Olivia Nuzzi on Trump's Trial: Insults, Naps, And A Judge Threatening Jail

White House Correspondence Dinner I he's never really shown an ability to moderate his behavior but the threat of jail time I have to imagine it seems much more real what it would be like to be you completely powerless so Olivia thanks so much for coming thanks for really appreciate it um I want to start with the White House Correspondence Dinner weekend we were both down in DC for did you have you recovered from that yet it's like I find it to be a pretty exhausting weekend yeah um I didn't participate as like intensely as I have in previous years I mean like for it was still a lot of social interaction you see the same people at every and have the exact same conv totally like my fiance Ryan and I had this like ongoing bit with Ari melber when we first saw him like on Friday night we were like we're going to see we took bets on how many more times we would see him that weekend and every time we'd pass by each other we would like raise our fingers with the number of times that it had been um it gets pretty ridiculous but I felt like The Vibes were off this year it might maybe it was me maybe I was bringing a negative energy I spoke with one or two people who were like oh this is the best one since the Obama years which I was a little bit surprised by interesting did you go to the dinner itself yeah yeah is that a a boring Affair I have a hard time just like sitting still and watching any type of programming whatsoever um and so yes I find it excruciating um but it's it's nice I support the mission of the correspondence Association I'm very excited for Eugene Daniels uh the future president organ his outfits this year were the only exciting white really amazing he looked like Natalie Portman and Black Swan one of the nights he had like feathers on he's a great dresser and a great person and reporter so I'm very excited for him to be in charge of the organization next year Colin Jo yeah good I thought he was great I thought some of the critical assessment was like really mean I think like his stuff was kind of vanilla but isn't it supposed to be I thought it was very I I really like him um and um I like um Michael CH and like I thought it I thought he was great I had no problem with it I thought it was an improvement from previous ones that I've seen I also um so I saw you at the CNN brunch which was on Sunday I actually thought they did a good job they did a great job with that it was like an interesting change because the previous year it was I can't remember that Testo performed at 11 a.m. yeah yeah there was another DJ this year it was not Testo not T A lot quieter yeah it was more of garden party which I like it's a weird time to have a DJ it's slightly odd yeah it's like the that's the one party that I don't really necessarily want to DJ at it's like a weird party I mean all those brunches are weird because like there's a DJ you're at the British ambassador's residence you're on a lawn and then like you turn around there's like Jason Miller Walk Jason Miller walking around yeah do are you working when you do this weekend or you're just you're there for fun am well okay am I am I working or I'm not having fun um but I yeah I guess I feel like I'm there like representing New York Magazine kind Source building I guess getting your face in front of people I I guess I don't really I don't think about it too hard it's just like a thing that you do right when you're part of the White House Press Corp you know and you're part of the correspondence Association um but yeah maybe it was my negative energy this year are you are you because I know people criticize the weekend a lot they say that it's you know it's just a bunch of journalists backs slapping and applauding each other and gosip are you a cynic in that sense about the weekend or do you think it's fine and the journalist should be doing it no matter what's going on in the world I mean DC is a very backs Slappy self- applauding City in general so it doesn't feel like a a big particularly out of like I guess it's different in that it's official and there are a lot of uh weird corporate sponsors and um yeah it's it's fine I you know I think it's great that they give out scholarships it's great that they try and raate some attention journalists who have been murdered journalists who are imprisoned um overseas um all of that's great it's a little hard for me to like sit there with a straight face with all the you know self- congratulatory stuff but right you know maybe I'm just a hater I'm definitely a hater yeah just a little bit I want to talk about the Trump trial you've been all over it I think you're one of the reporters who's been really crushing this as a story and you're certainly like your Twitter feed is the place that I really go to to find out what's happening yikes I know um you Trumps Trial know I go for you know let's say the New York Times for some substance but yours to really find out like the fun stuff that's going on inside the courtroom and that's also very insightful um tell us about the trial so far what have we learned about this case I kind of I went into it thinking this is old news we all know the details of this we've been talking about Access Hollywood and Stormy Daniels for years and years at this point so I wasn't really I didn't have very high expectations for how revolu story this would be how interesting it would be um and I've been really surprised by how much I feel like I've learned and there was so much that I had not thought about in a really long time um that in hindsight is really interesting to reconsider about that period of time in the Trump campaign that election um and just the sort of like reverberations over the last several years in American political life um and it's been it was it's really strange to see Trump in that in that setting it's like i' you know i' seen him he's been indicted