Netanyahu denounces the British government | James O'Brien - The Whole Show

[Music] this is LBC from Global leading Britain's conversation with James O'Brien 3 minutes after 10 is the time you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC where I I it's been a while since we had a phone in I think about matters Middle Eastern or or or matters regarding Israel and Gaza but of course we've been catching up with events there on a relatively regular basis I I feel and listen this is how it's going to work today I'm going to tell you what what I think I know that's how it works most days but I am going to tell you what I think and then you are going to tell me what you think specifically about the UK government's decision to suspend arms licenses for a relatively small fraction of the total number of of licenses with regards to equipping Israel and it focuses on um the kind of equipment or it focuses on equipment that carries a clear risk of being used to commit serious violations of international law um I'd remind you also that there are currently um warrants issued or um the Court's prosecutor the the chief prosecutor is seeking warrants for Benjamin Netanyahu the defense minister yoav Gallant three Hamas leaders um all of whom he uh Kareem Khan wants to uh question with regards to war crimes and crimes against humanity in both the Gaza Strip and Israel so I think this day has been coming for some time I think this day has has been inevitable I think I think today red lines are drawn because conversations that we have had together and and coverage that we have followed have tracked a a sort of attrition of opinion I remember the very first time we started using the word proportionate and of course it's coroller disproportionate in the context of what Israel would do could do should do in response to the October the 7th atrocity the October the 7th terror attack and I don't know where you would position the pivotal moment at which you began to fear that support fought for the idea that Israel could and should do whatever she wanted whatever Israel wanted to do with regards to Palestinian civilians now you had people in the war cabinet you had people in netanyahu's Senior Team people with convictions for uh sort of incitements people with really hideous CVS something that's still underreported in the UK um essentially saying that there is no such thing as an innocent Palestinian uh even one calling for the oppositing the possibility of dropping a nuclear bomb on the Gaza Strip and I don't know whether it was naivity or idealism that led many of us to think that that would never move to the mainstream that these opinions were Fringe even though Benjamin Netanyahu relied increasingly upon the support of these ghouls for his own grip on power something that's become I'm afraid absolutely irrefutably clear in more recent months that netanyahu's um pandering too extremist in his own government was more important than either International opinion diplomatic support or the lives of tens of thousands of innocent Palestinians so those of us who've tried from the very start to reject the idea that we should feel more pain or more sorrow an Israeli death than a Palestinian Death at a a Muslim death than a Jewish death those of us who've tried to walk a very um difficult tight rope find ourselves statistically hidebound you know 40,000 dead people in Gaza 1,200 people killed by Hamas on on October the 7th hostages still remaining but hostages now widely considered to have been abandoned Andor sacrificed by Benjamin Netanyahu and that is the first pivotal point you will struggle to find anybody well no you won't struggle to find anybody you can always find somebody holding an opinion but you'll struggle to find anybody who would argue against the idea that Benjamin Netanyahu is now widely considered in his own land to have sacrificed or abandoned the hostages which makes a complete mockery of the claim that the killing of the Palestinians was a necessary lever with which to secure the release of the hostages as as months passed he edged ever closer to the line where he would say out loud that even if the hostages were all released we will still carry on and then of course he said it but still supporters here would argue that all all all they have to do is release the hostage and everything will be fine that's not true that arguably has never been true because if this ends netanyahu's grip on power loosens and quite Pro probably is released so that left I think allies and it's pretty much only the UK and the USA left when you look at votes the UN or um the international not votes at the international criminal court but coverage that left governments that were supportive of Israel in in a in a fairly hideous dilemma it led the American Administration to a place where they were essentially saying please stop killing Palestinians but here are some more bombs and in fact possibly the most cfar esque moment I can remember involved them saying well we're not going to give you the really big bombs but here are some smaller ones and you know to be horribly cynical I I presume that five small bombs can do the same sort of damage as one bomb that's five times the size of the small Bond but that's how mad it became that's how cfar esque the situation has become because of the reluctance to take meaningful steps steps against Israel in pursuit of a ceasefire or in the absence of a ceasefire somehow reducing their ability to kill Palestinians or as David Lamy described it yesterday breach or commit serious violations of international law so if I tell you off the top of my head that the chief Rabbi is very upset about it and Amnesty International are very upset about it for completely different reasons the chief Rabbi in this country thinks that the um uh the move beggar belief and somehow encourages uh Hamas or or he uses the phrase our shared enemies whereas the chief executive of Amnesty International UK describes the restrictions as too limited and riddled with loopholes they've been calling continuously for a ceasefire to allow humanitarian Aid into Gaza where incidentally polio has just returned for the first time in 25 years so what David Lamy has sought to do is and this is as a consequence of a review that I think was begun under the last government he sought to identify the equipment that could conceivably used to commit serious violations of international law so immediately I can tell you that the chief Rabbi for example sir e Ephraim mvis will deny the possibility of Israel being in breach of international law and that's why these conversations and debates are so difficult because the IDE that terrorist atrocities are justified by the by the illegal occupation of of Gaza or or The Well of the occupied territories and the you can't ever build a bridge between those two positions of course terrorist atrocities are never Justified and of course Israel can be conceivably in breach of international humanitarian law but you will find people heavily embedded in these conversations who will deny one of those realities um so what the government has tried to do is draw a really difficult distinction between equipment that would be used by Israel to defend itself and equipment that could be used by Israel to break international law and that will include parts for fighter jets helicopters drones there are currently 350 export licenses to Israel this is important this isn't an opinion this is counting there are currently 350 export licenses in place between the UK and Israel how many do you think have been suspended 30 so 30 out of 350 it looks a little bit like nibbling at the edges it certainly doesn't send a message to Israel that we are going to curtail your ability to kill people it's simply says some of this stuff could and possibly has been used to commit serious violations of international law so we're going to try and specify and and identify which bits of equipment fall into that category and we're going to suspend the use of those the timing is is well I say that well the timing is fortunate for one of a better word given that six hostages were uh killed by hamus in the last couple of days but David lamy's explanation for that would be that he has to tell the House of Commons the findings of the report and the conclusions that he's arrived at at the first possible opportunity which he has which he has now done so what I want to try to do today with you is simply explore what has been done I I I mean I can see more clearly the argument that it hasn't gone far enough because it isn't going to mean a sudden cessation of Carnage in Gaza which is what I think all decent people want uh actually decent is a difficult word to use in that context some people who I think are decent probably even if they're not prepared to admit it to themselves probably would be comfortable with more death in Gaza because they are persuaded that that makes them more safe or that makes people in Israel more safe so decent is a difficult word to use but if you want the death to end or the death to be dialed down then what else do you do in the current context Benjamin Netanyahu is not interested in a ceasefire Benjamin Netanyahu is not really interested in the fate of the hostages this is the opinion of well for a start it's opinion of half a million Israelis who took to the streets a couple of nights ago so David Lamy has sought to draw a distinction between equipment that is used for self-defense and equipment that is used potentially or already to have breached international law and he's managed to upset everybody from the prim minister of Israel to the chief executive of Amnesty International um who are coming from from very different places when it comes to the desirability of a ceasefire let me read you also what the prime minister of Israel has said um days after Hamas executed six Israeli hostages you know it's a mark of how the media works I couldn't tell you how many Palestinians have been killed in the last 48 hours but I could tell you the names of the six Israeli hostages um days after Hamas executed six Israeli hostages the UK government suspended 30 arms licenses to Israel this shameful decision will not change Israel's determination to defeat Hamas a genocidal terrorist organization that savagely merged 1200 people on October the 7th including 14 British citizens Hamas is still holding over 100 hostages including five British citizens instead of standing with Israel a fellow democracy defending itself against barbarism Britain's misguided decision will only embolden Hamas Israel is pursuing a just war with just means taking unprecedented measures to keep civilians out of Harm's Way and comporting fully with international law this as of course the chief prosecutor in the international criminal court seeks an arrest warrant for the Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu but hey I guess you can just stick your fingers in your ears and go la la la la la la la uh in the context of contradictions like that and then they bring the Nazis into it just as Britain's heroic stand against the Nazis is seen today as having been vital in defending our common civilization so too will history judge Israel stand against Hamas and Iran's axis of Terror with or without British arms Israel will win this war and secure our common future so David Lamy has gone far enough to earn the possibly performative Fury of Benjamin Netanyahu and yet I don't think he's gone far enough for people who feel that the United Kingdom's government should not be propping up this regime anymore in other words he runs a very real risk of having disappointed everybody has he disappointed you if so why if not why not 0345 6060 973 is the number that you need the uh the official figure coming out of Gaza for the number of dead Palestinians stands at around 40,000 with over double that number injured most received wisdom uh accepts that that figure is likely much higher but simple brutal realities like not yet having Doug out of rubble makes it impossible to be more accurate the the nature of the British media is such that many people add at this point and I will too that these figures come from the uh Health the Palestinian health authority which is under the authority of Hamas but what most media figures in this country don't add is that there are no other sources available for these figures because Israel won't let journalists from Western news organizations into the Gaza Strip um for reasons that I think think a pretty blooming obvious but about which and around which we are nonetheless obliged to dance so David Lamy has tried to thread a needle has he succeeded 0345 6060 973 is the number that you need he's tried to thread a needle he's tried to say to and listen here's the here's the the thing that we danced around in the past and I think we are now right up against it the point at which you either put limits on what Israel can do when it comes to killing Palestinians or you don't that's what I meant at the beginning sorry I I I tried so hard to choose my words so carefully on this that I sometimes end up distracting myself so when I said at the beginning that we've been heading towards this moment since probably November of last year when the fears of what netanyahu's concept of proportionate might mean first began to crystallize we have now reached the position where you either think that the British government should intervene in any way to stop Israel doing whatever it wants to Palestinian civilians or you think that Israel should be free to do whatever it wants to Palestinian civilians I in pursuit of Hamas I think and that actually we can add that to the list is that where we are now you may think we've been there all along but we haven't in real terms the callers I've taken do you remember in the early days of this nightmare callers would say the one question they would refuse to answer was how many deaths would be too many do you remember how quickly we we happened upon we zoned in on that conundrum people whose support for Israel was part of their uh emotional Legacy part of their very identity and something that I wouldn't in a million years want to want to unpick or or attack but the need to defend Israel from the sort of events that we saw the atrocity that we saw in October the 7th leads people to potentially very difficult places and that's why the question of how many deaths would be too many 1,00 dead Israelis how many dead Palestinians would feel like justice or atonement how many or Revenge how many would have to die and you realize talking to people sensible decent people you realize that somewhere inside they they were prepared to contemplate the death of everybody in Gaza I don't know how you end up there but I think it's the job of the British government it's the job of a critical friend it's the job of a proper Ally to stop your friend your ally your partner when they're embarked on that sort of course that sort of Carnage 0345 6060 973 is the number you need and I I I I mean just something simple that's a bit relevant to some of the rhetoric knocking around in this country at the moment the collective punishment is a war crime the idea that people deserve to die because of things that have been done by completely different people is is one of the most difficult contradictions of War imaginable but when the Israelis site the Nazis in their condemnation of the UK government they forget that the Geneva Convention they forget that International law was framed in part to prevent the repetition of some of the things that the Allies did to the Germans uh the collective punishment if you like of German civilians the bombing for example of Dresden into borderline Oblivion some some of the motivation behind the Geneva Convention was was designed to limit to stay the hand of the forces that prevailed in the second world war and to prevent them from repeating some of the quotes tactics End quotes that they deployed in pursuit of Victory so it's a particularly disingenuous reference point in my opinion but obviously uh historically particularly when you're talking about Israel it's an incredibly powerful one so that's that's how I see it we've now reached the point where you either say I want the UK government to at least put up some resistance to Israeli policy in Gaza or I want Israel to be free to do whatever they want to continue to do whatever they want and David Lamy has has chosen aside what do you