#3 Jack Stern Joins Us For a Colin Rea Special (Plus an Offseason Preview and Pat Murphy Discussion)

welcome back to the Kem City Club podcast I am Spencer back again with Gunner amalon and today we are being joined by our special guest Jack stern of Brew Crew ball Jack how are you doing today I'm doing fantastic Spencer how are you oh I am doing very well it appears that the Bucks are off to a better start today so that that's making me happy at the moment but uh yeah we're uh we're we're happy to have you gunar how are you doing today we're doing great happy to have Jack I'm the expert I'm not the expert so now Jack is we call in the big guns for this episode bringing in the professional this time yes very professional we I I wanted the chance to ask how gunar was doing but you guys didn't give me that chance I only got to hear how Spencer was doing so well I have that's all anyone cares about I'm used to it yeah I just don't want Gunner's feelings to be heard I was gonna ask how you were doing but Spencer kind of just kept motoring right along so yeah I mean do we really care how Spencer's doing too like no one actually cares about that no no no I know I know it's all pity I get it um just the host just the host just the host it's a tough life it is so for our listeners just a reminder that if you haven't subscribed yet please take a moment to do that on whatever platform you're listening on and if you feel inclined to rate US five stars that would be great it will really help us as we move forward with the Pod so today is kind of meant to be an offseason preview of sorts but before we get into that fully I think we have to cover the big recent news with the Brewers which is obviously we talked about Council leaving for Chicago last week just today they officially named Pat Murphy the new manager of the Brewers and they also named Ricky weeks the associate head coach no longer the bench coach role he's the associate head coach so Jack what are your thoughts on that I'm glad that they stayed internal for replacing Council I wanted them to stay internal for replacing Council that's what they've done in the past when they've lost guys just trying to keep continuity within the organization but I guess I'm not convinced they picked the right internal candidate I understand why they went for Murphy he was right underneath Council he's got that familiarity with the players it seems I'm just not sold that he's going to really have the right managerial style for this team for the next three years is what he's going to be under contract for whether or not he is around for the entirety of those three years is going to be a little bit different we'll have to wait and see but I think that they had some good internal candidates and I can see why Pat Murphy was in the mix and I could see why he got it I guess I'm just not convinced that this was the right hire I think they had some other guys who they could have gone with I think there is an element of maybe you think that Murphy's kind of I don't want to say like a stop Gap because that makes it sound like he doesn't have any value to the organization out outside of just kind of kicking the can down the road but I think that he's probably not going to be like the long-term guy and I kind of would have rather just seen them rip that Band-Aid off right away and if you're going to promote someone who is with the organization already just do it right away and and see how things play out um I think just the combination of that and again just the style concern I'm not sure it was the right guy to go for here yeah yeah I I kind of had a similar train of thought on this I know we've talked about it a little bit before but I was hoping they would go and it's not that I'm against having an older manager but with I think the new sort of era that the Brewers might be entering soon I was kind of hoping they'd you hire a younger manager that could grow with the group that they have coming up and Pat Murphy is I believe the going to be the fifth oldest manager in baseball now and not only that but he's he's actually had some heart issues and stuff too which not to make light of that but it is another thing you kind of have to worry about with him going forward so I was I was surpris originally I didn't think there was any chance Murphy was actually going to be the one they hired I thought it was kind of lip service that they were giving him a shot because he had been in the organization they obviously respected him but it felt more like yeah we're going to give Pat a look also and then kind of started looking more and more the last few days like it was going to be him before I believe it was Monday that Rosenthal reported that it was it was in fact going to be Murphy it may have been Tuesday but Jack Murphy not not related to Pat Murphy was asking um in your opinion does the move mean that one by staying in interal are they showing that they love love their coaching staff and they like the direction they're currently headed as a team in an organization or two they're kind of unsure about the current direction or they weren't sure who they wanted to hire necessarily and they're using Pat Murphy as a stop Gap I know you kind of touched on we don't want to use the terminology stop Gap but do you think he's being used as more of like a train the next type of guy which perhaps it's Ricky weeks yeah I think he is but I think that's part of the first option about loving the staff that they have and knowing what their direction is I think that they do have that long-term guy identified and it really does seem like it is Ricky weeks um but they probably just don't feel that he's ready yet and again that's a debate you can have about you know do you give him some time in the Dugout to try to prepare him or do you just kind of make that transition right away and take the route that you alluded to you just put him in the Dugout right away as a manager and he gets a chance to grow with the rest of the team and build those relationships that way and you see what you have there but it seems like the route that they wanted to take was they like what they have I think that the Brewers even after Council left and I know that there are a lot of question marks this offseason which we'll get into a little later I think that they as an organization are actually still pretty confident in what they have in the direction that they're going I think that and again we can talk about this later but I think the Brewers are happy with how their future looks it's probably not exactly what they were hoping now that council's gone but they're still a lot to like here so I don't think this is a situation where they don't know where they're going and it was just kind of you know you're looking around you're like well that's promote the veteran guy and hope that he gives us a little bit of stability while we kind of figure things out no I think they know where they're going and I think part of that organizational plan that they have is we know what the long-term future looks like we just don't know quite yet if all of those pieces who are going to be big pieces long term are ready right right now if that makes sense so then you kind of try to keep Murphy around as you know kind of that that veteran guy the guy who's been around a while just try to provide that stability in the meantime so I think that's more what they're going for here and if you are in a situation where say Ricky weeks is the guy and he's who you're thinking of longterm as more of like the official long-term successor to the Craig Council era I think that there was a little bit of again if you don't think he's ready yet you do want him to have a mentor on the leadership side if you're going to try to ease him into this and the more I kind of thought about this is it might have just boiled down to the Brewers choices were if you want Pat Murphy around in any capacity moving forward it's got to be as the manager because if you don't give him that job he's going to go join Craig Council in Chicago as his bench coach or associate manager whatever you wanna call that role now so it may have just come down to the Brewers decided we do think Murphy is still a valuable part of this organization and the only way to keep him around is if he is the manager and we think that that's a worthwhile route to take because say again you know you kind of talked Spencer about some of the concerns just with having an older guy um in that role and that's not necessarily a knock on Pat Murphy that's just more of a a situation of organizational fit and just kind of where everyone's that at this point in time but again if having Pat Murphy around is allows you to keep your Chris hooks your Walker mckinven just different parts of that coaching staff it might very well be worth it yeah I agree with what you said I think for me it's a little bit of a mix of both when we're looking at like I think we view our organization very highly so obviously we just talked about the word stop Gap I don't think that's what it is I think we like our organization and we think that Pat can be the the guy to like you said for Ricky weeks you can be the guy to kind of lead him into that role without necessarily losing much because you're not trying to kick the can down the road three years and say you know what screw these next three years we're not going to win so we'll just get Ricky weeks ready for then we obviously still like we probably can compete which we'll talk about later obviously but I just think it's a it's a it's a kind of healthy mix of both I got a question for both of you kind of off of this since Pat Murphy now is the guy what type of Coach do you think he's going to be so we've obviously seen a small sample of him in like the major league coaching role which is a while ago not super long ago but recent enough to where you could have a little bit of a concern we've seen him in college ranks um we are familiar with his old style of how to coach which can probably cause some red flags for people um and which I want you guys to touch on but I think for my quick opinion is I think it's hard to sit on the bench and watch success for six to eight years and be like I'm G to change it up now and this is going to be the way I'm going to do things and like I don't think he's gonna take that route of like this is my team now and I'm gonna flip everything that we've seen for the last years with Craig and do it his own way and I think that's just maybe that's me coping a little bit where I don't want it to be like this big over H type of situation but I guess yeah for both you guys opinions what do you think he's going to look like how do you think he's going to manage and yeah I think that's a big part of it for me when I talk about you know kind of the style concerns and that's kind of the way I I view it some of the stuff that you talked about Gunner with what we know in the past about Murphy and what really just makes this whole thing interesting is it has been