I'd seen him arraigned um I didn't think it would be so different but it really is cuz when you're in that Courthouse it's like their own kingdom and there are rules it's like being a kid in a class room you have to you know ask sort of permission to do anything um and I I went downstairs the other day to get some water because there's nowhere to get water on the 15th floor where the proceedings are happening and uh it's cash only I learned the hard way way I had to have a cop by me my water but um you know you're there and there's like public defenders with inmates right and you know I had to go look for like the public information office the other day which is on a you an adjacent floor and there are people in cells on that floor you know and there like officers sitting outside the cell like you know out of a a cartoon you know with their keys and it's it's sort of just shocking to be in that type of setting with with him it's very um I'm aware like when I've been describing it especially when I'm on like MSNBC or something I'm like I know that I'm feeding into this sort of like resistance it's like resistance bit yeah and I'm aware of that and I'm trying not to be overly um you know dramatic about it but it is a very dramatic scene so it's yeah it's like Trump looking Dow and yeah that like the judge chastising him and threatening jail time I mean well but it it is one of the rare instances that we've seen of the last like I'd say decade where Trump is not in control and where he's powerless yeah um which is a very interesting setting yeah I find it very sad not like like oh I feel so bad you don't feel bad for him I mean don't come for me um but like it's it's a sad it's just a weird sad thing it's like to go I covered him here obviously in 2015 2016 um I grew up in the tri state area I grew up in New Jersey my dad worked in Manhattan for the sanitation department he'd bring home the Daily News in the New York Post every day so he's like the great tabloid villain it's funny I grew up in New York I feel like that's something that people that maybe grew up in different places around the country didn't really understand is that like we grew up hearing about Donald Trump your parents would be like this guy's such a buffoon like when you were a kid yeah I think we're like around the same age like The Apprentice came out when we were in elementary school right and I know that was a national phenomenon or inter International and kids knew all about him would like dress up as him for Halloween probably would have made a really good Trump as a kid H most insulting thing anyone's ever said to me but thank you I somebody once did say that I looked like Eric Trump really H that's not true no um one time someone if it makes you feel better someone when I was like I don't know maybe like 15 someone was like you look like Seline Deion I was like thanks and like you know like before she had all that surgery pre-surgery come on like famously on attractive uh anyway um don't listen to them um but yeah I I find it very sad it's like I keep I'm talking to a lot of people that I I used to be in like daily contact with and like I still keep up with but I'm not on the film with every day or multiple times a day anymore um and there's this sort of weird dream like quality like it's it's time real what year is it um and I'll be talking to someone I just think like when I met you 10 years ago almost I guess was it just inevitable that we would end up you know with this guy in Criminal Court here maybe it was and maybe maybe I just didn't have the foresight I I don't know one of the most interesting things I find about looking back cuz I was like you when I first I wasn't particularly excited to cover this trial because obviously it's one of the you know lesser of the criminal cases that he faces and but then when you start reading about the substance of Media Collusion the case and the fact that I mean it's a serious story and it's a serious media story and for all the whining about you know media collusion that you hear from Trump's supporters in 2016 this was a real case of the national Inquirer effectively colluding with the Trump campaign to bury bad news about it I mean like the you know NPR not covering the hunter Biden story has nothing on this and the coordination between yeah um the Trump campaign and the national Inquirer uh this weird confirmation of all of these things that like felt sort of vaguely true at the time but it's all much more obvious and much more much simpler than you would have thought that like reality could possibly allow for like yeah they they were in cahoots but they were literally contractually in cahoots right it really was calling up you know David pecker I guess or John Howard and saying like and then to hear from pecker about I mean the thing that I was like it was almost like when people talk about hearing from John Dean during the Watergate hearings that there were tapes like there were tapes right said uh that it dragged into the White House and they're having meetings about it in the Oval Office and it's involving what you know White House officials who are being paid by taxpayers um that was like astonishing to me and so just so we get a sense of the timeline the the payments were made during the campaign and then the reimbursements I guess were made when Trump was was president or I yeah I believe so and then it's a little murky and then the continuing deciding to continue the contract MD K McDougall was then a columnist or a fitness yeah contributor a colleague of ours really when you think about it um and uh according to Pecker's testimony there was a conversation with White House communications officials Sarah huab Sanders and HCK and um and and him uh about whether or not it was a good idea to continue Caren mcdougall's uh non-disclosure which is wild the White House was doing that crazy did are hope Hicks and Sarah hucky Sanders