The Last Word With Lawrence O’Donnell - Sept. 11 | Audio Only

now it is time for the last word with Lawrence odonnell good evening my friend good evening Alex and you know what I was wondering last night I was wondering I wonder what Mary Trump thinks about what her uncle was experiencing last night and luckily Mary Trump is going to join us and tell us exactly that I mean the personal psychology of what the country witnessed last night m is really something extraordinary a deep dark dive into one man's broken mind is what I'd like to call it but I'm eager to hear how Mary trump diagnoses it that that's what we're in for it thank you Alex have a great show thank you and so the three full years of stupid press coverage of kamla Harris has finally come to an end after three years of Washington reporters churning over the question of what's wrong with kamla Harris last night they finally got their answer nothing nothing's wrong with kamla Harris nothing ever was they didn't think she could do this here's just a sample of headlines covering the vice presidency of kamla Harris the BBC KLA Harris one year where did it go wrong for her The Washington Post AA Harris staff Exodus reignites questions about her leadership style and her future Ambitions the New York Times kamla Harris is trying to Define her vice presidency even her allies are are tired of waiting this headline from Politico not a healthy environment kaml Harris office rif with descent and the biggest longest article of all from the Atlantic the kamla Harris problem few people seem to think she's ready to be president why why maybe because the Washington news media had been doing everything it possibly could to deliver the message that kamla Harris was not res ready for the president for three full years if you spent one minute reading any of those articles you wasted that minute and if you were forced professionally to spend more than a minute as I was you learned nothing about the real kamla Harris which is the whole point of those articles the conceit of that kind of Journalism is that the reporter can get the inside story about who kamla Harris really is how she really operates and how we should value her as a political player these articles are supposed to tell you whether she can someday do what we all saw her do last night and none of those articles predicted this program has been covering kamla Harris longer than all of the news organizations whose headlines we just read she first appeared on this program when she was the district attorney of San Francisco and she last appeared on this program in December when when a dump Harris movement was brewing at that time there were some who thought the way to deal with Joe Biden's age in the reelection campaign was to get a different vice presidential candidate who the country was able to see as a strong potential president because obviously according to the pushes of this Theory no one could ever see kamla Harris that way and as I've said repeatedly on this program I saw KLA Harris as a potential presidential C candidate and a potential president the day I met her in a small group meeting in Los Angeles in 2009 it was that obvious then viewers of this program have repeatedly had the opportunity to see KLA Harris that way as a potential president and I would hope that faithful viewers of this program were not at all surprised by what they saw on the debate stage last night vice president Harris being the same person she's always been easily crushing the 78-year-old convicted felon standing across the room from her afraid to ever even look at her both of those candidates on the debate stage last night were exactly who they have always been in December on this program Vice pres the vice president offered us a preview of some of what we heard last night I asked the vice president then what she thought about Donald Trump saying that immigrants like her parents poisoned the blood of our country I was raised as you know a child of parents were active in the civil rights movement and I was raised knowing that there will be some people who will use their voice in a way that is meant to dehumanize um meant to suggest that the vast majority of us don't have anything in common when in fact the vast majority of us have more in common than what separates us and I would interpret it I think then as I do now which is is it is language that is meant to divide us um it is language that I think people have rightly found similar to the language of Hitler and I think it's just critically important that we remind each other including our children that the true measure of the strength of a leader is based not on who they beat down but who they lift up and um sadly I think that there is something perverse that has happened in our country over the last many years which is to suggest that strength looks like a bully when in fact the the real character of a leader is someone who has empathy who has some level of concern and care for the suffering of other people and then does something to alleviate that suffering one important Democrat told me that that night in that interview on this program was the first time that he could really see kamla Harris as a president here's some of what the vice president said in that interview about reproductive Freedom some of which you heard her say last night this is about real people every day suffering and many of them suffering silently with we just saw the the the young woman K Cox and what happened to her I I've you know you're on at 10:00 at night so I'm going to assume that adults are watching Lawrence and I'm just we have to be real on this in our country right now there are women having miscarriages and toilets there are women who cannot afford to go to a state that will allow them access to the health care they need who are suffering there's only one state in the South and that's Virginia that still has retained a law that allows a woman to make decisions about her own body and so this is an issue that yes I do believe will be resolved in November of next year because I do know that the American people fight for freedom and believe in the woman's right to