Live: Watch the ITV Leaders' Debate

e e e e e e e e e e e e seconds e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e live in sford for the very first time in this election it's sunak versus starm the ITV [Music] debate it's the first head-to-head debate in the 2024 general election with these two men who want to run the country Rishi sunak and kiss Dharma well good evening tonight's debate is set against the toughest of backdrops since the UK last went to the polls we've had a pandemic Putin's invasion of Ukraine and a cost of living crisis which is still hitting families hard huge geopolitical threats Loom large not least of course climate change we all know how tough It's been we don't need the politicians to remind us so what are these two men going to offer us who are they and why should they earn our vote can they level with us when we know that finances are almost impossibly tight later tonight you'll be able to see what other parties are offering when they're interviewed live on itv1 by Anushka aana and the conversation will continue on the national and Regional news but now let's get on with tonight's debate k starma your opening statement please thank you very much this election is all about a choice more of the chaos and division we've seen for the last 14 years or turning the page and rebuilding with labor I have ambition for our country and have a practical plan to deliver it I've changed the labor party and put it back in the service of working people now I'm seeking your backing to change our country to make it work once again for you and your family thank you Rishi sunak uncertain times call for a clear plan and bold action so I'll keep this simple in five weeks either K starma or I will be prime minister Beyond raising your taxes and raiding your pensions no one knows what labor would actually do but you know what I would do I'll cut your taxes protect your pension and reduce immigration I have a clear plan for a more secure future for you and your family family thank you Rishi sunak well we invited viewers from right across the country to submit questions we have independently selected the questioners here with us this evening I'll also raise some points made by people who couldn't be here the two leaders don't know what they'll be asked also here people who'll listen to tonight's debate some have voted conservative and labor in the past and think they will do so on July the 4th and some have voted for other parties or are undecided you can join the debate Wherever You Are by using the hash icv debate and just before we go to our first question a reminder that each leader will have 45 seconds to respond initially now our first question on the cost of living Paula from Huddersfield Paula good evening both I have worked since I was 15 years old and at the moment I hold a full-time stable job my children have left home in the last few years I found it very difficult ult to make ends meat and the money simply doesn't go far enough all I do is work to live my food bill is nearly doubled I'm in AAS with my bills I spend my weekends back cooking so I don't have to turn on my oven in peak times my savings are gone and I'm genuinely worried about my future I don't think you actually understand how this is for people like me so what can you do about that thank you very much indeed Paula for your question richy sunak well Paula I know how much of a strain the last few years have put on your family finances the family Finance of everyone in our country and that's why my priority has always been to do what I can to support you that started with bold action like the Furlow scheme during the pandemic and more recently my clear plan to bring inflation back to normal and now our economy is growing again wages are rising and crucially we are able to now cut start cutting your tax taxes but I know you're only just starting to see the benefits of that as you described so the choice at this election is with my clear plan and bold action to keep cutting your taxes to give you Financial Security or put all that progress at risk with higher taxes 2,000 worth of high taxes under the labor party thank you Rishi sunak K Paul I'm really really sorry to hear the position that you're in it must be really really difficult on a daily basis and there'll be millions of people watching this um who feel in a similar position to you that the cost of living crisis is really bearing down on them with constant worry I'm not going to pretend that Ukraine and covid hasn't made things worse but this government has lost control Liz trust crashed the economy they made it worse here than in other countries and it's people like you that are paying the price because if a government loses control of the economy as they have it's working people that pay the price and Liz truss's advisers are in the house House of Lords she's going to be a candidate at the next election Ry sunak is putting her forward we've got to stop this chaos got to stop the division turn a page uh and start to rebuild under labor thank you for those opening statements 45 seconds each just to turn to you first K Dharma the uh point that Rishi sunak made is the economy is growing again the plan is working is his view well he says the plan is working he says the plan is working so the question for him is is why is he called the election now because if he thinks things are going to get better towards the second half of this year why is he called it now he's called it now because he knows and I'll ask him this he knows inflation is going to go back up he knows Energy prices are going to go back up in the Autumn that's what he's not telling you so he says the plan is working but I don't think he believes the plan is working because if he thought the plan is working he wouldn't have called this election right now richy I do I think it's it's slightly ironic cuz from the moment I got this job K starma was telling me call an election call an election and now that we've called an election he's saying oh no don't have an election cuz I don't want to tell you what I'm going to do and this is the choice this is the choice for everybody the plan is working of course I know everyone is only just starting to feel the benefits of it but inflation is back to normal wages are growing taxes are now being cut K sta would put all that progress at risk he would put up everyone's taxes by £2,000 £2,000 in higher taxes for every working family in our country after all the hard work and sacrifice we've been through that's not the right course of action I don't know why you want to put up people's taxes Paul I just don't know how you feel when you hear a prime minister say having heard what you're going through that the plan is working it's all all right I meet so many people who are struggling with their bills and the Prime Minister just keep saying he lives in a different world that if people are struggling with their bills why do you want to make it harder for them by saddling them with 2,000 worth of higher taxes how is that going to make Paula or anyone's life easier could you respond directly to Rishi this is the prime minister who's been part of a government that has put up tax 26 times the last Manifesto that they had in 2019 said we won't put up National Insurance this man then put up National Insurance he's the he's the British expert on tax Rises they're at the highest level for 70 years and he's got the goal to say other the people are going to I know you're going to hear a lot about the past in this election but this election is about the future this election is about the future and I'm clear that I'm going to keep cutting people's taxes as we now are you want to put everyone's taxes up by £22,000 and this is really important Independent Treasury officials have costed Labor's policies and they amount to a 2,000 tax rise for every working family no this is important mark my words labor will raise your taxes it's in their DNA your work your car your thank you okay sorry it I'm just going to no I'm just going to just draw breath there a moment please gentlemen we're going to be talking about tax again later on I just want I just want to I just want to bring this uh part of the debate back very firmly to Paula's question um she made it very clear how hard her life is at the moment you did acknowledge it both of you she spends her weekends batch cooking so she doesn't have to turn her oven on during peak times there is worry here right before our eyes that were being e echoed across the country one of the key points that Paula says is this says I don't think you understand how hard it is for people like me what are you going to do about it how do you actually connect with Paula rishy sunak well I'd ask everyone to judge me by my actions you saw what I did during the pandemic when disaster struck our country I implemented the Furlow scheme because I knew the impact devastating impact it would have on people and you know what every week when I'm out and about someone comes up to me and tells me how fur saved their family saved their home because that's who I am and I don't want to put that progress at risk I want to delivering Financial Security by cutting people's taxes whereas the labor party want to keep putting people's taxes up and that's not going to help anyone over the challenges they fac wants to know what you're going to do about well I think what you puts the prime minister is how does he connect and Paula what I would say is this uh my dad worked in a factory uh he was a toour maker my mom was a nurse and we didn't have a lot of money when I was growing up and we were in a position on occasion where we couldn't pay our bills so I know how that feels in our particular case we had our phone cut off because we didn't have the money so I do know um the anguish of worrying when the postman comes with a bill what is that bill going to be can I pay are I don't think the prime minister quite understands the position that you and other people are in I do want if I may just answer please respond to that please because this election is about the future and making people's lives better now I've got a clear plan to ease those anxieties that Paula and everyone is facing because things are tough I want to make them Easier by continuing to cut your taxes the difference at this election is K dama is going to put your taxes up by £2,000 so if people are wored about their electricity bill their food bill than much 2,000 worth of tax Rises are not going to help with I'm I am going to draw a line under this part of the debate we're going to be talking about tax again later on and uh also to both of you we'll be talking about that Paula thank you very much indeed for your question uh we're now going to go to the issue of Health and Social care which like some other issues that may come up in tonight's debate is a devolved area that means policies set directly in Scotland Wales and Northern Ireland and the UK government sets policy for England so our next question is about the Health Service and it's from Janet from Telford Janet thank you I've interacted more with the NH house lately than the average person I'm a cancer survivor my son is a nurse I recently lost a cousin who was waiting for surgery no what is brave enough to tell us the truth the NHS is broken be honest with us how long will it take to fix it thank you very much indeed uh Janet K Janet I'm really sorry to hear about your own position and that of your relatives um my wife works in the NHS in one of the big London hospitals my mom was a nurse my sister was a nurse so the DNA it runs through my DNA and and you can imagine just how angry I am that it's been broken and it has been broken exactly as you describe it's unforgivable what's happened to the NHS and and to come into power for 14 years and leave the NHS in a worse State than when you found it is unforgivable in politics and rishy sunak stood 18 months ago Janet and said that those waiting lists which are now nearly 8 million he said he'll get them down he made a promise he said it'd be held accountable they were 7.2 million at the time now they're 7.5 million so they've G and that be found on the NHS well Janet thank you for sharing your story and I'm glad that you've recovered and I'm sorry for your loss as well now my dad was a GP my mom was a pharmacist so I'm speaking as someone who was brought up in the NHS surrounded by people who dedicated their lives to it and the evenings in my house growing up my parents spoke about how they could provide more care for their patients like you and that's how I think about the NH yes and of course it's difficult and you're right and we have to be honest about the damage that Co has done and the time it will take to recover from that but we've put record funding in we're training more doctors and nurses we're doing more checks and scans and what I want you to know is that the NHS is safe in my hands I will always stand up for it to give you and everyone else the peace of mind that it will be there for you and your families when you need it thank you very much um Janet put this question K starma agreed with the part of that question that the NHS is broken your response to that richy soon well the as Janet knows and everyone knows the NHS is still recovering from covid we went through the best part of two years where the NHS couldn't conduct all the treatments it normally would and it is going to take time to recover from that but we are now making progress the waiting lists are coming down but what K sta didn't mention to you which you did Julie 7.2 million they're now 7.5 million he says they're coming down and this is the guys are good at math yeah they are they are now coming down they are now coming down 7.2 when you said you get them down 7.2 million then now 7.5 million I'd like you to explain how they're coming down because they were coming down from where they were when they were higher on the way down they are down right yes because the NHS was impacted by industrial action and if it wasn't for that half a million appointments would have been safe somebody else's fault no no but let me address the question because as you said Julie the NHS has devolved so different parties are responsible for the NHS and different parts of the United Kingdom K T's party responsible for it in Wales now the NHS has been impacted by covid everywhere but things are difficult in England I