going to testify here are they piix is expected to be a a witness for the prosecution um I haven't heard anything about Sarah hucke did you follow the gag order stuff yeah I mean the gag order stuff is fascinating because you the the major penalty that they can issue to Donald Trump for violating the gag order is $1,000 for each violation of the gag order um judge Maran wishes that it could they could penalize him more than that financially they can't he threatened jail time and it's like it's this crazy situation where do you think Trump is going to be able to avoid that VI I really don't know I mean he has not um I mean he's doing a rally as we speak in Wisconsin like God knows what he's saying right now when I left he was like calling Chris Christie fat repeatedly so play the hits who knows um yeah he was really playing the hits and having a good time up there um but I I don't know I mean he's never really shown an ability to moderate behavior um but the threat of jail time I mean I have to imagine being in that cour having no power having no control over the situation he's obviously not enjoying it not that any criminal defendant is happy about it I'm sure um I have to imagine it seems much more real what it would be like to be you completely powerless uh but I don't I don't know I don't know how he processes um threats like that and part of me thinks and I know this is silly but that maybe part of him has thought that the possibility of being briefly jailed would be good for his campaign oh yeah I mean maybe I don't know how he would I cannot picture him doing it doing it but um but certainly he loves pretending that he is the victim of this vast deep deep state conspiracy um he loves to be grieved uh he loves to have an enemy he's been campaigning on his mug shot since it was since before it was issued he's fundraised off of it it's been turned into merch um he talks about it all the time um it's this kind of iconic symbol of his political persecution for the campaign so if he could kind of uh Mandela himself into being a even bigger martyr um I'm sure in theory he would like that in practice I don't think he would do very well in jail no I don't think he would enjoy I don't know where they would send him to tombes or Rikers or something like that but I don't think you would enjoy either yeah I wouldn't enjoy it either no to be perfectly clear yeah jail doesn't sound fun either way it does not what what was it like did he have to sit through when they were doing jury selection and that obviously took a while did he have to sit through as they Insults were uh having these people come up and cuz like some of the stuff that they were saying about him was quite funny yeah some of the stuff was fairly insulting and then you know the reading off the social media post and stuff what was it like having this profess procession of New Yorkers come up and sit down and and like read off insulting social media posts about Trump while he sitting in the room I mean he it was interesting at a certain point you could tell when jur prospective jurors really wanted to get picked for the jury and like at one point one prospective juror turned and addressed him and apologized for her Mean Tweets about him that had been pretty brutal I think she called him a sexist or whatever did he accept the apology no no there was no exchange but it was just I mean it was just very strange um hilarious situation where people are you know digging up 10-year-old tweets and and having to answer for them in front of you know a jury of their peers and the former president and strange it's not that big of a courtroom like I was kind of expecting like I don't know some like Legally Blonde style huge there's back yeah benches and Stu I mean there are benches but it's not it's still a fairly intimate space right so strange have you fallen asleep at all be honest it's funny like as I said I have a hard time sitting still and watching any type of proceeding but I found it so fascinating but even so it's like this really drab space and with really bad light and your eyes do sort of glaze over um but I don't I um implicitly trust Maggie hberman and I um I trust when when she reported that that was the case I've talked to her about it I I am sure that she was correct um some of the subsequent uh CL of sleeping like it's complicated because you're sitting behind him right so if his head is dropping down you don't know you have a feed of so there's like a even in the there's a feed of his face right um it's it's kind of far away from where you're sitting but you can see facial expressions you can see when he's saying something you know you can try and read his lips and um some reporters have binoculars with them in that courtroom to try and nerd think about getting like Opera get theera where do I get that I don't know um but uh so you know you're kind of you're craning your neck and you're trying to see um but there's also this screen in front of um his desk or the table in front of him and so sometimes it's hard to tell if he's like looking down at something and it's sort of being obscured by that screen if that makes sense it would be like uh you know if this was a screen right here you wouldn't necessarily know if I was looking down I was reading something sleeping right or sleeping so I I found it a little difficult to be totally certain about exact given moment what's your pro cuz I've actually I used to work for the Daily News and so I I've been in these these Reporting courtrooms and for far you know petty crime trials nothing nothing like this but what did you do uh H what what's your process like for reporting on something like this like I are you taking notes throughout and going or you can't record I imagine in the courtroom so you're record right um I'm just observing observing and then going home and writing writing stuff out or yeah I'm taking like sketching and just outad of you know