you know a long time for him since he was really officially a head guy in charge he had the interim stint with the Padre's in 2015 before that coached in college but we really don't seem to have a clear idea of who exactly he is as a manager at this point um you know going back to when he was a college coach he was known pretty widely as very old school tough like he's going to get on you he's going to yell at his players and that's I'm not going to say that's a bad thing because everyone has a different style of leadership that they respond to so and we did hear a lot of testimonials from from former big Leaguers who played under Pat Murphy in college that they liked that and they felt that that really shaped them in a positive way so my concern is if he is still like that and he has those Tendencies and if that would be part of how he managed today would that jive with what we have here in Milwaukee with the team that the birds have in front of them and what worries me there is just because it's a start contrast as to the way that we heard of council's management system it it seemed to be much more kind of laidback maybe laidback as the wrong word because that makes it sound like he let anything fly more like levelheaded the thing with Council that people always praised him for was you really could never tell in the clubhouse what was going on in terms of like were we on a winning streak were we on a losing streak were you personally struggling at the plate were you on a hot streak right now just the way he interacted with individuals and the way he interacted with the team as a whole it was just very very even keeled in in a good way and that was really something that helped create a positive environment in that Clubhouse and like you said gunar I'm inclined to think that if Murphy saw that up close for you know 8 Seasons or however long it was that he would take some of that into consideration and I've been kind of looking around to see if we can you know find some takes on guys as to how they think Murphy's going to be as a manager now um on foul territory earlier today Eric Katz who's one of the co-hosts of that show former Brewers catcher NL DS Legend from 2018 uh he said something along lines of from what he's heard Murphy has mellowed out in some regards and he's just kind of as a result of his experience now he has a little bit more of a holistic way of going about things now so hopefully that's what he does as a manager because I think that's what he's going to need to do if there's still going to be success on and off the field with this team whether or not that happens I guess it's going to have to be a little bit of I need to see it to believe it um a lot of the testimonials we've gotten from Brewers players that's based on how he's been as a bench coach and I do think that's a much different Dynamic than being a manager as the bench coach it really seemed like he let that dry sense of humor out a lot you know he was still no nonsense in some regards like he wouldn't tolerate you know bad behavior guys just slacking off but when you are the bench coach it is a different Dynamic now that he's a manager again ultimately he's responsible for the players more so than he was even as the bench coach I understand that as a coaching staff you all kind of share that responsibility but the buck stops with him now so I do have that concern that he is going to maybe Trend back towards that style that he used to run things with but again we're just going to have to wait and see I'm hoping that it is a little bit more of a more well-rounded approach than what he had before I do want to give him the benefit of the doubt but again that just kind of ties back into like at that point I'd rather you just promote someone who has already been deploying that kind of mentality as a younger coach who's been around these players and has built that kind of relationship with them I just would have made that move right away but obviously they see Murphy as you know the guy who is a good way to maintain consistency and to kind of keep everything held over after you lost your manager so I could see again why they would have that that feeling but and again maybe they maybe they know internally from interviewing him that he has changed a little bit but I'm gonna need to see it to believe it yeah I don't I don't have much to add beyond that I mean that's that's basically what I was going to be talking about I think the big concern will just be that he doesn't fall into his old habits like Jack was talking about we we know that he he was very successful in college this is not he was a good college coach a very good college coach but even at the Padre's level I think there's a reason he didn't end up getting the full-time job after his interim stint and like Jack said I think the big thing is that we were kind of hoping we'd we'd stick with a younger guy we would stick with somebody who could grow with this team but he he deserves a chance he he's been given this opportunity for a Reason by the Brewers and he deserves a chance from the fan base to see what he can do and if he can combine his kind of older School tougher mentality with some of the newer school stuff that council did it could be a really good mix we've kind of seen that with a guy like Bruce Boi who started embracing analytics a little bit more recently and he's been able to keep up with the times when some people thought he might fall out of that as he was getting older so there are guys who find a really good mix hopefully Murphy's one of them that's that's really where I am right now yeah I think one more thing I just want to say about Murphy too is I don't want anyone to think we're you know writing off the experience he does have or we're saying he doesn't know what he's doing or he you know he doesn't have that baseball knowledge he's a widely respected figure across baseball I think the concern is just more does the style fit the role and the team and and all of that stuff is it going to come together is it going to mesh well like that we're not you know insulting or trying to to tear down Pat Murphy here um it's just a matter of like is it going to fit and I think that's the concern and you know just based on what we know about him so again it's just going to kind of be wait and see obviously the Brewers seem to think that in the long run just weighing off the factors that play here they think it's going to work out you know because they they decided to make this higher they decided it was worth keeping him around so we'll see what happens yeah and in a lot of ways the organization is kind of receive the they deserve the benefit of the doubt because they have made a lot of good decisions over the years and the fact that they pretty steadfastly made this decision and they decided this is the guy they want to go with I there's reason to believe in them even without everything else along with it they kind of deserve that benefit of the doubt and then we can make our decision once we've seen how he actually does so before we get into the other portion of the preview part that we talked about earlier I think we should probably touch on the transactions that have already happened during the breu offseason since we're doing this quote unquote preview a little later into the into the winter than we normally would but so the first transaction the somewhat big news that comes out is Wade Miley declining his half of the mutual option that was followed up by a Colin Ray deal for one year plus a team option about a week later Mark can gets traded to Detroit for right-handed pitching Prospect Blake holl and then earlier this week the Brewers traded Hendry Mendes and Robert Moore who were top 30ish prospects by most accounts for 26-year-old infielder Oliver Dunn whom they subsequently added to the 40 man to protect from the rule five draft so kind of starting off with Miley and Ray Jack do you think there's a chance that Miley will still pitch in Milwaukee next year year do you think he's more likely to end up somewhere else or do you think this is maybe the start of him entering retirement and he might not Pitch at all next year I think there is a chance he might not want to pitch just based on the comments we heard from him throughout the year he did hit the injured list multiple times throughout 2023 and basically admitted after he went on the injured list for um bone spurs in his elbow I think it was he said I've been pitching through this all year I've been ping with pain almost the entire year um and credit to him he went out and just gutted through it and did his job and you know gave the Brewers quality outings almost every time he took the mound but I don't think that there is this pressing need for him to pitch next year he almost retired after 2022 and one of the reasons he opted against it was because the Brewers Came Calling so I think it is a situation where it might be a coin flip between maybe he comes back or maybe he just calls it a career he really seems to like it here I'm guessing the Brewers have interest in bringing him back just in kind of a similar role as they intended for him in 2023 they didn't intend for him to throw as many innings as he did this year he was supposed to be more like your six starter SL Swingman out of the bullpen you just kind of have him around for depth Innings because you know if you throw him out there in the event of some injuries or short outings he's probably going to be good enough to keep you in the game if they do bring him back next year he probably won't be nearly as good as the bottomline results were this year because I give him credit for for he executes his pitches about as well as you could ask for a guy with his caliber of stuff but I think there is also an element of just there was still a lot that went right for him last year in terms of you know batted ball luck and things of that nature and he was putting more guys on base via the walk than he had in the past so maybe you bring him back you know kind of to try to fill that Swingman role again but I think there is a decent chance he ends up calling it a career yeah I think I guess my question would be if you're in his situation and you do want to pitch next year the Brews are a pretty good situation for him considering the level of Defense he's going to have behind him and obviously familiarity and everything else but he's gonna have Elite defense behind him if he does want to come back and that's a big reason he had those surface results that were better than what you would expect based on bat ball data and all the peripheral stuff so you think he's probably gotta weigh that if he's going to be coming back at all right I think if he does decide he wants to pitch next year it might be a situation where the way that he values himself on the open market is not quite the way that other teams see him so it might be a situation where you know he wants to be on the open market and see what the best offers that he can get potentially