Speculating the B&R announcements #mtglegacy

what you're about to see are two possible futures for legacy next on Eternal Turtles this episode is supported by our dtl Maniacs who enjoy AdFree content as well as bonus content that can be found either on patreon Spotify or YouTube if you're thinking about supporting the show we'd really appreciate it and you can find us on any of those mediums what it do hello and welcome to Eternal dles I'm your host Zack Clark and with me always Phil Blackman Phil how's it going man so Zach told me not to talk about sensei's divining top this episode so we're not going to do that well I mean as as a creature as like maybe an otter or like a lizard or a frog sure um but what we what we want to do here so uh I have chosen a uh specific possible future uh for uh a ban announcement in August uh and then we have uh what we think is probably the most likely future and then Phil is actually going to send me his future Phil's future is going to be a listener exclusive uh on the patreon so if you're uh interested in seeing what Phil's uh Phil's futur is that doesn't include sensation divining top uh uh you can subscribe to our patreon and check that out as well but what we've got here is uh you know a little filler uh this is just a kind of a fun episode where uh I have created uh two ban announcements and we kind of talk about like you know what happens with these two possible ban Ann announcement so it's like I said this is completely like fictional this did not actually happen what I'm about to read to you is going to sound very real um but don't don't spread lies on the internet about about what's going to be happening here Eternal dles is proud to be sponsored by moxfield moxfield is the best magic the Gathering deck buing website on the internet you can create share and find decks from Commander to Legacy and even fan supported formats like pre-modern and old school you can see all of our decks on our MOX field follow the links below to stay tuned all right so uh my uh announcement is as follows Phil we're gonna have you react to it all right here we go Phil they finally did it uh this is the ban announcement for uh for the August ban and restricted list for legacy I'm just going to read it out to you and uh I want you to react to it with with me in real time here uh grief is banned in is banned orcish bow Masters is banned up the beant stock is banned all right and here is the uh here is the announcement in recent months these cards have contributed to strategies that are overly dominant and reduce the diversity of the Legacy format our primary goal is today is to foster a dynamic metag game where a wide variety of decks can compete and Thrive grief has proven to be an excessively powerful enabler in multiple archetypes allowing for disruptive plays that are difficult to recover from particularly in in combination with reanimation targets its present has led to an unhealthy imbalance and we believe Banning it will help restore competitive diversity in TB has long been a staple of in various graveyard based strategies but its efficiency and the power level of targets it enables have continued to grow with the addition of newer more potent reanimation targets inum has been pushed uh has pushed these strategies to an untenable level Banning in Tomb is a step towards mitigating the dominance of graveyard Centric decks orcish bow Masters has rapidly become a ubiquitous threat across multiple archetypes offering both disruption and a powerful clock in one card its versatility and efficiency have made it a staple in too many top tier decks stifling Innovation and diversity by Banning orcish bow Masters we aim to open up the metag game and encourage a broader range of strategies up the bean stock has enabled explosive and consistent draw engines that have proven difficult to interact with its ability to fuel It's ability to fuel where we at here uh It's ability to fuel a variety of control decks and mid-range decks has pushed it beyond the Beyond a healthy power level for legacy removing up the bean stock from the format will help curve these strategies and promote a more interactive balanced play environment we recognize that these changes may have significant impacts on the current metag game but we believe they are necessary to maintain the long-term health of Legacy we will continue to monitor the format closely to make sure adjust to make adjustments as needed to ensure it remains Dynamic and enjoyable for players it's been exciting to see the development of new archetypes and evolutions of the exist of existing ones including the rise of decks like uh El the new eldrazi deck and the Nadu deck as well as uh death and taxes and reanimator sorry chat gbt wrote a lot of this uh we look forward to uh seeing how the metag game adapts and what Innovative strategies emerge in the wake of these uh changes thank you for your continued passion and support for uh for Magic Gathering happy brewing and we look forward to seeing you at Eternal weekend Phil what's your takeaway here uh Banning uh Banning grief and tomb orcish pro masters and up the beanock uh oh do we not have a Phill I think the I think that this is the reality that we would like to live in and I actually don't think that they went far enough I think öa Saga and D should have also joined them on the Ben L but let's get into uh what they actually did do everybody agrees grief needed to go if like the one thing that I think that isn't talked about enough when it regarding grief and its need to not exist anymore is the fact that you get not only to strip the cars at uh card parody and have an evasive threat on the table uh before your opponent gets to take a game action but the information that is given for zero Mana is also something that we have only ever seen broken before now it doesn't broken with what card specifically another free card yeah it's not often that grief and