know that but if you were in Wales you would be waiting 40% longer for treatment ambulance and A&E times are the worst in Great Britain and one in four people are on a waiting list so yes the NHS has challenges but it has challenges everywhere regardless I'm looking at Janet's response when all the prime minister can say her is that um what the position is in Wales Janet I don't know you may not be interested in the position in Wales you may be interested in the position that War facing and want a prime minister who takes responsibility for what he is responsible for but what you'll get with a prime minister is somebody who makes a promise saying I will be held personally responsible for bringing those waiting lists down at the moment they don't come down what does he do he blames everybody what did personal responsibility act sorry can I just intervene there and ask very specifically then K starma what would you do about the doctor strikes that Rishi sunak raised can you answer that very directly to Rishi sunak we've got to resolve them and for months and months and months the Prime Minister hasn't resolved them they've been arguing about who gets in the room you've got to get in the room you've got to resolve it because the NHS needs to get back to work but we've also got to bring down the waiting list we've got a plan for 40,000 extra appointments each and every week that's 2 million a year to bring those waiting lists down they're at a record high and under the last Labor government the record was waiting list right down satisfaction in NHS at a record high that's completely been turned on its head I'm really grateful for everyone in the NHS for working so hard and we have now settled pay Rises with everyone in the NHS except for the junior doctors and of course I want to do that to make sure it's fair and affordable though but despite being offered the most generous pay settlement anywhere in the NHS and indeed the public sector the union are demanding a 35% pay rise and I don't want to raise your taxes to pay for that because I don't think it's right but I will say this so when K says he'll resolve it he hasn't explained to you how but I will say this answer that k d well we wouldn't pay the 35% we've already said that to the doctors we can't afford it because the government's already broken the economy uh and there are many things that now can't be afforded so we're not going to pay that but what you can't do is what the Prime Minister has done which is to say you just said you'd resolve it so what would you do at the end of the day so you're not going to give them the 35% pay rise that they're asking for so how would you resolve it just standing there and saying I'll resolve it isn't an answer that's not a plane Minister how would you resolve it prime minister your record is no no how would you resolve it you want to be prime minister how would you resolve the strike how would you resolve them I wish he had as much to say when Li trust was crashing the economy could you answer richy's point please K I will when I can get a word in edgeways um his record is of saying I'm not going to get in the room to negotiate and what have we got we've been in the room to nego what have we got ongoing strikes we have to end these strikes the gr the grown up way to do that is to get in the room and to negotiate with the doctors and come to a settlement there's only two ways forward one is a continuing strike which is what we've had for a very very long time we're now four and a half weeks from election he's going to kick it into the long grass or you get grown up you go in the room and you resolve this that does not mean you agree with the 35% we can't afford that but we have got to I'm going to pause it there on the I'm going to pause that there please because I want to return to another part of Janet's question that you did touch on that she lost her cousin who was waiting for surgery these waiting lists are a matter of life and death a quick uh point of information to both of you if you had loved ones on a long waiting list for surgery would you if you felt that that was the only way forward to use private healthc care rishy sunak yes kiss Dharma no absolutely no if your loved one was on a waiting list for surgery no thank you very much I I don't use Private health um I use the NHS that's where my wife works in one of the big hospitals as I said it runs through my de okay thank you we've had the answers to that uh very clearly I just want to pause there to move on to a different aspect of debate on the NHS everyone knows that fixing the NHS depends on fixing social care 5 years ago Boris Johnson was standing where you both are now told me there was a plan ready to go on this we're still waiting will you both now commit to a fully funded solution in your Manifesto this time round yes or no Rishi sunak yes well we've already implemented charging reform Pilots are in place to implement the reforms they will be rolled out later this year next year it be fully funded in your Manifesto we've already given social care an extra 8 billion because the pressures are immediate and the pilot reforms are there for char we heard that answer yes or no we will have a plan for social care and like everything else in the manifesto it'll be fully costed and fully funded it starts with the workforce because as you know uh one of the biggest problems in Social care is that the workforce is fragmented uh poor conditions of many many well you talk about the workforce if I if I could pick on this Workforce question because it is important because there's no way to get Janet and everyone else the care they need without a Workforce but the British Medical Association all right warned that K's pension tax risks an exodus of doctors we're talking about doctors from the we going to Gentlemen please but it's all joined up but this is an important you very much indeed we're going to come on to tax very short shortly I'm going to say yes tax will run through a lot of what we're discussing this evening we will return very specifically to it and I just want to stay uh on the issue of public services and take a quick fire on education okay we've had uh Harry a me a message from Harry who's a teacher just starting out and Deborah who has been a Primary School head for 40 years they both been in touch with us to tell us effectively the same thing they that they cannot believe how bad things are in their sector they want to know what you can do for them Rich sunak yes well I think education is the most powerful way that you can transform people's Liv that was something that my parents raised me with and I'm grateful to all our teachers uh for what they're doing which is why we're backing our schools with record investment at the moment but also reforming how we teach our kids which is why I'm proud that right now English school children are the best readers anywhere in the western world and that is Testament to the hard work of teachers and the reforms of this conservative government well there's a pattern here isn't that we've just been talking about the NHS and Janet says it's broken we've now gone to education and the teachers say that's broken as well and I know the Prime Minister has already said in the first however many minutes of this debate that he doesn't want to have anything to do with the last 14 years I'm sorry prime minister you may want to just cast it off but everybody else is living with it when it comes to schools we desperately need more teachers because in secondary schools we do not have the teachers we need so for example on key issues like maths we don't we have math being taught and parents watching this will know by Supply teachers by PE teachers but not Math teachers so we would have in place one of our first steps would be to recruit 6,500 teachers to fill those gaps which will help the existing teachers who are struggling to cope with the with the mess that this government's left them in so tell rishy sunak why you're going to raise VAT on private schools to achieve the money that you say you will spend on those extra teachers why are you making that choice tell Rich she soon because I believe every child should have the teachers they need in the core subjects like maths and I think for a child in a state Secondary School who doesn't have a core teacher in something like math is going to live with that for the rest of their lives it's not a one-year problem or a two-year problem if they're in their gcses it's for life and therefore we will have 6,500 recruits we will we will get rid of the tax break on private schools to pay for it that's a tough choice I do understand that it's a tough choice but I want to make sure that children the chances that they you've explained the policy thank you Rak if you'd like to respond directly to I don't agree with it because I think people who work hard and aspire to provide that education for their kids should have that freedom that's what my parents did and I'll support it but you heard it kiss armor is going to raise taxes but that's just the start because there's a long list of other things that he needs to find the money for so it's not just going to start and stop there there are £2,000 worth of tax Rises coming for every working family in this country and as I said he's saying to he's going to raise taxes that's not the start and that's not the that I do need to answer that because he put that figure out this well what's happened here is uh it's a classic they put in a pretend labor policies to the treasury and then they get a a false readout so I'll just tell you what they've put in for this analysis is a mental health policy that isn't the labor party's policy he's put in one of his own policies he's asked the Civil Service to C cost it they've come up with this figure of £2,000 the ex independent civil put itce I do need to deal gentle look Gentlemen please may I just say that people can have a lot of figures to get their heads around tonight I'm not saying that people aren't more than capable of calculating that rapidly at home but I do want to actually draw the focus then given we're on this patch very specific speically onto the question of tax I want to talk very specifically about tax before we finish this first half of our debate can we clarify the similarities in your positions please raise your hand if I am wrong you as prime minister will not raise income tax you will not raise National Insurance in the next Parliament and other than labor on private schools you will not raise vat thank you for that instructive moment we've had a lot of viewers getting in touch to ask where is the money coming from to solve the huge challenges to solve the huge challenges raised by Paula Janet and many others are you two gentlemen being honest we will raise specific taxes and we've been really clear what they are we've already dealt with the tax break on private schools we want to end the non-dom status completely I think that the super rich should be paying their tax I want to get rid of the equity loopholes that are there again for the super rich and I think the oil and gas companies should be paying their fair share towards our energy so we will raise those but we won't raise the others yes well we have already scrapped the non-dom regime and we have a 75% tax on energy but Independent Treasury civil servants have costed Labor's policies and it's £2,000 but you are for specific J so let's have a specific difference please let the triple us so that we raise the personal allowance for pensioners and ensure that the state pension is never subject to tax that's what you'll get under a future conservative government Karma hasn't matched that pledge which means for the first time in our country's history if labor are elected pensioners will pay tax I do not think that is right you should explain to everyone why you think pensioners will be paying a retirement tax under your government what the Prime Minister done say for on the two weeks of this campaign is to make desperate gimmicks and put them on the table he's told us he's going to get rid it's their policy to get rid of National Insurance altogether that's 46 billion pounds he said it's their policy to get rid of inheritance tax that's 10 billion pound he says he's going to get rid of uh tax on nonsense just answer the specific question we have committed I can tell you thank you not over each but this is we've committed to the triple lock plus under us the state pension will never pay tax under you there's a retirements tax coming for britsh pensioners I think it's appalling explain to people why do you pensioners should pay tax on the state pension okay the big problem with Liz truss is that she made is that she made unfunded tax cuts the prime minister is doing the same thing heard you heard everyone you asked you you asked about it it's very clear Pion under K starma will pay tax on the state pension for the first time in our country's history a retirement tax talk about the past all he wants that in the future pensioners have got a tax rise coming under your government gentlem please why you want to do that to pensioners why do you want to put up their taxes we're just going to take a pause there I just want to put this on the table The Institute for fiscal studies independently has assessed that you are joining in a conspir y of Silence in not acknowledging the scale of the choices and tradeoffs that will face us after the election unprotected budgets that's budgets for areas outside of schools the NHS and uh defense they could face up to 4% of cuts a year one word can you rule those cuts out are you being level with us one word with us yes or no we're going to continue investing record sums in public services no we're not going to go back to austerity I ran a public service for 5 years the crown prosecution service I know how hard it is you don't have enough money I believe in our public service thank you K starma thank you Rishi sunak for the time being we will take a breath after the break we'll be discussing immigration climate and we'll take a closer look at what sort of leader Rishi sunak and K starma would be don't go away [Applause] oh e e e e e e welcome back to sunak versus starma the ITV debate the first half was dominated by the cost of living and public services and just a little information for both of our candidates here please an appeal from me not to speak