think about his decision hit the numbers now you will get through James O'Brien on LBC 25 minutes after 10 as the British foreign secretary suspends a small proportion of arms licenses to Israel have we reached the point if you object to this decision where you have to acknowledge that you don't think any Ally or you don't think Britain should play any role in trying to limit the Carnage in Gaza or can you see it differently if so 03456 06973 haa is in Dubai to kick things off haa what would you like to say hi James how are you very well on your um what I what I wanted to say is fundamentally in terms of um ending this war since about May the ceasefire negotiations have inherently become um about bigger question of the occupation primarily because this War uh broke the um the air of of deterence as a positive policy B in by the Israeli public over decades deterrent through the occupation and the aparte against Palestinians and now all of that is on the table that meaning that I'm going I'm going to be quite strict today in in in drawing everybody back to the question that I'm asking rather than going off on on on History lessons or political speeches do you approve or disapprove of what David Lamy has done uh I think it's a nonissue you cannot change I'm afraid the program you phoned yeah I understand I'm saying that can you answer you mind answering the question okay it doesn't go anywhere near enough because you have to change the cost benefit analysis and the cost benefit calculation for the Israelis in upholding this war the ongoing invasion in the West Bank and changing the question of occupation and it doesn't go far enough but David David Lamy can't do that David Lamy can use the tools at his disposal both diplomatically the question of weapon sales for example putting distance between themselves in the United States at the UN Security Council changing the position he literally has that's one of the one of the front pages today let me read it to you because it seems it seems I won't be able to find it now but um one of the front pages today distinctly and and and definitively describes this as a break with America I think that that is not in in fact actually happening and we haven't seen evence UK breaks with us to suspend 30 arms export licenses to Israel so what you just said you want him to do he has done I said diplomatically at the United Nations there are two parts of the foreign policy one is diplomatically the other is security has hasn't got the opportunity to do that until there's another opportunity to vote differently from America so in the meantime what can he do he can break with the Biden Administration on a significant part of their tightly coordinated policy towards Israel by announcing that it is suspending some arms export licenses owing to a clear risk that they might be used to commit or facilitate a serious violation of international humanitarian law I listen I can buy the argument that he hasn't gone far enough but you need to put Flesh on the bones of that contention okay well part of the things that he hasn't suspended are components for the F-35 jets that have been used regularly in RDA and are also part of intensifi campaigns in the West Bank my my understand is that he doesn't have the agency to do that because it's part of a global commitment Global commitment to keep Israel fully armed with jet a a global commitment to to build jets in conjunction with allies that's true but it can create is there any sense is there any sense for you of progress here because David Lamy is coming under attack in pretty vicious terms from everybody from the prime minister of Israel to the chief Rabbi in this country yes and and you you you you seem to be almost as cross with him as they are it's not about being cross it's really about this question of do we believe Britain has any power or do we not because has political power it doesn't it doesn't really have military power okay Grant one% it's a tiny tiny tiny proportion so does it have power yes it has political power sending a message okay if this isn't a big deal why is the response from Israel so strong because Israel has benefited from absolute impunity for so long so anything that goes against that measure of it is allowed to do whatever it wants without answering any questions so it is it is a meaningful intervention against the notion that Israel is allowed to do whatever it wants listen you've taken me up to the news and and um I I'm not going to apologize for being robust I I will insist that everybody focuses in upon the questions that we are asking but but I don't want you to go away feeling that you um that you were in any way curtailed you you you are not happy because you feel that the British government should have gone much further and so does Amnesty International so the countless people organizations institutions and and quite possibly countries up to and including allies but in in the context of the very specific move good or bad then good but could be better is a is a slightly wooly answer half past 10 is the time Thomas wats is here now with your headlines James O'Brien on LBC 10:33 is the time I sometimes wonder whether you think I exagger the polarity of this discussion you probably don't but here's a rather uh um startling illustration of it to two texts arrived both at 10:32 okay the first one you're right James Lamy has picked aide Israel genocide ethnic cleansing Mass displacement Collective punishment torture you name it he's on that side and at 10:32 another text come in saying starm and Lamy have just aligned them have just declared that they are anti-jewish so that's the that's a response to the same policy one contending that it renders the British government anti-jewish and one contending that it sees the British government Aline up in lock step with the Israeli regime which my texter accuses of all of the things that I just read out so what do you think about the decision and remember it's based upon a review called by David Lamy as soon as he arrived in the foreign office and the advises he has received is that there are 30 arms licenses in place which um carry an uh untenable possibility of facilitating breaches serious breaches of international law so I I one way you could break this down you're either in favor of international law or you don't think it should apply to Israel Holly's in Wimbledon Holly what would you like to say hi James good morning um I I think that the the UK's decision to suspend a very very small portion of the licenses to Israel is is largely a political statement I think it's virtue signaling do I agree with it no I do not but do I think it's going to make I mean if because the the UK international law is is the fulcrum upon which this opinion has to be formed isn't it so so why shouldn't the UK government SE seek to insist that Israel follows international law firstly Lamy has said quite clearly that the decision yesterday is not based on any findings that Israel has committ committed any breaches on international law in fact no true well well well particular with reference to the well you can't talk over me when you've made sweeping statements you must allow me you must allow me you can't say things that aren't true well Israel has made has taken extraordinary lengths to uphold international law no but you just said David Lamy hadn't identified areas in which it might have been broken and he has that's not what I said at all he said that it wasn't the correct Forum in order to judge okay so the areas the areas in the areas in which these concerns are most acute would include the ability of um Aid to get into the Gaza Strip and the treatment of detainees so so the equipment the licenses that have no the LI it's important that my listeners know the facts before we hear more rhetoric the licenses that have been lifted in the opinion of the foreign office advisers would be for equipment likely to facilitate abuses of of AIDS Ingress into the Gaza Strip or to facilitate abuses of detainees so that that those are some of the areas upon which David Lamy is basing his decision just for clarity James you refer to facts and I'm I'm also going to refer to facts in the last week Israel has provided the vaccine polio vaccines for 2.5 million people in Gaza now you you why polio back why polio backing it's it's that because of the humanitarian crisis there but that's not the humanitarian crisis can you please let me finish that you you owe a duty to your listeners to also allow me to finish you're going to be able to finish but what what's caused of the humanitarian crisis the current conflicts now why why are we focusing only on Israel in this conflict why are we that's a Sur that's a surreal question every convers but you can't you can't meish of course you're going to be able to finish hly but we're not focusing only upon the actions of Israel how many times this morning have you heard me mention the atrocity of October the 7th and the 1200 dead isra mention it well actually I'm I'm remember everyone else has been listening as well well absolutely but you just said I haven't mentioned it you just said I haven't mentioned it that's a lie words in my mouth said why are we focusing exclusively on the actions of Israel this is so no no no no well no let me finish my sentence you know stop saying things that aren't true you like what like that we're not mentioning the actions of Hamas or we're focusing exclusively on Israel or that David Lamy hasn't cited broken can allow me to discuss also the other fraction that is part of the contribution to what is happening in Gaza do we think that what do we think Hamas are some sort of yoga yo Yoga Retreat organization certainly not how does how does this prevent what do we think the IDF is a Holiday Camp well no absolutely not but shouldn't we be pledging some um support for the IDF who are who have sorry 350 arms licenses currently in place of Which 320 remain and you don't think we're showing support for the Israeli Defense Force I absolutely do but so why did you just ask why we ared because you well you you quote 40,000 dead Palestinians now let me why are you jumping around so much when everything you say I'm paying you the respect of addressing directly I don't think you are you're C okay so let's go back to the question of why don't we show support for the IDF could you explain to my listeners how 350 the arms licenses of Which 320 remain somehow constitutes an absence of support in your own words and in your own time that's absolutely not what I said everybody heard you say it okay well everyone can replay what we what this discussion this what would you like to jump randomly to next Holly I'm not jumping randomly to anything but you're the one that keeps cutting across my statements meaning I keep repeating them back to you and you keep denying that you've said it absolutely not 40,000 and Palestinians are dead you said how many of those do we think a Hamas combat so we're jumping there now so the question of do we approve or disapprove of what David Lamy has done you've now opened up six different conversational gambits and refused to justify any of them okay so should we go back to what what I think about David lamy's um decision yesterday okay I disagree with it why why because we should be pledging unwavering support to an a country an ally that is combatting what do we mean by unwavering to combating terrorism what do we mean by unwavering coming terrorism there are how many hostages in tunnels in you've done it again what do we mean by unwavering unwavering meaning that we we should be supporting Israel so is there anything Israel could do is there anything Israel could do which the UK government should disapprove of but why is the Israel a simple question everyone's heard me ask it everyone can hear you not answer it but what you well that's a disingenuous question no you use the word unwavering these these these rhetorical tactics don't work with me because I I'm listening to everything you say so this Gilly gashing and jumping all over the place tell me what unwavering means figes unwavering yes support yes what does it mean what why why review the licenses what does unwavering mean why why review the licenses because they involve equipment that could be used to breach international law next question what does unwavering mean be what does unwavering mean unwavering means complete support so there is absolutely no circumstance in which the UK government should reject or oppose Israel's behavior in Gaza absolutely well thank you why did it take so long to get there so how many deaths is too many deaths I said that in the beginning how many deaths no you didn't everybody heard what you said in the beginning you said in the beginning there were no grounds for David Lamy doing what he'd done now final question final question final question final question how many deaths is too many there have already been too many deaths on both sides but we have to have unwavering support for more deaths what this well how how is this how is this um pre answer a question with a question unwavering support for more deaths but there have been too many deaths talk me through that talk me through the logic of that how do we how do we release the hostages how do we stop by agreeing a ceasefire and how do we agree a ceasefire by getting rid of Benjamin Netanyahu and letting people who want a ceasefire get into power in Israel oh let me take you back to the question of how many deaths is too many at what point at what point at what point at what point at what point I'm sorry this isn't going as well as you expected but you need finally Holly to answer the question answer the question how many deaths all the hostages should be released immediately Youk tell me finally how many deaths Holly how many deaths I've said that since October the 7th how many deaths never never we've established that there's something wrong with your ears but how we've established that your ears don't operate in ways that most people recognize final question at what point will you say what the conversation I will I will keep doing it because you owe a duty to your can't do it can you there are 40,000 you can't say I don't care how many Die voted for I don't want to say that words in my mouth because that's not how I tell me how many then that's not how I feel how many is too many I'm not going to put a number on it because there isn't a number there should can't say it can you won't say it what should I be saying what would you like me to say J the truth which is what how many deaths would be too many for you personally you see for me none none so you want it to stop now I would love it so we should take weapons away from Israel so you're in favor of the suspension of arms licenses no no no no no we shouldn't take weapons away from Israel The Killing will continue and the support will be unwavering and tens of thousands more people will die James Hamas exist do you understand that what's a silly question exist Hamas exist is this what you're reduced to now shouting Hamas exist at me but why are you not talking about capabilities 1 million deaths why are you not talking mil death capabilties we're talking about the suspension of arms licenses to Israel I spent 20 minutes explaining it this morning but let's not go back to the state of your ears Let's find let's conclude with the question of 1 million is that too many or would you still be calling for unwavering support James why are you repeating the same question over and over you haven't it said I did I said no one million dead and you'd still say unwavering support I said no death I said No Death 1 million dead would you still call for unwavering support Hammer why are you not talking about Hammer what do you think we are talking about we're talking about the suspension of arms licenses to Israel because they are dealing with Gen this is what happens this is what happens when you're not allowed to ride rough shot over reality old child you can keep doing this you can keep doing this but everybody listening Gaza everybody listening can hear you talking about that that is we're talking about the latest development in the story and you can't deal with it because you have unwavering support for the killings in Israel for the killings in Gaza whether it's 40,000 400,000 1 million or 2 million and that is what you mean by unwavering you won't listen to me I couldn't really have I couldn't have