An Alternative to the Incoming Ban Announcement #mtglegacy

an alternative solution to ban announcements next on Eternal dles this episode is supported by our derle Maniacs who enjoy adree content as well as bonus content that can be found either on patreon Spotify or YouTube if you're thinking about supporting the show we'd really appreciate it and you can find us on any of those mediums what it do hello and welcome to Eternal Turtles I'm your host Zach Clark and with me as always Phil bman Phil how's it going man Zach I'm going through some sound issues so I have to make out with my mic in order for you to hear me and I hope everybody enjoys uh essentially I'm I'm I'm it's not a clown nose it's a clown it's a clown mask yeah well you were you were just about to ask me uh what about something something a like a band list thing what was that so so everybody wants everybody either has a strong opinion about a legacy panel right some people are like yeah a legacy panel that'd be great need some s of moderation for the format because watsi uh is really bad at this or everybody's like no we definitely don't need a legacy panel wouldn't even trust anybody who wanted to be on it there's no way anybody can be entrusted with that kind of power or influence over the format so I am proposing a medium in between those two things which is a approximate 3ish month trial period where they can say this card is banned from this date to this date and upon the second date we will look we will evaluate the data of those three months where it was banned and get community feedback as to whether or not people enjoy the format more or less with that card no longer there essentially do a trial run for cards getting banned or not banned or uh even cards that are un to unban cards give us some trial periods uh I proposed this to people at my local and uh a bunch of response that I got was yes that sounds exciting let's try some stuff let's switch it up let's let's try new things let's let us let us experiment let's not just do things the way that they've always been because we always run into the exact same problem over and over and over again and then you and I have to record the same kind of episode you know for the eighth time in a year because the the watsi just runs into the same rake every time yeah uh but then the other feedback that I got on this idea was no it'll be too complicated it it'll just be too difficult for people to understand what is and what isn't legal and all this stuff and I'm like all right well then those people got to got to figure it out yeah my my feedback is like it's too complicated there's just no way the amount of cards that are added to the format every single day yeah and we're worried that like oh one card like people won't be able to be like understand that one card for legacy which is like if you're playing Legacy you're pretty entrenched I don't I don't think that there's anybody who's like playing Legacy who's like I I can't I just can't follow this format it's just the ban list is just all over the place it's too difficult to follow like I have never heard anyone in our circles say that and anybody who's playing casually enough wouldn't care Eternal dles is proud to be sponsored by moxfield moxfield is the best magic the Gathering deck boting website on the internet you can create share and find decks from Commander to Legacy and even fan supported formats like premodern in old school you can see all of our decks on our MOX field follow the links below to stay tuned yeah well so I have I have I have a couple responses to that so first response is to your uh pe people's opinion about uh a Legacy Community panel and this is always my response when people are like well they can't have cart blanch and then they'll get to chw influencers will be choosing what cards to get banned and one that's actually not that bad of an idea uh even if it was like at least it would be interesting you know uh and and I would even take someone like you know like let's see a worst case scenario where like Bryant cook like bans fluster storm and days and force of will or something you know like at least it would be interesting for a minute right but here's the thing uh and I will get to the second half of your of your statement in a second but I I really want to Bear down on this whole like influencers will be choosing what gets banned they do that in in popper there is a popper Community panel and quote unquote influencers some of them are are popper influencers get to get to help make these decisions the big word there help they don't have cart blanch they don't just get to choose what gets banned they discuss it on a panel with other poer players and waty and at the end of the day watsy can do the same thing that it does to the guy that they pay to like to be on the band restricted like panel in at swy they can just ignore us right they've proven that they will do it to someone they pay I'm positive they will do it to somebody that they don't pay but here's the thing is to me like I I the noise of like I don't want influencers choosing the cards I like fine go away like if you don't want people that care about the format enough to like put out content constantly about the format like I If if you guys think we're getting rich off of making Legacy Magic the Gathering which is like such a neat inside a niche inside a niche content you're out of your minds I'm not going to make the format worse for clicks it's just not a thing I I could ever do and I would in in a heartbeat I would be glad to be on that panel I'd be honored to be on that panel that said let's move on to the uh the rotate the like rotating band list thing you were talking about so let let me let me reframe what you what you just said real fast about that first so that we can uh that anybody listening to be rant for the last five minutes remembers what you were talking about right so what you want to do is say here our car like waty will be like we're gonna preliminarily ban like let's say grief and bow Masters for three months and then revisit them and uh with data