Reacting to the BnR Announcement: Legacy NEEDS A Community Panel

next on Eternal [Music] dles hey I just want to give a quick shout out to all of our patreon supporters out there thank you to The dirle Maniacs if you want to be a dtl maniac go to patreon.com Eternal dles and help support the channel it keeps things going it keeps things updated thanks so much for watching on with the show so here's the thing Phil Phillip philian that's my whole name yeah uh we knew like I knew I knew in my head that we weren't going to get any changes until at least like you know early September late August right I I said that when I had Max torsion on like we knew this but why is this so absolutely disappointing like why in like I I've been on Twitter all day long talking to people retweeting you know doing the whole cycle and I did I just make myself miserable here like I I just don't get it like I didn't feel like so I definitely feel like this this card need a ban well before this right grief needed to ban well before this and the running sentiment in the community uh is that it does need a ban and we get absolutely nothing from waty aside from like oh modern Horizon 3 just came out so let's see but they also said wait till modern Horizon 3 comes out and then and then they have like what like a week and a half two weeks after the sets the sets out they're like we'll do a ban of restricted announcement like why not push that back you know I just I I don't know man like this this was like you know I where's our summer gonna go you know one thing that I I thought was interesting about the band announcement was okay they're like modern Horizon 3 is a shake up as much as a cop out as that feels it's like okay yeah there's enough experimentation going on right now that like maybe the format's a little bit different I mean we talked about it last episode where I don't think that the for mh3 is going to affect the you know or really challenge the power outliers you grief scammin nator being one of them but one thing that I'm surprised they didn't talk about was just play experience because I for all like intens and purposes I don't think that anyone would argue that uh getting rid of grief is a power level problem it's not like a um it's not doing anything that's wholly oppressive even though its win rates are extremely consistent right that that I think is like you know the the if we look at the power of the deck individually everything costs effectively zero Mana or is its own prison piece or individual threat that like can win the game on its own everything generates C cards or causes problems for the for every other type of deck that you want it like it has access to everything that it needs and it also has this like partial combo partial maybe not combo partial like very very load to ground like midrange is like very generous to this thing that has no nothing above you know a two drop um and so I think that like it's not a matter of like is it too powerful is it not even if it's posting consistent win rates but I think the thing that I really would have loved them to see is to show that they're in touch enough with the community and hear from the community enough because we've seen that they respond to community uh uh sentiment with previous Bannings they've done that many a time over right like between dread hard Arcanist and ragavan and like you know all these cards that you could theoretically argue aren't necessarily too powerful right like they're in the day's Wasteland shell and that's like what put them over the top and like grief is another example of that but a lot of it is the the the thing that all these cards have in common are like cards that more or less make it so that your play patterns or the the way that you can enjoy the game is just destroyed if you lose the die roll in a lot of games at a high enough percentage that people are like this just sucks and isn't Fun and so I I would have loved them to see them go we understand that players don't like playing against or with grief and so we're keeping very close ey on that and then and expect to make a move if that sentiment doesn't change after we let modern Horizon 3 breathe like I think that's what I would have liked to see just to show that like they do have some amount of in touch W with the community at large rather than just looking at numbers on Moto yeah this episode is brought to you by Tales of Adventure go to toam magic.com and use the code dles for 5% off your order you'll be directly supporting the show and you'll get the entire order in one package no more waiting for several packages that's toam magic.com code dles for 5% off that would have been um you know I Phil I wore this shirt on purpose you know what fix it in Pre means I sure do bro I sure do fix fix it in Pre right it means uh we don't want to have to fix it in post right we don't want to have to go if you're doing a podcast right we don't want to have to do all these like spit takes and stuff and change things and you know we like to just run a clean a clean podcast so that there's a very minimal amount of editing and you know you look at cards like grief you look at cards like Dread hard hord archinist uh OKO you know all of these things could have been fixed in Pre Phil and to that end I mean they should not have been designed you know like that's we're in a state we like I don't mind like hey make broken cards but fix them fix the problem immediately if you have to fix it in post fix it in post right but when you can so obviously fix it in Pre why don't you fix it in Pre right um my my other issue Phil is you know the format is just going to be this is all we're going to talk about for the next like two months not not us the podcast but like all the Legacy you know creators all of all of Legacy period when you go into a store it's just going to be griping about grief I I got beat by grief good way to play grief you know like I it sucks it sucks to have to be like hey our format is garbage for two months because you didn't want to take like what what is not even a risk honestly like it's just like a a maybe an assertive