The Last Word With Lawrence O’Donnell - Aug. 27 | Audio Only

now it's time for the last word with Lawrence O'Donnell Lawrence uh some big news from Jack Smith tonight yes and Al I think you know when there's a new indictment that means Andrew Weissman will be the first voice you hear on this program during the next hour as well it should be my friend you enjoy the show I'll be watching thanks Ellie thank you very much okay well the stock market closed at a new record high today yet another stock market High during the Biden presidency which has been full of stock Market highs the stock market is apparently happy in the Afterglow of kamla Harris's Democratic Convention and her rising in the polls indicating that Donald Trump will not be allowed to ruin the economy with the stupidest T tariff proposals in history because instead of being president Trump next year the stock market seems to believe he will just be defendant Trump next year Donald Trump spent the day ranting on social media about a new superseding indictment voted on by a new grand jury in Washington DC the new indictment in the case of United States of America versus Donald J Trump defendant replaces a previous indictment with the same title and the same list of four crimes conspiracy to defraud the United States conspiracy to obstruct an official proceeding obstruction of an attempt to obstruct an official proceeding and conspiracy against rights the superseding indictment is ineffective Jack Smith's edited version of the original diment with the editing version incorporating in Jack Smith's view the Supreme Court's new invention of presidential immunity for official acts by a president this indictment is in response to that while Donald Trump spent the day worried about Jack Smith's and other prosecutors ability to close in on him after he loses the presidential election the Harris for president campaign released this ad for most of my childhood we were renters my mother saved for well over a decade to buy a home I was a teenager when that day finally came and I can remember so well how excited she was I know what home ownership means and sadly right now it is Out Of Reach for far too many American families during the Foreclosure crisis I took on the big Banks who exploited did people in the housing market and today corporate landlords buy hundreds of houses and apartments then turn them around and rent them out at extremely high prices I will fight for a law that cracks down on these practices we will end America's housing shortage by building 3 million new homes and rentals we should be doing everything we can to make it more affordable to buy a home not less I'm KLA Harris and I approve this message we were renters too in my preschool years for all of Donald Trump's childhood his father was a racist landlord who refused to rent apartments to people like KLA Harris and her parents Donald Trump the most racist Presidential nominee of a party who did not personally own slaves grew up to join his father's racist business which led them both to be charged by the justice department in 196 73 with violating the civil rights of applicants for apartments by viciously discriminating against black people the new superseding indictment issued by a grand jury today covers familiar ground for regular viewers of this program and for readers of our first guest's indispensable book the Trump indictments which now has to be updated the new indictment is 36 pages long replacing the previous indictment which was 45 pages long gone from the new indictment is the dramatic scene that will be in all of the movies about Donald Trump's crimes because the Supreme Court decided to allow Donald Trump to commit crimes he committed in the Oval Office on New Year's Eve when the entire command structure of the justice department threatened to quit sitting there right in front of Donald Trump When Donald Trump if Donald Trump went through with his plan to make an obscure justice department official named Jeffrey Clark the new acting attorney general to help carry out crimes with Donald Trump that scene will be in the movie but not in the Trump indictment anymore the Supreme Court ruled that any crime Donald Trump conspires to commit in the Oval Office with appointed members of the executive branch any of those crimes are crimes that the Supreme Court believes the founders wanted the president to get away with the Republican Supreme Court is of course insanely wrong about that here's what Justice taji Brown Jackson said to nor O'Donnell about that tonight in your descent you wrote that the court declared for the first time in history that the most powerful official in the United States can under circumstances yet to be fully determined become a law unto himself it sounds like a warning well I mean that was my view of what the court determined you were concerned about broad immunity I was concerned about uh A system that appeared to provide immunity for one individual under one set of circumstances when we have a criminal justice system that had ordinarily treated everyone the same that decision was not a product of legal scholarship that decision was a product of