John McEnroe: Full Interview

so how often are you here when I'm home like five days a week oh really okay I mean I'm not here like all day every day I try to pick my spots but I like coming here you know we have some better kids come one to three so I sometimes come for that I like to sometimes get out with one of them if they're deserving of a beating um um do you get out and play with them much okay not a lot but ultimately it's about you know teaching him that uh get a feeling and understanding and sort of when to sort of step on the gas pedal there's not many people that can step on it the all the way through like every point it's your last Point like Nadal or yeah David ferer or changen or Connors you know those guys are few and far between so we're here at your Academy partnership between you and Sport time which Jones and operat some other tennis clubs in the region um how did it come about it came about uh the idea wanted to sort of give something back to the city of New York and you know I've been lucky enough to grow up here and then become the number one player in the world sort of proving it could be done and given the fact that the US opens here it seemed to me to be important that there'd be professionals still coming out of this area and it been so long I can't think of really anyone almost my brother you know 25 years ago 35 years ago I mean a long time since there's been sort of uh professionals that have made it from here so the idea I don't think this is a new one and I'm sure the USA was thinking about it but the ult original idea was to be there and and it turned out that they didn't seem to we didn't seem to be able to get on the same page they couldn't control me or whatever number of reasons that they decided not to move forward but I think I was lucky because I had an ability here at Randall's Island which I have a history at playing sports when I was a kid and being closer to Manhattan and um this partnership that's with the city cuz these are public owned courts that to me that actually was almost a better I was talking to your agent Gary Swain who's been with you forever and he said you handled figuring most of this out on your own what were the steps that you took from initial idea to actually making it reality well I suppose like any idea uh there's rejections along the way or people don't think it's going to work or uh whatever the logistics uh what did people say on that front it would work you know you have to work within a a framework um you have to uh things don't happen quickly uh cuz you know I'm I want it to happen immediately I wanted to get as many kids as possible they were rebuilding a facility at the USA new indoor facility they put $75 million I saw my name on that building you know I said this would be a good idea to have the John mackerel Tennis Academy here no-brainer I mean to me yeah they a lot of people didn't seem to think that way or if there was a president there they'd say well that's a good idea well he was gone in he or she was gone in two years you have to go through the next Administration and then there would be the CEO great idea but I got to get the funds or I got to get the support so all this you know it was just back and forth was just endless so with anything I I suppose you have to sort of battle and persevere the likelihood you're able to eventually work with the USA here you think what I don't think very good why not H you know you have to ask them you know I think that every year that goes by it's another another mistake you know another opportunity lost um but that's uh they um they have their ways of doing things they have a tremendous amount of money uh that they make each year what are they what's the revenue $150 $200 million in one year and then they say we don't have the budget for you know supporting your Academy or giving you money just to sort of take care of some kids and so I said you know my answer to them over the years would be well listen um you've tried many different things you put in tens and tens of millions of dollars more than that and let's say you gave me $10 million and absolutely nothing happened you've done that numerous other times you know why not you know give give an opportunity to someone who's obviously has a history of success and hopefully can Inspire some people Etc but that seemed to fall on deaf ears tell about this scholarships available here and how key fundraising is to that that's that's obviously living in the city the the cost of it going to be higher than it would be in somewhere in the middle of America or some area in Florida where there's a lot of empty space um so that is an issue so I would like to give as many kids AS Scholarship as possible and I think fundraising is very important now that's that's tough sell there's a lot of obviously causes that you know would be people would think okay if a guy's a poor kid or someone's got cancer or AIDS or this that you know you can name a hundred things it doesn't pop up on the list of most important things to give to I do believe it's not simply the tennis I think it's obviously does a lot of other things besides that it can change a lot of people's lives and we have to do better job of you know selling that and making people understand that this is uh builds a lot of character and that this this is something that would benefit them for their whole life this isn't just about okay so you can become a professional tennis player most of the kids 99% of them here or anywhere aren't going to become professionals so you've got to sort of set them up for life in a way and if you can do that by you know getting them out of a situation that is a difficult one to putting them into one where they have something to look forward to and go to and because of that they got into an Ivy League school they got into Stanford even if it wasn't a scholarship or they got into a place where they got a full scholarship that's I we've had dozens of those already many many kids have H that has happened to and I consider that a success what do you know about how you got Nike founder Phil Knight into the business of tennis when when I first signed with Nike I've been actually Nike with Nike since May of 1978 a Conor and Nasi and I believe 75 you know started wearing the swoosh The Wimbledon sneakers that I was wearing for a while and this was just starting to happen you know exploding in a way that players athletes would actually get paid to wear you know equipment sneakers clothes Etc rackets I mean this was like a new thing when I was getting a lot of heat from the establishment in tennis and people are like suspend maol for a year he's bad for the game I'd get a call it' be fil night and he'd be like keep doing what you're doing really yeah yeah and he he loved it and he would actually do campaigns that would sort of um support what I did uh you know one of them was like Nike tennis shoes are better than Dunlop rackets which I use because I was you know about to snap one of my wooden rackets so he would take what appeared to be a negative you know a lemon and turn it into lemonade and so he was the first guy that I went to because obviously over the Year Phil was really big into tennis and it was sort of uh and he played a lot and he was around the tournaments and over time he's certainly been Far and Away the number one supporter when I started the Tennis Academy what do you remember from when Phil Knight came to you and asked uh what do you think of just do it um while we were out in Portland and at that time you know I don't know how many buildings there are now there's got to be 25 but at that time I think there was five or six so the fact that I had my name on one of those and um that Phil was his office was in my building you know made me feel pretty good I was you know feeling full of myself uh and um then obviously just CU you're an employee you're involved and they're trying to throw out things that may or may not work and not all of them do one of them was you know I've got this idea for Jess doart terrible idea you know that's what you said yeah terrible idea why you know everyone says that well exactly but to me it was like come on I mean you got to do think