over one another we want to make sure that everybody can hear what you're saying that was a gentle reminder it may not be so gentle next time we now turn to another important issue in this election and that is immigration and our next questioner is Steph from Warrington Steven thank you politicians have broken so many promises on immigration why should I trust either of view to do anything about such large numbers of people risking their lives to cross the channel uh to to gain access to the UK illegally thank you very much indeed Steven Rishi sunak Stephen immigration is too high and we will need to take bold action to bring it down whether that's legal migration where we're going to introduce a new legal cap to guarantee that it will come down every year or the boats which you mentioned well we got the numbers down last year by a third and now we have a deterrent ready to go migrants have been detained the flights will go in July but only if I'm your prime minister if K starm is elected all those people will be released the flights will be cancelled and we will have no deterrent to stop the unfairness of people crossing in boats so that's the choice for you at this election stick to our plan and illegal migrants will be on those planes with labor they will be out on our streets thank you very much Rishi Sun K St well Steven um the levels of migration are record high 685,000 it's never been that high save in the last year or two the Prime Minister says it's too high well who's in charge who's in charge he's the most liberal prime minister we've ever had on immigration we've never had numbers like this before and he says that you can believe him on the boats nobody should be making that Crossing across the channel 18 months ago the Prime Minister made a promise he said just like the NHS promise personally accountable for it that he would stop the boats this year alone 10,000 people have crossed on boats that's a record number so again he's made a promise and he's completely failed to keep it thank you Rishi respond directly to kiss over the last 12 months the number of Crossings have down a third because the plans we put in place are starting to make a difference but the choice of this election is about the future I believe you need to have a deterrent the only way to stop this problem is to say to people who come here illegally they cannot stay and they will be removed moved if I'm your prime minister the planes will go to Rwanda we will have a deterrent so the simple question for K armor is what will you do with people who come here illegally tell what will you do with them very simply what will you do with them that's what I'm going to do we'll have a deterrent what are you going to do we need to smash the gangs that are running this vile trade making a huge amount of money putting some of the most vulnerable people in boats across the channel they're making a fortune before I was a politician Steven I was the director of public prosecutions and I worked with the police and prosecutors in other countries to bring down terrorist gangs who are running across borders I do not believe it's impossible to bring down these gangs what I won't do is engage in a an expensive gimmick the Rwanda scheme if he believed it was going to work he wouldn't have called an election before it could be tested he wouldn't have done it K sta said smash the gangs we put new laws in Parliament that have now led to almost a thousand criminals and people Smugglers being arrested serving hundreds of years is in jail cuz we do need to smash the gangs K Stormer voted against those laws so as ever you say one thing here but your track record says something completely different and you can't be trusted to tackle immigration so why are the numbers why are the numbers this year 10,000 record numbers why is that because this is a challeng this is a growing challenge but I've got a plan to deal with it because I'm going to put people on planes what are you going to do with them I can tell everyone what I'm going to do you might not like it but I've got a plan because we've got to have a deterrent what are you going to do just tell everybody what are you going to do with illegal migrant to arrive please can we just please gentlemen we will lower our voices kiss dama please respond directly to there's a pattern of behavior here he said he would get waiting list down they've gone up he said he would stop the boats we've got record numbers coming the promises he make are not worth the paper they're written on his plan is failing we do have to deal with this problem Steven we absolutely have to deal with it we have to smash the gangs that are doing I will never accept that the only criminal gangs that can't be taken down of these vile gangs I've taken down terrorist gangs in my past I've seen how it's done I know it can be done we'll have a border security command if I'm prime minister and we will get that done and stop this vile trade and those boats coming over with very vulnerable thank you very much I'm just going to I'm just going to call a pause there thank you very much a very specific question to you if I may sunak and that is on the European convention on human rights if your Rwanda plan is blocked by the court and will this appear in your Manifesto that you would remove the UK from the European convention on human rights is that part of your plan will that be in your man crystal clear I believe all our plans are compliant with our International obligations but if I have am forced to choose between securing our borders and our country security or a foreign Court I'm going to choose our country security every single time so that's a yes excuse me can I be clear that is a yes I've been crystal clear I will choose our country security ahead of membership of a foreign Court every single time very very clear answer K stama respond to that directly to uh Rishi suat please no if I'm prime minister we will not pull out of international agreements and international law which has respected the world over because I I want the UK to be a respected player on the global stage not a pariah who who doesn't agree with international law and those laws were put in place after the second world war after the horrors of the second world war when all um governments all countries came together and said never again and to rip and it was a conservative government Church fingerprints are on this instrument so important was it for the conservative party this conservative party is a million miles away from the conservative party of all I have a direct question to put to you uh K stama uh you sound quite similar just to confirm for both of you um on the issue of safe routs are safe routes for people crossing the channel not the answer kiss dama well I don't think anybody should be crossing the channel in relation to some countries um I do agree with safe rot so for example well just give me the example Afghanistan where everybody will observe the terrible scenes when the Taliban took over and people people you know risk their lives to interpret for our forces ET ET I thought they should be allowed to come here to safety and I supported the safe roots for them to do so there are circumstances where I do believe that's the right thing to do Ukraine is another example we just need to keep this brief yes or no to Safe roots for those we should have safe loots but when we've controlled our borders we will be able to have a conversation about the right number to accept we've been a very generous compassionate country but we talk about European conventions 20 European countries almost now have agreed with my Approach believe that you need to be able to return people to a safe country otherwise you can't solve this problem we still haven't heard from K starm and this is meant to be a debate about the future I will put people on planes to create that deterent multiple other European countries agree with that what will you do with illegal migrants who come here what will you do with them will you would you would you consider processing Asylum uh claims in a third country K starma yes if that was uh possible to do it in compliance with international law of course but just just let me deal with this because so you do now agree so you you just Chang do now agree with third country deals thank you very much I just get a word in Ed Mr sunak Mr starma at the moment people are arriving by small boat and not having their claims processed by the end of the year that means there'll be a 100,000 people in hotels at taxpayers in spense who are not having their claims process that means one thing they cannot be returned and that's why return have gone down by 40% on his Ro now he'll say again well don't don't don't look at the last 14 years I know that was terrible don't look at that I'm just looking forward but I'm sorry we're all living with the consequence of your awful decision thank you gentlemen thank you very much indeed for that we are trying to get as many topics thank you no thank you I'm just going to draw a line under that we are just trying to cover as much ground as possible I'm sure you both understand that thank you uh we're going to turn now to our fourth question from Omar from Manchester Omar thank you um I'm worried about the UK's lack of leadership on the world stage I want our pm to be strong enough to take a stand even when it's hard so what should happen next to stop these awful scenes we're seeing in Gaza thank you very much indeed for that question Omar and uh that question there it ite it has a wide range to it but very specifically it is about the Hamas terrorist atrocities of October the 7th and then what unfolded after the scenes of which we see on our television news every evening uh so I'd like you both please to address uh that particular situation a lot of people have been very uncomfortable with the stance that both of you have taken on this how would you respond first to kis well Omar the situation um in Gaza is intolerable it's catastrophic um tens of thousands of people have been killed disproportionate number of women and children so Omar what we need now is a ceasefire a cessation of the hostilities straight away and for these purposes which is really important because it's a very grave situation firstly we have to get the hostages out they've been held for a very very long time and I dread to think that the state they're in secondly we desperately need humanitarian Aid into gas but desperately it's catastrophic thirdly and this is where the leadership piece comes in we have to find a path to a lasting resolution that has to be a two-state solution and we need to show leadership on that and I know that if we're elected into office if we're humble enough to serve that will be my solemn Duty Rich yes Omar it's an awful situation and I'm pleased actually that K sta supported alongside me Israel's right to defend itself in the face of the atrocious attack that they suffered but right now you're seeing that us have put a deal on the table which we strongly support together with our allies to bring an immediate end to the hostilities release hostages get more Aid in and then build towards a lasting settlement with a two-state solution we've LED in providing more Aid to Gaza something I'm proud that we've done our troops have helped build the port that's being established but more generally the world is a more uncertain place what Hamas doing is indicative of the dangers we face which is why I've made the Bold decision also to lead to increase investment in our country's defense CU I think that's necessary to keep you safe everyone safe it's something that the labor party have not matched thank you very much indeed uh for those serious considered responses to the first part of om's question uh you raised a question there very specifically at the end of that statement Rishi sunak raising the question about our security or otherwise under the potential leadership of K starma do you really think the man standing next to you is a threat to our national security I don't think the labor party can be trusted to keep this country as safe as the conservatives the world is a more dangerous and uncertain place than at any point since the end of the C war I've made the decision to invest more in our defense taking it up to two and a half% of GDP labor party have not matched that and worse than that the person who would be Deputy Prime Minister under K Arma does not believe in our nuclear deterrent the ultimate guaran of our security so no you can trust the conservatives with our country's security and my track record and our commitments prove that K this is shocking before you tell before I before I was a politician I was the director of public prosecutions I was working on National Security I was dealing with terrorist plots one of them that we prosecuted was to take down seven airplanes as they were halfway across the Atlantic they were going to be blown up that is one of the cases that I prosecuted knowing how important it is to keep everybody in this country safe and sound imagine what would have happened if those planes had gone down for the Prime Minister who was at the time making money betting against the country during the financial crisis that's what he was doing when I was acting on National Security to now say that somehow National Security is safer in his hands is insulting and it's child okay thank you a very brief response to that well I would rather had my job than work for extremists like Abu katada and hisb an extremist organization abuat and hisb teria were who you work for as well so people can Google that and have a look but there's a Clear Choice desperate I'm investing more in our country's defense up to 2 and a half% of GDP okay you are not doing that so how can you tell people you will keep them safe when you're not willing to invest more in our country explored both those positions I'm just going to just draw a breath there just once again we've got a quick fire question for you from Steven from West Sussex who sent us a question and asked just very quickly a very brief answer from both of you would convicted criminal Donald Trump be someone you as prime minister would want a special relationship with KZ dama if he's elected president of the US uh then we will deal with him it's up to the uh people in the US to decide who they want as their present president and the special the special