from another team or from the Brewers but if he does want to pitch next year I wouldn't be surprised if he stays on the open market for quite a while because you know he might be marketing himself as a guy who really is closer to what that erra might say and just about every front office in baseball except for maybe the Rockies is gonna say no you're more like a number four number five maybe who is probably not going to give us a ton of innings next year and at that point maybe he does kind of take a look around and say no my best situation is to go back to Milwaukee and then maybe we see him sign you know closer to spring training or something at another one-year deal so moving on to Colin Ray then why did the Brewers make Colin Ray bringing back Colin Ray such a priority because it's very hard to find starting pitching on the open market and the Brewers needed a guy who could fill that back end of the rotation SL Swingman man type role and Colin Ray is a guy who can do it at a much cheaper rate than some of the other guys on the free agent market and he's already got the familiarity here he wanted to come back so just made a lot of sense for all parties the Brewers are going to need some in Innings next year Brandon woodruff's going to miss presumably the whole season after shoulder surgery we don't know if Corbin Burns will be here come opening day so just those concerns there and basically if you don't resign Cen Ray then you're probably looking at paying 10 million for someone like Kyle Gibson and I would rather have Colin Ray over Kyle Gibson so it was just made sense for all parties Jordan ly yeah that's a good example though like guys who eat up Innings at the back of the rotation the going rate for those guys is actually pretty high so to be able to bring back col and Ray for I think it it's like what five million guaranteed when you put the buyout in there too for the club option yeah so to be able to bring him back for basic basically half the price of the free agents out there who probably would have given you comparable production moving forward you know it's just a really good move and Colin Ray is not a good pitcher but you kind of know what you have with them Colin Ray is one of my favorite guys to watch just because he gets out outs at a competent rate by not being good at anything but he's basically close enough too good at everything he's just unremarkable in all the right ways to be a serviceable Innings eater at the back of the rotation I always like you know going to his his scouting page on Brooks baseball and for all of his pitches it just says this pitch possesses few remarkable qualities like it's just a there's nothing in the Arsenal that stands out but he throws five or six different pitches and he just he uses those pitches to attack every single part of the strike zone so high four seamer you know sinkers down and in Cutters away he'll go again like down with the breaking stuff he's got the sweeper and the the curveball he makes a splitter into lefties like he'll just throw the kitchen sink at you and none of it's great stuff but it's all slightly below average stuff and he locates it well enough and he mixes it well enough it's just you need guys at the back of the rotation who can eat Innings and keep you in games and I think those are guys who don't get enough love Colin Ray is one of those guys who does that quite well I think people have always very heavily undervalued how many pitchers you need to get through a 162 Game season Council always said like we're going to need seven to eight starters throughout a year potentially to get through a year and people always have jokes of like oh Colin Ray this guy's like we're not moving the needle like that's if you can get that type of pitcher in like that six to eight range of like he's not like G to be in your top five most likely but you're gonna need him so like he's a very valuable pitcher in that sense you just need a bunch of guys like that like you said for cheap there's like I don't see there's no harm no follow there like this is a guy who actually can pitch keep you into games that's kind of what Wade Miley was probably going to be a little bit higher value of that that's probably what you're were touching on before so the more guys you can get like that at a cheap rate who can keep you in games no it's not going to be flashy like the wood rfts or Burns um but you just need a lot of those guys to get you through a year so I just don't see how you can really be upset at a move like that it's just to me it's just something that you need yeah it's and for talking about a team that you know has World Series aspirations I know people are going to say like you said Colin Ray does not moved the needle to win a World Series well to win a World Series you got to get into the playoffs first and once you're in the playoffs Colin Ray is probably not going to help you win playoff games but Colin Ray helps you win regular season games to get into the playoffs like if you're gonna hold your own over a 162 game marathon season you need your Colin rays eating up you know maybe up to 100 Innings a year or something so just to have that guy in the back of your rotation instead of say a Jason Alexander who is legitimately like unpitched at times just a guy with that kind of profile not to knock Jason Alexander but that is kind of what it all ties back to like if you're gonna get through a season you got to be able to have guys you can go to who can keep you in games when the rest of your pitching staff is maybe hurting or you're a little bit stretched on depth just having a guy who you can say hey go out there give us five innings three earned runs give us the Colin Ray special five innings three earned runs that's what he did in most of his outings and if he keeps doing that moving forward there's a lot of value in that more than people recognize yeah I know nobody here would make fun of Jason Alexander and the Pod you have to be careful making fun of Jason Alexander he will reply to you on Twitter and his friends will join so you have to be careful with that just they're they're they're just having fun with you Spencer it's not personal so I know good guy I'm not I made a joke they got mad at me in a fun way it's fine we're moving on let's move on to the mark Cana trade and talk about that just quickly here so like I mentioned they traded him to Detroit they decided to do that rather than pick up or decline his team option by doing so instead of my assumption is they were going to decline the option if they didn't find a trade or they were going to pick it up and then look to trade them afterwards so that saved them two million by not declining the option they got a somewhat interesting relief Prospect in Blake holl Jack you got anything that stood out to you from holl's repertoire or his profile at all so depending on which Scouting Report you look at some of them will say his fast ball is close closer to a cutter like a hard cutter like he sits in in the mid90s but other scouting reports will say that it's got good Spin and good ride through the zone so that almost kind of reminds me of maybe that pitch has both qualities I haven't watched a ton of video on him but I've seen like The Cutting action but it does kind of make me wonder if this is almost like a harder throwing Brent Suitor type profile in that regard because he kind of had the same thing where his fast ball it had a little bit of ride through the Zone because of the angle that it came into the hitter and because of where he located it at the top of the zone and it had cutting action too so it was almost kind of like a riding cutter that he threw except he threw it in the mid to Upper 80s and holl sits in the mid 90s with it so it's a very interesting profile and I think it is a profile that could be making an impact in the big leagues as soon as 2024 for the Brewers I think this is a a guy who again and he's going to have options in 2024 because he'll be making his big league debut if he does come up this year so having the ability to kind of have an interesting profile like that as sort of your back and forth guy it's just kind of a continuation of what we've seen with guys like Elvis pagero Trevor McGill you bring in these guys who maybe don't necessarily have a whole lot of pull in terms of names but the stuff is really good and you can kind of have that flexibility to you know shuttle them up and down and then if something clicks all of a sudden by the end of the year you know they're playing big roles in your Bullpen and I think hollow's just kind of the latest continuation of that and it's a good get for the Brewers considering Cana was never going to be on the 2024 team like what you talked about Spencer if if they couldn't have found a trade partner for him before that option decision I think they probably still would have picked it up and just moved him later but again there was there was no way he was was going to be a brewer in 2024 and that was something that when I was on the lockdown Brewers podcast they asked me what potential move might be made that might come as a surprise to some fans and I said Mark can is not going to be on the 2024 team they're probably going to trade him just because I think that you got the most out of him that you were ever going to get during his time as a brewer he's probably G to take a step back next year just based on the fact that the power and the quality of contact are slipping the plate discipline is still really good so I think he'll be close to average offensively in Detroit but he just the raw hitting ability just isn't that great anymore I know it seemed that way for when he was in Milwaukee but he did have a little bit of good fortune and he really just got hot for a few weeks which is exactly what you hope for if you're bringing in a guy like that at the deadline I think the Brewers played the can of situation perfectly you bring him in at the deadline for a guy and Justin Jarvis who really doesn't have a spot in the organization you keep him for the rest of the year Cana he gets hot and then you get out and get something back for him that could give you long-term value yeah I agree he uh he's also a hit by pitch machine which I respect a lot but I'm gonna miss I'm gonna miss being able to point at my TV screen and yell he did the thing yes whenever can of gets hit by a pitch yes I got so excited about that when I was at the game and he got hit we were down by four runs at the time and I I yelled it and no one understood what I was talking about but I was happy so that's all that mattered um moving on to the other trade the Brewers made so far this offseason just happened the other day they moved outfielder Hendry Mendes who just turned 20 last week or a week or two ago and second round pick from the 2022 draft Robert Moore for a 26-year-old Oliver Dunn who was actually drafted in the minor league portion of the rule five draft last year so they picked him up and he's eligible for the rule