Tracy Lawrence - TL's Road House - Caroline Jones (Episode 27)

[Music] there's something [Music] [Music] [Music] hello everybody Welcome to Tio's Roadhouse glad to have you with us for this episode in the house is Caroline Jones how are you I'm wonderful I have so many questions so I just really want to get to know you yeah it's uh kind of fascinating you're the first lady in the Zac Brown Band these days so that's a that's a huge thing how is it living on a bus with a bunch of stinky guys well I'm I'm really lucky I'm spoiled I have my I'm on a separate bus really I'm not by myself um I'm with some other people but I'm not on their bus you know I think when I first joined that was one of the things that Zach and I discussed because and also Zach's on a separate bus you know they're not all on the same bus at this point um but they have a pretty set in stone Dynamic you know I think it would be kind of uncomfortable for me and for them I don't know if I could make them feel oh absolutely you know they've been on the same bus they were in Vans before they were in a bus together you know 15 years ago so I'm I was very aware that I was stepping into a you know multi-decade long locker room basically and um just trying to be really respectful of that not only because I respect them so much as musicians but also just because I respect them so much as people they're all family men they all have families and kids and wives and you know they're um they're ahead of me in terms of the chapters of Life at least one chapter um and so I was I was Uber respectful I still am you know well and as you get older it makes it easier as you travel so much out on the road in the dominant Diamond the Dynamics are much different than when we were young and yes crazy yeah I know and I'm actually really grateful for that because I've never been like a real crazy out there party person I've always been really career focused very ambitious very work driven I don't know I definitely could not have been in the Zac Brown Band 10 years ago you can ask any of them I don't know what I would have done so give me your background where were you originally from I'm originally from the Northeast I'm from Connecticut um grew up actually really near New York City I ended up going to high school and college in New York City I went to performing arts high school and always loved music was very driven from a young age and moved down here it's hard to say because I've been coming to Nashville since I was 17. so more than a decade um but really moved down full time I want to say like six or seven years ago because I I lived in Zach's apartment for a while down here before I bought my house and so I've been coming here forever it seems like so was country a part of your earlier repertoire when you were did you get passionate when did you discover country not at all I grew up listening to a lot of classic rock um a lot of classic r b that's what my Dad loved do you know Motown and classic rock and also some 60s singer-songwriter like Bob Dylan Joni Mitchell Gordon Lightfoot all that kind of stuff he loved and my mom listened to I grew up in the 90s so my mom listened to a lot of Mariah Carey Whitney Houston gotcha Celine Dion Barbra Streisand the big big vocalists so I grew up listening to a lot of that and then I was actually trained in Opera um so I listened to Opera and Jazz for my singing training when I was a little girl so I grew up listening to almost everything but country and uh the extent of country that I knew was like Shania Twain literally like her crossover stuff and when I was 17 I had one of my first managers say you know you should really go down to Nashville and check out the country music scene and I was like what and he was like your music has some country undertones and some like singer-songwriter that kind of country undertone and he's like in countries the only commercial genre left that has any moral compass and any kind of authenticity and you know in a way he was right you know and any Community um like a centeredness around community and authenticity and musicianship and storytelling he was like those are still the pillars of country he's like all the other commercial genres kind of have don't have that um and I think he was very protective of me because I was a young girl with this big dream you know and so I went down to Nashville he set me up with some writers down here they took me to the Bluebird Cafe and I was done for I mean I was just I fell in love I feel like it was the missing piece of my Artistry uh I hadn't realized that there was a whole genre of music and whole community of people like a town that was centered around those values that he was talking about and I really gravitated towards them as a teenager through the singer-songwriters like Joni Mitchell and Bob Dylan but I hadn't realized that there was a whole town built around authenticity and musicianship and storytelling and countries broadened so much over the years I mean it's it's it's been influenced by so much stuff I mean even in the early days it was it had r b influences and Bluegrass influences and gospels all of that stuff and as we progressed and it's had its time with the pop influences and the hip-hop and the rap influences I mean it's it's very broad as far as just the styles that you can that are except especially nowadays in country music when you first got to town uh for me the first time I came here after bouncing around and playing bands and things I'd always felt a little like an outsider the first time I rolled into town and I discovered all songwriters and the places where people hang out it was the first time I felt like I was truly home and that I found all these other people like me uh did you feel that feeling when you started selling in the Nashville did you did you have that sense of awareness that it was something different for you absolutely and you feel so it's so inspiring oh without a doubt because you see you know every Big Fish in small pond in America and all over the world has moved to Nashville to chase this dream with this common love and passion and drive and it's so freaking inspiring because you go to any bar any club any Listening Room and you just hear so much talent and especially for me as a musician I I wanted to set myself apart at a young age and uh be a proficient musician you know I um to continue the story my early days in Nashville I got set up with mac mcanally and he helped me produce some of my first Independent Records and so he brought me into the studio with Glenn Wharf and Tom bukovac and uh I'm trying to think at that time who was drunk drumming Greg Morrow and Steve Nathan and um obviously Mac mcanally on guitar and I remember learning the way that the Nashville sessions worked and the I don't I don't even know how to describe the proficiency for your listeners of these session players like the the the caliber of musicianship that I saw when I was 20 years old unbelievable it's on it's it's unmatched anywhere else on Earth you know that we know of and um and I was so I remember thinking to myself at that young age I was like these are the people it would be awesome to have a radio hit or a career or whatever but like these are the people who I would want to respect me and to think that I was a real artist a real songwriter a real musician and I just worshiped them at such a such a young age the songwriters too but I think there was something about the musicians there's so much like humility in what they do um and just so much talent and creativity and the way that they can create on the Fly and pull up sounds and change directions and it's amazing you know you think about uh you know playing cover bands and going out and playing other people's music and stuff and copying record licks uh you have to have a definitely a certain skill set to be able to do that at a high level and be able to do parts and arrangements and all that stuff but to be able to sit in the studio and you know I was watching a thing on