listened any harder I think you're the one that need you're the one that needs to start listening to me and then you'd realize that I've heard everything you've said and I've paid you the compliment of responding to it and you have struggled to cope no death it's 10:45 James O'Brien on LBC 10:48 is the time you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC so have we reached the point where you have to admit that you have unwavering support for whatever Israel does in Gaza regardless of how many people die or you don't or you believe that measures should be taken to restrict Israel's capability of for example serious violation of international humanitarian law particularly with references to the 30 licenses that have been suspended um particularly with reference to the Ingress of Aid into Gaza and the treatment of detain needs these are the government has said key factors in its decision to suspend the arms licenses so if you're going to ring me and misrepresent established reality and then get very very cross when you're asked to account for your misrepresentations uh I'm not going to let you it's really simple I'm not going to let you 0345 60609 73 is the number you need if you want to try Ross is in Fulham Ross what would you like to say hi James um has lame gone far enough no I don't believe he has um and I think it it summed up you you read out a statement and I I didn't catch who the author was but it concluded with Israel will win this war and that was that was from the the office of the Prime Minister of Israel that was from Benjamin netanyahu's statement this morning well there you go so if they're going to win the war uh without our assistance and we have serious concerns about international human rights Etc why are we continuing to support well that is the dichotomy isn't it that is the the sort of conundrum caught up in a police stop dropping bombs but here are some more bombs for you to drop it is the sort of cfes absurdity but are you letting the perfect be the enemy of the good because lamy's advice is specific to Major breaches potential breaches of international law and the suspension of all arms licenses would compromise Israel's ability to defend itself not not I mean from Hamas exclusively but also of course from Iran and from hisbah but does that statement from the prime minister's office State We Will Win Regardless so that would imply that they have a stockpile of all the Weaponry that they require no no it wouldn't it doesn't it doesn't do that it's a rhetorical flourish from the prime Min from from netanyahu's office I don't think we can o over overanalyze it as proof of stockpiles of weapons but here it says it says with or without British arms Israel will win this war and secure our common future I don't know that he could say that about American Arms for example but just statistically in the context of British arms winning this war and securing our common future is is is obviously debatable but carry on killing Palestinians is not they can carry on killing tens of thousands of Palestinians however many our last caller would be comfortable with um with or without British arms that's just true so so let us withhold until we are clearer on the picture of what is being used well he thinks he is clear I mean he he would and and I I think you know it's a bit of a glib phrase letting the perfect be the enemy of the good but you look at the fury that David lamby's relatively mild rebuke to Israel has uh has provoked and you feel I therefore feel a little bit almost uh um sympathetic towards him when people like you and the first caller queue up to attack him for not having gone far enough do you see what I mean look at how diplomatically difficult it is to do even what he has done well there are always going to be there's always going to be for and against and a lot in between yes um and and and but if if this war and that in my opinion is a a media guided misnomer if that is to be one without our contributions let it be done so let us be clearer on exactly what the legal situation is as far as and again uh and forgive me James you will put me straight on this but whether or not this is a war or a land grab or whatever there there's many terms associated with it um but salting the Earth and demolishing properties and what have you there needs to be a clearer picture as to where we stand as a nation in regards to a foreign war and our assistance in it and let's be honest but this is surely a step in the right direction a step towards what you describe it is but but if you're going to be you know if you're going to be beaten with a stick for for for reducing the suppliers by less than 10% Go the whole hog and let us understand what the liabilities are via international law before we continue to make the same mistakes again and of course the um attempts by the international criminal court to issue arrest warrants for Benjamin Netanyahu and and and Hamas leaders um are dismissed out of hand by by all of them I presume I haven't seen the response the official responses of the Hamas leaders but we know what Benjamin Netanyahu has said about the prosecutor's accusations against him a disgrace an attack on the Israeli military an attack on all of Israel and once again a vow back in um August of last year to press ahead with that war and and you're right to pick up on that word at what point does it cease to be a war I don't know but um some people would argue that that point was passed some time ago here's something that I don't think has happened before a comment from our first caller on the contribution of the second caller haa has U messaged me to say when I talked about Israel's impunity on the radio a few minutes ago the caller who followed me basically confirmed exactly what I meant she isn't an outlier it is a policy that has been internalized by citizens of the state over decades it's become part of some Israelis identity and and that that internalization is the thing that you try to tease out which is saying there are no innocent people in Gaza and therefore there is no limit on how many of them should die in pursuit of our goal whether it be the eradication of Hamas which can still be argued or the prioritization of Hostage release which in all conscience can't be argued at all um 1055 is the time you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC um you you again have to confine the conversation to the Realms of reality so saying things that aren't true even if you're then going to object furiously at being uh held to account or or pulled to task saying things that aren't true demonstrably untrue in pursuit of justifying the continuing Carnage this is one corner of the British media where that is not allowed Adam's in woking Adam what would you like to say um I actually don't think L's gone far enough I'm like the call of before I think we suspend everything um I'm Jewish Israeli I've got a joint passport okay um I went um both Israel pal Adam I don't I don't I don't want to patronize you but take your time you s it's a it's a an emotional issue this I want you to have plenty of time to say whatever it is that you want to say so there's no hurry here all right okay um I'm part of the Jewish block that goes on the marches yes um you can imagine the names I've been called by my own fellow Jews I've been called a cappo I've been called a self-hating Jew Lamy has not gone far enough never again means never again to all us it shouldn't be happening it is possibly and possibly a genocide and we are supporting it not everyone in this country is but our government is and and can you derive any comfort from the fact that lamb has now done this because I think we can all agree it wouldn't have happened under the previous administration oh definitely not definitely not um I agree it's the first step but it needs to be many more steps because you know and I know that that PM in Israel is not going to give up you only have to see his speech in the um in America and to realize that America would just keep supporting him no matter what that's where the impunity comes from it's it's not just the internalization of of some Israeli ideology that that there is no limit on what we can do to defend ourselves and it's there's a historical rationale for that that is obviously sympathetic in many ways but it is the message coming from the White House whoever is in it oh yeah definitely that we will never stay your hand and David Lamy albe it in a in a relatively modest way has broken with that tradition hasn't he which he which he we I'm thankful he has it's to me it's a start but it needs to go further and we the one thing I don't understand and I have never understood it ever since I was a kid how come Israel is all what has it ever done for us as British people well K there's a question I wasn't expecting to be to be asked to all a bit all g a bit Monty Python I mean I I think the historical need to defend the Jewish people it it it goes back I it goes back beyond the Second World War it goes back beyond the shower but I I I think that that is a large part of the uh historical equation isn't it to provide a Homeland a place of Safety and Security and and the International Community to to help protect it I've got I had um relativ in Israel yes on October the 7th on October the 10th they flew straight out as apparently almost half a million Jews have flown home and that's not an option open to many Palestinians they don't have that no they don't I'm very much just you know we need to bring an end to this £2,000 bombs that's not self-defense and I don't really view it as a war I view it more as a conflict because the other side um you know then I will ask you this then because you may be better qualified to answer it than anybody else is is do you see what some of my correspondents see that reluctance and we probably heard it with an earlier caller that reluctance to actually say out loud there is no limit on how many deaths I'm prepared to count inance in pursuit of an almost an almost idealized notion of protection and and defense because the idea that you're going to eradicate what drives Hamas by killing all these by killing so many parents is is is to me it's absurd so how how many people do you think are not I think there I think there's been too many on both sides of course there have you know I mean um but at the end of the day um the way I see it Israel has had its foot on Gaza for when did they pull out 2000 whatever and they say oh we've had nothing to do with it you can't get in and out of um Gaza without approval and and then you see that you see that as a as such a such a stark contrast that it it it it kind of as almost every other part of the conversation a few people picking you up on the claim about people flying out of Israel I don't have the figures in front of me but I'm I'm happy to to to see both arguments put forward what one person claimed 300,000 flew have have returned to Israel since October the 7 Joe tells me so so I so I don't know but how I mean among the people that criticize you and for people who don't know cppo is a particularly I don't know I haven't looked at that so I'm not going to no I know I'm just I'm putting both both opinions out there because I don't have the the the full detail in front of me may have it by by the end of the end of the next hour but the thing I I just want to pin down the people that call you names from your own sort of community if you like and cappo is a particularly vicious one because that I think refers to Jewish people who collaborated with the Nazis in the actual death camps is that right I think that's where that word comes from oh is he got yeah so how how WID how widespread you know that's where it comes from you take an extremist member of netanyahu's cabinet who essentially says there's no such thing as an innocent Palestinian how many people do you think or what I can't say numbers but how widespread do you think that view is among people who would never actually say it out loud I think we've got a massive delay on the line now which is um profoundly unhelpful Adam thank you it's 11:01 James O'Brien on LBC it's 5 minutes after 11 I I'll read you this from Donald uh because you need light especially in The Darkest Hours don't you Donald's just texted to say I'm sure that hour has brought us all closer together James I presume you need to be careful Donald if you got your tongue so far into your cheat you're in danger of biting it off um can I make a small confession to you I I have an Impulse sometimes to condemn when I hear stories of children who would once have been described as feral and I have to catch myself I have to remember that nobody is born feral or or nasty or racist but from the first times that I started doing this job the stories and I've changed a lot over the years for for a whole variety of reasons and and sometimes I think I possibly become a bit predictable in pushing back against traditional tabloid tropes maybe some of them are true even a stop clock can be right twice a day but when I hear a story about a 12-year-old behaving in an abominable f fashion there there is a little bit of me that becomes authoritarian just a tiny little flowering if you like of a Victorian School Master we talked about this a lot because it's one of the things that came out in my therapy was the the fact that you uh convince yourself that some of the brutalization you've been exposed to is not only acceptable but also a net positive I used to say for example that that beating children corporal punishment is the only language that some children understand and I know that because I used to be one of them so I'm rather happily fortunate that when I started as a broadcaster there was no such thing as YouTube there were no viral Clips but if there were it wouldn't be that hard uh to find clips of me holding often honestly sometimes not honestly because I used to do debate shows where sometimes you'd just be handed the position that you'd have to defend or attack but on corporal punishment I've told this a few times my inner Victorian is worryingly still occasionally worryingly close to the surface because of all the reasons that we've that I've shared with you over the last couple of years that that need if you've been brutalized as a child by adults beaten in my case formerly by teachers by a teacher a Headmaster you need to convince yourself that it didn't hurt that it doesn't hurt and the the moment that you acknowledge that it did all the good stuff starts happening all the all the sort of positivity and authenticity floods back in to your heart and and your soul but it but it's still there for me and there's a story in the news today that you're probably already aware of the beggar's belief it's a 12-year-old boy who took part in two incidents in Manchester during the farage riots that were three days apart so he is potentially despite his age one of the worst offenders he's admitted two counts of violent disorder and will be sentenced accordingly but he won't be sentenced yet because in a a Twist in a development that is truly extraordinary the district judge has paused sentencing adjourned is the correct word has adjourned sentencing and issued a summons for the boy's mother to appear in court so 12-year-old boy pleading guilty or admitting two counts of violent disorder turned up in court accompanied by his uncle wait for it because his mother has elected to go on holiday to EA and bizarrely at that point in the story I felt my I felt my my inner Victorian start shrinking and shriveling because at that point in the story I found myself feeling enormous compassion and sympathy towards this boy so that's really weird because if his mother had been in court with him I would have been capable of a sort of nuanced analysis the question of who radicalized him whether whether you're talking about the wife of a Tory counselor who also pleaded guilty to farad Riot related offenses yesterday or whether you're talking about a 12-year-old boy the fact that his mother has gone on holiday while he appears in court somehow prompted a a big a big flowering of sympathy of compassion for the boy and then because I'm weird then then I start worrying that that's the wrong response then I start worrying that I'm turning into some sort of hippie that turning into some sort of of of of musly muncher that that the that the reaction is wrong so how sorry should we feel for a 12-year-old boy who