Greg Maddux Interview with PitchingNinja

[Music] what's up everybody Welcome to my interview with Hall of Famer and one of the greatest pitchers of all time Greg Maddox we have about an hour we talked about Pitch grips pitching mechanics what it's like to work with Jacob degrom some maybe not safe for work stories a whole bunch of stuff you're not going to miss it but before we get to that interview please make sure to hit that subscribe button because I've got a lot of other interviews coming up for you and a whole bunch of other great pitching content so hit subscribe and without further Ado here's my interview with the legend Greg Maddox what is up Greg how much is hanging out uh enjoying the summer down in Dana Point and uh heading back to Vegas here shortly and and you're just amazed that you're able to talk to the pitching Ninja well yeah I mean my sons told me a lot about you and says you know more about pitching than anybody so uh boys how do you learn something well I just got off a call with with Nick Swisher and he said in 2004 he was like trying to make a name for himself he was hitting against you first at bat he was down he was he was up 2-0 you threw him three straight sinkers he's tried to swing out of his shoes and missed next time up same thing down 2-0 he was expecting a sinker got swinging out of his shoes three quarters of the way there he swung hit a ball right off his thumb and broke his thumb and he had a play yeah so he was like that [ __ ] Greg Maddox so I broke his thumb or he broke his thumb I wish I could remember the at-bat to be honest with you because it sounds like a good one I think uh you know as a pitcher if you could you know break something on a hitter you'll probably you're you're probably gonna remember it you know I remember hitting the guy uh in the ankle once and breaking his foot so I think uh I would remember I didn't hit him right he swung and did something I assume he he swung he said it hit right off the handle he didn't know his thumb was broken he got an image the net like a couple days later he's like I think my thumb's messed up and they're like um yeah your thumb's messed up oh crap poor guy uh was it a cutter was it off the end or was it off the hands I don't remember he said it was a cutter he thought it was a sinker coming in and it was a cutter yeah okay well good that's why the cutter was invented to try to get them off your Sinker I mean that's the whole point of it well I I've got to tell them because he didn't think you'd remember it because he didn't even show any pain like he ran the first base he's like going off and he's like man this hurts yeah uh our lighter got me one year with the cutter and my thumb hurt for about two months I remember so uh uh yeah it's not fun that's for sure I'll tell him he remembered it more than you did which is perfect because Nick it'll just take Nick down a little bit of a notch I mean he can use it well if he paid it off I mean you know if he played it off he just probably I probably just thought he got jammed a little bit personally so you know I mean I hit enough and been jammed enough to know what it feels like it's not fun what was the hardest pitcher who was the hardest pitcher for you to hit off of Uh Kevin Brown was pretty nasty you know uh David Cohn he would throw his sliders that kind of started right at your you know right at your pecker and you'd Flinch and couldn't pull the trigger on it uh Dwight Gooden was tough hitting I mean there there there was there was a lot of guys but Kevin Brown I think he was uh I couldn't eat the bun off him I'm and I didn't see his Sinker at all I didn't I didn't know where the ball was the last 20 feet when I hit off him I got to tell him that because his son played with my son at Georgia Tech so uh yeah so I've I've texted with him before I talked to him before and we'll I'll make sure he knows that so you were just working you were out working with Texas in in spring right yeah I did like three weeks of spring training I went down there to uh help get my brother acumet accumulated and uh uh just to help him out a little bit you know they have they had like I think 40 pitchers in Camp so they kind of needed an extra coach or two and uh just went down for a short period of time and really enjoyed the experience it was uh good getting a little taste of pro ball again what was your impress like I saw pictures of you working with with the legend Jacob degrom what was your impression of him I mean just incredible I mean just the the players now are so much more talented than than we were I mean uh you know the velocity is just gone off the charts and uh it's pretty impressive to watch and and then to actually see somebody that has command and actually knows where it's going uh we're pretty impressive you know there's there's kind of there's a few ways to get hitters out and you know one is to out stuff them and I think that's what we see a lot of now we see a lot of guys just trying to out stuff The Hitter like you know you can't hit it no matter where I throw it and then there's you know selection and command and and I think degrom was able to do both you know he had his selection he had command and he was also able to out stuff together so I think uh uh you know when you can combine the two you know you're looking at you know the elite pitchers in the game I mean so everybody 's you as an example and and this one well you don't have to throw hard look at Greg Maddox Greg Maddox was you know one of the greatest pitchers of all time some would say the greatest pitcher of all time and then you have guys like degrom who do who do both is there a spectrum of like you know this guy's got insane command can make the ball move um versus filo like where do you trade those things off and and how do you view them in importance um and would you ever wish to to throw harder well I mean honestly I mean I threw it as hard as I could most of the time you know it just didn't look like it uh you know I think you look at the results you look at who's winning you look at Innings pitch you look at era uh look at wins you know uh uh look at you just look at the success the pitcher's having you know on on the field and uh I think that's where you look you look for results you don't look for to light up the radar gun or or see what the spin rate is you look to see who's the most hitters out and who's staying in the game the longest would it have helped you at all like today there's so much information right like like you have information on everything spin rate uh