Battery Buffer EV Chargers Could Be The Answer To Slow Moving Utilities

Intro that's the sound of my battery running low but I'm only kidding my battery is fully charged as you plug in with me today for the out ofec podcast I'm your host Francy thank you for joining me I hope you're doing well today uh the other day I asked you what you were doing while you were listening a lot of you said drinking coffee which is super cool um is that still the case are you still drinking coffee today let me know how are you charging up today we're talking about a battery energy storage system also known as best uh these play a pretty crucial role in the EV industry by addressing key challenges like grid stability Peak demand management and the need for fast and reliable EV charging no matter where you are no matter what kind of resources and connections to the utilities to the grids that you have these systems store energy anytime really but a key thing is that they can store it during off peak times for utilities and then release it during PE demand they can provide buffered energy for EV charging so that you can get a fast charge even in a place where you probably wouldn't be able to bring that energy directly through a DC fast charger by adding a battery buffer which we'll talk about soon and then just ensuring that we have a supply of energy no matter where we are like I've said a couple times now today I'm going to be speaking with Michael spur who is in charge of public affairs he's a public affairs manager at ads Tech energy you might have heard of ads Tech before ads Tech energy is specifically in the US all about energy and these battery Solutions he's going to talk to me all about where does battery energy storage systems where do they fit in here where do they fit in with EV charging and why are they significant and then what products do they have I thought it was pretty interesting I think we talk about batteries a lot and we think of the system holistically we want to see solar we want to see a battery nearby we want to see micro grids with our EV charging so let's plug in for another episode of the autospec podcast and get [Music] going this episode is made possible by the support we get from Fort Collins Kia Sponsor if you are in the market for any electric Kia not only do they never add Market adjustments they will deliver your car to you anywhere in the 48 contiguous states for out ofpc viewers more information in the link in the show notes before I dive in with Michael I did want to tell you just a little a little bit of the background here so ads Company Background Tech energy is a company that focused focuses on Advanced Battery Storage Solutions particularly in the context of EV charging infrastructure and they have products that are designed to you know enhance performance and reliability of EV charging stations by integrating high performance battery storage systems to help with faster charging times and mitigating the impact of high power demands on the electrical grid we've talked about the Grid in recent podcasts had a really interesting one with Kevin Hernandez recently he works with Scott Madden he is an energy expert I had so much fun talking about utilities with him and we're trying to build out the grid as fast as possible but I did have the thought come to mind it's just like yeah we think that sounds super easy obviously it's not it takes time but also we don't just want to build it out willy-nilly right maybe there are situations where battery energy storage systems are better than ever putting in the conduit that you would need for big fast DC fast charging I don't know let me know what you think about that the global battery energy storage Market is expected to grow from $2.9 billion in 2020 to 12.1 billion by 2025 that is a crazy growth rate ads Tech energies Battery Systems deliver high power outputs they support EV charging up to 320 kilowatts I think about and this Market is going to keep growing we're going to keep seeing the technology with batteries advance and I'm sure they're going to get smaller and more efficient and cheaper as they have and and we're going to find different kind of Technologies and chemistries that work we're going to talk about that as well with Michael later let me know what you think about battery energy storage systems what you think about this conversation with Michael and generally the impact of widespread best adoption on the global energy grid and how it might change energy consumption patterns it's cool to hear how their perspective as a European company coming into the US is quite different what they've had to learn along the way but also what Lessons Learned they are bringing in from that background and then yeah the shocks or the surprises more about the US market that are quite different I think that there's huge potential for best solutions to allow for entirely off-grid EV charging Solutions in remote and underserved areas which is great and provide Power backup systems for the grid of course somewhere to capture that solar or photov volic photovoltaic any anyways energy back into a battery and then uh of course it'll be cool to see how policy and regulation starts to fit in here as well with the growth of battery energy storage systems and EV infrastructure okay let's plug in with Michael let's get on to it everyone I am now joined by Michael spur from ads Tech energy and I'm excited to talk about all things battery and what they have to offer today in the US market especially so Michael welcome to the podcast thank you so much for being here hi Francy thanks for having me I'm excited to be on your podcast and to talk about EV charging ah me too great glad we're on the same page maybe you can tell me a little bit about you uh and also your role at ads Tech energy to start off who are we talking to today sure hi I'm Michael I'm a public affairs manager at ads Tech energy uh which means I deal with um regulatory regulatory requirements for our products um new funding programs new laws new initi iives uh everything really out of sort of the political realm which um affects our products and services um I myself I've been working in the EV space for about five six years and I'm with uh adsc energy for uh two years now great that's a cool background to have with the policy and the regulation because it changes a lot a lot of these are being written for the first time as it applies to this market so it's a it's a cool probably background and knowledge set that you have and you can hopefully give me some insight into that a little bit later um and I think folks may have heard of like ads Tech before but ads Tech energy is distinct do you might mind giving me an overview of ads Tech energy and your mission in the EV industry absolutely and uh I think this will take a few minutes so I hope you you bear with me um buckled