five draft this year so they had to add him to the 40 man on the surface I think a lot of people probably thought this was a major overpay given where Mendes and Moore are ranked I think if you look a little further into it it makes a lot more sense but Jack what what do you see with this trade it was really about the trajectory of each player in the trade and where they all fit within the organizations that they were in so I know that Mendes and more were thought of pretty highly they were both within the Brewers top 30 prospects so they were at least by the fan base and by some evaluators that earlier in the year they were thought of pretty highly but they both played with the Timber Rattlers this year did not do very well at all with the Timber Rattlers offensively and these are guys who Mendes is an outfielder more as a middle infielder playing positions where they were not close to the big leagues they were blocked by some other guys in the organization their trajectory was not looking great so their future within the Brewers organization was you know not looking especially bright and that's not necessarily a knock on them as players that's just a knock on the seasons that they had in relation to where the organization's at and then on the flip side a guy like Dunn is on a little bit more of an upward trajectory after he tore up double a pitching this year and then really swung the bat well in the Arizona fall league but he didn't have a with the Phillies this was not a roster that he was going to be able to make to protect him from the rule five draft they weren't going to be able to add him to the 40-man roster so from the Brewers perspective you're getting a guy who probably joins the competition at second base with Bryce terang because um done is another left-handed hitter and he's got something that terang doesn't in that he hits for quite a bit of power which is something the Brewers are lacking in general so they get a guy who could come into the mix right now and the Phillies get a couple players who are still talented players I know they they didn't have good seasons and you know they haven't figured it out yet but they are good players and they're now in an organization that can buy them more time to figure things out so it just makes sense for all parties aged Gunner as our resident swing breakdown Master what did you see in Oliver dun when you looked at some of the video do you like what you see is he somebody you think could help the major league club this year yeah similar to what Jack said I think he's just a guy who's going to be on The Fringe who can compete for a spot potentially I kind of view that as sort of the Owen Miller type of role where I like him more than Owen Miller I think he's got a higher like profile to actually be productive as a hitter um just a swing I mean I'm not GNA break it down bit by bit but I just think it's a very simple swing and um very easy it looks like to him and he's got obviously great great numbers it's always funny looking at these types of guys who are older and the minors and they have like these good numbers because it's like well what like what the heck why is he not up in the majors already he's playing great um so there's always like a little bit of like a stop like why is that the case so um but like I said it's interesting at the very least um as I just said I like him more than like an Owen Miller and I think there's a higher potential for him to actually do something productive for um not the rip Owen Miller uh Wisconsin native I like you but uh he did have tools but hitting wise this is obviously a lot uh more sexier profile I I'll say uh than a guy like that so I'll take a chance and like touch on like Robert Moore and stuff quickly like I think the Brewers has like produced those guys a lot too like I just think that's the type of guy we get like all the time so I'm not like that upset that we're losing guys like that when we is kind of breed those types of guys here in the organization so um yeah yeah I I think when it what it comes down to with dun is going to be strikeouts the strikeout rate is a little higher than you would probably want I did notice that swinging strike rate really isn't terrible which is interesting I think he might be a little too passive at times more than anything else that usually is what that points to um he walked at like a 16% rate in dou a which is very good but if you're trying to find that balance between patience and passive being too passive he might just be kind of on the verge of which way he needs to go on that I think if he can find a spot where he's maybe a little more selective in terms of attacking pitches that he can hit I know we talked about the power a little bit I know Kurt hog posted a video of him hitting a bomb that was 109 miles per hour off the bat so that's legitimate juice in the bat for sure that might not be the hardest hit ball he had all year or anything either but he found a video of that for sure he he just looks like somebody who could who could push terang and the defense isn't great from what I've seen but he does seem to have a pretty decent arm he might be able to help out at third at times just somebody who can help out in the infield and if the bat does continue to grow and he is able to cut down the strikeouts he's a guy who could be a starting second baseman with some pop and you could almost see like a like a scooter Janette type of scooter Janette type of prime where you get power from the bat and decent defense and he walks more than scooter did but somebody like that is a potential outcome I saw somebody comp him to Jason kipniss that's probably best case scenario but that would be a really good Prime for somebody at second base so I think they did pretty well there personally for those who don't know how much I nerd out about prospects I do have it down to about 140 rank 140 person ranking of the Brew farm system Mendes and Moore were both at the bottom of my 30s and falling quickly and I would say done slotting in around 20 so I think they upgraded there's more upside with a guy like Mendes who might play he still has a lot of upside he has really good bat to ball skills he's a good athlete but it's going to take a swing overhaul and it sometimes just takes a new organization to be able to figure that stuff out so I'm rooting for him I hope he does well there he like I said he just turned 20 he was 19 in high a all year so it's not something you give up lightly but I think dun with his chance to impact the major leagues this year already worthwhile trade in my opinion I just want to say that I have seen Spencer's Prospect spread Prospect spreadsheet and my initial response to it was you have too much free time I don't but I use all of it on that so it that spreadsheet had no business being that detailed and that intuitive there's been so many trades where I just go to Spencer and I'm like where is he ranked on your list right right when the trade breaks I just want to know what Spencer things immediately yeah I I spend a lot of time on it but it's not about me we're talking about the Brewers so let's move on now we're going to get into the actual preview of the off season about 40 minutes into the Pod here so there have been some differing opinions from some of the bigger baseball writers around different platforms like Ken Rosenthal of the athletic he seems to think the Brewers should sell and he also seems to think that they will be selling this offseason Jeff passon on the other hand appears to expect them to Hold Steady and he thinks they'll probably see where they're at at the deadline but for now he's not expecting them to have any wholesale changes during the off season Jack if you were Matt Arnold which direction would you go and then which way do you think they will go keep counter building that's what I would do that's what I think they will do so I wouldn't be surprised if they do trade some pieces from their big league roster I think there's a good chance Corbin Burns won't be hereby opening day Willie Adamas is probably available for the right price Devin Williams is probably available for the right price and any of those three guys could realistically be gone by the start of 2024 I don't think all three of them will be but when when or if they do trade any of those guys that's not going to be a signal that they're starting some sort of massive tear down it's just going to be a case of we got some guys back who can help us in the very near future if not right away as soon as 2024 and that's just going to help us keep an open-ended window in which we can be competitive I think where all of this speculation comes from and the disconnect that it has with how the Brewers actually operate I think some people just can't recognize that the Brewers do not think in terms of Windows the only window that they're thinking of is just open-ended competitive window like that's the whole idea here that's why they make every move that they make the goal is always how do we remain competitive now and remain competitive in the future how do we avoid having to go through an actual tear down where you know we're going to be in a stretch where we're just not good for a couple years like towards the bottom of the league that's not going to happen I wouldn't be surprised if they're not quite as good in 2024 as they were this year but I think it's going to be a similar approach to what we've seen for quite a few years running now where it's just if you have the opportunity to trade from your big league roster for guys who can help in 2024 2025 and Beyond you do it because that just helps you remain competitive and it's always a tough Balancing Act and maybe not every move they make is going to properly strike that balance as well as they'd like but that's always what they're trying to do and I think that's what they're going to try to do again this winter so again I'm expecting Burns to be traded that's really the only big one that I'm expecting we already saw Cana get dealt that's really a counter building move as well you trade away a guy who his value has peaked and you get back admittedly just a reliever so this guy could you know Hollow may not end up being a huge piece for him but you're bringing in a guy who has a potential to contribute for the foreseeable future so we're already just really seeing a continuation of that and anyone who's reporting that the Brewers are going to go into a tear down or go into Cell mode I just don't believe it I don't believe it at all I'd be surprised if that happens because it would go against all of their messaging which has been very very consistent I know there's been a lot of lot of crazy stuff going on seemingly with this franchise but the one thing that has remained consistent has been their messaging for how they view their chances of winning a World Series and that is get into the playoffs every year if we can try to get into the playoffs every year and then hope that you get hot one of those years and