statistics on how hitters do against certain pitches heat Maps like really detailed heat Maps I know you guys everybody had scouting reports back in the day too yeah what would you have done with that information I I would have used it to my advantage you know I think we did our own scouting you know I think most of it was sitting in front of the video room and and watching guys hit and and talking to your teammates and talking to hitters as well like you know hey why'd you swing at that pitch or how did you lay off of that one or or those type things uh you know we had the Inside Edge that came out late in my career and uh you know you can find that I think it was Dante bechette was a guy that he had something like oh 40 on change-ups unless he had one or two strikes on him then he hit like 480 on change up so you know you can pull out little tidbits and know that you know you can throw this guy a change up before you get strike one but after you get strike one you don't want to throw it anymore so uh uh you can use it you know you can use it to your advantage to help with your pitch selection you know there's usually there's usually only one pitch you don't want to throw you know in each count and you know if you're a guy that has you know four or five pitches you know if you have five pitches and there's one pitch you shouldn't throw you know the other four right so uh that's kind of how I look at pitch selection and and and you know when you go to pick one of those four pitches that you have you just throw them on your most comfortable throwing did you did you make adjustments based on what a hitter was doing against you in that at bat or did you come up with a plan beforehand did you notice little things about what a hitter would do in Reading swings no I wouldn't wish to pitch uh I went pitch to pitch and tried to read each swing or each tape or or and you know you have to also know where the pitch was you know just because you threw a guy a fastball and he had a good swing at it doesn't mean you know you can't throw them another fastball you know if the fastball was up and down the middle you know you didn't get it down in the way where you wanted it you can come back with that pitch uh yeah I read the swings pitch to pitch uh you know it's hard to have a game plan if I'm gonna throw this guy a 1-1 change up and you know all of a sudden the Count's 2-0 then what so uh you know I just went one pitch at a time and if I saw something that they hit or did if I saw if he was looking in or away or hard or soft then I would try to adjust on the next pitch so I talked to Leo too and Leo tells these stories about how you know you would think four pitches in advance and you would say I'm gonna do this this and this The Hitter is going to do this this and this and then I'm going to get them to pop up you know the story about about that how much of that's true how much of that isn't true well there are certain there's certain pitches that you think a hitters got a really good chance to pop up you know and uh if you got a base open and you're not worried about walking them uh that's when you take an opportunity to keep throwing that you know that fastball kind of up and in hoping he'll pop it up and you know you see on video you've seen enough times on video that that you think you know what this is going to work again you know hitters are a creature hitter is a creature a habit you know it's something I believe in and uh I think here's remember success so they're not going to remember you know getting a ball up and in and that that day pop up as opposed to the Home Run that they hit off you you know last month so you would tend to throw something that maybe looked like something they hit a home run off of um and then they kind of Disguise it and get them to to pop up or swing and miss or whatever well not not necessarily that I think if if you throw a semi-decent pitch and the hitter hits a home run off you I think you really got to look at your pitch selection you know your pitch selection is not very good against that hitter and knowing the hitter is more likely to remember that pitch he hit out of you then you know that's one pitch you're probably not going to throw them for the rest of his career so that's kind of how I looked at it and you know I didn't mind making mistakes I just had a hard time making the same mistake twice yeah I heard that quote you were talking to uh I forgot it was a minor league team I think it was and it stuck with me like I think a lot of people are so scared to make mistakes and you try to avoid mistakes but it's almost the only way to learn is to make a mistake but don't make that same mistake again well exactly you know I think uh you know just things happen you know things happen for a reason you know hit her hit or see the ball different off you than most pitchers or where they must see it the same but I think you know that's kind of the whole key about Pitch selection is understanding what the hitter is looking for and trying to do off you and then you could try to adjust accordingly so you grew up in Vegas probably around you know gambling that cards all that how much is pitching like playing cards well I mean you always like to have the odds in your favor I mean uh and you know usually they are before the game even starts because let's face it if you go one out of three you're in the Hall of Fame so I mean you know the odds are stacked Against The Hitter to begin with so you know that that's just the importance of throwing strikes and getting ahead of hitters and and having your pitching fundamentals you know I think uh something that's always stuck with me is what's a leak hit on the first pitch on first pitch strikes you know and everybody says oh they hit 300 they hit 290 they hit 320 when they actually hit o68 you know if you look at all the first pitch strikes thrown in baseball the last year or two The League average is like oh 68 on first pitch strikes so uh you know the hitters only want to count the balls put into play but the pitchers want to count all the first pitch strikes so you know you get those lopsided numbers and and now I'm a firm believer that if the League's hitting 0-68 on first pitch strikes why am I afraid to get ahead of a hitter you know when the counts oh oh the the other thing you said that that I think people it just made them go whoa is the O2 waist pitch like the idea of wasting a pitch when you have a hitter you know the back they're back against the wall um you go into your thought process on that it's very support