of something better than that so that's why I'm sitting here as you know at a Academy and he's worth $25 billion you broadcast all the grand slams um how did you get to the place though where you could do that for rival us networks well I got to do it by this is uh I thought was my best chance of success go to them and say don't pay me any more money the next contract just give me the same contract but let me call in the case of I was with NBC was my original broadcast company let me call CBS because I used to work for USA and they cover it through the quarters and then the last three days I'd have egg on my face and what about the semis and finals and then it felt like there's something missing so I boy it'd be nice if I could figure out a way to get to be able to do the whole tournament because I over the years I've been doing commentary for 25 years now um maybe 26 coming up that I've basically do the big ones you know less is more I believe that for me you know I don't want to go back I traveled and I and I was playing I actually no one knows this uh maybe me and two other people but I play more on the senior tour than I actually commentated not that I I'm saying I would never do something else but it just seemed like look this is good this is just you're known for the grand slams yeah and that's that's okay and that's and would I occasionally do something else yeah occas do a Davis Cup occasionally do the Masters occasionally do another event for a couple days but really for the most part so I think that the key was when you tell a TV executive don't pay me more they actually start listening a lot more carefully uh what do you enjoy about broadcasting well I guess that um that it allows people to see me in a different light than they saw me when I played when I played it was sort of I believed the way I needed succeed was the Beast super I mean even though I know this big strapping guy it I didn't feel like that would be very intimidating so I needed to sort of intimidate in a different way what can I do to you know get an edge on people well I can come out and the first point I'm just guns blazing um in super intense now sometimes it obviously went too far not you can't try too hard I don't think but I go over the top or lose it for whatever variety reasons um and I believe that was something that um I needed to do I was talking to our shared friend your partner in the booth uh Chris fer um who said quote when I work a match with John I'm on my toes you have to make sure you know your your thoughts um you know I like to sort of play it fairly loose actually and I think that you know I'm not a big believer in um rehearsals or meetings I think that that's actually for me maybe I'm just saying this so I can get out of them but like to me it's actually energy waste you know you don't tell me something I don't know and I'd be happy to hear it um and so I remember Connor's Jimmy used said to me he he commentated for a couple years before uh I had worked at NBC and he's like son he called me son for some reason uh often times not all the time he go it's all yours you know I've had it I can't handle the meetings and I remember that a light bul went off of me I said Jimmy's got a lot of energy also and he's got a lot of intensity so what can I do in order to try to eliminate that CU if you have a meeting at 99: but you're not working at 6 you know you're around you know there's better time should be better spent so when I figured that out and then I figured out that I was able to sort of show people that I had a personality you know I actually try to model myself after vtus uh the way he commentated cuz he was the first guy saw where he was like wow it looks like he's actually enjoying being up there and he's not taking himself so damn seriously it's a it's a tennis match um and you want it to be uh where you can the average Joe could uh learn something but sort of maybe the expert the people that think they know everything could learn something as well even the players that they come up hey it's good and I was surprised actually at how people would come up to me and go hey you can come mate I go what the hell do you think I could do I mean I was my job was to sort of figure out a way to beat a guy you know and so I'd size the guy up and i' figure out what I could do in order to make me look better and him look worse and beat him and so in a way that's what you're doing as a commentator but you have the luxury of sort of being a backseat driver you got chance to sort of take a deep breath that's a lot better than when it's happening in real time it's a lot easier I should say and so it it actually bothered me for a while I really really bothered me that people would say you're a better commentator than you are a tennis I go what the hell are you talking about I'm not a better commentator than I'm in to I was the number one damn tennis player in the world what the hell are you talking about you what do you know about tennis and I'd be I'd be pissed honestly and then I thought I go home and after this went on for way too long I go wait a minute they're actually you know giving me a huge compliment if they're saying that I'm as better that as a commentator than I was as a player I must be a pretty good commentator because I was a pretty good player Andy Murray serving to win Wimbleton become the first brid in more than 75 years to win the Grand Slam you guys say nothing for like six straight points during the broadcast take me into the booth and what you're thinking as a broadcaster for those points well as a broadcaster I think and often times in tennis but in in all sports they feel like they have to hear themselves talk and I've been lucky enough to understand being a player myself how difficult it is you know win loser draw and for that moment you know for to me it's not about me anymore and there's nothing I need to say it's actually better some of my best work is when I've shut up when Federer played Nal the 2008 Wimbledon final I didn't say almost anything in the entire fifth set because what I saw was giving me goosebumps and you know you don't need you you're better off in my opinion not saying anything tell about the envelope you got with the letter and offer from Donald Trump it was after seren and Venus had started talking about they could beat a lot of guys so over time somehow I guess cuz I'm a commentator I'm not exactly sure why I was the sort of the Fall Guy for this so why didn't they bring they're always like well what do you think well I you know I don't I think serrian and Venus are great but I you're not going to sit there and have me say I can't you know beat them so I was calling a match and suddenly I get this envelope and it's from Donald Trump you know who promoter Galore little did I know what was going to end up happening nor I believe anyone else um if you think some of the things I did was crazy well the craziest thing in the last 250 years of our entire United history of United States is that Donald Trump became president in him I mean amazing so he wrote me a letter said you know dear John you know I want to offer you a $1 million again um to play either Serena or Venus and so over the course of time literally you know my kids you know my daughters have Dad I don't know if you can beat Serena I'm like God I didn't get my kids on my side why'd you turn down the Trump's offer I it it's it's never been something where I was like I want to go play a woman in a match um I just feel like I needed to defend myself maybe I'm not as sure now that I could do it as I was then cuz I'm getting a little older and grayer but nonetheless you know I was like wait a second I was the number one player in the world you know I wasn't a bad player why are they you knowum Jesus Christ John why you say that you could do that H hello you know please I mean grant me like that much and so I've been sort of I don't know I'm it's like uh I just attract everything about when whenever something comes up why don't they talk about that with track and field or soccer or basketball or any other sport what happens if some girl goes and plays in the NBA uh what happens if a track star that won the you know 100 meters