in great so um ads te energy we are headquartered in neran which is close to in Germany um and our us operations are out of Auburn Alabama adasc energy we develop and produce um battery based platform Solutions so our core competenc is really around the battery module and anything you would want to do with that in the changing energy transition so to to Wi in the picture maybe a little bit what we see happening and what we are trying to respond to with our Solutions is that on the one hand we see theg Energy System transitioning from centralized power plants to ever more decentralized um generation with Renewables solar and and wind but also on the um consumer side we see um an increasing electrification when we look obviously at Mobility the uptake of electric vehicles but also in heat generation heat pumps um I think a new topic sort of is also data centers coming uh putting pressure on on the grid buildout um so we see a lot of electrification happening but also our generation changing and what we as adsic energy see there to be Paramount is providing flexibility and one major source of flexibility for the energy industry is batteries and that's why we are in the business of battery based platform Solutions um in Germany or to say Europe probably better um we um develop and produce um battery energy storage system for commercial industrial storage um as well as um battery battery buffer DC fast charging Solutions and that's also the business with which we've come to the US um to um yeah ramp up our our business um over here as well can you tell me a little bit more about what What sparked the move into the US made as long as you know about this like what made the move into the US what sparked it because there have been country countries there have been companies coming in from Europe a lot lately because they're seeing okay the US market might be might be ready for us now or vice versa we're ready for them yeah um I think there's a number of contributing factors one as you as you highlight um I think a number of European companies uh are seeing the um potential of business in the US as well um and um I think for us we're seeing that sort of compared to Europe and where Europe is in the immobility transition the US might be trailing slightly of of one to two years um and therefore um we believe that we can bring a lot of um Lessons Learned um also from the the European market whilst obviously also understanding that there's a lot of a lot of differences uh in the US um additionally um adasc energy first started out in the charging business um with the charge boox product which was installed at Porsche car dealership locations uh worldwide and one of those markets was also the the United States and so therefore we've got um systems in in 29 States at Porsche car leadership locations and therefore did have that us experience as well and I guess sort of up from the coming from the product that we have battery based Solutions also noticed that not just in Europe um the grid might not be able to entirely uh be built out for for the charging need um demand that's required and so therefore also in the US uh battery based platform Solutions um might be a valuable addition to the overall charging mix I do see that yeah um we're working Batterybased platform solutions to get the infrastructure there but there are some spots where there are gaps where we're just like not going to have power in that area or this permit is taking a long time or whatever it is it's more remote whatever it is where it does seem like batteries might be the solution but you've touched on this a little bit um can you tell me about the key products that ads Tech energy offers and maybe even you know how they differ from others on the market as you've alluded to a little bit yeah definitely and and just um following up on on what you said beforeand as well um I think one of the the the major benefits of the transition to electric vehicles is that um today uh we have electricity available virtually everywhere however it's not available at the necessary power for say um Ultra fast charging for electric vehicles everywhere and then if you think about um says around 8 8,700 hours um in a year and the question sort of for us became um does it make sense to build out the grid uh to its maximum amount to have this power available for EV charging for every hour of the year or does it not rather make sense to have battery based Solutions which can buffer and Boost energy when it's required and thereby um alleviating the stress on the grid build out so the products which we have um as I said there they platform Solutions and um there's two charging products um which I think are most relevant to to this conversation it's um firstly the charge box system that is um consists of a battery storage unit 140 kilowatt hours of battery storage and two dispensers and it provides charging of up to 320 kilowatt hours um exactly and and the um other product is the charge post that's um currently only available in Europe but we're uh launching this um the first quarter of 2025 in the US as well and it's also battery um buffered charging solution um it has a slightly bigger storage around 200 kilowatt hours uh it's fully integrated and um provides charging up to 300 kilow and um yeah I think what's What's um important for both Solutions is that for operators or people wanting to install charging infrastructure um one they um can install these at power limited grids so grid locations which um do not have the power available for the buildout of uh a standard DC charger 300 kilow for example um and if they do have to build out the grid um which can often take a long time um and is also very costly and this differs um a lot based on different locations um they with this solution can speed up their infrastructure investment um often these Stations don't require a Transformer they never require additional switch gear to be installed um so the entire stuff that you have before the DC charger for a traditional level three installation um you can sort of leave out and uh save in the capital expenditures but also um if you look at the operation and over the lifetime of the charger um or this um the system um you save on so-called demand charges which um can be quite Hefty in in a number of locations in in the US very true yeah I just had a long What does battery buffer mean conversation the other day with a utility expert in the US and one of my questions was you know the the cost at a DC fast charger like what all goes into that and as you walk it back it's like well it's not even just the big charger it's not even the Transformer it's like all that goes behind it that is factored into the cost so seeing how it could be cost effective to skip over that to have something that fits into the grid as it is which does seem to be essential with