please welcome Melissa Fitzgerald and Mary McCormick thank you what a nice we always start our interviews by asking what are you most passionate about oh I mean the obvious answer is family you know I'm uh married and raising some girls three of them so I'm passionate about that that feels like a project that I don't want to mess up um and then I'm passionate about my work I love to um to work and and I would say to find work you know um I love all acting but when you get lucky enough to do something like the westwing it's it it sort of elicits the most passion right because if you can do what you love to do and affect you know the world a little bit along the way that is the ideal that's the perfect storm of passion in your work it doesn't always happen so I feel very lucky when it does you know I am definitely passionate about my family I Passions do not have children I'm not married but I have brothers and nephews and parents and godchildren and dogs and I'm also I'm very passionate about them Mary knows that and and also about my family of friends um and and definitely my work I love getting to do the work that I do now in justice system reform for individuals with substance use Mental Health disorders so that they receive treatment recovery support instead of incarceration and that's been a passion and my life's work really for the past 10 years um over 10 years almost 11 years I can't believe it but um so that is definitely my my passion so take us back um where do your your Collective passions for acting and for service come from were those things that you have always cared about even when you were growing up yeah I think for me I was always into acting like I I could sing when I was very little and that sort of leads you to plays um and I I just realized I just loved it right away I loved the gang I loved rehearsals I loved staying up late with adults like I just love I mean I didn't do it professionally I just did it sort of locally when I was young but I loved it and I always and I thought you know the way young people do you think you can do anything I was like oh I'll just do that you know um and luckily I get to do that which is incredible I feel so lucky and service I think was part of our life growing up I mean I always um witnessed my parents you know having service as part of their life and uh it was just something that was sort of expected and just part of our lives so yeah I never it never sort of had to be taught it was sort of um taught by Service example I mean I would say the same exact thing um my parents were very um they're they set a very strong example of service and it wasn't just something that you added on it was just part of the mix part of what you did part of your day and um you know my dad has been well he retired but he was a judge for my whole adult life and for him he was so passionate about it and really passionate about helping people through the justice system and I'm I'm sure that impacted my my turn that I took but um but I also did love acting growing up I was very passionate about that and like Mary I it was like well how hard could it be you know I didn't know anybody who did it I learned how hard it could be but I loved it and it was it's interesting because I I left that out when you asked me what my passions were and I had the opportunity to do a play with Martin Sheen this fall at the Kennedy Center we got to do this really lovely play called love letters and I've forgotten you know I've been so immersed in the work that I do now that I've really let go of that creative piece of me aside from our book and being able to do that again um reminded me how important that is to me and to my life whether I do it for a living or not which I don't do it for living it was so beautiful I know I'm biased I know I sound you are very biased I am not I'm completely subjective on this it was gorgeous it was heartbreaking heartbreaking play but then Melissa and Martin have this beautiful friendship and Trust in each other and it was just I mean it was she they did it in front of thousands of people at Melissa's conference and it was stunning I mean there wasn't a dry eye in the house it was gorgeous oh thank you Mary it's true but I think service for me also like I Melissa knows this story I told it at my mom's funeral recently yeah was you know I like I would just grow up and there was someone in our guest room and I was like who's that and she's like oh that's Bonnie and you know with some questioning I'd find out that it was a woman you know there was no room at the shelter and so she was staying at our house until a bed opened up and but it was just sort of it was just sort of woven in it wasn't a it wasn't sort of talked about it was just done you know which helped I think it helped sort of set set us on that path there's military service in your family as well certainly in mine I'm sure in Melissa's too in most American families yeah so I I I do every year I do the Memorial Day concert in Washington because it's such a non it's a lovely event and it's nonpartisan and it's just a way to sort of reach out to Goldstar families and service members and say thank you it's a beautiful Memorial Day beautiful event and it's on PBS and it actually lives there you can watch it anytime you want um and I recommend it and Mary is a real um I know that it's very meaningful to you and she does it every year and brings her children my dad was a marine and very proud of it and um and I have lots of service members in my family but I yeah I think it's a nice opportunity for us all as a country I mean it's you know it's you think cookouts and beer and stuff but it's nice to take a minute to say thank you to everyone who's serving yeah that's we love talking about that's interesting well Melissa certainly has a story about Allrise yeah mine for sure um well I mean I I'd always been involved as Mary had been in service and I started a nonprofit before I ever got to westwing and did it