what what's the hardest count to hit it I mean it's it's O2 right you can ask any hitter was the hardest count to hit in so make them hit you know that's my my you know my goal as a pitcher is to make you hit O2 if that's the lowest batting average in the game why am I going to waste a pitch and go to one two you know I mean uh I'm gonna try to make you hit O2 and if that's on this counter hit in it's also the easiest count to throw a strike in that got a lot of High School coaches thinking because every High School coach is is like you can't you know if you get a if you give up a hit on O2 someone's gonna go running and yeah yeah yeah I heard that yeah I heard that when I got to Atlanta Smokey gave up an O2 hit and Leo went ape [ __ ] on the bench and I'm over there looking at Leo going hey don't get mad at me when I give up my O2 hits and you know I got the typical old school answer ah you can't never give up a hit or two you should never you know do that O2 and and you know I just told Leo look I I mean I'm Gonna Leave the league in O2 hits but I'm also going to leave the league in O2 out so I mean you know there's there's going to be a little give and take with it and uh uh you know I really believe the less pitches the hit or sees during and at bat the better chance you have to get them out and that you know starts to stack up you know the second third and fourth fourth at bat against you as well so if you can limit the amount of pitches The Hitter sees you know his his first couple of bats during the game you're gonna have that slight Advantage when it comes you know for the seventh eighth and 9th the other thing so back in the day there was this philosophy of you start off with your fastball establisher fastball pitch off that today it's kind of flipped right like you have a lot of guys starting out with all their stuff yeah what do you think about that I think I think it takes a hitter two or three or four pitches before they're really on your fastball you know I think uh it's hard to go up there you're first at bat and be on the fastball so I think you know if you can get a hitter out with your fastball only the first time through the lineup I think that's a huge Advantage for you as the game goes on but you know at the same time you don't just want to be pumping heaters in there and hoping to fly out somewhere or hit a line drive with somebody so you know it's kind of that's where you have to use you know your feel for the game is your command what needs to be yet and and you know like I said it's it's really one pitch at a time and never to look too far ahead so that one pitch at a time thing is a Dorfman thing right um what did you learn from from dorphin because I mean I've obviously read his book I think he's fantastic and uh so how did he help you in your career uh you learn to trust yourself I think trust what you see trust what you remember uh own up to your bad decisions don't lie to yourself uh be honest with yourself uh those are the big things you know uh treat people the way you want to be treated stuff like that uh just just a lot of basic fundamental Common Sense stuff that somehow In the Heat of the Moment We tend to forget you know when the game speeds up and and you have that out of body experience you know you kind of just he clarifies the things you see during the course of the game and the emotions you might feel before the game how much of the game do you think is is mental uh there's a lot a lot of it's mental you know I think physically you have to be gifted enough to play the game but then you know mentally you have to be strong enough to get the most out of your ability and you know I think that takes practice it takes repetition uh you have to be aware of it when you make a a mental mistake so it doesn't happen again and you know it's hard to really put a number on it but you know if if everybody had the exact same amount of ability it would be a hundred percent mental after that but there are differences and and skills with players and all that so you know but it's up there it's pretty high the most talented physically among the uh the brave starters back in the day uh Andrew Jones chipper for call you know I think those guys you know we're just a little chipper just a better hitter better eyesight better thinker had a great memory could remember what pitchers did to him and back in school training during the middle of the Season uh Andrew Jones was just incredibly sneaky fast and gifted and strong and no for call had the great arm the great range the great speed you know those three guys come to mind Brian Jordan was that way too Brian Jordan could cover all kinds of ground in the Outfield and hit with power so uh you know we had a lot of great players over there over you know I mean I was there for over a decade we had a ton of great players and what about the the pitchers was it I mean I don't want you to give smoltzi any shout outs because his head will get bigger right well yeah or balder one or the other was probably the most talented pitcher we had as far as like in today's game with the velocity and the spin rates and and you know the command and all that I mean he had a you know he threw mid 90s had a just a nasty slider could throw a fork ball could throw a knuckleball there wasn't a pitch Infinity couldn't throw uh you know probably easily schmaltzy you know I thought Kevin Millwood had great stuff he was tough to see hard to see off of uh glavin blabbin had late Funk that you just couldn't see it I think uh you know back in Atlanta you know the first 10 days of spring training when it was just pictures only we would talk to each other so you know we would throw our live BP to the other pitchers and vice versa we'd grab a bat and then you'd get to go hit off these guys and and uh you know the one thing about glad was you saw the ball pretty good but it did something the last 10 feet and that's what she didn't see and he seemed to always catch it off the end a little bit and uh he had the late Funk so you know everybody had their own little thing that they did pretty good interesting because Wagner said uh Billy Wagner said if John Smoltz was a closer his entire career he would have been the greatest closer of all time and he had no doubt about it like he was like he was amazing yeah he probably would have been because you know again he was the most gifted it wouldn't surprise me one bit uh uh Eckersley as great a closer as he was I mean he started the first half of his career too so I mean uh you know I think Randy Johnson had a chance