the state of the industry right now is kind of working with what we have we would love to uh I think expand pretty widely and everywhere and have ubiquitous DC fast charging but some argue that we already have enough DC fast charging we need more level one level two so either way finding solutions that fit in here um is important and I would love love you said one word you said battery buffer and I just want to make sure that we're clear to our audience about what exactly does a battery buffer mean yeah great great question uh and I think this is where it gets a little bit into some technical details but I'll I'll try to stay um as uh understandable as as possible since I'm also not the most technical expert but essentially uh battery buffer uh charging um enables you to install these chargers at power limited grids so um we take with our systems either 50 or 100 kilowatt from the grid so that's our grid input power then we have the 140 kilowatt hours battery storage the charge boox booster we call it and uh we're able to Output up to 320 kilowatt charging power on the dispenser side so you probably think where do I get the mismatch um from the output power and the input power and that's exactly coming coming from the battery so whenever a vehicle charges um we boost additional energy from the battery to the dispenser and thereby support the grid connection at which we are installed and this enables you to one um Save On Demand charges because your demand charges will always be kept at what you have installed it for in terms of the grid input power so 50 or 100 kilowatt whilst um at the same time still offering Ultra fast charging for um all types of of vehicles really that are currently um in the market and also future Vehicles so it's really um this whole idea of um using the Grits that we have today already um because 50 or 100 kilowatt it's also not nothing but that's uh more often available than 300 or 600 or what you would need for a standard DC charger and really only responding to the demand from the vehicle and boosting um in theory 220 Kow charging power from the battery to the vehicle at the same time so really combining the two sources that's cool that's a cool Compatible standards solution I think you did explain that uh very well and with the with the charge box are you I mean because as we're kind of moving towards the North American charging standard or J 3400 standard the Tesla connector etc etc um we've been working with ccs mostly Chad a little bit before that but what are these standards that are compatible with the charge box um I think as as infrastructure Ure provider and we see this also in terms of communication protocols in terms of features we're always sort of having to respond to what happens on the vehicle side and what's changing on the vehicle side so definitely um to stay up to date with the market our systems are also introducing n ACS um plugs uh but at the same time there's plenty of vehicles still on the roads with ccs1 um connectors so uh it's not an easy situation being being on the infrastructure side in a way um but um obviously we want to offer the best charging experience to the customers of our customers charging at these stations so um we're we're on track to to offer both both Solutions and you've you've spoken to your customers can you paint a picture Customers of what kind of customers would uh this solution be the best for absolutely um I think um the there's a number of different customers one one can imagine um and they all probably share a a a common dilemma is that they are wanting to install um charging infrastructure but they are situated at a location where the grid infrastructure is limited so um they're probably reaching out to their utilities um and the feedback they're getting is um hey it's it's going to take a number of months or maybe even years for us to establish that great connection and it's going to cost this and this amount of money um so with our systems uh I think as it's become clear they can substitute that need for the grid connection and um the type of customers that we're seeing are both in the public charging realm so um in in Germany or Europe we have a lot of um supermarkets installing these systems for example and having the battery um enables the the locations where it's installed to also for example combine solar power with a battery and that's a whole another story that we probably can go into but I I'll I'll try to stick on the customers um we also see in the US for example number of convenience stores um choosing to deploy these systems we see Automotive dealerships with the the POS dealerships for example but also some some for locations that we've outfitted now um so I think that's all in the in the Public Public realm um but we also see um DC fast charging level three charging move more and more into the private realm and there are two two use cases um if you think about an office building um for example at our headquarters in Germany we have installed these systems for employees to to charge their electric vehicles and really this idea of charging becoming an amenity and becoming part of the building infrastructure as well so of course now nowadays offering EV charging is um uh not used at every building uh and and um it's sort of rare to see it maybe also often times um but if you if you think about um and um our see always our CEO always makes this example uh for example an elevator elevator is is part of a building and nobody really thinks about uh the the need to not have an elevator and any sort of um return on investment on the elevator and that's really where we see the DC fast charging also moving to becoming part of the building infrastructure combining it with solar power with the with the battery storage system that we have there and sort of um being being being an amenity and lastly um uh we also see it in in multif family condo buildings uh and we've we've just had a pilot project um installed in um in Miami in Florida um where um we're showing how battery buer DC fast charging is really a solution also for these uh big condo Apartments buildings H yeah you speak of the how Regulation this is I mean if we're looking at real estate I think that it adds value to add EV charging there whether you're renting out apartments condos multi-unit housing or it's a workplace or a larger retail property it does seem to me like it's going to become a deeply valuable part of our real estate world so I'm loving to see that perspective change a little bit and it makes me also think that there's I think there just bits and pieces of what I know of some regulation that's saying okay if you're building condos or parking garages then you have to at least build in the space for the conduit for the Chargers in the future and this is perhaps your realm a little bit regulatory stuff and policy