throughout working with his Darkly underserved teens in Los Angeles on a mentoring theater program and then took that to Uganda right after um right after westwing ended like literally a couple weeks after I was on a plane but the work that I'm doing now for the past 11 years at this National nonprofit called allrise started when I lost a dear friend to addiction and Martin uh said to me why don't you come to DC with me to a conference this fantastic organization that's uh championing treatment courts treatment instead of incarceration for people who have substance use and mental health disorders who've gotten involved in the justice system and I said that sounds great I talked to my dad about it turns out my dad had started one of these courts in Philadelphia he was one of the people that started so it was sort of the perfect storm in a way and uh I came to the the conference with Martin and at that conference I met thousands of people who are working in treatment courts judges prosecutors defense counsel treatment providers law enforcement all working to make sure that when someone is arrested and enters the justice system who does have a substance use and mental health disorder if appropriate that they get evidence-based treatment recovery support so that they can return to our communities healed productive and and living lives of lives of which they're proud and to a person and my dad says this too that you know working in a treatment Court's been the highlight of my career in criminal justice because people get better before if they come back into my courtroom it was because they'd been rearrested now when they come back into my courtroom is to invite me to a graduation or a wedding or to introduce me to their children or to tell me they got a new job so you know who doesn't you know want to work in something where there's so much hope and hope in our justice system hope in an actual courtroom um so Martin introduced me to that and my dad and um you know I became a supporter they had just launched their veterans division which is part of you know all rise is the umbrella Justice for vets lives under that umbrella specific to Veterans and Mary has been an ambassador since the very beginning and they had just launched that and I got involved in that and um you know the story was the CEO at the time said uh you know we're we're looking for someone to head up our veterans Division and I said gosh if I were a veteran I'd throw my hat in the ring and a few days later he called back and he said were you serious and I said yeah and I was sitting in my apartment in the Hollywood Hills and he said when can you start and it was October and I said well how about January and he said how about Monday and I said how about January and he said how about Monday and I started Monday oh my God I know you might not even know that story Mary I did it a long time ago do I forgot that how that yeah I got on a plane I came to DC I stayed like on couches and looked for an apartment and that was that was it that was almost 11 years ago um and I i' it's been so gratifying and wonderful and and one of the great joys of it has been all the support that the West Wingers have given our work and it's and it has certainly elevated um my ability to do my job to have all this support and Mary has been of course Center as she always is and so has Martin and Janelle and Allison and Richard and duay duay was just on selebrity Jeopardy for us and play for allr so it's um you know Josh malen everybody it's been a real um it's a good family that way we really are it's a to answer your question that way too it's like we are you know I care about the stuff I care about sort of intrinsically and then I care about randomly a dance organization in New Jersey that duay cares because if D cares about all care about it it's sort of like we describe it as one of us sends up the bat signal and everyone we're on this text chain we have a West Wing text chain and you know I I don't think a a couple days go by before someone needs a video or post or or show up in an event or whatever so yeah we sort of all sort of all it's helped our friendship a lot too I think I I think it's helped maintain it you know we're all close anyway but um it it's like acts as like a glue you know because everyone's get so busy you have jobs and kids and travel and you know a whole bunch of stuff to juggle and I think that's you know it's hard to sort of work in friendships like that but I think the service has helped us stay even closer yeah for sure it has yeah and I found that in the rest of my life too you know I've found so many of the things that have kept my friendships together have been around volunteering or doing activities together yeah because they more fun yeah and they're your people if they you know get what matters to you then yeah yeah that's right they care just because yeah yeah and they'll show up and that's the other thing that this group does this group shows up and not just in small ways but in big ways you know Mary came down for our conference everybody else has come to our conference too Martin Mary everybody and um and that's not an easy Light Lift it's a heavy lift easy when you get to see you do that play so I think that's part of what makes the book so amazing um as Pop Culture enthusiasts and and a lot of what Nancy and I do and have done over the years is is in-depth research um for the television Academy so we thought we knew a lot about the westwing and we've watched every episode more than once and love the show but this book is such an amazing view of what happened behind the scenes in a way that we had not experienced before but also just this beautiful family of people like you were just talking about um So for anybody that's a West Wing fan that thinks they have read a lot or know everything about the westwing this book is really special um and you're the way you communicate with each other and the book is really beautiful so what was the