LEP#200b - Ein Gespräch mit Jim Walmsley

[Music] Fe for Engish introduce him hello Jim wsy hey guys how's it going and happy to be here happy to have you yeah so I I think most runners will know know you but for for those uh two to three people that don't know you can you give us like a short introduction and maybe why you even started running okay um yeah I'm an American Ultra Trail Runner I run for Hoka and mahu um in the US I based out of Flagstaff Arizona um I started Ultra trail running maybe I mean the years are adding up I guess but uh 20145 is when I first started I had a background uh in University on the track from 2008 to 2012 so that's kind of how I grew up running and then um kind of started life but then discovered some trail running along the way and then started to get into that in 20145 um and then uh probably started to get in more steady training and the results kind of started to come at the end of 2015 and 16 and then uh 2016 I signed with a for a pro contract and then um now it's been a a crazy wild ride that has taken me all over the world and um I've won big races in uh like I guess in the US most notably Western States 100 mile I've won that three times and then I've um traveled many places and been very lucky to to experience many things but uh currently um almost exactly one year year ago I moved from the US to France um and I'm kind of trying to chase a dream of winning Ultra Trail Mount Blanca and um discovering that uh um kind of European French culture and and uh new racing scene over here how big was the culture shock in moving to France I didn't think it would be so bad but um the first time living in a place uh without speaking the language it's been a bit more different than I had expected how how did you uh go Offroad uh because you you did uh track and field in in I think high school or college and then um you were a a decent Road Runner too when when uh was the point you said oh okay uh I don't want to run the site walks in I think Phoenix that's a yeah that's a funny way to yeah exactly so I grew up in Phoenix Arizona and uh literally grew up just running straight roads on sidewalks next to very busy roads that are kind of yeah kind of terrible to run on um and the we have stop lights all over the city where I'm at and it's all like perfectly well 800 met apart um each light and so you can do just your perfect distance based off of how many stuff up lights you do it's kind of crazy um especially in retrospect of where I've taken running now um so yeah is Phoenix a kind of a board a city which which is City yeah um because I think people I mean maybe 1850 kind of started living there a bit it's it's I mean by European standards is brand new so um but everything is print European Standard yeah and then my dad is actually from Phoenix as well so he's seen it all it explode and now there's like four million people in that area but it's very Western us built it's spread out lots of driving big road very car Centric as opposed to walkable city um yeah very strange actually um um but I ran track in high school college and then um I actually went to University at the Air Force Academy in the US so I had to go into the military after University that's kind of how you pay back free school not really free um but that was kind of the agreement that I thought was a good idea um yeah it has pluses and minuses obviously but very obvious ones too but um interestingly enough it took me and I got stationed up in Montana and Montana I was kind of maybe I was 22 or so 23 and I thought my running career was done like I was too old I didn't make it I I didn't have an opportunity I wasn't fast enough to go like Chase uh Olympic standards or times or anything like that I think at 22 I walked away from the track like I guess the first time I broke 14 minutes in the 5K was in 2010 but um by the time I left in 2012 I my PR was 1352 so I didn't really knock a whole lot off of it there and I think there's interesting like mental plateaus on the track and doing the exact same course with the stopwatch that now in retrospect when you compare it to the trail and just the freedom of never comparing anything because the conditions are always so changing you can't NE like it's each its own performance it feels like it's unlocked a lot of my potential running wise mentally with how trail running Works compared to how the track I felt like I plateaued for a while um but I thought my running career was done in 2012 13 and when I was in the military so but I was up in Montana and um it's a really great outdoors kind of area place and for Discovery and adventure and um have big mountains big winter first time living in like true winter I had lived in Colorado for 4 years but um Montana I think operates a lot more European esque with uh more revolving Hobbies with the seasons um where in Phoenix it's either we say it's spring or summer there's nothing in between like it's sunny 330 days out of the Year something so you don't pick up many water sports or winter sports growing up there um and so I started kind of discovering like some hiking and then realized well I could just run this and do three hikes instead of one hike today and so I kind of started running some of them like oh people actually do this for a little bit of the sport like people in Montana are weird but I guess I could get into this and then I started doing some short trail races and I thought like oh yeah the short Trail Races should be where like the best Runners are racing in like this event that has three different distances so I'd go do the short Trail race and i' just I'd smash it but then I'd be like man I didn't get to race the guys I wanted to race like why are they in the longer one like this makes no sense to me and basically in the track I almost think I mean the 100 meters kind of the top of the pyramid where the biggest stars are going to be us same bolts on the 100 meter line and for the most part it almost you can kind of theoretically trickle it down from there and as you're slower and slower you have to run further and further and it's almost punishment to have to run the 10K um but obviously at an Olympic level every body's like extremely fast and uh the competition is quite good but um I guess I I was never that level so I was just kind of more or less the slower kid to some degree and then uh get into trail running thinking like Oh I'm a fast kid now I'm going to be in the short race and then you realize all right all the fast guys do the long races and um yeah and then that kind of open the door into uh I guess I got uh I I left the milit and just had to figure out what I want to do with life um it kind of ended abruptly um uh and I had to figure out I guess the three choices I kind of had was uh put a job resume together and apply for jobs um put U like a resume together to apply for more school or um go move to a mountain town and get a job at a bike shop or Running Shop and I chose the default and I got a job at a bike shop and Flag Staff and kind of moved back there and was just like I'm GNA I I kind of committed to myself that running was making me happy it was a really good outlet for me and that I was going to try trail running until I was 30 um so that would be like the next five years of this is what I wanted to take some time in my life to do for me um and then little did I know um after six months