The Art of the $9000 Micro Budget Indie Film with Edward Burns

you are listening to the IFH podcast Network for more amazing filmmaking and screenwriting podcasts just go to ifhpodcastnetwork.com welcome to the Indie filmmuzzle podcast episode number 450 5K for actors 2K for insurance 2K for food and drink 9k in the can we only shot for 12 days now that's how you make an independent film Edward Burns passing from the back alley in Hollywood it's the indie film hustle podcast where we show you how to survive and thrive as an indie filmmaker in the jungles of the film Biz and here's your host Alex Ferrari welcome welcome to a special episode of the indie film hustle podcast I am your humble host Alex Ferrari Today Show is sponsored by indie film hustle's filmmaker process we provide filmmakers with Professional Services to get their films or series funded finished and distributed some of the services we offer Are Pitch deck creation film budgets and schedules domestic and international sales estimates legal contract templates Consulting post-production Services script coverage Professional Trailer editing poster design film deliverables and production payroll to learn more go to www.filmakerprocess.com Today's Show is sponsored by Rise of the film tripeneur how to turn your independent film into a profitable business it's harder today than ever before for independent filmmakers to make money with their films from predatory film Distributors ripping them off to huckster film aggregators who Prey Upon them the odds are stacked against the Indie filmmaker the old distribution model of making money with your film is broken and there needs to be a change the future of independent filmmaking is the entrepreneurial filmmaker or or the film tripreneur in Rise of the film tripreneur I break down how to actually make money with your film projects and show you how to turn your indie film into a profitable business with case studies examining successes and failures this book shows you the step-by-step method to turn your passion into a profitable career if you're making a feature film series or any other kind of video content the film tripeneur method will set you up for Success the book is available in paperback ebook and of course audiobook if you want to order it just head over to www.filmbizbook.com that's film b-i-z book.com well guys we made it to episode 450 450 episodes of the indie film hustle podcast I am humbled that you have allowed me to continue to do this podcast this show and everything that I get to do on a daily basis I want to thank you the indie film hustle tribe for all the support over the years now episode 450 was a pretty Monumental episode so I wanted to have a Monumental guest and today I have on the show indie film Legend Edward Burns now Ed blasted onto the scene in his lottery ticket story that lottery ticket story I talked so much about that filmmakers are always looking for and they're going to make their film and get picked up and it goes off to make a million dollars in their career launches well that's exactly what happened to Edward Burns with his film his 1995 film The Brothers McMullen which he made for about twenty seven thousand dollars uh on on weekends and and and he was working as a as a PA on Entertainment Tonight while he was doing it and he was oh there's just so much so many stories about how this movie got made but it got bought by Fox Searchlight and it went on to make 10 million dollars at the box office which catapulted Ed into into stardom like overnight and he followed up with she's the one with Jennifer Aniston and Cameron Diaz and he continued to make films after film film and he kept getting bigger and bigger budgets but what he realized is that he wanted to have more freedom with his art and what he did so he went back to the Brothers McMullen model which was low budget micro budget films so he made a movie called newlyweds for nine thousand dollars and he continued to make these low budget 10 000 20 000 independent films because it allowed him to be more free as a filmmaker and I really admire that about Ed because Ed not only became a very popular director and writer but he became a very popular actor starring movies like Saving Private Ryan Steven Spielberg's Masterpiece um the holiday the Christmas classic and many many more the list goes on and on how many films and TV shows he's been in over the years and many filmmakers and many guys who get thrown into that kind of world could easily just cash out and Coast for the rest of his life in his career taking acting roles and directing you know big things when they came along and so on and so forth but not Ed man he wanted to go back to his Indie roots and continues up to this day in his Indie roots and I I just was so honored to talk to Ed and have him on the show we just went I mean this interview is epic the first 30 minutes is how he was able to get Brothers McMullen off the ground there's been so many myths about Brothers McMullen and how it got made and how it got sold and we actually get the truth straight from the horse's mouth as they say and we talk about independent filmmaking about the micro budget model his remarkable book independent Ed which Chronicles his whole career from Brothers McMullen all the way uh to his latest films talking about how he broke them down how he's how he made them he really wanted to give back as much as possible and I got to tell you that book was an amazing inspiration to me to make my first film this is Meg and understanding that I could go out and make a micro budget film that could go out and make money and can get sold and can get licensed to Hulu and so on it was his book that really ignited that in me and if you ever get a chance to get his DVDs of all of these micro budget films that he makes his director commentaries are gold absolute gold and I'm gonna put links to all of those films in the show notes this was an epic conversation to say the least and if you're an independent filmmaker trying to make micro budget films this is the episode for you so without any further Ado please enjoy my conversation with Edward Burns I'd like to welcome to the show Edward Burns man how you doing Ed Alex man great to uh speak to you as I was telling you earlier I've been a fan of the podcast for a long time so it's cool to be honest that's that's humbling and remarkable when I heard that from uh from your producing partner Aaron I was floored that you'd been listening to me like I told him like sometimes you just sit in a room with a mic and you have no idea who's listening so uh that's very humbling and I I've been a fan of yours man since uh since Brothers McMullen days you are um one of those lottery ticket stories those kind of Cinderella stories that you hear about from the 90s um you know along with Robert and Kevin and and Richard Linkletter and all those guys that came around and you came in that crop man of like I always tell people the 90s was just like such a glorious time to be a filmmaker because it felt like almost every month or every week almost it was one of these stories that came out is that fair to say no uh probably it probably wasn't mean I know for me it certainly was you know Sundance was the launching pad every year you know you would see those articles coming out of there um for me it was there was a uh a couple of movies you know obviously uh Rodriguez is El Mariachi but I think before that Nick Gomez had a movie called laws of gravity it was made for 23 000 and that was really a huge influence on me um when I could see like oh wait you can make a feature film for 20 grand all in and it can then get picked up for distribution because really prior to that what you would hear when you were in film school and I'm in film School in like 89 1991. um is at the weigh-in is to make a short film yeah I remember there was um there used to be something called uh the ifp used to run something called The Independent feature film Market that they fall down at the Angelica theater in the village and that's where you know if you could get your short film in there you know all of the buyers and managers and agents the whole like New York indie film scene would be there and that was the launching pad and I can remember I went there with my first short film and there were short films that had like big budgets uh that you know really high-end production value and I knew I would never be able to raise enough money to compete with that you know then when laws of gravity comes out um uh The Living End the Greg Rocky movie came out oh that's right and the one movie that always gets on and he doesn't get the credit that he deserves Robert Townsend Hollywood shuffle oh wow without a doubt that one was a little bit more that was but that was he was still but it was still like he put it on his credit cards though we'll be right back after a word from our sponsor and now back to the show [Music] yeah it was Robert it was 86 87 and he was in LA and he made it for like it was in the 20 to 75 range it wasn't yeah it wasn't it wasn't crazy he put it on credit cards he was the first filmmaker that I heard of that put it on his credit cards because I was working at a video store back in the late 80s early 90s so I remember Hollywood Shuffle and it was just a more year is that I feel like that's kind of 87. oh it's 87 okay yeah so that's a little earlier it's right before it's before Sex Lies hits you know which was a million dollar but that before he launched the Sundance and and before laws of gravity and Mariachi and clerks and and all that run but he was one of the first to do it but he doesn't get the in that he's never in the same conversations and I I always make it a point to point out how instrumental Robert Robert Johnson is interesting yeah I like so when would metropolitanists probably but that's what you mean that's what right what's that which one's Metropolitan movie that was another one that's right that's right that was around oh God that was that was around that time but also like I mean the ones that got the most attention I mean obviously Robert uh got the biggest I mean Robert Rodriguez got the biggest thing with Mariachi like he that was that's still a mythical in in in in in in in the halls of independent film people still talk about El Mariachi as this mythical thing um uh and in the same breath with clerks and Brothers McMullen uh slacker as well um probably two years before me that was another big one because Rick made that for maybe in that 25 to 50 ring right and and I was just had Scott Moser on the show uh and and Scott was telling me I'm like Scott what was the who was the thing he's like oh it's slacker slack was the blueprint cause I'm like you guys didn't have a blueprint really it was like before that though you know Long Island's own Hal Hartley yes the guy who who I feel like because he did three in the early 90s you know he did um it was The Unbelievable Truth simple men and I forget the third but those were all done you know in that under a hundred thousand dollar um budget range and the thing that was interesting back to sort of the whole you know short film versus a feature was uh seeing that every year all of a sudden you know you had Al Hartley then you mentioned Rodriguez you had um don't forget Jim charmish Jim charmish but that's prior yeah is more in the Spike Lee she's got to have it yeah she's gotta have a time right you know those guys came up mid 80s this is more that early 90s micro budget that then got distribution and that was really I think the thing to change things because it wasn't just make a short as a calling card to get an agent to hopefully make a Hollywood feature right more like uh more like an indie uh rock band who was like you know hey we're gonna just put out our own thing and this thing has its own value we're not trying to Parlay this into a gig to work with the studio we're going to create something new here that then we can build upon so that is really what changed I think in the early 90s you know um if you look at Kevin Smith you know granted you know clerks is a micro