Job Interview Secrets: Stand Out from the Competition- Cavelle Joseph St Omer

[Music] thank you hello and welcome back to getting to the top the podcast where I interviewed transformational leaders about their leadership journey and I'm so glad that you've decided to join us today today I have with me Carvel Joseph Saint Omar president of HR Matt HR Management Association of Trinidad and Tobago which is a globally recognized human resource executive with over 20 years of experience working to effectively balance big picture thinking and strategic planning with Hands-On execution her passion is providing HR Solutions for her colleagues and clients and helping them build their HR infrastructure through technology compliance and people she's a member of the board of directors of the national training agency where she serves as chairperson of the finance investment and procurement committee she's presently the public relations officer of the Arthur lockjack Graduate School of Business alumni board and a director of the epoch Foundation she's also a past member of the Board of Governors of nihurst in 2016 she was recognized as one of the top hundred Global HR professionals by the World hrd Congress and her accolades go on and on she is one of the most vibrant and Innovative not just HR professionals but one of the most vibrant and Innovative Professionals in the region and I'm so delighted that she's decided to spend some time with us today thank you cavelle well thank you Raquel for the invitation I was deeply honored when you actually reached out to me because I didn't exactly consider myself like some of the women that you've previously interviewed and um so I must say I appreciate the invitation and I felt honored to be honest so thank you for having me wonderful and you're in great company and you are well among your peers so I really wanted to you know and and I I was talking to Cabela about all of the work that she does with the with the HR management association and how you know it's one of the more active associations that we have people are engaged people are excited they turn up to events and it is all because and I know that she has a phenomenal team and she will say that they do a lot of the work but it is all because of the absolute Vigor that kavel has she ensures that these things happen it is and you you talk to anyone they will tell you the association is as active as it is because cabel ensures that it is so were you always like this or where did you start out how did you decide that you wanted to be an HR professional and so that's three questions and one so we'll get started with how did you get started and were you always this way well I think I always had that energy and passion um for the things that I love and you know when you love what you do it absolutely becomes enjoyable you want to see whatever involved in um to be you know you wanted to be successful and you definitely have that energy and figure as you've described towards um any activity associated with it because you love it so for me my journey in EHR is accidental I always say that because it wasn't necessarily my intention to be an HR practitioner but in fact my first degree is economics and law and I attended um university of the West Indies civil campus and it was my original intention to pursue a career in law and to eventually be an attorney at law I was very argumentative as a child um love to the beat all right and much of a chatterbox as you will see so in my report cardio Tinkerbell talks too much Cabela distracts the class you know those visual comments that we got back in those days so so back then I mean I attended cable and you know that the intention was real in terms of this the pursuit of Law and I returned home every holiday and would work in my family's business my father is a contractor and I mean I I must say I must thank him for the foundation and it work ethic that I currently have and um that that passion to get up early and to pursue and honest they would because that is the principles that he he he founded his business on and he passed he imparted onto us right so in those days I I worked for him and um I recognized that the HR function was missing and you know with most family businesses the owners everything the marketing person the finance person um in this case as a contractor he's out there any Workshop as well too and he recognize the people issues weren't being addressed and I just accidentally started to work on some of these things because I was doing law I visit at the employment contracts because of my personality and my love for engaging with people in general I mean I hosted family days for the first time and corporate activities that the employees did appreciate and I realized hey you know this is something that I actually like and I enjoy doing and I like interacting with people develop policies and procedures a lonely way and I recognize why not pursue this in a formal way and pursue it as a career and I mean that's how I entered into HR so after I completed my first degree I attended the afterlife Global School of Business where I pursued my Master's and specialize in human resource management thereafter I did my diploma in industrial relations I did a bit of mediation because that also is important and my field of studies and in my profession and there you go I cemented myself with having the necessary background skills and then I I established the HR department in my family's business and eventually moved on to the public sector and private sector of the organization and where I practice now in the leading role of a major State entity in the divisional in the capacity of divisional manager of human resources and along the way I added to my credentials so I'm internationally certified as well I often say to people whatever your career is no matter what it is make sure you are the subject matter expert at what you do continuous learning and investing in yourself in learning what's happening because every profession is evolving and changing and HR is a science contrary to what beliefs there may be about it where people may say it's so soft in fact today at our human event someone was saying they still don't