one year of kind of putting more time into it it it eventually became my my job and then I stepped away from the bike shop and uh kind of the more I put into it the more I got out of it and it's just been it's given me a lot yeah uh I I heard that that you um you you you did your your decision to go the the sport way and and go to a and you worked at a at a bike shop uh in Flex yeah and everyone who who look to to America uh and to the US and who is running there and who is running faster there is a a bunch of uh fast Runners coming out of Flagstaff is there kind of a um do you met there or everybody uh moved there to run or is it just something in the water um so I think I guess Flag Staff kind of became famous because there was a very famous coach um maybe 10 20 years ago that kind of set up a pre um Olympic altitude camp for marathon runners Jack Daniels and so in the early I Know Jack Daniels maybe that Jack Daniels I don't know but um he was a bit of a guru and an altitude like nut and he kind of just I I would say at least from my knowledge and where it comes from him plus the university there has always been historically good so um combination it's really grown to be um a big mecca for marathoners and road runners and then there was actually the current Western States Champion Rob Kar or he had won it two years in a row he was based out of Flagstaff so you start connecting the dots you go ah it might be okay and then a big draw for me personally was um so originally from Phoenix when I moved away from mon Montana actually I moved back with my parents for three months I think um maybe a little less and I started looking for places to move up to Flagstaff from there and it's only two two and a half hour drive from where my parents live but my parents live in a desert almost uh maybe two 300 meters altitude whereas a Flagstaff I was living at 2,200 meters so you change climate you change uh everything and it's kind of it has all these really nice dirt roads through just uh very pretty ponderosa pine trees um so just a stereotypical forest and it's just kind of grown and grown and grown and then I move there I get a bit of success so and then I start connecting with some people that I became friends with and then we had our little running group um that was training a lot and they have some success so then all of a sudden it builds and builds and it kind of becomes more of a known hot spot and but it's been a cumulative thing of everybody wanting to get up at altitude and if you look at it in the US it's so far south um the weather is really mild for how high of elevation we are um because we still get snow that we still have a ski resort but um all things considered you the winter is very mild for over 2,000 meters plus um you can always drive 30 40 minutes and basically there's never snow that low so um there's always somewhere to keep training and then track runners even like it for uh sleeping high and then they'll drive a lot and they'll drive down with Sedona and Cottonwood and uh do workouts at lower altitude so so so you're in that way you're very familiar to move places where you're where that best fits your training in in in to to best support your training best support your races was that also like the decision to to move to France because I mean in the US you basically won Western City three times and there was like it was like a big thing back then because you claimed you that you can win that in a certain time or whatnot and now you have the same thing with utmp in a way you want to be the I oppose the first America American to win that so was that like Al like the same decision to come to French to actually train where the the fast people train that win timb yeah I mean uh um a bit it obviously played a factor it it helps like UTMB is in Shaman it's it goes through three countries but true and true it's a French race it's ran by a French organization the rules are very French and everything with it so um that was a big deciding factor however um I mean the without a doubt the biggest thing was being kind of over the years connecting with Francois de and then him just going hey I found this rental house just up the street from me uh would you maybe this could work and then looking at a place to jump from the US to France and not speaking good enough French at the time it was really really challenging to find a place to live especially like really in the mountains as opposed to in a city so um all of a sudden it's like yeah I'm living pretty much next door to franois on the same Hillside and uh just um yeah but I mean if you're going to mimic anyone for UTMB I mean still I I think France has it so well dialed and his approach to it and his kind of endurance throughout the event um I would say Killian's probably more talented as far as how he's been able to apply it but true dedication to ultra I still think France W's the best that's what the other option would be to move to Norway but I mean that's maybe a little bit but a guy from the desert maybe it's a little too far but now that I've been in France maybe I can imagine Norway a bit and maybe in 10 more years Norway is quite warm so know that's the first step first train like fren then train like Killian and then you can really win UTP like five times or so and then and and then you all move to Denmark hey they have the current tour of FRS Champion right now yeah Mark's not so bad he's he's amazing at high altitude big mountains from Denmark maybe we on to something but in the meantime I mean you you also do run the the world championship um first and obvious question why is is it why why why run the world champions yeah so I mean first you I think you kind of look at the the year and you try to put together a schedule and for me last year and this year it was working backwards from the date that UTMB is so you look at that and you try to see what's two months before it is your your first real big push and then two months before that because I like maybe two races to lead into my primary goal um that's generally how I've approached Western States and it's kind of worked out well however I've also very much been obvious that UTMB is not western states in many many ways but um I still like the idea of having a really big training block to prepare for something quite a bit earlier than UTMB so you're not coming into just a brand new fresh block and it's your first race in August like that's not so good so um two races really jumped out I mean One race I've always wanted to do is lavero at the end of June um always running western states it always conflicts with lavero and I mean the Italian dolomites I haven't spent actually I got to stay there one or two nights on the way to Croatia earlier this year but for the most part I have not explored it and it seems like one of the the gems of the world I I ran it once like five or six years ago LA and I can say it's it's it's one of the most beautiful races I ever run yeah so another reason to check out that area if you run lavaro I think you should take your photo uh camera with you yeah it might I'll take a small one yeah a small one but I mean the GoPros these days are they're not that big so I mean yeah I can just put it on my head too yeah or you have to this insta 360s you can even put it on the shirt and you would even know this yeah not bad and when you already have to carry 6 