inspiration of writing the book together well first of all I couldn't be I couldn't think of anyone who I'd rather write this with then Mary so that I when it started off there but um I was approached because I live in DC to by um a friend now a friend of Mary too Kevin Walling and he had friends who are book agents and they said would you do a behind the scenes of the westwing and I thought you know that's not really my book to write that's someone else's book to write and that's Aaron's book or somebody else's book to write and um and then I went and I was thinking about I thought you know maybe if it is about the friendships and why we're together 20 years later and that service is the critical component and and I was at um Mary and I were both at Alice and janny's birthday party over a piece of cake and we were talking about it and Mary's like yes service let's do it and um and uh you know was Co was it covid or just pre-co no it was just before covid it was November before covid it was 2019 and it was November because it was Alison's birthday and we were having a pizza of cake and I remember Michael Mary's husband was standing behind you and he was like guys it's a lot of work I don't think you sure had drink or two it feels like we'd had a drink or two and a piece of cake because it all sounded good and then during Co we pitched it which was so much fun because we were like we'd never pitched a book before and we did a big you know document we were proud of it and we and we loved like coming up with all the Angles and we thought stories and it was all fun and nothing else was happening and then we sold it which was super exciting and then the work began and we were like what have we done oh my god what have we done the selling part was so exciting we were like cheers to us we're killing it had to write it and we're like turns out writing's really hard like like hats off to all the writers hard with I mean I'm literally like in awe of all of you because holy cow holy cow and we did hundreds of interviews which was there were so many good things about doing that during Co because we got to see our friends and talk about the show and talk talk about our friendships and service and and that was great then we went back over and called through all those interviews and had to try and come up with a book and it was interesting because you know as we both said we wanted to start off by having it be this sort of friendship service some behind the scenes but as we did more and more interviews more things have came out that we thought gosh we got to put that in like you know there a bunch of key episode chapters where we do deep dives into episodes and where people are talking about a scene that they shot and they were just so interesting we thought we can't not put that time that Richard was talking about trying not to laugh and how he had to run around the corner that's just so interesting yeah we had crazy the thing that I think that made one of the things that makes this book special besides the service aspect which we're really proud of is the well that we had so much access you know that we're the inside we're insiders like we were there so they talked to us in a different way and and we have a different take on all of it because it's not sort of it's not reporting it's it was actually our experience and I think that makes a really special book for fors we call hardcore fans our wing nuts so that's yeah hopefully if he's the wing nuts then we've done our job Whats Next yeah oh good yay yeah good and so much love Yeah and I don't I don't think fan books are usually written from that perspective so I think it's um that's a real that's a real nice it gives it a nice I think I hope yeah yeah weans of the show in I love that you kept the episodes in because that was oh good we went back and watched those specific episodes again and it was there's so many more and so many more stories we we we cut so much out of it it's not a short book I mean we ended up we set out to write something about half as long as the one we wrote and um and there's still so much more and we were joking that we want to write a part two I don't know if we really do I'm just saying this but um I know no because I'm at work but otherwise we um did uh you know it's called what's next and our second book could be called what's left so much left and now what's next yeah and where did that title come from so uh go ahead Melissa you do no you go ahead well there so in the pilot it's one of it's Martin she it's the president's tagline he says it a lot throughout throughout the series and the way that came about which is this is actually so cool I think um in the end of the pilot Tommy schami was like there's something about it the ending that wasn't quite true to the energy of the White House like the energy of the White House when he visited and he talked to us extensively about this was that there was this constant flow of work and as soon as something was done someone was handing you a piece of paper and then you were signing it and handing it to someone else that it was never finished um and so he said to Aaron I would love instead of sort of ending it like a play I would love to sort of pull back on it and get the sense that it's continuing that the work continues and so could you let could we just with your permission let's do that and of course he jokes and says Aaron had to write a line for it because he's the you know he's a writer and loves words so he came up with the president saying what's next and that and it was a love it's lovely because it sort of says like it does it never ends right Service never ends there's always something else to do you know we hand the Baton to the next person and we receive a baton from someone else and we keep going so in Aaron's Brilliance he took two words and had this beautiful sort of you know uh blessing for the work continuing for the series continuing but also for the work continuing and um and yeah I