understand the rule of HR in an organization so there's still people out there who see it as something soft and tangible and not really beneficial to their organizations but I'm here to say otherwise there is science behind it it's a social science and as any other field that is involving and as a consequence of that I continue to pursue academics and learn and grew and that's why I'm so involved even with her map because it allows me to stay current and to stay on top of my game because I couldn't lead the function and be a part of my executive team and be involved involved in strategic planning as I am and not be in a position where I'm informed about what's happening in my sector what can we expect as we enter into an and navigate the fourth Industrial Revolution for example what can we expect about the future of work I can have those conversations with leaders if I myself wasn't grounded in these series and practices and everything about My Chosen profession so yes that's that's how I accidentally got into HR Raquel well it sounds like it was a natural it was where you were meant to be so but what had attracted you to law I mean apart from the fact that you talked a lot as a child and you were argument what did you think that you would do what would what did you feel like was your purpose with with law well honestly I think I'm a natural Advocate and that is what attracted me the most advocacy part of it because you have to advocate for someone right whether it's to prove there in a sense or guilt or whichever side of depending on maybe have found myself um the element of research of getting to the back end or to the end of you know just trying to understand the story and building a defense and how you build that defense those are the things that I found attractive about a profession and um even because of the influence of the television programs I looked at as a child Law and Order I mean I don't know why I was so obsessed with so many law programs even Lincoln Lawyer today the second season is coming out pretty soon so I often found myself gravitating towards even television programs that were grounded in law in some form of fashion and as a consequence of that I felt it was my true you know something that because I gravitated towards it so much that I felt maybe that is the career that was a career for me but the interesting thing is is that there's a lot of law in HR right so what has happened as a consequence of my background with economics and understanding figures numbers and being comfortable with it then with my legal background and understanding the law it makes me a very Dynamic practitioner and my approach to my field now is very different that may be very different to other practitioners because of my unique background and experience so I naturally have an affinity to researching and to understanding and interpreting interpreting um legislation and HR is grounded in legislation especially in our jurisdiction in terms of the industrial relations like there's several pieces of legislation at government what I do and as a result of my background it has all got well for me and meet me a little bit unique and more dynamic as a practice as well so it's kind of worked out well in the end as you said earlier so then you know one of the things that I noticed was just how many people were working uh the the HR function that that you hosted today that was so exquisitely executed and what is it like leading an organization where you're working with volunteers who are volunteering their time how do you lead how how do you lead volunteers separate from leading employees well they're such a big difference and volunteerism is a little bit more challenging because um there isn't legal terms of Engagement per se and there isn't reward and recognition in the end it makes it very difficult to work in a volunteer capacity or to lead an organization that is strictly based on volunteerism and commanding the time and energy and attention of volunteers it's not the same as you would do when you have a contract of employment and I say you know what I am Contracting you for these eight hours or how many hours this is your terms and conditions this is how you will be rewarded for good work and good performance right and by your performance is being assessed and it will have volunteerism there is assessment because you you have to present before an AGM right and your members shred it a bit sometimes if they're not satisfied with how they see the association going all the financial performance of the association but with volunteerism you find that sometimes even on the board um you see people enter into Organization for very new motives you know what motivates them for even joining and serving might differ and sometimes it may it may be so different from the intent and purpose of why the organization was created and you always have to be guarded against things like that in terms of why people are there in the first place we've seen time and again where people have misused organizations um for ulterior purposes that may be Financial or non-financial in nature so even navigating that I'm understanding it and trying to make sure that you don't find yourself being a part of an organization on entity like that is critical so for me I often like to see who is a part of it I want to make sure they're structure so there must be Pilots I want to ensure that there's an AGM so there are other organizations that has a approach many person I said noted because they've never hosted an AGM I've never seen Financial reports these are things govern and things that really help um keep you in check keep you honest stay members as well too as to why we and why we do what we do so those are some of the challenges because his structures are not necessarily employees it's under resource most of the time as well too so you find yourself having to come to people like yourself and say you know what can you assist me with this this is what I could do for you in the end if you able to support this particular initiative so it's under resource governance issues lack of structure and of course getting people to perform and to be motivated in a system where the rewards and