budget movie but he basically stays within that milieu you know I know I did as well um how Hartley is another guy who did some guys or gals chose to sort of take that and turn it into sort of a bigger sort of more studio type of filmmaking career but at that time I think that's what folks were trying to do like treat it more like you're in a band and it's like all right we make gritty sort of punk rock albums and that's what we want to continue to do so when you you know when you were coming up I mean I I mean this your story also is also quite mythical about the whole being a PA and and working at ET can you tell everybody because a lot of people listening might not know the story of actually how you got um well before we get how you got to Sundance how did you get Brothers McMullen off the ground where like what made you think that you like you can make it I mean I mean you it was it's nuts now you look at it you're like oh well everyone could do that but back then there was there's no internet there was no knowledge about this really so how did you do it man um I mean it's a crazy long story and you just tell me to switch gears when you're stopped seriously I remember because it's like I make the film 28 years ago when I am basically I start when I'm 24 I think so um coming out of film school like you said I'm a production assistant at a television show in New York which basically my job was driving the van and setting up the lights that's the extent of what I did um so I had plenty of time it was a job that required no mental focus at all so I spent all my time writing screenplays I at the time you know one of the guys we forgot to mention is Tarantino and Reservoir Dogs well there's that guy yeah um so I see Reservoir Dogs and I'm like okay that is what I need to write so I probably write in my four years or three and a half years out of film School five feature length scripts three of them are Reservoir Dog rip-offs I am pouring through the trades every day trying to find or identify the agents or managers who sign first-time screenwriters so that's who I'm sending all of my scripts all right and every day my dad told me something he's like look there's absolutely another filmmaker out there who is out working you so you need to make sure every day you do one little thing to chip away at the brick wall that separates you from the dream so that meant you know I'm gonna write a scene in my script or I'm going to write another letter to an agent or I'm going to send my short film into another Film Festival every day I have made sure I did one little thing so I write all these scripts I send them out I get nothing but rejection letters back and um uh I I come to the conclusion and this has happened to me a couple times in my career where I kind of recognize well maybe I'm just not that good you know maybe it isn't that they uh don't they can't recognize what a talent I have right maybe I'm just actually not talented right to go back to school and learn a little bit more right and at the time um I see an ad for the Robert McKee story structure class right so a lot of people might poo poo that no you know traditional Hollywood uh structure is BS you know three hacks don't pay any attention to that for me it was it was incredible I go there and and you know you learn a lot of this stuff in your you know screenwriting one-on-one stuff in film school but again you know a lot of it you you forget or you know if you want to be like a cool already kind of kid you're dismissive about that stuff at this point after five rejected screenplays I am no longer thinking I'm hot [ __ ] I am not dismissive of anything I recognize I need to learn right so I take the class and and you know a couple of things that um he said uh that really struck a chord with me one was you know what is your favorite genre of film what do you like love to watch that is the next screenplay that you should be writing you like horror write a horror script you're like you know action do that and at the time I was like a massive trafoe in Woody Allen fan like that's all I was doing uh it was all I was watching so I was like okay that's what I'm gonna do basically relationship comedy drama a little bit of an ensemble um you know look at those Woody Allen films and I'd be like okay that's a water you know for people I'm everyone listening to you I think those little water is but one shot without a cut that lasts almost two minutes of two people walking down the street in Manhattan talking about their relationships okay I know from my my film school days that's about as easy as you can do with no money uh that says as easy as seen as you can pull off compared to shooting let's say an interior scene in a crowded restaurant where I'm gonna need the higher extras and whatever so as I sit down as a and when I leave my key I'm like that's what I'm gonna do I know that's the genre that I want to play um I decided to make an ensemble because I knew from my uh my student films and when you're not paying your actors is no guarantee that any of them are ever going to show it you know especially in New York everybody's got other jobs they're waiting tables they're working in a gym um you know you would have people just bail on you in the middle of a shoot so I said if I have an ensemble and I cast myself and my girlfriend opposite me I know that even if this thing blows up I have a short film and that's why and it's a crazy way to write a screenplay but I wrote it as four sort of different movies the first movie was the three bro and then I listed all the locations that I knew I could get for free so I knew I could get my parents house so that was location number one then I knew every street corner and sidewalk and public park in New York City I knew from my working in news days uh it did not first of all there was no cost to shoot there and you would never be bothered no cop would ever asking certainly in the early 90s in New York if you had a permit to shoot we'll be right back after a word from our sponsor and now back to the show not when New York was still a little gritty then they could care less about three students out with a camera right so I was like so that's what the movie will be uh I'll have these three brothers and the one movie is the movie that takes place in their house and then they'll each have a girlfriend in Manhattan and those will be my other three short films so I kept thinking if it didn't work out I could have a 25 minute movie 50 minute movie 75 minute movie or a feature so you've actually backed into like you backed into this film with disaster in mind like reverse engineered the whole thing it's amazing that's a remark I've never heard that part of the of the of the myth if you will that's kind of how I laid out the script right and um you know so then uh there was an article in the ifp's old magazine the independent and they did an article on living in laws of gravity and I forget that maybe one of the Hal Hartley movies and they basically broke down those budgets and they were like I said earlier one was 23 one was 28 one was like 35 and I looked at that and I said based on my experiences with my student films I was like I think I can pull this McMullen script off for about 25 000. I think I'd get it in the can for 25. so my old man you know again my dad was a cop in New York I had a working class kid grew up with no money no Connections in the business we knew a lawyer and my convinced this guy to put together a limited partnership and we were going to sell five five thousand dollar shares to get the 25 Grand he knew a guy who works on Wall Street that guy gave him five grand and that's all we raised Yeah so basically uh we raised five thousand dollars I convinced my dad to give me about another four and I basically tell him and this guy with the nine let me just go and shoot together uh sort of a Sizzle reel a trailer and we'll use that to raise more money but I knew that I was going to try and shoot the entire film for nine thousand dollars that was my goal um so I set out I put an ad in backstage magazine that basically says you know uh no budget Indie non-union no pay but we'll feed you New York city so I probably got 2500 headshots look through all the headshots and then there's some you know great stories about you know how I was able to get some of these actors but you know the part of Molly the the older brother's wife probably Edition 15 20 actresses and I'm thinking to myself the script is terrible because the scenes that these uh young actresses are really just weren't playing um and um sitting behind the camera shooting her audition and I'm like oh my God this kid scenes aren't so terrible so Connie ends up being cast in the movie and throughout the production Connie was kind of like our um uh you know she was already we just knew like okay she's like really the super talented one here um you know when you're acting opposite her you better bring your A game and uh so so we get Connie in the movie The Other actors are all uh and like Connie nobody had ever been on a set before nobody had ever been in front of a camera before um and I set out to go uh make this film we probably shot about six days um over the course of maybe three weeks um and then I kind of run out of money um but I don't let the cast know that um and what I did we ended up shooting 12 days over the course of eight months and what I would do is I would save up some money from work I'd hit my dad up for a little bit of money a camera guy was working with um dick Fisher would say hey look uh I'm not working this Saturday and Sunday I have the camera buddy of mine is available to do Sam who can you get from the cast that's available and you know I would then go and say all right Jack and Mike are available let me see what scenes are still not shot and then the other crazy thing I did was it was you know we shot 16 millimeter right we couldn't afford to buy any new cans of films Oh short ends Jordans well and 16 not even super 16 but 16 short ends yeah yeah she just like leftover stuff from Industrials so um so it was cheaper for me to re-enroll in Hunter College for one class which I think was probably I don't know at the time probably 300 bucks um so I can get a student ID because for the short ends with your student ID with something like 25 off or something like that so I re-enroll in schools in order to get the cheaper price on the short ends but then of course when we can't afford to develop anything until we're done shooting so eight months after we get these 12 days done we develop stuff and then you know from short ends a lot of times some of that for that film has already been exposed so you know we may be editing a little bit easier when you do like okay well we're cutting that scene because we just don't have that scene so wait a minute so you had eight months that you had a bunch of film reels in your in your in your apartment after those first six days we're just you know dick says hey I'm free on this day I say great I go buy some film stock right I call the actors I come up with the the scenes we go shoot those two days and then it's like all right when are we gonna shoot again I have no idea but so how long were you with the movie in the can before you got it developed all right so after point then I then I got a random place named Dick Young and Bob Smith those are the two guys who ran it and to their credit they were real supportive supporters of indie film and young folks in New York trying to make it happen so you know my dad went down with me there and explained to them hey all doubts for Eddie but um you know he's got this film here's all the the film we'd love to get it processed can't pay for it all now but if you can defer those costs we'll slowly pay it off over time and they were generous generous enough so like almost like layaway and payment plan for for development that that world does not exist now you have to find some very special people I mean could you imagine though trying to shoot an indie film on 16 millimeter today on short ends like that's why for me and I've heard