move to be like yeah look we've looked at data from like a week of modern Horizons and uh nothing not enough change for us to say that we should keep grief is really how that sh like the ideal situation should have been we looked at data and nothing changed in a way that made us feel like modern Horizons is going to make enough of an impact to make grief not an issue we're just gonna ban it and and that's that that that notion right there that's the thing of like not an issue and that's the issue of play experience right now if they were to go off just the things that they went off of right which they also didn't touch on but last ban announcement they said that they were keeping Eyes On bow Master for how much uh uh how much percentage of the format it was seeing play in across archetypes right so they were like we're keeping eyes on orcish bow master and to the extent that bow master has continued to be the nuisance that it was raminator got inbred and started cutting bow Masters to play more dothy void Walkers now that's inside baseball right like if you're not following along with the format to know that like where the curve like the best deck that puts up the best numbers at the highest clip is is doing so at a rate that it can start to inbreed against itself and still post those numbers and the way to do that is okay well if the only thing that bow Masters can clip in the mirror is bow Masters and then the eight can trips then why not just play the evasive faster clock that can also disrupt the graveyard where they're playing eight reanimation effects and so they started cutting bow Masters to play the doy's main now to then like I'd be curious to know if they're looking at the numbers and didn't comment on bow master in a meaningful way as saying well bow Master's numbers have gone down that's a good sign well no it's not in that like don't get me wrong I'm not I'm not AOW I'm not a bow Master Defender here but the idea that bow Masters has gone down it's not it's not because it it it has it's just because the only deck that really matters right now is itself and so they have to prioritize that in their deck building and then they can still play some number in the board if they're going to run into beanock or whatever and want that tool or you know they run into whatever they they they want access to you know the the power creep that bow Masters is but the fact that they have cut it from their main or or deprioritized it in their main in order to battle against the mirror I mean once a best deck is just like in breeding against itself I mean that's that's we've seen that before that's that's that's a Delver meta game that you can look all the way all the way back to to you know early early type two when when the thing to do in uh you know like look like flores's move uh against uh uh what's called replenish was just like dark ritual strong gold cabal you know like okay if the if the best thing to be doing that is the thing that everyone's doing and you put a card you put a series of cards in your deck that's that is better than that thing because it stops it that doesn't mean that the the the like that you've solved the problem right like the problem isn't solved the you know replenish is still bad but uh you know one guy figured out a way to be uh be in a tournament one time you know like uh and and the dothy void Walker thing reeks of that but it's but it's also parasitic because it's in the same deck you know yeah I I I I would be curious just to hear them actually speak directly about grief because they also ban when they had the opportunity to ban it in modern they chose to ban Fury instead even though everybody before that ban list was thinking that it's grief for sure and then maybe grief and fury but them leaving grief there's this I I'm not quite sure what they View grief as beneficial for since nobody seems to enjoy the play pattern of grief I haven't heard like I don't really hear much of like oh yeah grief is healthy in the way that uh like it's not the same check or tool that's NE necessary for the format to maintain some amount of balance the way that people come to the defense of force of will and Wasteland with right yeah because even though you could argue force of will or I'm sorry even though you could argue that Wasteland is still proactive because you know you can proactively go after your opponent's Mana base is they they have to have some amount of disrespect for Wasteland to begin with but you don't you can't prepare for grief out you can't just keep a seven Lander and say we've talked can't get me we have talked about the way that you have to prepare against grief which is this that your deck has to be so exorbitantly redundant that if you get forcibly Mulligan to five with pressure that your deck can still operate on on effectively low resources which means that not only does that like does D's Wasteland compress the curve but now that further compresses the curve because it means that whatever whatever card you take they're they're going to they're going to disrupt whatever that is and then backed by the day's Wasteland package means that you have to compress even further but not only do you have to compress further in order to have the tools to actually do anything that game your cards all have to do the same thing because if they can pick something apart then you're kind of [ __ ] right so the only way to really get through getting forcibly mulliganed on the on the play is to just have all of your cards all do the same thing and is that going to be all that interesting like is that really you know it's just like and at a certain point I think that there's a conversation to be had and I think this would be interesting to talk about other people in the community with too because we sort of hit these positions a lot with like these power outlier cards that are pushed by the shells that are effectively Untouchable in the format um you know it's like if we can never touch days if we can never touch Wasteland if we can never touch you know what are what are otherwise considered pillars of the format that are part