dxi probe are uh like related to each other but I think that the free information being able to dictate a game that isn't going to last for very many turns just is such a lopsided Advantage at no cost that it it actually is just in the aggregate an effect that is too powerful at no Mana like if you like you have that effect at thought seas and other discard spells to get that information but that's your turn but fact that you can get free information and then also be able to play your turn around that free information is actually too good when the power level of the format is where it's at so it's not talked about enough because the gameplay is usually just like okay we both Mulligan a bunch but you have the upper hand but it's not only we Mulligan a bunch down to nothing and and that player has the upper hand they also have perfect information and they have perfect information that is unlikely to change because they stripped all the things that would otherwise have changed it so I don't think we need to argue or debate whether or not grief needed to go I think every but he's happy to see it gone now I'm happy that they had the foresight to get rid of bow Masters because before um when everybody was playing with bow Masters and it was eclipsed 40% of the metag game which is more than enough that got deathro Shaman banned if we recall but orish bow Master eclipsed 40% and it was only trending upward and then once people got like the the bow Master on bow Master uh out of their system to a degree then scam started to like reveal itself as the best deck and people started refining that uh that archetype and then bow Master fell off once the format was so inbred and needed to beat scam mirrors orcus bow master was soft in the scam mirrors and so because of that bone Master's trajectory went down but it didn't go down for anything other than the fact that um scam was it was not great against the best deck that was also playing it it it was not great against the best deck and then the best deck got an additional upgrade in psychic frog and I and I noticed that psychic frog has been taking a lot of heat as a card that should be considered for the ban list ever since it's printing in modern Horizon 3 because popped up the best deck but I I think that like if we were to look at the the the means for answering uh frog are a plenty like before like I get that like there's always going to be like the snowbally threats that are protected by counter magic but if we just think about like what the cars do in the aggregate like if you put a a a frog on the table even though it does a lot of things and it's going to control a lot of parts of the of the board both in combat and it's a snowball threat that can run away with the game uh and that changes based on the deck that is playing against the fact that you actually do need to untap and connect on and it's not a single Mana threat so it's not like it's backed up by days on turn one the way ragavan was yeah the the idea that like yes it does like yes maybe bolt is not in its Heyday and for the first time ever people would consider playing less than four bolt because psychic frog exists but the fact that you get to untap against a psychic frog and interact with it before it actually Acres the advantage that it otherwise would AC I think means that it's actually a healthier card and one of the health like maybe not as healthy in terms of like what it it is uh promoting which is like a best deck that is being proit up by all these other things but I don't think that it's in the same space of degenerate card that's too powerful uh it's similar in in I don't want to drop to of course but I think psychic frog is getting a lot of heat just because it's the new card that's in the top deck but if grief went and not bow master I think bow Master would prop up and then just annihilate a bunch of things that would otherwise get to see play but bow Master can't the the joke with bow master was always like oh does that have one toughness it's unplayable in this format right like like bow Master just obsoleting those kinds of cards like think back to renin six we've we've had this conversation before but even even if it wasn't just the the deal of damage and and eliminate X ones from the format other than itself and the best answer to a bow Master is a bow Master which only inbreeds it being ubiquitous the other thing that it prompts that like if we just think about how insane of a raid it is if you catch a single can trip right one draw one addition n damage that's nine damage immediately from anything from anything like like like a brainstorm is nine damage sorry if I if I crack a clue right if I if I just incidentally crack a clue to draw one card a bow Master deals five damage yeah right it's it's the initial ping it's the body and the extra yeah and the extra Ping On The draw now I don't think that you should get two Mana splashable at a rate that's oppressing a bunch of cards out of the and then also get better than a flame Rift off a single card draw yeah right like if you catch the brainstorm and go go berserk cool you caught you caught brainstorm sure but like catching literally any can trip and that just translates to five damage if not contended with immediately is way too steep that's just like that's just like unacceptable of a rate regardless of anything else like it bow master in my view is a mistake I get that people want ways to punish cantrips if if we all agree that there should be more punishment for cantrips that outside of literally all of the cards that exist in in the format right now that have punished CPS before whether that's leovold or Spirit of the labyrinth or um Chalice of avoid making so that you can't cast your stuff anyway um or Thalia taxing those cans and making it so that they're at a rate that isn't playable um like aside from all that like if none of that stuff is good enough anymore I think it's okay