book of act the other day and it blew me away and he was talking about how difficult it was as a young player to get into sessions he said because you know you'll you'll play a pass down and everything's good you go back and you start working on your guitar solo and you might think you played the best thing that you've ever played you dug down deep and you just lit that solo up and the producer's like not really the direction I was looking for you can you try this and you've got to be able to turn that switch off not get your personal feelings attached to it come back and give them what they want because it's not about you as a player and the thing about maybe 10 options absolutely it doesn't have to be a plus and then come back and play Harmony Parts with them exactly the same and do it in a quick time frame and have the the disposition and then the humbleness because there's a Vibe that's created in a session when players are together and and I that's how I like to track I want to have everybody in the room I don't want to pee smell things out I think a record loses something when you do that I think you're right I've done it both ways my first record I as a musician I wanted to learn how to play on my records because playing on records as a whole as you know a whole other skill level yes I can't do it it's above my head I'm getting there slowly but surely but um so on my first record I really wanted to the only way you can learn to do that is by hopefully I did I had a producer and an engineer who were patient and believed in me and the only way you can do that is by suffering through it and trying until you're good enough you know you have to learn there's no other way and you need time and you need someone's patience or your own you know um and so my first record I played all the instruments on my record except bass and drums and it took us a long time to make and I learned a ton and I became such a better musician but my second record I wanted to get other musicians in because I missed some of that tracking energy you know and I'm not necessarily good enough to be able to track down with those players you know especially when I'm trying to sing and co-produce at the same time it's your energy is a lot yeah it's too much I mean you just can't focus on it you can't give everything the focus that it warrants um and so but I still love playing on my records but there is that magic that's happening in the room when people are creating parts that you want to be part of so I've done it a few different ways now but I will say that when you get players of that caliber in the same room there is an energy and a magic that's created that's hard to reproduce through overdubbing yes overdubbing can have its own advantages creatively for you like selfishly because you have more parts to create and that can be really fun and rewarding but it is I mean there's nothing like being in a big session with those guys the arrangement process to uh if if everything is it for example if you lay down an acoustic vocal with a click track and you just piece that out to everybody there's no room to make any alterations right you know if you want to add a a extra beat or or whatever or something doesn't fit or create a dynamic you've kind of lost the opportunity to do that in a lot of regards when you have that creative brain working and everybody that you mentioned from Steve Nathan to Glenn Wharf all the way down I've had the privilege of being in the room with those people and and I know the magic that they create but the humbleness with the way they do it and they can they can share ideas I mean when when you if you have a really good session of players and a really good producer that knows how to keep that energy level up and that's amazing you can feel the magic when it happens there's nothing locked and then as a singer you're just on fire it makes the hair extendable marketing about because I've been in those rooms when it's happened and you know sometimes you've cut I've cut records that you don't really know but when you know you know yeah it's pretty awesome it really is and and to your point about arranging I mean that to me is the most fun is is if you can bring creativity and freedom to those session guys because a lot of times their hands are a little bit tied with commercial music and Commercial Arrangement so if you can get a little experimental with them I mean they just eat it up you know you know so I love kind of bringing to them and challenging them and what could we do here and maybe we modulate here or maybe we do add an extra bar here and do a crazy drum fill or something and it's so exciting to them because many times and not to take anything away from Modern commercial music but many times they're playing below their skill level really like they are capable of who knows what musically well you know a lot of people don't realize uh you know my mama used to say when it comes to save bands like Alabama and they yes uh and she would say oh that family Harmony there's just nothing like it and I want to tell her now Mama that wasn't them singing Harmony on that record and that wasn't Jeff cooking playing lead guitar on that record right right and and a lot of times producers will come in and they'll put a ceiling on what you can do uh because that person that the public perceives as being the person that played on that record they got to be able to play everything that's on that record right and sometimes their skill set is a little bit below where that's actually at so that happens a lot as a musician can you tell the difference when you when you listen to people's records gosh I don't know it would depend on the band and how big of a fan I was if I could tell if it was the session players or if it was the band I'm pretty sure that's what you're asking yes it is yes um I'm not sure I know that for example when you listen to a Zac Brown Band record the reason that they have a sound is because there's hardly any overdubs and they're usually tracking live and they've known each other's for so long that their personal and musical Dynamic comes off you know comes to life on record on tape but think about this so like a lot of rock and roll records what's the guitar player from Toto uh oh it's on the shipment Google okay curly-headed guy anyway so a lot of rock and roll guys will come in he's gonna look it up and it's right on the god it's gonna wear me out because he he actually played on a lot of Michael Jackson stuff yeah amazing but but so you would have bands rock and roll bands that would come in and that would hire guys like him yeah to come in and show the lead guitar player what to play they might not actually play on the record but they're helping him map it out so they're trying to push his skill level up so it's still the band playing but those are different perspectives about how different genres of music work which I find very fascinating me too and that could be very helpful like Tom bookaback played on this last record of mine and he played some things first of all he comes up with things that I would never in a million years come up with let alone that he's so far beyond my capabilities but it's really fun because then what he plays on my record I have to learn how to play that live because I'm my only guitar player um and I share a lead guitar with my guitar player Riley Bria but it's so it's such a wonderful challenge because now I'm learning Tom bukovack's licks and tombucavak's parts and it's helping you grow yeah absolutely and I've heard stories that Glenn Campbell in the early days actually did a lot of that stuff too that people would actually play on the record and Glenn would come in and cop the licks so he actually played the part again I don't know that to be 100 true but I've heard a lot of stories about like that what I'm saying God what he was an incredible was he not oh without a doubt such an amazing feel yeah I could talk about this stuff all day oh me too because I'm fascinated by all of it and