just love it it's a great tagline for the president and it's it's a great tagline for all of us to sort of remember that you know you finish one project and there's more to do and so it seemed um appropriate for the book because of our angle yeah and we always you know Mary and I always say like what's next is our reader and our reader is what's next um and every every one of us is what's next each one of us is what's next and what we plan to do with the time we have left while we are here that's what's next um and you know as we get a little bit older as certainly as I do I feel like that that's less and less so we got to figure out what's next keep going yeah yeah absolutely and I also think part of the Brilliance of Aaron sorin Timeless and John Wells is is the fact that they created something that is so Timeless um we have a friend who's an activist and she she it basically has westwing on a loop because it's the thing that keeps her a Wingnut she's a wing nut and it keeps her optimistic yeah and in relevance wise I mean we literally were watching the final episode of season 1 an hour before the assassination attempt oh God so every and there so many things throughout the series that are happening ways it's depressing because you realize like oh we're we haven't made any pro like an essay you know an episode about the environment an episode about gun control an episode about and all these issues that we have not only not fixed we haven't we sort of gone the opposite direction right and it's um it's incredible how PR why do you think the wing nuts find such hope in the show I think it's a tonic it's like nice to know I think it's true I think there are tons of people in Washington who are there for the right reason who are there to do the most good for the for the most people you know and I think we lose sight of that because the loud mouths are loud and you know the toxicity is louder than you know people just plugging away doing what's next um and I think it's a tonic I think it's nice to remember that it's nice to believe that um that aspirational aspect of the show is really comforting and and important to remember to not lose hope yeah I The West Wing remember when I went to college because I I grew up with a lot of people who worked for the government including my dad and um as a Ada Assistant Attorney and a judge but I remember someone made a joke about lawyers and government workers and I legitimately didn't get it because they were the best smartest most committed people I knew and they could have been making so much more money doing anything else than what they chose to do and I think there is something really really in spiring about that and I think the Westwind was hopeful it was aspirational it appealed to our best and you know I live in Washington DC now and I meet a lot of these young people who are top of their class who could be making a ton of money elsewhere and working far less hard and they're really giving their youth to making our country better and um and I I feel like watching The West Wing makes me feel that government can should be a force for good in people's lives and when people need government it needs to be there for them to lift them Middle ground up I mean it's hard to imagine right because we've lost all middle ground it seems like it's so divisive there's no gray area anymore yeah so maybe that's I think there are people who want that still people who work in government who want that I think there are those people and I feel like in uh I think it would have to be an eron's you know capable hands to create something from that um I think it would be challenging but I think it was challenging then too we felt that those times were divisive too and yet the westwing grew out of that yeah but there used to be it is different there used to be a two-party system where it was about checks and balances right it was about it was about two sides feeling really passionately and compromising and coming up with some some some point in the middle of the line that you know that everyone agreed on and now it doesn't seem to be that like no one's voting for what's best they're voting just to hurt the other side as opposed to you know anyway anyway we could go on and on down that rabbit yeah absolutely it is a rabbit hole um so let's talk about your lovely Richard Schiff castmates again um what's can you each think of maybe one thing that you learned about either someone in the cas or about the way the show was made that you didn't know before that really surprised you when you were writing the book I did learn quite a few things about Richard Schiff that not necessarily I didn't know but I got a deeper dive into his um his his background as an activist starting when he was young and also you know his uh connection to the spal his personal connection um I certainly learned more about a lot of things I learned more about Alice and jany's connection you know her family connection from like her great great you know uh aunt and grandmother being involved in in Planned Parenthood from the early days I did know that her mother was very involved in Planned Parenthood because I knew her mom um great woman and um but I didn't know the sort of the family history there um Brad I mean I knew the I knew family history there and his connection did you know Brad's whole story of uh auditioning and that whole thing I didn't know it that in depth I don't think I knew it that in depth but I did know it I did know it um but not that in depth tell a little bit of that with to tease it tease the bookhead Melissa you do that one well he he uh he was told by his agent after auditioning it's not gonna happen it's just Absolut like there's a long story and I don't want to give it away because it's so good in the book and we tell it so well and I uh encourage everybody to get the book to read the story but but I think what's really funny is like the agent saying and and it was on a note too somewhere saying like