to be one of the greatest closers ever too and Roger Clemens you know had those kind of closers I mean uh uh why wouldn't some of the best pitchers also be some of the best closers yeah absolutely where do you stand so bringing up Clemens um where do you stand on the Hall of Fame candidacy of Clemens and bonds well you know obviously you know with the steroids if they took them you know they shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame if they didn't take them they 100 should be in the Hall of Fame you know I think uh uh everybody assumes that they took them uh you know I thought they were Hall of Famers if they did take them before they took them if they never took them then they're getting screwed big time they should be in the Hall of Fame uh you know you can't have there's too many players that that played the game clean that are in the Hall of Fame and it would kind of taint what they accomplished you know so I I kind of understand how you can't have players that took steroids in the Hall of Fame you know and what kind of example is that set for the Youth today you know it's you know it just it says it's okay to cheat and you know it's not you know you always hear that if you're not cheating you're not trying you know that's that's you know that's not what good players do good players go out there and find a way to win the right way you had one of the all-time great quotes about Barry Bonds about him being the easiest guy to pitch to yep 100 he was because if it mattered you just walked him I mean it's not hard to throw four pitches you know in the in the in the right-handed Hatters box yeah Leo said the saying he's like there is a point where bonds you just couldn't do anything against him yeah he's locked in I mean he uh I mean offensively one of the most incredible years ever and uh you know you learn to beat lineups and not hitters you know I think with with Barry Bonds was a good example of that I think Mark McGuire is an example of that Tony Gwen was an example of that uh Gary Sheffield Mike Piazza you know there's just certain guys you know you got to get 27 out so you got to pick your fights accordingly you know I don't have to get I have to get 27 outs I don't have to get Berry bonds out four times I just I keep them in the park so I think that was uh the main objective say facing somebody like him was if I don't give a home run I win is it fair to say that Tony Gwynn was kind of the Greg Maddox of hitting uh well it's not fair to Tony uh yeah he was just a good peer hitter I mean he uh he was hard to get off balance very hard to get off balance and uh incredible eyesight you know best back control of you know probably anybody that that we played against and uh but you know if you got the other eight guys out and kept him in the park you know you're probably going to get a win against the Padres today it one of the things I I heard Jake Peavy say that you told him the biggest lesson he learned was before you get on the rubber know what pitch you're gonna throw and have absolute conviction in it do you remember that conversation and how big a deal is that uh it's huge you know especially if you're calling your own game I think that's one of the problems with you know why you don't see pictures having a little more success today with the amount of talent they have is because you know they got the earpiece in and the catcher is telling them what to throw and you know kids nowadays the kids were seen playing in the big leagues today didn't call their own games in high school or college and I think they're used to having somebody else call their games for them so the conviction the condition's not the same when you do it yourself you know if I if if you know what the hitter is going to hit and you know we can't hit then it's real easy to be con it's really to have conviction and uh you know that's kind of that was kind of the whole thing what you're always trying to figure out with your pitch selection and I think you know I think the majority of the pitchers today are just throwing what the catcher puts down so if you had a pitch com now now they actually let pitchers call pigeons some guys are doing that like you'll see like Frankie doing it you would do that right 100 percent 100 percent and then you so you did you're all how hard was it for a catcher to get on the same page as you uh not hard it wasn't hard at all I think uh you know it's not hard plus you can always cross them up you know if they're not I didn't really throw it you know towards the end I didn't really throw hard enough to uh hurt anybody and I could cross up catchers and they had no problems catching it and throwing it back so uh you know I think my last two years I only gave location there was no pitch for a sign it was just inside or outside I mean I had three pitches so just catch it and throw it back and they were all okay with that interesting I did not know that yeah yeah now there was a point and I hesitate to ask this but I did see at one point and I've tweeted it at one point too there was um something with I think it was Javi where you got into it I think he might have called a pitch you didn't like and you were just like why would you why would you call that I mean you had to think did you do some of those teaching moments for catchers uh no I I always I I looked at it this way if if I'm Javi Lopez okay uh I'm catching glavin Smoltz Avery six ties out of the bullpen um trying to hit I've got all this stuff that I have to do and as a starting pitcher I'm pitching every fifth day so what am I doing the other four days okay I'll take care of the pitch selection and then you know my catchers they only had to do two things they had to set up right and try to hit a home run that was it you know I mean that's all I wanted him to do was set up or at a good Target and and all handle the game calling do you do you remember a specific best pitch you ever threw um there's there's one that stands out you know I had a game I think it was my second year I was uh it was the 11th inning Bases Loaded 3-0 count Luis alcee was hit and I threw strike one strike two and I knew I should have threw him a change up when the count got to 3-2 but because the bases were loaded I was afraid to walk them and I threw the fastball gave up a base hit uh two runs scored I gave up another he had ended up losing the game three to nothing and I said if I ever get in that situation again I'm gonna throw a change up and about four or five years later in San Francisco same situation I was winning one to nothing in