relationship transcends whoever fills the post of prime minister and president because it's such an important strong relationship thank you Rish yes because having a strong relationship with our closest partner and Ally in the United States is critical for keeping everyone in our country safe thank you for those brief answers Rishi sunak and K St we're going to go on to another question now and this one is on the uh very uh pressing issue you on climate change and we're going to go to CLA from South London hi CLA thank you the world is facing a climate catastrophy now both of you have broken promises on the environment what are you doing to put climate at the very center of your policies thank you very much Rish well CLA I have two young girls and this is what they talk to me about more than anything else and of course we're going to tackle climate change and get to Net Zero this election is about how we do it and I don't think that British people should solve a global problem all by themselves which is why I'm also prioritizing our country's energy security and your bills we've heard a lot about the cost of living challenges today so I have made some decisions bold decisions that will mean that we can save all of you thousands of pounds still meet our targets and we can ensure our country's energy security the contrast is clear at this election cuz K starma will reverse all of the changes I've made that's going to cost everyone and you thousands of pounds and make our country less energy secure by Banning North Sea energy and that I don't think is the right cause for our country thank you K this £2,000 he keeps saying it's going to cost his absolute garbage we won't go into the details of it but CLA let me address uh your point because this is really important a transition is coming that's very important when it comes for example to energy a transition to Renewables I don't think we should just see that as a challenge it's a huge opportunity because if we go to Ren reable energy that means cheaper bills Renewables are cheaper not just for the short term but for the long term it gives us energy security so it means that Putin can't put his boot on our throat and the result you've all been feeling for the last two years but it also gives us the next generation of jobs other countries have realized Renewables is the future they're in the race I want the UK to be in the race I want us to RN the race when it comes to hydrogen offshore wind solar nuclear the question I ask is why thank you very much that's 45 seconds kiss we're going to try and stick to the rules if we can there very specific point that CLA makes in her question both of you have broken your promises on the environment will you acknowledge that rishy sunak no we're going to stick to the targets we put in place but we're going to do it in a way that saves you all money I'm not going to impose thousands of pounds of costs on you to arbitrarily rip out your boiler change your car convert your home when we've been talking about the cost of living challenges earlier in this debate I don't think adding thousands of pounds of cost to you is a right thing now K St is going to reverse those changes that I made so everyone is facing thousands of pounds of higher bills that is at this election let K sta respond to that and address the issue of broken promises please respond directly to what it's hard to respond because he's making up as he goes along but uh let me do the best uh that I can because the promise I made was clean Power by 2030 it's one of my five missions CLA one of the most important things that I want a an incoming labor government with the driving Cent of purpose to achieve clean Power by 2030 that's the promise I've made that's the promise I'll keep it'll be in our Manifesto it'll be fully costed and fully funded but the prime minister is slowing down on the climate change the problem with that is not only is that inconsistent with our obligations it will cost more in the long run head in the sand stuff's going to reverse the changes I made to install a heat pump now if you don't need to costs about 7 or 10,000 to convert your home again if you're in a terrorist house in Darlington £10,000 changing your car sooner than America Canada Sweden France Germany as he wants you to do thousands of pounds a simp choice this election if you think labor are going to win start saing let k d respond to those specific points k d well uh the company that the prim has been using to try and trail out these figures has done some analysis which is actually published today prime minister you obviously haven't seen it what they say this is the company he's relying on is that will cost more the 2030 plan if you're with the Prime Minister than with you're with a labor government and that's been public I don't know whether you've been too busy or you perhaps haven't seen it but the very company that he relies on to trot out these false figures is actually saying it's more expensive with the conservatives than with labor now I would like you just to answer that anyone can go online when they get home go and see how much it will cost to convert your home go and see how much it will cost to install the heat pump go and see how much it will cost to change your car those are all the things that he's going to force you to do sooner than it's necessary you can go and see tonight the thousands of pounds that's going to cost you said it before I'll say it again he is going to put up your taxes put up your bills as clear as night follows I'm going to just return very briefly to cla's question she's talking about a climate catastrophe now what are you doing to put climate at the very center of your policies very briefly I want to set up Great British energy this is a publicly owned company that will generate energy that will have investment alongside it it'll be owned by the taxpayer making money for the taxpayer and drive us to Renewables so that we can have lower bills secure energy um and the jobs of the future I also think that we should insulate our houses because I think people are paying far too much in their bills and we and that was a project that was started 10 years ago and cancelled under the conservatives when they said cut the green crap we've left we've lost years I'd get on with it and get your bills down because people have fed up with energy bills that gone through the roof thank you very much indeed for that uh we've got another question a very important question from miles from ilford for both of you now hey miles thank you like many young people I completed my final years of six form under covid restrictions started University under them and I've had to deal with a cost of living crisis a housing crisis and an unstable world what future can you offer my generation and when will we become your priority thank you very much indeed K well miles what I think is really important is that you have the further education opportunities that you need whether that's University um or technical skills I think either are perfectly they're equivalent they're really important my dad was a tool maker so he went down the skills route I was the first as it happens in my uh family to go to to University so we would ensure that those jobs are there for you for the future that you have the opportunity to get on we'll build the houses so you don't have to be what 30 something 35 36 before you own a house under this government but what I won't be doing I won't be doing is sending your national service some sort of teenage Dad's Army um which uh uh would be what the Prime Minister would say forget going on to University he wants to send you off uh to to to to to National service thank you very much k d marishi sunak you know we have an enormous amount to be proud of as a country but we do need to do more to make sure our young people like ums get the opportunities that they deserve so that's why we will introduce a modern form of national service and I think it's going to be transformational for young people in our country giving them the skills and opportunities they need to succeed in life fostering a culture of service in our society bringing it together but also strengthening our resilience and security for the future and I think it is going to be something that's incredibly positive but beyond that I want you to have Financial Security so when you get that job when you save for that house we make it easier which is why I want to keep cutting your taxes so you can keep more of your money build for a deposit for that first house and not saddle you with £22,000 of higher taxes thank you very much indeed rishy sunak K starma called the national service proposals a teenage Dad's Army what would you say to that Rishi yeah I think tell him tell him why you don't think it's that yeah I whatever you might think of it it is an idea that's transformational for our society well the arm don't like it they say he can do all he can do is sneer at it sneer at it because you don't have any ideas for the future you don't have anything that's bold that's going to transform our country for the better in fact everywhere I've been since I've made the announcement I've had people talking to me about how they think it will be wonderful for their children how they think it will change our country for the better and it's example of the Bold action that I'm prepared to take to do things differently to deliver a more secure future you don't have big Ideas like that they've been in path for 14 years and after 14 years with a few weeks to go before the election they come out with this desperate idea it was such a brilant here why for 40 14 years has your not government not lifted a finger to do it it's a desperate attempt now the election's being called to get some attention put something on the table the other thing I would the other thing I would say is this it is very important miles is that the money the Prime Minister says he's going to use for this national service he's going to take away from leveling up remember that problem Miss in 2019 we're going to level up we're now he going to use the money for national service uh and the Army say and the military say this isn't going to help us cuz we don't have the wherewithal to train people and it'll take away from our own resp thought through it's not sensible it's desperate could you respond very specifically on those points actually having spoken to lots of people from the Armed Forces they're very supportive of the plan and they think it will do brilliant for them over time to attract people into the Armed Forces and actually the money that we spend on leveling up is partly spent spreading skills and opportunities for young people and I think this is the best way to do it but again you've had 14 years 14 years with nothing to do but think about the future but you have nothing to say about it and all you can do is talk about the past and it's clear there are no big Ideas here if we want to transform our country for the better and deliver a secure future you've got to have leaders who are prepared to do big bold things I am say don't have St on the one hand he says these are all the big ideas that KIA starma is coming up with and they'll cost a fortune then he says he hasn't got any big Ideas I do appreciate why he doesn't want to talk about the last 14 years he's ashamed of the last 14 years he's not said tonight in this debate one thing saying this is our proud record vote for me because we got a great record he can't say that he can't say vote for conservatives got great leaders been through burnt through five Prime Ministers so all he can do is say please look at the future don't please don't look at what we've done in the last 14 years we cannot have five more years of this got to draw a line we got to turn a page and thank you very much yeah and and miles is listening very patiently to all of this and I want to root this in his question whatever the two and fro on that issue may have been between the two of you you're both homeowners the most common living arrangement for 18 to 354 year olds is living with their parents do the young need to change their expectations of home ownership now do we have to be realistic about this the young people of this country deserve some honesty y rishy Sun yeah it is too hard to earn your own home and I want everyone to feel what I experienced when I got the keys to my first flat because it's a very special feeling and we need to make it easier and that's why we've delivered a million homes in this Parliament and we'll keep building homes in the right place but not concreting over the countryside as labor would do but crucially we need to make it easy for you to save for that deposit and that's why I want your hard work to be rewarded I don't think we should be taxing you more cuz that's just going to make it even harder for you to get on the property l Su on this specific point I think what you rais is really important because for young people the dream of home ownership is all but gone the average age for owning a home now miles is late 30s that's shocking because I know what your own roof over your head means for an individual it meant the world to me when I was growing up so we will build 1.5 million homes picking a number requires a plan and if those homes are going to be built we're going to have to change the planning laws to make sure we can get on with it we're going to have to make sure our Mayors and authorities have the powers they need to put the homes in the places and we need to make sure the amenities are there the schools the health CS Etc to support those homes so we've got a clear plan to deliver on the homes that will make sure miles that you get that chance for the dream far earlier than you do Under This failed government all right thank you very much indeed there was so much that uh was in the question from Miles thank you very much indeed for that and uh we're just going to come now to a final quickfire question it's um been a pretty serious uh evening in terms of what we've discussed so far um just to both of you apparently there is another big contest on this summer for many it's the biggest contest and that is of course the Euros we know you're both football fans you are not the only leaders Under Pressure to win and sometimes accused of not being exciting enough so here slightly with my in cheek if you'll forgive me both of you is a