not gonna happen he's not going to get cast in this like give it up and he did not give it up and it was either say not sexy not funny enough yeah not sexy enough funny um so and uh here we are all those years later sexy funny and playing the role yeah but he sort of forced the issue there's a yeah there he totally for the issue and he knew that that was the part he wanted and then he was up for a different part um they told him he was going to do a different part and he knew that that was not the right part for him that he was definitely a Josh not a Sam we learned a lot about I think one really fun discovery mode for us was when we went into the cast all the casting like we were lucky enough to get to yeah John Levy who's the casting director of the I mean he's directed so many great things that everyone knows but he did do the West Wing years and years ago and he gave us access to his binders which are like I think three or four huge binders of lists and I mean gold feedback and Deals and just all the and potential like casting brainstorming lists and so there was a whole list of which we put in the book of of different presidents that they were thinking about um and that's fun we found unfortunately for me because I'm an idiot we found um an early brainstorming thing for the role of Mandy and it said Mary McCormack not interested series television yeah no I know but you know what it all worked out all worked out however so that was fun that was a deep dive into some real westwing trivia we were lucky yeah and like that someone was cast for one day as the president and we're not gonna say who because again well we say it in the book yeah I know that's what I'm saying know I just want to make sure I want to make sure the book oh no we dish it out we dish it out in the book yeah 100% I me we feel like you know there was an an army of people who created the show and we wanted to make sure that as many of them as we could there's so many that we couldn't interview just because the book is already you know almost 600 pages but the that we could we felt it was really important to include them because this was a family we are a family and um you can't write a book about the westwing family and not include you know the cousins or the siblings yeah and that family thing I mean you know Melissa it was one of the reasons we decided to write the book too was that or the the way we decided to write it to to incorporate the crew as well because Martin sort of and John and everyone John Wells and Aon everyone set that tone right for the beginning that the cast is no more important than the crew the principal actors are no more important than the background actors um and that sort of was the way the show was run it's to John wells's credit it is the way he runs all his shows and um and is proud of it and should be you know because it's everyone loves to work on his shows because of it it's just a really respectful place to be and if you're gonna spend 16 hours somewhere it's nice to sort of you know be treated that way and it sounds like Martin Sheen really sets that tone 100% Melissa has a great story in the book which I think we can share from one go ahead Melissa take it away yeah well um you might want to start with your little phrase that you always say Mary about as say number one goes so there's a an expression in television and it is as number one goes so goes the show number one referring to number one on the call sheet number the principal actor and it is true that almost always if the number one is sort of a jerk the show is a little bit broken throughout because the other actors the younger actors learn from that they sort of go oh well if they're going to oh we can all do that okay we all do that whereas if number one is sets the tone as sort of you know professionalism and kindness the other actors generally follow and the crew and Martin certainly did that for us and and I know you know John Spencer Martin Sheen too and they they and they talked about it they took their role as sort of the Elder Statesman on this show very seriously and um you know one of my first days of well I think it was my very first day of work um after the pilot um when the show got picked up I remember you know there was a scene with a lot of background act um artists in the scene and Martin and I think I had you know one line or half a line and I was standing there and Martin comes and we're ready to go and the producers are there and the director and Martin starts introducing himself to each and every background artist that was there handshake look in the eye Martin Sheen pleasure to meet you you know happy to have you with us what's your name where you from and really create you know and I remember of course watching that watching The Producers looking back and forth and I thought what's he doing ah he's teaching all of us how this is going to go down from here on out the people are going to be more important than anything else that we are going to treat each other with dignity we are going to treat each other with kindness and that people are the most important and you know certainly there's nobody more professional than Martin and who's more on time and more on top of everything himself and set that tone as well but he also set a tone for kindness and um you know I think that matters and I know duay when he he was young when he started and he told us in one of his interviews when he went on to be number one on psych he said I went to that show Psych and he said it's m my turn now to do what Martin did for us I love I love how you talk about dle tap dancing behind backstage he's DL tap dancing amazing he is amazing phenomenal yeah that yeah yeah I mean how many opportunities like that do you have in life to go to work and have one of the greatest tap dancers alive just start tap dancing tap dancing with yoya ma okay yeah all righty yeah typical day at the office yeah James Taylor's playing later in the week what what when we