of its identity if those are stuck forever and they're going to push these like really problematic outliers I'm curious how other people would find their ways to desensitize themselves to that that way they don't get frustrated for these kinds of episodes you know I remember for a while I did that with ragavan when ragavan was still in the format if somebody just had ragavan plus days I was like okay like I can't not act I can't let you hit me because the game will end so I have to throw a removal spell at it so if you have the days well that's that just you just opened some nut and I didn't have the the correct followup for the nut in which case you know it's more or less the same right if you have ragavan plus days and I have removal spell and force it's like having to turn one with h the necro dominance deck you're like all right we'll both are simplify down because the game because the game requires it otherwise it functionally ends so but like at a certain point when that happened I was just like okay this is the position that the the format is in where I don't have the option to not fire this off right so I got to fire it off so now when I get G days when I get grief scammed I always just assume that if I get griefed that the reanimate is coming and so I'm just like okay I'm going to be stripped down to like before the first grief resolves I'm thinking what are the five cards I'm going to be left with if I kept a seven right so I'm already jumping ahead and that sort of helps me desensitize to when they have the followup reanimate and it's like oh [ __ ] man like every time they always like to get to get through that like mental hurdle I just like sort of jump the jump the Gap to help me just feel as though okay it's not a problem this is just like how it goes go and this is the this is the how how we will functionally play this this game and even though that sucks it does help me like sort of um maintain being able to play through that game even if it becomes an ultimate even if it ultimately is a non-game at the end of the day it it sort of helps me like move on because I remember for a while I was checked out you we had a couple of episodes you remember that I was like I was like pretty check I do I was like this is just not interesting I'm not I'm not here for this I'm not into it and then at a certain point I was like man I really miss being able to have that sort of passion and desire and interest for like the puzzle that like I so enjoy and so I was like what is the the hurdle that's preventing me from being able to do that and a lot of it just became the things that otherwise make it so that it's impossible to do that and part of that uh to an extent is the play patterns of GRE scam but then also for my personal take was also like something like initiative and so now whenever that stuff happens I sort of just like skip that beat and just go okay that's it I'll just scoop we'll go to the next game and I won't think about that one anymore and that is like helped in a meaningful way and now anytime you see an initiative creature the table against me I just Auto scoop I'm just like not interested in like having that weigh on me mentally when I'm trying to like figure out what the next uh move to play the game or the next match or whatever it may be and I think about it now in the same way with grief scam whenever I get scammed I'm just like okay I'm getting scammed onto the next thing right and just like help me jump I wonder if other people have different ways that they get around that sort of barrier because I think a lot of this we don't I don't know if we talk about mindset all that often but I think a lot of it is mindset right like we get into these spots where these cars could just go they could just go it's like nobody's going to miss them if they go but like in the interim until they go if they go that we have to like just like embrace the problem until it goes away you know because we don't have the other option outside of just taking a break which I think is totally reasonable it's totally reasonable um but I'd be curious if if if anybody else wants to comment on on this video uh we always read all the comments and I would actually be really interested to see what other people do to like get over these mental barriers that we do because you know Zach came into this episode hot and I'll tell you before like when when we were like okay we're gonna record this today I was hot I was hot earlier when when they didn't actually show anything on the band list but I just had we had enough time between the band list announcement and US recording the episode for me to like gather my thoughts on like how did we get here how how how did we miss this thing and it's like is mh3 really just the excuse so I I i' I've gotten to this sort of head space that is sort of you know a bit relieving you know it's it's like it sort of relieves that uh that desire to rage because don't get me wrong I got it I got the desire to rage uh but it is it is it is helpful to like be in the rage space for a moment and then clear your thoughts and I'd be curious to hear what everybody else does uh if they do anything Eternal dles is proud to be sponsored by moxfield moxfield is the best magic the Gathering deck building website on the internet you can create share and find decks from Commander to Legacy and even fan supported formats like pre-modern and old school you can see all of our decks on our MOX field follow the links below to stay tuned you know Phil um you know I had that I had that interview with Blake at Philly con uh you know MC Philly and uh you know we we addressed it's a six-minute video so we'll pop it up somewhere uh and you can watch it's the last question in a six-minute video and we talked about a Legacy Community like committee right like that it is based on you know people in the community that are known Legacy players that care about the format that can at least inform uh watsy on you know times when a situation like this would be dire it would it would it would you know screw up the format for a couple months or something like that and I