you talk about it as well it is so exciting right now if you're a young filmmaker that you can pick up this freaking thing your phone and go and make a feature that's going to look a hundred times better than Brothers McMullen look oh you know the lenses you can get the cameras you get I mean I shot a whole feature on a little pocket camera uh and just got vintage lenses and just went out and shot a movie in four days and it and it got into it it looks stunning projected at the Chinese Theater on a 2K upres stunning most beautiful thing I've ever shot and I've shot things with much bigger budgets and I was just this little 1080p camera it was just gorgeous so and now there's like four and 6K cameras in like the little pockets and this is it's ridiculous it's ridiculous so you you edit so you got get everything developed I'm gonna lay away it's [ __ ] great story uh I'll lay away then you're editing it I'm assuming what this is nice it's even crazier so yeah to Beta and uh they cut the show on beta so what me and dick would do is uh at the end of the night like if we had a movie we were the last people in the office we'd leave the side door of the office open when we left well next door to the Mayflower Hotel have a drink come back into the building at midnight and then edit till five in the morning using their um editing bays and then without without permission so always ask for forgiveness never for permission exactly so all right so you transfer everything to Beta um because I used to cut on tape as well on beta SP is there a film print of this that's not a transfer from video did you ever go back to the neg on anything yeah eventually did okay but but at first you just cut together a video edit of that and yeah did you color grade you did color grade that no there's no color grade whatever it was it was whatever it was it was no sound mix no nothing um other than you know we basically at the time we just borrowed all of this traditional Irish folk music from this musician named Seamus Egan um and I'll tell you the story of like the great ending that happened for Sheamus but at the time you know I couldn't afford a composer and I thought all right we'll just use needle drops from this guy and he was a friend of a friend of a friend so I knew that I could get to him eventually but at the time I was like I need music for the film right I have no idea what's going to happen with this movie and really when I make the film certainly you have the dream that maybe it'll get picked up for distribution but as I said earlier you know for five years I'm sending out my scripts I can't get even a phone call back from an agent we'll be right back after a word from our sponsor and now back to the show I'm hoping the film will be something of a calling card and that maybe nothing else would go to the Festival someone will see it and I'll get an agent um so uh we cut the film transferred to VHS at the time it's two hours long uh we're both exhausted I mean I know it's still a rough cut but you know it's your first film it's your baby I don't know what seems to cut so um I knock off a bunch of you know VHS copies of it and then I start the process of doing the same thing I'm pouring through the trades who are the agents who are signing for us not filmmakers um what are the film festivals what are the production companies and the distribution companies uh send it out everywhere film festivals a Year's worth of rejections um and then the you know the the famous story is the the Redford Sundance story right um you know I'm working at Entertainment Tonight Redford is there to do press for I believe it was quiz show um I I know that you know obviously Redford Sundance I take one of these rough Cuts with me um and I have my little you know 30 second speed feel uh rehearsed so that when he gets up with his PR person and usually you shoot these jump kits in a um in a big hotel so I know he's going to go out the main room I'll go out the second bedroom cut him off as he's getting into the elevator give him the Spiel hand him the tape and we'll see what happens so that's exactly what I do and he listens to me and he says um okay great well we'll have someone take a look at it and he hands it to his PR person in the elevator's door the elevator door is closed and that's it and I think well I guess you know you know I was kind of hoping he would want me to jump in the elevator and hear more about it and just take to take the private plane to his house and then you know all that stuff of course of course but two months later um at work um and I get a phone call from Jeff Gilmore who was the programmer at Sundance at the time and Jeff says hey Eddie so we're ahead we got this uh movie here it says it's a rough cut just want to know if you finished it I lie I say yes of course I did he says so this is a rough cut two hours what's the running time now I say 95 minutes because you know the Chipotle films the Woody Allen films are all roughly you know you know and uh he says well what what scenes did you cut and by this point now you know the movie's a year old so I've kind of seen it and I'm less in love with it so there's a handful of scenes I know I want to cut and then I just rip and name some other scenes and he says you know what actually that sounds pretty good all right we'll be in touch two weeks later they call up and they say you're in so now that's probably September so hold on a second when you get that call what is that I mean like I'm in the office and all of the guys that I work with you know the crew guys they will work on the movement you know like they've all done sound for me so they're you know like they know you know what we're doing with the editing machines so they're all going to be high fives and everybody's cheering and like I can't believe it holy [ __ ] you know our little Eddie our little Eddie's he made good he's he's gonna he's gonna go to the show that's exactly exactly what it was like so um so now though I have to raise another 25 Grand at a minimum to finish the film you know because it's cut on beta so I got to go back to the negative re-cut it right because yeah and blow it up to 35. and you know I've never done that before I don't know how to do that you know my student films that uh that I made I cut myself on a little like moviola um slicer you know we got to sync up your your your your mag sound to your picture and tape it together I was like you can't do that for a 95 minute long movie so um I I can't remember exactly how but um I'm put in touch with Ted Hope and James Sheamus a good machine and those are the guys who really you know quite honestly at that time took me under their wing uh they came on as producers uh and they helped me you know not only they taught me how to finish a film but Ted was really invaluable in the editing room with me you know I knew I knew 20 minutes I could cut out of the movie like that but that last ten uh was tough and he gave me two great bits of advice because look I'm telling you you don't need the scene and if the scene is so great use it in another one of your films needless to say the scene is never so good that you end up revisiting it wasn't in that case the other thing he said is um how many times have you walked out a movie and said that was a pretty good movie but that was that 20 minutes in the middle it was a little you know kind of dragged there because nobody ever walks out of the theater and says God it was a really good movie but it was too short he's like I'm telling you let's get this thing down to 95. we got a nice pre Breezy comedy here puts a smile on your face like get people in and out and I'm telling you they're going to enjoy it and it was I mean it was great great advice and that's what we did um so and the interesting thing was because we were up against the deadline for Sundance and I might have the dates exactly wrong you know but I had to fly to Sundance for the start of the festival and I don't know if they still do it but they would have like a filmmaker orientation you did with all the filmmakers this first couple of days um and our first screening is until four days after that Ted has to stay in New York because like he has to wait for the blow up to happen so do our this will blow up Ted grabs it that day goes to the airport gets on the plane flies to Sundance we screen the next morning at the Egyptian so I never even get to see the film projected Jesus Christ and then and then as as the legend goes then there's there's was there a bidding war for it um um we uh Tom Rothman at Fox Searchlight you know which was a brand new company McMillan was the first movie ever released um he uh he was at the first screening and again the funny thing is so they tell us like and maybe it was because of the Redford thing like there were 18 movies in and we were the 19th so even on my flight to Park City there was like an article listing all the movies and competition we weren't even mentioned so we were a little bit of the also Ram so you can imagine that that or that that feeling just like I'm I'm go it's are we are we there it's because you just can't pick up Bob and call Bob at this point phone to do anything like that right um so anyhow you know so we had a good crowd at the festival I again to my memory we did not have many buyers there other than uh Searchlight and at that screening um you know it's pretty great it's like the reaction is great got to meet a lot of people and a bunch of agents and managers and afterwards they've given you their business cards and like you gotta come out to play we got to do lunch and all that but you know Rothman was there and that night um over dinner before even our second screening we sold the movie two starts like and what the film I'm asking what was the the final sales for it we sold it uh for 250. oh Jesus you must have been ecstatic we were through the roof I mean we could not believe it Jesus um and we had some box office bumps built into that um that would have gotten us to a half million uh if the movie basically doubled clerks's domestic box office and I think Clarks at the time did 1.2 or something like that yeah that the movie would do two million they thought was an absurd notion like you'll never get there I mean yeah there's no stars in it it's you know is it twenty seven thousand dollars none of these movies did none of those little ones that we talked about you know they would do 400 500 600 Mariachi I think Mariachi with Columbia Pictures pushing it and put a million dollars in remastering it still only pulled in like a couple mil like two or three mil theatrically if I remember correctly so it wasn't like it was a blockbuster yeah I mean but yours was yes we ended up making you know it ends up doing 10 million dollars Jesus which is just you know just nuts but the the you know I was talking about the guy's a good machine and the other great bit of advice was from James Sheamus and he was like look Eddie when you're at the festival who knows if we're gonna sell the movie but I'm telling you like those 10 days you will never be hotter like there's a meeting frenzy that happens at the festival and you know and we see it every year you know these movies that sell for a ton of money at the festival that you know whether they weren't or not who cares like filmmakers are getting paid that's a good thing um but he's like you better have another screenplay in your hand because they will ask you what do you want to do next and if you could hand them a script and say I'm doing this next you'll get that thing green lit in a hurry so I quickly wrote basically what I thought was a funnier version of Brothers McMullen because we didn't really think we would sell Brothers McMullen right so that movie was she's the one and you know who often basically said what Sheamus said he was going to say what do you want to do next I said I want to do this here's the script but she's the one and within a week that was greenlit so you know I go out to LA for the first time in my life as a guy who sold the movie to Fox Earth site we'll be right back after a word from our