kilograms of backpack it's not so much never mind yeah but so that was one it's still on my bucket list of kind of races to do um but then even discovering a couple races here the profiles become pretty interesting so just being in France I've discovered more about the the Maxi race which is at the end of this month and then um uh Marathon Deon Blanc uh the 90k also seems really intriguing but it worked out that the World Championships were also in June so that became part of the factor and then they announced the course pretty early um so I started digging into kind of the course profile and the more I looked at it the more I'm like this looks really badass it it's got big climbs it's got a ton of ver I think they completely are sandbagging people and they underestimated the amount of that's actually on the course CU When you upload the GPX I haven't been able to replicate 5,500 meters it's always over 6,000 I'm like oh they're sandbagging us like for for Americans it's very typical European to oh soor but maybe not so German like oh we missed the numbers a little bit but uh it looks really interesting um course profile um and then it's additionally like two or three weeks more time MH than Vero would be and I think if you look at some of the people that have done lavero UTMB it's been that kind of weird turnaround and I've experienced it with western states where um when you're coming back from the the race at the end of June and you have eight weeks exactly you start training and you're you start finding the best fitness all season and you're everything's going phenomenal maybe six weeks out but then it just drags on another week or two and then additionally in the past traveling from the US to um Europe it it uh essentially um you the time zone change I it's just things didn't fall into place on race day so it's always been a bit weird so in the past when I've kind of looked at other people trying to do lavero on the turnaround it seems like it's just energy-wise it's a little tight it's you either want it a little more or a little less because people have done really well with four weeks turn around which is pretty interesting um especially the Hard Rock UTMB double many people have replicated that now and it's yeah it's quite interesting and you kind you kind of find that grooving the energy and the fitness about four weeks after 100 miles so even experimenting with some bigger efforts four weeks after 100 miles I've started to do the last couple years and yeah it's interesting when you you find a good so hard rock and UTB are four weeks apart from each other about four or six yeah something that's just PE people I mean Francois gotten itlian Courtney um zavier tards had really good success with the double um I guess not many people in the world have ever done Hard Rock only a couple people get in every year but nonetheless the people that do the double it's it's not bad yeah but I mean other than that it's it's still a world championship was it also like a factor that that you could become world champion at rail running which is I think if you compare it to like utmp is not as important maybe nowadays but maybe in the future but was it also like some that Drew you in a little bit it's interesting because yeah when you try to find like Define the world championship in our sport um it doesn't really have a neat place that everybody respects as like the world championship there are a lot of people missing at this world championship I mean even amongst Americans um most of the top Americans will be doing Western States not trying to to be on the world championship team so it's always kind of got this how does it fit in um I think at least from my observation last year or yeah last year I think was the first time that the world Trail championships was held at the same time as the world Trail champ or World Mountain running championships so I think consolidating these races it gave it a lot more attention in a bigger microphone that at least was observable from my perspective and this will be the second time and then um so I think that's a really big step in trying to make it a world championship um be just making it more visible and more important essentially because when it's more visible more important it becomes more prestigious and if it's more then it will hold the name but I think in years past it just hadn't quite held that Prestige but you'd because even with the World Championships five 10 years ago you'd see a world Championship every weekend is what it felt like and you're like I don't even know what these mean but at least consolidating it on the same week um I think it was a very very important um step forward and I think without adding an ultra distance you're not going to you're going to um leave out a huge part of the sport because again like my introduction to trail running was the first thing was like no one cares about the short distance like you need to move up yeah that's not the case like the true classic since Mountain running stuff is quite organized it's quite historic you go back Sierra an Al Zama um some of these races they're they have incredible depth and history to them that is very interesting but I think as an American kid you don't get the opportunity to go do those things so there's a disconnect of like our biggest things are going to be more like 100 mile or 50 mile races um so that's kind of where I started learning um what to shoot for and I think even from a um um from a um people watching it's it's also different to differentiate between Mountain running and and old the trade Runnings it's still running it's still running up and down mountains I mean they nowadays they still have uh different rules how how each country nominates their the athletes so it's still a little bit not completely like integrated um but I think different and there are different organizations because we we learned that the the trail running Championship uh came out of the ultra running uh Championship which was on on on road and the mountain running was always the mountain running like that they had a a vertical or uphill and up and down and now they are different organizations but at least they are in one week and it's one one thing and and this this from from short uh uh uphill let's say vertical to the to the ultra uh distance I think it it uh uh it yeah it it makes a a bigger microphone and you have the the middle distance maybe it has to yeah to to shape a bit like the well it's still a Marathon distance which is quite aing like uh maybe then it's it's it's also good for for people who run at the uh Golden Trail World Series this the 30 40K uh is races so everybody has his uh his Focus but it's good and bad if you want everyone to do the same but at the same time um I don't have as much interest to do a 12K Trail mountain race yeah yeah and then I find the vertical course kind of interesting um what are your guys' thoughts on it because it starts with almost a flat kilometer yeah yeah but but but uh we we talked to the to the organizator uh organizational crew and they said uh the the first kilometer they they um do this because they wanted it to start in the city so so there is a lot of there's a big crowd and it's it's it's a fun for everybody to to see the the the runners go out there and then they got to hike up the hill and go bring the cowbells up to the top of the hill they