Republican convenience every Justice who voted in support of that opinion is a republican only one of the those Republican justices was appointed by a president who entered the presidency by winning the most votes George H W bush is the last Republican president who entered the presidency by winning the most votes that was in 1988 and he gave us Clarence Thomas if you lived in a democracy where the candidate with the most votes wins there would be no other Republican Justice currently serving on the Supreme Court Clarence Thomas would be the only one the current composition of the Supreme Court stands in my view and in my view alone as a stain on America's claim to the world that it is a democracy and no other democracy in the 21st century would seven out of the 50 states decide presidential elections through an electoral contrivance created in a slaveholding country 235 years ago go a contrivance they tried to make sound serious by calling it a college the Electoral College the Electoral College gave us this Supreme Court not the voters and the Supreme Court has given Donald Trump his immunity which in Jack Smith's interpretation of that immunity decision still allows Donald Trump to be charged with all the crimes he committed while president that were not committed in His official capacity as president of the United States and so the indictment stresses that Donald Trump and his co-conspirators quote were acting in a private capacity in the new indictment all of Trump's co-conspirators are people who were not government officials rudol Giuliani being co-conspirator number one the other co-conspirators were all private lawyers turn turning Donald Trump's lies about the election into crimes the other co-conspirators are John Eastman Sydney Powell Kenneth bro and according to the New York Times likely Boris Epstein on page 12 of the indictment an unnamed senior campaign advisor who is not a co-conspirator is quoted by Jack Smith describing everything Donald Trump and his co-conspirators were publicly saying at the time as quote all conspiracy beamed down from the mother ship leading off our discussion tonight is Andrew Weissman former FBI general counsel and former Chief of the Criminal Division in the eastern district of New York he's an MSNBC legal analyst and co-author of the New York Times best-selling book the Trump indictments now in need of an update with a new indictment uh Andrew there's so much uh to say about this including how the Supreme Court forced the rewriting of this indictment and and what do you see as the the like way Jack Smith has tried to thread the needle to get this to trial yeah so one piece of interesting news to to sort of pick up on on your uh opening which is if for people who are counting this now makes five grand jurors that grand juries that have decided that Donald Trump is guilty of by probable cause of multiple felonies so this is the fifth time that he has been charged criminally um because it's this is start by the way with why this had to be a new grand jury hearing all of this for the first time yeah so that's a a great point because that really goes to the question of why now why was Jack Smith doing this like what does he gain from this one of the things that I think he gains is really taking an argument off the table and trying to say you know Donald Trump can't challenge the old indictment by saying the grand jury that charged that didn't know what the law was that it somehow was tainted by evidence that the Supreme Court has now said it shouldn't hear and so there may not have been a lot of Merit to that argument but this just removes that issue about whether there needed to be a new indictment because now there is one um it's a relatively simple process to represent a case they clearly did that and so it just I think will streamline the sort of arguments that are going to come both at the district court level and up to an including back to the Supreme Court so this is all an issue if KL Harris wins um otherwise this is all a relevant because Donald Trump will get rid of this in in a nanc so what does this do to the schedule in judge Chin's courtroom we were anticipating a possible hearing or at least argument about what should be allowed in this case this has this Rewritten indictment in effect is this become Jack Smith's argument about this is the the charges should be yeah I mean you know I had anticipated that he could have done this without superseding he could have just said you know we are not going to proceed on the following allegations but this is a definitely a cleaner way to do it Donald Trump as as his want and frankly as a defendant is is entitled to raise any and all arguments about he will certainly say there should not be a hearing on this until after the election we will know on Friday whether Jack Smith says no we should have argument in hearings about proceeding on this case before the election there's no way it will go to trial but you could have a lot of issues decided um because the key thing that um happens in terms of what's added and what's subtracted what's subtracted as you noted is all of the allegations about the Department