did the um reunion uh hartsfield's Landing the reunion for when we all vote a few years ago um four years to be exact um when duay started tap dancing just on the actual stage I just what was like oh gosh I really missed this really really missed this yeah so we talked about um Voices in Harmony All Rise And Justice forvet but we haven't talked about voices in harmony yet so tell us a little bit about that so voices in harmony was which it lives in a certain way but not as an organization right now but we worked with atris teens like you know historically underserved teens in Los Angeles um and who weren't getting Arts education in their schools and we started a mentoring theater program so we used theater as a way to Mentor teens and so we had professional actors writers and directors all volunteer and we would over the course of a six-month program on Saturday afternoons we would work and do workshops together and at the end of that uh period of time we each teenager had a mentor who was a professional actor they would work with a professional writer to write a short play based on a societal issue of our choosing together and then a director would direct it like a 10minute or less play and then we would fully produce these evenings of theater um at pretty major theaters like the Canon theater the you know big theaters in Los Angeles and um we had so much support from the westwing family but also from Warner Brothers and and I had been doing it for many years before that and it was very Grassroots and then we developed a classroom based program that we then uh gave to Los Angeles Unified School District many years ago and um and then we took a version of that theater program to Northern Uganda and worked with former abducted child soldiers and sex slaves there um and other teens who have been displaced by the war and I brought a group of actors and a director and writer and we worked together um creating these three short plays on the issues they wanted to tackle and they had been brutalized by Joseph Cony and the rebel War there and the top ICS that they wanted to tackle were peace building and Reconciliation and HIV AIDS like attack the myths because so many people were dying of AIDS because of misinformation and um and that was a really transformative experience I think i' mentioned happened right after uh westwing ended and I spent quite a few years working on on that using that to um create a program where you know activism around the issue and um at one point which may be pertinent to this particular podcast uh ge made a surprise announcement at the International Rescue committee one of our partners at their annual honorary dinner that they would donate a million dollars to educate girls in Northern Uganda unbelievable Moms Demand Action work um and Mary we also wanted to give you an opportunity to talk a bit about Mom's demand action Mom's demand is I've been involved with for a long time because how do you not it just doesn't seem to be I mean they are doing incredible work thank the Lord and it's weird because you know when you look at sensible gun laws and Americans and how they feel about them I forget what the percent it's like 80% 90% I mean it's Americans are for them so it really is about you know uh dirty money and NRA and a whole bunch of other stuff that like is incredible that that still is happening and that our kids and all of us are still at risk that we can't you know go to a movie theater go to the mall without my kids literally we all say goodbye differently now like when we leave the house which is so messed up like they should just be able to say goodbye bye mom they should be able to yell it but don't you know because they're afraid so it's so sick it's just so sick so mom's Demands a lab for me and um Melissa and I when we were looking at the book because there's so many things we care about we were sort of trying to carefully choose so that we felt like we were representing you know a bunch of we didn't want to miss anything you know so um we did but and we did oh my God we did of course we did there it was impossible and also we wanted to honor the passion projects of of our cast you know so we were um we we we started there and then also I wanted to talk about the Trevor Project because um they're also doing incredible work for lgbtq community and uh youth at risk in crisis and there's such a mental health crisis in our country anyway for youth right now but if you add on top of that the homophobia and the horrific um policy that is happening um and in danger of happening it does can feel hopeless for uh lgbtq youth so um I think I don't know when my cousin my cousin Carl Nassib who was the first NFL player to come out and did so publicly on Instagram which was so moving and important um I think it was during our writing Melissa or I it was yeah it was during our writing so we just thought instantly we have to include that because of Carl but also I I thought how many lives did he just save because he is an NFL player you know because he is um he said and he said that great sentence when he came out he said I shouldn't have to do this right you know hope for one day when this is private or one day this is unnecessary as it should be who should have to talk about sexuality to anyone ever much less but but but How brave of him to do that knowing how many lives he might save and he's very active raising money for the Trevor Project also so 100% yeah yeah and I just wanted to give it shout out too when I had said you know voices in harmony our partners were International Rescue committee and International Medical Corp and International Medical Corp turns out is Janelle's one of her her um service organizations that she cares about but they're doing incredible work all over the world in hot zones and really having watched what they do firsthand um I was so impressed yeah one How to Get Involved of the things we hear from people a lot women in our community and people all over um