has admitted pretty Grim crimes um missiles thrown at a police van uh bus was attacked he obviously got stuck right in to these events um one of the youngest criminals involved in last month's riots but is it just sort of Moly munching naivity to suggest that this lad deserves this lad is more sinned against than sinning how sorry do you feel for him do I need to give my head a wobble 0345 6060 973 is the number that you need how how sorry do you feel for him because you think back to the foot AG how would you have felt when you were watching the footage how would you have felt when you were watching the footage if you saw a 12-year-old boy you'd have felt unless you're you know sympathetic to the farad riers and a surprising number of people judging by social media actually are um you you'd have been pretty repulsed you may have been more repulsed by the actions of a 12-year-old than you were by the actions of some of the adults because they seem something as I said something feral about it something almost incomprehensible and sometimes when we struggle to understand things we reach immediately for strong emotional responses so how significant we don't know and and you don't want to overanalyze the details that we've got but I want you to imagine getting into trouble when you were 12 I want you to be frightened of the consequences I don't know given that he turned up at two Riot and got stuck right in I don't know whether he is cognizant of consequences whe whether he understands the relationship between action and consequences um he would have essentially admitted the counts he would have pleaded guilty because his legal advice would be there's no earthly way you're going to get off this you're on camera doing the crimes that you've committed and if you plead guilty then sentencing will be quicker and possibly more lenient some people still need a little bit of help understanding the reasons for this it's where all the nonsense about two-tier policing comes from it's it's about the speed with which a case can be processed and if it's not complicated and the defendant has indicated that they're going to admit the charges at the first opportunity then that case will be handed a 100 times more quickly than than cases that are complicated and that involve an awful lot of investigation and interrogation before even charges can be brought but hey ho he can't be named he's admitted taking part in two incidents in Manchester and his mom went on holiday to AA while he was in court and I I feel that that's just a heartbreaking story do you 0345 6060 973 is the number that you need so is it nuts to feel sorry for this kid or is it actually necessary is it actually the correct response and here's something else I'd like to know CU if I say something like what chance did he have have with such obviously neglectful parents then you could tell me that you had incredibly neglectful parents and you are now a fine and upstanding member of the community and I and I respect that contribution and I think it's important so let me be absolutely clear I'm not suggesting inevitability but I really reject the idea that there are no relationships whatsoever between nurture and destination I I'm I'm pretty clear that if I'd been raised differently I would be a a noticeably different person um I think that's obvious I think all of us recognize the early influences even before we started analyzing things like brain development we're pretty clear that being exposed to things as a child is likely to have an impact upon how you behave and how you see the world as an adult so the second bit of this phonin is is I don't know you can help the rest of us with this if you've had this Misfortune but to grow up in chaos the details are relatively scant but there are elements of this story that you think you recognize you could just about imagine your mom being on holiday when you were facing the consequences of of a couple of nights of Madness do you do you see what I mean those of us who've had the blessing of parents who are committed compassionate and Brilliant I think one of the hardest things to imagine is what it would be like to grow up without that without feeling the unstinting unconditional support of your parents and and if you've had that Misfortune I'd love to hear your thoughts on this because I know that there's no excuse for what this 12-year-old has done but there is a thin line sometimes between excuse and explanation isn't there I mean what chance has he got of a of a fulfilling life if he's already getting into this sort of bother at the age of 12 and his mother has gone on holiday and here's a really tricky one that I don't think you'll want to answer because I can't answer it when do you stop feeling sorry for him what age do you feel sorry for the 18yar olds who got caught up in this do you feel sorry for the 25y olds who got C caught up in this do you feel sorry for Lucy Connelly the wife of a conservative counselor in Northampton who's pleaded guilty to stirring up racial hatred do you feel sorry for her I mean like the question of who radicalized her is quite an interesting one obviously some of the people who disseminated blatant lies on the internet about the um killings in Southport should be held to account for some of the consequences of their lies whether they got their information from the Twitter account of someone facing trial for uh people trafficking or or or whether they just plucked it out their own backside the response to those lies was the riots in many ways but no one would argue that you should feel sorry for this 41-year-old woman from Northampton or nobody sensible would argue that you should feel sorry for her imagine if I used my radio to encourage people to kill you that that might sound like quite an odd thing to say but I've I've been reading because I'm weird I've been reading about the Rwanda genocide and the role that radio played in the Rwandan Genocide 100 days when you turn on your radio and presenters were encouraging you to Massacre your neighbors if you were Hutu and your neighbors were Tootsie you were being encouraged in the most extraordinary language to join in a massacre it lasted for about 100 days left thousands dead now if I started doing that on the radio what do you think should happen to me if I gave out your address or called for people living in a specific building to actually be killed or or set fire to what what do you think that should happen to me this is the point that many people including Elon Musk seem to miss is that social media has become an enormous megaphone where regardless of how many followers you've got he gets picked up by somebody with a lot of followers and it can go anywhere in fact farage gave the game away a bit didn't he when he was being interviewed by Tom swri when he described Andrew Tate the man who's facing trial in Romania for for people tra trafficking as Sury other hideous crimes alleged crimes he said he's got he's got a lot he's got a big following as if that somehow imputes credibility so you you use social media to do this stuff you're the same as a radio presenter Ren ran calling upon his hu listeners to Massacre his Tootsie listeners there there's no difference except the nature of the platform the crime is exactly the same and no one would seek to defend me if I called for you to be burnt in your bed tonight so at what point do you stop feeling sorry for this kid when he's 13 when he's 14 when he's 15 when he's 34 I I can't answer that question I really can't answer that question can you 0345 60 6973 is the number that you need it's 19 minutes after 11 James O'Brien on LBC it is 21 minutes after 11 and the story of a 12-year-old boy who has admitted to uh counts of involvement in the uh violence two counts of violent disorder during the riots last month um who turned up in court only for the district judge to discover that his mom had gone on holiday to IA 12 years old question that's possibly quite easy to answer how sorry should you feel for that child how sorry do you feel for that child and question that's almost impossible to answer at what age do you think you should stop feeling sorry for him that second one is that's PhD territory isn't it anyway we should crack on uh Mary's in Norwich Mary what would you like to say hello James thank you for taking my call you're very welcome um isn't violence that's affected my family but my daughter um remarried and um to cut a long story short the um new father didn't get on with my granddaughter so there became problems in the family um and I got a phone call one day um my granddaughter was 16 at the time right I got a phone call from the police one day to say that they had got Claudia in the uh police station um would they be able to bring her to me right so yes she had run away from home um but this is the last STW for her she was she has got problems with the relationship my my daughter had okay um and I took her in she she stayed with me from the age of 60 and I put her through college and everything and she's become a really beautiful young lady oh good but where was my daughter going my daughter was going to Bulgaria when the police rang me and didn't want to know she was taking um my young my youngest grandson well the thing is it's impacted on our family in such a strong way she hasn't got a relationship with any of us now my daughter and she had chosen to yeah she prioritize her partner over her daughter so absolutely so the relationship deteriorated to such a point where your daughter felt she had to make a choice you're either with him or you're looking after your little girl and she chose her partner and culminating in her getting ready to hop on a plan just like this lad's mother has done yeah and whilst there's no um aggression or anything in there the impact of that kind of um Behavior it has on the child the child my granddaughter is just she is lovely but she does have problems mental problems about a relationship with her mother right and it and you know I haven't I didn't bring up my children to be like that it is so upsetting I okay so how how how does this case reach your ears then when you read about a 12-year-old or you hear about a 12-year-old boy in court for violent disorder and then the judge discovers his mom's on on her way or already arrived in ABA I'm a bit like you James I think um I have sympathy with the child yes because because the child has obviously not had um a strong enough upbringing to realize what he's right and what is wrong and and how to go about getting help for that and here's the question question that you can't answer cuz I don't think any of us can when when is the right time to stop feeling sorry for the child you probably still view you still view your granddaughter sympathetically and you still see the consequences of what she endured and and I do but but if this bloke ended up in court 10 years from now this lad ended up in court 10 years from now and we didn't know anything about his family background and he'd done something we considered to be disgusting we'd probably be supremely comfortable with him being punished in very robust terms yet the argument for the impact of his parenting on him would still be relevant wouldn't it yes I mean my granddaughter's now 25 and I still have that overprotectiveness about the way she was treated by my daughter who I I love them all dearly but my daughter hasn't spoken to me for I don't know 14 years now oh I'm sorry because of it no no no you know no it's not ideal I understand that you're happy at least with the choices that you have made but it's still not ideal I'm allowed to say I'm allowed to express A Bit of Sympathy for the overall situation you're welcome you're welcome and and and does your granddaughter talk to you about it does she I mean does she discuss the the possible depth of the damage that's been done by her mom not so much now no she did she doesn't understand um how to get around it she she still tries to keep in touch with her mom and mom never returns cold she doesn't yeah it's just yeah it's a broken relationship and I don't think it will ever amend because you know where was where was she she was going on a holiday in Bulgaria with her partner and her youngest son was the good one and where would your 16y old have ended up if if Grandma wasn't there and the police had and the police hadn't picked her up who doesn't bear thinking about it doesn't does it and that's the point oh thank you Mary that's it's a powerful beginning to this conversation because that's the point isn't it it's the road not taken or there but for the grace of God and and 12 most has find it easy I think to to conceive of compassion for a 12-year-old suffering from a form of Parental abandonment even though he's got into hideous trouble but would you feel sorry for a 19-year-old I don't know that you would thank you Mary Jade's in biler Ricky Jade what would you like to say hi uh hi James thanks for having me on you're very welcome I just want to say I don't entirely disagree the fact that the mother's gone on holiday um from my understanding it was a pre-booked holiday um and these things are really difficult to get out of and from what I understand she booked it before her child's Behavior now I when you say they're difficult to get out of you mean it might be difficult to get a refund it's not difficult to say oh do you know what my my son's in court tomorrow I'm not going to go to ather after all that's really easy to do yeah I mean it might be difficult to get a refund basically but my thing is is like how do we know that this isn't a way of the mother teaching her child that look when you've got yourself into trouble sometimes you're going to have to face the consequences on your own now from what we understand she's made arrangements to make sure he's got to court with a responsible adult which yeah okay doesn't look great but from a legal point of view from what I understand it's perfectly legal to sort of delegate a responsible adult to attend so I'm not really sure because if you're I mean I Cy I if you're sentencing this boy then you would need to know for for example quite a lot about his background in order to to sentence sensitively you'd need to know whether or not he was um aware if you like of of what he was doing whether his relationship with right and wrong had been well established whe I mean to to to to be fair I I I appreciate your mental gymnastics but if you're the mother of a 12-year-old boy who's in court on two of violent disorder you cancel your bloody holiday Jade oh I I don't think I would I don't think I would because he needs to learn to face the consequences on his own she's not going to be she's not going to be sat there in prison okay so what what if he's 11 well the criminal age of responsibility is 10 years old so what if he's 10 it's the same thing if n well when you get into nine I think that when it's a little bit different but I think a 12y old what if you're n years and 364 days I think you're doing mental gymnastics now James no I'm not I'm I'm pointing out that as a society 16 would be the age at which we would reasonably expect a lad to turn up in court to be sentenced for two counts of violent disorder without his mom deciding that this was a suitable time to go on holiday well I just think that she sent someone with him a responsible adult and you know she made sure that he got to court okay I of you thank you Jade it's half past 11 Thomas wats has your headlin James O'Brien on LBC 33 minutes after 11: is the time um troubling question a really interesting question of sympathy age uh nurture nature I'm just going to take a moment to completely waste my time but hopefully not yours so when I poo poo the notion of two tier policing um somehow favor ing people who've been routinely at the wrong end of institutionalized racism in various Police Services I I get this message quite often you seem to deny two-tier policing so can you tell me why and then Pete refers to a very well documented case at Manchester Airport recently which saw various um clips of of filmed footage emerge to to demonstrate two three possibly four um potential or alleged crimes so can you please tell me why no charges have been brought in in that case says Pete um thinking he's being clever of course I can but it'd be much better to ask a barrister or to ask a lawyer Pete which is what I do uh that's what I did so someone familiar with how the