the session players are really the unsung heroes to me of this of this music and they're just their talent is I don't think people realize so what's um five six instruments yes what what are they yeah so I play guitar banjo piano dobro and harmonica um and I'm not a prodigy on any of them um I'm so grateful that people associate me as a musician and with instruments because I worked really hard to um kind of have that skill set under my belt and to be seen as a musician taken seriously as a musician um but I honestly just love it I've been fascinated with production since I was a teenager I would used to listen to records and the chorus hits and I just think what it's like eating food and you're like what is in this like how do they you know it's one thing to enjoy the taste but it's another thing to think like step by step an ingredient by ingredient like what is I wanted to understand how records sound like that and hit like that um and I think that's part of why I was so interested in the session players and why they choose the sounds and parts the way that they do and their understanding of a mix and the landscape of a mix um but that's really why I picked up different instruments just because I wanted to learn how to bring the ideas that I had to life you know it'd be easy for me to sing a part to a musician but I wanted to be able to play it as well you know I want to be able to bring it to life so um that's with instrumentation when you got in the studio uh did the early engineers and early people you're working with help you kind of find some of those different sounds uh let's say when I'm at uh Derek he was working at sound Emporium and he worked on a couple of my records as an engineer and and uh so being able to find certain sounds that fit certain songs even different acoustic tones whether you're going to stack Acoustics or play acoustic solos the tones are always different uh how do you approach finding those sounds and and and how do you use them if it's something more traditional or something more Jazzy do you change Direction with what you're doing absolutely I mean that's the fun of it right it's like a playground it's never ending and you can really go down so many rabbit holes with production and I've been down many um some successful some unsuccessful but I've just been lucky to be surrounded by uh folks producers engineers and musicians a lot more experience than I am and who also at the same time as being way more experienced and proficient than I was than I am um also believed in me and also gave me a chance to you know didn't just say oh no this is what we're doing you know who cares you don't have to understand it they really let me in on the process and I I think because they saw that I was really curious and passionate like genuinely um and so you know and Zach told me that too Zach uses a different producer for every album because he says I want to learn everyone's tricks like I want to learn how everyone does things differently he's like there's something to learn from every producer the way that they track everyone is so different and everyone's taste is so different um but I first started working with Mac mcanally who taught me a ton and opened up my eyes to this world of session playing and musicianship and camaraderie in the National community that I hadn't known existed then I I produced my first record with Rick wake who's more of a pop producer and he's produced Mariah Carey and Whitney Houston and Jennifer Lopez and he's produced Trisha Yearwood he's done some country but a lot of Pop um and was one of the main guys at Sony in the 90s and 2000s for pop um and his team Gustavo Salis the engineer who did my um first two records I mean they taught me I really credit that their patience and their belief in me with like sitting with me for hours with a click while I tried to get a part while I tried to understand what tone this guitar should have should we turn on this pedal should we try this you know it's just trial and error and you need someone to bounce an idea off of someone to help teach you and guide you and I just feel so grateful for their mentorship and their patience because it's you know you're learning and you're trying your best but it just takes experience it does and there's you know I've seen it I don't know if we've kind of missed out on some some of the special eras because now everything's in the Box yeah it's all there I mean every sample you can imagine but I've heard stories of people going outside during breaks of sessions with their drumsticks and tapping on hubcaps yeah all around the parking lot looking for a circle we did a lot of fun stuff like that with my first record see that I think that's cool when you're searching for something that's just available to you that's not already created in a box somewhere well and also um no you're absolutely right and also even you know the fact that you can time align and tune anything now is like a real crutch and it's one thing if you just want to put something down and make a catchy record but it's another thing if you're gonna have to play that live like I always wanted to be a great live player all the play all the artist players that I look up to like Vince Gill and Keith Urban and Willie Nelson like their their guitar Voice live is as characteristic as their voice voice you know and so um with that in mind like I didn't I didn't want to time align everything and just tune everything and say okay it's good enough you know I really wanted to learn how to play it properly because I wanted to be able to deliver it live um and so to your point that takes a lot more time and creativity um and yeah and more frustrating too and I think I think that we just because we have the tools to make perfect records don't win we should yeah because um I've I'm a YouTube junkie I'm I'm going down rabbit holes all the time and there's a there's some guy and I can't remember what it was but he'll take a classic rock record you know like a Zeppelin and go in and hard tune it sounds like crap yeah you take you take that vocal and tune that thing to a bit and shove it up in the mix you've lost all the magic of the era I gotta listen and he goes does that with several other uh classic rock things and it's fascinating because they actually mix through the flaws before and it seems like everything is wider and it breathed more right and we're talking about some of the greatest vocalists absolutely they're still human but they weren't perfect right they're humans but you know there was uh in the early days I remember before automation first came up there was a little junkie demo Studio I spent a lot of time in and when we would mix out our demos we'd have automation there'd be four of us on a console with everybody holding their parts yeah and for people that are outside the business that's it's almost like you're playing the last instrument to finish the record yes and nowadays my mixing is such a craft and nowadays everything is automated so once you get it set it'll go back to that same spot but before when you're mixing it down if anybody missed their party yeah just start over yeah and there's something really cool about going back and listening to that and knowing what they were doing and thinking about the Beatles doing all that early stuff on a four track and pinging things down well and thinking about some of those singers and you realize that there was no tuning like you listen to a queen record and you're like that is his voice you know and that might be one or two passes I mean they could still edit but nothing like we can do now so it just blows you away the the talent that some of these folks and I think if you listen and I was talking about this with another guest recently the way a lot of vocals sound and I notice it in the guys especially and not I think we're getting some personality back now but we went through a few years there where I had a hard time telling who was who because everything is tuned so and it's hard as