in three months uh and decide whether or not we want to put those on the forever band list so there's sort of like a a pipeline maybe band list right yeah essentially it's the right now there are some cars that are supposedly the you know sacred cows can never get touched but are obvious problems that cause yeah you know the breaking of several other cards or or pressors of the format that obsolete you know other cards from being able to exist in any meaningful way and I think it would be interesting instead of being like nope this can never be touched we just have to live with this disease if we're like hey what if we had a cure for three months let's just feel it out let's see how it goes and then if people like it or don't like it I think I I mean what I you know everybody the the argument that we had last time around de is do you view de as uh a villain or a hero and every some people look at some people hero like hey if you don't have days then combo runs rampant and then some people are like well days like I'm I'm on I'm on this side of the camp days obsoletes you know three drops from seeing play and all of this all of this like the every premise that we have put up so far in this episode is based on this one thing that Wizards of the Coast is responsible enough to use data correctly to uh to make those decisions and they have proven time and time again that they're not Phil so what would happen in in my brain I I like the idea and and in a perfect world where uh watsi does use data and makes responsible decisions based on data I would say 100% I'm in but in practice what's going to happen and this is what happened with the like the pioneer like watch warning thing is they they they basically extended the the ban time of cards by about three months they would be like oh we're thinking about banning this it's on the watch list right and then they just banned it in three months every time they weren't like oh the data shows that like things have changed you're like no we're just gonna ban it um now the there's two reasons why that's the case because everybody that sees that and this is sort of the opposite version of what you're what you're asking but every everybody that sees that uh I think it was like inverter of Truth is on The Chopping Block like literally head on the Block about ready to be banned in three months right everyone goes this is our last chance to play this card which spikes the numbers right everyone's like I gotta play this card before it gets banned right and then uh and because like wat's basically saying hey this is the best deck right this is the best deck you should play this deck right so that that is the read between the lines part of part part of that style of announcement right um which again like I said it's not the it's the exact reverse of what you're what you're asking for now uh that has the unintended effect of creating uh incorrect data right like everyone's gonna play it because waty just said like hey this is gonna get banned it's one it's one it's your last chance two it's the best possible thing you could be doing right so everybody goes and does that and then they make that they they don't need to even look at the data they're just like yeah everyone's literally playing this deck so we have to stop that now to go to your version of of the thing which is sort of the opposite they we announced that this card is going to be banned for three months and we see if the meta uh if the meta can handle that banning right like so in in a world where we decide okay is Dave the hero or the villain right I love this idea because it to me like that that like right now in this dead time of of like the middle of the summer to to Eternal weekend would be a great time every year for them to be like we're just G to try something experimental and say like this one card is banned from the format for three months we can guarantee you if the meta shifts in a way that we think is not okay we will bring it back right so if if perfect scenario is like if days goes away and then combo runs rampant like it's 50 1% of the meta is like storm or something like that right or you just just whatever combo decks right they're like oh yeah that was a mistake and we bring it back before Eternal weekend and give everybody you know enough time to figure everything out like three months like let's say a like from from June to late August is is enough time for everyone to say here's the data from that and then from August to December is plenty of time for everyone to Pivot and decide if they're going to play whatever deck they want I love this idea I do not trust wats to pull it off correctly I I think that uh they're well in the people on that on like merer and whatnot well intentioned but I don't think they have the autonomy to make those decisions I think a lot of those decisions are made above them and they just get to comment on them or uh they at least get to uh you know they get to uh put their argument up to to the people that actually make these decisions right and so I think that is that is the actual issue um but I like I said I I think I think I think what you have there is is the beginnings of a really cool idea and I wish that they would uh I wish they would try something like that I just don't think they have the coones to pull it off I think it would actually make their life easier I do too and I think it would make their life easier in a way that they have said that Legacy is a format where they listen to community feedback uh for their decision-making now they haven't proven to do that really uh I mean but I believe that if we get one at least one day before uh August 22 they ban grief I will believe that statement if we get it early grief ban so I want to point out that they didn't do it this time like they didn't listen this time but theyve more or less listened every other time we've got like people have gotten loud enough yeah like they they they aren't looking at like they have banned cards for a whole plethora of different reasons and they're banning decisions are entirely inconsistent like