legal system works would tell you as opposed to Billy bunch of numbers with a bulldog avatar on Twitter # 2tier policing would tell you that quite simply it's under investigation it's clear from the CCTV that this incident has been selectively presented on social media including by the family concerned and there will be other evidence lines of inquiry which we are not aware of the officer in question is also uh apparently under internal investigation by the iopc so there are a lot of moving Parts um that need to be established before the CPS is able to decide a who is to be charged and B crucially with exactly what offenses but really there is nothing unusual about a serious incident involving a police officer taking a long time for charging decisions to be made these cases have fewer resources devoted to them and present fewer complexities than some racist goon filming himself throwing bricks at police officers and this is why it has been possible to charge many although by no means most of the farad riers so swiftly so if you want legal advice Pete ask a lawyer now if you can't ask a lawyer ask me and I can ask a lawyer don't get your prejudices um inflamed and enforced by some numpties on social media who not that long ago were actually posting stuff designed whether deliberately or accidentally to incite precise Bally the sort of riots that we are talking about today and that I presume was a complete waste of my time with regard to Pete's uh cranum but hopefully not to every pair of ears currently listening to this program uh I I have to say Jaden biler Ricky has drawn quite a lot of attention uh and that writes one texter Emmy I think is part of the problem that lady you had on just now wow you cancel your holiday end of story because the likelihood is you're part of the reason why he's ended up in courting the first place so you need to be part of the solution instead of running off on holiday I think that was the point I was trying to make Emmy but you've just made it much better than me that's why Mom needs to be in court because she is still responsible for the boy Dave's in Liverpool Dave what do you reckon um nice speak to you again James in regards to the last caller honestly that argument was flawed from the start because I I recognized what you was trying to explain about actions and consequences but if that was so there would have been a statement given in on behalf of the mother to say do what you will with my son and apart from that previous to that if um if his mother was like that he wouldn't have been in those demonstrations in the first place we don't know that I mean you know nothing comparable to this but I I got into trouble as a kid and the idea that it had anything to do with my mom or my dad's influence on me is is is ridiculous so James no no I'll tell you why anybody anybody can get into trouble but to be in two demonstr lobbing bricks up police officers and buses yeah I me it's it's not like Nick and pick and mix from wwth I grant you but still yeah okay so horses for courses there's no way that he can be meaningfully sentenced without the not a but the respon the responsible adult being present to to establish a absolutely absolutely the state of his home life and B the likelihood of anybody involved in his home life stepping up to the plate to do things that would otherwise have to fall to the court to do yeah anyway so to get back to the the the point of debate yes um sympathy for him how much sympathy for him I I wholeheartedly feel sorry for for that young 12y old and I'll back up why it is obvious that that 12-year-old is not in a supportive environment and environment that will intervene when he does wrong an environment will that proves teach te es him right and wrong and respect for others that's why I feel sorry for that 12y old and I would add that there are many 30 40 year olds who were in those demonstrations that have sadly had the same non intervention you're you're so you're so right you're so right but there's nothing you can do about that unless you you Chang the nature of our criminal justice system to prioritize Rehabilitation and and therapeutic treatment over punishment and and and deterrence yeah absolutely so what age do we switch that off maybe you don't but you know that you you wouldn't know would you well in the context in the context of that which I've alluded to which I've just explained it's a it's about I'm I don't I'm not well up legally but it's about the the the prosecution and the defense raising the question of well what's the influence of this person be a 45y old right what has happened in this person's life you know well but you know that's an element of the legal system I come up mitigation does come up in court actually doesn't it you often you often hear um defense lawyers offering up reasons uh mitigating reasons for for why the sentence should be a little less stringent than it otherwise would have been quite quite a few of you cross with me which is fine but you can't get AC cross with me for things I can't control I know I know nothing about the lad's dad the I presume that it that the mother bears at least Chief if not sole responsibility for raising him you know single mothers are pretty common place these days and if the dad had a role to play in the sentencing it would have come out in court but don't have a don't have a pop at me for not asking where the dad okay I'll do it now where's the bloody dad that's what I want to know he might be dead he might be in jail he might be the Archbishop of Canterbury who's never found out that he'd fought that's not likely I just want to make that absolutely clear for the benefit of of of the archbishop's lawyers um but I don't know so it's a silly thing to say it's a bit like having a conversation about kidist Harry is playing uh scunthorp and you asking me why I'm not mentioning Manchester United the judge wants to know where the mother is okay that's all so there's no um I don't believe there's no sexism here uh 20 minutes to 12 is the time and if we find out where the dad is we'll have a conversation about him as well for goodness sake Kylie's in uh meltam in Wilshire Kylie what what would you you like to say all right first of all I just want to say I'm a big fan so please don't be cross at me there's a big butt coming there's a big butt coming in coming in fast go on Kylie what have you got I'm I'm the mother of four teenagers yes and they're four mix raced teenagers and three of them their father is a Bengali muslim okay when these riots were going on I was petrified for the safety of my children I mean mil's a pretty safe place but if they were to go to Bath shopping and just on the way in my children look or their serame or anything and I just think at 12 years old you're at secondary school now unless there is real mitigating circum circumstances like there's abuse in the home or neglect in the home which the judge will be aware of if there is that kind of thing and then that will be brought up in court then who's to say this mother hasn't Time After Time After Time tried to sort her child out yes and maybe he's just maybe he's just a bit of a bad egg who knows well I don't believe I this is where my woly liberal woly liberalism comes in and um apparently Nick said the dad was in jail so that's why you should listen to the breakfast show not this old rubbish I just turn up with that I turn up with that no I don't no don't say anything rude about Nick please no please it's bad enough already so can we double check that actually if if um if we haven't already so hang on hang I just wanted to establish that in response to the previous little rant that I went on I I don't like the idea of a 12-year-old already being consigned to the pile marked whatever that word was you use dodgy or something badg badg but it doesn't mean if someone is a bad egg doesn't mean they can't be rehabilitated however I know parents of with with kids the same age as mine who are really decent people who have had such a tough time that their kids have been breaken into people's houses or my children my three of my three boys one is going to be 20 this year and 16-year- old twins all have autism as well right and they've never been in trouble with the police I had I had a really shocking upbringing and I've never been in trouble with the police I did address this at the beginning I I did say that just because we recognize that nurture and early environment can sometimes set people off on unpleasant paths or undesirable paths doesn't mean that it it doesn't mean everybody is it doesn't but you have to recognize also can I tell you something have you promise not to get across with me no right promise yeah go for it you're you're doing something that I think is psychologically impossible to avoid but it is potentially a little bit risky because if any God forbid if any of your Lads did get into bother it still wouldn't it still wouldn't be your fault so you're trying to convince yourself you're trying to convince yourself that your Lads won't get into this sort of scenario if they did yeah if they did they know it so but but what I'm saying is that that bad things happen to good people however careful we are and however much I've always been of the of the opinion so back when we had the the riots in London were they 2005 and 2015 or something and people were breaking into JD Sports and nicking trainers yes if my kid had come home with trainers on that were brand new and expensive and I knew that we lived in that area I would have marched from straight up the police station myself because so would my parents but what if a 12y old ended up in court for nicking those trainers and his mom was in a bether uh if my child was in court for nicking trainers I don't think I'd go on holiday no but I'm talking about the child whose mother did who you're automatically saying is is less lucky than your child you've already said that I do have I do have I whether his mom I I'm I'm I'm 5050 on what his mom should have done because I don't know her and I don't know how what's gone on in in the past the judge does yeah the judge knows all the details all the facts and the judge is bloody livid I just think I just think I don't have any sympathy for him now I'm worried I am being a bit sexist because the only two female callers have demonstrated Sympathy for the mother oh no I don't have sympathy for her either but you said 5050 that's practically brex whe whether she should have g a holiday but the thing is James yes the thing is at 12 years old my daughter when she she's now 15 when she was 12 years old she picked up an award for being a young car she's been able to cook since she's 13 he knows knows what he was doing was wrong unless he's got unless he's got no one saying he's not going to get punished we're just saying there's no point punishing him if you're if his mom's not there because she's going to be the one who is a pertinent to the trouble that he's ended up in to get a full picture of what his domestic situation is as a possible mitigation and B crucial in the in the commission of the centers crucial in in what the path ahead looks like so the distance difference for example between youth custody and non-custodial sense would depend on what his home life is going to be like and and you can't establish that if his mom's not there thank you Kylie um 11:46 is the time James O'Brien on LBC 10 minutes to 12 is the time and it's it's the mark of course of a of a wonderful comic writer and comedian in this case a pal mine to to find humor almost anywhere this just dropped into my inbox to be fair James until Holly's call I for one had been led to believe by your biased coverage that Hamas was indeed a yoga organization managing to raise a smile in the strangest of circumstances uh back to another story in which we've managed to raise a smile in the strangest of circumstances uh Ali is in Warrington to take us back to the question of how sorry we should feel for a 12-year-old boy who's admitted two counts of violent disorder during the farage riots and turned up in court only for the district judge to express astonishment that his mom had gone on holiday and the thing about newspaper journal or journalism in or storytelling the story improves as a as a for one of a better word because she's gone to EA if she was on a walking tour of the Appalachian Mountains it wouldn't land in quite the same way I don't know why there's probably a bit of snobbery involved or something but the fact that she's gone to a Bea moves a story if you give a story a mark on a dial between one and 10 for its salience or its impact the fact that it's IA moves it up at least two notches it's a big enough story already you got a kid in court on two counts of violent disorder his mom's gone on holiday but if she'd gone on holiday to Florence as opposed to AA it would land rather different um I think 11:51 is the time I suppose it's the same is it the same with Angela Rena a bit of snobbery involved if Angela Rena had been photographed on a walking holiday in the dolomites would the Daily Telegraph and the Daily Mail have filmed it and pretended that it was some so would Nadine dory's have written Nadine dor the muncha of ostrich anus would she have written an article for the daily whale about how it has demean the office of Deputy Prime Minister there is snobbery oh we're all guil anyway sorry I I introduced Ali and Warrington and then I went off on a mad tangent Ally what would you like to say oh well first of all I just wanted to thank you for actually taking my call I'm very big fan actually thank you um I was just listening to your uh you know your conversation about the 12-year-old kid and you know uh how his mother's actually gone on a holiday and people talking about oh you know she must be saving money you know uh for a whole year to go out on a holiday itself but I'm I'm just thinking out itself because I me know I'm a parent of 14y old kid myself and my son himself actually got into trouble when he was 12 and and felt but that I you know I I fell for my son but I didn't actually feel guilty if he's done something wrong I was there with him at the police station with the you stop stop stop stop you're triggering me I I will never forget my dad walking into custody suite at working walking into the what's it called the room where you're being questioned oh dear that was one of the single worst moments of my life Ally and you just dragged it right back to the front of my memory bank so thanks for that I do apologize oh don't worry oh Lord Dad I'm so sorry oh man he hasn't been here for 12 years and I still feel the guilt clench my guts like a cold Iron Claw anyway sorry Ally I carry carry on I was I'm I'm I'm just saying that you know I'm I'm self-employed myself and if I don't work I don't actually get any income and when my son got into trouble rather than me actually saying you know what police can come and take him and talk to him and that's fine you know I need to be there I'm within my rights to do that but no as a father I wanted to make sure I'm there for my son not not because I wanted to support him because what what what has done wrong onada I just wanted to be there because I want to make sure that the right thing has been done and for that moment to actually go out on a holiday I mean like I said I mean people were saying oh what if she bought a holiday a year ago and then she get I I don't really get that argument but I hope I'm not being financially aloof I hope because you know if you really can't afford it you get one holiday a year and and it is literally just about affordable then I can I can almost understand how someone like Jaden B Ricky might ring in and and sort of Imagine herself in that situation and if you don't go on it that's it you're not having a holiday until 2027 well I mean I mean to be honest James I I the only thing that I would like to say on that matter is the fact that yeah I can understand that you know if you can't you know get a refund on a cancel holiday there's always other options you can always ask them to postpone that holiday you could go for a walking holiday in the dollarit is your boy is your boy is he back on the straight and narrow now well oh absolutely I'm made sure of that that's another reason why that's another reason why Mom should be there but you can't force her to care you can only force her to be there sounded like a poem thank you Alia thank