for Watley to to print stuff that taxes or punishes cantrips but not at this rate I think b a bit over the top yeah it's over the top so I think it's okay that bow Master goes I'm happy to see it Go nobody nobody should lose sleep over it well let's let's move on to inum because inum is kind of a Dark Horse pick huh well I remember people talking about in tumb getting banned because it had been previously banned so it's not unprecedented for it to be banned I think that honestly I think that reanimate should probably should have been the card to go because in in Tomb does do things like I get that obviously it's it's a main stay in reanimator and that's like primarily where you find it but there is some amount of Brewing interest that inum can enable by like echo on in the board into the yard or uh dumping life from the LOM into the yard or you know there there there are other things that like you can do that reanimate really just can't do because if you were trying to do something like oh but Phil you could reanimate like uh cheaper creatures too it's not always just ATT tracks and Grizzle brand that can put into play well it's like you have une Earth for that right like you have other single band of spells you have alternatives to do that kind of gameplay but that's just not the kind of gameplay that reanimates promoting so reanimate is the only thing that it does for the rate that it does it where you have animate dead and Exum and like if if you moved the okay you can put whatever you want into play with no additional cost at just like it two Mana is the minimum because reanimate is the only effect in the game that otherwise does it at one then I think it's okay to be like this is the bar for acceptable power level and Legacy of a re a reanimation effect with no other downside um because like the cost of life in reanimate is fine if you can like check their life total before they can get off but the reanimation decks are putting it into play on turn one and turn two and the card advantage that they acrew from putting that into play is insurmountable it doesn't matter the amount of life that you lost yeah I think my my take on on the inun Banning is like you know it's it's what we were saying before about a lot of other cards during our big damn unban episode at the beginning of the year um this card doesn't do anything that isn't already like it Banning it or unbanning it you know whatever um really my take is like it's not doing anything interesting like we know what you're gonna do you know oh you're putting Echo Vons in your graveyard I'm I'm not surprised you know like it doesn't it doesn't make the format more interesting is is what I'm saying so I'm not again I'm not sad to see it go either um what do you think about up the bean stock I think I I'm surprised that they ban up the bean stock don't get me wrong I think it's the correct right yeah I I think it's the correct call to to be you know more more aggressive with Banning those types of engines I guess that they have bandit in modern and that there's clearly even though they haven't directly spec like said anything about how they're trying to change the the identities of the format differently so that way modern isn't just diet Legacy so you see things like renin six and ragavan and expressive iteration are all legal in Legacy and underworld breach is legal in modern where I'm sorry they're all legal in modern where they're not legal in Legacy where then uh of the Beanstalk is banned in modern but it's legal in Legacy and so they're trying to differentiate these formats Enough by the different tools essentially by Banning by curating their respective ban lists um because all these cards could you could argue in either format are too good and should all go uh but they did like up the bean stock was too good in modern and I would argue that it is also too good for legacy not in that like okay yes you can check the beanock like the beanock decks aren't like all agreed upon on what necessarily the best version is the best version of the beanock decks are the day's Wasteland versions like just you look at results like that's just uncontested like you do have some amount of like your uh line Gil pack style beanock that do put up results but like those fall more into the camp of oh those are the outlier Decks that make the top eights not like the expected uh contenders in the top eight where like Shai bean stock of playing D's Wasteland would be an expected Contender I think that like what up the bean stalk does is similar to other cards that just compress the aggro combo control uh Trifecta of what would make for a healthy metag game incl and throw mid-range in there one thing that up the beanock does is means that you can't play a control deck otherwise without up the bean St like it compels you to play this card if you want to play anything that's revolving around this entire macro type that that uh builds a format well I think I think something that you know wasn't included in this write up as well is that like this would be the next deck to go to like this would be the next best deck right they're knocking down the top two decks immediately they're like okay no more scam no more beanock control right figure something else out we're playing in a new meta game I I I I actually disagree I I think that Delver yeah well well I know I mean you you could argue that it would be the the next best deck it would be one of the next best decks the the card that is like conspicuously absent to me I like we're not going to get into days I get that it's like format identity card like we're never getting rid of it whatever I I'll get off of it but like I am we like we the the world needs to take a look at ö Saga like ö Saga is definitively an IND visual pillar of the format and it not being mentioned at all mention okay like you want you want you want to leave it in modern you want to leave it modern and