the the reason that cards get banned are for different reasons all the time that is not part of how they're like this is the stuff this is the criteria that we look at as to whether or not a card is okay or not okay like the the discrepancy of power level between cards like a lot of cards are on the band list for other card sins right but we never look at the other cards that are the the the real Sinners and I think that having the an opportunity to not say okay we we're Banning now we're flip-flopping because we actually didn't want to do that you know the only time theyve in any format that they've banned and unbanned a card where it was like okay we're gonna ban it we know that it's probably not going to work out but we're going to test it out and see it anyway is like uh golgari grave troll in mod right where they they it was banned and then they unbanned it and then reband it yeah immediately like they were like who H is problem what yeah because what did you think was going to happen but for for other cards like there are plenty of cards on the leg on the Legacy band list that have easily been power creeped out like for sure been power creeped out but they're still on the band list but they could say hey for the next three months we're going to unban this card and see how it goes and if it's too much of a burden then we'll get rid of it again same thing for cards that they want that they would like to touch so for example if they're like you know we actually don't want to pull the trigger on Grief just yet well they can say hey from now until this date grief's banned and then we'll come back and and we'll either keep it B we'll make another decision so essentially they get to delay their official decision right so they don't have to take responsibility for our decision which they clearly don't seem to want to do in in in an aggressive way so they can give everybody what they want without actually having to take a position stand and then when the time comes they can take a position stand with a whole bunch of feedback from the other side of the of the coin Phil I think this is a great it it it works best with cards that we think are the problem but aren't sure right like we think D is the problem like you and I know days is the problem but if you think da is the problem but you aren't sure ban it get the data see if that works right with a card like I want I want to point out that for for something like that too it's not just to see if it's the problem it's also to see what its absence does like the the the the everybody has like their own fictitious ideas a of what getting rid of a card like days would do to the format and nobody nobody actually knows zero people actually know you and I don't know anybody else who has a strong opinion on it doesn't know nobody knows because we've never done it it's never been we have never experimented with it ever and so anybody who's like this is what would happen nobody actually knows but man sure would be nice if we could just have a three-month trial period to test it out and you know what three months for legacy it's going to go by fast you know what's going to happen people who have ders when they unban it in three months if they're like nope we actually do like as part of the identity of format whatever we've gotten that experiment out of the way and now we can always reference that experiment that we did anytime this comes up we now have historical proof that until the format is overhauled with modern Horizons 12 we we we don't have to worry about this ever again when anybody brings it up because we can just say hey remember that three-month period when [ __ ] hit the fan and nobody liked it and the format almost died or whatever the [ __ ] or they could be like hey remember when everybody loved the format more than ever when we got rid of the diseases yeah maybe over the top Zack maybe I'm to over the top I I think what you're asking for is is radical uh in in more ways than one uh and more ways than my shirt is radical um but uh but I think I think it's a great it's a great idea that I just don't have I have zero faith that Wizards could handle uh handle implementing it properly yeah I feel like they refuse they refuse to listen to data they're ref used to listen to the players and like we're it's such a small player base it would be Legacy would be the smartest one to start out with right because you could say hey we're gonna listen to The Players we're gonna listen to the data we get we get like the 12 tournaments a week probably at most that happen right you get that here's the other thing uh I wanted to point out when you were talking about grief and I just popped back into my head uh sorry we talking about days and just popped back into my head where you're like people will put aside their uh daises and you know maybe they'll maybe they'll put them back in their decks one of the benefits of of a situation like that with days Phil is that it doesn't cost $30 for a days also who cares how much it costs the format's already like a gatekeep anyway it's one that's one other benefit is like if you if you lose out on your $20 total worth of like $ Five Doll of days you know if if you want to keep with a format every every time they print a new set that you know are like obsoletes a bunch of cards like you and I have plenty of C everybody listening to this has plenty of you know double digigit dollar cards sitting in their collection that have been power creeped out of the format that effectively they never get to play anyway so like the idea that like the difference between you functionally not getting to play the cards versus actually not getting to play the cards is entirely like Farm remembers villian click kind of the same thing kind of the same thing to anybody who would comment like Phil you can't do that or like that watsi can't do these things because like what you were just saying about like how you know there's no way that they would implement it properly well guess what they're not doing it properly now yeah yeah yeah oh true you can't do anything new because