if they go into a tear down shortly after they continued hammer in that point of wanting to make it to the playoffs every year they would be reneging on that messaging that has been consistent for multiple years the messaging that they've used to justify you know trading a Josh hater for example and I think it is the right approach and I think they're going to stick with it yeah I I agree with you on that for sure I know everybody's favorite phrase bites at the Apple has been thrown out quite a few times and I get why people don't love the phrasing of that but I agree with you jack I think in a in a market like Milwaukee getting his many shots at making that run in the playoffs is absolutely the way you have to go we've seen them go all in in 2011 it it worked really well and they still didn't win and then after that it took seven years to get back to the playoffs and we saw a lot of the people that were traded in that move end up in Kansas City as a big part of the core of a team that did win a World Series in a small Market it's it's never going to be perfect like you said we can use the same phrasing for the way they value or the way they go about making trades in terms of taking bites at the Apple getting a guy like Blake holb is a bite at the Apple for a potential reliever they're trying to get somebody that might help and they get a bunch of guys like that two of them hit and all of a sudden you've got two major league relievers that are helping you they're not all going to hit but the more opportunities you give yourself to get guys like that the more chances the more likely you are to have a pen that looks a lot like what the Brewers have had over the years which is top to bottom for the most part guys that you can trust to go in and get out this year was a little bit of a difference from that they figured it out towards the end when someone like Trevor McGill really came on and they found the right mix a little bit better but that's what they're aiming to do with everything they every move they make is to take a chance at improving the roster and it's not going to work and just throwing money at stuff isn't going to make that happen either you have to have a balance of scouting finding guys with traits that you think you can improve and just taking it to the next level and hopefully you get players that'll help you I think the Brewers have been fantastic at that over the years and that's the reason they continue to be in this competitive window that they don't want to close to open a new one it's all a continuous window like you were talking about I think just quickly too let me I'll say it quick uh okay uh we just witnessed firsthand an 84 win Arizona Diamondbacks team go to the World Series and beat us it's just so important just to sneak into the playoffs because you just literally never know what's going to happen so I think that's literally what the Brewers are trying to do how many times can we get that opportunity and chance just to make it to the playoffs cuz you never know what's going to happen yeah yeah Jack any other thoughts on that or yeah I mean it's you're right gunar I think that you know anything can happen we've seen that happen over the last few years and not just with teams like like Arizona you look at like the Nationals as well in 2019 teams that look at whoever the played yeah Braves we were a favorite in the Braves series too teams that were by no means the favorite to get that far and they got that far because they got in and they got hot and then again you can have a further debate about well these were how these rosters were constructed and that's why they got that far but a lot of it really just comes down to you got hot at the right time every baseball team gets hot for a stretch the 2023 Oakland A's got hot for a stretch like it happens to every team and you just hope that it gets timed out right and it's the right approach that's that's if the Brewers are going to win a World Series that's going to be the way it is and I think that if you recognize that and you understand that that's their approach I actually do think in in some ways it does make it a little bit easier to process some of the playoff failures that the Brewers have had because if you recognize what they're trying to do it's not the end of a window like people talk about we didn't win anything when console was here we didn't win anything when Brandon Woodruff was on the top of his game when he was healthy we didn't win anything when we had Josh ha we didn't win anything when Christian Yelich was the best player in the National League yeah it sucks I would have liked to see those exact guys you know charging the M basically to celebrate a world series title at American Family field but like that wasn't our last chance to do it like just because those guys didn't do it does not mean that we no longer have a chance to do it and if you just look at the rosters of these Brewers teams that were making the playoffs every year just go and look at them from year to year and look at how different they were from year to year there has been a lot of turnover throughout this stretch and I get it you've had some constant especially you know in that starting rotation but even then look at how the 2018 team came within one game of a pennet and then look at how the 2021 team and the 2023 teams ran away with the NL Central those were all three of those teams were vastly different in the way that they were constructed in the way that they won games the guys who were contrib ruting the most like it really speaks to just how good this front office is on the baseball operations side of things I think the biggest shortcoming really has been and Spencer you kind of touched on this they didn't do a very good job with the messaging like bites of the Apple fell flat people did not want to hear that it was not well received and that could kind of tie into a larger point with how I view the Brews right now I think they're exceptionally good at baseball operations and I think they're exceptionally terrible at public relations so but they're doing things the right way and I think they're going to keep doing it that way yeah and you kind of touched on something that I've always kind of wanted to point out but for people like Jack and myself when we're on Twitter tweeting about how like we agree with this bites of the Apple approach we agree with not going all in that is not because I I get it I see it a lot people are like well you just don't care that much about winning a World Series like believe me if the Brewers win the World Series that will be the best day of my life I want that more than anything right now but I also have you have to understand what our Market is what the best chance is and the best Chan is to get lucky the Bucks got lucky when they won their finals like you get lucky to win a everyone who wins a World Series or wins the NBA final you had luck and a lot of it and you had health and you had a lot of things go right in order to win something and and just throwing money at players that you know doesn't guarantee you anything look at the Mets look at the Padre's look at the Yankees look at and then just to point out the randomness look at the Braves in the playoffs they destroyed the the regular season this year they didn't even sniff the World Series really they didn't have a shot they made it they didn't make it out of the nlds and that's just baseball and I know people hate when christien Yelich says that's just baseball but it is it really honestly truly is how baseball goes and it sucks and it's also awesome and that's just kind of how the sport is and and to go back with to to yell it's using that phrase It's baseball if you approach it any other way this sport will eat you alive yes as a player sport is ruthless and for people who have a problem with him saying it's baseball maybe it sounds to some like he's shrugging it off that's just the kind of mentality you have to have because if you get to tied up to results in a small sample in a game that has a 162 game regular season and a game in which everyone has hot streaks everyone has cold streaks that's just how you got to think about it otherwise it's so easy to get in your own head and things snowball and things just get worse and the Brewers I believe have done a very very good job of instilling that throughout the organization just that understanding of it's baseball this is the way it works and they understand that and they apply that to the way that they build their rosters the way that they're trying to win a World Series I understand it's not the most exciting way or the sexiest way and I'm never going to try to convince anyone that it is because it's not no the sexiest way is you dump a ton of money into all these Superstar players and everything works out that is the most entertaining way to win a World Series the Brewers are not trying to win a World Series in the most entertaining fashion possible they're just trying to win one and they know that this is the best way to do it especially in their Market yeah and gunar you and I have talked about it before with the ellich but a lot of his struggles when he was struggling for he had a good year this year but when he was going through his rough stretch what did we keep saying that he clearly is so down on himself that he can't get himself out of this rut because of the way he phrased things so my guess and you can touch on this quick but my guess is that he talked to some people who told him like Hey you need need to take this approach that this is just the this is how baseball works and you have to be able to flush stuff and let go of it and we saw it it it that approach seemed to have helped him he started talking that way more recently suddenly he starts looking a lot better so as a player who we both had struggles as players and we know how hard it is at times what how important do you think that is oh it's I mean o just about to that is we both had our struggles too right and it's once you almost I can't it's hard to even describe I think once you obviously play you know it but it's almost like when you let that emotion just hit you go like bring you down to zero when you're like your Tank's just empty like I got no confidence nothing's working um it's just that's when you know it's just the end game like all right we're done and then we saw this year which we had a little bit more hope for the season what like you touched on is all of a sudden his boing started to change a little bit he was just accepting this like not like failure but he was just like you know what I'm going to give it my best shot and it we'll see what happens and we've seen it's always funny with Yelich his hitting profile and like his he's always up there for exit velocity he's always up there for you know his hit tools always been very good even in his down years it's just he's kind of gets really unlucky and he gets like in these unlucky phases when you're that's got to be the worst place to be