recognition may not necessarily be there or non-existent in some instances so that's the major distinction um we could we could separate with an employee go through a process of course natural Justice and where we try to ensure that is Progressive discipline but you can definitely separate yourself with an endurance a bit more challenging and it happens at an AGM unless someone choose to resign as a case maybe so there's some unique differences but um all well enjoyable now if you've mastered working in a volunteer organization um trust me you could figure it out very easily in a corporate will because it is really a lot more challenging um to get things done and um when you're not profit driven as well too you know but once you can master that I you can you can work anywhere my humble opinion that is of course so how how do you keep the team the the her math team that you manage how do you keep them motivated how do you keep them focused how do you keep them delivering against the objective yeah solid team um of course not everyone functions at the same level at any given time um the team is not always running like a like a marathon or a Sprint Sometimes some running at the marathon piece and some sprinting right so you're finding that happening within the team um what we try to do um Raquel and anyone who knows me is to recognize and celebrate achievements along the way find ways for people to benefit from what they do as well too so you want to ensure that there's some although Your Capacity or your ability to reward may be limited but you find a way where there's some material benefit to them through the association whether you're not recognized as a writer as in the case of perimet was a subject matter expert where you're recognized as one of the top people in our field in our industry whether you get to promote your goods or services you might be a consultant and the association provides you with the platform for you to promote yourself and in a way why we volunteer so you find ways to reward them within the system and the limitations that you have you find ways to celebrate the wins so you spoke about the event today and I mean after I had a chance to return to work had a couple meetings I want to stop I WhatsApp the team and I and I thank them for their efforts and you know I provided some feedback to them um expression of gratitude is important to me and we do make time for Fellowship from time to time we did have the pandemic that impacted us significantly in terms of our ability to gather but now that things are open I did say to them next month in July we'll be definitely meeting up in person and have a celebration along the way as well so you find different ways within the system legitimately to connect the individual goals and objectives to the organization goals and objectives and in minutes you can find a balance between the booths where through this organization and my work and efforts towards the development and advancement of this organization I can also advance myself personally and professionally once you could find the right balance between that um that is what that is what helps the team to stay motivated and that is exactly what is happening at humad and I'm seeing it now where um even a member of our board right now will be speaking at disrupt HR which is coming up in a couple weeks and this is our first real big speaking event and it's all it's almost like the tedx platform where that approach to to delivery of a speech or not speech but that delivery of a presentation um it's similar to that so it's also training ground for that kind of forum so we are providing Avenues where we support our board members in different ways so that they can advance themselves although they're doing this work and they're doing it for free there's some material benefits on the other end that they will be rewarded in another space not necessarily by human but somewhere else so it's really a mixture of those things yeah I love that so it sounds like for you volunteerism apart from the fact that you are a masterful volunteer that you would recommend volunteerism for others who are looking to grow in their career looking to grow in their skill set looking to develop new relationships looking to network that volunteerism is a great way to do that certainly and um I have responsibility in my career for Recruitment and selection and Michael I could tell you when we look at hundreds of resumes because the labor market presently is what it is as it relates to demand um far less than the supply the supply exceeds at this point in time so if I had to look at 100 or 150 applications so one position and I had to shortlist you someone who actively participates in organization who was involved in campus activities they would certainly be shortlisted ahead of someone who doesn't have that kind of background volunteerism I will always recommend a young professional for many reasons you develop skills that you don't necessarily get to develop in your traditional career or in workspace so for me when I first started off very young I just graduated of the University of the West Indies and my one of my early mentors in life Miss Carol she asked me to volunteer at South 8th support father Harvey was the chairperson of that board and I was his secretary board no I I shared with you that I did law initially so my passion is um is in law and economics and I was able to use that background to assist with developing by laws during the minutes of the board meeting but filing annual returns for that organization now in my job I did not have that responsibility so that that that skill or my knowledge and competence in that area wasn't utilized in my career and my job but I utilize it at the ngu right so you find different aspects of your personality it's able to come out and shine in a volunteer way in in in in volunteerism um and it may not be utilizing it in your career on your chosen feel or in a place of employment so for me that's one great thing in terms of developing competencies and skills that is definitely marketable going forward as well too the other thing is in networking now I've met some fantastic people along the way up shared with you father