On Background: Will a social media ban help our kids? | ABC Insiders

this is a very important issue and as I said yesterday many parents are telling us they need help and that's what our legislation is about our message to parents is clear we have your back well should children be banned from social media the answer to that question in Australian politics is now unequivocally a yes at least from the major parties you just heard the communications Minister Michelle Roland they telling parents the government has their back at the moment there's not much more detailed at the government's plans than that South Australian labor Premier Peter malancus was the first political leader in Australia to call for an age limit on social media the federal opposition leader Peter Dutton then joined the push a few months ago so politically the Prime Minister was under pressure to jump on board and this week that's exactly what he's done there's no decision yet on what the age limit for social media should be there's no detail yet on practically how this will be done and there's also a big question over this can all be sorted out legislated laws put in place by the time the election rolls around it's due early next year right now this is about signaling to worried parents but I'm ke to explore whether this is in fact a good idea at all is a social media ban the best way to keep kids safe I'm David Spears on N of all country at Parliament House in canra welcome to Insiders on background well everyone seems to have a view when it comes to to the impact social media is having on children Professor Sonia Livingston happens to be a leading World expert Professor Livingston is a British scholar at the London School of Economics Department of media and Communications she's advised the British government the European Parliament the oec and the UN committee on the rights of the child Sonia Livingston welcome thanks for joining us it's a pleasure so I thought it might perhaps be worth starting with an explanation of what the dangers are and what the benefits are of social media year when it comes to Children what do you think well they we do have a lot of research on both the benefits both the opportunities that social media offers children and the risks um starting with the risks we normally divide them according to the four C's there are risks of contact content what kind of content children see um it might be um violent it might be hateful it might encourage self harm there are risks of contact I think that's probably what lots of parents are worried about who's really getting in touch with their child risks of conduct we think of those as um uh bullying um sometimes sharing sexual images among the peer group and risks also of contract which is about the kind of commercial and datafied nature of the platforms and those same those those those risks um characterize children in different ways as part of different kind of networks with different motivations and those also apply um to the opportunity ities which are many and if you ask uh children and young people they will talk first and foremost about socialization social media is how they stay in touch with their friends they also talk about it in terms of um emotion management how they kind of relax um escape a stressful school day um kind of uh recover the their sense of self if you like um and of course you know social media are a fantastic resource for information and um learning well I guess the question for parents and and for legislators as well is whether those risks outweigh those benefits and you know often it's pointed out that we have seen since the arrival of smartphones and social media a rise in mental health problems self harm suicide eating disorders and so on is it is it evident though that this is caused by access to social media well you know um identifying clear causes is always difficult in social science we're talking about children in all their diversity as they grow up over perhaps uh 20 years it takes to to grow up so many many factors um always account for the outcomes that we're worried about is a child growing up healthy and happy I think it's fair to say research now suggests social media plays some role in that and it plays a greater role for some children than for others but but it it it's it's it's never the sole cause you know it's not the thing that makes makes an otherwise kind of happy healthy child um uh have some really kind of problematic outcome so we have to see it in context and we have to think what is the balance of effects for for for children if it is playing a role though in those negative impacts what do you think about the idea of a Flatout ban whatever the age might be and we can come to that but Banning it all together for children is it a good idea or a bad idea you know I think if we went back um 15 20 years to the start of social media we would not say the present situation is what we wanted we would not design it that way and we would we would have put different laws in place 20 years ago actually I think some people were calling for them then and we should have done um so now we're in a a situation where I think people are feeling quite frustrated with the efforts to regulate social media platforms they're feeling quite frustrated with the um options that they have as consumers in a Marketplace for different kinds of platforms different kinds of phones different opportunities for their children so a ban to me um it's too crude it's too um it's to um the same solution for everybody it's not a solution because we know that um it what it's going to be very hard to introduce that we as you say we can come to that I've been listening to the the news all week and there's a kind of slippage from um Banning Social Media platforms and the harms that they might offer children to Banning children and banning children is against children's rights it's against common sense um it's um a very simplistic solution to a very complex problem if it is too simplist explain why you think it's too simplistic and crude it sounds like an argument that there are coming back to the benefits that are there for children there should somehow still be a right for children to access those social benefits so in the 20 years we've developed social media other things have happened as well we have I I don't know so much about Australia I can see in many countries um we have made it quite hard for children to go out freely and mix with each other after school parents are very worried about traffic they've kept their children home you know social media for um Society has become the way for children to see their friends to hang out to kind of share a culture together they've moved away from television you know lots of other things have happened um so now to ban social media leaves us with a problem what are we going to put in its place have we got the youth clubs the parks the um Safe Streets for children you oh are we ready to put something genuinely beneficial in its place and it's really interesting we've all become so anxious about letting the kids the streets after school that they have no other Outlet right and and I think in many um countries