make decisions about her own body they were writing the what's wrong with cona Harris article then then when she was delivering interviews like that on this program she was the same person the same person you saw last night that's the same person that I first heard speak in 2009 and the same person on that debate stage last night nothing changed but what we all saw on the debate stage last night was a big surprise to all those reporters and editors who've been churning out all of those articles about kamla Harris for the last 3 years a big surprise to most of the Washington press Corps who could not clearly see the person who was right in front of them for those three years here's another part and I'm showing you this only because of how important it is the the way the vice president has been covered the last three years why it feels like a surprise to so many people that she was so strong last night and here's another part of Vice President Harris's role in the world that was complete Ely ignored by most of those articles that turned out to be so wrong about kamla [Music] Harris welcome you to M Zambia your Excellency the vice president of the United States of America Madame Kamala Harris please fill at [Music] home young leaders are part of what I dream about make me so confident in the future we love from the moment that I saw that video I've been waiting to ask you what did that moment feel like it was pure joy you know it's um we all hope in our lives that we can have an impact in a way that hopefully inspires or gives people a sense of confidence in what is possible for themselves and then who they love in their community and um it was very special Lawrence it was very special and thanks for sharing that clip I I hadn't seen that um it was very special and you know you've heard me say many times you know my mother would say to me Comm you may be the first to do many things make sure you're not the last and to to have an an I have been fortunate and blessed to during the course of being vice president have many situations where it becomes clear to me that there are you know people of every Age and and gender by the way who see something about being the first that lets them know they don't need to be um limited by other people's limited um understanding of who can do what and I think that's important and it relates to all people and um and so thank you for sharing that with me thank you that should not have been the first time the vice president was seeing that video it should have been everywhere I had shown that video on this program nine months before that but I didn't see it anywhere else because the political press wasn't really trying to report on what K Harris was really doing as vice president they were simply trying to collect gossip and sell it to you as wisdom and insight about who kamla Harris really is and it was worse with the right-wing media of course un Fox a venomous Republican senator from Louisiana said last year quote the vice president needs to work on being a little more articulate English is not her first second third or even fourth language the movement to replace Joe Biden on the ticket was also always a movement to replace kamla Harris on the ticket one of the earliest and certainly the wisest leaders of the replace Biden movement was Ezra Klein who in February in the New York Times wrote quote everybody I have talked talked to about this literally everybody has brought up the same fear call it the kamla Harris problem in theory she should be the favorite but she pulls slightly worse than Biden Democrats don't trust that she would be a stronger candidate but they worry that if she wasn't chosen it would rip the party apart as rein suggested a large group of democrats should compete for the nomination if President Biden stepped down and K Harris in Ezra's judgment probably wouldn't win that nomination Ezra Klein was of course smart enough to admit that the contested convention scenario could go very badly my only contribution to the replace Biden scenarios when they were being discussed was that the only possible alternative nominee to Joe Biden as I saw it was kamla Harris and that's the way it turned out when Joe Biden dropped out and 27 minutes later endorsed Harris and within hours kamla Harris had enough delegates to secure the nomination so they were wrong about KLA Harris's abilities they were wrong about what would happen if Joe Biden dropped out of the race and they were very very wrong about what would happen with KL Harris on the presidential debate stage this year Donald Trump was no doubt one of the big Believers of that large pile of journalistic trash that was churned out about vice president Harris and so I think along with most of the Washington press Corps we can count Donald Trump as one of the people who was very surprised by what happened on that debate stage last night for every presidential candidate prior to Donald Trump the debate stage has revealed next to nothing about how they would actually handle the job of the presidency the debates definitely reveal some policy differences but they usually don't reveal much more about the person every debate Donald Trump has ever participated in has revealed that he does not know how to be president of the United States and last night's debate thanks to kamla Harris revealed that he does not know how to be a human being beginning with the entrance of the candidates Donald Trump obviously entered with a plan to Not Shake Hands vice president Harris obviously entered with the opposite plan and she took full charge of that moment very much against Donald Trump's will so let's now welcome the candidates to the stage vice president kamla Harris and president Donald Trump KLA Harris Let's Have a good debate see you have fun thank you thank you welcome to you both Trump ENT you see there timidly and slowly on the left side of your screen thinking that maybe slowing his walk down would somehow give him a later cooler entrance but kamla Harris 20 years younger strides in purposefully straight for Donald Trump and instantaneously establishes domination over him we're going to do this my way is the