happy was the first chairman that I've had and he had with me he remained someone special to me up to today right for some reason Raquel I say jokingly that I'm always surrounded by somebody who's always willing to pray for me I don't know it just happens that way to be honest I don't know what it is about me but if it's not a priest as a Canon as a pastor is somebody that is around me that wants to pray for me or pray with me or teach me how to pray right so I had that very alien life and I learned so much from him he was one of my earlier mentors and I moved on to turtle with a trust where I met the president of BP because I I mean BHP and people major funders of that organization and they were able to see skills in me and these are people who would recommend you for things and call your name in spaces that you're not even you're not even there in a conversation is happening and your name is being called and inundi wiser so it allows you to network and for people to see your skills and sometimes you don't even have to be interviewed for a job it's a recommendation and based on what they know about you it helps yeah it really does help you even with learning and navigating the will of work through my interactions and I met you through volunteerism for example I mean how could I have met Raquel Moses outside of this organization that we volunteer in you know um so you meet interesting people along the way and they actually help you they may volunteer or be part of a partner like we did today so I mean I will highly always recommend it for multiple reasons just a few that I've shared with you this evening yeah yeah you know it's funny um today on the panel they were talking about the fact that you know great ideas can come from any way it can come from the receptionist they can come from anyone in any part of the organization and I've always felt like the best ideas that I've had or the best ideas that I've been exposed to have been when one one industry cross-pollinates another industry so I've worked across a number of different Industries and you'll think oh well well everybody does things this way in one industry and then you go to another industry and you realize it's completely different and there are things that you would have learned in one industry that you can apply to another industry that can completely innovate what's happening there and in that way you know through volunteerism you have the ability to get exposure to different things to to figure out what you like to understand you know be exposures of the things that you wouldn't otherwise be exposed to if you're in a single job and I also love the idea that you can interact with people at all levels through this kind of um giving of your time and your on yourself that you know you're not having to line up and apply and you know apply for jobs in the same way as other people because people are seeing you working doing the work delivering results through volunteerism that then your name is being called in spaces that it wouldn't otherwise be called in and exactly I I wholeheartedly agree with everything that you've said there and um and much more and that's why for me I tell young people all the time say yes don't look at it as work look at it as an opportunity for you to develop competencies and skills that you may not have had the exposure um or the opportunity to so do right through this organization you find yourself I mean I've learned to be a good bad guy I see and I see that I'm good at fundraising because of volunteerism most of these organizations are challenged with finding funds to manage themselves I mean with response to so many for AIDS farm for kids um with disabilities I mean so many different organizations because of your network now you could call upon people say here what you mean I'll be able to give me cash you could give me Goods in kind I need your support for this particular initiative so I've learned to raise funds utilize my network accordingly to how up on an email and use to do the work that they do as well too so it's all part of again that simple Act of saying yes when being called upon to volunteer and I encourage young people to do it it's something that you will never regret to be honest yeah excellent excellent I think that's phenomenal advice so now I'm going to turn to you as an HR practitioner and you touched on it a little bit when you were talking about you know uh you when you're looking at two resumes if one person has more experience and more exposure and has volunteered you you know they are more likely to be shortlisted but when we look at the landscape and and yes I appreciate that we have far more diversity than we've ever had but we are a long way from where we need to be in terms of having more women more people of color leading organizations all all across the bloom how what are what are some of us getting wrong what are we not doing in in the application process in the networking process why are we not seeing enough diversity at the leadership level of organizations you are somebody who you see the applications come in you see the resumes come in what advice can you give from an HR standpoint of mistakes that you see coming in that could help people in being better candidates for rules well this thing is um when we engage in the Recruitment and selection process it's absolutely a game of selling right you are in fact selling yourself saying to a potential employer look at me this is what makes me unique this is what a value I'll bring to your organization choose me and it really starts with that document called a resume or CV and um that document and how we craft it how we read it the key things and and that's why I say to people look at the job description a lot of people apply for jobs without paying attention to the requirements for the job and they just see um I'll give you a perfect example Raquel corporate secretary every time I've advertised the corporate secretary rule you see executive secretaries admin assistants I mean and people not understanding here what this is a legal rule you know yeah because yeah reading and paying attention to the ability to cement and the job description that accompanies it so when you