think my takeaway from that initially was that they said you know and I said this on Twitter today uh you know my memory of it was that Blake said oh you know popper and EDH are fan-made formats and we're never going to do a legacy one because Legacy was made by by Wy and we're not you know it's just not how it's going to happen but he did say actually he said Never Say Never um and he said that the other thing that he said that was you know and this wasn't even informed from you know the the takeaway we always have where like we we say you know rage rage uh content is something that they actually pay attention to which is often why I make this kind of content because I want them to know that like we're not happy about this like to today because I'm posting this tomorrow we did we did this on Monday it will go up early Tuesday today there will be a weekly MTG get in get in the comments get in the comments like do not like I'm not saying like you know uh start crap with them but like let them know that you're unhappy about about the way the way that they've done this if you're unhappy if you're not you're probably a sociopath I don't know what to tell you yeah but um but um the thing that I took away from that is that you know they he said that one of the things that their play design team does before they make B announcements is they do talk to the people in the community they go out there and talk to the people in the community and get a sentiment right I don't think they did that this particular time I think they were just like ah we can throw a dart at the wall on this one and say hey no big deal we just put out a new set easy pass on this one because I feel like the whole reading the entire thing it felt like they said that about every format they were like yeah Easy Pass oh we know this is a problem but easy pass because new format you know they didn't say that about Pioneer obviously they they wrote more about Pioneer because there's none of these cards can go into Pioneer but every single one of these things was like well modern Horizons just came out so you know you know and and you know fine whatever but I say all that to say this tomorrow today you know one o'clock or whenever they have the weekly MTG and I'll I have a link below so I I'll put a link to the website below for that go in there and say look Legacy needs a community uh a Community Committee we need to have that this format needs it you guys aren't paying enough attention to the community um and and it means it means so much to us and and and is such a low small lift for you to give up the give up this agency over this format that you don't obviously care that much about or or you would be putting out Legacy Masters or Legacy you know or you would care about the reserve list you know so how about how about you just give it to the people who actually do care about it you know um and you don't take every piece of advice that the popper Community uh throws down I feel like I feel like the they don't have like full control over the ban list you know we don't need knee-jerk reactions in in Legacy but we do need reactions after a long time and this has been a long time coming that this card needed to be banned uh specifically grief needed to be banned and P passing the buck on on before modern Horizons comes out and then passing the buck right after modern Horizons comes out shows me that you're out of touch in in some capacity and you know like this is a great opportunity for us as Legacy players to say hey just let can we take it back can we have it for ourselves because uh you know there are plenty of people who run who are to's out there that are running tournaments this this summer that are like great now like No One's Gonna Want to C it's just scam City so like who wants to pay $100 to come out to this hotel you know do the do the whole weekend you know you know it's it's includes you know people watching these videos and stuff whenever there is a uh complete disdain for the format uh numbers for us go down I know that uh I'm sure you know you could talk to your Bryant cooks and your BOS and rolls uh everything gets worse for like a couple of months everyone's upset that you know the salt is real and it just it just stinks so like how about how about just give us uh give us a Community Committee that's all I'm saying you've you've made me think of a a a maybe a happy medium which uh you know it's if they don't think that Legacy is worth having a panel because they feel like they have a grasp on it I think a way that they could sort of meet in the middle is to at least have whoever their people that they would at least reach out to for uh a sense of where the community's at even if it's not a full-on panel of people that they like actually will discuss things with but at least before an announcement if they already know what they're going to do to at least say or reach out to whoever would represent Legacy to go say hey team what are the things that people really really need us to hear need to hear us talk about yeah even if they're not giving any influence as to what their decisions are on those things at least it'll help translate what we want to hear from them to know that they at least have thought about the things that we want them to think about so even if if if they have no intention of banning grief because they're like we're not going to touch anything we want mh3 to like have enough breathing room to shake things up and then we'll see from there if that's even let's say it's Earnest and not passing the buck let's assume that position right sure if that's in Earnest at least then check in and be like hey team we can't tell you what we're going to do for the ban announcement but just in case we haven't talked about anything is there anything that the community does want us to talk about or refer to or give some insight or transparency about and at least then we can say you got to talk if you're not Banning G you got to talk about why not specifically you got to follow up on what you were saying about with bow Master you got to talk about like XYZ on on different pieces