a vocalist to hit some of those notes if that's not the natural way you sing when you get done with your vocal and you leave personality on and all of a sudden it's tuned to this place that's not the way you sing you can't reproduce that vocal live I know I know I'm real when I was younger younger I tuning was pretty standard I mean it still is very standard but it took it but it took me a while to um to to notice the sound of it and not like it like I actively don't use tuners now because I feel like and I know this is controversial because everyone uses tuners and a lot of people use tuning live now but I don't know I can't I can't get my head around it well if you like Dylan you know I mean he he wasn't tuned no he wasn't tuned I mean even you listen to Aretha Franklin records like the in between those no the blues notes are what make her voice have character but not only that it I think it's more basic and again I don't want to like judge anyone I know everyone uses it to a certain extent but I just feel like if you're a professional singer you should be able to sing in tune like if you can't why are you a professional singer amen like and I that might not be again I'm not knocking anyone for me I take a lot of pride in being able to sing on Pitch like I worked really hard for a lot of years and trained my voice to sing on pitch and with my instruments like I've worked hard a lot of years to be able to play in time play in tune and am I perfect no like not by any stretch of the imagination like I have so far to go but I like knowing where I am and then I can take pride when I nail it and when I don't I can be like I have so far to go but at least you I don't know there's a certain Pride that I I feel like um I feel like needs to be more pervasive now because when you make mistakes I've matched yourself do you get really mad do you really how do you hang on to it for a while I used to be worse I used to be really bad like it would ruin me for a few days really yeah especially if it was something important in a show because the thing is and and probably your listeners can relate to this in some area of their life but my guitar player always says he's like when you step on stage you're half the player that you are when you're off stage and I think that is so you know people forget because I used to think if I practice enough and I nail it enough by myself when I go out on stage I should be able to nail it but going out on stage the adrenaline and the experience of that you know that's a whole other training ground and you have to learn how to relax and operate under pressure and not push the basket and so um I think I get less angry at myself now because I realize that it's it's literally part of the experience whether you make a mistake by yourself or in front of other people oh if you make it by yourself you're getting laughed at [Laughter] uh it's just you starting it off but if you ever started off a half step off like with you Capo he turned around me I wouldn't use Joe's like wrong key don't know you're right around the Zac Brown Band has given me more of that attitude I I you know it's allowed me to be more raw and less timid I think for so long I was so scared of making a mistake I was such a perfectionist and now and they are just so raw balls to the wall you know they grew up in clubs so they you know um there's a certain energy and also a certain fearlessness and confidence that you earn after years and years and years of Performing um and I'm just still catching up to that um but I'm better now I'm definitely better now because I see it as I really truly see it as growth I used to see it as a failure and now I see it as this is part of getting better like taking a risk even if you fail is part of you can't get better without doing that absolutely and being in a band that doesn't demonize you if you make a mistake that just kind of laughs it off and goes on and because everybody does it yes it's just the way it is it's part it's part of the live experience and I love going to shows I want to see that that's part of the whole live experience everyone does important yeah it makes you human to the crowd you know and those magical nights when when great stuff happens I mean that's just you want to be there with that stuff too I saw Godsmack last night and Sudley started the song off a half step off and he's like wait a minute they just informed me I'm in the wrong damn tuning so then the whole crowd laughed it off and it was great I love moments like that because it shows you that they really are human you know nobody's perfect I love that did you uh were you familiar with the number system before you came to town no what a shock was that um I wouldn't say it was a shock it actually makes a lot of sense to me yeah yeah you know like it's a very logical way especially for the purposes that it's being used in this town um where you don't have to write things out note by note like classical notation wouldn't make any sense for what no sessions are going on you know so actually I think the number system is pretty brilliant I can't remember I remember hearing David Dorn talk about who invented it but I can't remember now who did I wasn't Gathering um and you know what it what it does is it out allows you to have structure that everybody can read but still give you the freedom to express yourself as a musician and to change Keys yeah because you should get because you can still be creative inside that box yeah I think it makes a lot of sense and I'm not fast reading it but I can I can read it I mean I understand it um I'm not as fast as some guys depending on how complex the song is if it's normal the average level of complexity is pretty easy to so does the band play on all Zach's records yeah have you played on a record yet I have tell me what that was like oh my God it was so exciting kind of nerve-wracking because like I said they track live so they're you know you don't really go in for overdubs um they're all tracking live and coming up with parts and um I mean you're stepping into I always say you know it's so surreal being in the Zac Brown Band it's not like they're holding auditions you know it's like joining Metallica or the Grateful Dead like it's an institution in a way and um if you had told me 10 years ago that I would be a part of this I I would never ever have even it's not a dream that I thought to have dreamed so then in moments like that like playing the CMA Awards with them or going into the studio with them or those moments where you just can't believe that you're apart and you get to contribute um you know I want to bring my a game as much as I can and just contribute anything that I can um support it's really fun too because it's a totally different discipline than being an artist you know like being a side man is it's like a different side of your brain um because it's all it's more like being a session player it's more it's an act of service like yes exactly like I'm in I'm in service I think of myself as in service of Zack's music and Zach's songs and the band is a whole like I just wanna if I can add a part um whatever it entails that makes makes it feel that much better or my presence on stage or my voice you know my Harmony or whatever it is a high Harmony I always say the only thing I have on any of them is an octave there's a t-shirt in there yeah yeah right um so anything I can add and contribute like I'm just constantly rocking in the beginning I was really just holding on for dear life because I kind of got thrown in the deep end and now that I'm a couple years in I'm really trying to think and be more intentional about like what can I add like what can I contribute what what do they need Zach is such a characteristic acoustic player that actually most of what I do is play rhythm guitar um and just add that um it's basically like a Shaker you know what I mean it acts as a percussion instrument but it can be really helpful because normally they have one person on electric one person