look at a job description and you see all right you must be able to do specific things you need to know through that document call your resume or your CV whichever one you have um or after it in such a way that it appears to what they're looking for in terms of the requirements for the rule that's one um thing so that's because remember that's because introduction to you right yeah yourself um what I see a lot of people doing now that it's a definite um something that I will definitely not recommend is including photos on their resume right as you've rightly said Di and all these different issues that exist now we live in a little bit diversity is at the top of everyone's tongue at this point in time and one show we should not be selected sometimes is to include a photo because you will be doing yourself an injustice even if you think you're absolutely beautiful um someone for that someone who may have a different idea of what they're looking for in that card is it from the time they see your photo you may choose not to select you may be too beautiful for the job or you may be too happy for the job or you may not be the right reason right ethnicity right size the right gender so you don't include things that allow the demographic data to be determined let the employer or they would be employer see what you bring to the table in terms of your past experience and highlight what you've been able to achieve sometimes the CP replicated job description and not necessarily say these were my achievements while I was here we're not interested in um you know what I had to type but I had to answer the phone whether you had to prepare a budget you have to demonstrate that you managed your budget and your budget was the sum of five hundred thousand dollars and you manage it well you never went over your budget would imagine whether you manage projects and those projects with the value of a billion dollars or less you know data capturing elements of measurables kpi things that you were able to achieve during your tenure in an organization rather than replicating what's on your job description so that's a mistake that people make as well and um something that I will discourage in terms of how you prepare your resume because again it's your first introduction now when we get to the point where you've been invited to the interview now oh there's so many mistakes that are made Raquel um from how people dress to the choice of jewelry to the choice of um hairstyles or even nail polish colors or the length of your of your nail you don't want to do things or or dress in a way that is very distracting to channel that will allow them or have them focus in on how you look rather than what you're seeing as well too so that's why I always recommend neutral colors you know keep it simple not too much jewelry because you want to be totally engaged in a conversation and not someone wondering why I hear so long or why did you choose to have your hair blonde or yellow or pink or green you know so that I'm also recognizing that it is in fact a process where you are assessing the potential employer as well so it's assessment happening on both sides so you should treat it as a conversation and not walk into it from a fear in a position of fear other people's fear the process but recognizes a conversation and we just want to get to know you get to understand how you could add value to the organization how you can make a difference what you'll be bringing to the table and because you've already been selected and in that space you've already met the minimum criteria supplementary regurgitate your qualifications and experience is a definite no but be prepared to again speak about your achievements and if given the opportunity what you intend to do demonstrate that the competencies that they're looking for that you have it so share your experiences or the times that you've managed or dealt with situations that is similar to what you could potentially be dealing with in this job that is what will enable you um to be a bit or give you the edge um ahead of another candidate so it's how you prepare for the interview as well and how you engage your process and a professionalism as well too so how you follow up how you write even thanking the panel Allah into an email saying thank you for for meeting with me and I look forward to hearing from you those things will distinguish you from another candidate so it's just selling and how you sell yourself to say yes I am the right person for this job um choose me and I I will definitely make the difference and I will definitely contribute to the goals and objectives of your organization I will abide by your values your corporate values I share your vision you know those are things if I could sit in an interview and say well I recognize your vision is this this matches my personal vision for myself I'm connected to that as well those are the things that will make you you know a bit different from the other candidates that's such great advice and you know I see that all the time as well like you see you know either resumes or cover letters that come in talking about what they want and I'm like people don't care about what you want people care about what they're looking for how are you the right candidate for me and the same way that you're talking again about you know putting down what you did you know I see so many people make this mistake with their resumes where they put down the work that they did versus how did you what did you achieve in this role so how did you know if I'm if I'm hiring for a a corpse or if I'm hiring for a CIO I know what that role does what I want to know is how do you do it what did you do in your last role to make that so incredible what did you achieve in that role that would make you valuable to me and our organization and what we're trying to accomplish and yes you see people who come in and ask basic questions about the organization that's on the front page of the website so you're like you didn't even look at the website like you don't want this job and I think you know a lot of people feel like it's a numbers game in getting a job and I'm far more of an advocate for costing a very small net that goes