sponsor now back to the show and now my second film green lit with a three million dollar budget and that is the again the lottery ticket that is absolutely the lottery ticket and I and I constantly if you've heard the podcast you know I've talked about it so many times that filmmakers think that that is that's the that's the plan like no dude that is not the plan Eddie he did not plan you didn't plan any of this it just you were just like dude if I get an agent out of this I'll be ecstatic I might you know my my producing partner Aaron Lewis you know uh he talks about it as the bullseye you know when we're making our micro budget movies you know we always talk about like the bullseye is not a business plan you know what I mean just because you know uh the big sick for example a more recent movie that went on to do really great businesses in the film work doesn't mean you know your film my film anyone's film is going to do that business like that is the bullseye uh you've got to come up with that's why I like I love your book when you talk about identifying the niche audience that you've got to find and really thinking about back then yeah you did not need to think about the audience in the same way because there were so few Indie movies being made I mean there's still there were hundreds but it's not like today no now there's a hundreds a day yeah it's it's no it's insane I trust me I know I talked to these guys every day I talk to filmmakers all the time and I'm seeing it because the the best in the world the best the good news is anyone can make a feature film the bad news is anyone can make a feature film it's it's it's there's a gluttony of product and yeah and that's and you know I mean I've spoken at film schools and film classes over the years and people bring that up why should you are there too many films and is it you know now that there's no barrier to entry you know I'm like hey what's the difference now it's the it's the equivalent of a kid who can pick up an acoustic guitar and just start writing songs right and he can throw them on to his you know however you would you know on your garage band on your laptop what's the harm in that like you know you can make a movie for a couple of thousand bucks now why discourage anybody from doing that because what may end up happening is someone is going to create that movie that is the equivalent to you know Bob Dylan kind of Reinventing sort of you know folk music or rock and roll in the mid 60s you know there will be a version of The Ramones that come from the indie film scene and someone who kind of just was like hey I only got five grand I'm gonna make this little movie and and I think the best the best advice I've ever heard about that because uh you know you're right you're absolutely right but it's about um finding that voice that thing that makes you special like Brothers McMullen was spawned from you dude like that's just such you're that's that's definitely something in your wheelhouse from your personal experience it meant something to you like I can't write Brothers McMullen I would write it based on stuff I've seen it's not something I experience but like my last movie I shot ego and desire which is about filmmakers trying to sell their movie at Sundance I could talk about that very clearly and I can talk about the pain and the suffering of filmmakers because that is something that's really in my perspective that's my voice and that's what filmmakers I think today they're like oh I'm gonna make a Brother's McMullen or I'm gonna make a mariachi or I'm gonna make a Reservoir Dogs I'm like no man you failed from the moment you started you got to do something that is really true to your own voice because that's the only kind of Secret Sauce we've got right to stand out no that's absolutely true and you know I mean I've told people like this you know I mean as you said I am one of the lucky ones right I got the the lottery ticket and it is still after 25 years and it was hard after three years you know once my third movie tanked at the box office you know it I it's back to pushing that giant boulder up the hill it has never gotten easier um uh and the only reason to stick with it is because you don't have a choice is because you love this thing so much you have to do it like if you want to do it for all the other reasons you think it's cool gig you want to be famous you want to make I don't know whatever those other reasons are forget about it it is too hard it is too filled with disappointment and constant rejection that you know it if you're not in it because you have no choice you know the movie gods have called you and they said hey man this is what you're doing like it or or you know yeah you're in it no matter what that's the deal no dude listen I've tried to I've tried to create I've tried to quit this crazy a bunch of times and I can't man I can't I've tried I've stepped out a bit for maybe a few years but my foot was always back in it I've literally tried to quit it's like a bad drug man like you can't you can't quit it because it's just something that is it's inside of you it's like you can't not be an artist it's so hard I look at all the films I made and I've made a couple that you know really just like they didn't work in any way right yeah critics didn't like them couldn't sell them when we finally sold them it was one of those terrible deals you speak about in your book you know the uh no Advanced partnership with the Shady Distribution Company does he have a cigar and he's like hey kid just give me a poster what here's the thing while making every one of those films I had a blast like you were on set working with these actors watching them bring your words to life and on every single film I've done I've met someone or worked with someone who has become either a lifelong friend or a lifelong filmmaking partner you know my Director of Photography a guy named will rexer he and I are I mean absolute best friends the first whom we did together as a movie probably never even heard of come looking for Kitty and we did on a walk because we wanted to shoot on that new Panasonic with the the oscillating glass filter which ones not the Panasonic tvx did you shoot it yeah yeah no you shot it on the dvx or you got the adapter so you got you got the doctor to put that oh yeah I've shot my first short on the dvx I edited Final Cut Pro four and you know at the time John's loss had a company uh what the hell are they called but they were doing a bunch of movies with that camera I think was it it was a movie with Katie Holmes yeah the the um uh Pieces of April Pieces of April that was sort of the biggest success of those but that was shot on that camera and they were doing these movies for uh 250 000 and they got a special agreement with the unions uh so you can make a union film for 250 with that camera as long as you abided by a certain things so I heard that I was like I'm all in Let's Do It um and we quickly wrote a script and we thought we'll just hire our friends we'll kind of improvise it the movie Just I mean it really just didn't work but the great thing is that's how I met well so um you know even though it's tough and it's brutal and filled with disappointment it's always kind of fun no it that's that's what this whole journey is about man it's about those relationships it's about those experiences and I think a lot of filmmakers make that big mistake of uh the end game like the the the the the what is the end game is it when the movie's finished is it when it gets sold is it when it gets to a festival like what is the moment where the end happens and if you're only looking for the end you're going to be disappointed constantly but if you're enjoying the ride then that's a career that's a life because you can I mean and that's something that I so admire about you and your career is that you seem to be just having a good time um connected to that and and that thing you're speaking about the the the journey you know um Aaron and I we made this movie in 2012 uh Fitzgerald's family Christmas yeah right and what we did with that was the idea I mean it's kind of a long story but I I acted in this movie with Tyler Perry who obviously very successful he's doing okay he's doing okay he's doing all right he says he's like you know those first two movies you made they were so successful and then you'd ever go back and do anything about Irish families again what because you got to Super serve your Niche so even to your point he's like I guarantee you the people that love those two movies would love another is an Irish family movie from you and then you know we would talk further like you know think about an evergreen title Christmas movie that's something that every year you can kind of hopefully resell so I kind of had this idea and I just made two other micro budget movies I made a movie called nice guy Johnny or you know in the camp at 25 Grand that's a good story about why I made that movie then we made a movie on the Canon 5D newlyweds got it in the camp at 9 000. so through those two films speaking of like uh you know movies you know we're kind of successful in the in the micro budget world but my casts were great and I found all these great young new actors in New York so I was like all right so if it's Geralds what I'm going to do is I'm going to bring my my new family of cast members and marry them to my old family of cast members that I work with Connie Britton Mike McGlone who plays the mom Anita Gillette um and so it was sort of like we bring the whole family of our all of our actors together um and make this movie uh so we make the movie for 250 000 All In we'll be right back after a word from our sponsor and now back to the show and um actually get what festival we're trying to get into we don't get in Aaron and I are devastated I'm now we're waiting for Toronto and everything is hanging on if we get into Toronto it's a whole new world for us like you know to get back to that level of a prestigious Festival we get into Toronto we're high-fiving you know we think it's going to be great we go to Toronto our screenings are great but what doesn't happen is you know we don't sell the movie for millions of dollars you know we are not the McMullen story of Toronto we're another one of the movies that played at a big Festival and as we're getting on the plane to fly home to New York I was like you remember the like the endless like weeks of anticipation leading up to did we hear from Toronto did we get in yeah I was like anything different today than on that last day when we wrapped nothing not a single thing is different so why do we get obsessed with the idea of you know getting into these festivals it's great it's fun but really at the end of the day the filmmaking experience was a blast we worked with all of our friends the outcome really and I know people say oh that's [ __ ] and I don't believe that you don't you know you you don't look at your you know uh your reviews or care about the box office I'm telling you after 26 years it's nice when the good stuff comes but we really don't it's like we just know hey whatever happens good or bad another 18 months from now we'll have another script done and we'll figure out how to make you know we'll try and get six million to do it if we can't do that and figure out the you know 200 000 version of the movie um and that's and that's only someone who's uh who's got a couple of Grays in there with in their in their in their in their beard that can say things like that trust me I've got a couple myself so it's it's the gray beards thing is that but when you're 20 you can't you don't you don't grasp that yet when you're when you're young you just don't grasp because you just haven't been down the road yet so I hope people who are in their 20s are listening to these two old farts talking I don't mean to speak for you sir but this so far yeah so you know these two old farts talking about the olden days um but there's a reason why um what is it there's a saying in my wife's Colombian and she she has a saying a Spanish saying that says uh the devil is more