question that we've literally just had in from Gareth who's on his way to Germany what is the best leadership approach play it safe or take some risks and go for the win what would be your leadership style Rich richy soon quickly well not to give advice to Gareth Southgate who when I met him we did discuss who had the the worst job in Britain in terms of other people giving you their opinions um but I say you need to have a clear plan and you need to take B action because you don't do anything without those things thank you very much richy K briefly game plan good and he's got both of those I really think England are going to do really well this year got a fantastic uh Team uh and I'm really radical or do you play it safe sorry you you need you need a strategy for winning so it depends who you're playing what the issue is that's what Gareth does he's very very good at this and he's built a squad okay and and just like I've got a brilliant sh cabinet okay thank you very much gentlemen for both to those answers on the footy thank you and we go now to the candidates closing statements first of all kiss starma thank you I don't offer you the gimmicks or unfunded promises that Rishi sunak does I don't pretend there's a magic wand that will fix everything overnight instead I offer a practical Common Sense plan to change Britain this election is about who our country works for the simple patriotic belief that Britain can be better and must be better imagine how you would feel waking up on July the 5th to five more years of the conservatives five more years of Decline and division the arsonists handed back the matches now imagine turning the page with a labor government that rolls up its sleeves and gets on with the job that puts the country back in your service the choice at this election is clear more chaos with the conservatives or the chance to rebuild Britain with a changed labor party thank you K starma rich either K starma or I will be your prime minister and a vote for anyone else makes it more likely that it will be him agree or disagree with me you know what I stand for I'll always have your back as I did with fur but with k starma apart from higher taxes you don't know what you'd get and neither does he and we've heard a lot about change from him but change to what K starmer is asking you to hand him a blank check when he hasn't said what he'll buy with it or how much it's going to cost you in uncertain times we simply cannot afford an uncertain prime minister if you don't know what you're going to get with labor don't vote for it on the 4th of July choose lower immigration lower taxes and protected pensions choose a secure future with the conservatives thank you very much indeed rishy sunak and K starm well that's it quite a night we've come to the end of our debate you've heard from Rishi sunak and kiss Dharma head-to-head tonight you can also hear what other parties standing in this year's general election have to offer in the I TV election interviews with Anushka Asana coming up next the conversation will continue not just here on ITV on our national and Regional news and next Thursday guest we'll be back to host itv's seven party election debate and then in just over four weeks you ultimately get to decide who runs the country from all of us here in sford good night [Applause] [Music] [Applause] e e e e e e e e you've just seen sunat versus starma the conservative and labor party leaders talking policy and making their pitches for power in the 2024 election now with the future of the country at stake we have four more parties who also want your vote Welcome to the TV election [Music] interviews good evening I'm Anana tonight Rishi sunak and K sta came face to face asking you to trust them to run the country well in the next hour the liberal Democrats the SMP reform UK and the green party will be giving their pitch for power and talking policy will they persuade you that they are a better choice for the future first up we'll chat to Sir Ed Davey fighting his first election as libdem leader the snp's leader in Westminster Steven Flynn is here waiting in the wings is Richard Ty leader till yesterday now chair of Reform UK and we'll be speaking to the co-leader of the green party Adrien Ramsey we'll hear their vision of the future and get their respon respon to tonight's debate before we speak to Sir Ed Davy here's a flavor of what the liberal Democrats stand for we could get the Fair Deal that people so deserve liberal Democrat leader Ed Davy is one of the longest serving politicians to lead a party this election he served in the conservative libdem coalition government in 2010 but this time the libdems have ruled out an election pact with the Tories at least instead the party is targeting conservative heartlands eyeing up the constituencies of several cabinet ministers boyed by recent byelection victories can they increase their representation in the House of Commons it is not always easy for smaller parties to grab attention which might explain this and this Ed Davey said this was an attempt to bring attention to Britain's polluted waterways a key election issue for the lib Dems alongside recruiting more GPS in a campaign under the slogan for a fair deal but with only 15 MPS in the last Parliament can ED Davey turn the liberal Democrats back into the political force it once was and here is the liberal Democrat leader himself sir Ed Davey let's get straight to it what is your pitch to voters in a minute L our country desperately needs change from the the NHS crisis to the cost living crisis to the sewage in our Rivers nothing seems to work properly anymore families across the UK are working hard raising their families looking after loved ones they deserve a fair deal and every vote for the liberal Democrats of this election is a vote for a local Champion who's going to fight for that fair deal so people can see a GP or a dentist when they need one so we value care and proper support carers whether they're care workers or family carers and so mortgages and rents aren't so high that families are terrified of losing their home and young people can't uh get one and crucially a fair deal where we transform British politics so we can get this real change only the liberal Democrats are fighting for that fair deal and you are promising a lot you say you're going to recruit more GPS insulate people's homes you offering free personal care for the elderly investing in Renewables you're putting a billion pounds you say into agriculture culture where's all the money coming from well we're going to publish our Manifesto very shortly it's going to be fully costes as it always well you can give me some examples yeah yeah I'm really happy to do that um today for example we launched our policies for free personal care and for higher minimum wage for care workers of2 pound extra an hour to try to get more people into care into care because that's desperately needed and we've shown where the money will come from we're saying that the tax cuts the conservatives given to the big Banks should be reversed that would raise 4 £ 4.3 billion a year fig though when I speak to the institute for fiscal studies they say that actually in net terms taxes on banks haven't gone up that much some taxes have gone up some have gone down they say that your idea of taxing share by Banks you say that would get you 1.4 billion they say because of the way people will change their behavior it'll get them next to nothing well I I disagree with that um disagree with the ifs well um I'd like to see their workings I can show them ours um we showed that last year if we'd had this share buyback scheme it would have raised 2.3 billion actually and we've allowed for Behavioral change and in fact what we're looking at is what uh the President Joe Biden did in the United States they raised a huge amount of money for uh this uh approach so we can raise money okay um we've got other sources of raising money we've got a proposal for example to make sure that there's a mental health expert in every primary secondary school to deal with the problems of mental health for our children and young people and we've said that the digital service on the social media Giants and Amazon Google that should go up to raise the money so each time nka this is really important no it is important that group like the ifs is not as convinced about the sums and I guess we will continue to chat them as they go along but I want to ask you about policy I know you were passionate about when you were in coalition government you were passionate about raising the salary level at which people start paying tax now that threshold has been frozen and it's basically a massive ax increase for people I assume if you had the power you would immediately reverse that we'd like to um but you're right uh and other people like the ifs are right the money isn't there to do everything we want to begin do that so we when we publish our Manifesto you you'll see that actually raising that is a priority uh when uh the public finances allow our priority you admit they don't allow that now not immediately no so so that is a unfair tax that you wouldn't be able to change well what we showed when we in government we massively raised it we we promised to do that and when resource allow we did massively and what's been so unfair and there a huge difference between other and the conservatives who really aren't fit to govern our country you know they've raised that uh taxes on the lowest income people we cut taxes on lowest income people right now you're not saying that you'd be able to commit to that you're saying in the future you would be able to commit to it well um we want to do that but but but let's be clear Anushka the conservatives have ruined our economy LZ trust's budget has trashed it and so we can't do everything we want to at in the first instance we've got a set of priorities and they are costed let me just ask you one other thing that you talk about you want more safe rots for Asylum Seekers what numbers do you think we should be accepting well with the SIM Seekers you can't be absolutely sure the numbers because it depends on uh what's happening in other parts of the world what we have said is we need to make sure we go after those international criminal gangs who are trafficking human beings and stop it at source and then when working with the UN and other countries take a take our share of refugees have you thought about what a fair share is well we'd have to work with other countries um that's have a rough number I mean we took we gave Refugee status to 38,000 people last year are you saying it should be higher than that well well because the flow of refugees changes from year to year depending on what's happening around the world I think I think everyone knows that but if you look at Asylum immigration and it's a very serious issue we think country has completely failed the system and part of the reason is is because they haven't taken the measures back here which would reduce the demand for let me give you one really important they have issued over 300,000 healthare visas in the last 2 3 years we have said why didn't pay care workers properly by an extra 2 an hour then people would move from add into the spending bucket we've we've already covered I just want to move that's actually you're talking about net legal migration I was talking about people claiming Asylum can I just ask you your viewers are actually wor uh interested you I need to move sorry I want to ask you a few quick fire questions if you don't mind if there is a Parliament do you think you'd be Deputy Prime Minister I'm focused on getting our liberal Democrat policies over so we can get lots of liberal Democrat that's not a know well listen I I'm here and love the I'm enjoy I'm enjoying being on your program so I can get Democrat policies over do you think tuition fees should be scrapped U no what we do think we wow you're not got one word no no no no no what we're trying to do is to make sure we get maintenance grants for students students from poor backgrounds need to be able to go toity the tour is would you welcome Donald Trump to Britain if he wins the presidency well um I don't share any of the values and policies of uh the president Trump H nor do the liberal Democrats however if he's elected by it's got however in it it's definitely not one word yeah well I bet yes you sometimes anishka some of the questions are a bit more complicated than yes and no I think we all know that so you would if he was um if he was President listen America is one of our closest allies and you have to respect whoever they allowed okay most people would seen tonight's head-to-head between K stor and rashy soon now who did you think won oh listen I that people can make up their own mind about that I'm determined to talk about liberal Democrat policies I didn't think you've got a lot of answers there uh take the cost of living for example what they're going to do about it we're clear let's get free score meals to children from the poorest uh back backgrounds Let's help people with energy bills through the warm home discount let's make sure uh children who are living in let's talk about your priorities let's talk about your priorities in a recent poll it says you could get almost 50 MPS in that situation you could be a power broker in the next election which I'm sure brings a smile to your face if so we know you wouldn't do a deal with the conservatives but if labor look to you and say prop up K stor in power what would be your demand what's most important to the lip dams well it's interesting in that poll that you're quoting there because lab would have a majority in in in that poll but listen in this election I'm focused in non liberal Democrat policies and um I said when I became leader of the party that my job is to get rid of as many conservative MPS as possible they have ruined our country and I'm quite angry actually and I think lots of poter are what's really interesting this election I've never seen it before in my 30 years in politics so you would work with k d to get rid of the stories I am focusing on defeating conservative MPS this election I hope to defeat a labor MP in Sheffield ham actually and some s SMP MPS but the truth is the vast majority of chances to elect liberal Democrat MPS and local champions for the era is by defeating conservative press you on this point though the