subtext of what she is saying to Donald Trump with that outstretched hand and then for 90 minutes she spoke directly to the American people sometimes directly to Donald Trump to her right and when she wasn't speaking she was always turning and listening to Donald Trump the way a human being would and to in her way emphasize by her listening the absurdity of what Donald Trump was saying with her human reactions to what she was hearing Donald Trump chose two modes at the podium the angry and bitter 78-year-old man while he was speaking and the mugshot face while he was listening he did not once dare to turn and look at the vice president of the United States when she was speaking just mugshot face he wasn't looking at the moderators either he wasn't looking at us through the camera he was looking at nothing just lost in the wilderness of his own confusion of what was happening to him and what was happening to him was that he was being beaten much worse than any losing candidate in any presidential debate in history what you saw in kamla Harris was simply the most overwhelmingly strong performance by a presidential debater in the history of presidential debates which began only in 19 1960 so it isn't very long you can watch every one of them online most presidents never debated anyone I believe John krey I'm sure John krey won all three of his debates against George W bush I'd never seen a better presidential debater but John krey didn't win those debates by some giant margin the giant margin conell Harris won by last night there are no great memorable lines from the winners of presidential debates until now I have talked with military leaders some of whom worked with you and they say you're a disgrace young people might not know that prior to the political career of Donald Trump no candidate in a presidential debate ever dreamed of saying that the other candidate is a disgrace that could not happen until Donald Trump brought his life of crime and disgrace to the presidential debate stage last night Donald Trump lied to the voters about the voters when he claimed that everyone wanted roow versus way to be overt overturned Donald Trump claimed that everyone Democrats Republicans Independents everyone watching the debate wanted roow versus Wade to be overturned even though an overwhelming majority of the American people did not want Ro versus Wade to be overturned and so after Donald Trump lied to the American people about the American people and what they wanted vice president Harris said this Donald Trump certainly should not be telling a woman what to do with her body I have talked with women around our country you want to talk about this is what people wanted pregnant women who want to carry a pregnancy to term suffering from a miscarriage being denied care in an emergency room because the healthc care providers are afraid they might might go to jail and she's bleeding out in a car in the parking lot she didn't want that her husband didn't want that a 12 or 13-year-old Survivor of incest being forced to carry a pregnancy to term they don't want that and I pledge to you when Congress passes a bill to put back in place the protections of roie Wade as president of the United States I will proudly sign it into law the same person that was the same person I first heard speak in 2009 that was the same person you heard on this program in in December there was nothing surprising about any of that except to the people who were never paying attention to the real kamla Harris Donald Trump's response to that was of course a lie they have abortion in the ninth month they even even have and you can look at the governor of West Virginia the previous governor of West Virginia not the current governor is doing an excellent job but the governor before he said the baby will be born and we will decide what to do with the baby in other words we'll execute the baby there is no state in this country where it is legal to kill a baby after it's born Madam vice president want to get your response to president Trump imagine in that moment the Panic workings of the mind of of that raging racist being corrected on that debate stage last night by two black women the racism that Donald Trump grew up with told him promised him that that kind of thing could never happen to him Donald Trump's niece Mary Trump will join us next to consider what her uncle experienced in being crushed by vice president kamla Harris for an hour and a half on television scen around the world clinical psychologist Mary Trump joins us [Music] next I'll tell you something he's going to talk about immigration a lot tonight even when it's not the subject that is being raised and I'm going to actually do something really unusual and I'm going to invite you to attend one of Donald Trump's rallies because it's a really interesting thing to watch you will see during the course course of his rallies he talks about fictional characters like Hannibal Lecter he will talk about windmills cause cancer and what you will also notice is that people start leaving his rallies early out of exhaustion and boredom and I will tell you the one thing you will not hear him talk about is you you will not hear him talk about your needs your dreams and your need and your desires and I'll tell you I believe you deserve a president who actually puts you first and I pledge to you that I will let me respond to the rallies she said people start leaving people don't go to her rallies there's no reason to go and the people that do go she's busing them in and paying them to be there and then showing them in a different light so she can't talk about that people don't leave my rallies we have the biggest rallies the most incredible rallies in the history of politics joining us now is clinical psychologist Mary Trump Donald Trump's niece she's the author of the new book who could ever love you a family Memoir uh Mary I'd like to talk about the book in a moment but I want to begin with what we just heard of course he has to lie about you know the Harris campaign pays for crowds which is exactly how Donald got his very first audience when he came down the escalator at at Trump