runs against a college guy what happens if the numberers whoever it is in the world plays Serena I mean but somehow it's me the old fart so you won uh Seven Grand Slam titles over five years that started and ended with us open uh six years oh five no maybe you're right five six five oh yeah somewhere around started and ended with us open uh championships um even with that having been said you've said your most enjoyable years were 79 and 80 when you were number three in the world not number one why uh I think that the the climbing the ladder is is is more exciting and you you learn from your mistakes uh at least I did I think it's easier at a younger age to sort of keep perspective and you know it it's it's you're on the road for the first time in a full-time basis you're just in a way loving every minute of it um you don't have the pressure I didn't realize the difference you know I said look if I'm number one in uh the world or I'm number three in 1979 number two in 1980 and now I'm number one that's not a big difference you know it appeared um it was I was thinking it's only one you know there only one guy so there shoulds to be Heap Heap full of pressure on that guy but I was amazed at how different it was in what ways was it different I just especially because Bjorn stopped right when I be really became number one so that put the focus the spotlight even more on me because they didn't have everyone was so shocked that he had stopped that they pretend like it didn't happen but even in other sports I think for some reason that number one and I I understand it to agree I don't understand to the degree that things changed but the it was it it seemed so much tougher you became less trusting of people when I'm not sure that I was all that trusting before uh having my mom was always sort of warry of anything you know people taking advantage of me so I probably always had that but it got worse of course you know you always feel like people are taking advantage of you but um I did feel that um my world got smaller than I wanted to be I couldn't do the things that I wanted to do as easily uh but that's also because you know you're successful and people um they want more a piece of year they you're more public or they think that you know you have to act in a certain way I mean you can go on and on it's and and by the way a lot of it's good you know most of it is good um so I I mean I think people they have a tendency to sort of make it sound like me or oh my God it's so tough and I can understand why people can't relate in in a lot of ways most people that aren't in that position so you do gravitate towards people that you feel like you can can relate to even if it's in other areas of entertainment whether it's music or uh successful uh actors uh other sport you know people that you feel like can sort of understand what you're going through 1980 Wimbledon you and Borg epic fourth set tiebreaker that you end up winning 18 uh to 16 s times you defended the championship point but you end up losing that match and you said borgs much later retirement caused you to lose motivation uh and it took you a couple years before before you started improving again as a player why well that was um a match where it really became apparent that there was something really special when we played and it was in the biggest of occasions so to me I was really looking forward to a lot more of it um yeah the next year I beat him in the finals in Wimbledon yes I beat him in the next year at the finals of the open but that doesn't mean the tables couldn't have been turned two years later or three but the important thing to me was that we were making each other better I believe at least I know he was making me better and I hope that I was making him better we were so different but we actually were friendly you know we got along he was like the guy that I never had a problem with so it was so shocking when he stopped so surprising not really someone that I could test myself or look at and say okay what do I need to do now not that there's weren't other players there but I I kept waiting for to come back and so it took me a while a year or two to realize he wasn't coming back why do you still feel sick when you're in Paris and often times wonder how differently your life would have been had you won the French I don't know how differently my life would have been I think I would have been considered like higher up on the sort of alltime greats you know my rankings seems to be dropping each every couple years I mean I hopefully I'm hopefully I'm still on the top 10 but um it's also unfair because there wasn't the same importance on the Australian and French Open back when but I mean you know I did recognize that uh I felt like okay I got to prove the people cuz I actually was better and when I growing up on Clay uh uh I'd won the the big events the French Juniors for example so I mean I wanted to prove that I could do it on all surfaces and and I should have proven it I did prove it but I didn't I choked when I needed to just and then by the time um I thought okay I got to win it the next year I didn't win it the next year the following year I didn't play cuz my son was born and then uh when I took time off and decided I was going to become a better player I didn't become a better player so I never you know was able to and I had to put you have to go over there for long periods of time in order to really pay your dues and get used to the court more than I was willing or capable of doing so I had to prioritize a little bit which I didn't want to do but I never was the same so I I I do feel like um there's at least a day most of the time I have a good time in Paris by the way um there a beautiful it's the most beautiful city in the world people are they're very supportive uh even now uh they say positive things um so there's only a day or two where I have those like sort of nightmares I guess basically legitimately legitimate like you wake up and it's said oh yeah I lost you know one of those what's the nightmare about well the nightmare is about what I what how how did I screwed it up you know basically and what I could or should have done but you know I try to minimize that I mean you know we all have are I bet you wish you had done an interview better at one time or another and it keeps you up at night yeah all 31 years of you how well do you recall going up to introduce yourself to Jimmy Connor for the first time shortly before you guys played I didn't really have a chance hey I'm John mackenro you know it was more like he brushed me off before I even had a chance to say so I was like oh my God this guy's intense man I I was so wound up even before that happened because I'd never been on the Center Court I was a junior I didn't even know I was going to play the main draw I just got into the qualifying then two weeks later three weeks I'm in the semis of Wimbledon with me and Bjorn Borg Jimmy Connor and vas scalas I'm like what's wrong with this picture right um I me you're you're 18 years old Center Court of Wimbledon right so that was already going to be overwhelming but when he brushed me off that made it even you know he's like you know I'll talk to you maybe after depending on the result um so it felt like I literally felt like I my legs were shaking but that was not because of what he did I mean I ended up being somewhat part for the course with Jimmy um and that's I mean I knew enough about even as a kid you know that people do weird things and it's hey I'm Jimmy Connor's nice to meet you relax so you you play better you know I can understand where he was coming to show this kid and and then maybe I'll acknowledge his existence after I kick his ass but so that was the big tournament for you because you make it to the semi-finals of Wimbledon Center Court only 18 years old even though you lose to him you end up beating him later an invented Madison Square Garden that he didn't even finish when it was clear he was losing um but why do you think the two of you have had so little respect for each other over the years and when if ever do you think that's changed we know we we don't like each other you know and I think that if we were in a room