Vinnie Politan Investigates: The Death of John O’Keefe | MA v Karen Read

Intro >> Welcome to Vinnie politan investigates I'm Julia Janae filling in for Ben tonight, our investigation is focused on a woman named Karen who reached her trial was in Dedham Massachusetts and it's divided the community there and people across the country. Here's her story. >> Jarran Reed was a college professor dating a Boston police officer named John o'keefe outside of her family friends and students, no one really knew much about her, but that anonymity changed one snowy night in Canton Massachusetts after she and John went bar hopping downtown here and drove them to the home of another Boston police officer he had invited a bunch of folks over his House floor, a little after hours party before the blizzard was supposed to roll to town John o'keefe died that night and everyone agrees it was a homicide, but the question is who is risk possible and the answer depends upon who you ask the prosecution says John never made it inside at home because Karen purposely backed over him and left him lying in the cold in the front yard to die. Karen says John went inside to the party and she went back to John's House she also believes it was someone from inside that House who killed John and put him in the yard to frame her after more than 9 weeks more than 70 witnesses and nearly 5 days of deliberations the jury could not reach a unanimous verdict. >> And a mistrial was declared Karen Reid will have to do it all again, but what will a new jury make of the evidence at trial number 2. >> And here's what the prosecution says Karen Reed drove herself and her boyfriend John o'keefe over to the Albert house that night and when John got out of the SUV she purposely backed into him and left him at the scene but around the same time that Karen and John arrived at the Albert House Ryan a goal and 2 friends were picking up pulling up in a pickup truck and Ryan sister was at that party. She needed a ride home according to Brian Nichols testimony, the pickup truck was behind Karen's vehicle, the entire time. It was in front of the House and no one in that car reported seeing John o'keefe walk into the House are being struck by Cairns vehicle. >> Black SUV in front what if anything did you observe about. Moving back the economy. >> I noticed that the brake lights, the only reason I know this noticed is because the brake lights on. >> and moved. It's a move that may be another car length in front of us after you. >> Turn from cedar crest on the air that vehicles in front of you. >> Yes, Sir, yes, as far as. >> Around the vehicle and any point time to serve anybody get to the vehicle the outside of >> I know certainly did not. You see anybody go from the vehicle. No Sir, what if anything to do with that right. Pulled out to go around the SUV in front of us and on the whole I observed that there was a person inside the car interior light on. And that would be sort of a phone line is that right correct. Sir, yes, you see where the where don't like was part of it left right or center of the House and Senate. And a private person that you Where they They're in the driver's seat. And this from a first as a woman. And how do you know that it wasn't. That long hair she might she was looking straight ahead with their hands at 10 2 on the stand will. >> You didn't see a person standing in line on the ground anywhere around that is you need to know that you did look inside that SUV as I passed by yes when you saw one person that's all I saw at the time MS. Female with long hair is wrecked. You did not see anybody else inside that SUV no not to my Did Karen Hit John OKeefe knowledge. >> So what we're digging into if Ryan Nagle had a clear view of Cairns SUV from the time it pulled up to the House and didn't see anyone get out of the vehicle. How could Karen Reid be alone in the vehicle when Ryan a goal and his friends left. So that brings us to our first big question of the night. Did Karen hit. Officer John o'keefe with her car our so we want to bring in our guests we have 2 people who can tell you both sides of the arguments in this case, Kerry supporter and creator of the justice for officer John o'keefe and Karen read facebook page Nick Rocco is with us we also have the creator behind yellow cottage tales youtube channel Kevin Lenihan is with us as well great to have you both on to talk about this case. Nick let me start with you what does this witness testimony tell you. >> About whether or not Karen Reid hit John o'keefe with her vehicle. >> So I think Brian Abel stating the fact that Kerry was along in her car when they drove by putting John o'keefe not on the lawn not inside the car there there was only one place that he was headed and that was 34 feet you wrote so when you got out of Cairns vehicle. He didn't go for a job run down the street he went inside the House. Now Brian Nagel is you know he's from Canton he knows all those players so for him to get on the stand and put John not in that vehicle. I'm not sure what else he could have been as he wasn't on the lawn care didn't back up at that point like they're saying so where else can you B I mean it's it's at this point I think that question if he's not there is only one of the place you can be in its inside the House. >> Which is what Carol Reed's defense has argued in this case, Kevin when and how do