the eighth inning had Dave Martinez three two through the change up got the swing and a miss and you know it was like you know you learn from your mistakes you know you learn from your mental mistakes we were talking about earlier and that was one I made and I was I had to wait like four or five years to try to correct it and you know it was it always helps when it works too absolutely there was one pitch I remember and this was in the Eric Gregg game um where you threw a two simmer to uh I think it was Moises Aloo the back door maybe it was yeah yeah that pitch was absolutely nasty and I I will say uh The Hitter before I don't know he must have hit a ground ball but that ball was scuffed so bad it had like a little bit of a hole on the side of it and you know back then you know if you got a ground ball to short you got the ball back and you got to use that ball the next hitter now as soon as the ball touches the ground they give you a new one but uh yeah that was just a case where the ball had a scuff on it and uh you know that's why you have to learn how to use the scuff when you get one so explain this to people because I think that's a great Point um the ball how do you make a ball move with a scuff uh well as a rule it's just opposite the side of the scuff yep so if if you want to sync it obviously you want I'm right-handed so I want the ball you know facing the left-handed batters box and then you just go ahead and launch it and throw it the way you'd normally throw it and you just get a little more sink on it but uh yeah I remember that pitch because uh I couldn't wait to use the to keep using the ball and I think the next hitter came up and fouled out the first one out of play and it was like okay well okay all things are fair again it was one of those pitches that I I was going back through games and I saw it I was like it just broke it like broke the internet when they saw it they're like what is Greg Maddox doing how did this ball do that yeah that's why it's illegal scuff baseballs because if you if you could scuff balls like that you'd be able to throw that pitch every time yeah that would be a little unfair yeah I know that you were working with Bryce Elder on a cutter do you like the way he throws generally is he one of those guys that you would watch and say hey this guy's got a little bit of Greg Maddox in him yeah same type of fastball uh I don't think he throws a cutter to be honest with you I think he could use a cutter yeah that's what yep but uh you know would really complement is fastball you know that's it goes back to what we talked about earlier with uh Nick Fisher you know he was swinging that Sinker and got a cutter I mean it works and uh it's hard for the hitters to pick that up and uh he does have the same type fastball I saw him pitch once or twice this year and uh obviously it's a lot faster than mine but it had the same it had the same type depth on it I think his mind did you remember how fast the fastest pitch you've ever thrown was uh I was 93 94 back when I was first coming up you know everyone says I didn't throw hard you know when I signed I threw hard I threw I threw as hard as anybody on my team and uh you know but I did also learn growing up that movement was more important than location and I also learned that movement was more important than velocity and changing speeds was more important than velocity location was more important than velocity you know I learned I learned those things back in high school and very fortunate uh I had a pitching coach that was kind of an older guy Ralph Meader that had been around a while he had he had taught Mike Morgan my brother a couple other guys from Vegas and uh you know he always preached movement over velocity you know he said you'll throw hard enough to get drafted but in order to have success you're going to have to learn how to make the ball sink and run and uh you know back then he changed my arm angle a little bit I wasn't so over the top and uh started getting more movement on the ball and uh very fortunate to have him in my past do you do you think that you can teach somebody command it to me command seems like one of the harder things to teach yeah it's kind of running fast you know you it's it's you can't really teach somebody how to run fast but you can teach somebody how to run a little bit faster you know I think uh commands like a pick-off move some pictures have really good pickoff moves and and some don't uh can you learn a better move yes command kind of the same way I think you can do things to improve command but actually sit there and teach it that's that's that's a hard thing to do is it speaking of of pick-off moves and stuff you're obviously one of the greatest Fielding pitchers of all time I mean all those gold gloves and stuff number one how much pride do you take in that number two why why were you that good of field well I uh you know like most guys I played shortstop in high school shortstop in center field so I was a filter uh it's important to win you know I I always felt like if if I could if I could have 90 total chances and make all 90 plays that's 30 scoreless Innings right there so what's that do to your era your Innings pitched your one loss record over the course of the season so you know I took pride in it I I believe that every time the pitcher touches the ball it should be an out you know and uh I think the little things add up and you know filled in your position correctly will add up and it it's going to help you and your team win more games one of the other things that showed your incredible athleticism was that slide at home plate that always comes up like once a year you see it where you you know the little head fakety what's up with that I don't know I don't know one of those things I can't believe the coach sent me I was up by 30 feet because those and uh uh I knew I missed home plate I was just going to act like I touched it in case you know they didn't see it and then you know when the catcher came at me I just I don't know I just kind of reacted and uh you know I think if you do that nowadays you might be called for being out of the Baseline but back there there was no Baseline established behind home plate I think now if you overrun whole plate you re-establish a baseline so I think uh uh they might have changed that role over the years you also had that famous uh the the the fake throw to get was it millage at home plate I think it was who was that oh yeah yeah I mean you know I didn't feel like I had to play it first so you know I felt like you