like you got to talk about where your thoughts are on uh urza Saga being around and knowing that every single on man artifact is just going to be tutorable off of this you know uh grave Titan that cost no Mana like you at least talk about those things and give us a sense of where your head at is at regarding its power level with relationship to the format and like the game experience that way we know that you're at least on the same page or know where the community at whole is at because the worst that can happen from transparency is just transparency that's it you don't actually have to act on any of it you can at least just let us know that we were not trying to fantasy book what's going on and thinking that like we get to these conclusions where it's like oh you must not care but if you do then that's like at least a way to extend the on branch that way you are transparent enough that we can understand and like I I think that that would be a happy medium they don't have to give up their agency but they can at least talk to us here's here the other thing Phil is is had I known four months ago that they weren't going to ban grief two months ago and then they weren't going to ban grief today I'd have bought four griefs you know back then and I'd be playing it you know I would I would have spent money you know I would have been like okay well if this is the best thing to do and I've got six months to do it I guess I'll do that you know but when we live in this limbo world where we don't know when a B is going to come like specifically when a ban is going to come not like when the ban announcement is right we just like we're all holding our breath waiting for the thing to happen and we can't we can't make purchases based on that you know uh I don't think that's something that's spoken about enough is it like you know would I be a villain for a couple of months yeah but like play the best deck obviously right like sure and if it gets banned you know if it had gotten banned two months ago and I had just bought them I'd have been UPS set if i' have bought them after the last ban I would have been I would have been like okay today it gets banned like I I knew what I was doing right like I knew I was sure that like I spent that $60 on the four griefs and I knew that like I had a limited amount of time with them right now I'm like oh great well like they're defin like in my head I'm like they're definitely gonna ban this I don't even want to spend time trying to play this card right I don't want to buy it right um and I I wouldn't at this point same thing with Bowman Masters like I was tell I was telling you before I own two bow Masters I only own two and I and I uh I'm messing around numbers right now to trying to try and make that work in in the Decks that I'm playing because I don't think bow Masters is actually as good as it has been lately I think I think you're going to catch people with it still the fact that it exists in the format is enough to dissuade people from from playing uh like they used to play so you're not going to catch as many people that influence is also IND right so naturally like if bow Master numbers go down it's not necessarily a reflection of it not being as powerful as it is it might be a reflection of oh this is an oppressive force that requires certain deck building to make it so that isn't it isn't as effective right which is just format sweeping that's format overhauling so like even if the numbers don't reflect it if every deck is has to build itself with it in mind that's the same way that you have to build every single deck that you play with days and Wasteland in mind right it's it is a format over card even if it doesn't necessarily show up at the numbers that would represent a card of that kind of power level you know all right well I think I think we've uh we've put enough air into the room about this um what do you think uh again please please go tomorrow I I'm gonna put that link below to to whatever their twitch Channel or their YouTube channel is that they do that um if you're watching this video just be ready get in get in there go in the comments and let them know that you're a legacy player and you're unhappy with no changes you know you're unhappy with the amount of information that we've been given on on the bands let them know uh let just you know again respectfully but make your voice heard because I think that they don't think that enough people play Legacy that they have to care that much like one more one more random thing I need to say I would have if I was involved in that in any weight chamber form you would have gotten four sentences from me you would have gotten You' have gotten a lot of information I think that that if they would take the time as like they're affecting so many people write 20 sentences about what's going on that's the least you can do if you're gonna affect a format in any way shape or form and no change is a change you know uh or no changes at least affecting the format you need to write out why you know I want a dissertation you know and I don't think that's too much to ask I think that everyone would appreciate a little bit more transparency so uh with that said Phil uh I want to remind everybody that they can support us on patreon at Eternal dles uh sorry patreon.com Eternal dles uh please like subscribe and if you can share this you probably came to it via Twitter hit the ret hit the retweet button or whatever um and yeah we'll have another episode out a little later this week but uh had to do this one real fast so uh thanks everybody for watching and we'll catch you next time before you go I need some help please subscribe to this Channel and do your part to help sustain the Legacy content ecosystem just subscribing to this channel goes a long way to reminding YouTube that people love and support this format now if you really want to go the extra mile you should think about supporting us through patreon both the links for subscription and patreon are right here and if you're listening on an audio format you can go to patreon.com Eternal dles thanks so much for watching