of the devil not because he's the devil just because he's just been around for a long time and it's it's something like that translates into that and it's uh it's so true it's like you just know because you just been around long now I have to ask you though when you jump from McMullen to she's the one that's a slight budget difference um and also a slight cast difference as far as The Prestige of the actors you were dealing with because I know Cameron uh Cameron Diaz was in it um and obvious and Jen and Jennifer Aniston was in it was Jen was just starting was friends friends was still a thing at that point right or not yet so yeah it's funny like nobody was a star yet so Jennifer had I think it was it was after the first season of friends yeah so you know she's an actress on a sitcom and granted this is Tom's very successful but it isn't like friends whoever would have been the big you know female movie star at that time right um you know and she came in and auditioned and was great and you know I mean like uh and just crushed the part Cameron was in the mask at that time you you know so again no one you know Cameron Diaz wasn't a household name by by any stretch she was oh she's the girl from the bask right you know a couple years later Something About Mary different deal introducing like two actors who you know an actress who kind of was the runner-up to Jennifer's part and the actress who was sort of my second choice for Cameron's part we end up casting in the movie and that was uh Leslie Mann and Amanda Pete we're also in that movie um so the real the the heavy hitter that we had at the time like the actor to be intimidated by is that really a really first time director it was John Pony yeah you know um and I knew John Mahoney from eight man out and Moonstruck yeah he's legend legend so how do you do so as a as a quote-unquote first time filmmaker like in a professional environment how do you handle dealing with the I mean the I mean obviously you didn't have any giant movie stars you were dealing with you had professional actors like seasoned professional actors how was that adjustment from no money over 12 months with short ends to now on a three million dollar budget and a little bit more breathing room I did two things one the adjustment to working with the actors I I would say really wasn't much of an adjustment because nobody had a ton of experience we were all the same age you know we're all just kids in our 20s doing it you know what I mean it wasn't like I was working with like Nick Nolte and you know like a bunch of seasoned vets we're all a bunch of kids making an indie movie in New York so it was like we're just hanging out and became friends so there was no real intimidation Factor um on set with the actors where I was truly intimidated was like walking on descent day one we had a scene at the airport at JFK we got half the terminal closed you know there's 150 people there that are my crew now granted I've met my department heads we've been through pre-production together you know I have good relationships with them but when you you know step onto the set and 150 people look at you and you're 27 years old and they're like all right what's first up and they're like okay here we here we go when the when the dial when the dolly grip has has shot probably 70 or 80 features and they're looking and I had to believe when you walked in at 27 you know that some of these crew guys were like this son of a [ __ ] how did this guy get this and did you get that Vibe on some of this stuff [Music] there was probably some of that but it's funny when you mentioned the dolly group was it was a tough old guy named Huff of course his name was Huff we didn't say two words to me for about the first two weeks but eventually you know I uh I think I want him over you broke you broke them down you broke them down I've had when I was when I was that young directing on big sets uh doing my commercials and stuff I would the same thing man you'd walk in these guys are just like who's this like they have to smell you for the first like half day before like oh does this guy even know what he's doing but the fun thing from that is uh there was a PA on that film her name Stuart Nikolai and I'm so I'm 27 at the time he's probably 23. it's his first gig in the film business out of college and he works in the location Department what now he's been my location uh main location scout on you know I did a public I did a TV show a couple years ago called public morals we're doing now bridging tunnel so you know again back to the relationships thing you know he's a PA who's my age we become friends you know I ended up you know he worked on uh uh sidewalks of New York so over time you know as he kind of moved up the rung he then became sort of my locations guys so and you never know who you you're not gonna meet along the way look at that like the PA guy yeah I was talking to somebody the other day it's like the PA on no it was Scott Scott was uh Scott Moser was saying the the PA on Mall Rats ended up getting him the job or introducing him to the job that got him the Grinch well he just directed The Grinch the animated feature and it was just because of that relationship he was just cool and they stuck together but if he would have been a dick to him back then that's it there was no there's no game um now the one thing I out of all of our out of all those contemporaries that you had in that time period in the 90s um I think and remind me if I'm wrong you're the only one that became also a full-fledged actor as well was there I know Santino pops in and out but like you know you go off and act alone and don't direct everything you act and so you were one of those guys you have a unique perspective on this because uh after she's the one you worked on another little independent film called Saving Private Ryan um with an unknown director Mr Spielberg at the time dude what was that like man like I'm just being on that show and watching I mean the master work yeah so I mean as you can imagine as a so I all right so well first up it was like for me it was graduate film school and I was very lucky you know when we were sort of uh uh probably two days before shooting when we're doing sort of our our Show and Tell and showing him what we look like in our uniforms and how we handled the weapons and all that um I said you know I hope you don't mind if it was shooting if I could just you know kind of hang out look over your shoulder it's like Eddie whatever you want to go like just you know you're in this movie you're welcome to you know stay on set all day long if you want um so I took advantage of that and you know used it as an opportunity to go to graduate Film School um and uh it's funny you know you mentioned before like showing up on the set if she's the one and and you know the the intimidation and also working with actors and I will say on that film and uh and probably I did it on McMullen I'm sure as well I thought the role of the director was to be directing the actors all the time we'll be right back after a word from our sponsor and now back to the show so after a take I'd say cut and then I thought I had to have some notes and I said oh maybe try doing it this way I tried doing it that way or could you give me some of this or give me some of that um which still work you know we got a gang of us on that it wasn't so there's some okay for this you know five of us and for almost two weeks he calls action and cut and that's it and we do three takes and moving on we start thinking he hates us he thinks we're terrible uh I've been waiting for the new pages of the script to show up to discover that we're all gonna die long before we find you know Matt Damon right um uh and then finally we have a day where is I can't Eddie come on over here I need you to try and do this and you know Adam you know to Adam Goldberg you know wow I just kind of feel like you're rushing through this maybe slow it down and so it gives us all these notes and you know at lunch that day you know of course why do you think you gave us the notes today so once we go over them we talk to him he says you know we ask him and he said well today you didn't know what the hell you were doing he's like look I hire professionals I assume that you've done your homework and that you show up in the morning prepared so I'm not going to jump on you after your first take and uh sort of hurt your confidence by suddenly giving you a note I assume it's going to take you three or four takes to find your way into it now some actors can get it on the first day can slowly fall apart but he's like I got an ensemble here with some scenes where I got five guys you know all talking I sit back and I let you do it and I'll let you figure it out and you know for two weeks you did until today so today I stepped in and that absolutely changed my Approach next movie I made sidewalks of New York and and granted I was you know I work at Stanley Tucci and Dennis Farina and uh you know Rosario Dawson which is you know probably a second movie um but on that film that's what I did I was just like I'm gonna sit back and let them show me what they've prepared you know and I you know you work with someone like Stanley you know the first take he does it the way that it's scripted the second take he kind of plays with it a little bit and then he sees the York giving him room to play and then he kind of really does his thing and you're like thank God I did not step in early and give him a note because now he feels so comfortable and he's just giving me all of this great material and that's the way it works I I very rarely give any direction now unless an actor is sort of taking it off into a Direction that's completely wrong you know I mean the big one I do because um you know I kind of do these talking New York movies is speed up the pace you know my New York actors kind of get the the Cadence of how I how I want the characters to speak uh sometimes other actors need to um to just uh speed it up a little bit and that's it was that the biggest lesson that you is that the biggest lesson you learned watching him Direct uh then and I guess the second one was um if something that he has pre-planned doesn't work he doesn't beat the dead horse you know like we had a pretty complicated Steadicam shot where I was trying to link a bunch of us together and he probably did it about four or five times and I could tell him and Giannis the uh DP it just weren't happy with it and you know I mean like it's a big it's a big scene you know there's squibs going off and stuff and he's like yeah just give me a minute just give me a minute and he kind of goes off and he takes you know five or ten minutes he's looking at the scene and he goes okay scratch what we did I got a new way to shoot it and we took a totally different approach into the scene uh we did a scene with the dog tags where um we shot it as scripted before lunch and it was another one of those scenes where he just stands like ah I don't like it it's just I'm not happy with it pull this all together at once he goes guys do me a favor just improvise something here uh I just want you to rip for 20 minutes go through the dog tags and you know the funny story is in doing that I read off a bunch of dog tags and I name a bunch of guys that I went to grammar school with and they had um you know the I forget what writer was on set that day but they recorded the The Improv and then from that they rewrote the screen the that scene and we shot sort of a new version of it after lunch um so hey the good thing was I got to plug all my buddies names in the movie and it's still there Mike Cesario arianico and Vinnie Rubino um so they love that right to be okay can you imagine like you're sitting in the room you're sitting there going you're sitting I didn't tell any of them so they're sitting in the theater like what the [ __ ] um so uh but anyhow like that was a very valuable lesson too like you know in your gut I'm sure you can speak to this as a filmmaker you have to trust your gut like you know when it doesn't work when it's not funny