Goldie Hawn On: “Brain Breaks,” Curiosity, And How To Make A Romantic Relationship Last For 30 Years

Dan Harris: Goldie Hawn, welcome to the show. Goldie Hawn: Thank you. I've  been longing to be on your show. Dan Harris: I've been longing to  have you on this show, so it's,   it's, uh, it's finally arrived. I, I am  curious, um, I know that you got interested   in meditation and Buddhism in around 1972,  but I'd be curious, you know, how and why? Goldie Hawn: What is so interesting about  your story and mine is that it's similar. Um, when I started sort of becoming, I mean,  I was a dancer, that's what I was going to be,   and I had no interest other than dancing.  But what happened was I was pulled out of   a chorus line by an agent and he  set me up to another, I would say,   um, producers of a TV show. I had  no idea this was going to happen. I didn't really believe he was really being  true. So I forgot about the, the, the, the,   the meeting I was supposed to have. And, you  know, and so anyway, go there, they sign me,   boom. And now they put me up for an acting  job. And I go over there thinking that,   you know, this isn't really exactly  what I was thinking of doing, but I did. I went to Desilu Studios back in  the day, and it was the late 60s,   and what happened was, is that they  wrote a part in for me. So I auditioned,   but I knew that I was too young, okay? I was  not old enough to be who I was pretending to   be. And I said, I'm sure I didn't get that.  And I was going to go on to dance career. And as it turned out, they wrote a part in  for me. So when they write the part in for me,   I got anxious and I started having panic  attacks. And these panic attacks were   something that I had never experienced before.  Other than being afraid of the atom bomb   back when I was 11, I, I, I can't  explain what happened or why. Very happy child, loved my dancing career, I  always had optimistic points of view, and by,   when I was 11, people used to say to me, 12, what  do you want to be when you grow up, Goldie? And I   said, happy. And they kind of looked at me crazy.  But I, I'm not quite sure why I said that. Maybe   because I was going through my own some baby  trauma about being killed by an atom bomb. And so, but then this time, I absolutely  could not leave my house without getting   sick to my stomach. So I found  this job where I had to perform,   where I was needing to perform in front  of an audience. It was a three camera   show and I, I can't explain what I was  experiencing, although now I understand. People have these panic attacks, they have  depression, they have these areas of mental   health and mental instability, but then  I had no idea I was a carefree dancer. I   was happy girl. So for me to not be able to  go in public because I would get sick to my   stomach and have to go to the bathroom,  I would get dizzy and I was frightened. So what happened was instead of just wondering  what was wrong with me, I went to a doctor. And   I found a psychologist that I worked with,  as it turned out, for about nine years.   And I look at that and say, okay, the blessing  was the panic attacks. The route I took was to   get myself better, because it wasn't who  I wanted to be, and it wasn't who I was. And that led me in 1972, to meditation.  And I just decided it was the Beatles,   you know, it was like, you know, all those  wonderful things that were happening back   then. And I decided that I was going to  take and be initiated into TM. So I went   to get initiated. They gave me my mantra,  which is very secret, can't tell anybody. And then they, you know, ushered me into  a beautiful room with a flower and incense   and a candle and, and sort of beautiful wind  coming through the window. This was in Westwood,   California. And I can't explain,  it's very hard. It's sort of like   this holiness of Dalai Lama says, how  do I explain the taste of a tangerine? It's very hard to explain what it tastes  like. And that's what I felt. I felt joy.   I could hear my heart beat. I had silence,  quiet. I feel like I met myself again,   or I met my true nature again, and this was  my first meditation. And I'll never forget   what that felt like. So while I had finished  doing my, basically my psych, psychology,   you know, working with my psychologist,  I started in this world of meditation   and mindfulness and understanding what was  going on with me as a self discovery person. Who am I? What am I made of?  And all these questions that   are reflective. I found this to  be incredibly healing and very,   very effective, and took me, as we'll  talk about, into a whole other world. Dan Harris: The main dish for you, professionally,  is, is, uh, introducing mindfulness to children.   I will have mentioned that in the intro, and we're  going to get to that in a, in a big way coming up. But let me just stay with this narrative that   you're describing, that you're describing.  Personal narrative. So you mentioned TM,   that stands for Transcendental Meditation. It's  very popular, especially in Hollywood. I think   some of that may be because Maharishi Mahesh  Yogi, the guy who literally trademarked TM,   which is an ancient Vedic form of meditation, was  hanging out with the Beatles in the early 70s. Late 60s, early 70s, and so it got quite  popular. So I'm just curious. Is that the   form of meditation you practice to this day,  or did you end up taste testing other flavors? Goldie Hawn: Oh, I went to other flavors. I mean,  you know, um, Thomas Martin. I went to more,   you know, under trying to understand  mindfulness in all different areas. I've, I've studied a lot of religion, uh, because  religion does fascinate me. Uh, it's based in some   very, some, some religions based in some very  beautiful things. Uh, and I'm just curious about   the, the mindfulness and also their meditative,  uh, ways that they conduct their meditation. So,   you know, it's a journey for me to see that  this was a very basic notion including Jesus. And I've read, you know, books on Jesus,  Buddha, Jesus, these scenes, a lot of,   a lot of understanding about Jesus who, I  think that, that was another, I guess, voice,   if you will, to understand, you know, why, why  did he go to the desert? Why did this happen? And   there's just some, what I feel is that when we're  in a state of meditation, whether it's in whatever   religion you're in, Kabbalah, you know, is that  it asks also of you to rise above yourself. And that I think is a very important  aspect. We need more of that today,   uh, to be able to self examine who you are  and what you believe. And also feel that   feeling of incredible spirit of things that  we can't always answer, but we know that are   there for us and they fill our heart and  they fill our mind in a very healthy way. Dan Harris: It's interesting you talk about  getting out of your own head or rising above   yourself. I would imagine that's tricky when  you're incredibly famous and your product is you. Goldie Hawn: What, what I learned very early on,  because I was 21 when I went to a psychologist,   22, and but what I learned was through  my focused attention and my meditation,   but also from him, I learned that people look  at you as basically like a Rorschach test. You're really something that someone's  perceptions will put on you, whether they're   positive or negative. And I would learn  through my meditation to witness things,   rather than to be it, to actually witness other  people's behavior, knowing that everyone has a   different perspective. Everyone was comes with  their own set of problems and you never can   sort of look at why did they say that or how come  they love you so much and why is this happening? I didn't have to answer it. I just watched it. So  I didn't feel my ego. I didn't want to. I didn't   get that. I just became more scientific about how  I looked at these things. So I didn't go to bed   feeling bad or good. I just went to bed like  me. And, and I think that's what saved me by,   by climbing so fast to, you know, when  I was on life and it was like, boom,   you know, what happened, but that's, I  had so much study before that period and   continued on through it because had I not  had this skill, I would have been confused. you know, about all of it. But now I'm not.  