now we could talk we always had respect for each other that's absolutely untrue um I always respected Jimmy Connors as far as the only guy that's ever tried on the tennis court harder than Jimmy Connor is rafiel Nadal in my book and he's not far behind every time I'd look in the mirror before I play him or someone else I'd say to myself is am I trying as hard as Jimmy Conor so I definitely again with him was I hope that I made him better and I know he made me better why do you think you guys didn't like each other besides he him being a complete okay I me and him thinking I was okay what like why is there that feel obviously there's I we're we sort of have some sort of Irish you know sort of ancestry that you know we might be somewhat volatile or have you know uh get get a little upset you know maybe more easily some them others but I mean from his perspective I could understand and I'd be the same way if some 18-year-old kid and I'm like number one or two in the world and he's trying to take my Manel or he become you know the number one American I can see why he would not like that and want to do everything in his power to make sure that didn't happen so that's you know from the competitive a aspect I understand that and we're not out there like let's go have dinner afterwards so you only see we only see what's happening sort of on the court M so it's difficult to be able to sort of take a step back and say we're human beings you get all like worked up crazed you thought him and Pete Rose were separated at Birth elaborate on that well they're I mean they looked like twins to me you know they had those same haircuts and the way they played you know that intensity when Pete Rose ran over what what was it uh Ray Foss or whatever it was the allar game and you're like what in God's name is this guy doing breaks the guy's leg or ruins his knee or whatever it was and you're thinking this this guy's going 110% every time and I I maybe I didn't forget how he crushed me when I shook his hand but um you know that the level of like they had this chip on their shoulder like everyone was against them so I I just thought those I literally you look at those two is like almost the exact same people tell me about the senior Tour event you were playing with Jimmy Connor where he walks off the court Midway through and the conversation the two of you had in the locker room that got him back well actually the conversation wasn't that bad I mean he walked off and I was winning I should have left well enough alone but being the [ __ ] that I am you know I tried to convince him look this is better cuz look we're this isn't the finals of Wimbledon now for for us it was a big match cuz we were playing in Dallas and um it was sort of good crowd I mean it's not like it was a Wimbledon crowd but there was energy and people wanted to see us play and we were battling and he got fed up I don't know if it was because he got some bad call I don't even remember now to be honest because it could have it could be who knows it depends on who you ask or he was mad cuz I was he thought I was making fun of him or I was doing something he didn't like or whatever it was hot also you know he got hot under the collar and so he just walked off the court he said I've had it man I'm like Jimmy you can't do that you know and then I of course which I have this unique way of doing I have an ability to get people so mad at me that they've never tried hard or you know or they take it out somehow on the court and they give 120% and so I've managed to do that with lendel and Connors and others you know cuz I they get how he act like that what a jerk and so um he went back out there and I started getting a little bit tight and the next thing I know the crowd's booing you know he boo him off the court cuz he how you leave a court and just quit I that's not Jimmy Connor's right they're booing me at the end of the match like how how did I get booed at least you know I wish theyd get the whole story maybe they'd understand John a little better how tough was 2017 for you 2017 was was definitely um uh definitely tough uh it was uh still coming to grips with it still coming to terms with it um my parents uh obviously were extremely important part of my life my dad even though his health was dein Ling and it was still hard but the I I I really thought my mom would have this opportunity to sort of have this last 5 10 years of her life where she could do with things her way cuz it had been about my dad more and um concern and then frustration cuz he was you know not taking care of himself and and and getting old and so that was extremely difficult to have that backed up 5 months later by my mom passing away like it blew it blew my mind um so I've been ever since that Graham I've been sort of like say you got to take a step back you got to slow down here and you got to think about you know making sure that you're doing things that you hopefully want to do as much as possible and smelling the Roses more maybe and and I was lucky both my parents uh lived to their 81 that's a pretty good life uh for most of them but nonetheless it's been I still feel like I was you know a 2x4 I just really yeah how did you get through it I'm not through it I'm still dealing with it but you know I have a good um I've been lucky in a lot of ways and uh I think that I was set up uh you know I have hopefully I'm fairly well educated and have an understanding and I've nothing you know I've had my own experiences with you know it's tough times with in my first marriage and things don't always go the way you wanted to with your own kids and own life and decisions you can go on and on so you know to me the one of the most important things that I've tried to do for me in my life as as a whether as a human being but a father a husband is when people talk to me about why didn't does it eat at you you didn't win the French yeah it eats at me in a way but at the same time I'd feel like I've had a lot of success more than I would have ever dreamed of when I was 17 18 years old so I think like look you got to you got to just spend time whatever time it takes to look at the glass half full as suppose glass half empty I mean if you're going to look at it half empty then what chance is it for a lot of other people uh and so I've tried to just um you know basically simplify and make sure that I'm doing things hopefully and number one doing things I want to do and hopefully just putting forth in play into place whether it's with relation ships again or you know the future may hold in terms of work or you know where I want to live any really basic things do I want to make changes in my life I you know really think these things through and and and and take my time and and realize how important that is for me you said they had a serious and demanding side they expected achievement in what ways well I think in all ways um they gave me opportunities that most kids don't get um they put me even though it it would cost my dad you know and he eventually became a partner in the law firm but it wasn't always that way so he tried to make sure me and my two brothers had a a vacation I'm not every family can do that and and and and go to a private school which he thought would be give I guess a better opportunity for something down the road and so in return it was expected so the way I see it was you know to be able to you know give everything you had in terms of whatever it was you're you go out and play sports or more more importantly um do good in school and so at least set yourself up if it just doesn't work out it wasn't like a 12 I'm like I'm going to be a tennis player I think that my dad I didn't really want to play tennis that much it was felt like it was pushed on me a little bit I of course it was a club a block away from me so it wasn't like it was that difficult for me to go out and hit some balls but eventually I started going to different areas and people started talking and say hey this guy could do this and so there was expectations I suppose that I try to deflate or you know uh get get my dad to back off a little bit and I think I was successful in a certain ways I mean not many kids at 12 would tell their