of Justice and internal White House um uh actions are sort of deleted from this what's added is lots and lots of language saying that Pence acted as either a candidate or as president of the senate in other words not as an official um piece of action and that Trump was acting also in an unofficial way well Donald Trump can say I challenge that I think that's not right and you could then have a factual hearing now of course that's the last thing that Donald Trump wants is he does not want a factual hearing at least before the election because that would lead to people like Mike Pence being able to take the stand and testify that he in fact was acting as a candidate was acting as um you know as the president of the Senate that I think is going to be the Battleground and it'll be interesting to see whether the sort of reports that Jack Smith may not be seeking that kind of hearing before the election whether that's true or not it's not totally clear we haven't really heard from the horse's mouth we have really only heard sort of leaks that presumably are coming from the defense side and on Friday we should know whether there will be that type of hearing which of course could be really explosive because you of course Mike Pence's position and what he has said in the grand jury to Jack Smith is not public so one kind of basic interpretation of the Supreme Court immunity invention is that the president uh when he's ordering people in the executive branch who he can boss around whatever he's doing there he's immune from crimes that's a sort of quick dirty way of saying it the trouble with the vice president is he he is under no obligation at any moment to obey anything the president ever says to him he's independently elected and he occupies an independent constitutional office he need not ever speak to or listen to the president of the United States and so this Dynamic with Jeffrey Clark and Justice Department officials that may have gotten that scene knocked out of the indictment uh doesn't seem to have any impact on a very similar scene of Donald Trump talking to Mike Pence TR to get him to uh overturn the election I think what Donald Trump would argue on that point is that is true what you are saying about the vice president's independent function is true but when Donald Trump is acting as president in trying to convince his vice president to do something as long as he is acting in an official capacity the Supreme Court has decided that that would at the very least be presumptively immune and if it's within his core Powers it's absolutely immune just to be clear I think that is to use a technical term Bonkers I mean that is just an an outrageous decision KI Brown Jackson was unbelievably polite in the clip that you played in terms of what this means for the country the idea that just to be sure everyone understands the Supreme Court said even though that that Donald Trump is alleged in the prior indictment to have sought sham criminal investigations of his opponents he is absolutely immune to do that M that is the Supreme Court decision sham doj investigations absolutely immune because that is considered by the Supreme Court a core presidential function is seeking sham investigations just just to say it is really to refute it yeah um so what do you see as a timetable here in this in this case now um so I think that that judge chuckin has her work cut out for her if she wants to have a a factual hearing with evidence before the general election on the other hand that is in large part one of the things that the Supreme Court decision said she needs to do at least on some of these areas they said there are factual issues that she needs to decide so she could decide that she's going to go forward um you know the issue will be whether she's sort of helped by Jack Smith's position on Friday where Jack Smith says yes I'm willing to do that or whether Jackson says no let's do this after the general election and so uh as it goes forward and as judge shuin decides through one process or the other what she's allowing to go forward the Trump war is going to just get up and make a motion to dismiss pretty much everything in the indictment saying Supreme Court immunity she's going to say no uh and then they're going to appeal it up again to the Supreme Court yes but the it'll be hard for them to appeal it prior to that factual hearing yes um there's no question that they can delay the ultimate trial again of kamla Harris wins they can then they will definitely be going back to the Supreme Court for an additional ruling so this this could take a lot of time but the one way I look at this is if Donald Trump wins we know this is absolutely gone if carel hris wins at least there's a chance it will go forward um it just may take some time but that hearing where you will will hear additional evidence and there will be new material for the public to digest about Donald Trump and what he was up to so it's something for us to go on in terms of what he did um that is something that will should happen prior to any potential appeal so will there be a new addition of the Trump indictments that will include this one well you know