you see this testimony from Ryan Nicol. >> That's hard to focus and I think it's a mistake to focus on things that we don't see that someone doesn't say you can only focus on things they do say it's hard to explain why someone doesn't see something so one thing that came out in trial was that the plow driver lucky Lawford plow the street at 5.30. That's only a half-hour before John was found. And he despite plowing the street and all the lights city had up there didn't see John on the there either, so I mean. What Ryan Nagle was doing when he pulled up. He's he's looking at his phone he's talking to his girlfriend, the back seat, we don't know exactly what he's doing, but he's not paying attention to this long and there's no Street like there at the end of the property, so it's very very dark. We do know that the. That what he did see was that the interior light was on so John was probably in some process of getting out or having just got out, and just it's important to keep in mind that the GPS which could not be challenged by the defense because there's no way to challenge that kind of data. >> Shows that John did not go inside the house he was never even seen according to that GPS heading in the direction of the House. He was found at the edge of the that you last ups points or at the end of the property of the far edge where he Karen let them off and that's where he was found. let's John dropped his phone there and went inside the House. You know the more likely thing is that there's people just didn't see him. >> Nick what do you think is the strongest evidence that John o'keefe was actually inside of the House. >> during Brian Higgins his testimony he actually places, I'm tall male with dark hair inside the House never it never named them. He knew who they all were so it wouldn't have been a surprise if for example if it was Colin or right now the junior he would know who they were yes, he didn't know John but I think he specifically didn't name John o'keefe because if the if he puts John in the House, he sees kind of turning on the whole everybody inside out youth in going if he doesn't put John in the House now he's lying to the feds and you know the penalty of that. But other than other than that you the ways to do with the timing being off it's just his phone shows John going up the 3 flights of stairs. So as far as him being inside the House. He wasn't on the lawn, nobody saw him out there, I know Kevin says it's not what people don't see but it's very hard to miss expecially when Brian Higgins, you know supposedly parked out front he turned his car lights on you're not going to miss John o'keefe on that long run as an inch to an inch of snow at that point you just physically could not see it if you are looking you still would see something that. >> We're going take a look at that more next we are and I know that Kevin has something he wants to show us in that regard, but let me focus back to the snowy night the do you think the conditions Kevin if you're the prosecution had anything to do with the lack of people being able to see because this that's a blizzard everyone was waiting for, but they seem to be conflicting accounts about whether the president had started whether it was heavy weather was just flurries. >> I don't think it was snowing very hard at the time when the guests were leaving the House or when the pickup truck with Brighton England was driving by what I think is is if you go out and get a new card now and drive to the supermarket, whatever you know couple blocks away. And come home, there's going to be 10,000 objects inside yards. That are dark and on moving and your mind is not going to pay attention to that's just to its peripheral vision and unless something populous something signals are conscious mind to flags it and says here's something interesting year you're not going to make any note of it so if John had been moving then that would more likely for people but otherwise he's just a dark on moving object that they the conscious mind is that really going to pick up as the driving by we have so much more to talk about. Did Anyone See John OKeefe >> In this case that still has lingering questions our guests are going to stay with us coming up next. >> There are a lot of people going in and out that House why didn't anyone see John okay on the law. >> We got in that SUV of yours you can see the thing out of the ordinary outside correct. I wasn't looking outside. Is the answer that you want to. >> serve you >> I case up I noticed big SUV parked the truck. >> So when I noticed looking out the window I did notice in front of the mailbox and then pulled up a little bit in front of us. ♪ The yard. And then stopped and pulled up again towards the final. >> There were multiple party guests who were inside at the Albert home at this party looking out the window they reported seeing Karen Reid SUV pull up in front of that house that night prosecutors say that it's within minutes of that rival the John o'keefe exited the car and was struck by Cairns vehicle traveling in the river. And if that's the way it happened. John o'keefe would have been lying outside in the front lawn when that party was over in the guests found their way out of the House and to their own cars. >> At no time did you hear any noise or sound outside that was unusual time now. And here in its wheeling tires squealing