in as a baseball player when you're extremely unlucky you're doing everything right and then nothing's working for you and then you just cannot get out of that funk and when you also don't have the confidence with it you're just never going to get out of it so um we did see that change this year and I think just it's it's actually just a perfect like you guys said it's just a perfect way to look at baseball in general like um just give yourself the best shot and to see what happens all right it looks like we just got some breaking news actually while we were record recording the Brewers traded Abraham Toro who was arbitration eligible and expected to get around one and a half million I believe so most likely a non-tender candidate they traded him to the A's for right-handed pitcher Chad Patrick who ER doesn't look great from what we can see um it looks like he was actually traded one time this year from the Diamondbacks to the A's and it was for our old friend Jace Peterson so couple connections to the Brewers already but I did find a little Fang graphs article here from when that original trade happened Eric longenhagen who does very good work on Prospect stuff he said that Patrick is mostly sitting 92 to 94 with his fast ball he's got very good command of a mid 80 slider he doesn't have much else in the way of secondaries from the looks of it he's been a starter throughout the miners but I'd imagine as a two-pitch guy he's more likely to be a relief type of profile he struck out over nine batters per nine so decent strikeout stuff for sure and walked under four so he's got decent peripheral uh stats but did not show up in the ER it is important to keep in mind that tripa hitting environment was ridiculous this year so a lot of vas are inflated but looks like they got just another kind of what we talked about earlier another interesting arm that they like something about and they're going to take a chance on for someone they were about to non- Tender in a few days so small trade just wanted to touch on it since it just happened but let's continue now with the rest of the Pod so the Brewers appear to kind of be on a on the verge of a log Jam of a lot of similarly talented players at the MLB level they may have to make some tough decisions on which players they're willing to part with in a potential trade or which ones they might view as Untouchable given what we have already seen from I guess we'll call them the Freshman the guys who have already debuted in Mitchell Frick weamer and terang who of those four or any of the rookies that debuted I guess would you value the most and who might you be most willing to move in a trade to make room guys like Jackson Cho or Tyler black so I value freck the most out of that group he was the rookie prospect that I was the highest on entering 2023 he was really the only guy who I had expectations for and he did fall a little bit short of them offensively but all four of those guys I had some concerns about the offensive profile especially Mitchell weamer and tang and those concerns especially in the cases of weer terang pretty much cropped up when they debuted and you know neither one of those guys were were great hitters at the big league level uh but what is helpful is that they're all really good Defenders so that gives them better floors just as players even if they never quite figure it out offensively they should be able to stick on Big League rosters just because they play defense at premium positions especially after seeing that weamer is a very very good defensive center fielder and also seeing that frelick can hold his own in center field the defense was also a little bit of a question with him but he looked very good up the middle so these are all guys who are good athletes but specifically in the cases of Mitchell and weer I think there are some giant holes in their swings and there areas of the strike zone that they just cannot cover in their current forms weamer is just super ball or ball to anything soft in a way and pitchers started exploiting that almost immediately when he got to the big leagues uh just because of how many moving parts are in that swing and it did seem like he was trying to tone that down a little bit after he went back to Triple A in September so we'll see what happens there Mitchell is a guy who I just really have not had a lot of faith in at all over the past couple years and I think that's been an unpopular opinion but it also hasn't been really proven or disproven because we haven't seen him play a whole lot um but my concerns with him are The High Ground ball rate in the minor leagues and the swing and miss and I think those are just two attributes that make for a very bad combination so again really good defensive center fielder I don't think he's going to hit much um Felix's the guy who I still value the most highly because he's got really good bat control really good understanding of the strike zone he's probably never going to hit for a a lot of power and that's his biggest limiting factor but I'm thinking if you give him a little more time he can at least develop some Gap power and be a guy who hits quite a few doubles especially with the speed too that's going to help him leg out some extra base hits um and if you have a player like that who can also hold his own defensively in center field he's still the guy that I'm the highest on all right South to me yeah South to me is the safest out of the that group I like Jack said the floor I this think is the highest um Joey to me is the most kind of exciting in the fact that he has so many tools but can he ever put it together is the question we were obviously very frustrated Spencer and I and I'm sure Jack was too to see that he made that simple adjustment all the way at the end of the season when we didn't get a chance to see him adjust his swing really at all throughout the whole year um and it just seemed like he had so many opportunities throughout the year and just I don't know obviously we don't know we're not in the Dugout to find out like why people didn't adjust his swing or like why he just kept doing the same thing over and over again and nothing ever changed but I think that's why I'm just felt like I just didn't get to see Joey weamer at his best because he just never made that simple adjustment for me but it's hard to argue like the results too I mean they he had more chances than Mitchell I like Mitchell but um the concerns are still there for me too um as far as like trading I think there's like a distinct difference between in my opinion like the Jackson Cheerio and Tyler black and maybe I value Tyler black a little bit too high right now but I do like him and once his power went up too I started to like him a little bit more but if there was like a trade opportunity I think that's where the big question comes in because I don't know if I would trade those two but I would depending on who it is I might even trade Sal still um out of that group I probably if I had to pick s would be the last one but um maybe take that angle for you guys to see if that changes kind of your perspective a little bit if a trade happened to come up um where's where do you draw that line amongst even if you include Jackson Cheerio and Tyler black in that group um yeah where does that line get drawn yeah I I really wouldn't be that torn up if the Brewers traded any of Mitchel freeli weer or terang again Frick's the guy who I'd be a little bit more hesitant with out of that group but the thing that's funny to me when you talk about this Milwaukee farm system and you talk about these prospects all four of these guys who we saw this year the Brewers really really hyped them up as as the next wave here that's going to be forming a really solid core for this organization and I get why they had to do that from a PR perspective they actually did a very good job of that the Freshman series that they put out was very well produced and well received too but these four guys they're not the guys the guys are in my mind this next wave so chrio black these guys just have better profiles as players than Mitchell freck weer terang better profiles than any of those four guys in my mind ever did at any point um and that's not to say those those first four aren't talented they certainly are they're all really good athletes and I think the biggest thing is just that they all have particularly Mitchell and weamer they have low floors like offensively they have low floors um I talked about like the defense means that they should be able to carve out at least part-time roles uh but guys like chrio and Tyler black especially a guy like black I see is having a much higher floor because again the walk rate is good the plate discipline's good um Cho especially now that he cut the strikeouts down that helps his floor a lot and he's got legitimate Superstar potential that I don't think was ever quite there with these other prospects so I'm a lot more excited about this next group that's coming up and those are the guys who if I'm going to prospect hug I'm hugging those guys I'm not hugging any of Mitchell freeli weamer or terang I'd like to keep freck out of all of them um out of those four and I'd be more comfortable trading the other three but if we're talking about where to draw that line Gunner I think I'm kind of in a similar spot to you where I do draw the line at you know the chos and the blacks compared to you know the Mitchells and the weamer and the terang yeah I I would agree with that I also would say that freeli is pretty easily for me the one that I would least like to see moved but it also means that he probably has the most value if they were going to be getting trade offers for some of these guys so as we saw with estery ruiz gaining us one of our best players last year you never know how teams are going to Value some of these guys and tools can be over anything else for some organizations and the A's are definitely prone to that at times but if anybody comes knocking for Mitchell or weer and they're willing to give up legitimate solid MLB talent to do so I'm making that trade quickly tering I I am very low on tering after this year I I I'll be honest I don't know that I have hope that he could ever be a starter at the MLB level at this point I think he can be a utility guy who plays really good defense at a couple different spots but if you tell me he's going to go out there and start every game I am not feeling good about that um at any point in the future so he he's probably the one I would take almost anything that I feel even decently about in a trade for him but I agree I mean cherio to me is if you came to me with five years of Wan stto yeah I'll include Jackson cherio in a in a trade but short of that it's I'm not moving them and Black's pretty close to that because I do believe that the bat is up there with most of the best hitting prospects in baseball maybe not that top like top top tier but I put him in pretty close to that so I think he improved defensively