on Keys koi and Clay switch off and so they're kind of there is room for That acoustic guitar um because Zach's playing lead on nylon or on acoustic and he's an incredible he's a very underrated guitar player people don't realize they're all gut string isn't he I mean is that her yeah but his finger picking and his oh my God when he plays guitar in a room it is so hey how loud is it it's so loud like his his finger his hands are like first of all like that big and um I don't know his articulation and The Melodies that he comes up with he's really influenced by James Taylor so it's like those guitar Melodies while he's picking and while he's strumming and it's um I've never seen anyone play guitar like him he's very very characteristic yeah everybody in the band is awesome yeah they are everybody's so and it's cool because everybody has such a unique gift and talent to offer that's why I like really want to find mine you know and and contribute it because um everyone even the like I said coin clay who switch off on lead guitar and keys they have such different sounds on electric guitar and even on Keys the way they play organ they're fantastic organ players um and it's it's cool to see how they all create something greater than the sum of some of its parts I mean that's what a band should be absolutely yeah yeah and it's fascinating what do you have a producer that comes out and helps arrange things or is Zach pretty much handle everything on the road as far as sounds and and structure and all that stuff these step outside of record arrangements or anything he does but that's something we all do internally as a band um Matt Mangano the bass player and kind of acts as an MD um in terms of organization and charts and Arrangements but everyone contributes if we're going to change up Zach actually loves changing up arrangements because he gets really bored with playing the same songs the same way over and over year after year so he's always trying to find a way to throw in a cover throw in a middle eight where we can do something crazy you know rock our faces off or do so you know he he comes up with these really fun crazy musical ideas and he's musically fearless and very diverse like he's not afraid to go super hard rock or super blue grass you know or anything that's gonna make the show exciting and compelling and he knows that his fans appreciate kind of the gamut of styles of music yeah so it actually makes for a really diverse really interesting fun show and every year he I mean he loves playing covers I don't know if you've you've ever seen him play covers but like he loves arranging covers so I mean almost a third of our show is covers I love covers covers sycam on a chicken is a great example you would never expect to hear that bizarre twist in the middle of it and then they just tie it all back together they do it brings it all back around it's like what the hell was that yeah how excited he gets oh it is it's really fun it's so much fun and it's so much fun to it's such a challenge to learn some like when I first joined the band and I had to learn uh 50 or 60 Zac Brown Band songs because they changed their set list every night too so I had a database of songs that we would definitely play and that was like maybe 20 or 25 songs and then the rest of them you know they just pull out basically and I was just like praying for the night that you know the song that I knew would be chosen as opposed to a song that I didn't know you ever get caught off guard one that you knew that y'all had run but you hadn't run it in two months oh yeah for sure I mean they don't really yeah yeah still happens to me because sometimes they'll call audibles on stage in their old songs that I've never really played with them one time they called Jolene and I thought they were talking about Dolly Parton Jolene but it was a cover of Ray LaMontagne song and I just I just muted my guitar and just went like this because I was like I've never heard this song in my life you know yeah yeah and we were in front of like 25 000 people and I'm just going so what do you listen to for enjoyment now what what's John or do you do you dive into what are you listen to at the gym what do you listen to for entertainment I was do a bunch of different stuff I actually really enjoy modern uh pop music yeah um because I love production and a lot of the modern pop music fascinates my brain like my production brain I love kygo who's a dance producer I think he's so I think he's like a modern almost like Mozart type like I think he's an amazing composer and a ranger and I love the sounds he chooses are so interesting to me um I love this band called The War on Drugs which I think you would like actually too you should check them out um are they like Disturbed or anything like that because I love Disturbed I don't know they're kind of like um Zac Brown Band loves that all those guys love hard rock I never got that into Hard Rock I'm a huge Lady Gaga fan yeah I mean I think she's a brilliant artist but I mean we were talking about all the metal stuff Five Finger Death punchers but most of that stuff that I like from that genre I typically work out too because I like to get go into beast mode yeah but different types of music if they do for you what they do for me it's like if I'm driving and and you different things affect the way I drive music affects my brain I mean it either calms me or puts an edge on me or makes me want to go fast that's why it's slow yeah I actually have to be careful not careful but I'm cautious or conscious of where I listen to music because I can't it's hard for me to focus on anything else like it's even hard for me to listen to music when I work out because I end up just I don't know I get kind of I get so into the music it's hard for my brain to turn off um but to go back to the War on Drugs I think you would like them they're kind of like modern day Springsteen or YouTube cool um there's this great singer-songwriter named Lizzie McAlpine who I love um I loved um um Nicole her record last year huh yeah Nicole gallion's record last year she's a songwriter here in town that was my favorite record of the year that was so good um it kind of runs the gamut I got you yeah so we usually don't get nervous most of the time we just did a show with Willie and that it kind of made me a little where was it it was out of Kansas City Kansas and uh so I looked over side of the stage and Gary Allan's looking at me grinning holding the beer or whatever and then I like knowing that Willie Nelson's coming out everything I was like man it was a little nervous wrecking there for a second but got it under control do you ever get nervous and if so when was the last time you got nervous definitely I I get nervous a lot less than I used to in the beginning of my career I remember the first time I went out on the Zach because I started out opening for them so the first and that was the first big Amphitheater Arena tour that I'd ever done where I was consistently in front of you know 10 000 people every night or more and I remember that summer I've every night I felt like someone stuck my body in a light socket for the 20 minutes that I was on stage and I was just like like the whole time I mean I I remember the day the first day of that tour the first show that I walked off stage and I had felt relaxed and I just burst into tears because I was like oh my God it's happening like I'm finally getting used to this um I was just yeah I was gonna ask you like the pre-show stuff do you do do you like to be by yourself do you want to talk to somebody you know do you have a pre-show kind of five minute or ten minute thing yeah yeah I have a lot of I have a lot of many many rituals and practices I definitely am a loner I like to be alone I don't like people to talk to me before the show um maybe one day I will but I feel like even as I relax even if I if I'm super relaxed I still I don't want to get too relaxed you know I want to be aware of what I'm about to do and that people