brakes. Now you can hear me screaming or yelling, know your loud voices, the foul language or door slam. Now you can hear the verbal argument for the reading of an engine anything like that now. I can hear the collision crash did you know you left location. You can see anything out of the ordinary she got in was it your car Mister mccain's car because my car. We got in that SUV of yours you didn't see anything out of the ordinary outside correct. I wasn't looking outside. >> Okay, I know that. >> Is the answer that you want to every question my question is yes are you seeing out of >> After being at. >> The offer home for a period of time early that morning, you loved. Approximately one 40 am or so yeah give or take one 4145, don't know the exact time you walked out with your wife Jennifer okay, of trying to use for correct. Hi, yes found Bryant's 2 friends were joining Jennifer night we were driving them home and when you first came out of the House facing that front lawn you didn't see a black baseball cap, correct. That's correct or walk. Speaker correct that's correct for 45 pieces of red plastic chair line correct that's correct for even one right. That's correct and once again you didn't see a 6 foot 2, 1, more on direct, you know I wish I did, but I didn't coming up the front door of your house, you would agree with me to your parents front lawn is directly in front of direct yes up by that time snow started to accumulate at one 45 am correct. Yes against white snow could you see a black baseball cap. I did not as you step out of the House did you see a black sneakers. I did not use the 45 pieces of red white plastic. I did not know that you see one piece of red like last I Why Didnt Anyone See John OKeefe did not he just says 6 foot 2 man on your parents one in front of you traction did you. I did not. >> Some of the most important evidence in the case is eyewitness testimony. We don't have that here but the next best thing to an eyewitness testimony before and after witness and that's what these are but that brings us to our next question why didn't anyone see John o'keefe on the law. Still with us Nic Rocco and Kevin lenahan Nick I messed up a little bit earlier you're the one that has something that you want to show us having to do with people going in and out of that house in particular someone else who took the stand. >> Yes so Brian The Commonwealth is trying very hard to please his vehicle in between gul's vehicle in Carol Reed's vehicle. Now let's just say that his vehicle was there and this this video almost goes to anybody that would drive down that Street and what it is it's a re creation for micro dots and it's Brian Higgins vehicle parked right outside the mailbox he turned his lights on he's getting ready to drive away. What do you see his lights are right on the flexible and John being so close to the street. You there there's almost no way to miss it whether you're looking for it or not when there's about an inch of snow on the ground everything is white except the 6 foot. Audi you just you just can't miss it so the only person that stated they saw something was juliane Nagel in she placed a black log on the lawn now it wasn't like the next day when they found Sean o'keefe body. She was like oh my God that's what I saw on the lawn last night that's what I remember know it took her it wants to get interviewed by Michael prompted to find the say you know I did see a star something on the lot of black object and then a year later during court she remembered was 5 to 6 feet long nobody saw John o'keefe on the lawn because he was not out there. Karen had left to go back to John's because she didn't back into won't be was inside the House and then later on that night early morning, somebody had placed him outside. I mean if he wasn't there and nobody We're cutting event. >> And we're going to get to more of what Julie said because that is an important thing to look back at the Kevin first I want to get your reaction to the question. >> Why didn't anyone see John o'keefe on the lawn they were going out not just one person multiple people going back to their cars and. >> No one seeing a body. A shoe, a hat. >> Well I can react little bit to that video first it's obviously fictional and I don't think most people Park in a yard would expect that their lights to illuminate the yard if you're parked on the street and we don't know exactly what direction is but the lights are designed to eliminate the road in front of you. And we also know from Ryan Jenkins testimony that when he began to drive off his plow was into law the position and as he drove you had to adjust it so he's probably he's I was looking down at something else what again you're trying to trying to focus on what people didn't see a dark and moving object when what we have in terms of the correlation of the vehicle data which was not challenged by the defense. And the data on John's phone. Perfectly shows just like a video or a picture that there's no way that Karen didn't do this. So Karen was felt they were following ways to get to 34 Fairview she missed a turn onto Fairview that's recorded by ways a little bit after that she does a three-point turn flakes 8 1015 seconds after that to adjust and you can see that in the vehicle data then she finally takes to turn on to Fairview which is recorded in ways. 8 minutes and 4 seconds