And I wasn't then, because I was able to say,   Goldie was a darling or whatever, right?  I don't know. But in the meantime,   I really thought to myself then, I was, remember  I was 24 years old, and I thought, you know, they   love to build you up, right? You find something  new, this girl landed from Mars, whatever. But it's only so long before the press and  things like that want to bring you down.   And how I knew that at 25, you know, or perceived  that that way, gave me a just sort of a balance,   a level headed idea of looking at consciousness.  looking at people for who they are and for who   they think they are, um, without any, what do  you call, I'm not pushing, putting fingers,   but it helps me understand the vast nature  of the psychology of each and every person. Dan Harris: This, I guess, gets back to why  you described your panic attacks as a blessing,   that having a good chunk of therapy and  meditation under your belt when you were 24,   25 and, and we're in the midst of this meteoric  rise with Laugh In and all the movies that,   that led to, it allowed you to become sort of  panoramically famous with a huge Q rating and   all that stuff without letting it swamp  you the way it does so many other people. Goldie Hawn: Exactly. So we know if you're able  to actually decipher, um, your reality, you know,   in a way that makes you neither this nor that,  because that's kind of what it is. You know,   you're an entity, you're full of energy, you  are who you are. I had a wonderful upbringing,   just so you know. I had a father who was extremely  philosophical, uh, and, and, and so forth. So I had a good start, um, which is important  where parenting is concerned and so forth. But on   the other side, sometimes you're thrown into the  ocean. and you don't know where you're swimming,   and you don't know what it means, and then  fear takes over, and suddenly you're afraid,   and, you know, and, and I don't have a lot  of competitive, I'm not a competitive person,   right, so I didn't feel like, oh, so and so got  that part, and why didn't I, and all that stuff. I think the I kind of left my, you know,  my vernacular, because the I part of it,   is something that I own and I belong to,  but that doesn't mean I'm the best person.   It doesn't mean that I'm the one that  should be doing that role. That means   that someone else chose somebody  else and that was their opinion. And, and I respected that. It sounds a little bit  like, you know, Oh my God, you know, but it's when   I learned and how it's, it's important to have  family, to have your friends, to have, you know,   and don't hold grudges and. these kinds of things,  because you can't control everybody at all. So, I,   I was really, you know, I just went on my  way, you know, I did what I wanted to do,   I wasn't worried about what people said, I just  figured if I had good intention, I'd do it. And, and that's all you need to have. Dan Harris: In this incredibly competitive  industry, you weren't feeling a ton of   jealousy. And it reminded me of, um, this  thing I heard. I once heard Sharon Salzberg,   the great meditation teacher who I'm sure  you're familiar with. I once heard her say   this thing that the lie at the heart  of jealousy is that the thing that   somebody else got was somehow heading to  you and the other person intercepted it. But in fact, you were not part of that  situation most of the time. And if you can   take yourself out of it, it can relieve  you of a lot of unnecessary suffering. Goldie Hawn: Exactly. And fear, because fear is  a really important part of status. So if you're,   you're fearful that you don't have the status  that you had, or that someone is speaking ill   about you, or it's going to bring you down  in some way, then you can't be productive. You, you, you, you're totally focused on what you  don't have, and then you point fingers. I mean,   there's just so many things that lead to  retribution, being unable to forgive. I mean, it's   a whole litany of symptomatic, not just behavior,  but emotional contagion around that feeling.   So she's right. You know, it's always like  somebody else is going to get more than you do. There's this, uh, you probably  know this, but so science Uh,   research that was done many years ago is  that no matter how much money you have   or where you are in your neighborhood, if  somebody has five cents more than you do,   then it's going to create your imbalance of  having to get and jump that to trump that. And then that will make you feel better when  in fact, these are all these material things,   you know, that you want in the psych, we  talked about the hedonistic treadmill. I mean,   if I could just have that. I'd be happy if I, if  I, if I, if, if, if I could just get this job,   it would be the greatest thing in my life  and, and it, it would lead me to the next job. And I see all I need to do is that,  how do I compete with this? And I just,   I just don't have that gene, I guess, or the , but  I didn't have it. I mean. And people were funny,   they got roles and things that  I probably could have done,   but I guess I just looked at myself as  my father would look at me or my mom. And that's the way I saw myself. And when I  thought somebody, I mean, I can tell you a story.   We were set to do, it was Madonna and I, we were  set to do Chicago, the movie. And as time went on,   uh, I was co producing and, and so forth. And,  and, uh, It was, uh, an interesting experience   because after time I got this director and,  and did this and this is Harvey Weinstein and   I was producing because he produced some amazing  things aside from other things that he's done. But I mean, other than that, I was quite sure,  you know, whatever in the script came in and   the script was for basically an ingenue.  It was like an ingenue and, and I'm going,   wait a minute, I'm not an ingenue. Roxy  was sort of older and, and, and I said,   why? Why is she 23 years old? This is for me. And,  and he said to me, gal day, you can't play 23. I said, Harvey, what are you doing? We made  a deal. We have a pay or play. Why are you   doing this? And he said, well, you know, I  said, do you, or do you want someone else   for this role? As it turned out, I said to  him, here's the deal. I want to like you.   