can is can you tell me um well there's a couple different things I know there's incentives specifically for battery Solutions and then um there's I'm sure there's regulation that helps but maybe can you give me a picture of Regulation when it comes to battery buffer technology like this for uh EV charging absolutely um I think in I'll start with Germany and then transition to the US because I think that's probably more the the the market your your main focus is on um what we're seeing for example in Germany is that um also I think in Europe a requirement um for installing solar power on rooftop of um Office Buildings um production facilities and this only becoming more and more so regulatory requirements to install um PV and um then it sort of becomes obvious that you also have a battery storage system which um stores the energy in times when when it's not needed and helps with Peak shaving for example um and there if we add in Additionally the charging functionality with our systems we sort of offering uh multiple functionalities multiple features for for operators and um if you think about the the regulatory space in the US uh in terms of also the requirements that you mentioned in terms of putting in wiring um that is very um diverse and it uh differs not just from state to state but also from uh County to County to different cities having requirements and um you're absolutely right in a more in in a few more Forward Thinking with cities we've seen there to be um the requirements to to install um wiring um but often times um that's um for level two charges and we think that's not necessarily have has been entirely um thought through because if you think about um a building uh let's say it has I don't know 400 units um the equivalent number of of parking spots and um probably you want to have or residents most likely would want to have charging at each of their dedicated parking spots uh however if you then add up the power demand that's necessary so let's just say 100 parking spots and they're each seven s kilowatts charging power that's then 700 in theory when they're all charging at the same time and drawing the power which will not happen but in theory 700 kilowatts power demand that's coming from this one building uh offering EV charging to its residents and so that's why we think um and and that's why also the the project that we've been working with in Miami has decided to go for a battery Buffet solution of a community shared um level three charger because that way they were able to minimize their draw on the grid um avoid demand charges not having to build out the grid uh not having to wait for the grid build out um and at the same time offering the convenience of fast charging for residents at their own building um and um that's something where we see uh if you think about EVS today okay you have a you have a building you have maybe 10 residents they have an EV and it's not that big of a charging demand but if we think forward to five seven 10 years and that's what we intend our systems to be operated for um EVS EV EV adoption will increase and you'll have more power demand at these locations which you have to manage so really a future proof setup also for um multif family um buildings is to install a battery buffer charging solution so I'm thinking about a Queue Queues at a multi-unit housing and so if people are lining up and I've charged it like a free wire before and I drained that battery you know and so I'm wondering how does that work here um if you have this shared device the shared charger how what's the bounceback time how how long does someone have to wait in between someone else charging yeah um I think there's there's two questions you you rais here one in terms of the dimensioning of the system and and the battery size and I think I'll I like to get to that later so please remind me if I if I forget in term in terms of the queuing um that that is a con concern um that we also hear um however um one I think the reality is that um not everybody's charging necessarily at the same time and wanting to request that charge at the same time um two um for example for more of Market locations they can be paired with valet charging Services where they then um charge the vehicle for you um additionally charging and recharging your vehicle is always a mix right so people uh at this house at this um multif Family building they'll not only be reliant on that one charger but as we see more charging at workplaces when they're on the road um uh when they're at a supermarkets um these are all locations where they will charge and I think we'll see in the in the next few years um that charging will be so ubiquitous that um this becomes less less of a question um and two and and the other side of that question is the the reality of what it would mean to not um have queuing or um what would I need to install for for having for example resident dedicated charging and we we spoke already about the power demand of everybody getting level two charger if we maybe outfit 20 shared parking spots then it's again a share a sharing issue um so I think and this sort of maybe bit bit my personal opinion but uh a mix of of Level One charging with a level three charger uh could be a really good solution for um multif Family buildings um because you you get a good bit of energy also from a level one charger uh and in need you can you can get a level three charge as well well and and that would resolve a number of issues I think I think you're totally right where we need the diversity of charging Diversity of Charging because people have different needs and we focus typically the focus that I see is on DC fast charging you know get the fastest charges out there but the workplace charging the at home charging charging being an amenity for you know level one and level two or just something that's not even thought about anymore it just is going to be wherever you are because more and more people are adopting EVS I'm very eager to see that but of course we are only only where we are so far of course we can look to other markets in Europe and luckily learn your lessons since you're a bit ahead in that so you mentioned that earlier and I did like the idea of that please help us uh shape our future because gosh I don't I don't want this to come across this way in terms of lecturing so I hope it's not taken the wrong way no no no no no it's it's really is interesting because I think there are a lot of lessons learned already in the industry that I'm eager for those making the decisions and put in the infrastructure to learn the lessons once and um yeah that's that's just my personal opinion as well but you did mention something about the battery and I would love to talk about I mean you have battery storage solutions as well would love to mention those you mentioned the solar um but also the