Tower he's the only one who's done that in politics uh but your reaction to I just want to give it to you it's yours whatever you want to tell us about what you think is important about the moments your uncle suffered through last last night well first of all Lawrence it's it's great to be with you when we have something good to talk about for change uh the debate last night was so affirming for those of us who've been in this fight uh for years now and I think when vice president Harris made those comments about Donald's rallies she inflicted a narcissistic wound from which he will never recover it literally is going to determine how he handles the next 50 days or however many days there are until the election he's going to be reacting to that from now on it it was a beautiful thing to see uh vice president Harris threaded so many needles with Brilliance with surgical Precision she went after his weaknesses as a leader his failures as a human being and probably next to the rally sizes the the most important thing to him his complete failures as a trust fund baby and she was absolutely accurate Donald didn't inherit $43 million he was gifted and quote unquote loaned that much money while my grandfather was still alive and then on top of that he inherited another 200 50 million so she had his number and the way he reacted to her the way he was incapable of looking at her uh was an perfect indication of the turmoil he was experiencing and the humiliation he will never get over yeah okay take me into that because I was I was watching his choice um and with him I I don't know if it's a choice I don't even know if he's conscious enough to make a choice uh but anyone else in that situation knows hey the camera's going to be on me all the time when I'm speaking and there's going to be the reaction shot whenever I'm not speaking I've got to think about my reaction shot and what I'm giving them on that uh C Harris was car Harris was just human she did what a human would do the other person speaks she turns and listens to the other person speaking he gave us the mugshot face like it was Frozen on there the entire time was he even aware of what he was doing or did he think yes this is this is what I need to show them in this moment well first of all I think referring to it as mugshot face is perfect uh and secondly Donald has no self-awareness he's only able to think about what he thinks he's projecting so he thought look at him there he's right now thinking he looks tough he looks mean he looks like a killer uh and that is not at all how he comes across he looks weak he looks afraid and as you mentioned he could not even face her that's how she dominated him from the moment she crossed the stage and forced him to shake her hand tell me about the handshake CU I'm watching his movements and I'm I'm watching him trying to you can see he's trying to get away is there some way he can get away uh what's he thinking there well I think he was trying to set the tone and yeah he's shuffling in thinking if I take long enough to get to the lecturn she'll just make the same move and go to her lecturn he was not anticipating that she would walk over to him no way and I have to be completely honest with you part of me did not want her to shake his hand not for tactical reasons I think it was a brilliant tactical move because again it set the tone on her terms I just didn't want her to have to touch him yeah I I mean I was thinking the same thing I was I there was a lot of suspense for me about would she shake his hand and when I and I saw it either way uh but then when I saw her choice on okay she's way smarter than I am that's exactly what to do and I would not have suggested it neither would I because again I I have been torn about this since before the debate with President Biden not because I'm I was precient at all um I didn't want President Biden to debate Donald not because I knew it was going to happen but because I didn't think Donald Trump deserved to be on that debate stage with the president of the United States he is as KLA Harris said a disgrace he does not deserve to have any respect afforded to him I felt the same way last night however she didn't have a choice there was way too much upside for her we know what Donald Trump's ceiling is we do not know what uh vice president Harris's ceiling is and she showed us last night that it's much much higher than anybody well not anybody you knew this I knew this a few other people knew this but a lot of people did not know just how high that ceiling probably is so uh KL Harris obviously reached into your professional realm psychology with some of the choices she made there talking about his crowd size which we know what that is with him that's everything with him uh how how would you grade KL Harris on on how she used psychological Tools in that debate A+ I seriously I I listened to every word I've since rewatched many of the clips I'm not saying this as a partisan I'm saying this as somebody who understands Donald Trump in a fairly deep way and is somebody who knows what makes him tick and the reason I think the debate was so successful was yes because she dominated him in a way nobody else actually has been in a position to she took full advantage of that it needed to be a situation that he couldn't control it needed to be in a context that kind of hemmed him in and again I cannot think of anybody who would be able to do a better job than she did but she also created the kind of contrast you were speaking to earlier she came across not just as brilliant knowledgeable and uh completely capable of taking over on day one she came across as an empathetic kind human being who listens the kind of leader most of us have been craving for the last nine years and she showed Donald Trump to be a broken human being well he is human uh but just not a successful one think about it this way for his entire life Donald Trump has existed on a very narrow band of the Continuum of human motion he's trapped in grievance rage and fear of humiliation and for almost nine years he's forced most of us to exist there with him she opened the door to the dungeon and showed