after that three-point turn that she didn't see the press before that. 8 minutes and 4 seconds out that puts it at 1232. And say 9 seconds. Health up on John's phone shows that he stopped moving for the last time until 6 o'clock in the morning with somebody picked up his phone. He stopped moving at 12 32 in 16 seconds the correlation is bullet proof you can't punch a hole in it it's better than a picture. There's no way around it just have to present this to a jury properly. >> And this is why it was so difficult for. >> A jury because 2 sides arguing the same thing about the evidence and we'll talk more about this one person who said she saw something match you and Jennifer McKay they agreed to take Sarah Levinson and Julie Nagle home after the party and Julie took the stand to testify that she did see something unusual on the lawn, let's take a listen. >> I did behind CERN did something out of the ordinary I'm like a black in the ground by the flag pole. >> So they just talked about this Julie neg also testified that after she saw the black Bob on the lawn that she mentioned it to the others in the car. But no one else in the car remember her making that statement but Nick I want to bring up something that Kevin said the snow plow or did you can see anything out in that area in the lawn as well so is it possible that. >> He didn't see it she could have seen something even if he didn't. >> Well Julie nato's testimony I think at this point being interviewed 8 months later by Michael drop there. I don't think she has much credibility just for the fact that her story got I want to say better, but e in the fall to fit the prosecution from the first time she interviewed to the last she interviewed it just got more detailed. So like I said if she saw something on the lawn after they were done talking about the peanut butter and jelly sandwiches in the car. I think the next day when John was found the first thing anybody would have been like is like that's what I saw on the lawn it right down the Police Department and it could have been is the first eyewitness, but instead it took way too for that to come to come out 8 months later at 2 years later during the trial. So I don't think what she's saying is credible, I think they needed to have at least one person see something because how do you just not have 1314. >> Whoever else drove down the down the road. >> That early morning aside from the PLA drive and the person pop the Ford edge exactly what John's body was nobody saw the body to call 911, it's it's almost impossible. >> Kevin real quick before we have to go to a break we talked about the conditions you said it would have been that bad 1230 but now we're talking about an hour later do you think that had anything to do with it or the festivities that are going on inside of this party where alcohol was present. >> I just think your peripheral vision doesn't pick up stuff like that, but what's also just apply some quick logic here so let's say that defense theory is true that the for people in the car knew that John was lying there dead or dying on so the defense series they put them out later right so I just. Apologize I. That there is they put it out later and I just don't think I think he was there and people didn't see him I mean that's the most sensible I think can you look at the rest of us so much for coming. >> Comments as well, thanks for being with us we do have to get to our break I'm Julie jannay in for Vinnie Paul Dunne we'll keep digging for answers as the investigation. Who Killed John OKeefe >> Welcome to Vinnie politan investigates I'm Julia Janae filling in for vianey tonight. Our investigation focuses on the death of a Boston police officer John o'keefe and the woman, the prosecutors say is responsible is his girlfriend, Karen Reid here's her story. >> Boston police officer John o'keefe was found dead on a fellow police officers fun launch in January of 2022 prosecutors say after a night of bar-hopping jons girlfriend, Karen Reid dropped him at a house for an after party before purposely backing her SUV into him and leaving him to die in the snow but Karen Reid says John did go into that House party and inside John was killed and left and outside to frame her for the death. Jeremy's case drew national attention at trial. The jury could make a decision a mistrial was declared and now Karen will have to do it all again for trial number 2 going ♪ forward will either side change their strategy. >> The defense in this case filed a motion to dismiss 2 of the 3 charges against Karen Reed after a mistrial was declared in her case the defense argued that jurors from this case came forward after that decision and they revealed that they had in fact behind closed doors re reached a unanimous verdict of not guilty on the charges of second-degree murder and leaving the scene of an injury or death. The judge heard oral arguments for the defense's motion to dismiss in the months that followed the trial. >> cool it. >> That the lead to the beach. >> We can just. Except defection. The Did the Jury Believe Karen Read Hit John OKeefe >> Now the judge in this case judge Beverley can ony ultimately denied the defense's motion to dismiss those 2 charges. If the jurors agree that Karen Reid was not guilty of 2 of the 3 charges against her. Here's our question. >> Did the jury believe that Karen Reid hit John