battery chemistry the battery sizes what's going on there we are a bit nerdy over here and like to think about that as well okay um I'll go into that a little bit and I think first what I want to touch up is the touch on is the um dimensioning of the battery and the system overall because in terms of battery buffer charging Solutions and Battery buer DC fast charging Solutions it's really important and that's what we also try to focus on in the development of our systems to dimensioning it in such a way that the combination of the grid connection so what you're getting from the grid uh the size of the battery and what it is it is able to provide um and then the output um is set up in such a way that it provides maximum performance and um a really important element of battery Buffet charging to understand here is that um we whenever there's a vehicle charging they have their charging curves um so say like any vehicle and they Peak at maybe 270 or whatever and then they're decreasing again as as the battery becomes Fuller and Fuller um as soon as the charging power that we're boosting from the grid and the battery to the vehicle drops below the grid input power so below the 100 kilow as soon as that happens we recharge the internal battery again and are um prepping the system for the next charging session so it's um really important to um understand that with battery buer charging um you're not just relying on the energy that's in the 140 kilowatt hours of the battery stoed system but it's a combination of the grid input put Power and the battery and here um in terms of dimensioning the system um a super important figure and and parameter is the grid input power so if you if you only have 22 kilow or 39 kilowatts of input power then I think it sort of becomes obvious and and people driving a they'll know at what point of their state of charge um um the curve drops the curve drops low enough for the internal system to recharge again uh and that's by our systems we and most of them install them at 100 kilow because for many vehicles and um most Mass Market Vehicles definitely um there's a there's a peak definitely we Boost energy from the vehicle uh from the from the battery to the vehicle but soon maybe around 50 60% they um they drop below 100 kilowatts and then we can just feed through from the grid and recharge the internal battery again um cool so often times I I get the question so it's 140 kilowatt hours that's like two Teslas to to be charged and really it's not because one they don't arrive empty but two um their charging power drops below the grid input power and then perhaps the internal battery again for the next charging session interesting so yeah go ahead sorry and just to maybe um uh follow that up with some real real life data um we see that um at at our locations I have used in in Germany um where a lot of high power high power vehicles are charging um R about 1.2 megawatt hours of energy throughput per day 7 megawatt hours per week which is really quite sizable if you think about this compact system um and 140 kilowatt hour battery yeah that is a lot of energy running through there and it's cool to think of uh the recharging of the battery as it's in use um so you don't have to necessarily like wait for these Cycles it's it's working with the grid yeah it's sort of uh recharging as it's charging sort to say and that that's why like dimensioning in the right way for for high performance um is really important of course you you require 100 kilowatt input power from the grid so certain locations which are very rural might be out of question um for for that setup but um it wouldn't be a good perform performance or offering for for end customers uh for Vehicle drivers and so yeah that's the the decision you have to make yeah different use cases for sure and I see how this could fit in some and Battery Chemistry just like any option could fit in some and not fit in others but finding that opportunity and I'm sure a lot of research went into that as well and uh I know you know you're not like an engineer unless you are as well an engineer um and I don't know that but with research and development um the I mentioned this earlier but the battery chemistry do you have a little bit of information on that yeah sure um so uh in in principle where um battery cell chemistry agnostic uh which also for the time span of the system if you think about obviously there lot lots of development happening and say chemistries are changing and um obviously they always improving so in principle we could also work with different cell chemists cell chemistries in the existing systems um we've worked with a number of different cell chemistries in in the past which also sort of shows that we're we're quite agnostic towards that um currently the majority is uh nmc um based uh batteries uh but we're also working um with lfb um cell chemistries and I think that's where where everybody sees also the the market moving towards um more and more lfp also on the vehicle side um just a question of of cost and availability um but in principle um we ad estic energy we we just take the cell from a from a supplier but then um everything else other than the cell is in-house developed and therefore Also the battery module is um developed by us um produced by us and um what really only changes is the the battery cell um and theoretically a number of different ones can be Can Be Imagined here H cool yeah Reliability I I'm I'm hearing this agnostic where a lot in the industry whether it's a like a whole network operator or the EV manufacturers whatever oems there are they're like yeah I'm open to the best technologies that that's coming around so um honestly I think it's good to hear that because I don't think we figured everything out quite yet um and especially when it comes to efficiency and reliability so you talked about getting these Sals from the manufacturer and then you build the system around it how do you build in the best efficiency and reliability unfortunately in the US reliability has been a huge word because there has unfortunately been unreliable EV infrastructure it has gotten better I will stress that I've done a lot of EV road trips lately none have left me stranded or even close to stranded but how do you at ads Tech energy try to ensure that we can be confident um yeah it's super important question for us as well um we I think in in General on the topic of reliability um it helps or is important to recognize that this is still a nent industry and a lot of the infrastructure that out is out there is this Legacy infrastructure that's been installed in the early days um it's still around um and probably wasn't maintained properly it it also didn't provide the best the highest charging power um but it's still recognized as a charging point point out there and everything that's new um is is I