the phone has seemed like um a solution for parents to kind of keep their children safe where they can see them where they can keep an eye on them um I don't think anyone you know I think everyone wants a balance if you ask parents research with parents research with children says they would like a balance they would like to be free in their inperson life they'd love to see their friends more often in person um but they also think social media is a place for some experimentation a bit of risk-taking that their parents might not favor you know children's task in growing up in a way as to stretch themselves to develop I don't say social media is the ideal place as at present you know my emphasis will be on redesign and better regulation but what do you say to the argument that a ban at least tells parents tells teachers tells kids as well that it you know and this comes to the age limit whether it's 14 15 16 that age it's really not okay to be on these platforms you know maybe there are other things you could do uh with the device online uh or even you know get out and run the streets with your friends if if that's what the family wants but there are other things you can do but there's this social Norm that at that particular age you really shouldn't be on Tik Tok and and these other platforms so so I I think the difficulty in this conversation is that the platforms are what they are and they have not really responded to what it is that either parents or children want so they are designed to be attention grabbing they are designed to push ever more extreme content at children young people I think we could probably um all agreed that that should that is not what we wanted for our children and that's not what children want for themselves that's a different thing from saying um we've given children uh for good reason uh expensive intelligent device that can connect them with others and provide them access with information so you know I really do think it's the um it's the design and regulation of the platforms that is our problem but given that we H as societies have not managed to deal with that effectively yes um I understand the frustration that calls for a ban um it needs to come with Alternatives and it needs to come with other ways for children to um be sociable have that social connection no exactly develop that social skill um but if okay well if a band's not the right approach just let's talk about what you're suggesting is a better solution uh when it comes to well explain to us fixing the way these services are provided by social media uh platforms what practically can and should be down there well we we are at a moment also of um experimentation with regulation which is why it's kind of curious that the call for band comes now so um in in a number of countries there are new um new regulations for Online safety which um companies are beginning to respond to platforms are beginning to respond to and put in more safety mechanisms we um uh there's a lot of uh development of online privacy and data protection which is um beginning to limmit the ways in which platforms can grab children's data and uh use it to um personalized um content feeds that might be harmful for them we're not there yet um and everyone I think would have liked this to have happened um much faster coming back to the risks that you initially identified whether it's the bullying whether it's the unwanted contact those those negative impacts of social media is it possible on the the platforms kids like to use to address those with regulation it is uh but it will change I I think the The crucial thing is the platforms will say they don't know who a child is that really does matter actually when it comes to implementing the ban I I think it will mean that the platform offer will have to change for everybody um and we what may be the shift we need is more of a kind of a an opt in to for adults to violent or pornographic content rather than um it's there for everybody and you know we don't we haven't figured out a way of making an age appropriate experience we haven't figured out a way yet of making a child-friendly experience there are markets for children's um Services there are markets for teen Services platforms are not diversifying those markets because they're in a kind of winner take all mentality they want the one um cheap to run platform that provides the same thing for everybody and and so wouldn't they need an incentive to find that other offering that would be more age appropriate for kids would a ban at least give them the push they're going to need to make these changes and deliver a service that's okay for kids um it's possible it is possible and it depends what the legislation is going to look like so we're hearing a lot of talk about um smartphone bans as well rather than well I think I'm I'm just a bit allergic to the word ban in relation to children because it it seems so you know seems so Draconian and heavy-handed I think um but we are beginning to see diversification in the market different kinds of phone offers phones you know for children phones where there are different controls phones where the um uh the um not all apps are available you know I think we we just have a very um a kind of one siiz fits all solutions a black and white approach definitely not working yeah look we're seeing a lot of schools State jurisdictions here in Australia you know imposing banss on phones and so on but can I ask you about where we have seen some jurisdictions go with social media bans for kids I think Texas Florida Spain they're all a little bit different is it possible to know at the moment whether what impact those bans or restrictions have had or is it still a bit early um it's it is early and it's also so um it does worry me that we don't always do the evaluation to see if some if a policy works and there's something about the world of tech that means we're not evaluating we could have we could have learned a lot more over different um ways of implementing um children's digital lives in the last 10 20 years um I could say for smartphone bands and schools we haven't really done the research even though these policies are being implemented everywhere there are a few studies they tend to suggest it can work um but there it's a simpler question it's if you remove the distraction to children learn better in the social media and children's General lives it's if you remove the means of both risk and opportunity what happens what is the outcome and we haven't done that research yet so we don't know well uh presumably there will be more research and you're right it's always good to follow the follow the evidence um but there there is an Almighty Rush at the moment to make these decisions if you take a nuanced approach to this and Professor Livingston we do appreciate you bringing uh well you know a more nuanced approach to it thanks so much for joining us today pleasure and if you have any thoughts on this conversation the idea of a social media ban for children or any other ideas for the podcast do drop us a line insiders at abc.net.au and we'll be talking about this on Sunday morning on the couch hope to see you then for