deep so that you are certain Listen of these five or six jobs that I'm applying for these are the 506 jobs that I want and I'm willing to do the work and I know that I'm a good fit and rather than you know you see people sending on mass resumes and it's just like you didn't send this to me that you send this to to everybody it's not customized for me at all this isn't this isn't a job that you particularly care about you just need a job right now and I think especially as you get higher and higher up in the organization you're hiring for c-level uh c-level people you want to find some one who is passionate about the work that you're doing versus well I just need need a warm seat yes more certainly and those generic resumes and cover letters you're talking about sometimes candidates even make the mistake of addressing it incorrectly as well because they've mass produced it and sent it out so not even taking time to do the research and saying okay well Cabela's division our manager feature here so just who yeah it's their hiring manager Dear Sir Madam you know do the research let the potential employer know that you in fact you really want to be here that you're interested in being here you know who the parties are you know who the potential interview panel might be so you walk into a space you've already research your organization so you can identify you see you by his or her face because you saw it online you know you could identify the HR manager as well very easily so you could extend your hand and say yes Miss Moses it's a pleasure to meet you but almost Moses even introducing herself just yet you know because you've done your book in advance that to me demonstrates someone who is already ready you know invested in knowing what my organization is about and knowing who the players are and who you need to impress sometimes to those things help yeah yeah no years ago I was working I was going to Jazz Festival in Jamaica with the CEO of Scotia Jamaica at the time and he gets to the we you know we get there together and we're we're getting in no he shouldn't he should need no introduction because it's his Booth it's cautious booth and so the lady looks at me and she's like what's your name and I tell her my name and she checks the list and she says Okay and she says she says to him what's your name and he's like I'm Bob I'm with hospitality and she's like Bob with hospitality and she doesn't realize he's joking but he's the CEO of the person who has sponsored this not only this event but this booth she is working for him and doesn't even know yeah and it was just like I just had to like pull her aside and be like oh my God no he's the CEO of Scotia don't don't just let him in you know and this is something if you're working for somebody you should know you should know who you're working for but I mean I think that's great advice and and we definitely need to get more more diverse candidates having that edge and being so specialized helping to prepare themselves being well volunteered so that they have a breadth of experience that they can bring to the table what other advice would you would you give to someone coming up whether an HR in another industry good advice that you'd give them about how to navigate the world of work even a seasoned professional as you move from organization to organization the culture is different the people differ some systems even or little seam Industries you've shared um it may be the same industry but the film operates very different from films operate very differently from each other so having a cultural Mentor within the organization that you're in because you want someone to associate with the internal organizational politics who may help you to navigate your way through the complexities of your organization depending on the size of it as well too who can give you good tips if you intend or you want to see how to move from one correct stream to another because if you look at my Organization for example highly technical Engineers project managers facilities managers and then there's a big administrative feel you know um you know the the job families as we will see in HR so how do I move from Administration into technical or vice versa you know so helping having a mentor coach will help you along the way with understanding and appreciating how to move how to navigate and even check insights into opportunities that not necessarily open any Market just yet and that could go along with your career progression in an organization um by having a mentor too they could potentially advise you about where and how to socialize and to meet we find a lot of people they we're going to go home now it's good to do that time to time but sometimes you have to take the time on to socialize the network outside of the workspace and to learn and meet and greet with people in a different space where you get to appreciate them differently you get to humanize them sometimes we see CEOs and they're think they're not humans or they don't enjoy a cocktail or they don't appreciate music or they don't know how to dance right or they can't sing karaoke you miss it I mean entirely different side to someone as well all of that helps having someone to coach you along you will teach you how to to you know basic etiquettes in environments like that as well too because sometimes they just don't know when you can make serious blunders that could give really a progression in an organization or a career movement so that is a very small small place very very small and how we treat with our current employers and the concept of Burning Bridges on very bad teams is a definite in fact a lot of young people not understanding the entry any exit they're equally important right yeah when you entered you made all these efforts while on probation you were the best employee because you want to get confirmed in the job how you exit also matters as well too and you do want to leave a whole disaster trail behind you as well where you burn so many bridges that you can't go back or you can't seek advice or there's someone that you left behind who can help and assist you as you as you move forward as well all of that a coach and um or a mentor either which we