think we can be more confident in that being more um more reliable infrastructure but definitely it's a I think that the IND a topic that the industry as a whole um has to work on and I was at a um an event recently where they where they highlighted that only 3% of um reliability issues are based on electrical problems so if we think about that network of of players involved in delivering EV charging so the cyos the chargement operator um the wireless communication uh the payment provider um there are a number of players involved which have to have to match um together um at at ad estic energy we um I think one one element that I can can mention here with which is quite specific to our Solutions is that um on the battery cell level we monitor every battery cell and um sort of create a digital twin um of that cell so that um in terms of the longevity of the battery storage system we really always have a good picture into the system and can ensure that it's um all up to speed all up to expectation and uh Whenever there would be anything that would go wrong we can um substitute that um module and um not having to to change the entire system um so I think um what I often hear from an investor standpoint is that uh people want to have a return on investment in in maybe two three years on their charging infrastructure installation uh which is really not the approach we're trying to take in providing this system for more than a a decade to be to be operated and therefore having that in-house development having full control over all the components um that make up our platform Solutions um helps us to be maybe in some cases a step ahead in terms of reliability H that makes me wonder how Customer Experience do I pay at at your stations is it tap is it card do I make an account what's the customer experience like um essentially we provide the our customers uh so B2B we provide them with our platform solutions for them to operate so uh it's really a question of how the operator wants to uh the person who the company that installs charger wants to offer EV charging uh but same as all the other players in the market we're um uh offering uh a payment terminal as well um RFID cards um app Solutions obviously um we're also working towards plug and charge and and have that implemented with a few customers already so cool from Hardware side uh we are able to provide all these options um it's really on the operator then to to decide um which which options they want to want to use and that might include solar as well if I wanted that in my in my setup and build it into this system so that I could technically charge the battery with solar is that is that the case would that be an option as one of your customers yeah um so obviously you have that battery there and the batter is not just therefore buffering buffering charging charging is just one feature that current most customers are interested in in deploying and using but having this battery there um and it's also so obvious that you can do so many many more things with that and it becomes much more of a like Swiss army knife uh in terms of um yeah feeding power back into the grid um um feeding it back to maybe a convenience store location integrating solar from from the rooftop um of a of a building and um really the battery providing this this flexibility for customers and um what we see is that um and this is sort of maybe speaks a little bit to our vision as well um say customer has 20 or 30 50 whatever number of systems uh and if you then think about the battery capacity and and if he pulls that in in a virtual power plant quite a sizable megawatt hour or even maybe gwatt hour um of of um battery storage capacity um Aggregates and um the the the operator and we have some customers that um intend to to um deploy this also especially currently more in Europe um they can take part in frequency regulation for the grid for example and um really use this battery storage capacity not just for charging but sort of work of several multiple revenue streams which from an investor standpoint is always a nice nice word they like hearing so and it's it's obviously also a case if if um you deploy all these Solutions yeah I I think a lot of our listeners appreciate the holistic Centralized vs Decentralized approach where it's like okay I have a battery I have solar I start to create my micro grid and we at the beginning we did mention centralized versus decentralized and I'd love for you to expand on that a little bit as well is it and and it's is it kind of the Chicken and the Egg where did it become more decentralized and then this helped the opportunity for you know battery buffering systems to fit in or was it the other way around where it's like maybe we should go more decentralized just because the way that the grid is set up in the new needs from EV charging does that make sense I'm asking there yeah I think I think I know what what you're getting at um I think um that's exactly one one compet core competency that we we want to play to is this complexity at a specific location having different input different output uh different types of of um revenue streams for operators and if you think about the the grid infrastructure when were electricity grids built up like in the early early 1900s um they were never or back then obviously weren't designed to provide EV charging in the sense that uh we see it now and we see it projected also for the future with these power demands you think um maybe a standard DC charger 300 Kow maybe 350 even and and compare that to the the power demand average of of a house of maybe 1.2 kilowatt so really a significant multiple of what a house requires today compared to an EV charger and I think that really exemplifies um like the the the amountain that's sort of to climb um and I think there's a lot of focus on transmission grids um and that's sort of maybe also what you mostly pick up in the media media there's a maybe new wind power farms of the of the East Coast or big solar power generation in Nevada or Florida and um really these big projects that um impact um transmission capacity but um like a common phrases to say the energy transition is happening at the distribution level and um so there for at the distribution level also building out the grids to have this strength for all these 365 days in a year every hour providing um the the maximum amount of charging power output just doesn't seem to us like gets the the best solution definitely uh and I think we're humble in that way that also along major interstates highways you want to build out the grid you want to offer charging maybe at 20 30 different uh stalls and and that's um super important to build out the Grid in those locations and to also Focus efforts there but um as we see this world where DC charging is maybe available or charging is available nearly everywhere