UTMB 2024: Who Will Make the Podiums? Our Analysis & Picks

welcome back everyone this is our preview episode for the 2024 UTMB I'm joined by friends colleagues Brett horn and Leah Yingling super stoked for what's to come from this Leah I was looking back at our episode Library we missed you last year you were too busy running a top 10 performance at UTMB and I think the fastest women's race ever so we'll excuse it but uh this is our first time doing a UTMB preview together since 2022 Feels Like A lot's changed a whole newa uh would you agree like what are you particularly excited about this time around UTMB is just so fun to predict and just so fun to be terribly wrong about what your predictions were I think it's a race where so much happens there's actually a lot of Carnage a lot of dnfs a lot of people kind of falling back in the field and it's impossible to predict who's going to be in the top 10 so I'm excited to hear where what we arrive at in this conversation today because I think this is one where like we end up going off the cuff and all of our like initial predictions just completely go out the window but it's a special race I'm going to be wearing the Hat of crew chief this year uh my husband Mike is running it'll be his first time attempting the full loop and really excited to be on the other side of things and taking some good pictures of him Brett when we hopped in the recording room I think we both simultaneously said the the list of Runners lined up for this race that could do serious damage inside the top 10 is massive I it's 5 10 times the size of our Western States research um did you have fun in this process was it overwhelming talk about that I have mucho carpel tunnel syndrome from all the typing all the notes I was trying to figure out where like the depth is deep originated and was it the UTMB preview episode I think it was here maybe two years ago it's two years old and that's it's gotten deeper the Earth is about to split without deep the depth is getting there's definitely been some subduction some tectonic plates have shifted in our ultr running world since that phrase was coin by the way there's a t-shirt that is out in the world Courtney Olen apparently made a depth as deep t-shirt Eric lauma was sporting it so Brett your dream of an apparel line has come true yeah what how why how am I not wearing that shirt right now like Courtney I need a depth is deep shirt please I think we should start with course overview kruxy sections uh weather is looking decent I mean this is way too early we're recording this 10 days pre-race it's look from my vantage point right now it's like in fairly decent not dramatic um but yeah I think where we start is with the course Leah you probably know the course best out of all of us I've I've done CCC and I've done parts of uh the front section to like s Jer on a hiking trip but um haven't seen all of it in one push what parts stand out to you when people are consuming the race uh a few Saturdays from now you know where should they be paying attention in terms of like key places so gosh nothing looks better than the 3D map on Strava of the UTMB completed Loop like it's one of my favorite pictures in the world I just circum ating Mount Blanc um and seeing what that visual looks like at the end but yeah UTMB if you haven't spent any time on course or out on the tmbb it is roughly eight miles give or take two miles um for us here in the states um I'm not going to do the kilometer conversion but uh there's a lot of kilometers and in terms of elevation gain um last year per my Strava file I got somewhere around 32,000 ft of climbing uh so it's Hefty and I will say a lot of that comes in the like it's not exactly like front loaded with vert like you have a lot of climbing kind of starting after around like mile 20 so a really runnable first 20 miles which I think can get Runners into trouble often especially when they're riding the energy of the streets of Shaman and one of my my things um and Talking Points that I have in my notes is the one segment from Shaman to Leo uh which is one of the first segments on the course and just the blistering Pace that some Runners have split that section in and it's completely understandable why like the energy at the start line of shamon the energy that carries you through those first that first 10K um to laso is just completely wild and it's something unlike anything you've ever experienced so even if you're a runner uh like myself who says and vows that they're going to go out easy it's nearly impossible to do that at UTMB so I think that's one thing you really have to balance as a runner is uh kind of mellowing out the hype and truly running your own race and recognizing that you're going to be running nearly every single step of that first 20 miles before really settling in and doing climb after climb after climb any coar observations from you Brett just having you know followed the live stream spoken with athletes over the years yeah one of the things that's always become more apparent and I don't know almost more of a surprise that you don't really get to see by looking at the course the course profile looks like you're like up down pretty much the whole time but there's a lot of like long weird runnable sections as you go in and out of each town that has gotten more visible on each of the live streams but it just goes to show how much steeper than the climbing is once you leave town because there you see sections where they're like you know uh coming in for like two miles on pavement not that steep downhill same with the exit but then like so then you have all these transition miles of in and out of the aid stations that are pretty runnable and then you still have over 30,000 ft of climbing and you have a somewhat more mellow first 20 miles um you know it's there's still a lot that we don't see uh in the live stream where people get absolutely chewed up um you know and then they come into the next aid station looking like absolute trash and you know every year as the coverage expands we get to get a little bit more in-depth picture of some of those in between sections but um you know it's just become more apparent how how it's it's not just fully hike up run down yeah Leah like you mentioned early on in the race there is that lure before leou to maybe overdo it uh but but I I agree I mean we I think it might be underappreciated how much you need to have running legs for this race despite that profile of over 30,000 feet of climbing we we had Tom Evans on the show uh a few days ago before this race talking about UTMB and one of the things he said that stuck with me was if you train like everyone else for this race you're going to get results like everyone else and he mentioned that because he said you know I started this season opening up with training for the cross country World Championships and I feel like that gave me the legs portion that I need to uh compensate on certain sections and maybe even like make moves on folks like Walmsley so I would just throw that out there too that like there there like in our friend Jimmy Elum and this quote has always cracked me up he says you could drive a golf cart on more than 50% of this course despite how mountainous it is and I I think there's a lot of Truth in that so I would just caution that to the audience like folks are going to have to run and I think Western States legs help here yeah that is like a lot of people talk about Western States and UTMB doing that double you know is it beneficial is it not is it doing like is it is it harming your UTMB performance and I do think there's an element that actually does help it with just how runnable there are the sections of UTMB truly are um like for example just up on Grand kle for a um you've got long descent down to lauli um and then even beyond the Lai eight station you just keep keep keep descending for what seems like forever and I think that was even just like a misconception in my mind I was like oh yeah I will descend down to Lai then we'll start climbing up to shampe lock and no like that's not the case you actually like you keep descending and I think being able to maintain your quads for as long as possible is so important in this race being able to maintain your quads being able to run um I actually think that's a bit more important than maintaining your climbing legs later on in the race because I think you can kind of like keep up a good bit and lose not a ton of time on the climbs but you can lose major time if you're not descending well um and I think we saw like a lot of moves made um for example in the men's top 10 last year with people who could just move downhill Hill extremely well towards the end like Tyler green moved up considerably in the top 10 uh throughout the last couple sections just because his quads were so resilient so I think there's this element like Tom mentioned where you want to be able to run but you also want to be pounding your quads a good bit during training to make sure you can maintain um those Paces on the downhills late in the race uh just to go off that we we've talked about Hard Rock in that sense where it's like the climbing so high up and a lot of it's so steep that it gets kind of neutralized because everyone's very similar in terms of aerobic fitness but it's like who can keep descending over and over and then the conversation was like well UTMB you can climb a little bit harder because you know the altitude's not as high are we getting to that point where even at a course like UTMB the climbing is getting more neutralized now and it's now turning into like you need to mostly train to win this race on descents and a byproduct of you know getting good at descending is you usually have to like go up a hill in order to run down it um are we seeing that like like almost a shift in a way of the way you could compete at this race I'd say yes and no I think the one thing about UTMB and uh usually with these race prediction episodes we put people in boxes and kind of categorize them per the style of athlete that they are I think with UTMB you need to be pretty good at just about everything and I think that's who we will see do the best in this race is not a certain specialist in one capacity but somebody that does everything well and has trained everything well um so I I think yeah there's bits and pieces there I also like will disagree a little bit with the fact that like the UTMB course is not technical I think there's definitely sections that are Technical and I think the technicality that sticks out to me largely is just a lot of roots at times and these will be in like sections at a time like going down into Valor scene um the newer rerouted section um after Valor scene that you climb and descend um and then climb again before going up to ler so I think you have to even be like a good like runner on routs which a lot of people don't really train specifically on in training so being agile enough in the later stages of the race to uh farewell on that stuff and not get frustrated to that point Leah for folks that haven't been on the UTMB course you couldn't place the technicality of this race in a worse position than the last six miles like around lafer around Valor scene I doing that last six mile descent into town especially if it's in the dark I guess during UTMB for the top contenders will be mostly in the daylight but uh it's not like you have this carpet to the Finish rewarding you for making the full lap like there's still some proprioception involved there's still some like mental Clarity needed it's it can be a little treacherous yeah and I would uh definitely recommend having like intact feet for that section feet and quads because I think if of those are impaired on that final section or you that final stretch by any means you're really Limited in what you can do heading to the Finish because it's a pretty like steep tough downhill uh on some tired legs Brett maybe I'll throw this question to you first you know I'm sure if we did a head count 2024 would be another record year where you know the number of pro and amate athletes heading over a month or two ahead of time to train on the course is at an all-time high I guess what I'm wondering as it relates to like training specificity if you've already kind of been there and done that like if you're a veteran of UTM you did it in whatever 2122 you spent a summer out there do you feel like it's still necessary like are the margins so tight that you know in this day of age you have to continue to be out there ahead of time or like you know could someone spend a season you know in the Eastern Siera after five years of time in Shaman and like be totally ready to do battle uh for this race I think it might depend on the person and Tom Evans brought this up in his pre-race interview with you and I thought that was super fascinating of like Tom was like yeah I made sure I have all the tools to get in like the training by the Numbers uh you know to make sure I'm fully prepared for the race and I