And I want you to tell me the truth. And the  truth was, he ended up giving me my salary. because I wasn't angry. All I said was, if you  think I can't play 23 with all the digital things   out today, I can. This is a lot of years ago. So  anyway, Madonna and I ended up not doing it. And   then he got a whole new cast. They got  a whole new thing. And I talked to,   you know, to him about this. I said, Okay. But when he gave me the money, I called  him. And I said, Harvey, I want to say   something to you. I honor you because you  have, you have paid off the very thing and   you showed you had a conscience. It's not about  the money at all. It's about the fact that you,   you, you were honorable. When the movie  came out, I went to see at the movie. It was fantastic. And I, I, I couldn't  have done a good job. I couldn't have   done that job. And I went to a party  where they were celebrating the movie,   and I went over to Harvey, and I said, Harvey,  this is a damn good movie. And he said to me,   Goldie, you've got a lot of class. And  I said, no, I just have a higher heart. And those are the ways that we can actually move  forward without anger, hatred, all those things,   holding it in, ruminating it all the time. I'm  ruminating, do you remember they did that and   how could they have done this? And the only  way is to let it go and forgive, but also stay   in your integrity. And that, these are like  lessons learned, but it worked beautifully. And it wasn't about the money at all.  And I told him that. I'd give it back,   except that I think you were supposed to do  that. And, and, so, it's a way we energize   and activate our teaching. And our teaching  is that. Move on, forgive, speak your mind,   but don't hold ugliness and anger. Because this  is poison, as His Holiness the Dalai Lama says. This is poison. Anger is poison. Poison  to your mind. It's poison to your body.   We don't want that. And ultimately  it will affect your health. So,   so I think that's kind of reason why we have  to hold on, as my mother would say, to your Dan Harris: kishkis. As your mother was Jewish,   kishkis is a Yiddish term for sort of like,  your guts, your viscera, like your feelings. Yes, yes. Goldie Hawn: Exactly. Exactly. Thank you. Dan Harris: So, do you, even now, do you, are  all these years later, is there nothing in your   life that, you know, pisses you off in an abiding  fashion where you have trouble getting over it? Goldie Hawn: Yes, I mean, there have been very  few, very few. I mean, I think that when I see   people, you know, one of the areas is with my  children, for instance, they made mistakes,   they did stuff, they were teenagers, they were  I never I got mad and I felt that they had to   treat people well, that they had to be humans  that cared, that they had to, I don't care if   you spill milk, just as an example, you know, as  a silly example, or have a party in the house,   you know, when mom's not, daddy's not there,  or the fact that they lied to somebody. That's when I get it. That's when I get angry.  And I look at some people's behavior and I'm   astonished. So when we look at behavior,  especially when behavior is done with you.   And I won't be specific on this, but  there have been moments where I feel,   where was their honor? How couldn't they  have just mentioned this to me early? How, why is, if we could get along that way,   then there are no mistakes? And why can't  people say they're sorry? There's so much   health and joy and wisdom in being able to  say I'm sorry. This is, these are the things   that I wish that we had today. I wish  we had the ability to say, I'm sorry. Dan Harris: I'm curious, getting  back to your meditative career, who,   you mentioned Transcendental Meditation, and then  Thomas Burton, the, Merton, who's the Catholic,   uh, theologian, who was very interested in,  in sort of exploring Eastern spirituality. Who, along the way, were the other  big influential teachers for you? Goldie Hawn: Well, first of all, I met, I don't  know, John Kabat Zinn many, many, many years   ago. And I, I, I think I had, um, a, a transparent  relationship with him because he is a brilliant,   amazing human. And his humanity is one of the  things that actually I was the most engaged with. I spent time with him in India, uh, at some of  the conferences in India and Dharamsala with,   um, His Holiness the Dalai Lama and a lot of  scientists. So we, we went a lot, you know,   to, to that. And he, he was, He's an  extraordinary human. And he's able to,   I guess, you know, when you have a contagion,   which I use that a lot because I think we get a  lot from that, and especially negative contagion. But at that point, he really looked at me and he  had so much love in his heart that it was one of   those things that I just entrained with him. So  he's one, but then there are others, you know,   I'm interested in, you know, Sufism. and how  and where their meditative states come in.   And I'm also interested in neuroscience  because neuroscience has also been my teacher. Because when you know, you know  what's going on in your brain,   then you actually understand what's happening and  the form of meditation of whatever kind you do   is that it actually strengthens your, you know,  your cortex. And the corpus callosum, you know,   that goes between the left and right brain,  um, and what an experience to know that is. I remember when, uh, Ritchie Davidson  and, um, one of the monks that I know,   who's amazing, did this, uh, MRI, okay, the MRI  was putting him in a heavily meditated state,   and what came out of, of Ritchie's  research was, is all the benefits   that actually happened during that time he was  underneath, uh, you know, inside the MRI, FMRI. And it was on the cover of Time Magazine. And  this is when I looked at this and thought,   this is amazing. I mean, the fact that we  can put meditation together with science and   understand the correlation of a healthy brain,  of a balanced brain, and ability to actually   critically think appropriately. We're building  so much, these assets that we have as humans. And then after it was that week, it was gone.  Suddenly it was gone. And I'm thinking, okay,   this is groundbreaking. The power of meditation  is groundbreaking. What it does is something we   should all be talking about today. So  this has got to be about 18 years ago,   maybe, maybe more. I never heard about  it again until I finally said to myself,   when we could talk about MindUp, That,  that part is left in a Petri dish. We're leaving too much information in the  walls of universities and Petri dishes and   no one is pulling them out to utilize them for  the greater good. So that was the beginning for   me to understand there are a lot of teachers that  we can go to, we can read about. Buddhism is one   of them. I spent a lot of time understanding  Buddhism because it was the road to happiness. And that's all I cared about at that time. How  do you take everything, all what's bothering you,   all the areas of understanding? And now when  you finally get that, then it all just looks   like just happiness. And for me, that was  the most interesting of my journeys because   it was cognitive. It wasn't just that you'd left  your body or your subconsciousness or your mind,   you know, drifting and going into another space,  which is gorgeous, but it's also about cognition. And once we cognitively engage with these positive  affects and basically implement them. then how   are we using the science that we already know and  offering it to everybody else outside of the Petri   dish? So this is one of the areas when you talk  about, well, who, who taught you, who, how did   this work? I, by my own example, I had a mantra  that was, His Holiness gave me, it was green taro. And that was my mantra. for I think most of  the time since I've known him. And I also   sometimes when I'm quieting my mind, I will  go back to my TM because it's not quite as,   uh, you know, so much, right? But I think that  that particular part was the most interesting,   to understand more about focused attention. And one of the things that brought me so much joy,  uh, when I would have, now this is just imagery,   this is not idolatry, okay? But in the past,  if you will, the Buddhist path, they actually   have different, you know, for instance, they  have red Tara, they have green Tara, you know,   they have white Tara. And each one stands for  another state of mind, another way of being. So if you meditate on your Tara, let's say mine  was green, um, I could image in my own mind,   and I've got my pictures everywhere, you know, in  my meditation room, but I can see her in my mind.   