paid money to come to this show and I want to be on my a game so um yeah I can talk to people after the show but to answer your question the last time I was nervous was last week we did live TV for the EP release and I always get nervous on live TV yeah oh yeah don't you I do TV still makes me a little bit nervous yeah I was going to ask you something a while ago too it's when I was growing up I I couldn't study if music was on anywhere I had to have complete silence because I couldn't focus on anything else yes does music distract you that way you you made a comment while yeah it does something like that it I I couldn't do anything with music on it come I couldn't sleep yeah I mean it was all it just affected my brain yes I definitely have that like I don't know how people just have music on in the background all the time I can't do that like even with my husband in the car we'll be in the car and if music's playing like I I if we're having a conversation I want to turn it down because don't ask me sure don't ask me about another song If something else is because I can't I because I'm listening to the bass line in the arrangement yeah subconsciously at the very least I know it's funny it's funny how your brain does that it's not something I do consciously but I do find it hard to focus on music and something else at the same time oh it's impossible yeah were you a good student I was I was a good student mostly just because I was I've always been a diligent person um but I didn't really enjoy School I'm not a big school person I don't blame you I didn't enjoy it um I I didn't enjoy school I always felt like I knew what I wanted to do and it was a waste of my time you know what do you mean I I just always knew what I wanted to do and I always wanted to be in music and I always felt like I had my life path ahead of me and I was like I'm wasting my time here you know which is it's such an arrogant thing to say as a young person but it's also kind of true in a way because if you were lucky enough to know what you want to do like I was lucky that I had a family that nurtured that um but I think you know I think you gotta know I mean you would know you're a parent um you got to know your kids because some like my sisters loved school and they loved the community and they loved Sports and extracurriculars and they were um you know really popular and all I I just I've all I'd always had a one-track mind in terms of what I wanted to do with my life when you first moved down here um who was the first celebrity that you met birdie that I thought I met was Mac mcanally he's maybe not considered a celebrity to other people the first celebrity that I met was Billy Currington um I was driving uh down the I don't know if you can put this in but I was I was walking on the road and Billy Currington drove by me and hit on me laughs I was only like I don't know how old I was maybe 19 20. I don't really yeah Billy Billy Billy Billy Billy Billy Billy I think he was hitting on me if he wasn't then this is embarrassing but that's really funny it's been amazing to watch Nashville grow so you've been here how many years um I I don't really know let's say seven yeah let's say six or seven probably full time and it's changed a little bit since you've been here yes I'm telling you it I wish you could have seen it in the 90s music girl had such a great charm and for somebody that is as a passionate about the recording process and the musicianship there was a certain charm that it seems like we're losing a little bit of because everybody's the Golden Age of the record industry too it was you know because you know now there's condos and and hotels and stuff and everybody ran around the alleys and you knew you knew every little publishing house and you knew where everybody was hanging out after hours and there was just this little small town community mentality in the middle of this big old city and it was ours and it was very special and and everybody was successful and it just had a great vibe to it back then you would have really loved Nashville back I would have and I always felt like even when I got to town that I was an old soul that I kind of missed my place in life because I always loved the older stuff more you know always wanted to gravitate back to all that and still find a lot of passion in all the old music how far back and and that old catalog I mean as far as traditional country music do you go back and experience some of that and try to educate yourself on some of the really old cats like Ray Price even absolutely I mean that was the first thing I did when I fell in love with country music you know when I was 17 when I got back from Nashville to New York and I was going to college in New York I started at the Carter family and Jimmy Rogers and went forward cool like and it's such a fun time to in your life like that 18 19 20 years old that's such a fun time to discover something because you're so passionate about it and you feel like you're not an adult but you feel like you're an adult so you're like this is my music like I'm studying this you know and um I fell in love with a lot of the older traditional country music that's what I really loved like Willie Nelson is one of my all-time favorites and I know he's not the old old but even Eddie Arnold and that stuff like I loved that and I loved Bob bills I love Western swing like that is so fun to listen to um and talk about great musicians oh my gosh it's incredible and the fact that the Texas Playboys is still going like in different iterations is so interesting and cool too it's like um the Preservation Hall Jazz Band like it's an institution you know it's kind of like sleep at the wheel I mean they're they're an institution yeah and I love all that old stuff you know Texas what's your favorite what's your favorite traditional country you know I I'm Merle Haggard had a huge effect on me but but I you know I really gravitated more toward the baritone singers uh Keith Whitley was big for me uh and a little bit of Hank Jr but when George Strait came out in the early 80s I mean it changed my world because he had a lot of that Texas influence in his music but he was for his time and place he was a little bit more slick and Polished sounding than what a lot of people really thought he was and and I didn't realize till later that the area that I grew up in and what we call the Arcola Tex area which is Arkansas Texas Louisiana and Oklahoma where it comes together that whole era uh you know straight wasn't a platinum selling record for years he was kind of known as a regional artist but he had a huge impact on me but my mind go back as far as Glen Campbell and Charlie Pride and all the way back in talk about polish with Charlie Pride I loved him he was such a sweet man I got to know him and his family over the years he was always very gracious you know broke my heart when he passed away what a class I mean you can only imagine how much Elegance in class because how much Elegance in class we saw that he had but the ground that he broke like the barriers that he broke imagine really the true Elegance in class that he that he must have had in order to I would have to fight through some things and I've heard some stories that you know Ferlin Husky was not uh very nice in that regard but at some point he fell in love with with Charlie Pride and really in Gray she did and that was his Blessing on Charlie Pride was one of the things that opened the whole country format up to him but Charlie handled everything with so much class and dignity and you look at where we're at now I mean it's it's not only brought it's broadened up for everybody across the board and he was such a groundbreaker oh it's amazing yeah that's so that is so cool that you got to know him a little bit I did my fan club parties in the early 90s it was just so cool wow you know and I remember just hearing those old songs I I told people when I was little you know obviously there was no social media and everything there's pictures