father look you know just back off until I'm 18 because that's when we'll see what college I get into and what the future lies don't you know I don't want to peek at 12 or 14 or 16 so I think that I was somewhat mature beyond my years that I was sort of able to sort of see that that would help me take some of the pressure off um but you know of course you always wonder and I'm sure some other people do myself included to what degree do you push did they push me too much that caused me to some ways to sort of lash out or is it that obviously if they hadn't done that I wouldn't have been the player I have so to what degree do you sort of try to do that to better yourself I talk about your mom K I heard a couple stories one your dad finished second in his Law School class of 500 she asked why he didn't finish first two uh whenever you had an exam that you scored less than 95% on she's asking like what's going on so how tough was she well she was tough but you know I think that um she was um someone that was tough in a different way I mean she was well the business more about look you got to do well in school and you could can but but also she said oh you were always like that Johnny I think that she saw a perfectionist side in me at a very young age and someone who want you know had a desperate desire or need to succeed at whatever I did so she maybe sort of threw a little gasoline on the fire or what she thought would be best for me and that's the way she was also she was that way she I mean imagine you know my dad being you know second out of 500 well how come you first well that's sort of deflating a little bit if you think about that but that maybe that pushed him to become the person he was in in law that he became a partner I don't you know this is you know we have to call Zigman Freud up she was an operating room nurse uh what happens when you fall off your bike once and come to her saying your arm hurts uh well I mean she wasn't the one that would say let's jump right let's go straight to the hospital let's take a couple aspirin and let's go keep going doing what you're doing which I was perfectly fine with you know I who what kid wants to go to the hospital or I think I broke my arm God my arm hurts she was like that with anything I mean you know the classic phrase if you take medicine for a cold it goes in away in a week if you don't take it it goes away in seven days so you know everything was like that uh to me so that again you know I'd have to sort of view uh how I was as a father and sort of how am I going to do things the same or differently um because sometimes there's other people that for legitimate reasons you know maybe are more paranoid or play it safer and so after I was told to have couple aspirin and let's just go keep going and I would be playing you know trying to play like this doesn't feel right so after about 3 weeks of this uh I finally like look I and it turned out I hadn't completely broken it I've got it and my mother's God bless her you know and I don't want to say my mom sound like a this horrible she you mean completely you Justa it but it was but it was healing in the same way it was healing correctly so had I not gone at all I would have never had I just had to put my arm in a sling for another 3 to 6 weeks did it make going to the tournaments harder because your dad would always go no cuz he didn't go that much um towards the end I mean he wanted to go and I'd bring him along um at some events more because I think it meant more to him than me um and some ways I felt bad because because he'd become you know was like he was I had another kid I I got enough kids I don't need another kid and so that was tough in a way um but you know then you feel bad because you all of a sudden when your mother and father aren't there you're like well you wish that it could have ended a different way or you could have said something or they could have said something to you and that doesn't happen and you feel sort of you have to reflect on that and so more reflecting recently than than probably I'm not a guy that looks back a whole lot I like to look forward and I think that it's benefited me for the most part I don't try to dwell on the past because I think it can eat you alive um I try to if I can sort of make in a way make light of it if I can or try to find some humor in it you know whether it's the match I played or what I could have done or the decisions I made uh in the past uh because I can't change those and so I have to try to continue to become in my book uh try to become a better person that's the only thing I can do so you have six kids of your own three uh from your first marriage two uh with your wife Patty and the stepchild as well um how do you think your parents impacted how you are as a father well I'm sure they impacted me in a lot of ways my Situation's obviously different um I'm in a second marriage uh my parents were together for 59 years um times are different with the day and age unfortunately with 911 and you know other things that have gone on you seem to you know parents are more protective I suppose and maybe I was in some ways too protective with the older ones and then less is you know I was the oldest so I know that you got to be home at 10 uh and so you get to be looser as time goes on cuz you you realize that you've got to be able to be a little more flexible and maybe you don't have to be quite as you know intense about certain things live and learn and and certainly um it depends on the person you're with it depends on you know with kids it's difficult especially if you're in a Rel you know you have kids that you know you through a divorce and uh if if my stepchild um she I met her when she was nine well she walked into a situation where there was other kids already and then she was the only one as it turns out of the six that I had wasn't my blood kid so you know that you have to sort of try to think about that how hopefully I can try to treat her as much as possible as the same as all the other kids and how she going to view it how am I going to deal with it and then you have if your ex is telling them one thing and you're telling them another and then they're getting conflicting messages and even with your present wife who you know I've been I feel like I had this second opportunity that I was lucky enough to understand I shouldn't pass up on it it's been a I believe a great thing for me but we don't agree on everything we don't agree on everything about how to raise kids or what to do and so um it's I've learned that while um my parents uh I believe were good parents really good parents that by far in a way for me the toughest thing I've ever had to do was to try to figure out how to be a good father you know and a good parent there's nothing more satisfying but more difficult your son Kevin wrote a novel which had great reviews um in some of the interviews he gave around the novel he he made the comment something to the effect of that he felt like he struggled to live up to your expectations how tough was it for you to read that well it's it's it's tougher for me to see my kids feel like they have a hard time living up to my expectations one of the reasons why I really pushed my kids away from tennis is because I didn't want them to have to live up to sort of you got to be better than John mackenro and in addition to the fact that it all be there's Ma's kid how does he act so I felt like you know and when your parents incredibly successful regardless of the field that probably has to be tough yeah I'm sure you know it's it's I would like to hope that it's a good PR to have but I you know I don't think I was as as sympathetic as I could have been um well because I try to treat them just like normal kids and you know try to be like um look it's more good than bad you know you've got more opportunity than the difficulties but I sort of didn't realize that can be somewhat overwhelming and I think it continues to be in a way you know so I feel bad but I mean what I wanted to try to have the kids to have like a fire in the belly for whatever they wanted you want to write a book great you want to act okay um whatever it is you want to do but you just got to