or it just you know it feels whatever your gut is telling you that and a lot of times you just you know you're afraid to make that kind of change on set because you know it's at stake right it's money it's time um and seeing Stephen with with a movie that big it was scheduled to shoot 66 days we wrapped in 58. that's how efficient the filmmaking is Jesus Christ man so uh you know the other thing was you know we shot all handheld available light sometimes two and three cameras going for a dialogue scene so you know the movie I make after that sidewalks of New York not only did I steal the directing style but that's how I came up with the pseudo doc style I was like he's shooting this like an independent movie We're banging through scenes here because the camera is on you know the the operator shoulder uh we're shooting available light people are overlapping dialogue I was like all right that's my next Indie movie I'm doing a pseudo DOC for that very reason yeah and I shot my last phone Minnesota and honestly watching all of your DVDs because you are so generous with your commentaries reading your book which by the way if anyone has not read independent Ed you gotta I I read this thing front the cover to cover before I made my first features and I listen I literally went out and bought every available DVD if it had a commentary I got I got the special edition McMullen and she's the one I got and you that whole style of like just getting out and going to do it like newlyweds I was just like you know what that's that I can do I can go out and do that because as filmmakers you get like especially if you you know especially if you are a professional filmmaker who's maybe done commercials maybe work the bigger budgets or worked in posts and there's a there's kind of you get up your own ass in a way because you're like oh I need a red I need an Alexa I need I care for less than seven million like these are the kind of things that you tell yourself and then when you bust out like newlyweds you know and you're like wait a minute I got that gear I can go do this too like screw it let's let's go and build something um it was extremely inspirational man and that's and that's one of the big things about your career that I followed over the years man is that you have no need to go back and make a nine thousand dollar movie you have no need to go make a quarter million dollar movie you don't need to do that you you could have very comfortably kept acting maybe get it one one movie every four or five years that's four or five million or six million or something like that uh do some TV show there's no need for you to go back and do Indies but you keep going back and that's that respect for the for that indeed that Indie you never left the Indie Roots you know you go and play in the big budget stuff no question but you come back and that's like there's no other I can't think of many other filmmakers of your of your generation that does that so man thank you for keep doing that and inspiring us well I mean it goes back to a it's fun right I just like you know and you've done some bigger budget stuff so you know what it can be like sometimes to deal with you know and I have plenty of friends who work in the studio business and they're great people and they're easy to work with but it's a different process you know look I talk about sort of the uh times when Aaron and I will sit down and be like okay [Music] we'll talk about our two lists of compromises and the two lists of compromises we work off of are sort of okay and we're gonna have to go ask someone for money whether it's a million two million 10 million there are certain compromises that are going to come with that money a is they will fully expect to have a say in a lot of the decisions um you know starting with title of the movie some notes on the script who you're going to cast if you're going to ask someone for five million dollars at 10 million dollars whether it's a studio or um some uh Indie financing uh they are absolutely going to give you a list of names that you need to cast from in order to get that money um the other thing is uh when you do get one of those actors and you've got your 10 million dollars the good news is you're gonna have a much easier time selling that movie you've got a big bold-faced name on your on your poster which is going to excite the folks at Netflix or wherever right we'll be right back after a word from our sponsor and now back to the show so that's one set of compromises the other set of compromises are the ones well it's like okay we're gonna make a movie for twenty five thousand dollars and you know here are the compromises we know we're gonna have to make we're not going to get a star okay um we're not going to get all the locations we want we're going to have to be down and dirty odds are we're not going to make any money you know our fees are going to be sort of uh coming on the back end of the movie's successful um and we know it's going to be almost impossible to sell so what do we want to do this year you know like do we actually want to go make a movie which is the 25 000 version or do we want to spend the next two to three years trying to get that big name a just trying to get the money then trying to get the actor and then trying to get that movie up and running and that is never a six-month process that is never a 12 month long process that is several years of your life and that's the one thing I want people to understand because a lot of people look at you and you're like oh it's Ed Burns he could just call up a buddy of his that he's worked with and just like hey can you yeah Tom Tom Hanks can you come by and do my twenty five thousand dollars and they just think that you can because you're in the system and you've been in the system you've had success that you can just make things happen and the more I talk to filmmakers in the space Oscar winners and super it's the same story for all of them other than Mr Spielberg and even then he had to go to India to get money for Lincoln like it still was a challenge for him everyone filmmakers still have to travel still have all the same problems different levels but still the same thing it's I mean it just is never easy and now look if you're making a certain type of film uh I don't want to say that that's easier but you know there are certain films that you know that let's say are more obviously commercial you know I was a kid when I'm in film school you know I'm full I I am not the guy who is falling in love with Star Wars and wanting to go make those kind of films I did not love action films you know I mean I loved Last Picture Show and tender Mercy's in the HUD and I wanted to make you know small little dramas or I love you know films like The Graduate the world according to GARP and like I said to Bo Woody Allen I want to make you know talky comedy dramas um man there's you know that that the the marketplace for those films um has all but disappeared so you know I I you know I if I wanted to call Tom Hanks you know it would probably I'd have a much easier time getting him if I had a sort of big budget idea movie as opposed to one of my talking little films right so packaging together a bigger movie it would probably be a little easier for you but yet there's still higher dolls and things you're gonna have to do is scheduling years and you know a lot of your good friends you know people you've worked with who you've got a relationship with it still takes you know who are big movie stars they still don't get back to you for six months you know especially like you know because you're trying to get them attached to raise your money right yeah six million dollar offer here like forget about Burns's script all right go to work right exactly and then you still gotta jump through those hoops and they're scheduling issues and there's agents there's like look I I know Eddie it's doing his thing but there's six million bonds right here let's go let's go he's he's still trying to find his money and that's the thing I want filmmakers to understand that there is no magic key there's no there's no end of the rainbow that we all still have to deal with that even at at the level that you're dealing with um and the kind of a success that you've had in your life in your career like when you just said that you're like yeah that screws Cruz burns his script I got six million dollars right here go with this I've seen those conversations I've been part of those conversations in agents really like yeah son of them like it's so hard I mean unless they're like your wife or your brother and even then they're like look man I love you and all but I got 10 million dollars to go do this other movie right yeah and look you know I mean plenty of actors will do it but typically it is you know their passion project right when they're gonna go cut their feet to go do something a lot of times and you know as well they should you know it's like they don't necessarily want to help you make your passion project they've got that script they've been sitting on for years and they're slowly putting it together and trying to get the financing together so um so it's something that you talk about in your book which is Brothers McMullen 2.0 um can you break down what brothers in the bond 2.0 because it's something that I used extensively in my last two features okay so yeah so you know I I I'll back up a little bit because it's kind of interesting how my career kind of is panned out right so I for my first four films you know it's McMullen she's the one a movie called No Looking Back which really didn't do well in sidewalks of New York they all did you know pretty well and I credit that to the fact that I'm still a kid a screenwriter who believed in outlining before he wrote his scripts I still am a student of the game I am not so arrogant to think that I don't need to go back and kind of you know play within a three-act structure and really kind of have a an outline that's that's airtight before I sit down to write right after that I decide for whatever reason you know whether it's laziness or arrogance um I stop outlining and then I make four movies I make and these are the four you probably never heard that or maybe you have most people would and it's Wednesday looking for Kitty the groomsmen and purple violence right all four movies get terrible reviews all four movies don't work at the box office and then after that I am in director's jail like I really I have my next script um and for about two years I can't get it financed I'm having a very tough time getting actors attached you know at first we were looking for eight million then six to four then two then we're down to like 1.2 and Aaron and I have a meeting in the Hollywood Hills some guy's house and again you know you talk about the Galaxy cigars sticking out inside one of those deals and still they're kind of telling me how I need to make this movie can I go back to the hotel I'm staying in in L.A and we have a drink at the bar and I'm like it's over man like how did this happen like you know it wasn't that long ago I was the guy who made burgers McMullen and now we're up here and this guy's telling us we gotta rewrite the script based on his notes for a million dollars I said it's over man we are in director's jail and over those beers we're kind of joked around like how is it that when I was 24 I was able to write The Brothers McMullen and with no connections and no money and I didn't know how to make movies I was able to make a movie that was you know still to this day my most financially successful film I was like or then he was like well why don't we just do that again so they're on the napkin at the bar we came up with McMullen 2.0 which was basically the rules were how we made McMullen and we wouldn't uh divert from that so 25 000 to get into the can 12 days of shooting three-man crew all unknown actors All actors had to bring their own uh wardrobe how to do their own hair and makeup and every location we had to get for free all right so that was basically those were the rules and the next day we sat down