can help you appreciate and understand because some people just don't know and in the absence of interacting with experienced people senior people in their field not necessarily by age but just by the volume of the experience and the breadth of the experiences that is so critical to your success to any young person listening to this podcast it is critical get yourself one and what I will also say too is that people must be open to criticism and feedback don't expect always to be told how great and wonderful you are we live in a gen in a time where there's some generations that are not comfortable with feedback and they don't receive it very well um they're not as tough scanners other Generations I would say and you have to be okay with it because feedback helps you to hold in the skills that you thought you may have had but you don't have just yet and someone on the outside examining looking in could definitely point you to areas that you could improve but if you're close-minded towards it or you see it as a personal attack on understanding and appreciating the message and what somebody is trying to share an impart onto you you find yourself not necessarily fine-tuning and improving yourself to become a better version of yourself because you didn't receive the feedback in a positive manner or in the in the way that the person intended for you to receive it so you have to be comfortable with it comfortable with honestly examining yourself and being honest with the person that you see in the reflection because not all the time we are great or we like to think we are but the more the time Israel and receiving that feedback can help us to become better at what we do so that would be my my additional bit of advice it really does help and it goes a long way when I sit with my team to do performance assessments um part of our meeting um includes feedback that they give to me I often like to know what I am doing to hamper your progress if I'm not resourcing you enough if I'm not making myself available to you enough whatever it might be you tell me because I want to move I want to see you succeed I like winners to be honest Raquel and let's have a winning team right yeah so anything that I could do to make you better at your job anything that you need you tell me and let's see if I can make it happen for you but I don't want anyone sitting on my team upset and unhappy not feeling that they could be open and honest not feeling that they could be vulnerable or transparent with me I don't want that at all we are all humans there's a bit of humanity in all of us and I want all of us to be vulnerable and share from time to time so you see that be human we humanize we work space so we recognize when we have all moments when we be down and out and then we at the top of our game but we're all working in the same direction towards a particular goal and objective and that's that's how I treated my team to be honest I have a really good HR team I must say I'm a young Dynamic team and their pleasure to work with and they understand me now in the beginning it wasn't always like that because I was new I'm I was fairly new to your organization but now we're running like a wild gel machine and it's because of that approach you know where I say you tell me tell me what I could do better what I what in fact I say do I annoy you in any way I've asked someone that already from time to time because I know I could be especially when I remember something or want something that I'm like okay don't forget so right so I may remind you a thousand times really what it is you know yeah yeah no I think such great points because you know for me the the taking criticism and feedback I have to decide what do I want to be do I want to be right in this moment or do I want to be excellent I want to be excellent so I'm willing to take on the feedback because it means that I'm always learning I'm always growing I'm always becoming better because I you know I refuse to believe that I'm done I have to I have to have the ability to continue to be better and you were talking about our Market is a small Market but let me tell you something I have left Trinidad and gone to South Africa and run into people I know I've gone to Nigeria and run into people I know I've been all over the globe and run into people I know the Earth is small you will work for an organization burn a bridge and turn up in the next organization and run into people that you know or run into people who know the people where you burnt that bridge you know I say to my family or and my team all the time we are not in the business of making enemies we are in the business of making friends so we will end every relationship amicably because you just don't have the you just don't have the bandwidth for it you don't have the the the capital to be Burning Bridges that's just not a thing that we do anymore and fully agreed and as I said to my team as well we are in the yes business fine we used to make things happen we find ways to resolve problems to help with Solutions all of that helps in Champion our rulers practitioners in the organization and you can ask um useful or not useful but um certainly a strategic member of the organization as well too so in addition to not building the bridges make yourself useful as well too and need it in an organization as well yeah thank you so much thank you so much cavelle cavelle Joseph St Uma the president of her map as well as a member of the board of directions directors of the national training agency and the public relations officer of The orthologic Graduate School of Business alumni she is an absolute one to watch an innovator Trailblazer and and someone who gave us really great advice about navigating the world of work and how do you get into those spaces and get your name called in the spaces where you want to be thank you so much for staying with us and listening to this episode and I hope if you haven't already that you will subscribe and join us on this journey to get more diversity at the leadership level of all of our organizations if you want it if you can dream it if it is part of the journey that you are on stick with it it belongs to you thank you so much bye [Music]