us that we can exist in the sunshine again and that was one of the most powerful things I've ever experienced just brilliantly put uh as only you could uh Mary Trump I am so sorry we've we've jammed ourselves out of time here I wanted to talk about your new book uh who could ever love you this is your second volume now about growing up Trump uh and what we might learn about uh the former president in this book uh please come back and we'll discuss the book at another moment we ju we're just out of time for tonight thank you so much Lawrence thank you very much for joining us tonight and when we come back I have a feeling that our next guest was also not surprised by what she saw her friend kamla Harris do on that debate stage last night Marilyn Senate candidate Angela also Brooks will join us next I'm the only person on this stage who has prosecuted transnational criminal organizations for the trafficking of guns drugs and human beings and let me say that the United States Congress including some of the most conservative members of the United States Senate came up with a border security bill which I supported and that bill would have put 1,500 more border agents On the Border to help those folks who are working there right now over time trying to do their job it would have allowed us to stem the flow of fentanyl coming into the United States I know there are so many families watching tonight who have been personally affected by The Surge of fentanyl in our country that bill would have put more resources to allow us to prosecute transnational criminal organizations for trafficking in guns drugs and human beings you know what happened to that bill Donald Trump got on the phone called up some folks in Congress and said kill the bill joing our discussion now is the Democratic nominee for Senate in Maryland Angela also Brooks thank you very much for joining us tonight what did you see uh there last night did you see the kamla Harris you've always known oh my boy oh goodness did I I tell you it was spectacular um what I was really excited about is I think the rest of the country got to see what we have known about KLA Harris for a very long time um it wasn't just her Brilliance that shined through last night we saw the prosecutor who was building the case against Donald Trump but one of the things that really stuck out to me um is that Kamala was able not only to handle Donald Trump but she never lost sight of the audience uh of who she was really there to talk to the American people who she looked at and said you know what we don't have to accept the chaos that we have seen we don't have to accept Division and hatred we can move forward and I love that she was able to maintain that optimism to to really keep the American people uh really front and center even as she was handling um Donald Trump and and answering uh the questions so I think she did a really brilliant job last night Donald Trump said he's very proud of appointing those three Trump just uh Supreme Court Justices who helped overturn roow versus Wade the Republican candidate you're running against in Maryland is often referred to by the Press I gotta say falsely in my view as a so-called moderate Republican he has also praised Donald Trump's Supreme Court Justices saying that Donald Trump should get credit for because he quote nominated incredible justices to the Supreme Court uh so and and uh Larry Hogan that Republican candidate is endorsed by Donald Trump for that reason and others and so the the future of reproductive freedom of this country is not just at stake in the presidential election obviously at stake in your senate elections and all the senate elections oh absolutely so you know Mitch McConnell handpicked Larry Hogan because he thought that that Larry Hogan would give the Republicans the best chance uh to flip the Senate red and what we know about Mitch McConnell uh Larry Hogan and Donald Trump is that they all share that goal in common you mentioned that Larry Hogan complimented he praised Donald Trump after roow had been overturned and said that you know he deserved credit for his accomplishments now before that he also vetoed this is just two years ago abortion care legislation in the state of Maryland and when he was overridden by our legislature he withheld the funding to train abortion care providers across our state until Governor Moore came into office so this is a person who has a very clear record uh an anti-abortion record he's a person who does not support Reproductive Rights as as recent as two years ago so any claim that he is now going to uh to support this is is not credible but we know no matter what if Larry Hogan is elected he will hand a majority over to a party that has declared war on the reproductive freedoms of women uh what we know is that if he is elected there will never be a vote to codify in federal law row um because he would give a majority to people like Mitch McConnell Rick Scott uh we think about Lindsey Graham who have declared war on reproductive freedoms for women yeah I think people have to understand when you when you're casting your vote for Senate it's not just for an individual you are casting a vote for who will be the majority party that controls the entire Senate and everything that happens there and if you cast your vote for a republican you're casting a vote for a continuation of the Mitch McConnell power structure with other people in place oh that's absolutely right so this race is so much bigger uh than my opponent this race is is um not only about even it's about the control of the senate about an agenda for our country and and the The View that we have of the future couldn't be any more different whether or not we will preserve the rights and freedoms that my 19-year-old daughter deserve whether she will have fewer rights than her grandmother or whether she will be able to make decisions about her own body whether or not gun gun violence will continue to be the number one killer of children in the United States of America or whether we're going to pass sensible gun legislation that we removes from our communities assault weapons a ghost guns these are things