I think he's going to be able to hold his own at the MLB level so I I would prefer not to lose him or chero well way more than the other four um kind of along those lines though we had a question from a Twitter user Patrick he asked would you view William conteras as the only true Untouchable quote unquote this offseason at at the MLB level I don't like labeling anyone as Untouchable um everyone's available for the right price but least tou realistically realistically there is no price that anyone is going to offer that would match the value of William contrar to the Brewers so in that sense sure we can call him Untouchable yeah I agree with that Gunner you got any different thoughts on that or you same page yeah same boat I mean out of everybody in the roster yeah he's the least Untouchable in that phrasing um especially just for how controllable he is too I mean Young controllable at a premium position that's hard to come by most of the time um I yeah I mean I wouldn't move him unless I'm blown away or anything like that but um yeah yeah all right so let's say we're working under the assumption here that Rowdy Tes gets non-tendered I think that's a given at this moment and say Brandon Woodruff is also non-tendered who knows where they go with that I am certain they're not just going to tender him a contract he's either getting a extension where he probably gets paid less next year and More in 2025 or he gets non-tendered completely let's say they're both non-tendered the Brewers are probably sitting right around aund million for their payroll at that point factoring in all of the projected arbitration numbers for the people that will be tendered like Willie adamus Deon Williams and Corbin Burns would you expect that to get back closer to that 125 130 million range where they've pretty much been sitting the last few years if so where would you expect that spending to go would you think they're going to go after rotation help more than anything else is it going to be maybe a more proven bat which I'm sure is what most of the listeners are hoping for or do you think they might put it into possibly going after some extensions with guys like William Contreras or even a Jackson cherio that type of thing yeah I think it's going to be going into rotation help and potentially an extension I just don't see them spending much on bats because the free agent market for hitters this winter sucks it's not good I was looking at it before we started this it's bad and there's really no one on that list who jumps out to me as yes this is a brewer or yes this is a guy who the Brewers would spend 10 million on versus just hoping an internal option or a young player takes a step forward and gives them that kind of production so I think they are still going to be in the market for another rotation arm and if you're in the market for a starter you pretty much have to assume you're going to have to pay at least 10 million uh for a starter who's even if it's just the back of the rotation guy like a guy like Kyle Gibson again he's gonna the going rate for him is probably going to be around one year 10 million so they're probably GNA sign another starter I could see them extending someone I think that contras is a candidate just as a guy who you can buy out his arbitration years maybe he's willing to tack on a couple more years of Club control right under an extension something along those lines um I don't think it's going to be like the massive extension for a Corbin Burns or willia Damas or anyone of that nature um but I think those are the two places where they're going to spend it if I had to get you sign a starter maybe extend someone and then from there acquire some offense via trade I think that's the route that they're going to take I think that's the clearest way to get to where they need to be next year okay yeah uh that actually kind of leads me into a question we got from Stephen Anderson he pointed out that currently the Brewers have five with an asterisk players projected by steamer to hit above League average one of them being Tyler black who's a rookie who we kind of our I think under the assumption he's most likely going to be up pretty early if he doesn't make the opening day roster but this is fewer than all but Washington Colorado Arizona World Series Arizona and the Kansas City Royals he was asking how do they add offense do they sign a Matt Chapman a ree Hoskins a mitch Garver or do they make a trade sounds like you're leaning towards trade do you think that maybe comes via a Corbin Burns type of trade where they add some young bats that way I think it could I think if they do trade Burns you're going to see some young bats come back maybe guys who aren't super proven at the big league level but guys who they believe have a chance to to be serviceable bats and you really got to think of all this in the context of what the alternatives are the Alternatives in the organization the alternatives on the free agent Market it's really just a lot of average-ish bats on the free agent Market and that's not really an upgrade over what we've seen the Brewers roll out for a couple years running now I think that specifically at certain positions they actually do need guys who are at least average 2023 was a year where they were just rolling out all kinds of bats who had no business being in a contending lineup and there were a couple different reasons for that some of which were out of their control just guys who didn't live up to expectations um but basically I think the object the objective again is just how do we fill out this lineup with as many capable bats as we can and I don't think the free agent Market is the most efficient way for them to do that so I don't expect them to go that way um you do have some topend guys like your Matt Chapman who part of me could maybe see the Brewers having interest because he's such a good Defender but the more I think about that he doesn't play a premium position he's a third baseman he's going to be on the wrong side of 30 for that contract and then you worry about the offense falling off and he's much closer to an okay hitter than a great one so I just don't see that happening I'd like to see Hoskins but I think that there's going to be someone who is willing to give him a little bit more than the Brewers think will be worth it for a guy who's coming off a major knee injury and I think even if they do sign Hoskins again there are some people who could kind of go into that camp of oh the Brewers are taking another gamble on a guy who's coming off an injury and we've seen how that's gone for them in the past you know with Jesse Winker and Brian Anderson and granted Hoskins has you know a much higher ceiling than a guy like Brian Anderson does but again it's and he plays a position where you're not getting any defensive value out of him the the theme for the Brewers has been if they are going to spend in free agency it's got to be on a very well-rounded guy who can provide a good amount of value throughout the life of that contract and there's just nobody on the free agent Market who does that for me so it's probably going to be through a trade to add you know a younger more controllable guy who maybe doesn't have much of a track record but because of the tools and the profile he projects as a guy who could at least be competent if you give him Big League playing time right I yeah I agree with all of that I do think Carlos Santana might have a chance I could see a one-year deal bringing a guy like him back I think they like what he brought on and off the field to the team so he's somebody I could see being brought back for a cheap maybe oneye six seven eight million dollar deal um but I agree I don't think they're going to go out and sign somebody that that the fan base is going to recognize as someone that they're very excited about um a guy like Chapman honestly he if you look at even his best years recently he has had one really really good half of the season and then a really mediocre half of the Season every time he's had a good year and both times the second half has been really mediocre and I think they're like you pointed out the peripherals kind of point to a guy who's more of that mediocre decent hitter than a guy who puts up the 900 Ops in the first half like he has a couple times I agree Hoskins is probably the guy I would most like them to go after but I do think he's going to I think even more than money I think someone's going to give him multiple years and I don't think the Brewers are going to be in that type of market for him so I agree if you do want to have a if you do want to have a plan B for Hoskins I would be okay with signing Joey Gallow I am always okay with signing Joey Gallow it's not not necessarily because I think he's GNA produce I think he's the strikeouts have just gotten so far out of hand that he's probably just not going to be all that productive moving forward but this is a team that desperately needs power that's a big reason why they got bounced in the first round of the playoffs because they didn't hit for power and gal has a lot of power you can sign him for under 10 million you bring him in see if it clicks if it doesn't you can cut bait relatively quickly so that's my thinking there but other than that I just don't see anyone who really fits yeah there's actually one other kind of similar profile to Gallow on the free agent Market uh former first round pick even people are kind of familiar with him but uh Kon Hera how do you feel about bringing him back Jack no agree I can't I can't handle the discourse anymore it's it's also just not as good of a fit because here's the thing with Gallow too Gallow is actually a respectable defensive outfielder which is also something the Brewers value he's a left-handed bat which is something the Brewers value it's just I can see why you know the swing and miss and a lot of power those are similar profiles but on the whole as players I actually wouldn't call them all that similar when you just had to give you I don't want him back either he you just had to get me going because we haven't been talking for a long enough time so far no we we do need to we gunar do you have any thoughts on that no you guys nailed it only thing I'll emphasize is just the power I just want to find power somewhere yeah um but you guys nailed it so all right we're gonna we're gonna go through a little rapid fire with some of these other Twitter questions we have so Patrick also asked us uh do you think Jansen junk will be a guy who maybe gets 50 or more innings in MLB this season I know we kind of talked about guys who need to fill out Innings and help eat Innings do you think he's somebody that might be able to give us 50 60 Innings this year I think so I was actually pretty disappointed in his 2023 season I actually thought Jansen junk was was going to be the guy who fed like the Colin Ray rle in 2023 and he just did not show anything as a starting pitcher so I think if you want to get any value out of