personally would prefer to stay at home not have to worry about the logistics of training not from home and then it gets me really excited to go explore you know see the trails for the first time in a while um and you know I think there and there's definitely some people who are going to benefit hugely from just the excitement of like you know have been out here you know there's other people who are going to be like no I would love to make sure that I know every single Rock and every single route out on course um I think I personally would tend to fall into that second category where like the more time I could just spend out on course the better um maybe with years of experience and like just being out there you see less and less that you you're like okay no I know like like I know if I race you know Western States again I wouldn't need to go on the course for the sake of training it would just be more for the sake of I like running out there but I know that I can get in what I need to in other places where do you come down on this Leo yeah I think there's a reason we're not in shamon right now and we're out on the outskirts um in neighboring areas in Switzerland uh I think there's been just such an influx of people into the shaman region in recent years and like doing multiple loops on the course Before the Race gets going and yeah I think that speaks to like the increased professionalism of the sport and increased specificity um but I think I'm speaking specifically from like a American perspective like just getting used to the Alps trails in general is useful and I think the Alps trails are similar regardless of where you are in the Alps uh so right now uh Mike and I have been spending some time out in like the Iger area and then out we're in zermat right now and I think just getting the feel for like the long ascents the long descents um getting familiar with those getting that specificity on your legs I think frankly is good enough I think there's some places in the states that you can get similar training and you might just be more comfortable training at home in your environment and preferring that more um I think there's something to be said about just the energy suck that can be all the hype and all the people for an entire month before your key race um especially for some of the teams that all stay together in the month leading up to the race too I think that's increase for infection and viruses and stuff like that spreading as well but it's also increased risk of just like mentally being drained by the time race day rolls around so definitely pros and cons um to both but yeah I think this year after spending a lot of time on course SL last year we're seing some pros of just being like outside the madness for a little bit I think we should move on to the women's field Brett your shirt says it here for the women's race and I maybe we start with top story lines that I can go first for me and there's many but one is the debut finally of Ruth Croft at UTMB and I I hate to say debut sometimes because she's one OC she's one CCC she trained to line up for this race last year so she was like a week removed from being on the start line she did a full you know at least month I think around shaman on the course Etc but she's here when she's on she's on I mean I I almost felt like last year with a slightly compromised Courtney two races into her triple it could have been her race to win uh Brett how do you how do you feel about Ruth's entry in this race this year yeah I mean I'm so excited for I mean there's got to be some uh positives that come for training for this like positives that come with training for this race twice and then finally getting to run it you know um I I I mentioned that same thing with like Tim toson training for Western States this year in hopes that he would get pulled off the weight list but then didn't it's like cool dude you out in this massive 100 mile training block didn't trash yourself with the race like who in their right mind's ever going to do that knowing that they're not going to do that race um so yeah I'm curious if Ruth's now like like somehow like a veteran without actually having started UTMB um at least from a training standpoint um you know listening to some of her interviews about the mental side of things uh she's one of the Most Fascinating People in the sport in that regard and you know this is just one of those races where it's like the longer it gets um you know really long night sections potentially really crappy weather it's like who can just like keep their together the longest and not not get into those like you know pity party type stages and you know Ruth's definitely one of those people who mentally is proven to like be one of the toughest out there and then also physically one of the gifted when you put those you know most gifted when you put those two together you have someone who has like a very very high ceiling um on a course like this well I think too like what Le what Leah you were saying about the many ways you can sort of win this race now Brett I think you kind of started that conversation to me she is one of the most complete Runners on either the men's side or the women's side and yeah we had her on the podcast last year before the race and I'm so bummed that she couldn't line up but the depth that she has gone to the the depth is deep in terms of like leaving no stone unturned for her to be like in that mental Ed space to to win or get the best like I think she was training to be a naturopath at the time and had done all of these like fairly exotic like just tests and stuff on on her mind and body I I'd have to go back and realist him but it was it was impressive willah what do you think yeah I think Ruth is just one of those true Professionals in the sport she takes it really seriously uh and you see that like in the way that she impeccably executes every race that she lines up for like she's never lining up on a start line and kind of like half-assing it or not taking it seriously like she's always uh training with everything in mind when she does that which I love to see and she's just such a competitor and isn't afraid to like race people and race from the front either so I like to see those elements uh last year after she couldn't line up at UTMB she ended up channeling all that energy into a really really solid race at Ultra Trail Cape Town which is not an easy course whatsoever and she just completely slaughtered it and did so well and then um back that up with a course record at trans volcania then in the spring so she can kind of do it all and like you mentioned wins it I think she's won OCC twice she's won CCC uh not many women in the field I think uh Bland's the only other one that's won both of those races uh so I think you know it speaks to just her experience on these Trails too and she's Run 100 miles at Western States um two times something I do think is interesting was her win at Western States two years ago I think she ran 1721 which would have put her eighth place in the this year's field um so it just speaks to how much the sport has progressed especially at western states in the last two years um I would love to see like her in the mix there but I think that's what's cool about Ruth as an athlete is she's so versatile and she excels on um you know a course like Western States but even more so on a course like UTMB so excited to see her put together for her longest time on feed yet another storyline in this year's race that is intriguing to me at least psychologically for female Front Runners the top two women from last year Courtney de Walter Katarina hartmuth are not returning um sending it back to you actually first Leah do you like if you're in this field does that have any psychological impact on how you approach this race does it feel like there's more opportunity uh is title defense a big things it's like on the men's side there's that you know big Target we assume on Jim Ms ley's back how do you how would you interpret this as a competitor yeah I think I think it was really exciting to Katie entered the game a couple weeks ago and she announced that she was going to be doing UTMB I think that added a really interesting Dimension I was almost hoping that Courtney would come into and say that she was racing as well and I was like oh my God this is just going to be the best UTMB that we've ever spectated but uh I think adding Katie into the mix made it super exciting I think before that um you know it might have been like a little bit easier to like a little bit more interesting to predict what was going to happen but I think really anything can happen now uh I think we're gonna see very similar running from a lot of the women that were in the top 10 last year so we do have six of last year's top 10 returning um and that includes um uh gosh I think the only ones that aren't going to be there Elsa McDonald Katarina Courtney and myself um so that's yeah six people that I think what we're seeing with women is just like consistency year after year so I wouldn't be surprised if we saw the same like those same six returners be in contention for top 10 spots again um and then we have people like Maran Hogan who was on the podium two years ago uh coming back for this round and hopefully having uh a really strong go again after she had a really solid result but actually suffered an injury mid- race and still was able to hang on the way she did I've got a fun story line let's hear it um the women's Western States Podium plus fourth place Emily hogood are all racing UTMB competing for the devil that's that's nuts and also awesome like for some reason I feel like if I had looked at the men's top four and they were like I'm we're all running UTMB I'd be a little bit like more hesitant to be like oh yeah they're all going to crush it but then like this women's top four I'm like dude are they just gonna run it back and go like one through four at UTMB also because like that's not out like that's it's not that unlikely like you're very good they all ran very fast and they all seem to bounce back pretty well after after um Western States and they all have had good results at UTMB at some point um yeah Esther well Katie uh who got second where's the name f f Shang fua yeah Shang fuou Esther and then Emily hogard they have all run good UTMB BS they've now all run good Western States and to add to that after the fastest Western States ever what an experiment to see if they can recreate that on a high level you know eight nine weeks later like is is there a toll are they paying a toll from such a performance breakthrough in the sport uh you know did they swipe a credit card to make that happen or like is this just is this just the new reality I'm I'm excited to see the results you know Leah I have a question for you yeah what do you think beats up the body more a fast Western States on a cool year or slow Western States on a really hot year slow Western States on a hot year for sure yeah like I actually think I think the way we're seeing nutrition transform shoes transform I think people will likely be recovering better um I think the argument I've made in past years is I do wonder how people who are shooting for the podium and get on the podium at Western States how they then perform at UTMB because oftentimes like a Podium performance like really guts you gets a lot out of you I think what we saw this year was like people truly racing and um pushing each other to extremes so I'm curious to see how much residual effects from those performances we'll see I do think it feel like it seems a bit easier to get top 10 again at UTMB um if you're not one of those like Podium contenders at the front um at Western States so I don't know it's it's hard to say I think it if I were somebody like Ruth Croft blandine maryan Hogan I'd be kind of happy that I had four people who just ran 100 miles um competing for those front spots I think that's a little bit vulnerable um and we'll see how they all have turned around I think something else that's interesting about that is um Katie fua and Esther are all coached by Jason Coupe in addition to Lucy Bartholomew who was also in the top 10 last year at UTMB so we got a lot of Jason Coupe athletes um G to be competing out there again as well so curious to see like how the the differen is in training um and Recovery kind of line up on race day to to follow up on that uh it reminds me of one of my bold predictions for this year and I agree that until this year it was noticeably easier to top 10 at UTMB than it was at Western I think that changes this year I think it's equalized I think this is 2024 is the first year where uh on the women's side like they're both on equal standing and I think we're just going to see massive performance breakthroughs at this year's race maybe we can get into those later um that kind of play that out that that's my that's my one of my predictions I think we still see more blowups at UTMB than Western States like and I think that's because you are going to have