the most likely way in which you would exert influence in a future government is if it's a hung Parliament and if you are able to support the government so I do think it's really important that our voters understand your red lines your priorities well what I'm saying is it vote Liber Democrat you'll get a local champion who go to Westminster and argue for Liberal Democrat policies Let me Give an example where even in this Parliament where we weren't government a liberal Democrat MP Wendy Chamberlain The Fantastic MP for North East 5 changed the law for carers by giving them unpaid uh carers leave um something that the conservative promised but failed to deliver it was a liberal Democrat who did that in this Parliament that's just ending you elect a liberal Democrat you will get a local champion who fight for your area and will go to Westminster to Champion Democrat values well I'm I'm fighting on this election on the liberal Democrat Manifesto I'm looking forward to publishing it we've been giving you a number of our proposals whether it's more GPS whether it's more carers whether it's tackling the sewage crisis these are the priorities for I think for the country when we talk to voters they not different to Labor's priorities in many of those cases question is what do you want voting reform for example well um you'll be really shocked by this one word answer yes liberal democat want to reform our political system that includes electoral reform yes I don't have much time left so I do want to ask you this you have been shooting down water slides in a rubber ring it's not necessarily the best look if you want to be serious in government look I think that politicians I believe that politicians should be serious about voters concerns and show how they're going to address US I've tried to do an our interview but I don't think politicians should always take themselves too seriously uh I think people want to know that politicians are real people with real life experience and I think more rubber rings more jenger you know more paddle boards you know they never tell me the stunts till about a few hours beforehand all right well we look forward to that sir Ed dve Thank you very much for joining me right next up we're going to speak to the S&P leader in Westminster Steven Flynn but first let's take a look at what the Scottish national party have got to offer we are for Scotland we will always put Scotland first Steven Flynn has been the snp's star man in Westminster since December 2022 playing a key role in the party's uk-wide aspirations the S SMP is the party of government in Scotland and until this election ction was called the third biggest Party in the House of Commons with 43 MPS its latest leader John swinny promised to restart conversations about Scottish independence soon after taking the top job but some say the party faces an uphill battle swinny took the helm in May following the collapse of the snp's poers sharing deal with the Scottish greens that plus an ongoing police investigation into the party's finances have cast a Shadow over the S&P in recent months Beyond fighting for Independence the party has aims to increase investment in green energy affordable housing and the NHS the S&P says it will Target Tory held seats in Scotland but with the conservatives labor and the libdems targeting s SMP seats will the party be able to maintain their dominance in Westminster seats north of the Border Steven Flynn S&P Westminster leader is with me welcome why don't you kick us off with that one minute pitch to voters yes well the good news is that this Tory government is coming to an end and thanks to Rishi sunak that dat is coming sooner than many people had predicted so the choice for voters in Scotland is now very simple who do they trust to put Scotland's interests first at Westminster now for the S&P we're very clear about what it is that we believe in we believe in investment in our NHS we believe in action on the cost of living crisis we believe in rejoining the Europeans single Market on ensuring that we create economic growth by delivering Net Zero now within the Palace of Westminster those policies aren't particularly popular and of course they're not shared by the labor party but we're not here to Cozy up to the westmin status quo we're here to deliver for the people of Scotland and to ensure that they have a say over their own future so on the 4th of July I would urge people to vote for what they believe in to vote SNP to put Scotland's interests first and let me ask you about the issue of Independence the clues in the name of the party your former leader Nicholas sturgeon made clear that this was the next big chance for Scottish voters to have their say on that issue she was clear this is a deao referendum on Independence do you still agree with that well well as you know that's that's not the case that's not been the party policy for a considerable period of time what we would seek to do through this election is to win a majority of seats in Scotland and then seek to enter discussions with the UK government following that the big question there of course is for likely K stammer to determine whether he's going to respect the Democratic will of the people of Scotland or not or whether he's going to copy Boris Johnson was TR R soon and I'll just come to that but why has that position changed because the big difference I see from when Nicholas sturgeon said that to when you Dro that is a difference in the polls you were more confident about getting a majority back then and you're less confident now no I think that the reason that that position changed and In fairness it wasn't actually agreed by the party it was Nicholas's position it wasn't the party's position the the reason it changed is that because in order to achieve independence you have to have a referendum you have to have the gold standard which is recognized by our friends and allies in Europe of course who we want to join as an independent European nation that's why the party took a pragmatic decision to say that when we win the election in Scotland which I believe we will we win a majority of seats in Scotland we can therefore have discussions with the UK government to put that into Democratic effect and it's for the UK government and K to outline whether he's going to respect Scotland's democracy or not what if you don't win if you don't get a majority your colleague Tommy Shephard is really clear his words not mine if the S&P lose the election in Scotland the debate on Independence stops and this is the this is the question that the people of Scotland have to address and so that's right the debate on Independence stops if you don't get a majority so and the Democracy does not stop a single election but for the people of Scotland 50% of whom believe in Independence they have to determine whether they want to vote for a party who will put the NHS first action on the cost of living rejoining the European single market and of course seeking to develop Net Zero and who also believe in Scotland having the right to determine its own future or whether they want to vote for a unionist labor party it doesn't want that to happen it wants to stop Scotland's democracy that is quite a FR position to take the polls are not looking good for you like you're basically putting it on the table there I get it because that's going to persuade voters who really want independence to vote you but aren't you taking a huge risk there no no no so what we're saying is that Dem democracy doesn't start and stop with one election that's never been the case if that was the case we wouldn't be having an election here today we're standing on a Manifesto which is going to have a clear commitment to obviously have those discussions with the UK government should we win that election I'm confident that we will be able to but the big question for the unionist parties and for K Stam in particular is whether he's going to follow the tact of Boris Johnson Russy sunak and Liz truss and deny Scotland her democracy isn't one issue here that support for Independence has actually remained similar to the Past 45% but support for the S SMP has fallen people want independence as much as they did they don't necessarily see you as the vehicle to get them there I I think what the people of Scotland want right now is to get rid of the Tores the people of Scotland haven't voted conservatives since 1955 and they want to make sure there was not a conservative government but this election is of course about much more than that because change has to look like something we're clear about what change looks like to us investment in the NHS uh action on the cost living crisis making sure that we rejoin the European single market and of course delivering zero the labor party do not agree with those things we can hold their feet to the fire those let me let me come back on those but I would like to just ask you a few quick fire questions let's see if you're quicker than Davey would there be a hard border between England and an independent Scotland no when Scotland is not playing will you support England in the Euros no will Donald Trump be welcome in Scotland if he wins the election yes um you just watched the head-to-head debate between K St and richy sunet who do you think won I don't think the people Scotland won because I don't think Scotland was mentioned once okay and you've made very very clear that you think the worst thing for Scotland is a conservative government won't Scottish voters think if we don't want a conservative government we need to vote labor so as all the opinion polls would indicate K starmer is going to be the next prime minister which is why at this election the choice for the people of Scotland is very listen in an election campaign we don't necessarily think about opinion polls they need to win 123 extra seats if they can win 25 seats in Scotland it's going to make their path easier you've seen the same polls as I have that put the labor majority well into the three figures if not close to 200 seats so the people of Scotland have a choice to make who do they think is going to best stand up for Scotland's interests in Westminster and it's the SNP who will do that that is our USP is what we do we put Scotland's interest first Grown Scotland's economy delivering for our public services and making sure that we can decide our own future well you might try and reject this because of the polling but if there is a hung Parliament that's a position in which you would have a very strong part would you do a deal with K starma and if so what would you demand I think it's pretty obvious what Scottish nationalist would demand so they they labor party wouldn't give you that is there something else that you would agree to do a deal over so so what I've outlined there is is quite clear now I have in the recent days proposed a bill to prevent any privatization of the NHS the labor party were outraged at the very concept of they were to back that that would be most welcome we'd also want to see a rejection of the 18 billion pound worth of public sector cuts that are coming down the line so that Scotland's Public Services can be funded properly we want to see uh rejoining of the European single Market we want those discussions to happen it's good for business we want to see increased migration your deficit would require cutting if you were going to do that we want to see that would be austerity wouldn't it we want increased migration into Scotland because that's one of the ways you grow the econom cont on the single Market I'm I'm afraid that you ask me what I would demand I'm telling you what I would demand from aioa government which is Progressive politics that align with the values of the people of Scotland and of course within that we would want the powers to hold a referendum because it's wrong that a Westminster Parliament gets to determine our future not the I mean that is a list of policies that you wouldn't get in that situation I think and one of them you talked about was rejoining a single the single Market you know the European Union has very strict rules Scotland's deficit is higher than the rules that would allow you to rejoin the EU for example would you have to bring in pretty dire cuts to get to well of course you're predicting the future that Scotland's going to be independent and I very much hope that's the case and there's very many Eastern European nations which have joined the European Union whil having a debt ratio uh and a deficit ratio sorry Which is higher than that which is currently in place as long as they have a plan in place to bring it down and we would most certainly have a plan in place to bring it down but we are the most pro pro European party in Parliament and we will stand through to our values you have talked about other issues and the importance of other issues than Independence than the EU a recent Yuga poll suggested around six out of 10 people people in Scotland have little or no confidence that you'll make the right decisions on the economy Public Services police climate change what has led to this catastrophic loss in trust and what can you do to regain that trust well I think we are in the process of regaining that trust as with John swiny obviously as a Scottish national party's leader with Kate Forbes at his side and with as many other talented ministers and just in recent days we've seen H stats which have shown that when it comes to business confidence Scotland is the highest right across these aisles and that's on joh s's watch and that's the that's the tone which is going to follow in Scotland for very many months to come because John swiny is a serious politi there has been a catastrophic loss and Trust I believe that the SNP has had significant challenges and I accept those challenges and nobody would deny that we're in the process of rebuilding that trust with the Scottish people and that starts with this general election where we can put their values fost at West just one thing that really has damaged trust is the fact that you're going to have to hand back 450 million pound of EU money and that you failed to spend on key economic and anti-poverty projects I mean would you apologize to voters for that so so as you know the story uh which that refers to um is money which of course runs until 2025 and what someone has done purposely done is take a snapshot of a moment in time and as John