um it requires a mix of solutions and yes um like intermittent renewable resources solar and and PV I think they've been coming along strong in the in the last two two decades I mean technologies have been around for for a longer time but um for them to really be installed and in in Germany for example um this this whole idea of the preser so um uh a household they're not just an energy consumer but they're also presume a producer with the PV that's on their rooftop so they're contributing to the energy generation and um that's I think that's where the complexity comes from and obviously why are we doing this because renewable energies uh reduce emissions and um our also marginal cost of energy generation cheaper than um fossil power power energy resources so I think there's a number of factors playing playing into this bigger Challenges in the US picture certainly and it is kind of like we're having at least I would love to see Tiny micro grids everywhere that are contributing perhaps you can give it back to the grid but there is a lot of power energy to capture uh and use and perhaps recycle back into the grid that batteries comes in and plays obviously an essential role and I know that you've brought in a lot of lessons from uh you know your parent company essentially your background in Europe into this Market but while you've been in this market has there been anything maybe a challenge turned into a lesson or an opportunity that you found as you've come into the US that you could enlighten me on sure um I think um and I really want to highlight this and stress this the the US Market is also different in many ways to to the European German Market um just if you think about the types of vehicles they are um I think the the types of vehicles people drive is much more towards the the larger um types of vehicles and I think we sort of somehow have been a bit astounded to see the the size of the battery packs for example in some of these trucks or um more premium vehicles um really going Way Beyond what what we sort of seeing seeing in Europe but but also Daily driving distances are much greater in the US so there's more of a need need for that maybe um it is a much bigger country as well and bridging that rural urban divide is much more of a relevant um aspect in in the US so um we've seen that um the the challenges in the grid infrastructure um especially in the rural areas are much more pronounced um in that way that um for them there was one one one example of a um this was a location in in Utah I believe where to only get the the the the right amount of power to the location they had intended to build up um station they had to pull new wiring um pull new lines of two two and a half miles and was something about5 million us doar so um the I think this idea of the charging deserts is much more pronounced in the US very much so yeah uh there's a lot of Charging deserts rural areas that have charging deserts there's also charging deserts that just kind of end up in certain states for different reasons some states aren't going as full-fledged EV charging as well um and I know some of their EV drivers EV driving citizens are like okay come along so there's certainly gaps to fill I bet that has been uh pretty crazy to see the giant battery packs that we put in we love the big car so of course we're gonna have to just shove a full of batteries like the uh the Silverado eeve that truck wreath in the Hummer I mean those are extreme examples but I do love the city cars too like let's just let's just commute we don't have to have the biggest battery yeah I think interesting that's if you think about um the the whole question of range anxiety um and and the the mileage you want to have and of course um uh I think there's this um concept of the American road trip uh which me not coming from the US is maybe not most familiar to but people just love to go on long road trips as well and and um that I can understand where the the range anxiety comes from in that sense um but that's where I think we need to match it with the charging infrastructure and I think you're driving EV as far as I understand and and I'm driving TV and um if you make that experience yourself and you recognize it's much less about the mileage than it is about the availability of having a charging port there to quickly get you up to 80% again um then I think you might be less worried about having necessarily the biggest biggest battery size um in in your vehicle 100% yeah it's it's changing a little bit from the range anxiety to actually charging anxiety like once I is there going to be a charger and once I get there is it going to work which question of resiliency and uh reliability efficiency that all comes into play instead but I we are seeing more Chargers on the road but it's it's great to give sight hosts more options because I do see we're also able to take the idea of what was gas stations and then what EV charging was in the beginning and kind of be like hey we can make our own experience out of EV charging H it's it's a bit hard to do the mom and pop shop with EV charging it's easier to be like a big box store or property management or whatever but there's so much potential there to to build it out how we want and I think there was also a learning for for me a little bit coming coming to the US that um just the significance that gas stations um play in sort of the maybe the cultural heritage of of the country um and this American road trip that um a gas station is not just just a gas station but um like a place you take a break you stop on your your trip um and also the convenience store aspect of it so it has I think where in Europe um it's specifically in Germany it's often this idea of oh we don't need these gas stations anymore and we're just getting fuel from there I think um and and we have to develop like these new sites um what my understanding is in in in the US but I'm obviously also always learning as well is that um gas stations are more than just providing a fuel for a vehicle um and that's interesting in terms of like the the cyos that are um popping up also definitely yeah I've looked into Cultural differences that market as well which is like convenience stores and they make a lot of money off of the the fuel that they sell but they make a lot of money off of the snacks too which is what I'm always stopping for and what I wanted my charge site is like uh air conditioning or shade at least and somewhere where I can get snacks because I'm sitting there for a minute so it is cool to see the the cultural differences the regulatory differences policies the different adoption EV adoption rates and that has affected things um and I'm sure it's yeah it's cool to get the perspective of you know the big giant US country and we're all about our road trips and as far as we can go in one one tank