it' be nice to have something which is like a book that's about Trump convictions um so that we're sort of more at the end of the road but I think the first step is to see what happens in November thinking of the old law books which the computerization of all of this have kind of eliminated where they used to just stick the supplements inside the back cover they'd have additional material years later pocket theck pocket piece yeah could do one of those Andrew Weissman thank you so much for starting off our discussion tonight and coming up today Donald Trump's Alma Mo the University of Pennsylvania joined the criticism of the Trump economic plan because it would incre increase the national debt by over $5 trillion the chairman of the Senate finance committee Ron weiden will be in charge of either killing the Trump plan or advancing president Harris's economic plan next year chairman widen joins us [Music] next a new study from Donald Trump's Alma moer of the University of Pennsylvania found that the Trump economic plan would increase the federal deficit and national debt by $5.8 trillion today the Harris walls campaign put out a statement saying Trump's project 2025 agenda would jack up taxes on the middle class by thousands of dollars just so he can turn around and give tax breaks to his billionaire friends vice president Harris's plan will cut middle class taxes and make life more affordable this November voters will face a stark choice between a Park Avenue millionaire who's never known an honest day's work and a tough as Nails prosecutor with middle class Roots who spent her career fighting for working people campaigning for the Harris Wall's ticket in Wisconsin today Senator Elizabeth Warren a member of the powerful Senate finance committee said this the difference once again Donald Trump he's willing to say corporations do whatever you you want to America what KL Harris and the Democrats are saying is we need somebody on the side of the American people and she's joining us now is democratic Senator Ron widen of Oregon he is the chairman of the very powerful Senate finance committee Mr chairman thank you very much for joining us tonight uh e either these economic plans of all presidents come through your committee which has wide ranging jurisdiction on uh taxation tariffs International Trade Medicare Medicaid uh welfare policy uh what do you make of the Trump plans versus the Harris plans well first of all Lawrence today Donald Trump his alma mater gave him an F for his lousy economic plan and when you couple that with the Trump tariffs on working people you know who going to be paying for school supplies and food and other Essentials here in Oregon and elsewhere these are just horrendous awful ideas and we want uh economic policies this is what uh uh uh the vice president is pursuing I'm I'm pursuing that give everybody in America the chance to get ahead not just the people at the top Donald Trump continues to tell the lie and it's one of those things where I don't know if he he might not know what a tariff is I would love to have a reporter ask him what is a tariff but but he tells his people that China pays the tariffs that Donald Trump has imposed when in fact China pays nothing of those tariffs at all it's all paid on the American side by American consumers is is do you think it's going to be possible for KLA Harris to get that message through to voters in the next 70 days I do and the reality is is we're going to point out that we're tough on China too when it comes for example to slave labor these kinds of kinds of issues we just want working people to get a fair Shake I mean the reality is billionaires in this country with three words can literally pay no taxes forever if they buy borrow and die they can basically get out of paying taxes and people are firefighters teachers and nurses they pay taxes with every paycheck we're going to be on the side of those those workers we want billionaires to be successful but they can't have a free ride on taxes talk about how the tax code uh the way Republicans use the tax code basically to help billionaires Democrats have seen in the tax code ways to help Working Families with things like the child tax credit uh in in ways that are immediate differences in people's lives that's right and the fact is that Senators like JD Vance for example he wouldn't show up for work a couple of weeks ago when there was a chance to help 16 million kids Lawrence you know from large families who were really walking an economic tight RPP he could have got given them some real relief he just was was awall now he comes back and says comma Harris is against the child tax credit he'll be for the real thing there's no evidence that they're going to be for anything except helping the people at the top I have to ask you about something that I never in history would this be a question to a chairman of the Senate finance committee or in fact chairman of any other committee and that is that uh you and Senator White House have written a a letter to the justice department asking for a special counsel to investigate a Supreme Court justice justice Thomas saying that you have questions