don't have to to hike there is always uh some some cabin up there it's not the spirit though but I think but I think what what what in a way what they want to replicate is a little bit of a utmp feeling but if if you start at utmp and you run out of shamoni I mean it's I I I I got to experience it once and it's it's crazy how I mean I was I was in the last quarter or something and it's crazy how people cheer you on and and you're basically nobody and to to to of of sorts replicate that that's I think where they wanted to start in the in the in the cent of inbrook and then um move up to the mountain as fast as possible yeah I I think that's an important part of also going back to choosing the world championships as a races so you look at the timing the timing works out very nicely if you're peing later for another race at the UTMB series whether it's OCC CCC or UT tmb um so essentially you work backwards from that boom perfect timing and then secondly um it's easy to get to at inbrook plus it's so being European based I think um it's going to be really really competitive I mean worst case scenario now it's a it's 10 hours from the US or it's 10 hours from Africa or I don't know how far it is from China or Japan um yeah but there are uh direct flights to Austria and uh there is a there's a airport in inbrook in the city I think there's there's a big reason that in my opinion many really great developed sports are kind of european-based and um I think maybe me moving here is a bit of a realization that uh a lot of the events that I want to be racing um are are favorable to be based in Europe and not traveling back and forth for many reasons but but from a from an American perspective what do you think we need to happen other than maybe scheduling and not colliding with with the western states to get the world championship up and and make it more important so that maybe people would would choose it other instead of western states or something else yeah um to to make it a a real world champion like like we still have a good team um and there even some good Runners that aren't doing Western States and they're not doing the World Championships still that aren't racing it from the US but the US is one country I think we still have a really good team starting off with me Zack Miller and Drew um hullman and and then we have a couple other guys that could potentially score um but I think that's a really strong three just to begin um yeah it's interesting um how you yeah it's always been a little bit of a trick within the US how to kind of draw the best Runners to go do the world championships and more or less it hasn't worked because the draw to go do Western States UTMB or a different Championship um ends up being uh bigger prestigious for your career than than a world championship but last year it kind of worked uh with timing being at the end of the year um but I guess for me personally um I was actually stuck in France and for Visa issues and we're actually hoping to have that completely finally resolved tomorrow but uh we'll see does it need to uh locate one time in the US the championship that it's uh it's more gets more media having a based in Europe is much better than having a based in the US the US you could host there and I wouldn't be surprised if there's just a couple people you you won't ever have that UTMB um atmosphere and a lot of it or you won't have the aesthetic course okay what you're able to do do um on a course like run it and the amount of people you're allowed to run on the mountains in Europe is just not allowed in the US they say oh this is forbidden it's it's never going to be the same if we run 500 people on this course today it will it will be gone forever the mountain will go away so um they don't allow it and then but in Europe they do it all the time and then in addition you have so many cities that are bigger populations that are close to mountains and essentially you also don't have people that mind hiking or maybe taking a cable car at least waking up early to go catch some some climb you you just get hundreds of more people going to do that as opposed to in the US you definitely get super fans and there's really great supporters but the atmosphere is not replicated in the US the same way it is in Europe and I think most places in the world I mean Europeans are they love sport they love fans and they love go cheering on something that's ridiculous like Trail ultra running yeah that's is is is this the the main difference between the US and and Europe when it comes to to to trail running uh how you how you um how you see this from how how the races are set up how the people race is there a difference even uh in the in the way uh the organizers do this or you do this I mean there's a lot to unpack on the differences um there's a lot of differences uh some of the basic differences I find are firstly being that um many of the races in the US are permitted through the national forest that the US has so numbers are limited so that's why you see only 165 Runners at Hard Rock you see only6 or 365 at Western States they go through these wildernesses and these protected zones that they don't allow more people but it tends to be all the really cool places are protected that you can't host permitted races through like you can't do a race through the Grand Canyon it won't happen so it just ends up being a fkt fastest known time sort of thing as opposed to an organized race I mean a race on the grand Canon would be pretty insane it's it's an incredible stadium for something like that but uh yeah for I mean actually dangerous place too but then but then you raceing cross the grass Canyon and then is stuck behind a donkey I mean that be very hilarious in a race you might kind of Shuffle past he might not be so happy but uh racea yeah he might Shuffle past um but yeah you'll probably get stuck behind some uh they're mules not donkeys they're they're a hybrid between uh donkeys and horses yeah in the UK you stuck behind the Sheep so where's the difference I don't know in bton where I'm living now you can get stuck behind many different types of animals but we we mostly have cows and goats um and lots of fences to go like a little electric fences where they're starting to put them back up because the cows are moving up Valley towards us again um but actually one of the fundamental differences that I see actually across the world is just temperature related warmer countries I think tend to run more runable races with less equipment and plus European stuff again tends to be in the mountains a little more rugged a little colder and when you get caught in the mountains you can really get caught in cold weather so that's where I think ingrained has become the mandatory gears so in the US most of the races you can do with handhelds and Phil up with water and boom boom boom it's it it makes for a faster paced thing and even a difference between US men's running and US Women's Running um the men's running tends to be just a little quicker at least like I mean Courtney's she's right there but for the most part generally speaking um the men are running a bit faster and I think you can kind of get away with a bit less gear going lighter and it's risky but at the same time you're you're trying to go for full speed but the courses aren't as hard they're not as technical for the most part that we we don't