of gas um and and and enact that yeah into your your strategy here yeah I I hope I wasn't overgeneralizing with that um no you're it's very true some some uh experience that I've made or or yeah we've got to get you to have your ameran road trip Coast to Coast one day in an Eevee our our team has done that we we even had we raced the four four Eevee trucks um from Florida to California well yeah to see just how they stretched it out but that Silverado Eevee with that giant battery did I think that I think it won or it came second but either way that really helped them because they could stretch it but I should check on that if you want to yeah it's a it's a fun little series um but okay so looking into the future I I see Looking into the future the role of battery energy storage in a lot of ways but I want to know from your perspective being at ads Tech energy what do you see what's it going to look like right now some people might say hey this is a kind of like a Band-Aid on the issue but I also see like oh well this is a really a solution in a lot of places that we we don't have to treat it as a Band-Aid this could be a permanent solution in a lot of in a lot of parts of the market so yeah what do you see looking like 5 to 10 years into the future um it can be Global it can also be US based it can be Europe yeah what do you think um I think there there are two major developments here at play um one is that um as we're building out this um fundamental charging infrastructure Network um there's many locations where um it makes sense to to um upgrade the grid to have the grid power available also if you think about the medium heavy duty segment um there's so much um more charging power available and especially in the beginning staging stages I think that's where a lot of the focus um has been however if we think about um all the things that are happening in the electrification space and all the additional demands that are going to be put on the grid over the next um 10 20 30 40 years um and this is also something we um hear in discussions with grid operators is that um they fundamentally will not be able to build out the grid so so substantially that um you will get um maximum charging power at all locations and if we think about the power demand from data centers from um production being ever more electrified um there's just so much happening that's putting strain on the grid that's um I think we in the EV charging industry um need to recognize that there's also other developments at play um and therefore I think the the need for battery based Solutions uh will only increase um as the like the challenge of power limited crits becomes more and more pronounced and we're um targeting more and more locations that are maybe today not exactly next to the interstate in a state that's very proe and that's got utility policies that uh make it easy to build out the grids um the other development is that the the battery and um I think here the idea of this platform solution is really important to us um we're not just providing a charging service but the the battery can also provide um uh provide an element to the the energy transition in terms of um for examp storing renewable energies when when they are produced um feeding back into the grid when there is a power demand um also taking part in frequency regulation uh and so that platform solution um in terms of what the battery provides um offers so much more than just a a simple AC to DC uh converter that is a um is a standard DC charging station um and that's where we we see the future um charging becoming an amenity more becoming part of building infrastructure um really popping up in in number of locations um and as Renewables increase um and the share of Renewables um batteries will play a bigger and bigger role and I think um the more we operate our systems um and the more experience there also is with battery storage systems um I think we one they become more performant they become safer they become um much more um I think we have so many insights that in terms of the longevity getting out of them um that um they'll they'll they'll have to play a pivotal role in in our energy transition and also contribute to the mobility transition in terms of charging thank you for that very interesting I appreciate your point of view I do and I'm yeah I'm interested to see how this all shapes out with batteries I think they do feel a very much a need that exists in this market and the technology is advancing dramatically all the time that's my job is to track it and it's it's been cool to watch it so um yeah I I appreciate you coming on to the podcast to tell me all about ads Tech energy and what you're offering here and if I wanted to find one of your some of your Hardware in the US could I where would I go I'd say you'd more easily find it currently in Europe um however FL yeah quick flight exactly however um as mentioned before we're at Porsche card dealership locations around a little over 100 I think in 29 different states so there might be a good chance there there's one close by to you um we're um increasingly also um at convenience store locations um especially in northeast of the country and um I think you'll best spotted if you um convince your a condo or your multi family building to to install a uh one of our battery weord Solutions then you'll see it every day okay cool yeah everyone if you're listeners if you're interested in you know maybe getting some Hardware you can visit ads Tech energy online and check out their products and everything um but yeah I do think it's a really interesting option with the battery buffer and provides a lot of opportunity for us to continue expanding and promoting EV adoption light duty heavy duty mega medium duty yeah whatever light all those all the duties and continue to grow all finding Solutions while the grid takes its form and figures out also what's best because I think there's high pressure to on utilities to like meet the demand that's going to be that is today but let's make sure we think it out very very thoughtfully so that we build it out correctly the first time definitely yeah yeah I appreciate your time today Michael uh for yeah giving me all the Insight here I I really thank you so much for coming on to the podcast it was lovely speaking with you yeah thanks for having me I I enjoyed our conversation great can't wait to use some of your Hardware one day soon maybe I'll go find a Porsche dealer that would be fun um and thank you listeners for tuning in for another episode of the outp effect podcast let us know what questions you have we're always talking about batteries battery energy storage solutions I know that we all like to than full circle and I think this kind of solution is definitely working in that direction drive safe stay charged we'll see you next time bye-bye [Music]