the way things have always happened don't work so we just got to stick with the way that we've always done things because it doesn't work and it's just not gonna it's GNA continue not to work what are you what are we talking about like if it's not working change something and if that doesn't work try something else until it does like if people are upset then solve the freaking problems do something different cuz what's happening now ain't it ain't it all right so let's think radical to propose something different even if we don't know versus the the clearcut thing we definitively know doesn't work the devil the devil that you know is completely terrible versus devil that you don't know can at worst can only be as terrible as the devil that you know also I like like like even positioning it as a devil I don't know trying something new that could be that could that that that clearly has the target of being helpful doesn't NE neily seem like a devil to me seems from the maybe it becomes a devil maybe it's devilish towards when we try it out but going in it seems pretty Angelic to me maybe I'm just a radical I'm a radical bro Zach maybe I'm just a radical um okay well let's let's pivot from the the the talk about banning uh and and I want to talk about well one you know we we we've we've been going back and forth on our text chain and and in the Discord links below uh about ways to combat uh scam and there was a comment last week that someone put up that was like stop being a baby and complaining about scam if it's 50% The Meta you can just hate it out play main deck lay Lon sanctity play sideboard lay line of the voids and just just aggressively Target that deck if you're gonna see it 50% of the time right and I thought you know hey Fair Point maybe maybe I'm not taking advantage of of of like a known fact that you're going to see this deck you know in a full round tournament half the time so I decided to put put that guy's money where my mouth is right and uh I registered uh five color uh drao with four main deck lay line of sanctities and four main deck lay line of the voids so I'm rocking 12 lay lines right uh if you include lay line of the of the guild pack right and technically lay line binding just 16 lay lines uh 16 lay lines and um my guy yeah I'm just playing lay line. deck tribal lay lines um so that did not work out I played I played uh I played three I for what's word I played three rounds uh in the challenge and I was like I I just need to move on like for my own mental health I'm gonna move on first round I played against alrai crushed him turns out a LIF linking Draco followed by a LIF linking Draco followed by yet another LIF linking Draco is enough to get people you know uh that are on like Decks that are fair and dumb and just want to race you with with their guys on the ground versus your guys in the air right fine I did great there I I you know I I beat that guy next round I play scam I start out boom ma my main deck lay line of sanctity hits the board doesn't matter he didn't need to grief me he just turned to uh attracted me couldn't couldn't stop that is what it is right fine next game uh I have a lay line of the Void in play he goes petty theft atraxa okay oh it turns out that that deck is very resilient to hate pieces for that for that reason right so I was like okay fine whatever go to the next game uh I open with layline of sanctity lay line of the guild pack and my opponent still gets me uh just just by reanimating you know like and I and you can go on to the the Discord the Discord the twitch which is down below and you can watch these games they're very uninteresting because every time it's just like oh this guy got attraction to play and then won the game right that happened every time so the whole like line of like oh you can just hate it out if it's 50% of the meta no no you're just wasting space in your deck at that point so I I I I I think that uh for for for my uh mental sanity here I think I'm gonna focus on some other formats for for like you know not not like only focus on other formats but just get a little bit of joy out of Magic by deck building and stuff like that I already play ADH with my friends on Wednesdays and stuff and you know I'm looking at popper I built like I have like a a popper Cube popper battle box what's called in the works where where I'm like messing around with the with the current popper format which looks super fun and very powerful it feels like Legacy um and then and then there's Lobster conon Phil yeah uh I also before we dive into a little bit of lobster con or are we gonna hold we're holding on Lobster con till we have our chat just a small amount of chat on Lobster con but please finish your thoughts well I was going to say I to to the dude Bros that are like if it's 50% of the why don't you just hate it out how do you think it got to 50% of the meta in the first place maybe it got there because it's not able to be hated out or if it was it would never have gotten to that threshold maybe maybe that's how it works turns out there 15 cards in your side there's 15 slots in your sideboard right um maybe so here so a couple of things so uh if you if you have uh been watching thus far and uh you like what you're seeing please thank about subscribing to the podcast if you're uh if you've been a fan for a while or if you if if you just like the cut of our jib uh on patreon Spotify and on uh YouTube either one of those you can subscribe uh by paying like I think it's like a $ five subscribe or join fee or whatever uh and you'll get access to all of our one ad free content so you won't see the ads um and then on top of that you'll get access to our bonus content last week uh Phil and I talked about ABC deck building you know there have been a while where I was talking to Phil about um how we should uh write a book The the definitive ABC deck building guide as a book right and then like sell that as like a PDF you know what nobody as far as I'm concerned I don't want to read a book about someone else's magic Theory I'll be more than happy to listen to a video talk