host as many races on the east coast in the US and the same thing like why can't you get more people to but people are almost looking at it's a track background looking at the watch you're looking at your speed you're like oh I'm not going fast enough and the more and more Trail you do the more mountain you do you need forget it it doesn't matter like are you dropping the guy behind you all right good keep going like you're going fast enough um and sometimes that's extremely slow if you look at your watch but you know your heart rate's over 180 you're you you're past threshold you shouldn't be there because you're in the middle of 100 mile race but you're making the move and you're dropping everybody like you're going fine enough is there a a big difference between runnable in the US and runnable in in Europe because when you come to trail run and to ultra Trail in in Europe everybody says oh yeah it's runnable this okay try to run this runnable course yeah I mean I so even like in the buerton um where I'm living um the trails are runnable if I go for just a 15K run yeah I can hammer it but now you want to had instead of just 1,000 M you tried to do 2 3,000 M well what was a run I mean essentially it's the same thing about utmp it's a wide open Highway if you look at the trail but at the same time like the amount of elevation gain we're all human it breaks you down and guess what it breaks you down and guess what you're an ultra Runner just like everyone else on the starting line you're all broken it doesn't matter how much you trained before this um it's really rewarding to kind of push through that and discover like the ra of you're moving forward you're surviving and you're kind of scrapping your way to the Finish Line um UTMB is definitely uh pulled that out of me every single time I've done it so whereas Western States it's the same distance it's incredibly hot it's extremely difficult however I've ran that race and finished it a couple times and I could have kept going for another 50k I felt just incredible and I was running at the end of it I have not ran like that at the end of UTMB so I mean for the most part it's really broken me down and why it's the end it's very if you finish a little bit um but overall I think it also goes to kind of stretching your your um plasticity and elasticity as a runner to your perspective of what is long and I've been working on more just the perception of what is long like um and you need to so in the US you look a lot at distance is Europe it gets hard enough where I think you have to think time wise and when you're thinking about time and it's even training philosophy most runners in Europe are basing off of meters climbed or time outside yeah most Runners US based are logging miles and they're looking at 100 mile weeks which in Europe 100 miles are like wow that's 160 170k and you go like it's 100 miles it's standard in American like University track running like that's what you have to to hit but then um uh yeah I have friends here that are like oh I'm over 100 kilometers this week and then you put it in miles you like you're at 60 miles this week like come on man you can run like you need more volume than that but it just goes to you getting fixated on these numbers and in reality it's kind of learning the process to slow down be out there for time and um kind of endure um a little longer yeah it's it's it's uh it often looks as if you're approaching a a go from the side of the impossible so maybe because you're uh coming from the US you're fixed on numbers or on on trying to to hammer it from the first meter uh and uh and it it from the from the outside it it looks like you're not aiming for the win you're aiming for the course record or to to destroy the course so uh I don't want to win the UTB I want the first to Win It low whatsoever or I want to to well here's one thing how I combat this so it goes to okay you're racing UTMB what's your strategy against Killian what's your strategy against Francois like that's my first dilemma every UTMB I've lined up has been against one of them I've never had a lucky year not against one of them so me like how you beat them at UTMB that that's maybe a tough a tough comp competition to have that's that's that's for sure I've been on the losing end of that one does it put the UTB uh to to a to something like like Wimbleton or or something like that that you say okay when I'm running there and I I'm in the in the top pack there that that are the the world best uh Runners every year the the if you look the top 10 uh on every year it's insane or you're just waiting for Killian and what they to not not to not attend so that they finally have your chance to win it I I mean I think if you keep showing up you eventually get lucky but um I think ultimately the way the sport has developed it's so different than it was 10 years ago there's so many other races to do and I think um win or lose this year I I really want to approach this race healthy um mindset wise I guess and how I'm looking at it how I'm approaching it hopefully I'm in a mindset that 24 hours isn't so long that it's doable I can conquer this um which five six years ago you look at I look at 24 hours running through the night I'm like oh man that sounds really like this is a problem but now I'm looking at it I'm like it's not so bad I'm becoming more of a fan of some of maybe the backyard Ultras or some of the two like 300 kilometer races or some of these things and I'm learning more and more about the sport and you go ah you know UTMB is not the long as it's not so bad out there and then I've had more experiences running through entire night and I'm even throwing some of that into my training and it changes perspective a lot more um so I I think learning process has been there like UTMB has kind of been the carrot at the end of it but it's it's been more about changing my my own perspective of the sport rather than just UTMB being the thing like I think that's not necessarily healthy to fixate on like success being measured whether I win it but at the same time yes it's obviously a driving factor I obviously want that but at this point I feel extremely like gratified of how much I've grown away from the track runner mentality and into just someone that can go survive in a really hard course on a really hard day or a couple days maybe um and that's where I've wanted to gravitate towards for myself as an athlete but then I guess now bring it a little full circle this is where I've kind of tried to build that direction as myself as an athlete and especially towards moving out here to France and working on it before I got out here but now the World Championships you look at it it's 86k it's got more vert per kilometer than UTMB does and I'm looking at the course going oh this looks like it's really within my wheelhouse and um I yeah I'm extremely excited about inbrook so so you're basically planning you're coming to win it so it's it's it's even if it's like a preparation race for utmp you you're not there to to have like a faster training run no I'm trying to so one one debate though it also goes okay how much do you want to challenge yourself on the course how much do I want to hammer and really like try to just get the most pure best performance of myself I can or do I go okay it's a world championship the goal is to be Podium the goal is to win run a bit more