boredom sometimes um uh doing really bad sketches um and just trying to share as much uh detail as possible I mean it's it's a crazy thing that there are no cameras allowed in there right I mean when he first comes in there's still photographers right before the jur is brought in before the proceeding start so you have those daily images of him sort of sitting there in with this Sullen expression um but the fact that there's no you know there are no cinematographers in there um I think it's pretty crazy so what do you make of the argument that you know you're someone who has been hauled on Media coverage you know MSNBC and CNN to talk about what the scene is like inside the courtroom what do you make of the argument that media is covering this too closely I think I John Stewart was carping about that like two weeks ago he was like the obsession about this don't cover it then John Stewart right like I mean he doesn't have to cover it I I generally I respect John Stewart um I from he lived in my hometown for a while right back New Jersey yeah um but I I think in general anyone calling for Less coverage of anything uh is wrong I I just think that the more details that people have there no as I said there's there's no video in there the only thing that the American public has to rely on for information about this trial are the eyes and ears of the reporters and sketch artists who are allowed in there so I think as much detail as possible um you can do with that what you will you don't have to pay attention to all that detail um you can tune out of that type of coverage obviously it's like a little breathless some of the cable coverage it can feel a little ridiculous but it's a historically significant moment we've never had a former president on criminal trial before um and people I think should have as much information about it as possible yeah I it reminds me of when Biden people whine about like axios or Politico doing a sort of minor story about a president and then you'd have like supporters of Biden going like oh this isn't a story why are they covering this and it's like well it's the president of the United States yeah it's a small story but it's color about what's going on in the White House in a very powerful place I mean my opinion always is that if you are seeking political Presidential Power if you're seeking public office but especially the presidency the bar is really on the floor for what C what C coverage right I agree I want to talk about your recent piece in New York Magazine the race between Ruben gyo and carry Lake what did you find when you went there what what was the story of that race what are the stakes of that race tell us about that um well I love Arizona first of all you're a big Arizona fan love AR I love the American West in general inter I think I'm like um some deep molecular level Americans have an urge to go west they do and I yeah famously yeah famously we love it we love going west um so I love it there um it's fascinating she is sort of this proxy for Donald Trump um she is attempting to cast gyo as a proxy for Joe Biden and in many ways he is he's sort of a lowprofile democratic member of Congress who votes as most of them do along party lines uh there's not a lot of daylight between him and the president um and she's now in quite a predicament of the day that our story published um this blow up about abortion in that state um occurred so it was sort of mostly a story about the border and Border policy um and their respective positions on the border and already that felt like it was a microcosm of of the national election right this is Ground Zero for the election fraud according to car Lake and according to supporters of of Donald Trump um there were a lot of issues that had National significance and then all of a sudden abortion came into that in a really significant way Trump and Lake did you read the Washington Post report this week about how Trump is not particularly happy with Lake he's apparently annoyed that she's always at maralago and he doesn't think that she necessarily has a good chance of winning she's like the Kimmy Gibler marago did uh what did you make of that do you think that like is that bad for her that Trump it's terrible for her I mean it's true but even just having it out there it's like with Trump any coverage like that always runs the risk I think of like kind of manifesting itself as true right he reads it and then says you know yeah maybe I don't like her that much yeah um I I think it's terrible for her I mean her entire pitch is that basically if you elect me I'll be there in the Senate to make sure that Donald Trump gets to be his most Donald Trump he gets to govern in the most Donald Trump way possible so you have Trump campaigning promising this sort of remarkable expansion of executive Authority right he wants to uh make the justice department less independent um he wants to use power to go after his law enforcement tormenters um his political opponents um and you have her promising that with her in the Senate she would make sure that all of that was possible um so if she's no longer um she calls herself Donald Trump and heels Jesus yeah it's pretty plague it's funny that despite her fty and obsession with He thinks shes a loser him he's apparently still not that into her and I suspect it's because he thinks she's a loser because she lost the last election I wonder if that's true I mean it certainly might be although his fate is sort of tied to hers as relates to right she lost in 2022 right in the governor's race he lost in 2020 they both claim that the election was stolen um but not that he you know he doesn't acknowledge that he lost they're both a little confused she calls herself the lawful Governor still I love that she still calls herself the governor it's so The return of Trump critics great and like a Starbucks in Sedona she's like current governor of AR you had a great another