you for the kind words Johnny's in ham Johnny what do you reckon hi well it's just a bit of perspective for you really I know you said you were trigger just now I was joking a bit I was joking well imagine what it would be like if your parents don't turn up I was homeless from 14 I was in Youth detention by 18 um and you can't get no fix address benefit till 16 so I was breaking into homes for food right um because I got involved in organized crime I ended up going to general population and when I was released I sat on a bench with a clear plastic bag with hm prison services on it all my worldly possessions in it which was a few items yeah nobody came the the level of Abandonment you can't quite quantify unless you've been in it and I can tell you the anger that I had as a young child you wanted to burn the world down yeah because there's no parameters but the thing is by that boy he needs to have the doorway and I can promise you because I've been in that world there are bad people and there are good people but that kid needs to be allowed to give him the choice that whole analogy of the caterpillar going to the crism becoming a butterfly people can change but he needs the support to do it you cannot write that Bo because I and many like me are proof that you know you can blossom who helped you well I was very lucky um when I was in prison I I learned to read and write very late in life and there was a Buddhist monk in there Buddhism was my way of realizing that you know you get bitter or you get better it doesn't belong to fate it belongs to you you can deal with the hand that was given to you and make yourself better make yourself more compassionate or you can go the other way you have the choice but you can be angry you can smash Windows you can fight and afterwards you can dust yourself down and everything is still the same applies to the adults applies to the adults as much as it does to the 12-y old oh absolutely absolutely does but you can't write the boy off and though the mom went to I beat it it doesn't matter whether it's the dolomites or say of Bogner he was abandoned and I can promise you many many times he's been abandoned emotionally physically you know he he's got there's there's nothing for him until you get until he gains traction and gets shown a doorway that there is somewh we can to for me he needs to meet someone he needs to encounter someone like you or someone like the Buddhist monk that you met in prison to be clear joh Ming was the Buddhist monk banged up or was he there on a sort of Outreach prr no no he was he was there helping in the library now he was in in the library and what an amazing encounter that was for you and if I don't want to pry on Julie but but that the abandonment that you suffered at 14 was that pretty permanent yeah you never yeah repaired relations with with a parent no no know I won boy with it but I tried to find out where my dad was went to hisun didn't know him and and you know he was old when he died he was 77 and it just you know but the thing is you need to think that 77 years sounds a long time it's 77 Christmases doesn't and at 50 what have you got 20 Summers left you know time to clock's ticking you know and for that kid he's got plenty of Summers and plenty of Christmases with the right guidance with the right help you know he can he can be anything he wants to be what was it get bitter or get better stay bitter you get bitter you get bitter or you get better you're a it's down to you it doesn't belong to fate it's down to you did did you feel it happening in in your own soul in your own heart could you feel the healing when when still do so the thing is the thing is you understand I mean I do a lot of things like Shadow work and for me there's a kid I to go and see at school his family was lovely and I didn't believe I couldn't understand the rage and jealousy I had for such a happy family that that's inside you and my ability as an adult to cut people off and walk away and be self-sufficient to me I believe was my superpower but you realize later in life it's a trauma response because you've never had anybody to rely on you have to let people in but it is like there's a famous saying isn't there it's not the water outside the boat that makes it sink it's the water that gets inside all these things are like little cracks that let the water seep inside that you don't see and you need to do the work you need to patch the hull it takes work but you do feel the healing you're yeah can we have a hug you can have a hug anytime man Johnny that was beautiful seriously that was really really beautiful I'm really really grateful to you for for for bringing that to all of us today no problems man anybody can heal you stay safe yeah cheers buddy thanks man thank you Johnny oh boy all the fields today what an extraordinary man well done thank you um I almost feel bad about the question about the Buddhist Buddhist monk being banged up heyo um you are listening to James on LBC there's a an annual inquiry into British values sort of where we are where we sit as a nation and it's always quite complex and nuanced and you can always guarantee that lazy journalists will present it as um neither complex nor nuanced so um what does British values mean to you kind of thing uh in fact the reason why Britain's history or pride in Britain's history has fallen quite sharply over the past decade is a fascinating question and it has to do with the tension between reality and fantasy James O'Brien on LBC what was it called there was there was an act introduced in India in about 1918 or 1919 I I I can't remember what it was called but it allowed the Brits uh the occupying power to essentially lock anyone up for two years without any particular reason I I was reading about it yesterday in a fiction book not in a um not in a history book I'm not that uh studious but it it it it oddly really sort of focused my mind on the question of Pride national pride I didn't know the story today would appear I didn't know know it was time for the um annual survey into British social attitudes to be reported but I but I remember being a kid and seeing do you remember when you'd see the map and it was pink everywhere was pink because it was British you'd see an old map from so even I mean the first half of the last century but certainly from the Victorian era and because you were British you'd feel a kind of Pride you'd think wow that's amazing look how tiny the UK is and we the waves I even wrote songs about it of course famously Britannia rules the waves and and as a as a kid that was like wow some people never grow out of that Jacob ree morog still probably looks at maps of the world where everything's pink and sort of rubs his thighs I I found myself thinking of that yesterday when I was read someone will know what they're called has anyone got the name of it yet it wasn't in tournament it was the name of an act a specific I mean it might have involved in tournament Rob and John and but then there was an actual act it had an actual name brought in around about the time not long after the partition of Bengal I I love the idea someone just turn this on hoping for a phone in about how awful immigration is or potholes on the motorway I said what was that J the the rough the formation of Bengal the partition of anyway um penal laws in Ireland weren't dissimilar actually the rowlet ACT John and Kent top of the class John and Kent the rowat ACT r w l t that was the one and we was still being taught when I was at school to to to be proud of uh our our kind of interventions in India or our occupation of India long after gandi we'd still have that kind of rhetoric or narrative presented to us and if you know more the more you know about this stuff it was indeed 1919 I got it right as well and and of course we had internment in the north of Ireland as well um the more you know about the history of the British Empire the less proud you can be of the fact that the map used to be pink I don't even think that should be a controversial thing to say you you might be able to talk to me about the railways or or I don't like the notion of civilizing influences because we went in there and and ruled the place it's also absolutely intrinsic to one of my favorite subjects which is of course private education and the the damaging role it has not only on the beneficiaries of it but on the society that we live as a whole I think it's in the same book I must get the title of the book I haven't got the title of my book in my head but I think it's in the same book that he writes about the minor Public Schools being conveyor belts for managers of empire for people who would go to all corners of the earth and and essentially rule over the natives and expect the natives to say thank you very much for ruling over us and taking all our raw materials and then they'd send their children back to blighty to be educated in the same sort of schools and so you have this never ending Cavalcade of emotionally repressed extraordinarily entitled uh weapons grade arrogant men who who kind of stamped their Authority all over the the the known world and when I was a charge born in the early 70s we were still being taught to be proud of all this unless we were being taught something completely different because that was the other way in which things went wasn't it that was the other way in which the traffic traveled they didn't about any of our own history because there was a kind of tacit acknowledgement that it was all pretty rum so do you remember doing watland door dorb Huts did you ever do a watland dorb Hut I remember studying about how sort of prehistoric people built shelters and and we do the tuders why do we do the tuders why do we get so excited about the tuders Henry VII was a sort of syphilitic psychopath and we and we treat him as a as a sort of national hero like a cross between Father Christmas and Margaret Thatcher it's extraordinary I know it's important to know about the dissolution of the monasteries I was looking at a map the other day of all the monasteries that were dissolved that's the right word isn't it not dissoluted all the monasteries that were dissolved how many monasteries do you think were dissolved during the dissolution of the monasteries can you look it up please because I don't want to get the answer wrong but how many monasteries were dissolved during the dissolution of the monasteries because you probably think oh I don't know about 100 bloody I've got to stop swearing someone's just asked me to sorry loads I'll get get you a number but I looked at the map almost everywhere you could barely put a pin down on the map of England and Wales you could barely put a pin on the map without hitting a monastery that got shut down so that Henry VII could Nick all the money that was it really could could take all the kind of riches so we even colonized our own country I wonder if that's a historical first I've never thought of it like that before during the during the dissolution of the monasteries we essentially colonized our own country the ruling class went into uh territory previously governed by the religious class and helped itself sent all the mola back to Hampton Court or wherever he was hanging out at the time and then you remind me about the George Taki thank you for that Jamie George told me all about this when he was on uh full disclosure with me when the FDR essentially put all Japanese Americans under internment for fear that they would be enemies of the state an incredible story that George tells about his own family and and indeed he was in London to appear in a play about it and so the more you know about British history the less Pride you will take in it but that's not the same as having pride in your country is it what what what does pride in Britain mean it's a bit silly in some ways because what it would need to contain to be intellectually valid is something distinct from the reasons why other people in other countries are proud of where they come from so you could talk about literature and then a Frenchman will say oh Marcel PR or uh you know you could talk about music you could talk about Elgar and Austrian will talk about Strauss or Mozart you could talk about Sport and you know a German will talk about beckenbauer so you I don't know what you could actually separate as a peculiarly British source of national pride from the sort of universal sources of national pride and yet I feel it I I I feel I feel a form of national pride I guess that's how you get people to risk their lives in a war between two cousins you know the Zar and the King of England fall out and or their countries fall out and they send their subjects off to try to kill each other and to die in service of their Throne absolutely ridiculous when you think about it but unless you felt some form some Welling of Pride at your geographical accident and felt that it in some way made you different at least and better at most from somebody with a different uh National accident geographical accident you're never going to be able to get a war off the ground otherwise everyone will just turn around and say I'm not going to sh well I've got more in common with him than I have with you your highness I'm not going off to kill people I just thought of the Susan Vega song then the queen and the soldier haven't listened to that for years it's a beautiful song highly recommended um so what does it mean what does it mean if I said to you pride in Britain's history what would you say to me what are you proud of what so I'm proud of Shakespeare but you know other countries have other play rights Greeks I suppose go back furthest in the the sort of known you don't pick me up don't get all pedantic on my little talk I'm doing what Donald Trump does I'm weaving together nine different things and English professors tell me it's the most amazing thing they've ever heard that's a quote of Donald Trump by the way not truly claiming I don't know any English professors so what is pride in British history colonies subjecting natives robbing countries blind enforcing wealth inequality at home that is uh as bad as anywhere else on the planet almost or certainly historically has been sending kids up chimneys milonas and master sweet what what is it that we're supposed to be but we beat the Nazis you're never going to get you're never going to get past that that's just 100% Stone Cold brilliant we beat the Nazis but I don't know how much time you spend looking at some of the uh voices that are bubbling up on on social media and elsewhere in this country you could probably find a few who would have been on the other side during the uh during the second world war in fact I think they British politicians who' who've gone to speak to the afd aren't there in Germany which is essentially a Neo-Nazi movement so what is it what is it the uh pride in British history what what what can I mean if we were to if we were to if we were to separate off beating the Nazis because even the first world war was a much more nuanced business I genuinely think the Second World War in terms can be perceived as a battle between good and evil and I know of all Church Hill's flaws and I know about some of the terrible things he believed and did and said but the second world war because Hitler was so so extraordinarily evil and the Holocaust was an act of such unparalleled horror I think you can cast the second world war as a battle between good and evil and of course if you don't study it too deeply you can cast the United Kingdom or you can cast Great Britain as The crucial constituent in the defeat of the Nazis just ignore Russia and America so what what does it even mean so I I would once have seen this headline and not thought about it much and said oh that's a shame pride in British history is fading I think about things a little more deeply now than I used to do and I can tell you that pride in British history is a little bit silly because an awful lot of British history like the history of any Empire involves colonization and exploitation you look at what the Portuguese did in the Congo you look at what the french did in parts of North Africa you look at what the Romans did what did the Romans ever do for you the enslavement the the you know all Empire is designed to do is increase the amount of money coming back to HQ that's pretty much it anything else is a bit of a pretense you can lose religion as you so often can in with a bit