go all in with it um and so that's the part where if I feel like I could have done better I could have figured out a better way to sort of get them to understand that and be more supportive and understanding of the difficulties it is to sort of live up sort of maybe if he if that's what he's feeling I mean that makes me feel bad that I would have liked to have hoped I could have done a better job parenting parenting so that he would understand that that's not what I need from him but probably also every parent probably would have could have should have you know you know every day you know every day you're make you know you could go on and on so and then there's always the how how much you going to push them how much do they need to be pushed um how much should you push them um so this is these are all exact exactly why to me there's again nothing more rewarding or difficult than being a parent your personality uh when you lost a match growing up or when you didn't get an A in school how would you act well sometimes I cried but um not um I think I didn't take too kindly to it um it's not easy to lose I mean go ask anybody um however I do think you learn more from losing than you do from winning especially when you're younger did you feel that way then or well it's hard to feel that way then um but you try to tell yourself and you hopefully have people around you telling you that but it's difficult to feel that when you're 12 14 16 Etc um it's it's a tough it's a very rewarding situ uh Prospect to try to become a professional athlete um but it is fraught with some danger and I think that's why I look at things a a little bit differently than perhaps um other acmy or other people I think I have a unique perspective that most people don't have that doesn't mean I'm automatically going to be a better Coach but I do I can bring certain things to the table both as a parent and as a player that I think that uh I could share with people that don't seem to they don't seem to be able to grasp that but that's you know ultimately you try I have numerous times here with you know and I'm not mentioning names but there's many parents with their young kids they they act like they know more about tennis than I do I'm like are you kidding me I mean I look at them like I there's been a lot of people said a lot of crazy things but at least give me this much so your antics on the court obviously been I part of what you've gotten criticized for over the years but also what's endeared you to tons of fans as well I want to bring up two moments and get from you what you recall uh the quarterfinal at Longwood Cricket Club in Boston what happened after losing uh the doubles match I got freaked out by this this couple or lady that was um uh clapping you know and we lost and then basically I made the mistake it was stupid thing to do I was 19 years old I think or something like that and I went over and I basically spit like in front of her um not on her and that's still gross and wrong to do it um to to I just cuz I was so pissed at this person and you know kept going for like 2 3 minutes after the match was over and then you know she said something like you can't do that to me and U the F the Father the the husband I think it was I think it was the husband got you know and threw a punch and hit me and I was just like all right I'm going to you know and I basically had the guy where I was just going to be like I lost it completely you know or I felt like I was in the process of losing it but thankfully the guy that I was playing doubles with this guy um was you know and people broke it up mhm because I was sort of like um bordering on being out of control I suppose and that's not me anyway I'm not like uh the if people didn't know me I don't get into fights and stuff like that I was just like that was uh rather you know embarrassing and stupid thankfully it didn't you know it could have been worse had I you know decided I actually was going to throw a punch how did you once spill soda on the king of Sweden well I didn't really spill it I actually hit like you know I there was stuff on the table and I didn't realize that king of swen was in the first row and so I just wanted to clear the table so to speak um so that led to You' D the king of Sweden who apparently loved it but um I probably was looking to get defaulted there a little bit I was a little bit out of it you know I was a little bit fried from you know was towards the end of the year it's one of those times where you snap you went to anger management counseling at one point in your life how much if at all did it help um and then another part of that is you made the comment before that you also in the back of your mind never really wanted to completely give up the anger right I think in some ways you know anger can be can be used in a positive way uh if it gets you to try harder it's a good thing to express yourself um it there's times where it goes too far there's no question about it I've been to many many different people not all because of Anger Management sometimes unfortunately in divorces and things of that nature and uh you get to a point where it gets to a stage where something might be courta appointed um which I was more than happy to do um not happy when you're told you have to do it it's better to do it when you maybe want to do it but nonethe less I do believe that overall it's helped how so well if nothing else you blow off some steam with someone but you get to hear a different hopefully a professional perspective and you know sort of make sense of things so um I would would and will continue I don't happen to be at this very moment although I do believe especially with what happened with my parents passing away and um life in general that it's not a bad thing that to try to for me to try to find someone else I probably seen at least 10 people really oh yeah I mean I some for a guy moved or a girl this that I mean or I decided to try or just time went know different areas but it's there's certainly um it's certainly something that's worth trying and I'm if if I'm fortunate enough to in the position where I can afford it because God knows they charge you way too much for most people then I'm lucky enough to be able to hopefully benefit I'm not saying that every you know every person should that's up to the person to decide but for me personally I think there's overall it's helped I mean it's not like I become a completely different person because of that I think life is has allowed me to get a perspective where hopefully I've got a better handle on things that doesn't mean I don't make make mistakes every day why did you say with the uh anger it got to a point later on in your career where you didn't know if you were were getting angry because it was expected of you or because you were actually angry probably because of probably because of the kids uh you know having kids you sort of you're obviously as a father you're going to be setting a different type of example um they talk about you being a role model when I had kids it just seemed like I I don't know maybe I didn't have the same fire you know desire that I did because I sort of Saw things in a different way so I became what I what I would say was sort of like a cigarette smoker that couldn't kick the habit you know I I didn't want to be doing it anymore I'm not saying it was necessarily wrong I just I didn't I just felt like I was doing it for the wrong reason that's all um I'm sure there's a lot of cigarette smokers they wish they quit but they couldn't and they're like why am I doing this and there' be like good question and so that sort of felt like that way cuz I could have had the time could have been spent better some some other way to what extent do you feel you maximized your potential that's difficult to say I'd say probably 90% you know I mean I didn't reach my potential but it's very difficult to reach your potential I think I did better than most people when I took time off 6 months off or so when which doesn't seem like a crazy amount of time now Roger Federer um that uh I was coming back to be a better player I didn't you know I wasn't you know parents thought he was going to quit or some people