of me and cowboy boots with a plastic guitar and a cowboy hat on and my mother was tell everybody that I said I sang like Charlie Pride and I looked like Glenn Campbell I love it treat when early on like you said in the early 80s when he was still a regional artist did he still have that knack for choosing great songs Oh without a doubt yeah I mean some of that early stuff I still love some of the early records more than anything but he always did his own his own thing I mean he was he loved hardcore country music he didn't really kind of start getting um I'd say pop until uh um the uh what's the Pure Country when Pure Country that whole soundtrack changed everything it was like it was like a two-hour George Strait video right it changed his career it put him into the stratosphere that's really the thing that catapulted him at that particular time but I mean but it's been different for everybody I mean you never know what's going to be that Marquee thing that changes your life you know I remember hearing stories about uh you know uh Willie Nelson the whole Outlaw movement called they you know it was a conversation and they said y'all got to get to Texas there's something happening here in Austin and it broke open and it changed the lives of you know guys like Hank Williams Jr and Willie Nelson I mean it changed the whole landscape but it's it's been different for everybody along the way you just never know what that little Spark's going to be that makes it happen you know that it could be that little magic thing that happens that changes your freaking life and puts you in that next level and then you're an overnight success after you've got you know years and years and years of yeah playing your fingers till they bleed and all of those late nights and sleepless nights when you can't turn the music in your head off that people that don't have no they don't they don't understand it I mean it's but I think it's cool you also mentioned um that you knew George Jones and he was kind of a mentor to you just for me selfishly can you tell me like how you met at him and what he was like George was the first big tour that I was on so I went out with him in 92 and uh George I was with your first record my first single released in August of 1991 uh the album dropped uh later I think I think sticks sticks and stones yeah went number one in January of 92 and then I wound up out touring with Jones so there was a rotation Chestnut was on some of them John Anderson was on a lot of them and we would go out there and do rocking chair with Jones at the end of the night and he was he was kind of like a sweet old Granddad to us at that point he was but I I mean he still had fire George could go out there and light that crowd up I mean I it was amazing how old was he at that point let's see George died in his 82-83 and that was about 2014. oh man he had to be in his mid 60s mid 60s early 70s awesome somebody was but he uh he embraced all of us more so than I think any of the other Legacy artists really did he uh he he was but George was George had a big time even in his later stages really well the things that broke my heart I loved him so much I uh I got to uh I got to do a charity record with him uh so I was I went in the studio with George and it was George was probably 80 at the time it was just not long before we passed away and he couldn't hear and he couldn't read the lyric and and I was having to show him how to sing the parts and he was upset and he was he was he hugged my neck and he was so he was thanking me and I'm like he was like I remember when I used to be able to do this season he said I just appreciate you helping me I mean he was just so gracious and it broke my heart because I knew at that point that it was close it was close yeah because he just couldn't do it anymore and it was really sad to see I know it was a special moment for me I'm gonna cry I got to be there yeah it's so cool and you got to give something back to him after all he'd given to you even that little gesture meant so much to him you know you know and hopefully everybody gets to find a little piece of music like that and you always say you don't want to meet your Heroes because they'll disappoint you that's not always the case yeah no I and I find that like the real heroes like are are the most humble like I've gotten to work with Vince Gill a couple times and he's just the most like his ratio of talent to humility same with Mac mcanally like it's they're both at the top you know I think as you get older too and and as you've had success and you're able to look back down the road um you realize how special it is and how few people actually get to live in that space yeah and I I it's easier to take all that stuff for granted when you're young and cocky yeah but the more life you live the the more you realize that's just a small percentage of people who get to do what we do at this level and it's it's not all merit-based it's not all Talent based like there's some magic to it there's some like you said lightning that strikes that changes your life and um so it does I can imagine that it does bring a lot of gratitude and humility and also like um you know I I have a couple Young Artists now that I really try to go out of my way to support and um and I still consider myself a brand new artist but I I love lifting up other artists I always have just because I'm I'm such a fan of talent Zach is like that too and Jimmy Buffett who's another one of my mentors um and you know I remember someone saying oh thank you so much you know thanking me and and you know I'll I'll repay you and whatever and I was like I'm passing the beta like so many people have given me so many opportunities and like I can't wait to get to a place in my career where I can get like even reach a handout part about it it's so cool like to be able to reach a handout and even give a tiny opportunity at the place I am in my career which hopefully I get a lot farther but um to be able to help someone else up even just a little bit because I know what it meant to me and then to have the mentorship of people who I worship and admire and adore and have listened to Forever um like it's just such a validating it's just such a gift and it really does make you want to be better and take advantage and then help other people too without a doubt and people ask me this question a lot and it's a really hard thing to answer because as you're touring you see the back of a venue you really don't I mean it's you kind of you kind of get trapped in your own bubble what's uh what's the coolest place you played I mean a lot of times venue yeah um probably Fenway Park we've gotten to play there a few times is there a history there for you from coming from the north not really because you know the Red Sox were our enemies you know from where I grew up yeah my husband's from Rhode Island and so Red Sox and Fenway is Iconic to him but it's just such an iconic uh venue and and we've also played um Wrigley Field in Chicago a few times which is pretty iconic um Hollywood Bowl um I mean those are pretty those are pretty iconic all three of those that we've gotten to play but there are certain cities that I love like I Love Charleston South Carolina I love Seattle um I always I love nature so anytime we go to a beautiful city or a city on the water or something I get really excited um but in terms of venues those those iconic ballparks are probably up there just because of the history you know what's next on the list of to Do's what's the next thing for you what do you want what what haven't you done that you want gosh so many um well in terms of venue while we're talking about venues it is a dream of mine to play Red Rocks one day I would love to play at Red Rocks um I I've heard it's incredible and it's so beautiful I've never even been to a show there so I really really want it that's on my bucket list um in terms of like goals I have for my career I my main goal is to just get better at my crafts all the time be a better