tactical wait wait wait and I feel like I've been racing a lot more World races like that um I mean I can say I sat back more at uh Ultra Trail Cape Town madira um and istria most recently I I heard from istria from from floran Castle he said on the the first kilometers you you you were in the heck with them and then the first time it goes up and he's gone well I actually broke my poll maybe 20 30 minutes into the race so I was like oh I broke my poll I might as well just run this like um uh uh oh man Arthur was up above me but I didn't realize Arthur started just hammering and he got a huge gap I'm like oh man I'm lucky that I started closing this cuz if I tried to close this Gap in the middle of the race they would have thought like he was forever ahead of me because uh it was very early and he wasn't very far ahead and it still surprised me how long it took to catch him but it started with just breaking my pole I was going to be patient patient but once I caught up to Arthur again it just went to sitting back and and not wanting to push and I felt like um I wanted to wait through 100 uh yeah 100 kilometers in the race we we kind of reached a big a station there and kind of Judge how I was feeling um and we got there and it was still dark and at first I was thinking I didn't want to run much of the course by myself in the dark it's always nice to have a bit of a partner through the night but um I could kind of sense he was having a little bit of a low patch and then just kind of uh I couldn't hold back and kind of pounced on the moment but but then you got to go okay you got 60k you got to go send it now and like all right here we go so um but it it went pretty well after that and I mean I was able to switch my PS out at the station so um the rest is history I guess and and it was a very smart move I think that that you you did istria that that uh early in the year because so you you are in UTMB and had not have to to to uh be nervous in June or whatsoever uh when everybody tries to to get these last uh things because they they they did this only the first three and the second chance and whatsoever it's it's really complicated now yeah I think everyone's a little frustrated with the new rule changes with UTMB and then even after istria they've even changed it more so and I think I'm not even sure I would have had to race but nonetheless I just wanted to I'm describing it as um they're they only allowed top three from UTMB last year to come back I was fourth place so I was the first one out that way I didn't have another qual ifier so they're like oh sorry you got to race in I like all right I'm going to race in I'm going to get an entry they make you pay 400 whatever Euros to get in and I'm not uh I don't owe you any favors when I show up to UTMB this year like you you didn't help me out at all to get there in the years past they give you a bib they they get you in and I think they had an amazing um entry for elite athletes to get into UTMB and that's kind of what's created the event for the atmosphere for all these Elites to show up is kind of the encouragement how easy it was to be an elite Runner to get into the race yeah but a lot of that changed this year and they really want you as an elite to do one of their other races no matter what and so yeah they want to promote their other races I think the entire Series so um so essentially there's frustrations with beginning that they they run and own a lot of amazing races throughout the the world so I mean it's not so bad but yeah it's becoming a bigger system that's a little frustrating to to be there's good and bad to it um obviously UTMB is still UTMB it's quite an amazing event and Amazing Race um I mean you get to to run a circle around the the tallest mountain in Europe it's pretty cool yeah but we we have a lot of of of of awesome mountains here even in inbrook yeah um uh one one question I have uh about the the weather is there anesis for you like you're a pro Runner okay so you you run all the year but is wind or heat or rain or snow or maybe creaky Noises Off the poles I don't know um so I found that I think I get colder at night than I really realize um and one thing I've started doing in the last year is if it's going to be a colder night run I just start wearing tights uh I know I'm good at the heat if I get hot I'm okay with that but if I get cold I I have found that I get into some trouble sometimes so um I mean a simple thing for me is I've started just racing in full tights a lot more um and keeping my legs covered a bit I found my when my kneecaps get cold um I I don't like running so much with I I lose some of the sensation in my legs to kind of feel the hill and how hard I'm actually impacting the ground when my knees get a bit cold so just keeping them a little warmer has really really made a big difference in the last year um yeah I want to the funny story but Tim toson said that um I think it was like two or three years ago I don't know the last time he went third at utmp he he went by um Dylan Bowman because early at the race Tim toson put on his gloves way earlier than and and he could eat because his hands were still warm and Bowman didn't and His Hands got cold and he couldn't eat anymore because his hands were so cold that it it couldn't move them and it is those little things that make or break your race that's that's that's funny and again it's all uh Tim Tolson lives at very high altitude in a colder place in uh the US and Dylan Bowman lives in a little more mild climate and could be a little bit um a difference of kind of where they're living and used to running in a bit colder weather that that that uh uh high altitude training is it's it's cool if you you you learned it or you you are used to it from from Flagstaff uh and European Runners are used to Mountain running and and and more technical Parts in in the mountains is is that something you think you can or or not not just you U somebody who hasn't learned it in the in the childhood can learn it uh like somebody who grew up in the mountains or is it something you say okay if you haven't learned it till 15 it's gone so it's interesting because I think um I'm not from the mountains I'm very much again from Phoenix Desert grew up first running on sidewalks um but one of the things that in my opinion is interesting when I look at more technical Sports whether it's cycling mountain biking um and especially what I'm learning through a bit as I've moved to Ares is um ski mountaineering and you kind of look at the way these guys ski how they go uphill how they go downhill there's absolutely no way I'll be I'll be able to make up the the skill difference on skis uh the way that they can ski especially downhill uphill doing okay this this last winter but I mean if you look at my technique compared to Remy Bonet I I look like I'm all over the place and then Remy just looks smooth smooth smooth and it's like ah if I moved like that I would be just as fast but I do not move like that on skis and I feel like I'm sliding and slipping instead of uh gliding up the hill don't put that over the top because we had Christine pund in here and she tried skiing and every time she tries skiing she she breaks her bones stay at trail running yeah yeah yeah so I mean I've been very no no so this winter I did um months of ski mountaineering um where we are we get too much snow you can't