him you got to end that experiment um the fast ball should have a lot of life on it when he's actually throwing in the mid 90s yeah it has good ride it has good spin it's basically straight as an arrow but it rides through the Zone like the perfect kind of fast ball to be hammering the upper third of the strike zone with and he went back to throwing the sweeper as his top breaking ball instead of that shorter slider that the Angels tried to get him throwing which I like that's something I was hoping they were going to do when they picked him up when the Brewers picked junk up in that trade and he went back to that and he's got that curveball too that's got decent movement it's a profile that I think can be very effective in relief he actually looked really good when he got a relief outing with the Brewers yeah the the last week of the season because he could kind of let it eat a little more and and be more in that 94 to 96 Range instead of 91 to 93 right so I think he is a guy who could break out still in a multi- ining bullpen roll so I'll take the 50 plus inning bet I think that he's kind of the Bryce Wilson role more than an actual inning eer starter okay yeah yeah all right Patrick also asked uh thoughts on Dylan oay he was the bir's third round pick a couple years ago now out of high school from Canada he's asking you think he's a potential top 100 guy I can jump in on that one quick he I like Dylan oay a lot he actually gives me a lot of cell Freel like type of Vibes at the plate super patient hitter really good bat to ball skills he's very fast probably I I would say probably 70 grade speed honestly he's a good Defender and he plays second and also Center so honestly if I were giving a comp I could see kind of a whit marfield type of comp in terms of the position he plays and also the the profile but he has negative power right now I mean I think I saw somewhere that his hardest hit ball this season was around 102 which is zero percentile exit velocity he needs to get stronger he's only 19 he's got plenty of time but I would say he's pretty unlikely to ever be top 100 he would have to go really really deep into a South Rel like type of freix is a rare breed to have very little power and make it that high into a top 100 list so he would really need to follow that that type of path but he's an interesting guy he's definitely somebody that I'll be keeping a close eye on and seeing if he does start to develop a little bit more juice in the bat but otherwise I wouldn't say ever top 100 I'd be surprised at that um he also asked which 2023 draft pick has the best 2024 Jack any thoughts on that I think Mike B is gonna find some power in 2024 and that's gonna lead to some pretty explosive results this is a guy with a really good hit tool the Brewers drafted him thinking that they could really develop that power more to match that hit tool and he actually did drive the ball a decent amount just starting out his pro career so I think that he's definitely got that in him and if he really starts developing the home run power I think that's going to be a guy who really explodes onto a lot of people's Radars yeah I definitely agree with that gunar you got anybody you really liked from that class you think's gonna have a big 2024 I'll leave the prospect talk to you guys you guys kill it all right I will say for people who were following me on Twitter around the time of the draft I was pretty low on the Brock wilin pick at the time I pointed out that it wasn't necessarily him but I didn't know that he was the best fit with the Brewers The more I've seen of him since he came to pro ball I honestly do think that they made a very good selection with wilin I think his hit tool is gon to be better than I anticipated I think he's going to be able to handle Third Base I don't know if he's going to be very good there but I think he can handle it enough to stick he has the arm for it for sure it's one of the better arms in the system for an infielder and he's a smart baseball player he I saw him a couple times in Appleton he he's a good Runner he has good instincts on the field he moves better than I expected him to laterally so I think he's gonna be pretty I could see him in the majors in 2024 honestly but Jack you did touch on one of my favorite guys from that draft I do love me some Mike boovie so kind of going on that note underrated Prospect in the system do you have one that sticks out to you as one of your favorite under the radar guys I like Craig Yoho nice nice I like the I like the makeup there I would I was ranking like my top 30 prospects during the middle of the year and I actually put him in the top 30 um he's a guy who only pitched for one season in college he had a lot of injuries but he has a deep Arsenal five pitches fast ball curveball slider change up the secondaries have really good spin he's got good command of those pitches so and he's he's an older guy as well but I just really like the up there and I don't think enough people are paying attention to him yeah no I loved I loved that pick when they made it I know some of the bigger draft nerds were all over him for some of the the metrics that he has and some of the the the way his pitch shapes are so kind of along those lines with pitchers that I really liked from this last draft my guy would be Ryan Berard I I I he was one of the guys I listed as a potential pick on that day two he is he can be upper 990s with a fast ball that has really really good life at the top of the Zone he's got a curveball and a slider that are pushing 3,000 RPMs and can both be plus at times it's probably a relief profile just because of the he does have a lot of stuff going on with the delivery and it's pretty high intent but I hope they give him a chance to start for as long as possible I do think if he can hold up that it has he has the stuff to start and if he doesn't I could see him being a quick mover that helps a major league pen pretty quickly so I really like I really like burchard I in general I loved this class I thought they did a fantastic job in this draft class all right moving on from some of our actual baseball questions we're gonna move to Johnny C who asked Jack's five most likely Brewers prospects to own a Costco membership Jack I don't need five give me one Brewer prospect that you think probably owns a Costco me membership and why M zarowski just looks like a Costco guy I like it that I I have no other explanation he just looks like a guy I would see at Costco so he's reaching stuff on the top shelves for everybody I believe it he that's a good choice um Jake schwall asked us who is each of your guys top one top one front office staff members from the Doug Melvin era I will go first Jack zenic Jack go technically Craig counil was a front office member during the Doug Melvin era so there you go Gunner you got one Scott Martins yep there's the answer he was looking for okay I I figured Gunner was gonna have that answer so that's why I didn't give it but I'm shocked you guys didn't say it so I was just smiling in the background I was purposely avoiding it but no but he is in the yes we do we do love Scott Scott is a fantastic person um Michael Barnes asked Jack this is specifically for you why did you change your Twitter at from baseball bunch of numbers to at byjack Stern uh because I'm not 14 anymore like I was when I created my Twitter handle so people change Twitter handles change time moves on you created baseball 5287 that was no it had like four digits in it it wasn't that extensive but I think he's he's just dramatizing it to make a point so Michael dramatizing never um all right I'm just gonna go through a few things here some odds and ends from the last week or so with the Brewers but on Monday the Brewers protected Jefferson Koo and Bradley block from the rural five draft by adding him to the 40 Man Koo is kind of a top he's a top 50 Prospect in baseball by pretty much everyone's account at this point somebody I've liked for a long time and I'm really happy to see getting the recognition that he is uh he was actually just awarded the Minor League Gold Glove award for the catcher position which is not like a by level thing that's only nine players in all of minor league baseball get a go glove so basically he was awarded the top defensive catcher in all of minor league baseball block was acquired from the Red Sox in the Lis Aras steel kind of a 92 to 95 fast ball you can get a little higher curveball is probably his best secondary but the slider can be flashing at times and then he added a splitter this year that some people have said looks really good at times and he's still finding the F for it but it could be another kind of above average secondary so I think he's probably somebody teams would have been interested in because he has two pitches that could already work at the major league level and that's the type of guy you could sneak through so they went ahead and protected him and then the Arizona fall league wrapped up this past weekend and the affiliate that the Brewers Farm hands were a part of took home the F leag Championship the surprise siguero uh the game was actually closed out by a brewer affiliate or a brewer Prospect Justin joerger who they got as part of the William contris and yoel pamps deal um West Clark was one for three with an RBI double in the game he also walked and got hit by a pitch and Clark and Eric Brown Jr were kind of the headliners for the fall season for the Brewers uh Brown Jr who I am very very high on still as a shortstop finished with an 852 Ops and Clark with a 102 Ops and then the recently acquired Oliver Dunn that we talked about earlier finished fourth in the entire AFL with a 171 Ops he had two homers four triples and he was 12 for2 on stolen bases so some pretty good news from the uh minor league level even in Fall we can always be nerding out over prospects everyone remember that but before we go uh Jack we just want to thank you for being on this was great do you have any articles or anything you want to talk about that's going on at Breer ball right now I can just talk about some of the general content we're pumping out right now we are ranking the top 10 most valuable Brewers from the 2023 season so that's coming out on kind of a staggered basis that's coming out I want to say every other day for the next couple weeks and after that we're going to start previewing some trade targets free agent targets just really getting the offseason discussion kicked off perfect well thanks again for being on today and for those listening at home please like or subscribe on whatever platform you are following Along on and feel free like we've said before leave us feedback we would love to know how we can get better we're working on this this is probably going to be a long one so that might be the feedback on one to shorten it up a little bit but we had a lot of stuff to talk about Jack's a good guest so we went pretty long um but thanks everyone for listening and we will see you next time