thought no I was going to come back and be a better player that was the plan I mean it wasn't a plan to be a worst player and I tried a whole set of things whether it was you know weightlifting you know yoga training more off Court getting back to playing a little bit more uh changing trying different racket whatever it was anything and everything at the time if you look at where I was at say the end of 1984 or 1985 I'm I I did feel at that particular stage that I thought to myself that maybe it sounds egotistical and I guess it is when I was at that stage I thought no one's ever played you know better than I played you know when I'm at my best I feel like I'm the best that's played I brought the game up to a different level um but why aren't I feeling better about it so I felt like something was missing uh in my life it wasn't the tennis part so because of that other part probably ultimately my tennis was hurt you wrote in your book for anyone who's been on the top once you've lost it everything spirals out of control and it's difficult to find your way back explain that well you know some of this is you rely on Instinct and some of it is luck and some of it is a lot of hard work but at the same time you work for many years to maintain that edge and any athlete will tell you that you don't want to lose it once you get there because you've spent years you know with every part of the sport the mental part the preparation the intensity the playe all that to come to a point where you've got an edge and when you take time off and if you come back and clearly something like look at Novak right now you know people are like well what's going to happen with Novak no one knows right now he's a shell of a person he was Tiger Woods you know he was going to break Jack Nicholas's record no question about it well 5 years have gone by and you know you're like he's shell of himself in maybe a lot of its injuries or a combination and now he's has a chance again and so you don't and and nov could have a chance again absolutely and I don't think I was ever counted out my last wimbl and I got to the semis uh I played sis in the semis of the open when I was 31 I thought to myself all right I got I got this you know he's 19 now he was turns out he's a turned out to be a pretty good player and agasse in the final now I could have lost him I guess too cuz I lost him at Wimbledon but that seemed like it was going to happen um and it didn't so it's I wish I knew the answer to these the end of your tennis career per se was also basically the end of your marriage and you wrote I felt as though the bottom had dropped out of the world how would you describe the feeling Not only was I losing a part of my identity which which was tennis I or so I thought um I turns out I'm still obviously a lot more involved than I thought I would be at the time um what I had basically thought I was stopping for in a way was so that allow my ex-wife to sort of the opportunity to go out and do her thing and then take care of the kids which I said hey that's not a bad thing they're young and that would be a good thing so then to have sort of neither one of those in a way like the end of the marriage and the career that was you know that was a lot to handle that seemed a bit overwhelming do you remember why you were crying on the changeovers in Paris it just was to I did I shouldn't have been out in the court I felt like I was sort of obligated to sort of finish I mean I guess I didn't have to I guess I was lucky in a way that there I played with my brother so I you know I had some support system Patrick was with me um Davis Cup meant a lot to me around that time uh because I was around people that support in me and my kids were there and so I was least getting by by the skin of my teeth with regards to Patrick specifically you said what saved my life in Paris was the presence of Patrick um what do you mean saved your life having Patrick playing doubles and just being around him was very um was very helpful to get me through you know I had some good strong support um I was with Andre I remember the week before Davis Cup and he was trying to help me through things and the team and Davis kept that meant a lot you know Pete was there and he said he loved me you know on the when we won the double so that you know that I'm sure that I'm I think it's safe to say that that's the only time he's ever said that to another player on a tennis court I love you I love you man but that meant a lot to me he probably won't even admit he said it now um hopefully he will but that was you know just having your sort of tennis family around at that time was was very important how much do you miss anonymity I don't know cuz it haven't been that way since I was 18 so I suppose you know most of it's pretty good I guess but sometimes it's it's not the best but for the most part I've been pretty damn lucky I mean as far as if you told me at 18 you know that I'd be you're sitting there at 59 talking to me who the hell would care so I guess that's a good thing um and so I still to have a place in the sport and you know I'm going to slowly I've worked my I've worked many many years Graham for um the past probably 15 to 20 years have slowly weaning myself off this so that someday I will weaning myself off the attention and the agulation so that I can handle when someone you know they don't know who the Patty's always like go jist just go out and forget about it if someone comes up and speaks to you and cuz the others be like oh my god do I have to sign an autograph or take some dumb selfie and then it be like oh my God what happens if they don't even know who I am so there's that part where the the question's going to become when you get to that stage what's going to happen when uh they don't know are you going to be able okay with that so I've worked many years to try to be like look I'm going to be okay with that I hope I I will be it's the same as um people always ask me do you love tennis and I'll go I'll tell you when I know I love tennis I think I love tennis but I'll love tennis when I'm out there playing tennis when they don't pay me to play that hasn't happened yet the paparazi you said they don't have blood in their veins they have vomit um I wasn't that I wasn't that nice was I how did the paparazzi act towards you same way they act now you know like heinous individuals what were the kind of limits to which you'd let yourself go in terms of acting towards them try not to you know not to hit them cuz you know you feel like you hit guys you're you're you know you get it sued and you want to I guess I mean look I'm sure plenty of people do I mean even the nice guys do they even get tired of it I bet you the greatest people in the world you know the ones that handle it amazing you're like how the hell is Tom Brady keep doing that man where he just seems like he's this greatl looking guy wins everything and then he's got the you know beautiful wife and everything and then he the people he puts up with it doesn't seem like you see him in any fights I'm sure he's part of like sh many Christmas Maybe I'm Wrong maybe some people handle it better than others but to me um I obviously people do handle it better than others and I would not be the poster boy for handling it well but at the same time um this whole thing is completely crazy it's it's beyond belief so a few music moments I wanted to mention and get what you recall how about the best time you ever had with Madonna and sea pen well you know we when they were living in Malibu um I remember one uh dinner where uh cuz I it just seemed like I thought my relationship was volatile let's put it that way or it so had been talked about with my ex-wife so then I felt more comfortable you know when I SW why because there was even more volatile what would happen well they didn't throw punches in front of me but you know you could see that uh things you know Sha's a very intense person and Madonna's got her own I don't know them well enough I mean I know Shawn a little bit I haven't seen much of them recently so you're talking about ancient history 30 years ago um and so at the time it seemed like a normal thing you know but in retrospect