with somebody at a local whatnot but I think the 20 minutes we did about ABC deck building is the most to the point core of what that of what that is and if you if you think like hey you know what maybe that's that's something that'll be worth it to me 20 minutes to learn about a the style of deck building uh Phil and I prescrib to I think uh that's the biggest value prop I can give you to joining our patreon or uh paying for Spotify or uh YouTube uh the Youtube subscriber thing um to that end uh this week uh we're going to talk a little bit about uh well I'll talk a little bit about the popper format that I've been getting into and we're going to talk about some of the traveling got coming up very soon you know a little behind the scenes stuff um and and one of those things is lobster con and Phil and I just made sure uh we are definitely going to Lobster con uh I made sure that we both have we both have uh uh entries and stuff like that it's sold out so if you're going to Lobster con uh another great reason to subscribe uh because we're going to be talking about that a little bit I know uh I didn't ask Phil what he's playing yet I'm on cadavers Bloom I'm just playing old school cadaverous Bloom the OG combo deck uh and I know that's not normally my thing but I was a cadavis bloom player back in the day so I'm pretty hyped about that I'm definitely gonna be that guy that like doesn't win the tournament but has a blast the entire time playing Phil what are you gonna play uh I have a problem not registering portent predict in a format that both exists so yeah I mean what I what I what what we should play is you know something something busted and you know fun um but I'm probably going to register portent and predict in some fashion and uh you know who knows who knows maybe I'm maybe I'm just going to apply ABC deck building and just come up with something wholly new I love that I would love that you know and we're gonna have an episode later this week where I interview Phil win uh of MTG banding a a known uh afficionado of the uh poer popper of the premodern format so so uh that's going to be super fun and that is just free content for everybody to check out if you what's that sign up for Phil's newsletter hell sign up for MTG Bing's newsletter I think it's what is it MTG bing.com if you look up MTG banding you're gonna find it double check right now because we should put it in the show notes heck yeah Lobster con is coming up in September premodern is dope everybody should try it out at least once and the way that you can learn about the format in a really easy and fun way is subscribing subscribing to Phil's MTG bandings newslet it's MTG banding substack uh which is yeah that is that is the that is the exact Here and Now of what the format is and I uh I just man I I love like I I think I may have gotten into premodern slightly before Phil but I'll tell you what man nobody nobody maybe short of uh uh what's it called Michael Flores right is is more in touch with with uh premodern than than uh Phil W man so uh definitely like like I said check out that next episode that's a free episode everyone's gonna get to get access to that Phil and I will talk a little bit more about uh about our traveling in in that in that uh uh in the patreon episode but um yeah it's going to be a lot of fun I'm really I'm really hyped for uh for lobster con and it should be a lot of fun I've never actually been to Boston can you believe that Phil you never been to Boston wow there you go yeah be fun what would I be doing in Boston I'm from Philadelphia well when we get paired in round you know one and you're looking for your combo piece I'm gonna portent Target you and you'll never find it oh no no portent is the best win condition by the way portent is a port is is a solid one um yeah and and also uh while you know while I have everyone's attention um please uh at the end of the month Phil and I are working on a um an episode where we answer uh you know a mail mailbag episode where we answer questions and stuff like that please put your questions below I've been logging them got a lot of really really interesting questions that are going to be fun to get into and uh I don't know I think that that'll be a super fun episode have we ever done a mailbag we've never done a mailbag is it because we don't value our own opinions I think it's because you're worried that because we don't have uh tournament winning results minus your one top eight and my top eight in a vintage event that people don't care about opin our opinions but here we are with like you know several thousand views per episode so uh I think I think people care enough about our opinions that they want to ask some questions all right yeah we'll answer anything magic or magic related or not yeah Phil what's your sign I'm tus tus you're also a Taurus I'm a tourus too I don't know what I don't know what that means but that's what I am means you're stubborn uh and uh yeah I don't know like think about all the things you know about me stubborn and uh pretty pretty calm CH pretty chill dude calm stubborn chill Bros yeah all right well with with that said uh Phil did you wanna did you want to add anything to this episode band days unband Sensei is divining top let's [ __ ] go band a unbanned sensat of bunny top Phil would you play a uh a creature say dividing top if it cost uh two Mana yeah yeah okay just just putting that out there what if it had haste yes much better of course of course uh all right um again uh thank you everybody for watching and uh we will catch you on the next one later on Deuces before you go I need some help please subscribe to this Channel and do your part to help sustain the Legacy content ecosystem just subscribe to the channel goes a long way to reminding YouTube that people love and support this format now if you really want to go the extra mile you should think about supporting us through patreon both the links for subscription and patreon are right here and if you're listening on an audio format you can go to patreon.com Eternal dles thanks so much for watching