get a pretty aggressive base runner back there I think you know why not try to make something happen and you know he bit he bit and it worked and uh you know you see it all the time he very rarely does it work you just need the right base runner out there for it to happen so I I was interviewing two of your friends I think they're your friends um Glendon rush and and Rich Hill oh yeah yeah absolutely yeah and they told some stories that like you seem like a fine upstanding individual but they were telling stories about like how you would chart the number of days you went to the weight room by putting a booger on the wall and stuff like that you wouldn't do that would you uh people like to make stuff up as time goes by you know uh it seemed like uh you know if if somebody peed on somebody in the shower I got blamed on it freaking two years later like all of a sudden that person didn't do it I must have done it so uh I took the blame for a lot of stuff and still do I mean I still hear stories and and I don't remember that story that way but uh no I didn't throw a lot of boogers on on the weight chart I have a new one who said that Russia or dick Hill I believe that was rushed it said that yeah he made that up he made that up I'm gonna make sure that he knows that that story is not true and I never want to hear that again out of him maybe I'll shoot them a text and say what's up with the bugger story did that really happen I don't remember doing that I mean not saying I didn't do it but I certainly don't remember doing it yeah and then and then dick Mountain told the story about charting farts or something like that at a Dugout that's what we do I mean that's that's a way to have fun with the game and kill time and you know you're you're counting pitches and guys are going off around you left and right so you might as well start counting those as well so we did do that and uh I will say that Glendon Rush was probably one of the best at winning that game that day and uh he is really to this day the only pitcher to start a game and win the fart game on the same day I think he went like five or six Innings that day and came back last three and rallied and I don't know who he passed to win the game but he did he I think he got a star put on his locker that day he said I mean that's that's some that's some Talent yeah yeah so I mean you know some guys are very talented at weird things and you know Russia's rushy's at the top list um going back in the day I did a little short on you uh hitting Jose Canseco which is a psycho move by the way like who the hell does that um that like I'm usually okay with someone saying it slipped that didn't slip did it no way that's well here's the thing Walt Weiss got hit twice that game and you know it's it's it's the tired American League it's like the pitcher doesn't have to hit so it's like you can't wait to get the pitcher because he's never going to come up there and hit and uh uh Walt was pretty pissed and and uh you want me to do anything and he said yeah so it's like you know it was just sticking up for your teammate it was nothing about Jose Canseco he was just he was just up at the you know the the the the moment of the game dictated when somebody was going to get hit and uh it just happened to be him but that was that was where you know you need you really need the respect to your teammates playing behind you and Walt played as hard as anybody for us at shortstop and and uh he wanted to pay back so you're happy to oblige yeah because I I saw you do an angry hand lick afterwards too like Jose looked at you he's a big dude like I wouldn't want to F with him no I didn't no last thing I want to do is have him freaking come charging after me but you know Jose's Pro he he understands the game and and you know it's one of those situations where if he needs to go charge somebody needs to charge the pitcher that he'll walk twice now he he later on I think was on a plane with you and said I'm on a plane with Greg Maddox and and he won't even look at me or something like that okay you know how you know some you know somebody but you don't recognize him yep it was it was one of those like no I don't think that's him who is I think you know I thought he was a football player like where do I know this guy from and uh but I've known it was him I would have loved to have talked to him on the plane because I think he sat like you know he was an aisle or two away from me it would have been nice to go over and talk to him even talk to him about that game you know and just kind of hear his take on it and you know maybe he didn't hear what I had to say about it yeah yeah I mean I think he handled it well I think both the all handled it well like there was yeah what else that's that's baseball you know that's baseball you know if the if we were if we were in Atlanta as soon as that picture came up he would have freaking wore one and then it would have been done you know would have been over with and uh Jose wouldn't have had to get hit do you think do you think lose something from the game without pitchers hitting in that like knowing how filthy it is or how hard it is to hit or how sequencing Works do you think hitting helps you know that 100 100 uh you learn a lot about pitching when you go up there and try to hit off guys I think uh you know the biggest thing is you learn how your eyes work you know and and how you recognize pitches or don't recognize pitches and uh I know there were very few curveballs that I that I could recognize and I know why I recognized them and uh you know some of them I just couldn't see them at all and just would swing and miss you know over and over again so uh uh yeah you do learn a lot how well do hitters recognize spin you think uh if they're actually swinging and trying to hit I don't think they see it that good you know I think they see angles they see deliveries uh I think they see Tendencies You know I remember uh playing cards with chipper one day at four o'clock in the afternoon and he said if this guy throws me a 1-0 change up I'm gonna take him deep to left Center and sure about the second at bat the count was 1-0 we threw him a change up and he took him deep to left Center I don't necessarily think he saw spin on a change up I thought he was just sitting and change up and you know he's good enough to hit it out to the opposite field so uh you know I know if I'd looked for a slider and got a slider I don't know if I saw the spin but I do know if they threw me a fastball I would have been way late trying to hit it gotcha and did