whether he quote whether he and his wealthy benefactors have complied with their federal tax obligations you're you're raising the possibility as a tax expert uh running the tax committee the Senate finance committee that it is entirely possible that we have tax violations committed by a Supreme Court Justice that's correct and let me give you an example of one that I'm especially interested in uh Clarence Thomas was given uh the money to go out and buy this Luxury Motor uh vehicle and it sure looks like it was a loan that was forgiven loans that are forgiven have to be reported on your taxes so you bet we are looking at these tax issues and then with respect to the trips we still believe that and we are investigating that there are other undisclosed trips Mr chairman we know that the tax code is complicated and it's it's it's easy to understand taxpayers out there who say oh I didn't know that I I didn't know if I had a loan to to buy something like that that if it was forgiven if my uncle forgave that loan I got to think about that is that income to or not but a Supreme Court Justice a Supreme Court Justice not knowing how to comply with tax law where the Supreme Court is ruling on tax law every year uh we've never seen that before we certainly haven't and to me in Senator White House this just looks like the justice is trying to defy the basic rules of Common Sense transparency and the rule of law Senator Ron weiden of Oregon chairman of the Senate finance committee an honor to have you here Mr chairman thank you very much thank you and coming up if there is a president Harris next year she will need a Democratic Senate in order to accomplish anything in Congress Nevada's Democratic senator Jackie Rosen is running for re-election in that important Electoral College State and she is running nine points ahead of her Republican opponent in Nevada in what could be a very good sign for kamla Harris's campaign in that state senator Rosen joins us next new reporting from the Nevada current has found that the Donald Trump endorsed Republican candidate for Senate in Nevada Sam Brown quote has received at least $50,000 in donations from Trump allies and leaders of conservative think tanks that have directly contributed to or signed on to project 2025 project 2025 supported by all Republicans would among other things abolish the Department of Education and the Environmental Protection Agency Republican Sam Brown is running for the senate seat now occupied by Nevada senator Jackie Rosen who is running for a second term recent polling among likely Nevada voters shows Senator Rosen ahead of Sam Brown right now by 9 points 49 to 40 Senator Rosen is reminding voters of repeating Republican plans actually for decades now to cut Social Security and Medicare I'm Jackie Rosen and I approve this message nevadans depend on Social Security and Medicare but Maggie extremist Sam Brown is putting them at risk Sam Brown embraced sunsetting Medicare and Social Security Sam Brown publicly supported forcing massive cuts to Social Security and Medicare and was caught on tape saying he admires the plan to phase out out Social Security and Medicare entirely in 5 years Sam Brown another Maggie extremist trying to cut Social Security and Medicare joining us now is Nevada Democratic senator Jackie Rosen Senator Rosen thank you very much for joining us tonight you know when I see that Social Security Medicare commercial that you're running it's a version of uh campaigning that Democrats have been accurately and honestly doing for decades now because it's not a new Republican idea to either eliminate these programs or cut them severely no you're exactly right and thank you for having me on tonight because Sam Brown is a direct threat to Nevada seniors we have a large senior population here and let me tell you most people go to work at age 16 maybe they retire at 66 that means they work for 50 years 50 years they've paid into Medicare and Social Security these are benefits seniors have earned and Sam Brown to put him on the chopping block and not only that he really uh disagrees with what we did in the inflation reduction act he said it's a big loss for the American people that we got $35 insulin a month for n uh for seniors all across this country and of course 1.5 billion dollars is going to go back into the pockets of seniors as we begin to negotiate those top drugs for Medicare Sam Brown said it's a big loss for the American people he wants to take that money give tax cuts to the ultra wealthy and leave Nevada seniors behind uh Senator you know I'm not a big uh I don't take polls as facts I don't take your 49 uh to 49-point lead as a fact uh this could be a much closer race than that as we speak right now uh but is it an indicator that Nevada voters are listening to you uh and listening to the Democratic side of this argument and is it a are are your polling numbers a good indicator for the Harris campaign in Nevada well I can tell you I am rated one of the most bipartisan effective and independent Senators so people are listening but make no mistake Nevada is a battleborn state and we are Battleground races are always tight