o'keefe with the car. >> Let's bring in our guests for this segment criminal defense attorney Joseph Krauss King junior, a trial attorney and partner at Brown Rudnick LLP Wayne Dennison is with us thank you both for being here. Let's first talk about the reaction from these shores there's a way let me start with you. >> If the jurors coming for the judge said she was going to accept or motion as accurate. But what do you think that says if those statements are accurate about what those jurors in the jury room believed about the impact and if it happened. >> If it's the statements record is quite clear that they didn't think that carried intentionally killed John o'connor. >> And that scene and that the issue which I think was overcharged to begin with is probably off the table. From the report that we thus farm glean what we know know is that we've got. >> The route. >> Some jurors who apparently. The possibility that she hit him with the car. I think that that's the only thing I can glean from. >> Yeah those reports are really important. The judge did not bring in any jurors into the courtroom to talk to them directly, but she did say for purposes of making that order that she would except what everyone was saying about these jurors statement. Robert let me ask you if you think based on what we've heard heard about the split and what jurors are saying inside of that jury room if they believe that she actually did hit him with the car even if they couldn't agree on that middle count of manslaughter. >> To mean You forgot about me already a couple of weeks That just so so what the import of the information for the sake of argument is. >> I mean that the first charge was charged with murder if they believe that Karen Reid was not guilty of that charge showing murder Massachusetts requires I proved that she intentionally didn't act or she intentionally struck and its balance. They also believe that she was not guilty to for the sake of argument you believe that the accuracy of the information and reliability of the information it They believe that she's not guilty of leaving the scene out after committing causing personal injury that also as a knowledge into it what and parsley what's going to be a little unnerving our defense team is that same information was reporting either. 8, 2, 4, 9, to 3 years highs tended to guilty on the manslaughter charge in the difference between the manslaughter charge in the murder charge is that there's no requirement that she intentionally struck John okay, no requirement that she knew she had John okay. The mere fact that she was drinking well. Talks okay didn't put in motion. The events are here in this case are cars breaking. can cause of his death isn't now. So you know that's good big converse side about this and probably causing some alarm and Karen Reid cam. >> It shows of to your point there were so many different splits they came out of the so-called reporting about what the jury decided on that it was 6, 6 for manslaughter. That was 8 for 10 2 and it's hard to know what they really were arguing about is terms of manslaughter. I want to show you this was from one of those filings according to the defense there was a juror who came forward and made this statement and they were calling that juror juror, the that Derby confirmed that he or she had texted quote it was not guilty on second degree and split in half for the second charge meaning manslaughter and it goes on to say no one thought she hit him on purpose or even knew that she had hit him. Wayne your reaction to a juror going so far as to clarify that nobody in the room thought that it was done on purpose. >> Well that does explain the outcome here are at least as it's been recounted to us because as just just talking about the ball. The other charges require intent. And you can except that she didn't do it on purpose, you can except that she might not even know that she done that. But still get to the to the second term to manslaughter. >> Want to talk about this as well we now know that the family of keep they found the civil complaint for wrongful death against not only Karen Reid also the bars that served read on the night that John o'keefe dighton tram shop allegation. The complaint alleges that the bar's owner shared responsibility with read for o'keeffe's death and in addition to this allegation lawsuit includes claims of negligent and reckless infliction of emotional distress against. Different members of John o'keefe family because of the loss of Hammond, they're naming the owners of CF mccarthy's our full bar and Grill names that we heard during this trial a Joe's of its interesting the timing of this civil case. They did wait until the first trial was over. Do you think this is a time period where they can be successful in bringing it now when we haven't gotten to an actual trial that has an outcome. >> Because the simple standard is lasting it's a preponderance of the evidence it's not proof beyond a reasonable doubt I happened to read the complaint they filed the Brockton superior courthouse right out front of my office on that day and that Prince is certainly does a lesser standard strategically I think it was very smart they have the benefit of the first trial they have the benefit wonders standing the defense strategies they have that benefit of witness testimony that's been memorializing preserved on