um and we started oh and we said and we have to do an outline so you learned a little you learned a little bit of those last four movies yeah um and you know um we uh we both loved The Graduate um and you know I remember we were talking about the movie Sideways uh which we both loved we're like all right let's just it'll be two guys let's just start with two guys and we just started riffing and over time and turned into a a kid and his uncle instead of two best friends but you know and that's why I think for people like if they don't know what to write or they kind of have an idea uh but they they they they need you know sometimes it's okay to go look at one of your favorite films and almost start to tell your story within the framework of their story right like you could look at you know I know uh let's say I'm Brothers McMullen I at a certain point when I was hitting the wall I looked at Hannah and her sisters and I was like oh okay I see what he's doing here he's kind of weaving those three stories together and then they come together it seems to be every 15 pages in The Script all right so let me I gotta cut and paste this scene and move it there so that's a very valuable tool I think if you're a young screenwriter because you know even if you rip off the structure of your favorite film for your first draft you're gonna do you should do you know 20 25 drafts of your script by the time you do those 25 drafts you know uh it would be unrecognizable if you're if you're playing with some structure stuff um so anyhow um uh what was it oh 2.0 um so that's what we did we just started outlining and you know grip maybe in six months and then so let's go do it we'll be right back after a word from our sponsor and now back to the show and then you it was the first one on 2.0 was that nice guy Johnny that was a nice guy Johnny yeah and that was 25 grand um and then that did well right that actually well well we knew you know the other thing that happened was the movie that I spoke about that didn't do well purple violence right um that was a movie it was actually okay that movie um we couldn't get uh we were offering a couple of um distribution offers but again like your book talks about it was really bad deals you know there was no chance that our investor was going to get any of her money back if we went with that and it would be your typical New York La one screen if we do decent maybe they'll give us a few other markets but we we could see the writing on the wall at that time iTunes had just launched uh they had the music for a couple years but they just launched the movie sort of page of it I was starting to watch a lot of movies on iTunes so I was like all right why don't we go to iTunes and we'll maybe they'll release us as their first ex all exclusive feature film and because it was a new basically a new bit of business of them there on theirs uh they said yes approval rods was the first movie ever released exclusively on iTunes for transactional for transactional for a transaction yeah it's money back okay so if we make a movie for twenty five thousand dollars all in 125 with post based on what purple violets did we know we're going to you know we're going to make some real money here so that was the plan and it did so so for everyone listening though what year was this this is uh 2009 to 2010 is when it comes out okay so that's 10. it is does not exist anymore so everyone's listening like I'm gonna do what Ed Burns did like nope nope t-vod for independent films is essentially dead unless you can drive traffic um the the the finding you on iTune thing is gone um quickly you know we agree at Distributing that title but because you know we're really the first one sort of embracing iTunes we're getting a banner on the landing page like when you go to iTunes it was like nice guy Johnny you know we were we ended up being the number fourth most rented title from one of the months that was out it was unheard of so nice guy Johnny did very well then yeah nice guy doing it very well yeah right and then did as well and right and then and then you did your then you did a movie called newlyweds which was 9000 which was you know when I saw that I was just like wow this is it's an apartment it's on the street he's stealing all the locations you know it's just like yes yes yes and it just and that one did extremely well as well right yeah so um we finished Johnny we had a blast doing it and then we you know we turned it around real quickly and we saw that it was it was working um I had just read an article about people who were shooting commercials on the 5D so literally that day I jump on the train I go up to b h on 34th Street I buy the 5D I call my DP will I say look I just bought this 5D I saw this thing why don't we shoot a scene tomorrow to see if this thing works right so I had kind of an idea of something I wanted to do I quickly wrote a scene I called my buddy who owns a gym I was like we need to come over to your gym I'll be there for an hour and we basically and I said like I'll play this personal trainer and we'll shoot one half of the phone conversation as just a camera test and that scene is in the movie of course it is you never never waste not what not well and we you know we dumped it into you know my desktop computer after we shot and like that holy crap that looks good okay let's do it so I just started writing then and with um you know you when you reached when you um picked up my book and you kind of found me you were looking for distribution help and self-distribution help what has stopped have you have you gone down the self-distribution route just yet because there's a couple movies that I've uh summertime and beneath the blue Suburban Skies that are to my knowledge I looked I can't find them they haven't been released yet what are you doing with self-distribution have you tried self-distribution because I think you would be an amazing candidate for it yes I'll tell you so summertime we actually did finally sell and we're in the process of closing that deal so I don't want to talk about it just yet fair enough um but um you know putting the blue Suburban Skies is one of my favorite films that I've made Jennifer really plays the lead I mean she is so terrific we shot uh you know we shot on the red um you know we shot in color but we knew we were gonna turn it into black and white so we'll lit it according for that so it's in black and white um a couple of years ago I became obsessed with ozu Japanese filmmaker from the 50s and 60s um so you know I mean at another time we'll talk about that film because we had shot the entire film on on a 40. we use one lens uh the camera never moves for the entire film until the very last shot of the movie right every shot is a still photograph um yeah I mean a real interesting exercise in sort of discipline um you know again I fell in love with his style and did all this research I was like kind of like with the 5D I was like I want to try this this is kind of an interesting way to make an indie movie so that movie went to Toronto we got one of the best reviews I've ever got hit and so it's just been sitting on the shelf but that is the movie that we were thinking Hmm do I you know do we try some form of self-distribution I don't want to talk about the budget no no no no I don't tell you what the budget is but isn't a I'm assuming it's not it's under 10 million dollars let's just call it that it's it's an under 10 I always tell people it's under 10 million bucks it's under it's like 30 black drama where the camera doesn't work right that's that sounds very really happy with me I think I think financially uh that's a smart move I'm just saying it's true it's rude it's rude I'm just saying um okay um we'll talk later about that um now you also do you you worked on a great show called mob City for another Master Frank darabotman is there anything you learned from him as far as storytelling because I'm everybody knows on the show I'm obsessed with Shawshank Redemption and Green Mile for that matter I just it's like it's just one it's my remote throwaway movie uh if it's on done just keep going down that road did you I mean you worked with him obviously closely in the film yeah on the show what did you did you learn any lessons that you can share that's interesting you know uh I mean I love frank loved working with him he's a great guy um his style is so different from what I do and how I learned how to make movies you know like we're talking before like I only know from not having enough money and having to compromise right and figure learning how to Pivot and they're like Oh you mean we can't have that location okay we'll shoot it on the street corner that act is not available let's quickly rewrite you know Frank does not work that way I mean like so I think what I learned from him is you know he fights for his vision um you know if I let's say if I have a weakness uh you know I'm sure a number of weaknesses as a filmmaker but one of the big ones is I I'm not willing to fight for certain things because I know there's an alternate way to do it um and there are times where I look back and think like you know what I should have actually thought maybe that's why it turned out so good maybe you don't always have to Pivot um Frank never picks you know he like he has in his head and from hell or high water he is going to make that happen um so uh so you know and and again I then from that experience you know a guy named Michael Wright uh ran TNT at the time I meet Michael on the set of that and that's how I end up making my show for TNT public morals um and then Michael now runs epics which is how I ended up making bridge and tunnel for epics yeah so public morals was your first uh introduction basically to uh being a creator of a show and you wrote the show you act in the show you direct did you directly you didn't direct all the episodes right or I wrote directed all the episodes so you wrote a Jesus Christ man that's a hell of a schedule to do as a TV like you're writing you said there is no writer's room you're the writer you're the director and you're the actor in television that's obscene uh it's an obscene I wrote everything beforehand like I did before I mean yeah you're not writing as you're shooting obviously but still it's still a tremendous amount of work um and it's gorgeous I mean I saw parts of that show when it came out and it was gorgeous man it's beautifully shot it was so much fun we we suddenly had money you know we're still used to making things on on these lower budgets right budgets are significant and you know will and I were just in all of our Glory it was like oh boy we finally get to play with the camera we'll be right back after a word from our sponsor and now back to the show toys capturing an image you know yeah it was a blast and then and now your new uh your new show bridge and tunnel uh how did that come to be and and I know you shot did you shoot this during covet right not during cover yeah so yeah so how did that come to me um so I had dinner with Michael uh Michael Wright a couple of years ago he had probably just taken over epics and he was looking for you know a a half hour escape from the toxic news cycle uh and from you know a lot of the great shows that are on television can be you know pretty dark and depressing so he's like look we need something half hour put a smile on your face something nostalgic something period um you know could you give me something that's sort of totally like Brothers McMullen uh only about a group of guys like a diner and I said okay I like that idea but maybe instead of six guys why don't they make it three guy and three girls I kind of you know I mentioned before the graduates one of my favorite films and always had an idea for a film I didn't think it would be a TV show about you know a bunch of kids the day after college graduation and you come home you're back in your parents house you have to get reacclimated to living at home after being gone for four years reacclimated to you know all of your friends who are also home and you know how does that pecking