of a camouflage or a bit of a cloak but generally speaking what is British history what is so why should we be disappointed that pride in Britain's history has fallen because to me it just means that we know more we know more about British history and that's why the weirdos who object to knowledge the weirdos who object to the National Trust putting up information and knowledge about the property that you're visiting that's why there's such a sort of of sinister Bunch isn't it that's why they're such a Sinister Bunch because they know that the more history we know about our own country the more informed and intelligent our opinions will be and the less likely we will be to indulge in a kind of a kind of fact-free frenzy of feeling which is how they got brexit over the line because I tell you now the V diagram between people who don't want the National Trust to ex to display information about the property you're visiting and the people who wanted you to become the first population in history to vote to impose economic sanctions on yourself that's not a van diagram that's a flipping Circle exactly the same people uh the Dutch in South Africa Mark says we're not unique Belgium in the Congo not Portugal sorry what a terrible misspeak my apologies to the people of um Portugal but they had an Empire you know they they they all Empires involve subjugation exploitation and colonization so what are we supposed to be CR of in British history 03456 06973 and crucially cuz I just mentioned the rowler ACT something that I read literally yesterday discovered for the first time I do this sometimes I come across something in a book that's usually historical fiction that's what I like reading at the moment and I I'll come across something I know nothing about so I'll then spend 20 minutes looking stuff up and finding out a little bit more about it you discover that the British in India essentially passed laws that allowed them to lock up anyone they wanted just for looking at you a bit funny what am I supposed to be proud of we haven't even mentioned the black hole of Kolkata so what changed you because what's interesting about this survey is that it's not statistics it's people it's people like me and it's people like you who once felt a perfectly forgivable perfectly plausible swell of patriotic Pride when we saw a map of the world that was largely pink where pink denoted the areas in which we ruled it's not like we ruled is it I didn't get any other I didn't get any other Kickbacks I didn't get any other the cash I didn't get any other land but we ruled right you used to see that map when you were younger and you used to feel a weird and when you think about it quite irrational sense of personal Pride personal investment in the National picture we rule the world we rule the waves and now you don't feel that so what changed that's the real question I'm sorry it's taken me the best part of 20 minutes to ask it but I had quite a lot of turns out had quite a lot of places to visit on the way to this that what's changed for you personally so I don't think it's very interesting to ask what British values are or what but what's changed for you personally when it comes to the question of pride in British history why has your pride in British history diminished it doesn't mean that your love of country or your pride in who we are and what we represent today has changed but your pride in British history from the days of Commando Comics why has it diminished why has it gone down 0345 6060 973 is the number that you need what why has it gone down um and I look forward to hearing your answers to this because I don't I don't know that I don't know that they'll be obvious it's 1219 James O'Brien on lb 21 minutes after 12 is the time you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC um I I wanted to find a couple of texts that summed up the tension here quite quite nicely here it is so I I think this is a bit Bonkers but let's not fall out about it Elias uh James you are a product of British history not being proud of British history is the same as not being proud of yourself your values and education were birthed from it what if my values are entirely at odds with for example imperialism or Royal loal y aristocracy or um wealth inequality I I just don't think that works uh and this a little bit closer to where I think I sit surely pride in your country is a flawed idea where you were born is an accident of birth Pride surely requires you to have actually achieved something yourself being British is something I quite enjoy but it's not something I personally achieved I think that's brilliant I think that's lovely yeah I quite I I like being British but I got can I really claim to be proud of it I'm proud of achievements I I don't know let's find out Grace is in Crouch end to kick things off Grace what would you like to say um yeah well I I actually tend to agree with the last what you've just read I mean I think that um I feel very proud of the people in this country the women and men who fought for my rights I feel very proud of the suffragettes and and that history and not it can't be national pride because we would then have to also be proud of the people that were sticking feeding tubes down their necks cuz they were British as well yes but they didn't win no they didn't win and it was the Triumph of the spirit of the people that the the people that fought on and they won although of course I'm not naive it was also War also brings a lot of changes we know that the first world war changed a lot of things but what I feel about the whole thing of Pride and regarding like Empire I just think that all Empires historically as I think you've you've acknowledged they are all based on on slavery they are all based on Bloody Conquest it doesn't matter which one you look at going you know when you go to the pyramids they're just breathtaking but you know it was all ba based on slavery it's a fact and I I think that thing about you know if if you're going to have an Empire that's part of it that you have to acknowledge what it's what it's built on yeah okay so you could go to Rome if you were Roman Italian you could be proud of the Coliseum as a sort of architectural feet but you know even the most cursory scratch of the surface of the circumstances in which that architectural feet could be achieved is going to get all manner of um negativity and things to be even deeply ashamed of if you're going to feel pride in so I think you shouldn't feel shame about your past and you shouldn't feel Pride either don't think I don't think you should feel shame about it because and also it's because the people who have had the have been able to perpetrate all this and not the people you you didn't have the power it wasn't your you weren't you know I I think it's absurd to um feel that you should feel guilt about it I do too and I've never actually met anyone who does all I've ever met is people saying I refuse to feel guilty about British history and and I sometimes say to them well who who Who's told you that you should and you know certainly the notion of acknowledging the horror of slavery and the complicity of Institutions that remain prominent and Wealthy the complicity of families and individuals if my family home was built with the proceeds of slavery I'd feel a personal investment in um acknowledgement and atonement but not personal guilt I can only be guilty about things I have done I can only be proud of things that I have done yeah no I I I absolutely agree and I think that um I think that the people that to me are really outstanding you know they there are people in this country who've done incredible things but for me it's like what not to do with political parties but I think you know the fact that NY Bevin who founded the National Health Service was a minor son from Wales I mean those kind of proud is that the right word but admiring yeah I feel great admiration huge admiration I wish I was more like him I wish there were more people like him but there'll be a paraguayan n Bean there'll be a you know Croatian equivalent of n Bean not directly not not immediately but there will be somebody whose impact upon the politics of a country on the other side of the world has been as profound and as uplifting and as positive so just just a weird one um I love that guilt angle as well that Grace reminds us of what's the Cory of what's the opposite of Pride would be guilt you're not supposed to feel guilty about Britain's past and I don't think anyone should so how can you be proud of Britain's past it's you can you can I don't know what the correct words would be idiots corner do you think should we do idiots Corner we haven't done idiots corner for a while so someone's texted in the words more Britain bashing which is I mean I just well that makes you a bit ashamed to be British the fact that you share breathing space with people who listen to a conversation about the an of understanding history and knowing things and respond by saying more Britain bashing so what are you proud of then go on 0345 6060 973 you personally are proud of something from British history that you had absolutely nothing to do with so all right let's get really pompous what was I feeling then as a kid when I'd see the pink map I strangely gamon like Hugh actually i' see the gam map the map where England Britain ruled the and I'd feel a curious swell of personal Pride what on Earth was I feeling Andrew's in Bristol Andrew what would you like to say oh hi James hello um yeah I like many people at school it was all about the pink bits on the map and how fantastic it was Empire etc etc oh and let me remind you um you asked about the book I think it's empire Land by sa and sanir I I love Empire land and indeed Empire World by satam sanir um but no that I'm reading fiction at the moment but I don't think I could recommend Empire land heartily enough if you really want to know how Britain is shaped by modern Britain is shaped by its Imperial past you're you're absolutely right so what started chipping away at your sense of um Pride well it it wasn't until I I sort of started working and I've been quite blessed in having a career that's made me allowed me to travel the world yes living in different parts of of uh of what you might call the former Empire yes so um it started off going into places in Africa and that started to you know start my curiosity but it really came home when I lived in Malaysia oh yeah and started talking a lot with local people and all the rest of it and it really came home to me that you know although you know we might have put infrastructure and we might have put in some legal and admin structures but essentially it was a rape of resources and that's basically what it was and it really really came home to me uh once I started I suppose learning more about it from the the people who live there yes and and you could point at I I can't off the top of my head think I mean you put some impressive plantations or or or things that you could see objectively without any context you could say well that's quite impressive but the more context you provide the less impressive it becomes absolutely and so what are we going to replace it with cuz I don't you know I I don't think people should feel guilt about things that were done by their countrymen before they were born or even while while they were born unless you voted for it and I don't think you can for the reasons that we've established I mean learning it's really education and learning from what has happened and making sure you don't repat it but but if you want to say to someone who feels a bit AG grieved by being told that you're not you're not it's a bit silly feeling pride in Britain's history what do we replace it with I love the the text that said being British is something I quite enjoy it's like so you can enjoy being British but don't stop talking about pride and guilt all the time it's just weird yeah I think um I think modern day Britain I think I think it is a sense of fair play it's I think a lot of the Arts are worth um are worth celebrating and Free Speech the fact that we're talking about everything we want to talk about um you know without fear of um we are now but go back to go back to India in 1919 and you could have been banged up without trial for just sort of looking at someone a bit funny or espousing an opinion that the um that the British ruling class didn't find palatable I like that you're absolutely right I can't recommend satam's book highly enough Andrew's obviously enjoyed it as well but the book I'm actually reading at the moment for fellow fans of historical fiction is called a rising Man by ABIA mukaj that's ABIA a i r Muki and it's it's one of those ones that gets you slowly and then about 100 pages in you just know that you're not only going to inhale what's left but you're also going to high five yourself all the way to water stones and back because it's the beginning of a series with at least five four or five other books in it um it's beautifully written and this is I told you some time ago the reason I'm reading so much historical crime fiction is because I feel that I'm educating myself even while I'm addicted to turning the pages and arguably the best of the bun CJ Sansom who wrote The Shard Lake Mysteries which have been televised of course with with sha Bean in a um in a big role he on the cover of it in fact if I tell you that on the cover of this book I'm reading now CJ Sansom and Ian Rankin are describing it in the most glowing of terms then you certainly don't need my endorsement to be added to the pile to persuade you to give it a read it's 12:32 Amelia Cox is here with the headline James O'Brien on LBC it's 12:35 you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC how can you be proud of British history uh any more than you should feel guilty about things that were done by British people in the past 0345 6060 973 Drew is in pool Endor it drew what would you like to say well I'm 85 and you can imagine I've witnessed the pink map syndrome good and been educated in a fairly tral Northern Ireland uh School wow uh witnessing you know sort of the the dying of Empire I presume some of the things that we've touched upon would be driven home even harder in Northern Ireland to justify what was what was happening at the time outside the school was uh not particularly um gungho on Empire but the people around were yes um and but gradually you know that's modified a bit sure but um grudging over the years I'd become aware more of you know what went wrong with Empire what we did um and in some cases good some cases bad yes but mostly uh with an air of propriety an air of arrogance and an air of ignorance of really what the people we were governing were about for for instance the Indians we we first went into India and the first people that arrived there to represent the administration were actually just negotiating uh finance and trade of course um and they were pretty welcome but and they intermarried and there was no governance so so so to speak it's when we started try and govern them that of course the arrogance came in and people said that if you married an Indian that was going native when in fact it was actually joining the community was proper integration that's the Anglo Indian isn't it the class that that sort of ended up caught between two stools I'm reading about that a bit at the moment but you you talk about um you know sort of hat well two things hat hatred and pride yes very similar um if you look at hatred if you take hatred in its full meaning it means that you're you're isolating your mind to think about the person you hate the thing you hate or whatever and refusing to think laterally about the issues to either side yes of course concern the subject of your hate the same with pride if you focus on Pride you're ignoring the issues to either side of the influences the thing you have pride in has on the outside world and that's why I gradually found pride has died in me diminished or died Drew I think probably died yes fair enough you know I don't use the word now because uh I'm so pleased to be British that's a lovely word so same here I'm I'm so um delighted and privileged but having said that I don't feel Pride I feel sort of um enamored of the people and I I now the English but I feel they can't they couldn't manage air out of a paper tag so that and pride in history becomes an even more nebulous notion