to the dice more to be in the top 10 cuz while there might be less people blowing up or less people going for it at the front if you have 40 women trying to go for top 10 you know 30 aren't going to blow up and it's like how much how many people are you really going to pick off in the second half of the race um yeah I don't know I predict a little more dice rolling but I think we also see more like seven and 11s than before as well Leah I feel like we're just throwing questions at you I I have one obviously you did the double well last year Ninth at Western eighth at UTMB when you were at the start line for UTMB last year if you could put a rough percentage on where you were at zero to 100 in terms of freshness where do you feel like you were at on race day like was it like an 80% Leah 90 like where were you at can we first talk about where they physically placed me on that start line because that was right next to Jim Walmsley so physically I was in a terrible location but um mentally and emotionally um no I felt I think with every longer race I line up for um I feel ready to go I feel like you just have to execute and you're working with what you got I felt pretty rested on that day and ready to roll and like actually quite good um I didn't do a ton of volume between the two um this year we have one additional week one additional week or was it one last I think it's one last week this year between the races so it's nine weeks between the two this year and um last year was 10 so you have that one additional week you're working with last year um I think it is really important to think about how you do recovery like something I was glancing at with Esther um and fal's training in particular where they took like three really low weeks like almost a full week off then a really low week and then like really just bumping up back into kind of average training before diving into like the true brunt of UTMB training and I think that's really important is just like respecting where you're at in those moments as well um and making good use of like maybe it is only a three-week chunk that you're doing but making sure that that's quality in your recovering but really respecting that initial recovery the most okay yeah it almost seems like the uh like the fitness part of things is done prior to Western States and then you know three weeks of specificity for UTMB get the legs you know ready for the downhill and hope that that was enough because I wonder how much freshness is going to be a factor like when the dust has settled we look at how things transpired we look at the podiums the winners will they be people who just dedicated the entire summer to this race will it be like Brett described where you know maybe we see the top four women at Western run it back in perfect succession at UTMB I'm like this is one of the that's another storyline for me is like freshness versus just like toughing it out and um making this double even more legit of a theme well and we're only talking about physical FR freshness right now like what about the mental you know aspect like you know Tom said that was one of his biggest kind of in hindsight like aha moments last year after UTMB was like oh I had a great race at Western States I'm just going to go run it back at UTMB but then it's like no I wasn't actually really ready to like fully get in there and battle whereas like physically he was probably pretty fine at least good enough for top 10 you know you win Western States you could physically probably be able to top 10 at UTMB but like you know mentally how much are you willing to go back to that place you know nine 10 weeks after doing and yeah that answer is going to be different for everyone but um you know something that we tend to see I don't know Midway 70% of the way through the race um you know we talked about like some of the important like the cruxes of the course and we've always kind of talked about like who looks really good coming into corai air um and I think that's still important but one spot that I've started to look at more is um who who looks good coming up and over and then down the grand CLE foray that one's that one's been almost more of an eye opener to me than who looks okay out of corm a um because it just seems like that climb up to the top of gr KRA has like absolutely shattered people in the past and and I think that's where Zack and Jim had that split last year late like I think Zack put like 15 minutes on him or something I think you know Jim ran the last 50k really well but there was that split there for sure yeah and I do think like you know for all the women who will be in the top 10 or battling for a top 10 spot when you get to arua which is that before you start climbing up to the the grand kfay the Sun is up the sun would have just came up on the section um into arua and you're still only like 12 hours into the race 13 hours into the race and like if you're somebody that's running like 25 hours like a lot of the women in you know four through seven will be like you still have double you still have like that same amount of time left to go so there's a lot of race left and I think that can be a common mistake is people are kind of wiped by the time they get to ariva or on top of grand K and before they even begin descending down to lauli and then ascending up to champe lock uh so I think you really have to like be in it and feel good truly um because you can it starts to get away from you but I will say like just from personal experience last year and I know it's there was a lot of movement up in more of like that the front of the uh women's field from like first through five uh there tends to be and like maybe this year we'll see it be different but like 7 through 10 at UTMB tends to spread out quite a bit to have these like 30 minute gaps between each other where they're almost these like safe positions by Sha pck and you just kind of need to survive from there to the finish and like secure your spot and you can almost see that throughout the years in results um and it's kind of comforting in some ways if you are in one of those positions but I know that script is going to change one of these years where there's a lot more movement back there and things are getting a little tighter so people kind of start playing defense some I guess two is when people if someone like someone in front of you drops out and there was a 5 minute Gap to you in the person then all of a sudden they disappear and now it's a 15 minute Gap to the person in front of you or this person right behind you drops out now all of a sudden I'm 30 minutes up on Ninth Place y um yeah that changes things that's interesting yeah and it's like unless you're feeling like complete garbage there's not a ton of people that are moving like 30 minutes faster than you on any given section late into the race uh so it's yeah it's definitely an interesting position to be in um and we could talk about like how some of the women have run this race in the past and things like that but um if I were lining up on the start line this year uh racing UTMB and you know me I'm just really good at getting in the back half of top 10 of races um I would want to line up next to M mayora she's gotten um third and fifth at UTMB and running just like really calculated um 25 and races on two occasions now um and you can almost I know we shouldn't be speaking about Races by like time guarantees of like oh if you run 25 something you're in the top 10 um but like she's done that two times and she's run the race extremely well both times moving up extraordinarily throughout um one of my favorite stats I found on her from last year was she caught 11 people between aruva and climbing up to Grand KF while so and like that's a part where people aren't feeling that good and like she just kept gaining people and gaining people um throughout the race I think she moved up 70 72 spots um from Cormier to the finish last year um across the whole field which I think is just amazing and that's that's how I would love to run UTMB I she passed me like I was standing still last year and I was like dang it that's who I would love to be right now but I think if I were lining up as a woman and like I wanted to be in a comfortable top 10 spot I would kind of queue off of her that is like the equivalent Ludo stat when I think he started the race in whatever 44th 46th place ultimately finishes in fifth just textbook moving up with efficiency and actually like getting into contention pretty cool um another storyline Katie shy brings the fireworks as a late entrance to this race shaking things up I mean I'm sure there was chatter about whether she ultimately would do this but it's official she's in and I think there's a lot of questions here like obviously she has a historic Western States performance under her belt uh can she be recovered enough is an 85 to 90% August 2024 Katie better than 100% August 2022 Katie both of those performances took place in the coupe air and I feel like the the switch for her really came in like the fall of 21 but uh yeah what what do you guys think like uh Brett what are your thoughts here dud this is like it's like the upside down of Jim Wamsley where Katie's living in France wins UTMB and then's like I need to spend more time in the states if I want to win Western States and then on the second year wins Western States and is like I'm curious if Katie doesn't win Western States this year does she attempt UTMB or is the only reason she's doing UTMB because she's double eligible now and has the opportunity to win both like I I wonder if she even runs UTMB if she doesn't win Western States but now it's like the door's open open for that we got to try and you know we got to at least you know match what has been done in the past and I think gosh I forget I lost the number somewhere but we we were talking about like how fast does Katie need to run at UTMB to have a cumulative faster time than Courtney's Western States UTMB from last year yeah um and I wonder if I I can't imagine Katie's actually thinking that much about the exact numbers of everything and like comparing things like that but it's like if we're trying to get into that like goat type category we got to be doing goat type things and again I'm only speaking as a fan I have to assume if I was a pro athlete I would have a rough sense of exactly what I'm doing in January of a calendar year and I feel the same way about Courtney I feel like with Courtney she probably had it at some point in the back of her head in January 23 that the triple could be a thing I I doubt that like it was one of those ad hoc things where like okay I won Western let's do Hard Rock okay I want Hard Rock Let's do I feel like maybe it was there like the blueprint but uh what do you think Leah yeah so I think with most seasons like what Katie had in mind uh she's racing Western States that's on the docket she knows what she wants to do there I think she's likely thinking of it in like an if then scenario of sorts like if I win Western States then do I feel good if yes then let's see what I can do at UTMB I think what's interesting about Katie is like she's already won both races so I'd imagine the way her mind is thinking about UTMB is you know can I win both of these in the same season and likely can I improve on my initial time uh well my third time at UTMB when she won which I think was 2315 yeah I agree with that I mean if if she's going to continue to need to like challenge herself with new CH this is a new challenge I mean simply just winning UTMB as its own aace or western states as its own aace if those boxes have been checked um I wish I mean bummer that Katie's gone Strava dark for this I know training block uh I would love to see what kind of training she's doing um because she leveled up her training so much from last year's western states to this year's and that was so fun to see just like everything from pre Canyon 100K to the week right after Canyon's 100K to the few big weeks out of Flag Staff like man can only imagine what Katie is doing right now getting ready for UTMB this year one one last thing at least from me uh about sort of the the Katie shy storyline here by the way uh Brett I love the reverse Walmsley branding that's amazing we got to go with that like you know but I think about what's different in her situation since 2022 and she became a great Runner like I think until 2022 she was super comfortable in the mountains that was always her jam and I think there's a lot to be said about going to Flagstaff for two consecutive Springs getting two really good Western States under your belt and like we are saying at the top of the the program I think there is more running more running economy required than maybe people would give this race credit for and I think it just makes her again like a more complete Runner um we we saw the versatility at OCC last year like she got second place at OCC after a really taxing Western um I get the sense that she's probably feeling like she absorbed this