differentiate the formats okay sure fine leave it in modern but like it is way too good in Legacy like every I I've mentioned this before and we did it in the in the our our debate but ö every urza Saga deck is facading that it's something else right every osaga deck is an uraka deck first and then it's it's whatever it's doing after osaga is always the primary thing that it's doing because it's more powerful than anything else going on but it's like oh it's in the painter decks but like painter is the one that's getting the headline so it's the combo it's the painter combo no it's not it's an Osaka Beatdown deck that just happens to have a combo finish that it can two to for because it's incidental because osaga puts it on the table for free osaga is way too good way way way too good and the fact that it wasn't mentioned at all amongst these cards like these cards going the next best thing is just osaga just play osaga it's unbelievable to me that they didn't even mention it crazy it's like it's like some AI wrote this uh wrote this uh announcement or something even furthermore let's say let's hypothetically say that AI did write this thing right yeah if AI did write this thing AI is is is scraping from what's written on the internet for what for to in order to like you know produce its voice right yeah okay well if it's doing that and it's scraping from the internet and then didn't even mention ö Saga then that means that there isn't enough on the on the internet for the AR to even pull from that's mindboggling to me Fam what are we doing as a community to be like yeah or is ö Saga is totally fine like I get if you play with ö Saka and you have results with Z Saga and you don't want to see it Go sure but like we have to all agree that like I mean if it were printed in the time of Taran acad M Workshop or uh uh bizar Bagdad it would just be in the echelon of those best lands ever and it would not even it would be like not even rational to think about it it is getting modern day uh designed by us for sure if this thing if that thing were printed in 2002 everybody would have lost their and been like this is so un unbelievably powerful it's got to go immediately it would it would it would be it would have been banned for 20 years all right uh so uh you know back back to reality uh so that was one possible reality of of uh a ban a ban list announcement right uh that is the I I I would say that is the uh 10% bracket of like they went crazy and like decided that they were going to make a statement about the whole format right what's more likely is is this next scenario Phil so uh here we go Phil they finally did it we have a ban announcement for legacy just just coming in so that we're all it's all in time for uh Eternal weekend here's the announcement Legacy grief is baned hard stop no other bands grief is consistently proven to be ex an excessively powerful enabler and multiple archetypes particularly in combination with reanimator strategies it's a to disrupt opponents plans early in the game has led to an unhealthy imbalance in the Legacy format by Banning grief we aim to restore competitive diversity and create more enjoyable experience for all players we also want to address the community's concerns regarding the impact of orcish bow Masters and of the beanock in Legacy format while these cards were not being banned at this time we acknowledge that they are on the edge of becoming problematic and the team is closely monitoring their per performance and influence on the metag game should further data and Community feedback indicate that these cards have are having a detrimental effect on the format we will not hesitate to take additional action our primary goal is to foster a dynamic metagame and while there is a wide variety of decks that can compete and where there is a wide variety of decks that can compete and Thrive we recognize the challenges in maintaining a balanced format and appreci appreciate your patience and understanding as we work to keep Legacy healthy and VI vibrant it's been exciting to see the development of new archetypes and evolutions of existing ones we look forward to seeing how the metag game adapts and what Innovative strategies emerge during Eternal weekend this year thank you for your continued passion and support for Magic the Gathering happy brewing and have a good one the magic the Gathering team what do you think of this they just mentioned those other two cards no no mention of uh of in Tomb at all uh do you think this is a more likely scenario I do think this is a more likely scenario I think that they're going to play extremely conservative um they have shown that they are willing to take uh hammers to younger formats they've done it in standard before but they haven't done it in Legacy so it would be a paradigm shift to dat that I think it would be a whole new precedent uh I think this is more likely what we're going to see is they're just going to give the community what they've been asking for uh months too late and that's going to be it and we're all going to be satisfied uh because even though they did give us what we want they didn't go far enough because now we know the format that we're going to go into before Eternal weekend and it's just going to be a lot of what we have been dispached with before more of the same yeah I think uh you know in in these two in these two scenarios you know we we look at uh the the first scenario is it Delver you know is it X Delver is is the way to go right you play your necro or whatever you know nether go uh in grixis or you play by uh the uh the Dr questing Druid uh in green uh and the deck the go-to deck feels like in a scenario where you take out bead stock and you take out grief you just play Delver right here I think you know I I mean I'm I'm obviously gonna continue playing up the beanock if they don't ban it right so I I go with up the bean stock uh you know I I'm sure you'll go