singer better songwriter better musician better band member you know all of those that that's really to me what you can control in this industry like everything else all the other goals to have a number one or to have a Grammy or try this those are great goals to have but there's no real like step by there's no way to control all that and attain it I like focusing on being the best artist and most well-rounded musician I can be because I feel like in the long run to your point like in decades decades to come like what I'm gonna really want to look back on is that I gave my all to my craft and to the audiences that I had and built that like I've learned from Jimmy and Zach to really super serve the fans that you have and just build out in shows and on the road because ultimately like those are the that's the career that you're going to have in 30 or 40 years like once you're past your commercial Peak once you're past the awards once you're past this like can you go play shows and connect with people um and so that's what I'm really trying to build ultimately um and you know I look up to you and people like you who who have that and do that like that's what I want to be doing when I'm in my 50s and 60s and 70s and hopefully Beyond I mean look at Willie Nelson but like what's better than that like you have a job in music your whole life like what could be better nothing yeah nothing there's nothing else that beats it how does social media fit into all this for you um social media is a great tool it took me a while to come to peace with it and to understand how I could put my music and my authentic self across on it because like all other kinds of media what's the most popular on social media is unfortunately kind of like the lowest common denominator of humanity and so you kind of have to you know you really have to reconcile that of like am I willing you know who am I what brand am I trying to put across you know brand is a word that's used a lot now um how do I connect with people but am I willing to sell my soul for this many followers or this many likes or this many I mean to me I'm not because I know the kind of career that I'm trying to build and the kind of credibility and brand that I'm trying to build and I know there's an audience for that and maybe it's not the biggest audience in the world you know maybe it's not millions and tens of millions of people but that's totally fine with me I'd much rather have a music career um and be respected as a musician than be an influencer like that's just understand that I'm not in the business of that and I think every artist now really has to ask themselves that and like really know who they are and some artists um are able to kind of skate the line and do both which is great you know they have that kind of personality or they have kind of a schtick that works for them um that just happens to be really popular on um platforms like Tick Tock or instagramers or um what have you and more power to them because I think if you have a brand like that you should lean into it but I think you really have to know who you are and what you're about and it's not going to work if you're trying to be something you're not there's so many people who are so good at being so outlandish on social media like you're never going to compete with them I've had I've had several Young tick-tockers on and we're trying to understand and and make comparisons and contrast between what these young kids are doing when they're building a tick tock following and they might have four seven ten million followers and and doing and having to post things on a regular basis but they're producing and they're riding and they're doing all these things and they're their own camera person all that and then they get this visibility up and the record labels start courting them and then they make that transition some of them make it well some of them don't and some of them have decided that's not where they want to go so it's a complete different mindset it is but being somebody that's chasing the path that you're chasing I don't really see where a lot of that fits fits into your psyche about that because it would be a waste of time in a lot of regards that doesn't mean that you look down on any of it I'm just saying you're I mean your time is better spent perfecting your craft it is and and um I think that that is something that time will tell because uh you know a lot of especially people who are on your team who support you that's hard for them to hear because they see these people getting this you know quick dangling carrot and they see people this having this many followers and um it can be distracting like it can be tempting but I think that's why it's really important to know who you are what you're about and what you're trying to accomplish and then to me it becomes really fun because you can design content that's around your music that's really creative and hopefully compelling at least to your audience and to people who will potentially be your fans and I love doing that like I love creating visual content I love editing I love music videos I love capturing live performances um I love sharing my lyrics I love conversations like this like these are all things that you can share on social media that there's an audience for um it just might not be you know the most commercial most mainstream most viral most splashy audience um but gosh like I said I'd rather have a music career um but that's just me you know I I think everybody needs to reconcile that for themselves in this day and age and I think it's really hard because people grow up seeing this glorification of this certain type of Fame and this certain image and it's really misleading for a lot of young people about like what actually makes you happy in life and what should actually we should be modeling ourselves after and um and I also just think the amount of content and and visual content especially that you're expected to put out as an artist is exhausting and really distracting and and it's tempting because you want obviously you want to grind you want to work hard you want to get everything out there that you can to get as many ears on your music as possible but there is a lot of diminishing returns with creativity as you would know um and so gosh it's a balance it's a weird time you seem like you have a very good head on your shoulders thank you I have a I really appreciate your passion I mean I can tell by the way you talk about everything and it's very sincere and I'm glad to know that there's still some of us out there it's been an honor for me to be here and speak to you and um gosh I've been listening to your music since I've been listening to country music when I was a late teenager I hope we get a chance to share the stage together at some point I've never really had a chance to do a lot of shows with Zach over the years but I look forward to our past Crossing again much much continued success thank you thank you so much thanks for having me Caroline Jones he plays what I want to do play you something that I was working on the other day but I also wanted you to teach me something okay so what should we do first people do you want to do the open on this matter it don't matter I can do that yeah let me tune online so I don't ruin your eyes foreign [Music] [Music] yeah so this was made to be purchased taken off the shelf walked on stage plug it in okay so Jason really figured Jason and Martin really figured out I've not changed the thing about it I've seen him actually play one of these blocks I was like holy [ __ ] that sounds amazing I've got to have one all right what you want to learn um what do you want to teach me I don't know anything what's Trace long again hard one a hard one yeah [Music] okay [Music] yeah I love that foreign [Music] [Music] all right that takes me to Zac Brown um my favorite song is it the eggs well this is my key but um just be covered in my show videos foreign [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music]