second Western pretty well uh she you know she was defending her PhD thesis I'm pretty sure like in the summer leading up to that 2022 UTMB so like I think there's just like she's fully a pro now um I'm really excited she's got wheels like she has that like Mountain running background plus the wheels of the last two years uh I think it's a really interesting dangerous combination I'm excited yeah and I think regarding her Strava Darkness Brett um we got like the slightest snippet of like what the beginning of our UTMB training was about to look like on straa and so you can kind of get like a glance of like what did week one of UTM build look like and I think that was um a 30,000 foot week so 10,000 met or so for our uh metric friends but pretty amazing like that is a few weeks after Western stage she had two good down weeks but I'm assuming she just like built from there so I I understand uh likely wanting to preserve that like the mental side of things uh coming into UTMB and really just wanting your training to be your own without eyes on it um we see a ton of like men in the field do that as well and a bunch of the Euros um too so yeah not privy to a lot of people's training in this preview show uh since we've kind of started creating this category of the the the very well-rounded versatile athlete um you know with with Ruth Croft and Katie shy I had two other names that were in that category for me um maybe there's more to add uh fact checked me on this one but oh my gosh I have so many pages of names here that I just keep getting lost oh anise rouso Analise rouso is another one who's very Speedy has had some like world class sub Ultra performances but then also second at Hard Rock in 2023 I think second at Grand raid uh the previous year 2014 CCC champ um just for like longevity sake fourth in 2018 and then the other one uh was blandine LE Rell who was OCC champ CCC champ and then third at UTMB last year and has done a ton of short races since last year's UTMB uh just for like UTMB indexed races she has done 10 like either 50k or shorter races and won nine of them yeah and uh during UTMB last year like I mentioned earlier in the show um that first 30k to L contamine is really runnable and she was running with Courtney like within seconds of Courtney for that whole first 30k so like she's not like blandine for example is somebody that's not afraid uh to lead especially leaning into her strengths as well like on the especially the runable the runnable stuff um but she is good at just about everything also the world Mountain running champ um in the long course a few years back as well it would be really nice to have the confidence to know that you could go out in the First 30k with the lead pack pretty much no matter what knowing you're going to burn either the same or less matches than anyone else around you yes and this brings me to my first uh segment of the race split which um one of my questions for this year's race is will any run faster than Katie Shy's course record on that segment which was 631 pace for the first five and a half miles along the river trail um with 550 feet and that's fast so many people especially in these weeks leading up to UTMB like train on that path and Katie still has like all the crowns on those longer sections just from her UTMB in 2022 so curious if anybody will go out faster Maryann I think has the second fastest time on that split from 2022 as well and being in that race last year and seeing how fast people go out it's I do not like I expect people to go out similarly this year they're not going to let up I don't I don't know if I see anyone doing that other than just Katie again like if if not Katie yeah they could but would they or would they the first time kind of contact so I could see her yeah another Speedster that um kind of has gotten over Esther to very quick another another one who could roll 630 pace for the first 10K and and not burn too many matches as well yeah I am curious about Esther a little bit going into this so she did have a dnf last year after trying to double back after um Western States I do think she's in like a better head space with this year uh I did see on AR Strava that she might have come down with Co a couple weeks back and looks like she's jumped back into training but I'd imagine that has likely like impacted in some portion training and recovery and just generally high heart rate recovery um since then especially already on like a likely weakened immune system from doing like that intensive training for an entire Summer from Western States into UTMB so curious if that will end up having a an impact come race day wasn't her dnf from last year also due to sickness like starting sick orally I think it was like mental uh like just drained uh missing her her girls that she had spent a pretty decent amount of the summer away from and just wanted to spend some time with them so I think it kind of speaks to that mental energy um and just mental freshness that you need to be lining up with as well I think you know you talk about the sort of segments that may be up for Gra in this race it reminds me that I should give one of my bold predictions for the women's race I guess it's two- part the first is that the entire top 10 this year runs under 26 hours the entire Podium runs under 23 and 2215 wins it I believe that this is a watershed year for the women's race I I believe that it lines up perfectly with western states in terms of competitiveness following through on Talent uh and it's my Stone Cold lock I'm locking into those two numbers can we run those numbers back with like last year's results in reference I also will say if we want to run the tape I made similar bold predictions on Western States finishing times and I'm not gonna wave the flag but they came true it's true it's true oh I so I think we'll see a winning time under like right around 23 hours I think on women's side of things I think I don't think we would see a Podium under 23 hours I think we would see maybe a Podium under 24 hours um I could see that likely happening and then I think top 10 2630 or lower I just think all like because my other prediction that's kind of bold is that there are no surprises in the top 10 that it's a truly professionalized top 10 and everyone that's top 10 you could make an argument that on any given day they also could have podiumed or even won the race I don't know if there's 10 Deep that could win the race but I feel like there's 10 Deep that could Podium totally and so I think that's what's driving this idea in my head that we're gonna just see this massive step function in performance kind of like CCC two years ago yeah yeah yeah it's funny how like I've got a few people who are like you know maybe you've raced at UTMB but this is their first UTMB who like may like maybe would be considered dark horses but at the same time are like certified Heavy Hitters you know like we got like Abby Hall who runs for Adidas Trix has three top 10 at CCC it's like how could you be considered a dark horse um or you know even someone like like someone very like relatively newer to the sport like Helen Mino fauler like are they a dark horse even though they like run for Hoka the title sponsor of the race and was third at CCC last year um you know the biggest question mark i' would say is like this is their 100 mile dep you I think in order to start getting into some of the names we should go into some of these one-off prediction categories and let's lead with dark horse I'll go first my dark horse in the women's field is Fiona Port oh that's mine is it really yeah oh my gosh so let let the record show that I can't with this before Leah we were not talking offline Fiona port and you know one lav R last year I think what sealed the deal for me on making this a dark horse pick is you would have need to have followed the Maxi race but she really pushed Cammy Brios pretty hard in that race most people in this audience know who Cammy Brios is had a great race at Hard Rock this past year was really putting pressure on her second at TDS last year in a pretty strong field won that Maxi race uh in 23 um when I say Dark Horse I mean like I think she would be a surprise selection in the top 10 I don't have her on my sort of like Podium watch but I'd love to hear what you think Leah on that front no I was definitely thinking um you know like she's not a dark horse to especially um anybody that's in France and has been following her running for some time this will be her first UTMB um so like perhaps yeah she might be a dark horse like the UTMB context of things but her lavaro was um was awesome last year I think um beating out Mary Mary line nakachi from France as well um who's a really strong Runner and um Emma Stewart from Ireland who's also lining up at UTMB as well who I think is another really interesting Runner um I think she's a far like farming veterinarian uh so some cool Runners out there too but yeah I think Fiona is going to be really excited I think she's one of those women that in my mind is a lock for the top 10 um don't know where she will be but I wouldn't be surprised if she does mix it up um especially in that like top five battle early on who you got Brett I'm gonna answer my own question Helen Meo fogner um you know I think if if you go to her you know UTMB profile she does not have an index score for the M distance like that by definition has got to be Darkhorse you know to have no result score uh for this distance and you know in the past two years CCC was 12 and a half hours for her that was just about double the length of any other race she did prior to that and it it seemed to work fine so I'm like okay let's just like I know we're not doubling the distance we're probably going to double the time um let just double the time again like Helen Ran So like calm last year like her Vibes at CCC just seemed very chill um like not rushed very relaxed like flowy and those are all good things when moving up in distance so I'm I'm hopeful for a a breakout performance at UTMB by Helen Mino fauler and she's got to be one of the very few who don't have like especially in like the ones to watch category um without 100 mile experience like um Fiona Port she's lined up with TDS which in my mind TDs is it's a 100 miles pretty much yeah um it's really no different than UTMB so Helen this is like big jump up in distance for her especially like you men by time so I think that that'll be um yeah just like a little bit a question mark for her her training's been awesome um she's been spending some time out on course doing some pretty hefty runs uh I think something Helen stands by is like truly going extremely easy in her training runs um and really just like respecting that pace herself um so I think we mentioned like coming out to Shaman weeks prior it's like really easily to get like sucked into like group run Pace things like that so I think Helen's somebody that does a good job of just like respecting where she's at and respecting what she needs to perform well and I think um I I like that a lot about her training one of the other big variables with like jumping from CCC to UTMB that I'm curious about your take on this Le is like you know not only is it you know if you have a great day at UTMB you're like doubling your grade day at CCC in terms of time but CCC you get a a like a much more regular race start time like was it 9:00 am um whereas UTMB you get 600 PM how how much like how different was that for you like starting at 6 well you you run in the yeah I'm the wrong person yeah because like that yeah you're you were built for this actually but that's got to be something that like I personally would need to practice a lot is like a 6 PM Run start going straight into like 100% certainty a full night of running it's not easy and I think the like structuring your day prior to that 6 p.m start is important treating it like it's the morning is important I personally love night running so much and I do so much of it so I'm comfortable doing it but if you're somebody that doesn't do a lot of like headlamp running like be like not getting stressed out by those little pieces is really important like how do you you know work your headlamp if the batteries go out and like it's windy and raining up on the pyramids and it's dark and miserable and you're trying to get your jacket on but you still need to eat so like just being able to like keep your cool in the night whenever like you're getting lots of things thrown at you to manage I think for somebody that's new to the 100 mile distance just all the controllables that can like stack up over time in a race that you really need to manage I think that's the hardest part if this is your first 100 yeah yeah um the the question for those who are listening and like just submit your answers to the single track uh Instagram DMS it's like like for an evening start race like how do you plan your pre-race dump like let me know how you schedule that out just send that answer to run single tracks DM we've actually