transport. So I think they have a much better understanding of the liability issues that you would have a table typical civil case. And the interesting thing is now the discovery is going to start and how Karen reads going to try to mount a defense to put criminal case will simultaneously defending her case ourselves silly obviously she's still here if amendment protections even a civil case what I think they'll do is move to stay the civil case pending resolution of that that pending criminal still pending criminal case. >> In Wayne asking you as well about the civil lawsuit if it goes to trial. We've still got a town a county that seems divided when it comes to Karen read you think we may see a different out if it comes to a jury trial we know most civil trials in with the settlement. >> It will but a civil trial Massachusetts like that trial is not going to get rid for 3 years that in middle likely resolved long before unless you get another mistrial it So I agree with just I think the like the outcome here is that the case is going to stay until the until the criminal trial goes forward. The control long be over. The evidence produced in the criminal trial again as just suggested be available for both the plaintiffs and the defendants. Because there are certainly testimony that the defendants are going to want to rely on on that have been declared in provided and. Learn the different standard of proof it's not beyond a reasonable doubt, its proponents of the app that's you know 51%. >> to get cases going on now at the same time as we move forward. We Dennison inches across key junior stand by we have more to come is either side going to change their strategy talking about that second tree. >> While nothing to do anything different the second time around. ♪ Coming Up Next >> We'll let Karen Reads Response >> Curry was free to the only response that I was personally given was just I hit him I hit him I got to him. >> I did something out of the ordinary I'm like a black blob in the ground by the flag that morning I don't know. >> We're specifically why did I do love, but ♪ >> I do know what you've put out to the social media about this. ♪ >> Pass along to die. That's something that was the whole point of that read this okay the search >> And it was because she knew where he was. >> Yesterday during the in the entire question once you're ♪ Not once did you mention. video is. >> Actually not know. That's that we left. Correct so these came >> from all accounts he didn't do anything wrong she's a whack job. So don't So this these are your words to Proctor dish Ronald go ahead and say them. >> You were so much as a check to be as just a fine with what those moments and correct. >> Again Mister Jackson it was a poor choice of words in a joke. >> In Warren saying about them Will you say anything about you know you're on your next question so that would be an abuse. >> Protection system. Karen Reads First Trial >> Those were some of the big moments from Karen reads first trial where the prosecution laid out their case saying that she hit him she hit keep her boyfriend with her SUV and left him to die in the snow and the defense said the Karen Reid was framed by a group of can pull police officers other officials and neighbors who they say killed Sean o'keefe the trial was law and the evidence was complicated but after deliberating for 5 days. The jury sent this note to the judge. >> Judge can ony despite our rigorous efforts we continue to find ourselves at an impasse. Our perspectives on the starkly divided. Some members of the jury firmly believe that the evidence surpasses the burden of proof stab wishing the elements of the charges beyond a reasonable doubt. Others find the evidence fails to meet this standard in does not sufficiently establish the necessary elements of the charges. The deep division is not due to a lack of effort or diligence but rather a sincere adherence to our individual principals and moral convictions. To continue to deliberate would be futile and only served to force us to compromise these deeply held beliefs. I'm not going to do that to folks your services complete and declaring a mistrial in this case will be in to see you privately in a few Thank you so much for your service. >> Now because Carol Reed's first trial ended in a mistrial read her defense. The prosecution all these witnesses they have to do it all over again January 2025 as when it's slated for and that brings us to our last question of the day will Joseph Kowsky Jr and Wayne Dennison either side everything they know change their strategy at the second trial, let's bring back in are turning to understand Massachusetts prosecutions better than anyone Joseph cross King junior and Wayne Dennison are with us Joseph croskey junior, let me start with you do you think the state is going to do anything different who should they perhaps not call or call differently in the second trial. >> My criticism of the prosecution of this case as they spend much time chasing the defense strategy chasing the third-party coverage strategy on the presentation of their case. I charge the case the way they think it should be charged and present enough evidence to believe that you need necessary. The elements beyond a reasonable doubt by getting into all of these witnesses and trying to preempt the third-party outbreak. I could have the unintentional