Every piece of her, every curly Q, every nose  construction, the mouth, the way the mouth went,   and when I would do that as my meditation,  I would get this like lump in my throat. I wanted to cry, but it wasn't tears of  sadness. It was tears of like joy. And,   and that's when I realized that I  was only focused on one thing. and   it cleared me out to find my happy soul  again. This is a personal experience.   This doesn't happen for everybody. Everybody,  people have a different kind of experience. But that was mine. And I got filled up. It was,  it was Extraordinary. And then there's Tonglen,   which is another experience where you, you,  you bring in all the sorrows of the world   and the sickness of the world. It's another  meditation. And with that you transform that   darkness into light. And now you can push it  out into the world in your own consciousness. So I would feel that light inside of my body,  right around my heart chakra. and I felt so happy,   so good, like I'm giving something back, I'm  trying to transform all the negative energy   I can into more positivity. Now look,  whether that happens, doesn't happen,   we're refining our own state of mind.  And I think the brain takes note of that,   because when you have a happy  heart, Your brain feels it. When you are experiencing stress, your  heart feels it. So reducing the stress   and being able to really focus in  on some of these things that make   you feel better. Because here's how life  is. If we don't do this for ourselves,   then we're looking away from the state of the  world. We aren't noticing what's really going on. So to become aware, to become empathetic, to  understand, and to understand how to take care   of yourself. Actually, if everyone could do  that, we probably would have a kinder world. Dan Harris: You will find no disagreement  from me on that score. You mentioned a couple   of different types of meditation. I'd love  to drill down on that, um, on both of them. Tonglen, Let's start with that. That  is a Tibetan Buddhist practice where   as you described you kind of breathe  in the sorrows of the world and and   breathe out compassion or benevolence  and it can The point is not necessarily,   and I'm echoing you here, to have some  sort of concrete effect in the world. This is a little bit different than petitionary  prayer and the Abrahamic faiths where you're   actually hoping that God will intercede  and make some sort of change here in our   earthly realm. more, at least as I  understand it, about changing your own mind,   boosting your own capacity for compassion, so  that you can be more effective in the world. Does that track with your understanding? Goldie Hawn: It does, but I will say  this, is that there are many things,   actually activities and things to do, in order  to get your, your brain and your, and your soul   feeling good. And one of them is, um, is God.  How do you define God? I'm interested in that   because for God, and even just the word of God,  can actually bring people some peace and some joy. So I don't think we need to necessarily say  I'm, you know, basically knitted with a God   consciousness, but I will say that my feeling  about aspects of belief is also a feeling of   belonging. And we as humans need to feel we belong  more, and there's something greater than us, and I   think it's humbling, I think it feels good, and  if God is what your, your path is, then as long   as it's clear that it isn't against anyone else,  and it doesn't make you better than anyone else. that there is an equal amount of ways to be  able to say, I believe, I believe in God,   I believe in energy. And I read a book called,  Why God Doesn't Go Away. And the other one is,   The God Part of the Brain. There were these two  books that I read that I thought were fantastic.   And what we, they're learning is, where is that  part of the brain that we're hardwired for God? Because we are. Go back to the agrarian days. Go  back to earlier than that. There was always some   level of belief system. Because we, our brain is  set up for that. It's not because we choose to,   you know, we can choose to do whatever  you want to do, but the idea that it's   also hardwired somewhere, up here in the, uh,  pituitary, up in the, in this area of the head. It's the, um, uh, I forgot. But, but my point is,   is that this, these are wonderful books  to read because God and the concept of   spirit isn't going away. What we're not  doing is paying enough attention to it. Dan Harris: You have a line,  you wrote a memoir called, uh,   A Lotus Grows in the Mud. Uh, and you have  a line, speaking of God, uh, from that book,   uh, that I want to read to you and maybe  get you to talk about on the other side. Uh, the line is, you know that feeling  just before you're going to laugh? That   thing where you get all bubbled up? It's like a  bubble of laughter, but it hasn't come out yet?   That's what God feels like. It's a  feeling of joy and love and well being. Goldie Hawn: So my daughter  I think Katie was like six,   and she asked me one day  when I came into her bedroom. She said, Mom, is God my cousin? And I  was a big one. And I'm thinking, okay,   how do I answer this? But I couldn't answer  it. But I said, yes, God is everywhere. I mean,   could be your cousin. I don't know. But  here's how I think you should understand God.   And this was off the top of my head, by the  way. Um, you know that feeling, that, that   feeling just before you're gonna laugh but you  haven't laughed yet and it's all tickly inside? That's what God feels like. It's better to  talk about what God feels like than what God   is. And when you have that feeling,  you'd know that you're very close to   a feeling, a God like feeling. Well, I  have that feeling when I'm meditating.   I don't call it God. But I know that  there's order out there in the universe. I don't know it, I feel it. And I think that  thought, prayer, not even, it's been known that   prayer actually does reach people, because  thought is energy. And therefore, why not? Dan Harris: The Ten Percent Happier  podcast is available early and ad   free over on our companion app, which  is also called Ten Percent Happier. No ads, and like I said, you get it early, about a  week before everybody else does. Relatable wisdom,   no distractions, download the Ten Percent  Happier app wherever you get your apps.   What do you make of agnostics slash atheist?  Although I guess I'm more of an agnostic,   uh, like me, what w are we missing out on  something if we don't have a concept of God? Goldie Hawn: I mean, to each his own, right.  So, you know, um, I would say I don't,   I don't know because I am a believer in things  that I don't even know about right now. Meaning   that I, that's what I love about life. It's what  I don't know what I will eventually learn. 'cause   I'm constantly searching, but. From my perspective  of what I understand, what I feel when I'm in this   place of, I wouldn't call it reverence,  I would call it interconnectedness, okay? Um, it's extraordinary, but it  doesn't have necessarily God in there,   okay? So this is what I'm, what I'm saying is  that if you don't believe in God or you know,   you believe when we die, you know, that's  it. Um, you will by nature need to find   your points of joy. And what I like is, is  that I like that I could reach down in my   heart and even imagine it and access a happy  heart, a connected heart, a heart that cares. So there's other ways to get that.  