by the way that my opponent vetoed and refused to sign legislation that would create sensible waiting periods for long guns and Merill and he refused to sign legislation that would remove uh ghost guns from our communities and so the path is it's a very clear difference and again when we look at these Supreme Court Justices who have rolled back our freedoms not only roll but who also hope to roll back voting rights and other things uh it would be Larry Hogan who's already said that he PR Ed Donald Trump and that these were incredible Supreme Court Justices we know the kinds of justices that he would be voting for and so we absolutely cannot allow the majority to go to the Republican party we must keep the Senate uh in Democratic hands Maryland Senate candidate Angela also Brooks thank you very much for joining us once again tonight thank you please go to Angela alsbrooks do.com thank you Polish American fears of Russian domination of Poland could once again be a decisive factor in this presidential election after last night's debate just as it was in 1976 when President Gerald Ford got that issue very very wrong in his debate with Jimmy Carter Polish American voters were surely listening last night when vice president Harris spoke directly to them that's next with Stuart Stevens here is how President Gerald Ford lost his presidential campaign debate with Jimmy Carter in 1976 there is no Soviet domination of Eastern Europe and there never will be under aord Administration I'm sorry I could I just follow did I understand you to say Sir that the Russians are not using Eastern Europe as their own sphere of influence and occupying Mo most of the countries there and and and making sure with their troops that it's a that it's a communist Zone whereas on our side of the line the Italians and the French are still flirting with I don't believe uh Mr Frankl that the yugoslavians consider themselves dominated by the Soviet Union I don't believe that the Romanians consider themselves dominated by the Soviet Union I don't believe that the polls consider themselves dominated by the Soviet Union of course Eastern Europe was suffering from Soviet domination and President Ford spent the next several days trying and failing to fix that statement polish-american voters were very worried about Soviet domination of Poland just as Polish American voters have every right to be worried about Vladimir Putin's attempt to seize Ukraine which borders Poland Russian dictators have a long history of regarding Poland as rightfully theirs and so after last night's debate it is possible that polish-american voters could become the winning margin for vice president kamla Harris in Pennsylvania and therefore deliver the presidency to kamla Harris after she said this Putin's agenda is not just about Ukraine understand why the European allies and our NATO allies are so thankful that you are no longer president and that we understand the importance of the greatest military Alliance the world has ever known which is NATO and what we have done to preserve the ability of zalinski and the ukrainians to fight for their independence otherwise Putin would be sitting in ke with his eyes on the rest of Europe starting with Poland and why don't you tell the 800,000 polish Americans right here in pennslvania how quickly you would give up for the sake of favor and what you think is a friendship with what is known to be a dictator who would eat you for lunch joining us now Stuart Stevens who met the age requirement for this segment of being old enough to remember the 1976 debate he's a veteran of five Republican Presidential campaigns he's a senior advisor to the Lincoln project and he's the author of The Conspiracy to end America five ways my old party is driving our democracy to autocracy and Stu it when I look back at the Jerry Ford moment it's nothing compared to what kamla Harris did last night with those 800,000 people in Polish Americans in p pyvan yeah you know just as somebody who sat in a lot of presidential debate preps I just thought as a piece of debate Artistry um it was so uh well executed I mean think about it uh someone in that debate world could have been the vice president herself thought about how to make Ukraine relevant to voters in America and here's a specific set of Voters and then someone went and found out how many polish Americans there are in Pennsylvania and then to lay that out as if she had delivered it you know countless times before um that that's just that's a very difficult thing to do and she made it look easy which like the great athletes do and they do extraordinary things yeah and and finding exactly the right moment for it because Ukraine was in and out of the debate uh more than once uh but it's it's also astonishing to see that Jerry Ford moment you see Max Frankl from The New York Times who just cannot believe what he just heard the president of the United States say uh and also reminds people how tame debates actually used to be prior to Donald Trump prior to Donald Trump that was the single biggest moment in all of presidential debating prior to Donald Trump yeah you know I feel nostalgic about that um because it was held at a much higher intellectual level um that you compare where all these primary debates started to go like freak shows um and then you know you had the debate commission which you don't have anymore um but I I thought that ABC did a good job with the debate last night and one of the interesting things is under the old debate commission rules which are no longer in effect obviously they uh didn't allow split screens they wouldn't allow to show reaction shots of the person not speaking and I I always thought that was odd because it's really not the experience you would have if you were in the room and last night that split screen was just so telling of the differences between these two candidates I mean if you just turned down the sound and watched it yeah you could see who was dominating this debate yeah it was the human being versus the mugshot Stuart Stevens thank you very much for joining us tonight thank you we'll be right back Stuart Steven gets tonight's last word