yeah run all year so it's very interesting to me the true Mountain athletes that stay in the mountains all year round they have to change Sports because it's not I mean unless you start running on a treadmill inside but yeah come on go outside everyone enjoys going outside a lot more so um essentially you start looking at the more technical stuff I think there's many of those sports that you you're very very far behind whereas with running it's interesting we all grow up running on something we all grow up using our feet we we have more of a feel in a sense with our feet as humans that isn't like skis it's not like a bicycle I so in my opinion there's and and I've seen it how like when I first got into trail running you hear oh man the Europeans they go downhill so fast and I remember one of my first races in Spain uh I got invited to do this small race uh and I was just thinking in my head like oh man Europeans like I better get a lead and I better bomb it down this hill as fast as I can go because they're gon to catch me and I realized like I put more time onto them in The Descent because I was running so scared and the more I've been in the sport of and and some people still have the the feel for running downhill I'm luckily I've been able to convert from track to to downhill and Trail technical trail running like fairly well I consider myself like it not really a weak point in my running but many people that do Transition don't transition as successfully which I haven't understood um completely because I don't really it it just kind of clicked when I started doing it but I I mean I don't have anything in my childhood that um would have said that I could do technical trail running apart from like I grew up playing soccer football uh sort of thing so there's some footwork with that but not really uh exactly doing that or definitely not in the mountains so for me I think just being human um comparing in the mountains with running it's it's not quite the same argument as a more technical sport but in the end it's also like about switching off your brain and just uh going down and and kind of feel it it it can also be kind of a natural thing thing that you're kind of born with or that you're that you're just good at because at least for me I I I can't turn off my brain when I when I run down so I'm a very bad when you look at the 12K Mountain race I think it's very much that case yeah I I mean I I think they have to go so fast downhill that you're looking at some of those people but even when you get to the 42k if you're really going down that fast unless it's a downhill descent finish I mean you can run so fast downhill that you you can probably run too fast downhill that it becomes such a problem later because the impact forces like cumulative or so bad later in the race that more more times than not it's not a full send in a race it's and and you're in the zone so it could be extremely fast you could smash a Strava segment you could do faster than anyone did but there's such a focus guess sometimes in races that it's not out of control it's okay but I would also say I'm not in the side of the sport that's in the 12K uphill downhill running for your life the entire time um UTMB is a little more chill in in the end it's it's controlled falling and if if you look at like I mean the extreme end would be Mount marathon in Alaska where the the 5K where run two and a half K up and then two and a2k down I mean that's crazy that's the way they run run that down I I once saw the the video like from kilan the way he runs down it it's Bonkers I I will say that um one thing I have picked up I guess maybe a couple years ago but um the degree slopes that skiers and downhill mountain bikers that they see and that they can read the terrain their vision is a little different and it becomes they don't feel out of control they don't look at the slope 40 degree slope and go whoa they look at the 40° slope of like ah I've ski steeper than that that's fine let's go down it and essentially their visions a bit different I think um and that's an advantage going very very fast downhill that that is the difference between Flor and me because I I grew up with skiing fast and so maybe that's that that's the advantage uh because he played tennis and I work own skis uh but uh we maybe I should run downwards with my hand or something then maybe a little bit faster and and we heard try and come back and and we we heard that uh that up and down uh stuff uh even from Mountain Runners from from Austria they said uh the normal Mountain running guys and girls uh it's more like a a dust Road up and down it's not technical at all and they don't want to do Trail because Trail is so technical even a yeah a a highway like like UTMB is is more technical than the usual Mountain running thing so so they say okay when I'm when I'm coming from the road or I I I come from Mountain running I want to to have this this uh normal street but it goes up or down and it's not techn yeah I have a couple loops especially um early season late season where I'm living that uh there'll be windy roads up and then windy roads down and um more or less they they don't get as Technical and especially if I'm trying to do some faster pce running um like this morning I was a bit time crunched and uh half the route was on uh Forest Road instead of true Trail but I need to to get some kilometers in and and maybe at at the end to bring it a little bit full circle um now if you if you would be at the world championships and were like I don't know 50ks in and and you were like in the lead would you then hammer down and go for the win and maybe maybe Red Line a little bit more than you wanted or would you stick with the guys and wait it out so I mean I guess as I read the course there's a what a 12200 foot or 1200 meter climb 1200 meter descent then 1500 meter climb then a bunch of high Alpine Ridge then a big descent into inbrook and then you got an additional 1,000 meters up 1,000 M to finish pretty much but so strategically speaking I mean everything in the first up down on the 1200 the little Loop you do it's irrelevant um you can kind of just destroy your race there uh and for the most part you don't want anyone to get away but you want to stay relaxed then I think the real like positioning will be on the the next long climb then I think I mean I'm I've been training up where we are uh 2,400 m is not reachable right now so part of me is half expecting a reroute um unless you guys are getting more rain than what we're warmer rain and more rain than what we're getting I mean there's more snow we arrived to France about this time last year and maybe last year it could have worked but I think this year at least where we are 2,400 meters is not going to be clear I don't know what it's like in inbrook um from what I hear a couple weeks ago there was definitely a lot of snow there there is lot of snow uh now uh uh I heard so last weekend there was snow up there and they just could could do the the I think half of the route yeah AER is is there and some from from Germany and Austrian and so and they they so you either run it as is or you reroute it and one if you run it as is snow super slow really tiring to go through the whole race will come back together yeah so then it will restart once you get down out of the snow that would be very very interesting but uh more than