races are always tough and if you recall in 2022 kathern Cortez masto won by the slimmest of margin to deliver the Senate majority and so we may have those polls now we're not going to pay attention to him because Sam Brown Mitch McConnell has me as a Target and Sam Brown and all of his Rich billionaire friends from Texas are pouring money into the Nevada race targeting me in order to bring me down so Sam Brown who moved here just from Texas to run to off to run for office so he can take this senate seat Sam Brown is a threat to everything we believe here in Nevada he puts Maga first and Nevada last and if anyone wants to chip in and help us they can go to Rosen for nevada.com the energy on the ground uh is exciting it's enthusiastic and you want to come and help pitch in we're glad to have you uh Senator the the uh ballot there's a ballot measure on uh abortion rights in Nevada in November uh apparently something that close to codifying Row versus Wade through that method in Nevada uh what what is your sense of how that will affect uh voters decisions on who they're voting for to support that ballot measure well Nevada is an overwhelming ly pro-choice State and what we don't want here in Nevada is to take away women's Freedom women's autonomy no one in Nevada wants women to die in emergency room parking lots while politicians make the decisions on what's right for us so we do have it as a ballot question we hope it'll turn out the vote and what people in Nevada believe is that women are smart enough to make their own decisions in the privacy of their doctor's office and that would women show up to an eer mergency room for care they deserve to be treated with dignity and humanity and not have to beg for their life or even lose their life or fertility because of some politician Sam Brown he ran a an organization that was so anti-choice he said it was not negotiable for him no rape incest life of the mother this is when he was in Texas he's just trying to cover it up to win this Senate race we're going to hold him to his word and we're going to vote to to codify ro v Wade in the Nevada constitution and we're going to send Sam Brown back to Texas Nevada senator Jackie Rosen running for reelection thank you very much for joining our discussion tonight thank you for having me thank you and coming up the early Foundation of a kamla Harris presidency was built by the movement in the 1960s and the 1970s the award-winning author Clara Bingham has chronicled the movement in her brilliant new book titled the movement Clara Bingham will join us [Music] next on behalf of the people on behalf of every American regard regardless of party race gender or the language your grandmother speaks on behalf of my mother and everyone who has ever set out on their own unlikely Journey on behalf of Americans like the people I grew up with people who work hard chase their dreams and look out for one another on behalf of everyone whose story could only be written in the greatest nation on Earth I accept your nomination to be president of the United States of America a little girl on the convention floor look up at a Presidential nominee in the 1960s could not see any hope of ever standing up there herself our next guest claraa Clara Bingham writes in 1963 a 20-year-old woman could not expect to run a marathon or play Varsity Sports in college she could only dream of becoming a doctor scientist news reporter lawyer labor leader Factory Foreman college professor or elected official she couldn't get a prescription for birth control have a legal abortion come out as a lesbian or prosecute her rapist she could not get a credit card let alone a mortgage without the imparter of her husband or father that is the opening paragraph of Clara bingham's new book The Movement how women's Liberation transformed America 196 3 to 1973 and joining us now is Clara Bingham author of This brilliant new book The Movement uh CLA I want to begin with the question of why this is titled the movement instead of the women's movement or the women's Liberation movement well um because there were so many different parts of the movement that I didn't want to just I wanted to show that it was so big and involved athletes and artists and healthc Care Advocates as well as politicians and women's liers as they were called um so it was such a big movement and that's why I just thought the movement was the right title yeah and and when you look at the uh all of the anti-war demonstrations especially in the late 1960s the the the phrase there was the movement because in the speaking lineup would be the women's Liberation movement speakers uh there would be uh environmental movement speakers even beginning at that time and and the movement just covered everything every one of these pushes toward a new Enlightenment in in this area uh what did you find this book you let the the liberators speak it's not you telling us about Shirley Chism it's Shirley Chism telling us about Shirley Chism it's noral history and so and which I thought was really appropriate for this period of time in this movement which was which had the famous phrase the personal is political and therefore