order re-establish itself you know a lot of times people talk about like that night at the bar before Thanksgiving you know everyone comes together it's like the old order kind of reestablishes itself um uh but I was also very interested like the time period in New York that I've always been obsessed with and of course you're never obsessed with you know your era mine was the late 70s early 80s in New York you know you got the birth of punk and Hip-Hop and new wave and the art scene and the fashion scene and the scenes so I was thinking like that living so I that's another one where I kind of re-engineered the store think about where these would be in three years as they were in that world and then kind of took them back three years to be like so season one is sort of establishing the kid Jimmy I'm gonna have end up as a photographer in the Fashion World he's a kid who's you know just returned from school and he's a photographer uh Jill his girlfriend is gonna end up in the fashion world and she's just graduated from fit the studying design um so that's kind of that was sort of where the the ideas came from and we were supposed to be Eight Episodes uh I wrote eight scripts uh and then covered hits or I'm writing kind of leading up to coven and it comes to the point where it's like they're gonna pull the plug on the show um if we if you know uh production doesn't open up again production opens up and we have all the code protocols and we lose basically a fifth of our budget um to the code of protocols testing three times a week you know uh additional you know sort of nurses on set you know uh shorter days trying to pull as many of your interior scenes to be exterior scenes and then we find out that the city is not issuing film permits and half the show takes place in Manhattan so then I have to go back and so then I got to turn Eight Episodes into six and cut out probably a fifth of the cast and make all these stories work in these characters backyards and front Stoops and in the local bar um and in an odd you know talk about pivoting and being able to do that yeah in an odd way um you know it turned it into a different Channel but I think uh you know for season one it's a better show because I didn't have all the let's say the bigger incident that Manhattan and their lives in Manhattan would have given me so I really had to go in be like okay this has to be a character study now a little slower um but I got to be able to make these scenes work if you got like you know three guys sitting on their front stoop uh talking about their love lives but but it seems like you were but it seems like you had been um like you your entire career has been building up to that moment because you are so used to not doing things and pivoting and and not doing things with money and pivoting and having to shift things around uh you know someone who might have only been able to play 100 million dollar budgets will wouldn't that was well that's the end of that but you were able to adjust and pivot and move um so you all the all those tools you've put in your toolbox over your career helped you on on a show a network show still um it really was like you know I mean I'm I'm talking to all my friends who are my department heads and we're you know everyone was feeling like I was like we want to go back to work you know and I was like if epics is willing to do this then I will figure out a way to do it because we all just needed to get out of the house and set and jobs and jobs for people too so I mean it really was it was just a blessing my cast you know you know great young kids who were totally I mean they had a blast together but they were so responsible we got through the whole thing without anyone getting sick so that's amazing that's amazing um so what's up next for you man what are you doing next I think we're looking good for season two so I think that's I'm gonna start writing and now I'm you know I mean it looks like hopefully um we'll be able to take these characters into Manhattan pick it up a year later it'll be July of 1981 so you know the band will be at cbgb's and the kids will be dancing in the nightclubs and yeah it'll be fun dude I was I was I was raised in New York so I'm a New Yorker originally so um uh Queens Jamaica Queens okay so I was I was uh I was raised I was raised in New York and then I finished off in in Florida and then out here but um but I was from New York until 85. so from 76 let's say 76 to 85 and I was born in Florida but that time period I remember New York my dad was a Cabbie and he would he took me in I dude the days he would take me I would sit in the front and the stuff I saw as running through Manhattan and I remember break dancing would hit and all of that kind of stuff it was it's hard for people to understand what it was like late 70s early 80s it to be a New York man um I'm looking for it I'm looking forward to seeing that show now I really wanna you'll dig it and this track is incredible stop sure yeah I'll ask you a few questions ask all of my guests if you could go back in time and tell yourself your younger self one thing what would that be huh all right I you know what um the advice I would give myself is no one is keeping score don't sweat your failures so much don't be Pro overly precious yeah about every little decision you know there were some opportunities maybe I could have had uh that I just I was overthinking it and thinking oh you know this isn't the right movie for this time even though I kind of love the script and what I was doing and wanted to do it so you know again looking back on 26 years later who cares nobody cares if you had you know these successes in these failures like it really it's it so doesn't matter um so I've been able to you know pretty much make a lot of movies over that time but I kind of look at those chunks in my career where I didn't and I was so hung up on it's got to be the right next thing and isn't it isn't it just like filmmakers to think that everyone's watching us and everything that we do is so important and it's just a thing that I mean we I do it every filmmaker does it and you're right it'll stop you it'll paralyze you it'll paralyze it great advice um now what advice would you give a filmmaker trying to break in today well look I I mean I mean you've got it earlier I I just you know you you you you you absolutely should pick up the camera and go make that movie um uh you can do it now uh at such a low budget that if it's terrible kind of like all of the terrible screenplays I wrote you don't need to share with anyone like the storm writer who's got you know tapes filled with all of the half finished terrible songs uh you don't have to let anyone listen to it so go make the movie learn from your mistakes I mean that's the great Advantage I think filmmakers have now is they can have a process where you're learning you know in the way that a poet a novelist a painter a songwriter can that was never afraid of afford it to filmmakers before the last five years so filmmakers can go out and make short films they can make low budget features that don't sort of bankrupt um so that's what I would say and uh what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film business or in life we'll be right back after a word from our sponsor and now back to the show [Music] like I now uh you know and look quite honestly not to blow smoke up your ass but that's how I discovered your podcast right you know I'm trying to figure out what don't I know about the indie film Biz as far as like how to self-distribute a film and that's how I discovered you uh I'm constantly picking up new books on screenwriting you know and then someone who's written the book and now I'm I've become obsessed with those master classes so you know and and the other thing is you know I've listened to all of them and uh you know I would say for for every you know I mean there's certain filmmakers and screenwriters we're telling you no no it's got to be done this way don't do that you have to show don't jump we'll be right back after a word from our sponsor and now back to the show [Music] from those things that you know that think that that might work for you but there is no one set of rules to do this fortunately otherwise you know you and I are both not here all right you know so but that's what that would be the the thing I'd say just just you you should always remain a student of the game you know you can watch that first timers film and see something in that you never would have thought of where you're like oh you know what I never would have thought to attack that scene from that angle that's something interesting like oh like I mean I bring up ozu you know uh I never I hadn't even heard of him we didn't study him in film school for whatever reason I was listening to another podcast and uh uh Brian De Palma was on and he had written a book about uh transcended Transcendental Meditation yeah uh um but filmmaking right um story time I forget the name of the book but he made that movie last year or two years ago with Ethan Hawke um about the priest right yeah yeah yeah I'm doing press for that film so I bought the book I read that that turns me on to ozu I go deep on ozu I watch everything he's got and then I'm like oh it's a new style of filmmaking I've just discovered and you know the filmmaker was making his movies and you know in the 50s so approach to uh to a film so and three of your favorite films of all time my Texas trilogy [Music] mercies without habitable or Donovan just picked a show Paul Newman's HUD you know two of them were written by Larry McMurtry as one of my favorite novelists so those are my my three big ones and then you know I mean uh I'm a New York guy and I you know I love gangster films so Godfather one and two and Goodfellas you know that's my it's my Holy Trinity of you know of just badass you know the best there is of the gangster genre brother man I I really do appreciate you coming on the show man it has been an absolute pleasure and honor talking to you man and thank you for the years of inspiration uh to us all us Indie filmmakers out here trying to hustle it out and trying to make it happen man you have been a great inspiration since you came out with Brothers McMullen and you've continued to feed the the community with your books and your commentaries and everything else so thank you again man I really appreciate it brother awesome and thank you man and I do and anyone else there anyone out there listening go to the backlog of these podcasts they are filled with great information to help you on your way thank you my friend I appreciate that I want to thank Ed for coming on the show and dropping his knowledge bombs on the tribe I also want to thank Ed for his inspiration over the years for independent filmmakers around the world if you want to get links to anything we spoke about in this episode including links to all of those amazing DVDs with director commentary as well as his amazing book independent Ed head over to indiefilmons.com forward slash 450 and guys the hits will continue to come on the indie film also podcast next week we have an Oscar nominated filmmaker coming on the show whose films have grossed hundreds of millions of dollars to say the least and the following week we have another indie film Legend from the 90s I will not give you any more hints about it but it's a very amazing episode as well and if you haven't already please head over to filmmakingpodcast.com And subscribe and leave a good review for the show it really helps us out a lot thank you not only for listening guys but for 450 opportunities to help serve you and help you on your filmmaking and screenwriting paths thank you so so much this is just the beginning there is some big big stuff cooking over at indie film hustle and you will be hearing about it in the coming weeks and months thank you again as always keep that hustle going keep that dream alive stay safe out there and I'll talk to you soon thanks for listening to the indie film hustle podcast at indiefilmhustle.com that's indie f-i-l-m-h-u-s-t-l-e.com [Music]