changed our handle to conversational Pace re at91 um next category most likely to surprise positive or negatively mineus positive and I am this might be a surprise uh Shang vua and the reason I say Shang vua as my positive surprise is because and maybe part of the blame is falls on me myself being a member of the media I feel like her second place performance at Western States the third fastest run ever fell a little bit under the radar like comparatively rods got a lot of publicity totally Katie got a lot of publicity Jim did and she ran an unbelievable race bonkers um I think it would not surprise me if uh if she's kind of riding this wave Le that you talked about kind of jumping back in training pretty efficiently it wouldn't shock me if she could get on the podium here and um you know we could be talking about like a ktie one1 and like a fuou 22 or 23 totally and I 100% agree with that like I would not be the least bit surprised if like we saw her win the race like I think she's strong she's incredibly resilient and she's improved every single year she's been at UTMB last year um placing as high as fourth in Podium contention a lot of the day before um kind of like battling it out with uh blandine later in the race um and get staying in her fourth position towards the end but only 28 minutes off a Podium spot I think like her training just kind of like Stacks and stacks and stacks on itself she does a lot of um flatter faster running when she's back in China and also is like well versed in the mountains and like can do it all and I'm really really excited to see kind of how she responded after Western States I almost think she was relatively unfazed by it even though it was like this Mega performance that I agreed did not get the attention it deserved um but I think it set herself up for success in this training block and I liked her recovery period that she had after um western states too before jumping back in who's your surprise Leah you know I guess not not a surprise to me but um katarena sska who was in sixth place last year in the race um up until the race was just an ambassador for on running and after her sixth place performance um became an athlete with them so I think at that time was extremely under the radar but she is such a strong climber um strong climber strong descender she's just extremely talented um ran a really well EX executed race last year um has been doing really similar training to what she put down last year um you know several hundred some mile weeks with good vert um puts in a lot of cycling in her training as well like I see a lot of um athletes in the field doing something similar but she her sixth place last year I thought was astounding and um I think we'll see her again in the top 10 this year so that might not be a surprise um to some but I think like she still kind of stands out as like a dark who's kind of understated um in the field that's a really good one that's a great one did we have we didn't did we have a comeback performance or can oh we didn't get there yet but we can talk about that too okay I was say like by like just like positive surprise I think it going to be the return of Maryann Hogan oh yeah um which because like she was like second at UTMB but it was it was like a rough second for her you know like was on track to like more or less blow the race out of the water and then just like I she like shredded her hip like her laum or something like that and yeah and then like had to walk most of the last climb and descent and still somehow held on to Second um and then had like a fairly lengthy rehab process and just a lot of learnings and as as has already strung together some pretty solid races um and it's funny how you know like how we've said like how fast this sport has moved in the last you know 12 to 18 months it almost feel like it almost feels like marann Hogan's been like forgotten about she was like in the Old Guard but that was that was two years ago two years ago yeah the year that she got Podium at both Western States and UTMB exactly like that's that double is nuts and I ancient history yeah like so I'm I'm excited to see marann come back and almost certainly race with you know a level of confident aggression at the front with you know no fear and you know those oftentimes lead to very good results yeah I think um something about Maran tushi last year I think she was also coming then back from like a stress fracture um as well so got her season off to a pretty late start but put together a really good Ultra Trail Cape Town um where like she went out with Ruth who you know had strung together an entire season's worth of training for UTMB couldn't line up a UTMB like resurface that training for Cape Town and Maryanne like went right out with Ruth there hung with her for a bit and ended up having a pretty strong second place um and a good battle with a Katarina mitv so I think we see all three of those women in the race this year which will be exciting but then um maryan then lined up at trans volcania this year and had a little bit rough um I think six place finished there but then um came back a few weeks later at the Swiss Canyon uh I think 100k uh race and won that and uh just has been H been on the up and up and I think she'll even say it herself how she's just reformatted her training entirely this last year to stay healthy and what that looks like for her is like a lot of cycling integrated into her training so she's no stranger to putting down like 24 to 30 hour weeks that combine both running and cycling and I think it's been working really well for her I think we maybe have time for like one more of these then we can do our Podium kind of winner picks because we still have to do the men's field which is wild uh there's just so much to talk about at UTMB let's do uh let's do book it our most confident prediction actually I don't want to do book it because that could end up being a winner or a Podium how about best team performance let's do best team performance on the women's side I'm gonna go Hoka and I'm looking at Helen Mino fogner Esther fuou man it's it's dispersed in the field but that seem like because we're looking at like fantasy free chil before this episode looking at like the UTMB live website there's not like a massive contingent among any of the brands I feel like Hoka has the most Collective so I went hok here Brett what do you think give me give me Adidas Trix just to be different and also because well there it's hard to compete against the numbers of Hoka but Trix has Emily hogood Catarina MV Ruth Croft and Abby Hall that's that's a solid Squad of four right there I think it be last year I'm pretty sure at UTMB there was for the women it was one at there was no duplicate Brands which was cool um yes yeah this year I think there will be two Adidas TS in the top 10 two hokas and that'll be like the maximum of any brand so we're gonna have to go to the time tiebreaker like at Worlds yeah yeah or something like that or the third place yeah oh right right yeah it does seem like tcks and Hoke on the women's side have the have the most numbers especially at the front all right Podium and winter picks I'll go first this was extraordinarily tough for me and like you said Lee at the top of the conversation I am bracing myself for these just to absolutely go to dust and you know nothing to be correct my winner is Katie shy very closely followed by Ruth I think that this race ends up when we look back in history it's going to just be this amazing battle between Katie shy and Ruth that's going to inspire generations of athletes to come we're going to look back at this race and be like that was sick the same way that like the whole like rod and jym back and forth was amazing at Western this year I think it'll be just a classic battle and then I've got Shang vuia in third to round out the podium which it's it's a little safe it's a little predictable I'm going to take Katie as long as she's at the top uh she's generational it's it's her and Courtney although Ruth could be there too but I'm gonna take Katie as long as she's on this hot streak she's had an amazing year I have the same Podium um I went five because I I had like every other Runner was a western state her from this year so like Katie I think Katie this is Katie's race to lose this year and I don't think she does um I don't know just from a confidence Level Fitness level I I mean it's going to be an amazing battle um I don't think she's gonna get to just solo a huge amount of the race like uh she did at Western States then I've got yeah Ruth in second Shang fuou third I've got Maryann Hogan in fourth and then fifth I'm going Emily hogood which was also my my bookend prediction of like what's going to happen I was like Emily hogood will be in the top 10 yeah to have like four years of incredible Western States UTMB doubles yeah okay I've got Ruth winning I think like just the sole Focus that she's had now for two years straight on this I think that all kind of reain supreme when it comes to just execution and mental freshness um so yeah I think we'll see that I think Katie sh in second um yeah I think Shang fua in third and then I'll go five here too and I'm gonna go with I don't have these written down this is just what I'm going with at this moment in time um I think we'll see a Katarina mitv in fourth um she was fourth here in 2019 I think we'll see her there again um and then either Fiona port or M mayora um in our fifth place position awesome before we go something we didn't get to talk a lot about was U Mayon bohard um she dnfed her last two times here did win TDS um she was running in the lead pack last year like the kind of Chase pack behind Courtney I guess for a lot of the race um curious I think we will see her in the top 10 um maybe not in one of those top five positions um like the ones I just mentioned but um I think I think she'll be in the mix this year and she's a really strong um runner from France she was having a really she got hurt right her ceiling is very high she's just yeah she's had kind of bad luck at UTMB yeah um they've been like the only blips on her race resume in the last you know four or five years before we go to the men's field just a couple stats to read off from aid station Fireball people in the audience kind of want to timestamp things have sort of expectations for zones as people finish uh historically if you look at the women's spread with some exceptions 2018 being one of them very tight race it's gradually decreased in the last 10 years from nearly a six hour average spread to four hours separating first through 10 so that's interesting we'll be I'll be watching very intently to see if that closes dramatically again this year and then typically 30ish hours would get you just inside the top 10 10 years ago now you need to be at least 2730 I think it's going to be well into the 26 as my prediction was sub 26 but just interesting time stamps to watch for but yeah going into the men's field top storylines I guess just like the first one is is the Target on Jim's back he's finally a champion here he uh you know he lived this course this region for two years got it done uh what do you think Brett is he defending this thing is it gonna be tougher than last year before we go into is he defending this thing I mean one thing that's interesting is you know he chose you know when we talked to him at at Western States we were like are you going to fly to Europe immediately after States and start your UTMB training he's like no I'm GNA do most of my UTMB training over in the San Juans um so kind of going back to our earlier conversation of like how much time do you need to spend on the course Jim doesn't think he needs to spend that much time on the course um for this year um but yeah the double he's double eligible and Killian's the only male who has done that right 2011 Killian Jour yep yeah there's been there's been some like there's been the Hard Rock UTMB devil um which we have Ludo being eligible for that this year um which is cool that we have kind of two different double storylines that culminate at UTMB to see who can be the actual double double Champion what do you got Leah um so what's this question the will anyone seriously challeng interesting or interesting story lines yeah I would say like the the ability for Jim to come back here and defend his title whether it's going to be a tougher time this go around uh for any number of reasons yeah no I think um yeah what we saw at Western States was like Jim appeared vulnerable to his competitors a bit uh people saw that they can indeed run with Jim and they can make moves they can break him a little bit um and he's not completely off limits we at the men's field is wild this year we're seeing 15 of the top 20 returning um and that is like 15 men who likely want to improve on what they've done the year prior years prior um and who could very well like run a risky race in order to make those improvements um like I think we're seeing a lot of people just like believe