swiny outlined just other day he anticipates that that money will be spent these are projects which were put on hold as I understand it due to the covid pandemic much higher percentage in Scotland than in Wales England or Northern Ireland but as the first Minister outlined he anticipates that all of that money will be spent by 2025 now I'm not entirely sure why we're in the business in serious politics of saying that a budget which hasn't been fully spent in 2024 which of course runs until 2025 is news I don't think that does us any favors whatsoever in a serious grown-up discussion particularly when families are living with the cost of living crisis at this moment in time and government expenditure is incredibly important well I think that people feel upset about and the how how and if that money will be spent yeah but the explanation which has been provided by the Scottish government is very clear that the this budget runs until 2025 what's happened is someone has purposely taken a snapshot of 2024 and obviously when we get to 2025 the first Minister has been very clear that he expects that money to be out the door and just finally let me ask you about that football decision you w you didn't you didn't hesitate there why why do you really not want to support England in other games I'm a member of The Tartan Army it's my hobby to go and watch Scotland play uh we're Rivals I want to see Scotland do as well as we can uh in the Euros uh and apparently England and Scotland wouldn't even meet till the final well England are not going to make it that far um so we we'll just have to go there ourselves I look forward to that Scottish final without England Steven Flynn thank you so much coming up we'll speak to Richard Ty the new chair of Reform UK and green party co-leader Adrien Ramsey can they persuade you to lend them your vote all that after this short break e e e e welcome back to the ITV election interviews well we've already heard from the S&P and the lib Dems the green party is coming up but now it's time for Richard TI the new chair of Reform UK let's take a quick look at their campaign promises the right thing for the UK to go for growth to go for higher wages is actually to freeze immigration Richard TI is chair of Reform UK the rebranded brexit party hoping to cause a major political upset this election and in the most dramatic moment of the campaign so far Nigel farage took the Reigns of the party from TI vowing to lead a political revolt and make reform the official opposition in the UK they say a vote for them is a common sense choice and they have four main aims lower taxes what they call Net Zero migration cheaper energy and no waiting lists for the NHS reform gained its first MP in March after Lee Anderson the former Tory Deputy chairman defected Richard Ty says he wants to smash and destroy the Tories on July the 4th and with the party set to field a candidate in every seat across England Wales and Scotland will it hurt the conservative vote and joining me now the man himself Richard Ty chair of Reform UK welcome Richard kick off with policy give me your pitch in a minute this great country of ours it's being so badly run at the moment everyone knows that we're all feeling worse off it's harder to see a GP or get an operation and our immigration system legal and illegal is completely and utterly out of control it requires bold solutions to these serious problems and it's only reform UK that has got these bold plans imagine not paying any income tax below £20,000 imagine zero waiting lists within 2 years and keeping them there we've got plans to achieve this and do this and imagine freezing immigration so the country can catch up that things can work properly and imagine stopping the boats stopping the the deaths we've got those bold plans but it requires real successful people Achievers doers to fix the crisis the problems this country have got if you're not happy with the status quo if you want change you've got to vote for change you got to vote reform UK on July the 4th and I'll come to those policies but let me just start with you yesterday you were leader of Reform UK and you were doing well the party was 12% in the polls above the lib dams above the greens who told you you were out as leader I've been talking with Nigel about our plans for months and we've been know we're do doing well but we want to put turbo boosters rocket boosters onto our campaign and that's what we've done I'm delighted that Nigel's agreed both to stand to lead the party and off we go we're a successful team in 2019 we won a national election with M's chair with lead I'm delighted that Nigel's getting stuck in Fant not at all look we had a thousand people in a constituency where Nigel's standing today in Clon at offer his campaign launch we're off AB you haven't then Nigel's the most experienced most well-known politician in the country together we're making a rapid change we're going up in the polls something is happening out there it's very exciting voters have got a genuine different choice to socialism of the main two parties and who calls the shots I mean do you march to Nigel for's tune we both discuss things we debate things we get to the right answer it's a job share no it's a chairman share and a leader that's how you work who's the bigger fig we focus on action and solutions not titles and nonsense like that all the media obsessed about titles look we focus on actually how do you solve things how do you make things happen cuz that's who we are business people who fix things Okay so reform now led by a job share um you want by Nigel farage chaired by Richard TI you want Net Zero immigration work in the office we don't work from home you want Net Zero immigration we have massive vacancies in the NHS and in the care sector what would you do about them we want to freeze lawful immigration with the exception of healthcare but let's remember we've got 5.2 million people one in8 of the working age population on out to work benefits British citizens we need to get those people as many as POS possible back into work we've got to help businesses in motivate businesses those people into the NHS and into the care sector we've got to skill up and train up our own people time of course it does these are Urgent sectors that need jobs now why but in the 1980s and 1990s right we were training up our own people our own young people straight out of school into Wards into universities why do we freeze the uh the training caps on training Hospital uh training doctors and nurs is this is madness we've got to focus on our own people Skilling people up motivating training developing young people that still leaves a gap in the meantime and that's why we have an exception for healthare and social care but we have to train our own people that's the right thing for a government to do for British citizens I mean you're talking about stuff that cost money and yet you're talking about tens of billions of pounds which is why we've got c yeah which is why we've got a costing let me just look at some of your costings so you say you'll make 91 billion by cutting government waste no no I'm sorry if you're going to do your research get it right okay go on you tell me we're going to scrap Net Zero which will make no difference to global climate change that will save at least 30 billion P come toet Z tell me about government waste how much are you going to make the first thing we're got to do is 91 billion on your website the second thing you ought to do after scrapping Net Zero you can save about 35 billion a year by the bank of England not voluntarily paying taxpayers cash interest on the money it printed in Rich ing the city institutions so between those two that's £65 billion and then everybody knows there's government waste anyway let me tell you what you got to do you got to cut out the back office waste and invest it in Frontline growth and public services that's how you get the economy gr how much are you going to shrink the Civil Service it's how much Mone you make it's about cutting out the waste cutting out the ridiculous diversity equality and inclusion roles all of this waste that everybody knows is there but no one's got the courage and the guts to tell it as it is the entire civil service that entire Civil Service salary is5 billion a year do you realize there are you're going to sack everyone do you realize there are 600,000 more people work in the public sector since 2019 and yet the quality hang on the quality of Public Services has gone down which means productivity and performance has collapsed it's a disaster unless we change things unless we turn things around we are going bust you are still talking about not enough cuts to match the massive tax cuts that you're talking about and you mentioned net Zer let me ask you about Net Zero because in order for Net Zero to save money there has in the way you're saying it's going to you have to assume that climate change isn't going to cost anything climate change is real but it's much cheaper to adapt to it than to try and think that you can spend tens and tens of billions of pounds totaling trillions of pounds hang on adaptation costs are huge hang on they're far less than thinking you can stop the power of the sun you can stop the power of volcanoes and you can stop sea l sea L rise that's ridiculous do you believe in man-made climate change look climate man-made climate change if you listened to me a few minutes ago I said that climate change is real but it's much cheaper to adapt to it than foolishly think you can stop the power of the Sun Net Zero is the wrong thing at the wrong price in the wrong time frame do you know what it's doing it's killing our jobs it's killing our Industries like the steel industry the automotive industry it's killing our economy and it's killing old people who can't afford their heating bills every every single person if every single kind of organization that's locked into the cost of Net Zero says there is a massive cost if we don't act no one else agrees with 30 billion cost um do you know how much the National Grid thinks that Net Zero is going to cost is it two trillion or is it three trillion I'll tell you it's three trillion pound which is way more than the sort of sums I'm talking about the reason that no one agrees with me from this from The Establishment is because they don't want to talk about it they don't want to admit it we're the're the only country that is obsessed with Net Zero and it's killing our jobs as we send our jobs and our money over just on this before you go on you say you believe in man-made climate change on your own website it basically says this isn't man-made that it's been the globe has been warming and cooling over many years which it has for millions of years you don't believe that man-made is climate change is warming the planet that's that's CO2 emissions is somewhere between about 3% and maybe 10% of all CO2 emissions because lots of people don't realize there's lots of natural CO2 emissions look this is a massive scientific debate there's different sides of it but let me make this okay let's talk about the let's talk about the debate in 2021 a study came out that said 99% of thousands and thousands of studies on climate change human activity is causing climate change as I just said to you man-made CO2 emissions is less than 10% of all CO2 emissions why do you think you know better than the world scientists on this issue what about the thousands of scientists who actually agree with me but of course the establishment doesn't want to talk about the truth is I'll come back to my Original Point climate change is real but it's cheaper to adapt to it you don't basically man-made is driving it man-made CO2 emissions is a thing let's reduce them sensibly affordably let's not kill our jobs kill our economy and kill our old people that's a disaster no one else is doing it we shouldn't do let me do a quick fire on you if you were to put money on it how many seats do you think reform UK are going to win we will win seats and I've already I'm I'm convinced we will win seat how many well I'm not going to say how many what I I'm going to say is we're going to get millions and millions of votes and that's a very good thing would you be okay with Nigel farage if elected going to the US to help Donald Trump get elected yes um did you watch the head to head I watched bits of it well I remained awake I me it was pretty dull wasn't it two forms of socialism no one answered any questions neither of them had neither of them because neither of them had a plan for growth we've got the longest recession per person since records began 70 years ago neither of them talked about growth neither of them talked about the impact of mass immigration making people poorer and reducing the quality of our life on housing on health and one of them K starma you talk a lot about in your literature you talk about starmageddon yeah you basically think he is the most dangerous thing that can happen in Britain so why are you trying to help him get elected they're both as bad as each other both socialism high taxes big state Mass immigration we're all going to get poor you accept is going to help more millions of votes we get the more likely we become the opposition to what is inevitable labor government and then we're the opposition as we approach 2829 and that's the let me ask you something your leader recently said NAA farage said many young Muslims don't share British values do you know many young Muslims do you agree with Nigel far I know many Muslims but the reality is the Henry Jackson survey with J Partners showed that in 18 to 24 years over 20% believe in G had almost 50% didn't think that people that Jewish people what do Muslim friends you're talking about almost 50% didn't think that uh Jewish people were raped and murdered on October the 7th and I just don't think those represent British values if you believe in Jihad if you want Sharia law in the United Kingdom that's not who we are people prot lots of people who were protesting watching scen unfolding in Gaza and find heartbreaking do you what you're seeing in Gaza heartbreaking it's heartbreaking any war zone is heartbreaking of course and we the more we can do to bring Wars to an end with a negotiated settlement the better the faster you have the power what would you be saying to Benjamin Netanyahu about this right now if I had the power