is there's so much to tackle there's so many things people want to fight for how do you have advice for someone who wants to get involved doesn't know where to start how do you get involved with one of your organizations or something else well in our organizations you you can read our book because we have websites in the book and definitions like the sort of mission statements of the different organizations and that was really important to us and thank you to our publisher Dutton for allowing us to do that because it added a lot of pages but please go to our book that's a great place to start Google's another great place to start and I mean I you know I think a lot of people who probably listen to your podcast and people who are Wing nuts they are already doing things in their communities and internationally but I'll just speak for myself I don't uh pretend to have major advice for anybody but for myself it just starts from what moves me personally at that moment and it's different things at different times and find a way if I am useful is there something that I can contribute to this cause um and if not is there somebody that I know that maybe can contribute to this cause yeah yeah it can be overwhelming I know what you mean the world can seem you know when you start to think about you take it all in it can feel like well then why do anything you know and that's that is debilitating so I don't know start start somewhere yeah just little things you I think that's the thing we've been so lucky um and continue to be so lucky actors are lucky sport athletes are lucky famous people are lucky because they can um they get asked to do things and can affect big change with very little effort and that's fun and fortunate um but God we need everyone just doing tiny things too you know just Schoolboard things like we need we need you know just soup I know yes yeah those things we need all the things and little things too and so yeah if it's if it's just helping a neighbor it doesn't have to be sweeping things you know Lord knows and there are websites there are you know lots of places to look and and schools I mean even if you go to Starbucks I know has a board sometimes they have volunteer opportunities on the boards but um I remember when I was doing some work on advocacy around ending the war in Northern Uganda I was at a university and someone said well you know we have a lot of problems here at home why aren you working on our problem problems here at home you should be doing that and I found that to be very interesting and I said well like give me an example of what you think is a problem that you think I should be working on and she said well veterans need help in our country and I said you are 100% right and are you doing anything and she said me no and I said well that seems like that's your passion like you're passionate about it I bet you could contribute a lot to that this is what I happen to be passionate about right now and I'm working on this right now turns out iend end up working on behalf of veterans later but I'm like right now this is what I'm working on but you have a tremendous amount to contribute yourself I say that's your passion go for it and she did um so it's just it is interesting sometimes how we think that there are people who are supposed to be doing something and but but it's all of us it's each and every one of us has something to contribute one time I was feeling overwhelmed and I asked my dad about it and I was like ah and I was listing all the things in my life that weren't working and I was like and this and this and this and I have to do this and I was like sort of in a tizzy and and I said my windshield's dirty and I can't even see it out of the windshield and he went just clean windshield just clean the wind sometimes when I feel overwhelmed I think I'm just gonna clean the windshield so I can see the other problems like just do one little thing and then Things become easier you know it's a little yeah what's that book Bird by bird I don't know it that's yeah oh I'm gonna give it to you Janelle gave it to me years ago it's really good and I think it's it's also what you Community and Service were saying earlier that you um you help each other and support their passions and their work and I think that's a place for people to start as well like if you don't know like what what are your friends worried about it's more fun anyway fun to have Community if you can combine community and service it's way more fun um so much more fun yeah so I think you're right that's a great place to start be like hey Let's do let's go do a shift at a thing together because you know yeah just makes it um no it's funny that you just brought that up it reminded me when I I was um living with my friend an at the time when we started voices in harmony we'd have all our meetings in our living room at night and she would sometimes make brownies and come down and volunteer cookie she makes very good cookies but um and I would be like oh thank you so much thanks for letting us have another meeting here you know tonight and and she goes don't thank me are you kidding you just gave me an opportunity to be of service and I didn't have to leave my house she's like you're giving opportunities so yeah so I want to stress again to to Conclusion people listening that this book is not just for westwing fans because it is so much more than just a backstage look at the westwing so what do you both hope that people take away from the book when they read it I don't know I mean I hope people I hope the fans do I hope we get a stamp of approval from our fans because the wing nuts mean business and we do I think we deliver on that like because we had such crazy access but I think you're right and I hope other people um respond to it too for sort of its General discussion of con connectedness I hope that we have a good discussion about that because and then a sort of um a sort of push to remember how service should be and is