And that, for an agnostic or atheist,   they will find their ways. And if they don't,  or they never have that extraordinary feeling   of endless joy, and then I would  say maybe they are missing out. Dan Harris: You mentioned a few seconds  ago that you're constantly searching.   What do you think is driving that constant search? Goldie Hawn: Just curiosity. I mean, it's that  curiosity of why I feel the way I feel. When I   was, why did I have panic attacks? Where I,  you know, I had to go get up, meditate or do   something before I did a, when I was seen. I  mean, I had to go back in my little dressing   room to get on my couch. I want to know why.  I want to know why these things change things. I'm interested in it looking  at phenomenon and asking,   is this really phenomenon or is there something  at work here? Kurt and I did an interesting   experiment. We went to a place that does  a lot of research. It's in San Francisco,   was created by a, um, uh, because he  was curious cause he was an astronaut. Anyway, we went in there because I was  doing a documentary on joy. That was,   you know, some 20 some years ago. And the Joy  documentary was only there to remind people that   we might be missing a very important part of life,  because I saw traveling to India and everything,   people had nothing, but they were much  happier than the people in the West. But, but in terms of, you know, the,  the aspect of joy. Wait a minute, where,   I'm trying to think where I was. I think  I went off my, I went off my trajectory. Dan Harris: Oh, what's driving your search? Goldie Hawn: Oh, yeah, okay. So  we went to this place, Curt and I,   and I was doing this documentary on joy,  and I was interested in meeting someone. Well, it turns out that they did an experiment  with us, which they're doing all kinds of   experiments with what we've called non local  communication. I was fascinated. So Kurt went   into a little cabin inside of a room, but it was  hermetically sealed. He had on a heart monitor,   you know, the thing they put on your  finger and that to measure your heartbeat. He said, sit in this chair, which was a  very comfortable chair. He had a sort of   in circuit TV and there was some camera right  in the corner. And he said, whenever you think   of Goldie, Goldie. Just, you know, just look up at  the camera. They took me to a room down the hall,   around the corner and whatever, and put me in a  place where they had an in circuit television. And every time that they went to Kurt, I saw  it, and it was all random, and I saw that,   I would say in my mind, I'm seeing you, I love  you, I'm here, I hope you know I'm with you. and   that would go off. And then when it came  on again, I would then reiterate the same   thing. And I noticed that oftentimes he, when  I did that, he would look up at the camera. So after it was over, 83 percent of the times that  my camera was on, He looked up at the 83%. And   then I noticed that they kept the camera on him  at one point and he fell asleep. And I thought,   well, he looked up and then he just went, nose  toe stop. And I said, what, what, although he can   sleep while I'm talking, by the way, it's like,  Kurt, are you sleeping while I'm talking to you? Um, but what we learned was,  is that from their research,   When someone feels someone else from far away, and  they're praying or thinking of you or whatever,   you can catch that. And what happens  is your blood pressure goes down,   and you actually can doze off, which is what  he did, and his blood pressure did go down. Not that he has high blood pressure, but  my point is he became calm. He became,   because there was some person, something, the  energy that took that from him, and he just,   and and they said, this is proving,  we're trying to prove, not telepathy,   but an understanding of how we, why does prayer  help people? Prayer helped me with my son. I, I, I've, you know, I'm not religious per se,  person, but what happened was when he was born   as my son Oliver, and he was born with an, uh,  an intubated, I mean, he, uh, inhaled a meconium   and he had a 40 percent chance to live.  And this is my first baby. And I went to   see him wheeled up there because I also had,  you know, he stuffed with me because I had,   you know, all the stuff that  she had into the meconium. So they were, I was on high penicillin. So they  wheeled me in to see him and Nick Yu. And there   he was lying there. He was 11 pounds. So he  was, he was very big baby. And I looked at   this gorgeous baby. I swear to God, I felt like  it was my arm on that slab of metal and all the   heat lamps and the little things in his head  and, and, and his breathing and all this stuff. So I did this crazy thing. I decided  that I was going to pray over him. I   put my hand over his little chest, and I  can't explain this feeling, but I emptied,   I just emptied myself. I just emptied. I had very  strong feeling of just floating. And I asked God,   Please use me to heal my baby. Please  let me be the conduit to your healing. And I watched his heart rate go up. I watched  this happening and I called the doctors in and   he had a too low a heart rate. And he's, it  started climbing incrementally. And with that,   they came around, they said, my God, Goldie,  they said, you know, mothers can heal their   children and so can prayer. And from that  on, Oliver got better and better and better. This was 40 percent chance of living.  So I believe that there are things we   don't understand. And yes, I use the word  God because God meant whoever you are,   wherever it is, if it's energy, just please  use me. I'm a hollow entity right now. So,   you know, this is when you have a  curiosity, when things happen to you. and you don't understand why. That makes me  curious to know answers. I don't know if I'll   ever get them, but it keeps me fascinated with  human behavior, fascinated with our history,   fascinated with things outside, and also the  feeling that people get, like, look what happened   with the solar eclipse. I've heard so many people  say that something clicked in me when I saw this. Now, is that in their mind? Does it  tickle something in them? Did their   brain take charge at that point and give them  a sense of awe? You know, and awe is awesome.   It's a great experience. And does it  change or give you more perspective   about who you are and how you  feel and the, the magic in you? Dan Harris: What is your  meditation practice like today? How, how, how often do you do  it? How long, what is what,   what's the specific practice or set of practices? Goldie Hawn: Every now and then I will sit.  Okay. And I, I, I fall right in. You know,   it goes as quickly. Sometimes I  am so, uh, working on my program,   working on things during the day, that we  can make all kinds of excuses not to sit. What I do is I don't sit for 20 minutes.  I mean, I do, I have, my God, you know,   but I also take five, several times a day.  I'll sit there. It's like, this is what I   do sometimes when I say, you know, even if  I go to the, I do this too, which is crazy,   but sometimes if the tension is too much  around the table when you're eating dinner. I'll just go to the bathroom  and take a break and I will,   I will have a quiet time for myself and a  meditative time. The research which I'm really   excited about is whether you do 20 minutes  in the morning or 20 minutes in the evening,   if you actually do five increments four times  a day, it actually is very good for you. So in, in order to get handle of your day and  how it works, the brain begins to entrain.   