I'd be saying that to resolve the whole Gaza situation Hamas a brutal murderous terror group must not be involved in governing hammer and I don't think the International Community is discussing you say to Israel about the situation in Gaza isra them to Israel is losing the propaganda War Israel is look the reality is of course Israel has the right to defend itself but it's got to make very careful judgments and at the moment when it makes mistakes which it admits it's made then it's not you know it has to defend itself smartly and cleverly but we have to get rid of Hamas Richard Ty thank you very much next up we have the green party and their co-leader Adrien Ramsey let's find out a little bit more about the party and its promises so the green party is proposing practical policies that will help our economy and help the environment why have one party leader when you can have two well the greens co-leaders Carla Dena and Adrien Ramsey would agree elected in 2021 the pair have promised to bring a greater degree of professionalism to the party's organization and campaigning for the very first time the green party is cling to field a candidate at every count in England and Wales but their focus is very much on four seats where they think they have the best chance they say therefore a fairer and Greener country and predictably have a raft of environmental pledges these include better insulated homes and cleaner Rivers but in economic policy they also want a pay ratio that makes sure the highest paid individuals in an organization cannot earn more than 10 times the lowest with the biggest part parties accused of Environmental Policy u-turns could the greens capitalize and finally make gains at Westminster andrean Adrien Ramsey co-leader of the green party is here Adrien welcome let's start with your one minute pitch this election is really quite boring so far isn't it and yet it really matters because it's our chance as a country to say what sort of future we want and people I speak to on the doorstep every day in East Anglia really want to change from this conservative government which has let us down for so long and yet the changes that labor are offering are just making small tweaks they're really timid changes that are not going to tackle the big issues of our time that our NHS is creaking that people can't get access to affordable housing that our rivers are polluted that we're all suffering from a cost of living crisis we need real hope and real change if we're going to respond to the challenges that our country faces and that's why we need a group of green MPS in the next Parliament to push the next government to be bolder both on restoring our public services and on protecting our environment and the environment has been far too left out of this debate so I'm asking people to vote green on the 4th of July that's your time up I mean you are the green party the environment is number one issue Friends of the earth say they are skeptical about your a to elate all emissions in 10 years shouldn't you just be realistic about what is achievable friends the Earth recently did an independent assessment of all the Pary policies on the environment and the green they had the green party clearly first about being able to eliminate emissions within 10 years well we need to set a time scale for net zero emissions that's both ambitious but is also achievable and if you look at studies for example such as the one by the University of Oxford at the end of last year it showed that we could produce renewable energy in this country that exceeds our demands for energy if we really put that investment in and CLA in in the audience tonight in the debate said that both the main parties the conservatives and labor have broken promises on climate and she was absolutely right and and in in the answers they gave what they admitted to say omitted to say is that they're not willing to put the investment in that's needed if we're going to seize the uge opportunity we have Sol our energy crisis investment even a group like Friends of the earth thinks 10 years is probably too ambitious and you do have to take people with you I mean you mentioned the cost of living crisis in your opening pitch think about heat pumps for example yes there are grants but it's expensive for people to swap out heat pumps you have to take people with you absolutely we have to take people with us and the solutions to The Climate crisis are also solutions to the cost of living crisis the energy bills are one of the main reasons why people's bills are skyrocketing and if we look at some of the reasons why that's the case we have the leakiest homes in Europe here in the UK people's um heating is going out of their doors out of their Windows if we were to have a nationwide program to insulate people's homes it keeps bills down keeps homes warm just as if we invest in renewable energy that helps tackle the energy crisis so this is very much about cost of living as well as the environment I'm going to come to your costings and all of this but isn't there also question of influence here like you mentioned both the conservatives and labor have been accused of watering down environmental pledges yes but you can't stop that happening I mean if I think about the greens in Scotland or the greens in German Germany they've had massive influence in Government you're gunning for four seats where's your ambition our ambition is that we desperately need to P push forward on The Bold action that's needed both on addressing the climate and nature crisis the defining issues of our time and on look we all the polls suggest we're on track for a labor government the question is do we want K starma to have such a big majority that he can continue to make u-turns all the time on climate or on funding for public services if there's a group of green MPS in Parliament and we're standing a record number of candidates in this election going in better shape than ever really tting we've got four our top four Target seats if we win those we'll be in able to push this new government in the right direction if they don't have that voice in Parliament they'll be able to just continue to pretend that these little tweaks that labor proposing is actually going to address these big issues of our time do you really think that the labor proposals that we've heard tonight are going to enable us to tackle the climate crisis to address the fact I think that you're not going to be able to influence it because you're gunning for four seats whilst the greens are a huge force in other countries and in this country the green party has increased the number of elected Greens five-fold in the Last 5 Years winning seats from labor and from the conservatives in all corners of the country people are desperate for change they're desperate for authentic voices in politics and we're the only party that's being honest in this election and saying that if we're going to fund that transition to a green economy in a fair way and restoring our NHS then we are going to need to ask the very richest in society the multi-millionaires the billionaires to pay modestly more in tax to bring about that transition I'm going to talk to about that but let's just do this quick fire section I mean you talk quite a lot in your policies about liberalizing access to illegal drugs have you ever taken drugs I I've never taken illegal drugs no would you press the nuclear button no what is the least green thing you do well we all try to be as green as we can I do have a car I I use it when I when I need to a hybrid car because when I got it I quite bad ACC lived in lived in a home that didn't have the charging infrastructure we've got to improve the charging infrastructure who do you think won tonight's head-to-head well no one won it because there were no bold ideas there were there was no honesty about how we're going to fund the changes that people actually need and people are really you know democracy was the loser because there was no real promise of a brighter future let me ask you about Gaza we can't go into specifics about constituencies here but you have been accused of circulating letters that look like they're from concerned neighbors saying oh I really like what the green party do but actually they're you're election leaflets well any leaflets that we put out say very clearly that they're printed and published by the green party we have to do uh and you know most of the leaflets we put out say very clearly vote green at this election because that's what we want people tiny writing it looked like it was from a neighbor I mean the Jewish Chronicles said it was you know stirring up division that's the opposite of what we're seeking to do we have to recognize that Jewish communities and Muslim communities in this country and around the world are feeling very vulnerable a time of a horrendous International conflict where tens of thousands of people have lost their lives where we still have hostages that have not been released and we've just got to talk about these issues in a really sensitive way that recognizes the trauma that people are going through S if you know Jewish if the Jewish Chronicle felt that that was stirring up division it it absolutely was not doing so and the green party is really clear that we want to be about building uh communities building cross community understanding in this country and Beyond let's talk about costings you've got quite a lot of big policies um and I wondered if you thought about how much they cost I mean how much do you think it cost to provide free School meals to all children primary and secondary children in England well we will have a fully costed manif know how much that would cost I I don't have that figure off the top of my head but I will stud I ask them two and a half billion pounds um our cost of Manifesto coming out on the 12th of June it will set out clearly the costings of everything we're proposing to do and how we would pay for it and I can tell you exactly where we would raise that money from because that's the the difficult question we talk about the raising the money in a minute but you say everyone should get access to an NHS dentist absolutely have you been to a dentist lately I mean that is an entire overhaul of the system how much would that cost we're proposing three billion a year extra for Dentistry to enable everyone to get access to an NHS dentist and where where I am in East Anglia we have a dental desert just as so much of our our country does people are resorting to pulling out their own teeth or to going without treatment or for driving on hours on end to get lot of money you talk about we're say that we're willing to put the money you speak to experts and they say trying to tax the top 1% on their own is really difficult people change their behavior they are pretty good at avoiding tax you're not going to raise enough from that we have been speaking to experts many experts who've proposed a wide range of different ways in which you can ask the very richest in society people with wealth of 10 million or more to pay modestly more we're talking about 1% on assets over 10 million but if you did that you could raise tens of billions by the end of this next Parliament and countries that have countries that have brought in um a wealth tax like um for example Switzerland and Spain have done so very effectively and it makes a big difference if we're going to put in this investment that we need we're the only party that's being honest in this election we can how ra these These are difficult taxes to raise the amounts that you're talking about I mean there's things you talk about you say You're going to scrap all road building schemes I mean how you going to get around in your car well we there's lots of roads already actually and a lot of the roads we have already are in a terrible State a lot of people who really don't like potholes so indeed and and that often doesn't get the funding okay sool road maintenance of course needs money but you can spend huge amounts of money on New Roads which if we put that money into public transport measures which benefit people who haven't got cars as well as those who have and we bring the price I so many people don't have access to a local or aent train service and we need to invest that we need to bring train prices down to be affordable for people to be able to use just a couple more do you think the UK accepts enough refugees I think that the UK has a long tradition of welcoming people who are fleeing torture or persecution or poverty and that's a tradition we're proud of and it needs to be done in an international way where you think we accept enough refugees well I don't think this is about putting an arbitrary number on the issue I think it's about being welcoming and looking at the reasons why so many people are fleeing their homes poverty around the world you don't a changing climate I I want to be in a situation where we tackle the root causes of why so many people are fleeing their homes whether that's a changing climate whether that's War whether that's poverty and so the green party has clear commitments in the manifesto that's coming out to not just restore the global Aid budget to 0.7% but to increase it further to put more money into climate finance that helps the poorest countries in the world to both reduce their emissions but adapt to the changes that are happening as well and as the one of the richest countries in the world going to put a number on it but essentially you think that we should increase the numbers overall I think that we need to play our role alongside other Richard countries around the world in in being a a place that people can go to and tackle the root causes of why people are seeking Asylum thank you very much for time and there we have it you've heard what the parties have to offer it is now over to you to decide who gets your vote for reaction to an analysis of what you've heard from all the party leaders on ITV tonight the news is next and for viewers in Wales after the news a chance to hear a full interview with reap your worth leader of ped cumy that's at 10 minutes to midnight on the 13th of June there'll be another election debate here on ITV seven of the political parties have been invited head online to get more on that plus all the very latest from the election campaign so far on our streaming site ITX from me though have a very good night for