likely it would get rerouted below it I think but then you're also potentially taking out some of the technical yeah I have no idea that one's theoretical it seems extreme hopefully the snow melts enough to to run the trails but then you have a I would say a very strategic point where you could bomb down early I would say if you're less secure about waiting till the last climb I mean without a doubt the the move of the day would be to break it on the last thousand meter climb so you're in end broke already and you got your one little up down I mean I would say that's the most strategic because for the most part most people will have broken by then and if you still have something by then you can you can make the final dagger if you're Savvy enough you could be you could I mean I think Killians like this Killian would just wait till the last descent and you can just bomb the last descent into town but for the most part I always Flinch first and I would rather make it a long hard race from the beginning um for the entire thing so I would be looking at maybe um somewhere on the ridge it it depends with what Runners you're with sometimes I mean other American Runners might not be as strong technically so if you're trying to Gap them for uh the the win of the race a technical portion could be good if you're with a European that has more of a road background you probably don't want to wait till necessarily The Descent because if they turn it off and just let it go they'll be fast so um sometimes it depends on who exactly you're with yeah um do you uh go to inbrook before just to check the the the course out or yeah it's um so initially a couple months ago I I had it on my calendar as I I would go it's about 9h hour drive or yeah uh about 9h hour train I think too but to get from we are to adjust the train to begin the train um is kind of a pain um so it turned into looking the more I kind of studied the course of it the more I kind of realized like this looks like the B foron kind of profile it looks M very much like the gradients on the course I can easily get 30 40% the steepest stuff we'll see on the course I can easily get that out my back door where I'm already living MH plus I know people especially the French team seem to be studying the course a lot and they've already been there and yeah I don't know very serious the Swiss team the French team it's it's it's near from for for the Italians too and the German team so it's it's it's right in the middle yeah it's it's part of why I think it's a very nice World Championship um but many of them have ran into the same problem that when you try to scout some of the higher parts of the course uh it's too early I mean it's really going to open up one two weeks before the race if it does open up so patient patient um I'm curious uh have you guys had a pretty rainy weather yeah the last uh I think two or three weeks is it's really rainy and uh I don't know where the where the uh how low the snow comes I don't know but I think more I look at in more I'm like it's exactly where I'm already living so it just became it didn't make as much sense um coming back from istria uh the recovery running 100 m that's the earliest I've ran 100 miles in the season so um and it's an eight-week turnaround between those two races which is again an interesting um turnaround so we'll see how that goes but uh it's been good so far and um we've had rainy weather here but I also think there's something in my gut coming from Phoenix that June is the beginning of Summer and uh it could be a very hot race as well um I don't know I just trust thing I I don't trust the weather and I always think it's it's it's funny because last year um uh uh not yeah last yeah last year uh inbrook uh had to recourse because uh on the patcha C near inbrook there was too much snow and uh a few weeks later in June uh in in salsburg I think what's two two two hours away uh we had 32° uh C it's it's it was crazy yeah so yeah I think June's an interesting time um it's hard to predict what the weather's actually going to be like but if it is warm especially for me being European based and all the Europeans it will be the first warm weekend warm race that any of us do and I think we'll all get um kind of roughed up by it yeah I think especially this year it's it's it's it's cold very long I mean I can remember at the same time last year um it was it was way hotter than than this year so that's that that's that's definitely affect yeah and and and June is a good uh a good month that there are no of thunderstorms and and and so because at July August uh that the weather on on the mountains is it's not uh good predictable and June is a is a a good month for that stuff it's it's Runner friendly yeah we'll see yeah um so uh Flo do you have any anything no I have nothing on my digital note blog anymore thank you that we have taken so much of your time um yeah sorry about kind of the Fiasco of everything today it's no nobody will notice once I do my magic so so awesome yeah great and thanks for doing one of your few podcasts in English uh um thanks for making the exception for me we were kind of very nervous yeah we were kind of very nervous because I mean we you you can hear that we are German not speaking English fluently so it's a austan English aan English your your English is amazing and extremely easy to speak with and understand um when we go to German area first time it will be my first time to Austria but um when we've been to Germany it's it's always been incredible how welcoming and because I speak no German so um you're used to you're Ed to to to FR to the French people so nothing can shock you anymore they're not as open about uh speaking English to us and then where we live um when people find out where we live they go oh like where's the nearest English-speaking person to you like it could be 50k I mean we're quite tucked away but um I'm excited and uh when we come out to inbrook I'll be staying a little outside of the city to uh maybe keep it a little more similar to buer T and hopefully there's some good cows out there to oh yeah listen to so you feel like like home exactly I'll see better I always even El Bandy said it's wrong to be French so I mean just just putting it out there I'm still American so but um yeah I'm I'm right now I'm debating uh potentially coming out a couple days earlier just to see more the course um and I might be racing uh earlier than the trail championships while I'm out there okay yeah uh we hope we we see you in insbrook uh we will be there the the whole week uh and will be awesome uh uh championship and I hope that's the the last statement I hope when I'm the CCC and you are competing in the UAM be please don't don't don't overtake me that's that's his only goal yeah there's no guarantee I say much when at that point in the race uh but I hope at least if we have an interaction that uh I'm coherent enough to recognize you and I can say keep going or or maybe you'll have a you'll you'll finish just before me and you'll have a cold beer for me by the time I finish oh okay that's a deal you you head him with cold beer yeah I wait with the cold beer from the uh mlan Brasserie it's a very good bring a German beer the the German and the Belgian beer is a lot better than okay it's on and we have a deal thank you okay thanks a lot and guys have a good one bye we'll see you [Music]