in themselves believe in their training and believe in their abilities to like put all the controllables together on race day and if that means they're running an aggressive race and trying to run with Jim then they might try it something that was cool about western states that I like picked up on after the fact was it felt like Jim like didn't really treat Aid stations at Western States like quite as efficiently and fast and Rapid as a lot of his other competitors um almost treated it like it was a UTMB a station in some ways like taking him his time taking care of himself I think that will treat him well at UTMB like being in practice of taking the necessary time to um take care of yourself I could see some people who might be like in the heat of a race at UTMB and being a little bit more aggressive forgetting to take care of themselves in some of those imperative Aid stations so just something to keep an eye on and like something to be mindful of is like people not getting like too risky um for the racing aspect and really like still remembering that they have 108 miles to run two observations from me the first Brett you were highlighting the importance of sort of mental strength mental resourcefulness earlier in the episode and Jim had this comment I think it might have been during our Western States interview but he basically said that like 2024 has been the finest mental season of my life and I'm more appreciative of winning these races on tactics and sort of just like that place in my mind and less on time trialing things and getting caught in a maze of like you know trialing this particular section of the course and then going down this like dark alleyway that I have to like see if I can get myself out of like he's just he seems if there was ever any point in his career in my opinion where he could win a race on this like 85 to 90% of himself Zone I think it would be this year like he has also said on the record that he's coming into this race banged up he he's had some inflammation issues this summer has not been smooth post Western States but he's like not worried um or it's not going to like dissuade him from being on the start line and then I also think these top athletes especially when there's like the King which is Jim right now they tend to be copycats and we typically lament like oh my gosh everyone's following Jim they all want to do whatever like 150 mile weeks they want to follow Zach doing 50k a ver a week but like now the king is like saying no let's like step things back let's smooth things out and I think because of what Jim is publicly saying maybe we see more people in the race appreciating a more tactical like undertaking and they also smooth things out and you know there's less of this typical just people like blowing them M themselves up early and running outside their Fitness Etc I could see that happening especially if the trend is Following the Leader is is Jim uh Jim like coming to terms and being okay with tactics like the equivalent of Happy Gilmore learning how to putt just tap it in like he's like some someone learned how to putt like Jim learned how to not front run and still win I don't know I think there might be something to that and and you're right like that lends to a even more dangerous Jim Wamsley oh and I I think it's pronounced him actually sley it's a soft J um well no because I was you know we talked about how you know a lot of maybe Jim's competitors learned oh Jim is a little bit vulnerable at Western States like like ra like people passed Jim and stayed in front of him for a while and saw Jim later on in race than anyone had ever seen him in terms of a competitor standpoint on the other hand is Jim learning that he you know maybe is was like oh wow I wasn't able to run away from everyone people were putting time on me at Aid stations but I was still able to come back run them down and at the end of the day win the thing does that give him even more confidence now like looking back at it because I feel like old Jim like you know kind kind of like Brash front runner gym I feel like maybe this performance gets in his head even though he still won he's like they were too close to me I wonder if this new like euro gy is like yeah they were close to me but I still found a way to beat them I can do that at UTMB too yeah Leah any other interesting story lines for you on the men's side worth discussing you know we saw a lot of Western doublers on the women's side not a ton on the men's side I think um maybe Jim and then um uh gu Duo from China who is our 12th Place finisher at Western States but what we do see a lot of is um a lot of people running lavaro on the men's side for prep for uh for UTMB I think eight of the top 10 from lavero this year are all running UTMB so I think uh that's a big list Western States it's a good tune up um 100K a lot of similar trails in the dolomites that you'll find in the Alps so I think that's it's a largely French contingent that included that was included in that top uh 10 those eight guys but they're all back and come into UTMB so I think uh that'll be more of the storyline on the men's side I also see like a really heavy French contingent on the men's side in general like my hot take will be that we'll see like five Frenchmen in the top top 10 uh for UTMB this year which I don't think is like that rare by any means but there's a lot of them kind of how it used to be yeah a lot of them who are just like consistent back half of the top 10 performers um just really solid um at UTMB races especially so I think that's likely what we'll see uh this year as well two other men that are doing the western states UTMB double are uh Deng Gan who was 14th at States and then Shen josang good e or yeah our boy Shen um who was second at CCC last year after a I think fourth place finish at the 2023 Western States so no stranger to this double just yeah making their I think debut at UTMB yeah and I think our only uh returner non- returners from the top 10 are Zack Miller and Tyler Green from last year so really solid uh eight guys returning as well and that's Jim Geron Matthew Blanchard Ludo tibo gravier hanis nurger Arthur joyo bullan and Baptist CH oh gosh chov to to just a piggy back off your other stat of like 15 of the top 20 are returning there is uh 1 two three four five six I have seven names written down who dnfed last year who like have the potential to be in the top 10 who are also coming back this year who are they so uh Tom Evans Ben demon uh Miguel haras Jonas rusy pal Capel Dan Goman and Jeff mava okay yeah yeah all people who are coming back who dropped out last year it's good find yeah I yeah my category this year got a little bit like weird for because I like never know what my categories are going to be um cuz I Ed writing down the returners and then I was like oh well this person technically is a returner even though they didn't finish last year so then I was like I my returners from 2023 my dnfs from 2023 my returners from UTMB but didn't race in 2023 so like our UTMB alumni and then any newcomers I just have France frauds you guys know that the Miss America not Miss America Miss World Argentina United States that's how I imagine you have it written on your Google doc it's just like 800 Point font bold underlying all caps cool cool cool oh good talk um okay I have a question that kind of goes parallel with this prediction is there anyone who could potentially front run this race and give themselves a chance to just like break everyone in the field um you know like we saw pal Capel do in 2019 like is there anyone who could potentially be strong enough and ballsy enough to like run the sting out of Jim j and potentially everyone else you think Geron would you think he would front run this race I think he would yeah I think he's got the experience now too um and just that comfort of running in that lead pack and just like a really good why right now to um you know Place third last year running 2010 which was I think about 30 minutes off the winning time but in a time that would have won in all but two editions of the race on like this same race course um I think he he's currently Strava dark so hard to say exactly what he's doing because he was coming back from some broken ribs back in June or July um but he's been ninth year fifth year third um has had a dnf and I think he's just like moving up the ranks and seeing what his potential is and you could tell that every year he's training with UTMB as his Focus so I think that's we'll kind of see that shine and I don't think he'll be afraid to give it a go uh something I was reading in one of his Instagram posts was just talking about when he was chatting with his doctors about his return to running uh after his rib injury was just like they're like how about like end of July you could start running he's like how about July 1 and just like really pushing them a little bit to be like let's see what I can handle and I think he's gonna race a similar way of like why not let's see what I can handle yeah he said all the prime numbers except for one every single one of them seven then what what do you think about Jal or no like anyone else do you think Jal well I'll I'll stay on Geron for a second I and we got it on video but there's that amazing scene I think right in champe lock where Jim is making that definitive final pass on Geral and you know in this age of social media if I was someone like Geral I'd probably have that you know on my desktop before every single key session in the lead up to UTMB just recreating that moment and being like not this time around not this time it's I this is not happening I've learned my lesson so talk about a Target on someone's back I feel like anybody that was in Jim's wake in the second half of the race last year I guess Zach isn't here to to try again but um ger is and so I love that carrot in front of him the other person that I I'm really stoked on again this is all based on primary experience talked about it in the Discord but I'm a big admirer of aan um he his Hard Rock he made hard rock look like not the PHD level race that it is he made race he walked into the gym and just like was like all right what's next are we like going on a bike ride or something it was insane and like when I think about the air apparance for this race people challenging Jim and Katie besides jeral uh it's it's a really in there for me and I I think people might look at his results and be like you know what happened to Maxi like you know why aren't you also winning elsewhere I just think he's like a 100 mile Mountain specialist and there's also something to be said about peing at the right time I hate to bring up Lance Armstrong but like Lance he every year was about the tour to France for like six or seven years and I think he'll start to see something like that in our sport uh and I feel like you know aelan is probably doing what he needs to do to be ready for this race in the same way that Tom Evans is probably not losing sleep over not winning lavaro but still feeling like he could win UTMB uh aelan to me it's aurelan Tom jeral and Jim I don't see Tom as a a person to front run the race no not to front not to front run yeah but like as a favorite to win absolutely yeah I think um first I want to correct you on your prime numbers 2357 my bad I'm sorry like literally none of the ones you mentioned um but yeah Tom I think it is fails at public I never made it trig okay I never made it past trig oh no we suck again uh but I think something that Tom mentioned in was it his like no stone unturned YouTube video was just about how he felt like he raised UTMB a little like arrogantly uh last year and that this time around he's going to race a bit more patiently um and kind of run more his race which I think will be interesting um totally agree with you about aelan Finn I think 100 mile specialist he knows what he needs to do at this distance I thought it was uh funny I think he recently took a Jim straa CR on course and I don't know if the French translation into English was entirely accurate but it was like something like sorry Jim you will take revenge soon yeah I thought that was pretty cute I did like that I've got another name to throw in the potential front runner bucket Dimitri MV yeah yeah AG worried about his nutrition after 100K and I've also heard he's not using poles for this race which is a huge have you seen those quads does he even need poles it's true he has internal poles maybe he'll just like break a couple trees out of the ground and just like but about nutrition well I just know except for TDS you know whatever it was six or seven years ago uh my understanding is that in really anything above the 100K distance it's been it's been a struggle for him to like dial in his nutrition and maybe you know that's something that's been at the Forefront these past couple months but I've just heard Rumblings that like you know it that's the limiter and if he can get past that like watch out but okay well if we get a good weather day you