great piece a few months ago about the Trump critics in the Republican party that are now coming back into his arms you profiled you don't remember this do you you profiled a a woman who had voted for Karen olon my beloved Karen and she voted for Trump and then yeah got upset with him and and ran back into his arms um after he defeated everyone else in the primary I find this such an interesting phenomen phen on because I really feel like on January 6 2021 mhm so many Republicans said that they were done with Trump including lindsy Graham and it really felt like to I think people in the media that he was he was cooked that was it he had done it what do you think has driven the return of people into a position where they're now saying that they would vote for him I think part of it is that he's accumulating power again he controls the party the party has been completely remade In His Image right the RNC is run nominally by Laura Trump his daughter in- law um he is going to be the nominee and you know unless something happens between now and the conventions and that seems unlikely um and it it really doesn't matter I mean and also a certain faction of the right spent basically from January 7th on trying to rewrite the history of January 6th um um saying that the feds had infiltrated um that's how it started yeah that was the first Theory how it started that it was all about the feds it peaceful that it was peaceful people weren't armed um it wasn't that big of a deal um and I think this is just the result of that and I don't know I've talked to people who you know fled from Trump's side and thought that it was over um who still no matter how bad it seemed for him theorized that if it looked like he was going to get the nomination again if it looked like he could win people would probably just come back right and there is in in most people are just making a cynical calculation about power proximity to power but I arguably the theory that you know if if we're not there just imagine the type of extremist who would be there was sort of proven wise on January 6th with Mike pens right yeah and you know The withdrawal of troops from Syria all of his Trump's Chiefs of chief of staffs for that and um you know having James madis in the administration to stop was it the withdrawal of troops from Syria happening on a Tuesday at 4 P.M yeah you can't prove a negative right so it's hard to say um you know who knows what would have happened if if the White House had been staffed entirely by like the my pillow guy and Sydney Powell and Rudy Giuliani I don't know do you get the sense that that a A second Trump term second Trump term is going to be truly staffed by like the Bannon I mean it was staffed by him the first time right but he felt like he got kind of pushed out pretty quickly he's he looks pretty reasonable compared to some of the people that were there by the end that's true that is true yeah right um I don't know I don't have a real sense but a lot of people are still around you know a lot of people from the the first season are are you know waiting to could we get Ryan's prous back in the white house probably I mean probably yeah this is going to be us you're the only one who's like I'm pushing I'm pushing for R I really ryance was a great character in the early early chapters great characters Sean Spicer Sean Spicer was yeah thinking about him in the bushes um there was that great story I think it was a Wall Street Journal story about him like stealing a mini fridge from some like interns in the eeob and like Wheeling it across that driveway um I think that got a couple people fired or at least one person that I really liked fired that story um but this is what I was going to say about car Lake before it came back to me but I think Trump I think Maggie Haberman was the person who said that you're never more valuable to Trump than when you're walking away from him he does not like people who like him that much I think it's why he he never respected some of the people who were most um obsequious around him um and people who left the White House and came back like like a hopix I think that type of thing instills not I don't know if he respects anybody but like there's a certain um I don't know I I think I've written about like the Groucho Mark's law of fraternization as it relates to Donald Trump like he there might be I don't mean to be like Mary Trump psychoanalyzing him but like there I think there's some deeply rooted um maybe self-hatred I don't think he's even consciously aware of it um that makes him resent people who are too nice to him all the time and who like him too much yeah you know now you covered the campaign in 2016 I did yeah Covering Trumps 2020 campaign do you think that there's when you're trying to think about how to approach covering the upcoming campaign do you do you plan on covering it differently I mean I feel like the rallies were a really big part of the 26 campaign because they were so crazy and new is is this going to be a very similar campaign to that one or how are you are you going to spend more time in Mar Lago on the campaign Trail like what do you think it's going to look like I don't know I mean right now he is campaigning in between court dates right so Wednesdays are a day off from Court he is in I think Michigan and Wisconsin today um he you learn a lot from him at these rallies you know hearing from him directly is important I know there's always people saying you know don't platform him don't take the rallies live um I think it's important to hear from him directly uh I still watch them or you know occasionally I'll attend them um what are the crowds like are they similar more amped up it depends on Nighttime rallies where you are and it depends on if it's a daytime Rally or an evening rally um the evening rallies are typically like way more worthwhile if are they rowdier they're rowdier um they're it's more of like a um