you ever try you did try to Tunnel it like you're one of the original tunneling guys like you would make your pitches kind of look the same on the way to home plate and let the movement do the work type of thing yeah exactly you know I imagine a brick about 10 feet out of my hand and if I could throw it through that brick 10 feet out of my hand it ended up in three different places I thought then uh you know be tough on the hitter to recognize the pitch that's coming gotcha well let's go over some Pitch grips because I know so I was talking to Manny Ramirez last night I had a a FanDuel thing and he said I want to know how Greg Maddox made the ball move the way he did like it was cartoon Wiffle ball stuff so let's let's see these pitch grips it's just basic two scene just two seamer let's raise that up a little bit more by your head so we can see yeah see that there yep just a two seamer like everybody throws you know I think uh the key to thrown a two seamer is to have an athletic delivery and good alignment depending on which side of the plate you're throwing to I think a lot of guys go like this when they throw arm side two seamers and when they try to throw a two seamer away or glove side they go like this and they don't throw it the same way they aim it with their hand so you know I think you know one of my keys was that this is my delivery when I go away I got to get over here and throw it the same way so I think that's how I was able to make it sink on both sides of the plate and I think when you explain that the picture that have a hard time throwing it glove side I think they they get it and they really start to improve on that did you do anything spent like what finger did it come off of did you do anything unusual hopefully it came off my middle finger you know I try to throw it off my middle finger and I threw my cutter off my index finger and threw it like a slider you know and right there and just launch it and uh change up I try to throw off my ring finger okay and you did you pronate it at all did you like turn it over or was it just off your ring you you pronate without trying to pronate so I didn't try to increase the prolimination I just tried to be out make a nice athletic throw like like you see a shortstop make across the Enfield gotcha and let's see the so move it a little bit more towards your head so everybody can see these grips we've got that's the uh two seats okay now cutter is the same thing cutter spider okay so you're using your so it's four seconds you throw a slider off your ring finger or your middle finger right and you pull down on it yep well if you do it on your index finger you can't pulls down as much and you know you just it just cuts it doesn't doesn't really go down so and then if you want to really get specific with it if it is going down then you know it's like a ball go up you got to drop your arm down a little bit so you would drop your elbow down just a little bit and hope the hitter doesn't pick it up I have never heard that description of a cutter throwing it off your your basically your your pointer finger instead of your yeah it's basically it's basically a hard slider it's it's a very hard aggressive slider that you're not trying to make it break too much it's like if we were bullying and yeah you know we're we're hooking it you know we're throwing a nice little you know a nice little draw in there and then we get a 10 pin and you know you're still gonna hook it a little but you got to throw it harder and and hook it less and you know that's that was kind of my philosophy on a cutter it was you gotta You Gotta Throw it hard and you know make sure you turn it in gotcha and let me reverse your hand on it just so everybody can see where your fingers are on the uh by your head let's right there yeah now let's turn it the other way I wanna I just want to see where the alignment is on the on the seams gotcha okay gotcha but it's not how you hold it it's how you throw it so you know you can hold it this way if you want you know you can grab that seam there if you want you just gotta you know toy around with it till you find out you know what works best for you well I think you make a great point because everybody looks at pitch grips and they're like oh that's your pitch grip but it's how you release it that is the trick yeah yeah yeah do you close off you know close off a little bit on your slider and breaking ball and open up a little bit on your Sinker and change up which of those do you think was your best pitch between uh change up cutter two seam uh I think they were all pretty you know might might obviously my two serum was probably my best pitch because I was able to locate it and you know you got to have a fastball to pitch uh very few pitchers can pitch off the breaking balls there are some but very few can do it uh so you know fastball but I just think you know they would all compliment one another you know the cutter complimented the Sinker and the Sinker complemented the change up and and nothing beats location if you throw the ball where you're trying to throw it that trumps everything where did you learn the front hip two simmer because that seems like a pitch that you have to have a lot of trust in because if you don't do it right it may get hammered or you're going to hit somebody well you know that's one of those myths you know you can't throw a lefty down and in that's where they like it and uh you know I threw it in the minor leagues and I would strike a guy out and I was here nice pitch and not give up a home run and I would hear you can't do that you're never supposed to ever try to do that again and then uh I watch Hershiser do it in the big leagues and I said well if Hershey's if Hershiser can do it in the big leagues that's a pitch I can throw I'm gonna throw it so sometimes you have to be your own coach and realize that you know you're probably the best coach you're ever going to have and you better learn to trust what you see and Trust what you know you can and can't do did you have a good relationship with herschheiser because obviously everyone remembers the little standoff after uh was it Eddie Murray that that uh you know got that pit he got upset about it and Hershey came out there and said I got a ball too or whatever he said yeah yeah he was yeah he was being tough guy out there uh actually real good relationship always had a ton of respect for him and uh never really talked to him a whole lot until the last couple years you know he lives in Vegas now oh cool and ran into him at a you know see him out