with Miracles but what do you think the best deck is in a scenario where they just ban grief the best deck I think is just uh grixis Delver again we just go back to or the actually the the there's another deck that has been propping up that I think is going to see a bunch of play too which is because psychic frog is now exists in the format and part of that means that lightning bolt has gotten worse um people have have have actively started cutting the number of lightning bolts or at least discussing how many lightning bolts they should cut if they should play it at all because it can't beat a psychic frog that death Shadow so you could play some variation of death Shadow what I actually think is if you go and look at what players have been playing with uh experimenting is essentially blue black Canadian threshold because yeah there's there's now a Canadian thresh deck that if you were to just look at uh it you can just do two side by sides Canadian thresh of how we knew it between tago and Mongoose M now it's the exact same Spell suite right yeah D Wasteland all of the same spells except the threats have upgraded so now your ues instead of costing two cost one and are recursive you have uh merde Regent and frog yeah mer region so so you just play all of the good all of the push blue black cards that they've given you over time and you just compress it into the Delver shell and now that's this is the best deck like that will that and or grixis Delver splashing for effectively death uh death uh dragon rage Channeler and like pyr blast and like Molton collapse and things like that as a ways to deal with merti and psychic frog that will defo for sure be the best deck and it won't be close and it's unfortunate because we've seen that play pattern a bunch of Jay's Wasteland just propping to the top it will continue to be at the top because we didn't actually do anything to check that uh play pattern so here we are all right well uh so that is that is uh two possible Futures right uh you you have the uh and in both Futures it looks like Delver is still the best de the the deck to play like if if you were to choose a deck to do well with at aernal weekend in either one of these scenarios Delver seems like the way to go or some variation of of that Tempo style deck um what do you think uh in in the comments uh you know what you what do you think will actually get banned versus what do you want to get banned right we're coming up it's what two weeks away until this announcement it's almost like Christmas you know like I'm just I'm having trouble sleeping you know uh I think it'll be interesting to see what actually happens and if they if they squander this summer and only ban grief that's going to be a bit disappointing but if they do something a little further maybe even some unban right uh you know maybe EarthCraft gets unbanned finally right shout outs to Doula uh uh maybe maybe they unban EarthCraft maybe they unban Mana drain you know uh something something on that level it'd be interesting to see them do something that shakes the format up more than just like yeah this is a problem here's another patch that we put over the format for like a couple of days you know until someone figures out the next thing that everyone's going to move to because now it just seems like every like 51% of the meta is just whatever the best deck is now like everyone's just like I'm just gonna sh Shuffle up to the next best deck so I I'd like to see some something a little more than that what do you think Phil yeah I think D's Wasteland is just going to be the best thing as it's always been uh I think that like we're just gonna like I I we've already crossed the paradigm I think we need to like there needs to be an actual like foundational change like a structural change because this will just be the the same pattern that it's been and they if they don't acknowledge it or take action against it then we run into the same problem over and over and over again and we're only going to run into the same problem over and over and over again but in a way that is steeper it's going to be exacerbated because each iteration that they print something new that's more powerful it's more powerful than the previous thing and so it's going to be felt harder and harder and every every time so like either they change the foundation and actually shake up the structure or we just keep running into this and then we lose players over it I agree uh I think that if you're going to yeah if if if you're gonna just continue to put Band-Aids on like we're gonna end up losing a lot of players so I think I think one of these scenarios uh feels certainly better than the other one to me uh but in the uh in the extra show in the extra Dural show uh we will be going over one more the one that uh Phil has chosen as as his his Preferred Future uh and uh yeah so we'll check that out uh if uh if uh anybody wants to uh check that out you can go to patreon.com terminal Turtles and again please do not tell people that this is what happened or that we're you know like we lied to everybody and said this is what it is th this is just a fun alternate future kind of thing maybe some guesses possible predictions but this is not real these are not real uh things uh and to that end like I said this is just a uh have fun during the downtime episode uh so uh anyhow thank you everyone for watching and uh we will catch you soon thanks before you go I need some help please subscribe to this Channel and do your part to help sustain the Legacy content ecosystem just subscribing to this channel goes a long way to reminding YouTube that people love and support support this format now if you really want to go the extra mile you should think about supporting us through patreon both the links for subscription and patreon are right here and if you're listening on an audio format you can go to patreon.com Eternal dles thanks so much for watching