consequence. I'm giving it some validation so if I was the prosecution I would short my presentation I would cut in half. I also think what it did is it one to the impact of some of the good happens. You can't have a good critical witness. That's the by on Monday then go through 2 of 3 days of witness testimony that had to have the jury there's no scratching their heads about the relevance or significance of it so I think less is more as far as the prosecution is concerned. >> Wayne I want to ask you, but the prosecution as well what would you do different. >> Is there anything you would do differently in opening statements, but that you would. Perhaps that the prosecution didn't own until the closing arguments. >> Well I think the prosecution is going to have a little different approach here at minimum I suspect we're going to have witnesses who were better prepared. Some of these witnesses came off as if they were we're not appropriately prepared for the prosecution and certainly not prepared for that the key to which they are going to be I they were many of the witnesses were crossed vigorously by by the defense. My sense is that the there will not be a radical change in the opening statement. The opening statement again it's going to have to lay out what basic elements were here and what the prosecution believes occurred. That they may cut to the chase a little more quickly but but I think that the biggest changes we're going to see witnesses who are now more familiar having testified who have testified before more and understand the vigor with which the cross is going to come and who will be better prepared. >> Robert do you think there's any chance that they change how they handle Michael Proctor do they call him at all do they address the issues that they had to deal with not only in his direct and cross-examination but in the way that the defense characterized in their closing argument what happened in this case. >> Well I think you have to call him right, he's the chief investigative I think they need to do a better job. Protecting him look you can get out the problems with the cell phone but then move on from it. You know needs to apologize wants. But I think they need to emphasize more why did he text what he was texting what was his state of mind something that he knew about Karen really angered him to cause him to do those tax. So I think the defense and cross examine him aggressively on the text opened the door so I would have elicited much more. What was Procter state of mind. Also highlight the fact that nothing in those tests next will serve is autistic and unprofessional show that he believed that there was a cover-up a conspiracy or anyone other than Karen Reid responsible I will just say the trials are always more difficult on the defendant because you know what the prosecution case is the discovery. You don't necessarily know the defense strategy is so those gotcha moments ago to be muted wanted on a retrial they're not going to have the unforced errors when they can't Park video they're not going to have some of the questions that caught with this card so it's going to be much more difficult. Running this thing up again on the defense. >> Oh and speaking of people who have to apologize, Joseph I'm sorry that I'm this is the said your name again, but I won't get it wrong. Again. Wayne let me ask you. The defense are they're going to do anything different they had their motion to dismiss it was denied. They are going to be trying to appeal it. We may see a movement of this trial date. >> But they know now what these jurors were talking about inside of that jury room that many of them it seem like mostly the splits that we heard the majority felt that there was some culpability there. >> You and we don't know that it was the majority even. >> A clip that you paid you played earlier suggested that was a sick sick split on a manslaughter charge. Obviously you have to be a lot tend to to the the fact that their work crimes here that require intent and that there isn't very little evidence very little. Persuasive evidence that he intended to kill him or knew that she killed. So I think you get a little more attention to the manslaughter charge a little more attention around the the the drinking issues but. It's going to be the same trial for them in many many respects, yes, although quite frankly there might be less of a got to factor with Michael Proctor but he's even in the worst position as well as a witness that he was previously I'm having been dismissed as a result of the activities in this case. >> Joe's of I only have 10 seconds but could you tell me what you think the outcome of the second trial is going to be. >> I think they're going to charge her with just a manslaughter charge and I think if they do it the right way the jury's going to convict her motive vehicular homicide you why I think the evidence is overwhelming on that charge second charge. >> It's a case that has divided a really all the viewers who have been watching it seemed to be on the other side and questions continue to linger so we're going to continue to dig into this case, Joseph croskey junior and Lane Dennis and thank you for weighing in on this case for us I'm Julia. >> Today and for Vinnie politan we here at the Palace investigates are going to keep digging for the answers as the investigation continues.