know that that helps a little bit um but also front running and like burning mattres from the get-go that does not help the nutrition um side of things either so uh but I could totally see him trying and then I could also totally see him tying which was another another hot take yeah what are the chances that we see hand holding in the top 10 at UTMB this year oh I can't wait to get I can't wait to get into the predictions we'll hold off um Al actually you know I think we should let's since we didn't spend a lot of time on it on the women's side Maybe we do less of like the field analysis more of our prediction categories on the men's side um let's start with most surprising top 10 selection I'm going pal Capel you mentioned his breaking 20 hours project you know four or five years ago he's had a really rough go of it these last three to four years so much so that you like it's like one of those names it's like you remember him from the past for greatness but like is it just the memory uh and I believe I don't I'm not saying he's going to get in the top three or or win this race but I could see him meeting his Fitness where it's at running a really tactical race and breaking into the back half of the top 10 and he's my surprising selection because I think in previous years it was like is he winning Podium or is he bust and I think this is one of the years where it's just like veteran race runs into the top 10 okay okay who you got my surprise you know maybe even most improved as well from last year is uh Teo tosson oh nice Teo I think Tim Tim's gonna run himself into the top 10 with like a classic uh like just like happy Good Vibes race like I just I just have so many like the the picture of Tim at UTMB that I remember is like backwards snapback hat t-shirtt and like Hoka dirt biking gloves for just like the entire race and getting third and I'm like if if if Tim is finds those vibes for for this race which I feel like he's been getting closer to that you know in the last few years of kind of his rebuilding journey of running um the I believe the fitness is there um you know we talked about how how he he got in a great western states training block and then what did he get to do he got to pace Rod you know he got to like be there and see it without absolutely going deep to the well and trashing himself like as an actual participant in the race but he got to like be in it and like he was so fired up when he was done pacing rod and like that's got to count towards something yeah and something along those lines too is something that Tim like has had trouble nailing in recent years has been his nutrition and what better person to Pace at Western States than somebody yes who has just completely overhauled and nailed their nutrition in the last two races and like executed pretty perfectly because of nailing nutrition uh so I think that's got to be a good piece um that's got to give Tim some feel-good points yeah I think so MTH is hot right now Mammoth is so hot right now and I think Tim is at his best when he is under the radar or doubted and not put on this pedestal of like okay here's the two-time UTMB Podium finisher Tim TS and what's he gonna do this year it's like I think he's had there's been enough time between where he just gets to have fun again and there's no like there's no strings touch he could have a not great race and nothing changes about his legacy this is all additive at this point it's just it' just be cool to see like oh back in 2018 he podium in oh like 2024 like you know log and whatever seventh or eth place finish that'd be an amazing storyline yeah the uh what was no thought's Gone thought's Gone moving on and it's gone um next category Dark Horse performance I took a pretty liberal interpretation of this for my picks they're I actually extended this to talk about the top 20 cuz in the same way you know you hear 200 is the new 100 I think top 20 at UTMB both on the women's and the men's side is going to become the top 10 the new top 10 in future years and there's a couple people who I think will strategically Target the top 20 and not necessarily the top 10 and they'll get there because they're not trying to run a top 10 Race this is a this is a left field selection but I'm I'm saying I'm saying Canyon Woodward here for a top 20 finish if you look at Canyon's history at UTMB for yes we Canyon 47th in 2022 28th in 2023 and I'm convinced that there is a different mindset and approach to this race when you're thinking top 20 I believe Canyon has the fitness to run under 24 hours and so he is my Darkhorse pick to be a part of that American contingent that when we say the depth was deep we talk about like not just represented in the top 10 but like there was depth throughout the top 20 top 30 a lot of people crack in sub 24 I think he's one of the people leading the charge yeah and I know I had France and all caps on my sheet and I will like I could discuss all the nice Frenchmen who will be here too but like there's a good contingent of like deep American men running this year that might not be your Podium contenders but very well could be in your like five through 15 spots uh like and like I think one of those who I think could be a dark horse um if it all comes together on race day for him is Jeff mavo um who was second at Broken Arrow this year without much of a taper and has been putting in Monster training I really hope it like absorbs in his taper and he shows up like nice and mentally refreshed and feeling good um and I know he had like some odd motion sickness issues um with some headlamp running at uh was it Madera this year so I think he's working on solving those but one of his backto back toback training runs that he went on um recently like maybe a week or two ago was like a 35 mile with 11k 38 miles with 11k and then 23 miles with 10K uh and he's been doing these like two to three weeks back to back with like 25 hours with like 30 to 40K verts so he's putting in some of like the heftiest training I've seen and I think he uh he surprised a lot of people with his um sier and all race last year I think he was top 15 there so I think he's somebody that could surprise a lot of people if it all does come together on race day for him I think that's a great take um yeah he like the fit he's almost like like rod in the sense where it's like the fitness is there the training is there the mentality is there what are the last few little tweaks that need to get made on race day for all of that to actually show next category I've got most so most likely to surprise and I adjusted mine to say most likely to surprise parentheses the eury committee Drew Homan Drew Homan speaking of left field Drew home run there is not a race that Drew Homan does Leah he's kind of like you in in many respects and that he you can just count on him maybe he's he's also could be a booket pick for people here he's incredible he's incredibly consistent I don't have him on the podium or you know winning this race but damn sure I have him inside the top 10 and I have him most likely to surprise because I have a feeling there's probably uh 40% of the EO committee that's like oh man have you heard about this guy so like Drew who H Holan are you saying H um one thing I will say about Drew though is I bet we see a slightly more aggressive Drew than we have in past big races because he has the opportunity to take down Jim and that was like one of his main reasons for running worlds last year he was like so motivated to just go toe-to-toe with Jim in the mountains wow I don't know if he'll be aggressive necessarily though like I could see him queuing off of somebody like Dimitri MV who he's I think he's raced before like Cape Town um and somebody that he's performed similarly to in other races I don't know if I could see him racing like super aggressively though I guess when I say aggressive I don't mean like trying to break the field early but like I think he'll I'm I'm sure we will see a men's lead pack develop early on and say I predict we see Drew in that pack like yeah silently stalking at the back of the pack but there yeah so I guess a question is like last year we probably we saw a decent amount of American men in the top 10 I think three um if we were to see three again which American men would they be I mean Jim yeah yeah Jim uh I mean Ben demon the other name do you think I think probably more like I don't think so yeah I think yeah one or two American men in the top 10 and then the rest are Frenchmen and then everyone else is from France okay what if we have Deja Vu from the 2022 Western States Forest Hill live stream but it's at UTMB it's at champe lock and it's some some actively trying to break Tom and it's Drew hullman oh oh man that'd be cool he like you will not untie that shoe somebody we haven't talked about yet is H Matthew Blanchard what's yes what's his status um I know he's Strava darkish I believe he does a lot of um cycling and he just ran the peoples Marathon at um the Paris Olympics which is pretty cool and did a stage race in the Alps at the end of July um something I saw that was cool it seems like he was using that stage race to work on like two to three hour blocks of effort um to work on his speed a bit so kind of similar to um what Tom was talking about with just like being well-rounded and having the little components that you focus on in the buildup uh but we yeah got to remember that he's a person that challenged Killian at UTMB um with his then second place finish and then was fourth year at UTMB last year so curious to see after States after Western States yeah it was like it was a tired fourth yeah and before so he's fast yeah I can't help but think Matthew Blanchard will absolutely just be up there yeah book end it wait we need your surprise picks Leah who's your surprise pick this year for any reason well I kind of said Jeff but that was like Dark Horse yeah surprise I guess this isn't a surprise Ludo is in that top 10 like not that too but like he just did hard rock that was a big effort I think the biggest surprise for me was seeing that he did a 50 mile what was it like 50 miles and then like 30 miles then 30 miles and his training covering the entire UTMB course in three days like three weeks after hard rock L lud just loves the M oh wait no I do have a favorite do you guys have like a favorite moment of your research for this episode because I do and let me look through my notes see mine is Ludo made a reel on August 11th um from his run from champe Lock to Shaman and the audio is Forever Young and I just love lud much so I think like I think that is what Ludo is he's Forever Young he's crushing it he knows he's crushing it um and I think we'll see a really solid performance and a solid double of hard rock UT from I think one of my favorite people in this race that can be its own statement and then continued to follow their training has been Mike mcmonagle oh like one monster training block two very well documentation of said monster training block yeah three best training partner ever yeah and and budding photographer yeah it's been it's been a really good training block and uh luckily I've been invited on like 75% of the runs that we've done together so I've had a a nice a nice eye into what goes into it and hopefully I don't fail fail him too bad uh crewing him so yeah I'm excited to excited to see Mike just run up on people start destroying fools like is Mike GNA run with a camera and like take pictures of all the souls that he crushes no I wish wait you do think like I I think he'll be like in the mix of the women's race a good bit so I think he'll have a lot of fun and we'll probably get to see him on the live stream if he just hangs out in the women's race and hopefully they're doing a good job covering the women in the race and not I was gonna say like the case yeah no more wheels of cheese please please Mike's a fast media guy he'll be H in the media race F media fast media guy for sure Ludo most likely to surprise our modern understanding of genetics um all right uh let's see here rookie of the year so they've never run UTMB mine is Bo baronian he's been an absolute artist at CCC the last couple years Super consistent there and making the step up finally to UTMB not much more to say just super talented knows the last 100K of the course 50k of the course super well and uh it's great so he's mine you got Le that's who I've got okay give me Shen Josh Shang oh yeah like he's he's run really well um at CCC and making making the jump up to UTMB maybe feels like somewhat complete with the CCC Journey um so you know qualifies for this rookie category excited to see what Shen what Shen throws down and has been has been a very exciting racer I've really enjoyed especially when he's not Strava dark too been one of the most fun people to follow on straa um from a training standpoint and yeah he's been very he's been really consistent in terms of just racing the last few years two more here before we get to Podium winner picks uh most improved or comeback Runner