at dinner once or twice a year and uh got to talk to him a little bit when I was with the Dodgers that one year and uh always had a ton of respect for him admired what he was able to do on the mound and uh you know he was he was a pitcher you know he was a pitcher and you know he was a guy that used his fastball the first time through it was curveball the second time through and his change up the third time through and uh you know he was one of those guys that you alluded to earlier and uh just a really good pitcher and somebody that I think young teachers can learn from yeah I mean he's also a great analyst too I mean listening to do games he does a really good job I think yeah he knows baseball yeah what is the the one record you're proud of uh gold gloves 15 wins over 17 consecutive season what is the what is your thing uh well obviously the World Series ring is the most you know is the best accomplishment you know I think uh you know to share that with your teammates your city your neighbors you know your family all that stuff obviously the World Series is up there number one and you know there's a lot of you know there's a lot of close seconds you know I think uh probably the five home runs pretty cool yeah got to bring that up right that's pretty cool you know I hit as many home runs as smoltzy although he doesn't believe it but it happened uh you know just uh you know I think I'm pretty proud of the fact that I felt like I got the most out of my ability I think that was always the goal was to go out there and always continue to try to get better and get the most out of your ability and and that's something I I thought I was pretty good at even in the last couple of years when you know I was topping out at 83 and 84 miles an hour is there a guy today that you really love watching pitch like you know you have shohei you have uh I mean you know degrom who's been hurt but is there a guy that you know like yeah obviously all the good ones you know Kershaw I had a chance to play with him I think he's one of the few guys left that I actually played with you know I enjoy watching him pitch you know all the good ones Verlander Grom you know uh uh just you know just mostly the good ones I don't watch as much baseball as as I would like you know I think being retired you kind of uh probably watch too much Netflix and not enough live sports you know I'm looking forward to Football starting I'll watch a lot of I'll watch the NFL and that kicks back up here shortly but uh you know I just admire the guys that that do it the right way and and you know I admire the guys that go out there and and win games try to win games instead of just try to you know throw it North somewhere in the batting cage as hard as I can gotcha so let's talk a little bit about what Chase is doing because I thought it was really cool trying to help out young players um give a little bit of background and he does have a discount code that I would get my butt kicked by Chase if I don't give it it's NBC pitching ninja you get 10 off yeah he's just starting out you know he uh uh you know I'm happy for him he loves baseball you know he uh uh played six years at UNLV I think he had a cover deer and a red shirt here and uh he likes coaching he's very coachable he he knows a game he understands the game uh he he knows what it's like to not be the uh uh first guy offers Scholarship office high school team you know I think he was about the seventh or eighth guy off his team to the place to play somewhere when he was going through it and uh uh it's a good way for him to stay in the game uh uh help out younger kids uh also offer some some coaching he uh actually he's actually a really good coach believe it or not I know UNLV uh I would give him one or two pitchers hey man why don't you take these guys today I gotta go do something else and uh he always seemed uh he's got a good eye for it and understands what pitchers need to have success on the mound and uh you know if he's able to translate that to some high school kids and and get them kick-started on their college career you know I think it'd be a good investment for the parents to go ahead and do that yeah I think it's great I think it's also great for somebody who's been through it to want to give back and say these are the hard things that I had to deal with maybe I can make it a little less tough for somebody else yeah absolutely you know anytime somebody's been there done that it you'd be a fool not to listen to him if that's something you're about to go through you know I know I was lucky enough to have my brother uh kind of Be My Mentor in those types of spots you know he got drafted two years before me uh every place I was about to go he had already been there done that and I was able to rely on him and talk to him about you know whatever it took to have a little bit more success on the field what was it like coaching your kid I was great you know it was great it was the only time he listened to me you know we couldn't clean his room or or take out the trash but he would you know he would try to open up and get his arm on top and and try new grips and work on as a golf move you know and field and all that stuff so uh uh you know it was great working with him I wish I mean I wish I had you know a whole staff of guys like him it would just make coaching that that much more enjoyable yeah it was one of like I mean I coached my kid growing up too and it was one of those things like I tried to not talk to him during games because I knew like the only voice he would hear is mine oh well yeah I talked to mine I mean I tell him mom jokes between Innings so that was always me are any of them clean are you uh some of them were well great hey man it's been great talking with you I will let you run I'm sure you got to go play golf or something by the way my brother lives in Vegas and he is a card player he's a a professional poker player yeah be wary of those guys yeah exactly don't put that on the golf course I know that I won't get you into one of his games because it would it wouldn't be fun for you yeah no it wouldn't it wouldn't yeah those guys are good man uh you know I played a little poker growing up and uh I realized just how good those guys are yeah I mean it's a very math oriented game like it's it's math yeah yeah you talk about odds and probability and then they throw in the ability to reach somebody I mean uh it's up to beat yeah and kind of like well hopefully all right well thank you for thank you for coming on it's been a pleasure all right thanks for having me