so fulfilling what can be such a fulfilling part of all our lives you know um and it doesn't have to be big huge things it can be go to the website for Mom's demand and see how easy it is to do something it's so easy to do little things tiny things I mean send an email it matters to them and they will tell you they will tell you big things you can do and and and a huge scale of of tinier things you can do um and you can make a real difference that way so I hope we I hope we uh Inspire some of that you know and I hope that same as Mary I hope that people enjoy the ride of reading the book and get to visit revisit some of you know something they loved for the people who loved it and um be introduced to something for the people who who don't know it as well and then you know I I imagine that a lot of the people reading the book are already doing things in their communities um and I hope that maybe they'll be introduced to some more organizations and learn yeah about some of the on they hav and it's fun too if you love Alice and jany to to hear about why she's passionate about the things she's passionate about and how she's involved and how you might get involved too and so that's a it's sort of fun to have that Insight I think everybody please go out and get the book it's amazing you will not great Christmas great Christmas gift holiday it is it is that's good holid gift that is a book back to school gift it's back to back to school labor Daye St Patrick's Day there you go whatever day National Ice Cream day was you know last week you should have bought a book for that because you can pre-order it right so people can pre-order it right now is that definitely yeah that's true and we're doing a couple Live Events too it a bunch of signed books there's opportunities to get sign books and yeah we're where can they find out where can they go to get they can follow us on social media for sure because we are posting away posted so much in my life um so we're posting so if you follow us um Mary your handle oh I'm Mary C McCormack on in and I'm at mafy Fitz um Instagram also excellent well we have one last two- part Whats your dream question it's a doozy um all right what's your dream for yourself and what's your dream for women or marry maybe your your daughters my dream for my myself I would like a little more sleep um no I don't know um my dream for myself is yeah to continue to find fulfilling work that I'm passionate about I mean I think you know and keep my family safe and you know I would love more time with my f my kids are leaving the you know leaving the nest for women and my daughters and all of our daughters our our Collective daughters is to um is to is to not like my cousin Carl said that it shouldn't be a discussion like I don't hopefully one day we won't say she's a strong woman who's accomplished AB andc we say there's a strong person who's accomplished that whole pile of stuff you know I mean that would be an ideal thing like I sometimes I work with young actresses and they you know they are already I can feel it changing you know their their ownership in the world their voice in the world is different than even I start every email still at 55 and I'm a person who cares about this I still rewrite I try to rewrite all my emails and take out the eight apologies you know uh for things I haven't done and I hope for my daughters that they don't have that rattling around in them by the time that you know they get to the writing demanding email stage more voice more voice and less emphasis on gender or body parts or any of it it's it should be unimportant and hopefully it's not right now Lord knows let's all rally around our presidential hopeful um and because we have a lot of work to do we have a lot of work to do Lord knows we have a lot of work to do especially when you look at some of the things the other side is saying and doing um uh but one day I hope that it is irrelevant all the physical is irrelevant that is I agree with that 100% Mary um I guess my dream for myself that's a really good question um is this similar Mar's and that you know my I get to show up for my family and take the best care of them I can um and be a great friend my friends um be a great aunt and godmother um and that you know when I leave the world that it's a slightly better place because I was here um that would be my big dream um and then for the world I think that we have everything we need to solve all the world's problems if we all participate and care enough to actually do it and I I believe we can and that would be my dream to see that see that realized and that's I guess for daughters and sons thanks for listening to the passionistas project in our interview with Melissa Fitzgerald and Mary McCormick follow them on Instagram at Mary C McCormick and mat fits to find out how to get your own copy of what's next a backstage pass to the westwing or pre-order your copy on Amazon since we are not only business partners but best friends and real life sisters we know how unique and truly special our situation is we know so many solopreneurs activists women seeking their purpose and more who are out there doing it all on their own they often tell us they wish they had what we have so we've created a space for them and you to join our Sisterhood where trust acceptance and support are the cornerstones of our community by joining you become part of our family we'll give you all of our CIS tips on building meaningful relationships through the power of Sisterhood and all the tools you need to thrive in three key areas business growth personal development and social impact you'll learn from our panel of power passionista who are experts on topics like transformational leadership letting go of perfectionism the power of community and so much more you can connect with like-minded women and gender non-conforming non-binary people who share your values and goals in chat spaces at online 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