so at least they've run utimi before I'm gonna take the most improved angle here and I'm gonna give a lot of credit to even like single place movements I'm going Arthur Joo bouan I think he's been ninth here before and maybe seven but he actually backtracked but improved his time a little bit so I have him finishing somewhere in the middle of the top 10 in that like fifth to sixth range and I think I mean anytime we move up even a spot in the top 10 at UTMB on either side it's huge so for that reason he's my most improved at UTMB and he did the um back to back to back 50 3030 training runs with Ludo uh circum navigating all of Mount Blanc so I mean if L that was my favorite find in the research yeah uh got um well I mean I kind of had it like doubled up with with with our our boy Teo tosson for most improved because you know he had dnfs in 19 21 22 and then a 61st last year so to be way up there you know into the top 20 this year that's that's some solid Improvement um the other person who I think we are going to see is a huge Improvement just because they dnfed last year as Ben demon yeah um I know finny is one of your favorites from a writing standpoint um and you know the I I I enjoy the angle at which he takes the training for this race the way he sees this sport um and then and then writes about it uh I don't know it's kind of fresh it's cool I like it and you know I don't think is is performance last year was indicative of you know the performance that he can put down so I bet we see a huge amount of learnings from last year and um you know he's had some solid race I think he's performed better this year leading up to UTMB than last year um you know they were I think Podium finishes on all of his races last year leading up to UTMB but I think this year's were a little bit bigger stages which helps a lot when you go into UTMB because you know that's one of the things is like it's it's weird to be running in a pack of 50 people who all have like eight pound backpacks on normally you're by yourself if you're wearing that sort of gear um and it's just strange uh it's foreign so I think this level of competition is going to be less foreign to him this year and that's going to you know ease the pressure a little bit and give that opportunity to to Showcase that sort of Fitness yeah I agree and I think um something we saw with him this year is like I love how transparent he is about his training um it does seem like he is indeed putting all of his eggs in the UTMB basket this year and really building with his races with the specificity and recognizing the little pieces that he needs to work on so like for example he's one of the few athletes I saw throwing down track workouts in his training of all the people that were sharing stuff on straa um and then I had a little quote that I liked describing his training from his vog that he's been um breaking his training weeks into like two or three day little bits where he like either goes for distance or ver so maybe he's targeting like you know 15,000 feet in two days so doing that over like a two-day period and then doing these like he's been calling them like endurance micro blocks um and then micro blocks has like easy runs for recovery but then anytime he feels fresh he's pushing the pace on the flats or Hills so just like recognizing all those little pieces that make UT TMV like the flats the hills like working them when you feel good not just settling into that like sloggy Rhythm um he did have another one of my like little favorite training days that I saw which was um 18 miles with 18,000 feet of climbing and that was facilitated by I think a gondola um where he did five repeats of like a probably 3,000 Foot Hill uh so that's pretty cool oh man the Quint topple VK yeah last category before our picks our booket pick pick so this is like your most confident prediction somewhere inside the top 10 again I broke the rules broke my own rules and my booket is there are going to be seven American men in the top 30 which I am very proud of I very proud if we can put seven American men in the top 30 well I was just thinking about like re I think I think there's seven American men that are going to run sub 24 but I think it's going to be so competitive that the top 30 is going to be under the the 24-hour mark and a couple we named Mike mcmonagle Tim tosson we talked about Canyon Jim Wamsley Jeff mavo couple those Cody Lind Cody Lind when he races is a pretty cons I mean he's had he's he hasn't run to his potential yet at UTMB but I believe in him and another local salt Laker Grant Barnett Grant had a super impressive speed goat um you know went one two with with Mike at grindstone the 100 mile race uh last fall and yeah I just I like the American contingent going over I think to play the game uh inside the top 10 uh Jim Walmsley on the podium it's probably my booket I think he's just this is a tactical smart mental year and I don't think he's gonna let the front of the race fall too far away from him so yeah I wanted to give a shout out to just the depth of performance my book it we will see 10 American men in the top500 gu guaranteed guaranteed I will not apologize for my [Laughter] patriotism we haven't really talked about I know we're about to say our like certain pick um I would say um Hest nurger from Germany is like most years would be a certain pick for me um three-time winner at Lao eighth place here last year um and then sixth a prior year but I think he suffered ailles injury in early August that he's been nursing but is you know back to normal training um kind of a question mark for me he's really solid and consistent when he is on um but yeah he might just be more of a question mark for me but I do think my more certained person um I think probably Arthur I agree with you Finn that's he seems like him or Baptist Baptist ran a great race last year um I think kind of more local to the Reg too based on what Tyler green has shared um he had such like a huge fan base out there and I think that can go a long way uh at a race like UTMB where you've got like hordes of people cheering for you at every aid station and just giving you energy out there so I could see um those guys being two of my five five or six Frenchmen we find in the top 10 this is one of those super uh like in the weeds things that happens at single track but whenever we put out the posts for these preview episodes and like you know what should we talk about historically there has been this random Dan Jones contingent that will just flood like same thing Sally McCrae sty just like flood our DMs like Dan Jones Dan Jones Dan Jones lately Miguel Areno we had 27 people just like name drop him in our DMS so apparently he's doing something like that we need to put respect on but uh I just wanted to get his name out there just to say we got it out there in the universe Miguel arenia we are Che good call Miguel did he ran Grand Canary I believe um another person I we should discuss now that I speak about gr Canaria is um Raul Octavio bhachi from Romania um little bit Hit or Miss but he did win Grand Canaria this year I think it was 18th at UTMB last year um wouldn't be surprised if that was somebody that snuck into the top 10 I think we'd want to see more of a grand Canaria performance out of him than a UTMB 2023 but I think um we're seeing Improvement um each year with him so maybe keep your eye on him as well all right predictions final predictions Podium and winner this was gut-wrenching for me uh my winner is Tom Evans because I am betting on freshness especially on the men's side freshness wins this race Tom Evans for the win I've got aelion in second I bought a lot of stock in him bought a lot of GameStop stock in Aion uh and then I've got Jim rounding out my Podium and that pains me because it leaves off many people but especially Jal I have Jal and fourth I'm gonna just note that I have Jal and fourth and it's an extremely tight men's race uh I see the entire top five going under 20 hours I see the entire top 10 going under 21 hours and I see that Podium spread historically or lately it's been like a twoh hour thing I think we're going to see like an 80 to 90 minute top 10 spread this year so we're really it's really tight like we're talking like a few minutes between each place from my view that's that good good breakdown good breakdown lot of numbers um I've got Jim wsy with the win Jim Jim with the the double first since since killi in 2011 on the men's side um I think it's going to happen in a similar fashion as Western States and I think it's going to be against uh Geron and I think it's going to come down to like the final climb where we see Jim you know running polls like really long polls up you know up the final ski slope just Primal screams and it's going to all get caught on the live stream and like that's that's where the winning move is going to get made um because I predicted the winning move for Hard Rock turns out he was in the first climb yes you did this year at UTMB on the men's side the winning move isn't going to happen until the last climb of the race and it's going to be Jim with it um I think it will be slower than last year which is why I think it's going to come down to like quote unquote like a kick um which then I've got Geron in second third place I've got Dimitri Mev and Tom Evans tying oh that's good that's good to screw over that's good Drew hullman who now gets fifth hey that's that's my top five and I don't think that's very unrealistic I don't think it is either um I there's a lot of like I feel like there well yeah there there should be more France in the top five there like I feel like Ludo and Matthew Blanchard got four in my top so yeah I figured Leo would go more more France heavy um but I was I'm just like I was just trying to paint like a very dramatic picture that's very absolutely chaotic and which will make for great TV amazing drama okay I got I got germon winning and I think the winning move is going to be made on the final descent when it's like all like slightly Rudy and Rocky and like you think you're home free but Geron just like floats so fast on that stuff um I think yeah that would be so sick and I would love to see it um so yeah we got germon winning Jim in second aurelan in third yes so Jim's in this like four Frenchman sandwich here um aurelian in third Matthew Blanchard in fourth and then Ludo doing Ludo Forever Young things in fifth we got just have Jim in this strangle hold you just have to say it's a really thin pancake I will never never break my arm he's like maybe just really really thin pancake yeah I could just see like Jim just giving Geron like a little love tap and Geron be you spilled my m y oh man oh I can't wait for the Ricky Bobby to come out this race that's I like that I like that top five Leah that's legit yeah thanks that's legit also also a very realistic top five Kinda Yeah yeah I would say so yeah like the amount of like permutations are five people that will definitely be in the top 10 for what it's worth you could make like three or four different top fives with all completely different people and it like wouldn't be that L Ludo Chris oh man that's that was good that one just happened on accident I want to get uh miscellaneous overall final thoughts from both you before we go but uh thanks to everyone that has tuned in watching on YouTube listening on the podcast players I know we went long it always reminds me probably in Futures we should just do like a entirely unique women's preview men's preview because this race is just so huge Leah Brett thank you so much Brett starting with you any final thought excitement whatever that you want to leave the good people with um I think I think we're going to see less uh less concern regarding time and more concern just regarding racing both the men's and women's side um you know I think we're going to see more packs of people longer and you know people then actively trying to break one another later on in the race which uh is just going to lend to you know one uh like more condensed Fields but also just like really exciting racing later on and um I also think that's going to lead to I think we're still going to see a good amount of Carnage at UTMB always okay yeah how about Yulia um I think there's a good couple race going on we got kti and germon Katarina and Dimitri and then ragna debats and per arel so that's at least three couples that I'm aware of so some good like partner husband wife little Duos in there that I think could make for some some fun battles but oh wow balloons I do think that Katie and germon will likely bring it home in the coup's category though yeah neither of us had them both winning that's true I yeah I could see that happening despite putting Ruth in first place I'm laughing because I was trying to find a good Ricky Bobby quote on the internet and uh couldn't find the one I was looking for so I'll just say that this is going to be an amazing race I cannot wait and uh yeah thanks to both of you for being here this is great