to that experience. So you're actually giving  yourself this time five times a day when you do,   a little bit when you get up, and five minutes  when you have to lunch, and five minutes here,   another five minutes before you go  to sleep, or just get ready for it. Not, not before you go to sleep, but just in  the evening before. That research actually has   been amazing, which is one of the reasons why  we'll talk about it, but we have that in the   classroom. It's not five minutes, it's three,  it's three times a day. Uh, for three minutes. Dan Harris: So for you, it sounds like   you may or may not get to some formal  longer sit during the course of your day,   but the stopping down repeatedly has  a really positive cumulative effect. Goldie Hawn: It does. It does. And I like it  because what happens is, is that once again,   we can do our 20 minutes, which is very powerful.  I'm not saying that's not good. It is good. You   can do it for an hour if you want. Um, but  I think to be continually measured during   your day. and you practice that for on your five  times a day, then literally your brain goes a lot. I know where we're going. Okay, we  sit. So you're habituating this far   more during the day than you would  just an early morning moment or an   evening moment. Doesn't mean you can't do  that. And I think it's really, you know,   it's been measurably varied. Um, but it,  this is a way to actually train your brain. to return back to its  homeostasis, to where it belongs. Dan Harris: You mentioned, uh, um, taking a break  in the middle of dinner if things are stressful   around the table. Um, you've been able to maintain  a romantic partnership with Kurt Russell for,   by my math, more than 40 years. Is meditation  part of, uh, the secret to that longevity? And, uh, and what other secrets might there be? Goldie Hawn: Exactly. So I mean, personally,  I think that you have to want to be married. I   don't think meditation can help you because  circumstances are important. And if the   circumstances are not palatable and you can't  be in them, or you're in a relationship with   a person who's narcissistic or has some issues  around that, then you have to make decisions. And maybe in meditation you actually get  it, get the decision, you know, when you   quiet your mind. What you don't want to do  is be in a relationship where all you do is   ruminate how terrible that person was to you  and what you think you deserve. But I would,   I would give it a whirl to be able to  practice enough of your own practice. not for him or her, but for yourself.  And if you practice for yourself,   the outcome may be more clarity. compassion,  maybe more ability to forgive, and maybe more   of an ability to actually witness the other  person and forgive them, because sometimes   they can't change. We can't always change,  but we can manage, monitor, and become aware. So you, you, you know when people say,  well, they don't change their spots,   but we can rearrange. right? So that's kind  of the, the way I look at it. And you know,   sometimes when somebody pops off and does  something or you don't agree on stuff,   that can inflame you. But you got to say, Hey,  wait a minute. I don't think the way they do. So in this idea of separation of him and her,  or you and your partner is important because you   can't become your partner and nor should you. but  you can be more tolerant over their perspectives. Dan Harris: Joseph Goldstein, who's  a meditation teacher that I've worked   with closely for many years, has  this little expression that's   coming to mind as you're speaking,  which is, don't side with yourself. Goldie Hawn: I love that. I love that.  You already know yourself. Be who you   are. But the whole idea that is  so great because it really does,   that's part of the problem. Nobody thinks  they're wrong. Hardly to admit they're wrong,   particularly in religion, politics, these kinds  of things are very dangerous. Very dangerous. This is my perspective, it's okay,   it's not yours. Hold on to yourself  and your ideas. but don't defend them. Dan Harris: In a long running romantic  partnership, to be able to ask yourself   the question, well, why does that person  see things that way? There must be some   rationale rather than just going straight  to anger or condemnation or contempt. It's, it's very helpful. Goldie Hawn: It's, it's very, very helpful.  Um, I think there are hardwired things that   they can actually work on, but everybody  has a different kind of upbringing. I mean,   when you're dealing versus in politics, okay. I  had an upbringing that was a pretty apolitical,   you know, we, we didn't discuss  politics very much when I was little. Um, mom, I think was a Rep, a Democratic,  daddy may have been a Republican at some   point. I forgot who voted for Eisenhower, but  nobody, it was never a point of contention.   So I, I didn't, that wasn't one of my things,  you know, I, you know, I'll vote any way I want   and will continue to. I don't like labels, you  know, so there's a part of me that says, I'm   gonna just be an independent because labels, I've  never lived with labels, right, in my own mind. But the other person may be, uh, grown up with  a very arched, uh, conservative perspective   and then that's what, how you grow up. I think  that these are the things we should think about   rather than blame I think the mental health right  now we have to talk about, but in terms of just   looking at it like to clean without looking at,  I want to belong to this group because I don't   know what group I belong to, so I'm going to feel  better when I get to be that or I get to be that. That's different. But in terms of  just understanding how they grew up,   it's really important. So you can have a clear,   critical look at how this is happening  rather than, why is this happening? Dan Harris: So you made a real pivot, um, about 20  years ago. You still act, um, a big chunk of your   time is dedicated to an organization called  MindUp which brings meditation to children. Why did you make that? Goldie Hawn: First of all, let me just say this.  I am not bringing meditation to the classroom.   I am bringing neuroscience to the classroom,  because to me the road in is to teach children   about three parts of their brain, which is the  emotional system of the brain. Kindergarten   through eighth grade, people said you'll never do  it, you can't do that, and then I was doing three   times a brain break a day, and I call them  brain breaks, I don't call them meditation. Because back then when I started, it was  a mitigating factor. force of getting into   schools or understanding how this could  work is with school children. So that's   called a brain break. And I, uh, that was  my coin that you'll hear it by other people,   but that's what I coined it 20 years ago.  