trying to think of how to describe it they're rowdier he goes on longer typically um and it's also like what type of person can devote the middle of usually a work day um to attending a political event you have to wait in line for hours and hours you're getting sort of a a more skews retired you know um and I think the the nighttime rallies tend to be a little bit more um diverse in that sense now New York Magazine you are the Washington correspondent for New York Magazine and I I'm a huge fan of New York Magazine I actually I I bought the issue that your Arizona piece was in thank you at my local news agents Soho News International on Prince Street um I'd really like for them to sponsor right podcasts I want to get like free magazines not New York Magazine I'll pay for that um but uh I bought it because it had this great it had your Great Piece it had a great uh piece or I guess feature on the places where people have eaten in New York over the years which was so good and I was flipping through it it made me think that I think New York Magazine is really having a moment yeah I think so in a way that magazines have not had in a while you know like the cuts doing well there's all those crazy op-eds that people are loving that um keep somehow getting discovered and published you're great I love sha mcc's stuff um what do you think about New York Magazine as a as a part of American Media culture and do you feel like that as well like it's having a bit of a moment I do I think David hll our editor-in chief has been really wonderful um he you know I was hired by Adam Moss his predecessor um David I think I did his first cover it was about Pete Budaj like as editor-in Chief um I think he's made you know some really good choices in hiring um he's made some really great choices editorially um even when people you know don't get it or uh you know or don't agree with it I think for some reason we always really seem to break through and are part of a conversation in a way that I don't think a lot of other magazines are are right now um there's like a certain magic to how he's leading the place yeah and it's like like the only other magazines I could think that are doing well right now are definitely New Yorker skewed towards an older audience and I think it's very hard for a magazine in particular or any media Outlet right now to capture a younger audience I always I mean anytime anyone you know if I someone asks me who I'm with and I I say New York Magazine and they get confused and I say the New Yorker I'm always like no no no we're the fun one but it's true we're we're the fun one and there's always something I want to read and there's always something that makes me excited to pick up the publication and it was my favorite magazine before I worked here I me I've worked here for a long time now I've worked here for seven years seven and a half years um and but I I've never gotten bored of it you know there's very rarely like an issue where I'm not like dying to read something it's also and I think this is a very I mean it's obviously a very old school attitude but I really like seeing my name in print something nice about seeing your by line in print yeah it's nice and like for me you know it's it's nice to be fact checked and work with like the best copy editors and all of those things that you know for online only Publications you don't have that type of infrastructure but that are very much a part of you know classic magazine journalism and it's nice to be a part of I mean New York Magazine uh we have been around since the late 60s I think we were founded in with 68 um and it's this beautiful like history of narrative long form journalism um you know so-called new journalism um and it's nice that that's still alive you know it didn't like die out with Brin or sheii or wolf who else Media Outlets are you reading especially when it comes to like coverage of the campaigns like who are the journalists or the outlets that people should be reading um I read well I read Politico Playbook and I listen to the Deep dive podcast is that that's Ryan lizza okay Co a co-host situation with him and somebody else or is it just him no it's his podcast it's good it's good yeah all right I'll check it out am I allowed to promote a podcast on course yeah yeah we'll disclose it it's great um I obviously I read Maggie and Swan at the times I they're exceptional they're exceptional I you know I really trust them too um and I you know they sometimes when I'm reading coverage of the campaign where it's like I have to stop and think about the attribution someone used and like I know who that qu quote came from and I wouldn't have quoted them like that um and I never have to think about that with the two of them and I just really trust them um I think Mark Caputo is great he's at the the bull workk now um oh right after the messenger got wrecked yeah um that was so screwed up the craziest thing like what the hell that has ever happened eight months I thought it would be two years I always figure with startups you get like but also a startup like that I mean when we were looking at the business model and it was all based on programmatic Advertising which is a very similar business model to what mediaite does yeah but mediaite has a team of 20 writers and editors and the messenger had 300 yeah 44,000 ft of office space in Manhattan at a time when everyone works remote yikes I mean it was just yeah the idea that it it I but eight months but yeah that was crazy yeah crazy um I think a Lan app plot at the Atlantic is great okay um she just had a profile of Mike Johnson that like made me care about Congress which is hard to do um I thought that was excellent um who else on politics uh Annie Carney covers Congress for the time she's great uh Meredith McGrath Politico do some Trump coverage it's great yeah very good uh Olivia NTI thanks so much for coming on the show I really appreciate it thank you