I would hardly call I mean my approach to life is different than Madonna's I mean she's obviously unbelievably successful and Shawn his is also incredibly successful and you know I'd shy away a little bit more than that you know and um certain things some they took it to different levels than I did but um that that's part of why it didn't last very long how about playing with Bruce Springsteen I never played with Bruce Springsteen I played with a lot of people I wish I did um uh but I didn't I you know I've been around him a lot when he's played in fairly small settings and I was kept waiting for Bruce to go hey John why don't you pick up the guitar and we'll Jam so that says something about my guitar playing because I've had an opportunity I just recently played with Billy Gibbons which was sort of a bucket list thing at the charity event a few weeks ago and he's we played Sharp Dressed Man or I was with you know 15 the band was there and of course if I hadn't played it would have been probably better but nonetheless it was awesome to get up there and even do a short Sola with him spending time with Paul McCartney well I mean I guess that you get certain perks uh with certain individuals that you wouldn't obviously otherwise get and so when you actually get to meet him and a little bit you like how this guy is you know one of the Beatles you're talking about Paul McCartney and and this guy is one of the greatest you know human beings you forget obviously how Talent is but the you get to see how a person I mean I've seen how a lot of people operate and try to learn from certain people and I'm like you can't get higher up in terms of I mean we all know how Talent he is but the way he operates as a human being how was touring yourself we had a great tour you know it was the you know I called called myself the most traveled unsigned band in history but you probably would have been signed though I don't know about that um I always wanted to be like sintana you know that was like my he he was a guitar player but I needed a singer so cuz I couldn't sing I mean I would like to sing a little backup but I'm not a good singer so and you tried doing it both I tried it's very it's very difficult to sing and play at the same time or at least for me so when I was started going out with Patty and Patty had sort of been disillusioned by the music business to some degree even know she got nominated for an economy Award right when we met or started going out and had sold a couple you know millions of Records it's not like she had had success but disillusion Patty Smite Patty SM my wife suc I this is perfect we'll play in a band together can't think of anything better let's I'm going to you know be the and she goes I want to play mixed doubles with you at Wimbledon and I go you don't play tennis and she goes exactly and um she said after I played a show she goes if anyone's going to play music now or tour it's me not you and she wasn't laughing how how did you react you're right you know sometimes I make some pretty good decisions um I I don't I'd like to think I'm not stupid even though I love music but the more I play guitar the more I appreciated my tennis and there's that's absolutely true my wife would put it pretty bluntly I wrestled the guitar into submission that's not a good thing if you're a guitar player you stopped touring right before you finished your first album what happened to the album hopefully it's burned um it's been thrown away you have it somewhere though no I have some demos and stuff and I was trying to do something but you know what I did was and I again this is cuz I was lucky enough to be able to do this I had the luxury of putting in the contract that this is not going to be released until I think it should be released and I have enough respect I'd like to thank for the people in the you know other industries that I have an understanding of what it's like to be good at something and you know I don't want to take a job from someone because I'm John maero and not because I'm good enough or at least close to being good enough and so um I wouldn't release it because it didn't it wasn't good enough that's why I mean I could have released it you know in the'80s they asked me to releas a record when I barely played um and they could have put a compilation and a bunch of singers and this that and the other thing and then this one I kept I remember at Eddie Kramer at one stage and Eddie was the engineer of Hendricks you know you've heard of him Jimmy Hendrick and so I'm like thinking I go Eddie I can't s you know I think we it's become evident I can't sing but there's stuff that's coming into being I think it's Pro Tools and you you can make me sound good and then I would have considered even it was like in a way if it sounded good that's what matters cuz there's some people that don't really sing that great that are out there but I couldn't even do that that's how I guess how hopeless it was I was talking to your agent Gary Swain and asked him about what he thinks the best investment is you ever made thinking he's going to go in a completely different direction he said Patty smart agent you know say what you want to hear but it's true I think that it gave me a so second leas on life and she's allowed me you know and and doesn't get thanked for it enough you know you try to sort of put your career on hold in a way um and then try to step in when you're on the road or you know try to be the only job tougher than being a parent is being a stepparent um so it's very difficult to sort of feel you're getting sort of your dues and and and being able to navigate this especially if you're having difficulties with the other people involved and but allowing me to sort of do my thing in a way and continue to sort of explore like Avenues whether it was trying to be in a talk show or whether it's a game show whether whatever it was you know whatever I thought I could do or just end up being tennis or being able to come to this Academy as as often as they do or play this senior's tour be able to continue to commentate so all that in in addition do I feel like you know sort of making me more whole and a better person so I I completely agree how did you first realize this relationship was going to be different yeah I actually thought like I was lucky pretty soon early on I saw it um I sensed something I was you know at the stage I was probably 35 years old when we started to go out and um I thought to myself at that time I go I don't want any and my I got three kids we're going through you know just got divorced I don't want any more kids I don't want to have another marriage that was you know so it was tough to handle I just want to go out with some young girls that don't want to do anything but have a good time and then Patty came along didn't sound bad right and so that was my goal you know I was like look I've got you know I got to take a step back here and then exactly when I didn't want to sort of get into something I met met Patty again i' had met her once previously like nine months earlier but then we had a date went out a couple times and I thought to myself you know something don't be [ __ ] now so that you can tell yourself you had a good time again you already made that mistake before in the past you've got it like sort of do an about face and I'm proud of myself that I did and I was lucky that I that I did that what do you think she would say about why it works I'd like to think that we know we we were work as a team and we made each other the same way you in a Ral you make each other better that the sum of the two of us is better than individual Parts I think think that's true in like our social life our life in general hopefully you know you may get some disagreement with some of my kids but I my as parents um how you're juggling but you're ultimately trying to make yourself uh uh better individuals and and and giving what the other person needs when they're there there's a vacuum there if whoever's disillusioned they pick you up so I think that I'd like to think that we do that uh as well as uh most couples this has been a long time coming and I really appreciate you doing this it's a real treat you got it