So just in clarity, it's mindfulness. It's becoming more mindful. but they're all  based in neuroscience. So everything in the,   in that product, MindUp, that product  is about everything you do correlates   to neurological connection. So they  know that when they give a gift,   what's happening in their brain. So we,  we teach them neuroscience for a reason. It gives them cognition. to having their brain  breaks. They get to know how to manage their   emotions because they realize that the  amygdala is basically out of sorts and   the prefrontal cortex has just gone offline  and they can't think. So they're learning   how to self regulate and this is the area,  because if we don't give context in cognition,   cognitive ways of understanding what's  going on in my brain, what's happening? That's why I did this, but I did it because I  wanted children to be happier and healthier. I did   it after 9 11, being very concerned with what was  happening with children during a time that I felt,   at least then, that the world had changed forever.  So I took everything I learned on my happiness   documentary, about the brain, about where we are,  and I created a panel of experts to create MindUp. taken from the original Happiness.  At that point, we went into,   and I did this in Vancouver, BC, and that  point we went ahead, created this program,   and then it started to be researched, because  I would not go out anywhere without positive   research that this actually worked. And what  happened was there is this woman came back,   she's Kim Schoenert Reichel, an amazing  research scientist at the University of   British Columbia, and she came back,  she said, Goldie, this is insane. I mean, I, I've been doing these programs for 20  years, and this was 20 years ago. And she said,   I've never seen research like this for 12  weeks. And it was a 10 lesson re, uh, program   at that time. We had children that slowed  way down aggression, way down. Kids work   better in the classroom. 83 percent said  they could make themselves happier now. They were talking about English and,  and math. Scores went up. They were,   the teachers were out of their mind, could  not believe their ability to self manage   their emotion. And one little girl in that  particular classroom that we found out that   she was now on a curb and her aunt was there  and her aunt pulled her off onto the curb. She was dumb. And she said, Auntie,  do you know what saved our lives? And   of course she thought it was going  to be her. She said, our amygdala. Dan Harris: Hmm. Goldie Hawn: So when the children really  understand the basis and the foundation   of how they think, feel, and become  overly emotional, they're learning now   how to breathe and focus and do their brain  break because they know that the amygdala,   which is like a barking dog, goes back into the  dog house and now the prefrontal cortex opens up. Now I can think better, analyze better,  create better. Remember Better. And all   of these things actually have context  to them. It's a story that they can   tell themselves. So then we did another  research, and then another research,   and we're one of the most researched programs  out there because I want to find out more. I want more information. So now what we're doing  is then we have done part of it, I'm going to   do the other part of it now, is a, basically an  epigenetic study. So how does three times a brain   break, understanding the brain, doing positive  psychology, threading it through your day,   so your day becomes an optimistic day, it becomes  a positive day, it becomes a great learning day. How does it affect your genetics? What  has come back so far is unbelievably,   I mean, my whole board just cried. I mean,   if we can prove. with other research that this  actually can change the expression and the of,   of, of our children's genetics in a way that  is positive. Then we need to look deeper at how   we are educating our children to be able to give  them preventative mental health program that will   actually do for their health as well  as their mind and their mental health. So I, I could keep going when it comes  to research. We're researching now,   or something that we're doing in New York  City. And that is, we have got a deal there   in New York City and we're working with the  kids in schools, but these are neurodivergent   children. How is it working with them?  And one of them in the class had autism. He was a non speaker. He could not speak.  He was, you know, obviously non verbal. And   then in fourth grade. He's now speaking  and so forth and surely quite autistic,   but he was asked by the principal now and he's  doing MindUp, he asked by the principal, would   you like to come up and ring the bell? We're going  to do our morning MindUp, you know, brain break. He said yes. He goes up there and she was  so blown away she called the office. Her,   this soul boy, not only rang the bell,  but he led the entire brain break. He   remembered everything. Sit quietly, put  your hands in your lap, rest in the chair,   take a deep breath in, let it out. She said  I was in tears. What I'm getting at is,   is that when we can prove that mental health  preventative programs in our classroom,   starting at an early age, we will then be  able to give children a gift of a lifetime. Dan Harris: Also, potentially have an  impact on the course of history because we,   so many of our problems these days are the result  of The amygdala. I mean, they've always been. Um,   but we, we, we've always had trouble managing  our emotions as, as a species, but now we have   nuclear weapons and a planet that requires,  um, global cooperation in order to solve,   uh, massive problems like nuclear weapons  and climate change, et cetera, et cetera. And so if we can't get over ourselves,  it's going to be a big problem. Goldie Hawn: I know. I mean, this is  back, back 20 years ago. You know,   well, for the other part of that  discovery for me is that I started   looking at the state of mind of children  after I thought, bring them happiness and,   you know, give them, you can do a good  positive psychology and make them happy. You know, that when I really ripped into  gear, my heart ripped into gear because   I saw that 10 year olds to 15 was the  third leading cause of deaths. And I said,   wait a minute. This, okay, I got to put  this into my mind. You mean children   aren't taking their lives and they're  so, and their medication is flying. And now we have, you know, all this other stuff,   which you've got 15 year olds and then looking  at the others, suicide of our babies. And I said,   what could be so horrible in their life? They  need, they need to have a childhood. What is   creating this stress? So these are the things  that put me into gear to try to find out more. And now today, more than ever, this thing  I remember saying back then, don't turn a   blind eye to this mental illness, because it could  grow if it's not taken seriously. And here we are.   Here we are. And everybody now is going, well,   how do we do and what do we do with this and how  do we handle it? And no one really has an answer. I mean, more nurses is not the  answer. More, you know, band aids,   which God bless them. I'm not putting it  down. I'm just saying we've got to really   think about what and how we're teaching our  kids. They go home and teach their parents,   by the way, on how to calm down. I'm  heartbroken because no one knows what to do. And that, that I think is that we just got out  of hand and no one was looking back in the day   when these symptoms were starting to become  present and we're aware of them, but. So,   but, but, but it keeps me going because I know  there's, I know that if we fight hard enough and,   and educate more. that this can do  some good for some of our children. I mean, I said, if this helps 10 people, Goldie,  if I just have to do this to see if it can,   we can do that, and if that's enough, I  don't know, because this is before I had,   you know, this whole organization.  