it makes more sense I think and it's easier to understand the power of what went on if you hear it from the people who are in the room on the sidewalks protesting whose lives were being transformed by all the changes that were going on between this 10-year period And so there's kind of visceral about in oral history because it's more emotional and you feel that you're there so I'm only you know in footnotes and introductions yeah you're you're guiding us the the the New York Times in their Rave review uh say that this is uh historically astute and then they call it a rolicking good time and I don't think in the current imagery of the movement uh in those days good time is not the first image that comes to people's minds I know I love that line because I wanted it to actually be a fun read and also for people to understand that these women actually had a great sense of humor and they had fun together and there was this euphoric feeling of Sisterhood and one example of the fun they had was that their first protest which was in Atlantic City in 1968 at the Miss Miss America Pageant um all of the women who used to be part of the an War movement and who were radicals and were part of the yippies Rob and Morgan being the main one had hilarious stunts that they had a lamb they had very funny posters and of course the famous trash can where they threw their girdles and bras into and did not burn them by the way but that was just they did stunts all the time they dressed up as witches they glued the doors shut at at Wall Street um and and were kind and and they let mice out at a um at a wedding pageant um inan a in a wedding dress um ceremony just to freak everybody out because they thought weddings were so capitalist you know having written an entire book myself about 1968 I can't tell you how jealous I was when I discovered the Miss America Pageant of 1968 which I completely ignored uh in in my study of the presidential campaign of 1968 uh there's just there's so much in that one year alone but ALS so your frame of 1963 to 1973 in telling this story why that why is that the time frame I wanted to pick one decade where you could really see a massive change from beginning to end and 63 was the year the Betty freedan book The Feminine Mystique came out which was a huge galvanizing moment for so many women especially only mostly white women it was also the time when when the Civil Rights Movement was on fire in the South and the next year the Civil Rights Act passed which had a big impact on women's Liberation later on but it we end in 73 with roie Wade with the Battle of the Sexes when Billy Jean King beats Bobby Rigs and and with the founding of the national black feminist organization and it's a it's a sort of happy ending of the book it's before the backlash really began fyis schafle is just appears in the last few pages as she begins to zero in on the erra which passed with flying colors both in both the house and the senate in 1972 so did Title 9 so so it was just the most jam-packed 10-year period yeah it's astonishing to see how the Equal Rights Amendment for women uh how popular it was then and then how it stalled uh Shirley Chisum at the what what is coming toward the end of the story you tell here uh be uh is the first person to enter black a black woman first woman to be taken seriously in a presidential uh nominating convention she says in this book when I got to the convention hall it was lit up by noise that was a wonderful moment for me to see the way all of the delegates received me at the convention because I felt that someday a black person or a female person should run for the presidency of the United States and now I'm I was a catalyst of change Shirley Schism got 152 delegate votes you point out uh at that convention amazing I mean she really is the foremother um for kamla Harris and KLA Harris actually met her when she was running in 1972 and came through Oakland and kamla's mother was a you know an active feminist and was you know very Advanced but Shirley Chism had to deal with being black and female and she was always very interesting about how important it was to take on both racism and sexism at the same time she was an early intersectionalist and she was also incredibly Brave and and had to deal with the most horrific racism and sexism when she entered Congress in 1969 um the white Southern men wouldn't sit next to her the in the cafeteria one guy would always spit into his handkerchief every time she passed him and she took on everybody with humor and Grace and was very well-dressed and feminine yet incredibly powerful and strong yeah she was just you could just feel there's the word no doesn't have any meaning to sh Chism at all the book is the movement uh the author is Clara Bingham this is really the definitive book about the movement especially the movement for women's rights in this country how we got to Row versus Wade there would be no Row versus Wade were it not for those previous 10 years leading up to it clar Bingham thank you very much for writing this book for joining us tonight thanks for having me Lawrence thank you we'll be right back that is tonight's last word