doesn't it when you think about it especially when you as you've done compare it with with hatred it's about the exclusion really of nuance in both cases the exclusion of interpretation the exclusion of knowledge even or or proper understanding and the prioritization of that that flush of feeling that just sort of makes you feel all puffed up and proud it's it's putting a bung in the pipeline of knowledge well I'll take that that's two phrases today that are going to stick in my uh in my by by by arsenal of of of all my vocabulary they get bitter or get better and then there's sticking a bung in the pipeline of knowledge and and finally Drew I I presume you don't feel any particular sense of loss at the death of the pride that you describe it doesn't it hasn't diminished Your Existence in any way I feel I could almost say I feel pride in having lost pride pride in Oh I like that yes because it's evidence of having thought about things and thinking about things is generally a fairly good path to take um thank you drew the problem is it doesn't it's harder to hang your hat on it isn't it I'm proud of Britain's history rather than saying I'm quite enamored of being British or I quite enjoy being British it doesn't quite feel as I don't know as as exciting and yet it's a lot more pertinent a lot more relevant Al so lucky you could say lucky not proud that I like that as well it's I mean hard to separate the two but we can do things here that we would not be able to do in other countries or even in this country at different points in history so you're not lucky to be British you're lucky to be British in 2024 uh and then you of course you've got all the different flavors of britishness and some of us are more lucky than others and when we acknowledge our luck by using phrases like white privilege we get attacked by people who enjoy the same levels of luck but refuse to admit it and they're more likely to be the people who don't want to learn more history because it would chip away at their pride and instead they argue about why they shouldn't be forced to feel guilt oh we're sorting it all out today I'm going to take this on head on Matthew because I'm in that kind of mood while I agree with you generally why does someone else's or another country's accomplishments of a similar feat undermine negate any Pride someone might feel in their own achievement that would be like you saying I can't be proud of my dad for being a firefighter because you know someone else whose dad is a firefighter um I must have been insufficiently clear on that because that was in the context of British values Matthew I was talking about specifically British values and why it's a fairly ridiculous phrase because absolutely you'd be proud of your dad for being a firefighter but if you were to call it a Matthew value it's a it's it's a thing that only Matthews can feel then what are you saying to John whose dad is a firefighter that's why it's a little bit silly to talk about British values like democracy because what on Earth is a Greek value you know or or to speak or or winning wars because loads of other countries have won Wars so that's all so that was my fault I should have been clearer so of course you can be proud of achievements your own achievements or even a loved one's achievement but you can't claim that it is unique to you if other people can do it too Jake reading Jake what would you like to say hi there yeah I thought your your uh your phrase on kind of excitement was a was a really interesting one for me I think it's the kind of the inversion of the the Empire kind of structure which for me is kind of what constitutes quote unques kind of British values the obviously no country is kind of truly kind of no there's no clean hands when it comes to kind of any country's history but I think ours is particularly Bleak and has resulted in I don't I think all Empire all success Empires are comparably actually I mean yeah and you know ours is Not So Different perhaps in circumstance but certainly in scale you know it we have perpetrated obviously immense uh injustices across the world and I think it means that we have a particular um opportunity and an almost an obligation certainly an obligation in my opinion to reconcile those and the cultural influence that we you know that we kind of recognize in the UK is a result of I think our obligation to kind of ReDiscover kind of the the cultures that we previously historically have tried to caution and eradicate and I think our Multicultural our multiculturalism as a result of that for me is kind of what I would see as pride in our history but you use the phras pride pride in exactly what is it exactly it's kind of I thought you used to the word excitement was really interesting because for me I see that as a as a a unique opportunity and that sounds like awful kind of politici speak when something's gone hideously wrong but for us that gives us the opportunity through that reconciliation to see not only our our own contributions to the World As for what they actually stand for yeah like I said there's been huge injustices that we've kind of done upon others but we've also been at the start of you know the Industrial Revolution um and made huge strides and things like the internet but we also get to hear about the cultural influences that we previously ignored you know we have people from you know we have huge Asian and kind of um contingencies here in the country that we kind of said you know we we offered them a home um whether they wanted it or not and we said we're going to take over yours as it were yes but now as a as a kind of a reparation for that we say you know or theoretically we should kind of Welcome them in and say you know tell us about about your culture about your music about your food about your influences we can derive some pleasure some Joy from the fact that we're at the Vanguard of um if you like Imperial revisionism and and actually writers like sat people like satanam sangera are at the Vanguard of that process what benefit would it so so apart from a sort of sense of something that I value being taken away from me why do people object to the revisionism why do people have such a problem with the idea of more knowledge and more facts think it's it's kind of one of the reasons that kind of recent politics you know especially since 2016 of this kind of division divisionary kind of politics where people feel that they aren't allowed to be proud of what the UK has done is because they think that we are overlooking the good things that we have done as a as a country and more importantly as an Empire I mean they're in my opinion they're very discreet compared to the the scale of kind of injustices done by the rest of the empirical sort system I don't know if it's I don't know if it's something that they are kind of excited about I think for me part of being British like I say that for me British values is being able to say that you're you're sorry and kind of being able to own up to your to your actions yeah except that many people would argue that that's wokeness and therefore the antithesis of British values but I guess the the multiplicity of that conversation and the freedom that we have to have it is something to celebrate celebrates a good word can celebrate things but personal pride is um well first it's also a bad thing isn't it it's one of the seven deadly sins isn't it it certainly comes before a fall James O'Brien on LBC 49 is the time please can you repeat says Andrea a firsttime messenger but longtime listener the name of the historical non-fiction book you are reading uh no I can't because it's a fiction book um beginning of a a rather excellent series and it's called a rising man Andrea by abir Muki set in um set in 1919 Kolkata when a when a young police officer arrives to take up a post in kolkata's police force and it has grabbed me in a way that there and I read a lot of historical fiction so one day I should record a podcast about all my that's not a bad idea actually we could do a podcast about historical crime fiction so many too many to mention but um I I do always try to mention my latest discoveries on the program um and in fact the more history you read the harder it is to claim that you have pride in British history you can recognize your luck or your privilege that's a weird one isn't it why do the people who object to the notion that have privilege that some of us have more privilege than others and for example in Britain at this point in history there is still some privilege attached to being white although nowhere near as much as they used to be which doesn't of course mean that there aren't white people who are um suffering desperately from inequality and unfairness but they're never going to be on the vict on the receiving end of institutional racism in this country but the kind of people who object furiously to the to the notion of privilege are the same people who in endorse furiously the notion of Pride well you'd have thought they'd be that would be a bit counterintuitive wouldn't you of course I'm proud because I've got privilege no you haven't got any privilege at all well what am I supposed to be proud of Mike's in Woodbridge in suffk Mike what would you like to say hello J hello Mike I've got two points I'd like to make firstly um if I'm going to be proud of my country the United Kingdom then I need to look at what it is that makes me proud through history and there are not a lot of things that make me particularly proud one that does though for example would be the National Health Service no it's not Pride Mike what's not Pride what you feel um I feel proud of the National Health Service no you don't well we may have to redefine the word pride we are redefining the word you feel fortunate you feel blessed no I feel proud of the fact that it was constructed by the nation for the nation and that's what makes me proud about it okay that's good that's a very good come back proud of the fact that it was con but then but there's lots of things that were constructed by the nation for the nation uh give me another one roads yes what of the Romans done FR well spotted um yes I mean you could there are certain things and possibly the railways it is it is it actually Pride rather than privilege or or luck I love I love the national heal show I think it is wonderful thing absolutely and that's what I'm proud of it because it started from from a looking at how to care for the people and it was expanded to All Parts all countries oh sorry all nations of the United Kingdom and and and it was there to serve all those people from the Cradle to the Grave and all the rest the brainchild of a Welshman as well brain well I am a Welshman so I I am a little oddly just to with my Curious fever dreams and obsessions the sort of TFT and Street type lobbyists who are also very much involved in trying to stop the National Trust from publishing history of National Trust properties because they worry about the impact that knowledge will have upon the plebs they're the ones that have got a problem with the NHS oddly enough quite often with the idea of of of universal healthc care and and and the like so it's a funny old world it is the other thing is that we are we are we've got a very poor definition of ourselves as a country because we're made up of four nations and really they've only been defined in the last 100 years when we when when Ireland separated away um we've we've only in the last I think 10 or 15 years decided which of our Nations um one of our counties belonged in um um uh Mia um it used to oscillate backwards and forwards between England and Wales and there'd be plenty of not so much Wales people but there'd be plenty of Scottish people listening to this or plenty of people in Scotland no plenty of Scottish people and people in Scotland listening to this who think that some of the stuff that we're describing in terms of Empire and Colony still applies today in the context of westminster's relationship with Scotland which which adds to the difficulty of pinning down precisely what it means British crime and there is the the law of unintended consequences because when because in the next Olympics in America the cricket is going to be involved for the first time we don't play cricket as an a a as a country we play it as four nations so we're not going to be able to enter is that true well you tell me how we're going to enter as a United Kingdom we don't play cricket as the United Kingdom yeah but we will we'll have to that will be an interesting one you be put to the four Cricket B well yeah but you know and I know that if you are British and you want to play cricket at the international level and you're good enough you'll play for England won't you I would go and talk to one or two Welshman and certainly a Scottish Man Captain in England once Mike there so you can that's my point you're proving my point for me he only only because he played in England oh really not Club Cricket we shall see I'm at the oval on Saturday Mike now you come to mention it well I was at the Lords earlier so all right you win thank you Mike see proud of that proud of that proud of it or just enjoying it sitting Lords in particular feels like you're you're sitting in the pages of a history book especially if you're in the kind of fancy bit with the MCC members but proud proud Pride I don't I don't know and yet yeah proud of the NHS not proud of being British but proud of the NHS proud of being from the country that created the NHS equals proud of being British so that's the best so far Ken is in twickham Karen what would you like to say oh hi James thank you very much you're very welcome so here I am living in the UK and I'm an American and so I have this point of view of what British people are like and inherently through that there's a sense of I get it and and I have an idea of perhaps maybe where we can rest the pride so to speak because it can get very convoluted and it can get very you know where it doesn't make sense to be Pride prideful of this and that looking back on British history you know there is this Grand sense of achievement with with what has occurred at this in our modern era and as we speak presently we can acknowledge the sense of achievement but we don't have to be prideful of it yes what we can to have a sense of pride of is and this is just from my observation and living among citizens here and being a resident etc etc how amazing it is to me and how delightful it is to me to watch people get on with one another and it's not really a very good ERA for that kind of enthusiasm it's not been a good couple of years has it but it hasn't and you know and coming from the United States I mean that's a whole other conversation now I know but um but when so what you're doing you're celebrating shed you and I and most of the callers this hour we we're we're talking about shared humanity and actually in some ways national pride is an obstacle to Shared Humanity Rec izing what we have in common and every country should have an nhf do you see rather than singling ourselves out for particular praise or particular pride it's about the things that are Universal values but there's there is that but I feel like when when you get down to the nitty-gritty of it and just with all of the people I've met and I'm a huge fan of your of your show and so I listen in a lot um just just uh just it's a manner of just um being intensely con considerate of one another as people and people living within the close proximity especially where I live in London and people get along and their you know yes we're out of time um but we we forget actually the the the the proximity that is common place in this country and not for everybody of course but it is consequence of the Industrial Revolution I suppose and population although inevitably some people got a problem with that thank you K thank you everybody apologies to Sarah to William to Matt to um Helen and and Nigel and others no not that one uh no time but we'll return to subject matter similar no doubt at some point in the future if you missed any of today's show you can listen back on catch up on global player where you'll also find all of lbc's shows to catch up on as well as all of Global's live radio stations uh so do download Global player for free from your app store or head to Global player.com coming up at four on LBC it's Tom swri but now it's Sheila foger James O'Brien on LBC