But I did it because I just felt if   I could help 10 kids, maybe that would  be something. Now it's several million. But the truth is, and we're global, so,  you know, we also have, you know, you know,   schools in Shanghai and Hong Kong and whatever.  But my point in that, I'm not taking that lightly. Dan Harris: A while ago, when I was  first bringing up the subject of MindUp,   I misspoke and said you're bringing meditation  into schools, and you very gently, uh, politely,   uh, diplomatically corrected me to say that  it was more neuroscience and mindfulness. Um, is, is there a reason for that, uh,   specificity? Has there been? some pushback  from parents about meditation somehow being   linked to Eastern spirituality and  don't, don't voice that on my kid. Goldie Hawn: That was early days,   but I've corrected that because we're  based in neuroscience. And the reason I   want to base in neuroscience and not  meditation is for that very reason. And by the way, meditation has been  proven in some schools that they did.   It was a big site they did in the UK and  they did this with our adolescents. didn't   work. The research around it didn't show  any benefit. So that's why cognition is   important. It's why we substantively put in  the whys, the wherefores, and the reasons. That's why every trainer that we have, that they  ask, why am I doing this exercise? Sounds kind of   lightweight. No. Now, you're activating parts of  the brain that actually need activated every day.   So this is how we're changing and developing  brain. These little brains are developing,   they're in construction, and it's very important  that we infill those brains with the right things. And our educators also, we're  working all through New York City,   are loving this because they actually can  control their classrooms more. And for them,   it's helping them becoming better listeners  and more patient. Um, so I, I, you know,   you drop a stone, Dan, in the bucket, I mean in  the, in the pond, and it's going to make ripples. And without looking at it like, I'm going  to change the world, and blah, blah, blah,   I'm just helping. I just, just helping. So  those ripples will go out. And each child   that basically had mined up will actually  be affecting a lot of other humans along the   way. So that's the way I look at it. Um, so,  and also that's the answer to your question. Um, mindfulness was, was a terrible thing  back in the day because whatever you do,   you know, don't use mindfulness.  Well, in fact, I used to ask the kids,   do you know what mindfulness means? And they  said no. And I asked them in the classroom,   do you know what mindless is? And they  all went, yay! So we want to get mindful. We want to bring the world into an idea of saying,  just like your mom said, be mindful of the step,   be mindful of this, be mindful of yourself, be  mindful of the person next to you. Be mindful   of your ability to have an innate sense  of happiness and joy because you own it. Dan Harris: I was going to ask you a  question that, um, I get all the time. I'm curious you I think have way more  standing to answer this question, um,   as a person. As somebody who's worked with  children and also somebody who's a mom herself,   people, parents ask me all the time, how do I get  my kids to do this? Um, and I'm curious, what do   you say to parents out there who are interested  in getting their kids interested in meditation? or mindfulness or, or neuroscience,  whatever you want to call it. Goldie Hawn: Right. Well, it depends on  their age. First of all, you know, I mean,   you can start them young by lying down with  mommy and putting a, a basically breathing,   understand the breathing. We can also  do things like what I do with my kids,   which is when you talk to  me, can you look in my eyes? Cause I'm listening. So there are ways that  you can bring them calm. That's number one.   But when you start to understand how to do this,  the kids go home and they teach their parents,   right? So the parents will say, you need to  take a brain break. When you take a brain break,   then ultimately here's what's happening to  your brain, and you'll be able to think better. And this is a way when you actually can sit  quietly with them for two minutes. There's no   meditation here. Our brain's gonna take a little  break, you know. So you can put on a little music,   you can do a little thing, and you can breathe  with them. Because breath is everything,   as you know. So, you know, when you took  a nice slow breath through your nose   and out through your nose,  you can do that with them. And then you can talk about how calming that  was. Didn't that feel good? And so you do this   with your parents, but you don't send them away  to do it. You, the parents have to do it too,   because, you know, you're mirroring  for your children. You're, that's,   that's what we do. You know, they, they  look at us and that's what they do. So it's basically a choice and a practice  that you guys can do and you don't have to   do it every day. You know, you go slow with  the children so you understand that that's   something that mommy and or daddy and we do  together. And that's three minutes. That's   kind of the way to do it. And then you get  them slowly involved and as they get older. So I guess it's just sort of experiential. As  well, you know, so you, you know, these brain   breaks are so simple that anyone can do them.  But what happens is, and I see this often times,   that there's confusion around them. But  you don't need to confuse, you just need   to breathe through your nose and out.  You want, if you want a little chime,   which is really great because the kids can,  the brain attaches to that sound, right? So you can just do the chime and listen  to it as long as you can until you can't   hear it anymore. So what that does is  it gives this little tone that you get   to follow and your brain gets to follow  that tone and it automatically sort of   quiets them down. And then you breathe for  another minute and a half and you're done. So it's this nice habit and it's  extremely, extremely important. Dan Harris: Is there something you were  hoping to get to in this interview that   we didn't get to yet? Um, I mean, this  has been so much fun to talk to you. Um,   I just want to make sure that we hit  everything that was in your mind. Goldie Hawn: Well, if we're,  as we're talking about MindUp,   I would like to be able to say  that, again, It's, we are at mindup. org, so anyone who wants to learn more about it,   or you could call Hello MindUp. The more parents,  children, and teachers, and school districts   have heard this interview, they may be able  to just, I think, I think we need this. Dan Harris: So if anybody's interested,  go to mindup. org. We will put a link to   that in the show notes so that people  can go check it out for themselves. You said something about calling Hello Mind Up? Goldie Hawn: Yes. No, it's also, it's also  Hello Mind Up because that answers inquiries. Dan Harris: I see. Goldie Hawn: One is the website, which gives  you all the information and stuff. And then   if you want more information, you go to  Hello Mind Up. And that's where you say,   you know, we want the program  or, you know, your questions. Dan Harris: Um, well, excellent. Um,   thank you so much, Goldie Hawn, for coming  on the show. I'm glad we finally got you on. Goldie Hawn: I know. I'm so happy.  And, you know, that's kind of like,   I love the name of your show, Ten Percent  Happier. And that's ten percent of everything.   If we can get ten percent of all these  things, we'd be ten percent better. Dan Harris: A hundred percent agree.